Donald S. Lopez Jr. on Buddhism (Ep. 260)
Hello, everyone.
大家好。
Welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
欢迎回到与泰勒对话。
Today, I am very excited to be chatting with Donald S.
今天，我很高兴能与唐纳德·S.
Lopez Jr. I think of Donald as the West’s leading expert on Buddhism.
小洛佩兹：我认为唐纳德是西方顶尖的佛教专家。
He’s a professor at the University of Michigan, the author of many, many books on Buddhism, which I think I’ve read all of.
他是密歇根大学的教授，是很多很多佛教书籍的作者，我想我已经读完了所有这些书籍。
He’s one of the editors of The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism, and he has a new book out this year, called The Buddha: Biography of a Myth.
他是《普林斯顿佛教词典》的编辑之一，今年出版了一本新书，名为《佛陀：神话传记》。
Donald, welcome.
唐纳德，欢迎。
Thanks for inviting me.
谢谢你邀请我。
Very happy to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
What sets the limits of what the Buddha does know and does not know in Buddhist theology?
佛教神学中佛陀所知道和不知道的界限是什么？
There is no limit.
没有限制。
The Buddha is omniscient.
佛陀是无所不知的。
The Buddha knows all of the past, all of the present, and all of the future.
佛知道一切过去、一切现在、一切未来。
He can read the minds of every being in the universe, and so, his omniscience includes everything.
他能读懂宇宙中一切众生的心思，所以他的无所不知无所不包。
He knows all of our past karma, all of that.
他知道我们过去所有的业力，所有这些。
And he knows all of the future Buddhas.
又知未来一切诸佛。
He knows that the future Buddhas are coming, and he knows them by name, although the next one, whose name is Maitreya, will not appear in our world, according to Buddhist time, for about six billion years.
他知道未来诸佛即将来临，而且他知道他们的名字，尽管下一位佛陀的名字叫弥勒，根据佛教时间，大约有六十亿年不会出现在我们的世界。
It’s going to be a while.
这还需要一段时间。
What’s the source for the six-billion-years measure?
六十亿年测量的来源是什么？
Buddhists have a very complicated system of time in which they measure things in kalpas, in aeons, and we’ve been able to figure out how those numbers compute into what we would recognize.
佛教徒有一个非常复杂的时间系统，他们用劫、劫来衡量事物，我们已经能够弄清楚这些数字是如何计算成我们所认识的。
It’s multiplications by time.
这是乘以时间。
Buddhists have very long lifetimes in heaven, very long lifetimes in hell.
佛教徒在天堂有很长的寿命，在地狱也有很长的寿命。
Our lifespan, according to the Buddhist theory, is actually diminishing.
根据佛教理论，我们的寿命实际上正在缩短。
From 100 years, it’ll eventually get down to 10, go back up to 80,000, and when it gets to 80,000 again, the next Buddha will appear.
从100年开始，最后会降到10年，再回到8万年，再到8万年，下一个佛就会出现。
That number is from the Pali Canon?
这个数字来自巴利文经典？
Those numbers are from the Pali Canon and also from the Sanskrit.
这些数字来自巴利文经典和梵文。
There’s not much difference between the two canons on those questions.
在这些问题上，两个标准之间没有太大区别。
They’re not contested?
他们没有争议吗？
Obviously, we don’t know the future.
显然，我们不知道未来。
Both those distant futures and distant past are things that are unknown to us, so they’re not contested within the tradition itself.
那些遥远的未来和遥远的过去都是我们未知的事情，所以它们在传统本身中没有争议。
That’s correct, yes.
没错，是的。
Within Islam, within Christianity, there are things which are contested, of course.
当然，在伊斯兰教内部，在基督教内部，有些事情是有争议的。
What’s the best way of thinking about what it is in Buddhism that is contested?
思考佛教中存在争议的内容的最佳方式是什么？
For scholars, it’s when the Buddha lived.
对于学者来说，那是佛陀在世的时候。
We don’t know with any precision the year of his death.
我们不知道他去世的确切年份。
So, in Buddhism, time is measured from the time of his death instead of the time of his birth.
所以，在佛教中，时间是从他死亡的时间而不是他出生的时间开始计算的。
Sometimes we see Buddhist writings in which they have after the number AN, After Nirvana.
有时我们会看到佛教著作中的数字“AN”之后，即“涅槃之后”。
According to the Theravada tradition, the Buddha passed into Nirvana in 544 BCE.
根据南传佛教传统，佛陀于公元前 544 年涅槃。
When I have to write the death date of the Buddha, most scholars in the field will put something like “400 BCE plus or minus 50.” That’s an incredibly large range of time.
当我必须写下佛陀的圆寂日期时，该领域的大多数学者都会写“公元前 400 年正负 50”之类的内容。这是一个非常大的时间范围。
The Buddhist traditions themselves, in Chinese Buddhism, we have a completely different number, so there’s really no consensus at all on the death of the Buddha’s life.
佛教传统本身，在汉传佛教中，我们有完全不同的数字，所以对于佛陀生命的灭亡，实际上没有任何共识。
There’s one text that says he lived till he was 80.
有一篇文章说他活到了80岁。
That’s all we’ve got.
这就是我们所拥有的一切。
On how the Buddha looked and lived
关于佛陀的相貌和生活
Did the Buddha have 32 marks on him?
佛身上有32相吗？
He had 32 marks.
他得了32分。
That’s right.
这是正确的。
That’s not contested.
这没有争议。
Among those marks is a tongue that could lick behind his ears and cover his face entirely.
在这些痕迹中，有一条舌头可以舔到他的耳朵后面并完全遮住他的脸。
It included a retractable penis.
它包括一个可伸缩的阴茎。
It included more teeth than we have.
它的牙齿比我们的还多。
Some of them are just beautiful things: legs like an antelope, a chest like a lion.
其中一些只是美丽的东西：腿像羚羊，胸膛像狮子。
His arms, it is said, when the Buddha is standing, his hands extend below his knees so he can rub his knees without bending over.
据说，当佛陀站立时，他的双手伸到膝盖以下，这样他就可以在不弯腰的情况下摩擦膝盖。
That gives him a bit of a simian look, very long arms.
这让他看起来有点像猿猴，手臂很长。
Webbed hands or fingers?
有蹼的手还是手指？
Exactly.
确切地。
Webbed fingers and toes.
手指和脚趾有蹼。
We have no reference at all to the Buddha ever swimming, so we don’t know why that is.
我们根本没有提到佛陀曾游泳，所以我们不知道这是为什么。
Art historians have speculated — sometimes when you see Greek and Roman statues from that period — it’s very hard to carve fingers in marble.
艺术史学家推测——“有时当你看到那个时期的希腊和罗马雕像时”——在大理石上雕刻手指是非常困难的。
The fingers will almost always break off in the process.
在此过程中手指几乎总是会折断。
Sometimes you see that the stone has been left between the fingers to preserve the actual fingers.
有时您会看到石头被留在手指之间以保留实际的手指。
I think some people saw this and thought, “Oh, he had webbed fingers and webbed hands.”
我想有些人看到这一点会想，“哦，他有蹼的手指和蹼的手。”
Do we think the Buddha died of dysentery?
我们认为佛陀是死于痢疾吗？
There is a case of something called red flows that he suffered after his last meal.
有一个案例是他在上一顿饭后出现了一种叫做红色流的情况。
He was served by a low-caste blacksmith a dish that, according to some, was vegetarian, according to others, was pork.
一位低种姓铁匠给他端来了一道菜，根据一些人的说法，这是素食，根据另一些人的说法，是猪肉。
He had some pain there, almost to the point of death, it says.
据称，他那里有些疼痛，几乎快要死了。
Then he went on and walked some distance to the place where he laid down on his right side and gave teachings for almost an entire night, and there’s no mention of any pain or any suffering then, but what we call the dysentery attack does appear in one account of his passing.
然后他继续走了一段距离，到了他右侧躺下的地方，并传法了几乎一整夜，当时没有提到任何疼痛或任何痛苦，但我们所说的痢疾发作确实出现在关于他圆寂的记载中。
Theologically, as you know, there are some very particular ways that Christians make sense of the death of Christ.
正如你所知，从神学角度来说，基督徒有一些非常特殊的方式来理解基督的死。
How is it that Buddhists make sense of the death of Buddha?
佛教徒如何理解佛陀的灭亡？
You’ve told us he knew everything.
你告诉我们他什么都知道。
Presumably, he knew he would get dysentery from the food, and he would die.
想必他知道自己会因为食物而染上痢疾，然后就会死去。
Is there an account of the broader meaning of that?
有没有对其更广泛含义的解释？
Or it’s just stuff that happened?
或者这只是发生过的事情？
What they say is that the most important meals that a Buddha has is the meal before his enlightenment and the meal before his passage into nirvana.
他们说佛陀最重要的一餐是成道前的一餐和涅槃前的一餐。
These are special meals, and the person who gives those meals is blessed by the tradition for these two important meals.
这些都是特殊的膳食，提供这些膳食的人受到这两顿重要膳食的传统的祝福。
The gods infuse special powers into those two meals.
众神在这两顿饭中注入了特殊的力量。
The dysentery attack is explained by the tradition as just this very powerful meal.
传统上将痢疾发作解释为这顿非常有力的饭菜。
He actually told his host, “Give this to me and bury the rest.
他实际上告诉他的主人：“把这个给我，然后埋掉剩下的。
The other monks can’t eat this.”
其他修士不能吃这个。”
The dysentery attack is the proximate cause of his death.
痢疾发作是他死亡的直接原因。
However, before he died, he was meditating in the woods with his cousin and attendant, Ananda.
然而，在他去世之前，他正在树林里与他的表弟兼侍者阿难一起冥想。
He said, “Ananda, if asked to do so, a Buddha can live for an aeon or till the end of an aeon.” Ananda said something like, “Oh, that’s interesting.” Later, he said the same thing, and Ananda said, “That’s nice.” Finally, he said one more time, “A Buddha can live till the end of an aeon if asked to do so,” and Ananda says, “Whatever.”
言：“阿难，若有求，佛能住劫，或住劫尽。”阿难说：“噢，这很有趣。”后来他又说了同样的话，阿难说：“那就好。”最后，他又说了一次：“若有要求，佛陀可以活到劫后。”阿难说：“随便吧。”
At that point, there was an earthquake, and Ananda arose from meditation.
就在这时，发生了地震，阿难从禅定中醒来。
“What does the earthquake mean?” The Buddha said, “This means that I have relinquished my life force.
“地震意味着什么？”佛言：“这是我舍弃生命力。
I will die in three months’ time.” Ananda said, “Please don’t do that.
三个月后我就会死。”阿难说：“请不要这样做。
Please live for an aeon.” The Buddha said, “Too late.
愿你万世长存。”佛陀说：“太晚了。
You had three chances, and that’s passed.” He predicted his death at that point, and then the dysentery attack and that final meal come sometime after that scene.
你本来有三次机会，但都过去了。”他在那一刻预言了自己的死亡，然后在那个场景之后的某个时间，痢疾发作和最后一顿饭发生了。
This is something I find puzzling in Buddhist theology.
这是佛教神学中令我感到困惑的地方。
Maybe you can clear it up for me.
也许你可以帮我解决这个问题。
The Buddha says he can live for an aeon if asked to, but who’s the asker?
佛陀说，如果请求的话，他可以活劫，但是请求者是谁呢？
Now, the asker could be God, but there’s something also atheistic, you might say, about some parts of Buddhist theology.
现在，提问者可能是上帝，但你可能会说，佛教神学的某些部分也有一些无神论的东西。
So, where is the role for the sacred?
那么，圣人的作用在哪里呢？
How does it relate to, apparently, supernatural things that can happen?
显然，它与可能发生的超自然事物有何关系？
Where do the special powers come from?
特殊权力从何而来？
First of all, there is no god in Buddhism, of course.
首先，佛教当然没有神。
There’s no creator deity.
没有造物主神。
There’s no one to ask him to stay.
没有人要求他留下来。
The special powers come from the fact that the Buddha is someone.
特殊的力量来自于佛陀是某人的事实。
A Buddha and the Buddha is someone who perfected himself over billions of years, many, many, many lifetimes.
佛陀和佛陀是经过亿万年、许多、许多、许多生世而完善自己的人。
He practiced various virtues.
他实践了各种美德。
They’re enumerated as six or ten.
他们被列举为六个或十个。
The six are giving, ethics, patience, effort, concentration, and wisdom.
六者是布施、持戒、忍辱、精进、定力、智慧。
By accumulating those powers over all those lifetimes, he was able to do something that others cannot do.
通过一生的积累，他能够做到别人做不到的事情。
He achieved Buddhahood at a time when there was no Buddha and no Buddhism in the world.
他是在世间无佛、无佛教的时候成佛的。
He discovered the path on his own.
他自己发现了这条路。
This is what distinguishes the Buddha from the rest of us.
这就是佛陀与我们其他人的区别。
The Buddha finds enlightenment through his own efforts over many lifetimes, and then he teaches us how to do it.
佛陀通过自己多世的努力找到了证悟，然后他教导我们如何去做。
We have many cases of people achieving nirvana just by hearing a single lecture by the Buddha during his own time.
我们有很多例子，人们仅仅听了佛陀在世时的一次开示就获得了涅槃。
It really is the perfection over many lifetimes, having promised to become a Buddha aeons ago, and then finally perfecting himself, whenever that was.
这确实是多生多世的圆满，在亿劫之前就许诺要成佛，然后最终圆满自己，无论何时。
On reincarnation, hell, sacrifice, and hungry ghosts
关于轮回、地狱、祭祀和饿鬼
Who or what is it that drives, say, the cycles of reincarnation?
比方说，谁或什么驱动着轮回的循环？
Is it just a natural process like a chicken hatching from an egg?
这只是一个自然过程，就像鸡从鸡蛋中孵化出来一样吗？
Or there’s something extra in the universe that we might think of as supernatural?
或者宇宙中有什么我们可能认为是超自然的东西？
Well, it’s the law of karma.
嗯，这就是业力法则。
Whether you want to call that supernatural or not is a question, but “karma” in Sanskrit just means action.
你是否愿意称其为超自然是一个问题，但梵文中的“业力”只是行动的意思。
It means that the universe is, in a sense, naturally ethical, that virtuous deeds, as defined, lead to happiness in the future — either tomorrow or a hundred lifetimes from now — and negative deeds, non-virtuous deeds, lead to suffering.
这意味着宇宙在某种意义上是自然道德的，按照定义，善行会在未来带来幸福——“要么是明天，要么是一百世之后”——而恶行、不善行会导致痛苦。
This is the way that the Buddhists, without a god, can explain the suffering of the virtuous and the fact that the evil flourish sometimes.
这就是佛教徒在没有神明的情况下，可以解释善人的痛苦和邪恶有时盛行的事实。
It’s all karma.
这都是业力。
As a result of that karma, we are reborn.
由于这种业力，我们获得了重生。
There’s no beginning to the cycle of rebirth.
重生的循环没有开始。
We’ve all been reborn a bazillion times, and we will be reborn forever until we find the path out, which is what the Buddha teaches.
我们都已经重生了无数次，而且我们将永远重生，直到我们找到出路，这就是佛陀所教导的。
The Buddhists have very specific places where we can be reborn.
佛教徒有非常具体的我们可以投生的地方。
We can be a god, which is a Mount Olympus kind of god, not a creator deity.
我们可以成为神，这是奥林匹斯山的神，而不是造物主神。
We can be a demigod.
我们可以成为半神。
These have certain powers.
这些人有一定的权力。
We can be a human, we can be an animal, we can be a ghost, and we can be in hell.
我们可以是人，可以是动物，可以是鬼，也可以是地狱。
The Buddhists have a very elaborate system of hells: eight hot hells, eight cold hells, various trifling hells.
佛教徒有一套非常复杂的地狱体系：八热地狱、八冷地狱、各种小地狱。
The hells are quite horrific and described in great detail.
地狱非常可怕，描述也很详细。
Fire is a central theme in Buddhism, right?
火是佛教的中心主题，对吗？
Well, there are hot hells, and there are also cold hells.
嗯，有热地狱，也有冷地狱。
Fire comes up, really, in the idea of nirvana.
事实上，火是在涅槃的观念中产生的。
Where we see the fire, I think most importantly, philosophically, is the idea of where did the Buddha go when he died?
我认为最重要的是，从哲学角度来说，我们看到火的地方是佛陀死后去了哪里？
He was not reborn again.
他没有重生。
They say it’s really just like a flame going out, that is, the flame ends.
他们说这真的就像火焰熄灭一样，也就是说，火焰结束了。
Where did the fire go?
火到哪里去了？
Nowhere, that is, the wood that was producing the flame is all burned up, and you just end.
没有任何地方，也就是说，产生火焰的木头都被烧毁了，你就结束了。
Nirvana is not a place.
涅槃不是一个地方。
It’s a state of extinction or what the Buddhists call cessation.
这是一种灭尽的状态，或者佛教徒所说的灭尽。
What role does blood sacrifice play in Buddhism?
血祭在佛教中扮演什么角色？
Well, it’s not supposed to perform any role.
好吧，它不应该发挥任何作用。
There’s no blood sacrifice in Buddhism.
佛教中没有血祭。
No blood sacrifice.
没有流血牺牲。
How about wrathful deities?
愤怒的诸神又如何呢？
Wrathful deities — there’re a lot, yes.
愤怒本尊 —— 有很多，是的。
Then we’re back to supernatural.
然后我们又回到了超自然现象。
Again, this gets to my central confusion.
这再次引起了我的困惑。
It’s atheistic, but there’s some other set of principles in the universe that generate wrathful deities, right?
这是无神论，但宇宙中还有其他一些原则可以产生愤怒的本尊，对吗？
Wrathful deities are beings who were humans in one lifetime, animals in another, and born as wrathful deities in another lifetime.
愤怒本尊是指前世为人、前世为动物、另一世为愤怒本尊的众生。
Everyone is in the cycle of rebirth.
每个人都处于轮回之中。
We’ve all been wrathful deities in the past.
我们过去都是愤怒天尊。
We’ll be wrathful deities in the future unless we get out soon.
如果我们不尽快出去的话，我们将来就会成为愤怒的天神。
It’s this universe of strange beings, all taking turns, shape-shifting from one lifetime to the next, and it goes on forever until we find the way out.
这是一个充满奇怪生物的宇宙，所有生物都在轮流，从前世到下世不断变形，这种情况永远持续下去，直到我们找到出路。
Are they like ghosts at all — the wrathful deities?
他们到底像鬼魂吗——愤怒的本尊？
There’s a whole separate category of ghosts.
鬼魂有一个完全独立的类别。
The ghosts are often called — if we look at the Chinese translation — hungry ghosts.
鬼通常被称为“——如果我们看中文翻译的话”——“饿鬼”。
The ghosts are beings who suffer from hunger and thirst.
鬼是指受饥渴之苦的众生。
They are depicted as having distended bellies.
他们被描绘成腹部肿胀。
They have these horrible sufferings that when they drink water, it turns into molten lead.
他们承受着可怕的痛苦，当他们喝水时，水会变成熔化的铅。
They’ll eat solid food — it turns into an arrow or a spear.
他们会吃固体食物——它会变成箭或矛。
Constantly seeking food, constantly being frustrated, and they appear a lot in Buddhist text.
不断地寻求食物，不断地受挫，这些在佛经中经常出现。
One of the jobs of Buddhist monks and nuns is to feed the hungry ghosts.
佛教僧尼的工作之一就是喂养饿鬼。
On Western (mis)conceptions of Buddhism
论西方对佛教的（错误）观念
Is it a fundamental misconception to think of Buddhism as a peaceful religion?
将佛教视为和平宗教是一种根本性的误解吗？
The peaceful religion part is something I think has been made much of, really, since the 19th century.
我认为自 19 世纪以来，和平宗教部分确实受到了重视。
But we have a lot of evidence of Buddhists going to war, of Buddhist monks serving as chaplains on the battlefield, even in the Second World War.
但我们有很多证据表明佛教徒参战，佛教僧侣在战场上担任牧师，甚至在第二次世界大战中也是如此。
Buddhism is a religion of peace in the sense that the Buddha really talked against violence, but we have, throughout Buddhist history, all sorts of Buddhist armies, Buddhist wars, and Buddhists killing each other and killing their enemies.
佛教是一个和平的宗教，因为佛陀确实反对暴力，但在整个佛教历史中，我们有各种各样的佛教军队，佛教战争，以及佛教徒互相残杀和杀害他们的敌人。
The Western conception of Buddhism — that starts to be built up in the 19th century?
西方的佛教观念——19世纪开始建立的？
Is that the right way to think about it?
这是正确的思考方式吗？
That’s correct, yes.
没错，是的。
Basically, into the 19th century, Europeans were categorizing the religions of the world as just four, the four nations.
基本上，进入 19 世纪，欧洲人将世界上的宗教分为四个，四个民族。
There were Christians, there were Jews, there were Muslims, and there were idolaters.
有基督徒，有犹太人，有穆斯林，还有偶像崇拜者。
Buddhists were idolaters.
佛教徒是偶像崇拜者。
Basically, the study of religion since the 19th century has been taking those idolaters and giving them their own religions, each one ending in -ism.
基本上，自19世纪以来的宗教研究一直在研究那些偶像崇拜者，并赋予他们自己的宗教，每一种宗教都以主义结尾。
Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Taoism, Confucianism.
佛教、印度教、耆那教、道教、儒教。
It’s really in the 19th century when we start getting Buddhist texts arriving in Europe via the British in India, and the study of Sanskrit, which is then shown to have cognates with Latin and Greek.
实际上是在 19 世纪，我们开始通过印度的英国人将佛教文献传入欧洲，并开始研究梵文，后来发现梵文与拉丁语和希腊语同源。
This Sanskrit craze sweeps Europe, and Buddhist texts become very important, primarily to French and British intellectuals, but also in Germany.
这股梵文热潮席卷了欧洲，佛教经典变得非常重要，主要是对法国和英国的知识分子来说，但在德国也是如此。
Often, they’re atheists, they’re anti-Catholic, and they’re trying to find a religion of reason, which they then demonstrate or portray Buddhism as being.
通常，他们是无神论者，他们是反天主教的，他们试图找到一种理性的宗教，然后他们展示或描绘佛教的存在。
We have a lot of evidence of Buddhists going to war, of Buddhist monks serving as chaplains on the battlefield, even in the Second World War.
我们有很多证据表明佛教徒参战，佛教僧侣在战场上担任牧师，甚至在第二次世界大战中也是如此。
Buddhism is a religion of peace in the sense that the Buddha really talked against violence, but we have, throughout Buddhist history, all sorts of Buddhist armies, Buddhist wars, and Buddhists killing each other and killing their enemies.
佛教是和平的宗教，因为佛陀确实反对暴力，但在整个佛教历史中，我们有各种各样的佛教军队、佛教战争，以及佛教徒互相残杀和杀害敌人。
There’re 18th-century Enlightenment encyclopedias, right?
有 18 世纪启蒙运动百科全书，对吗？
They cover Buddhism, or don’t they?
他们涵盖佛教，不是吗？
Very briefly.
非常简短。
At that time, in the 18th century, we’re basically seeing the reports of missionaries.
当时，在18世纪，我们看到的基本上都是传教士的报道。
Once there are idolaters, then there are missionaries, because the Roman Catholics felt, or Christians feel that the Jews had their chance to accept Jesus as the Messiah.
一旦有偶像崇拜者，就会有传教士，因为罗马天主教徒或基督徒认为犹太人有机会接受耶稣为弥赛亚。
They did not.
他们没有。
Muslims also did not do so.
穆斯林也没有这样做。
But idolaters were heathens.
但偶像崇拜者是异教徒。
They were people of the heath.
他们是荒原的人。
They were just uncultured, uncivilized people who were available to be converted.
他们只是没有文化、没有文明的人，可以改变信仰。
Much of what we know about Buddhism in the 16th, 17th, and early 18th century comes from the reports of Jesuits primarily, in China, in Japan, in Sri Lanka, and in India.
我们对 16、17 世纪和 18 世纪初佛教的了解主要来自中国、日本、斯里兰卡和印度耶稣会士的报告。
There’s plenty of colonialism at that time, especially in what we now call Sri Lanka.
当时有很多殖民主义，特别是在我们现在所说的斯里兰卡。
You go to Sri Lanka — you could say Buddhism hits you in the face, right?
你去斯里兰卡 —— 你可以说佛教打了你的脸吧？
Yes.
是的。
People just didn’t say much about that?
只是人们对此没有多说什么？
I find that very strange.
我觉得这很奇怪。
The East India Company did not allow missionaries.
东印度公司不允许传教士。
It was only later that they allowed British missionaries to go to Sri Lanka.
后来他们才允许英国传教士前往斯里兰卡。
We find then a lot of scholarship on Sri Lankan Buddhism, some translations of Sinhalese texts.
我们发现了很多关于斯里兰卡佛教的学术成果，以及一些僧伽罗文本的翻译。
It’s only then that the missionaries start to speak against Buddhism.
直到那时，传教士才开始反对佛教。
Up until that time, we’re really looking at Buddhism .
直到那时，我们才真正关注佛教。
.
。
.
。
The Europeans — the British, the French — were seeing Buddhism as a classical religion.
欧洲人——英国人、法国人——将佛教视为一种古典宗教。
When Vasco da Gama landed on the shore of India in 1498, Buddhism was essentially dead on the subcontinent.
1498 年，当瓦斯科·达·伽马 (Vasco da Gama) 登陆印度海岸时，佛教在次大陆基本上已经消亡。
It was just temples and ruins, caves overgrown, broken statues.
这里只有寺庙和废墟、杂草丛生的洞穴、破碎的雕像。
They felt they’d found a new classical civilization, and it had a language that was related to Greek and Latin.
他们觉得自己发现了一种新的古典文明，它有一种与希腊语和拉丁语相关的语言。
Therefore, this was something that really excited them.
所以，这才是真正令他们兴奋的事情。
There was some sort of a belief that a new enlightenment was going to take place from the discovery of this new language and civilization.
人们相信，这种新语言和文明的发现将会带来新的启蒙。
They really thought that they understood Buddhism, that the lost Buddhism of India and all the Buddhisms all around Asia were just mere reflections of that, that they’d been polluted with local beliefs in China and Tibet.
他们真的认为他们了解佛教，印度失传的佛教和亚洲各地的所有佛教都只是佛教的反映，他们被中国和西藏当地的信仰污染了。
It was something that the Europeans owned, and that’s where, really, the study of Buddhism as an academic field began in the West.
这是欧洲人所拥有的东西，这实际上是西方佛教作为一个学术领域的研究开始的地方。
Now, when I read popular literature today, I see this common trope, some notion of what’s called an axial age.
现在，当我今天阅读通俗文学时，我看到了这个常见的比喻，即轴心时代的一些概念。
That there was Buddha, there was Socrates, there was Confucius, Zoroaster.
有佛陀，有苏格拉底，有孔子，有琐罗亚斯德。
You could add in Homer, Jeremiah.
你可以加上荷马、耶利米。
The list varies.
该列表有所不同。
Supposedly, these people are all about the same time, and there’s something special about that era where all this religious thought blossoms.
据说，这些人几乎都生活在同一时代，而那个宗教思想盛行的时代有一些特别之处。
Is that fabricated, or do you agree?
这是捏造的还是你同意的？
What do you think?
你怎么认为？
I don’t agree.
我不同意。
I think the dates are just too vague.
我认为日期太模糊了。
We have people who, like Laozi, for example, who is the founder of Taoism, who’s generally put in that period — probably a mythical figure.
我们有一些人，例如老子，他是道教的创始人，通常被认为是那个时期的人——可能是一个神话人物。
We don’t know exactly what Confucius taught, and as we’ve been talking about, we don’t know when the Buddha lived, and we don’t know what he taught.
我们不知道孔子到底教了什么，正如我们一直在谈论的，我们不知道佛陀生活在什么时候，我们也不知道他教了什么。
Especially on the Asian side, it’s difficult to fit those figures into that particular paradigm.
尤其是在亚洲方面，很难将这些数字纳入特定的范式。
But isn’t it odd that the temporal distribution of religions, especially after Islam — which, of course, is much later — but there aren’t that many new ones, right?
但是，宗教的时间分布，尤其是在伊斯兰教之后——当然，这要晚得多——但并没有那么多新的宗教，这不是很奇怪吗？
That’s right.
这是正确的。
There aren’t that many new ones, yes.
是的，没有那么多新的。
So, there’s something about that era where there’s a special clustering?
那么，那个时代有什么特殊的集群吗？
Or that just plays no role in your thought?
或者这在你的想法中不起作用？
It doesn’t.
事实并非如此。
I haven’t studied those Western figures enough to really have a strong opinion about it, but from the Buddhist side, the evidence is just too thin.
我对那些西方人物的研究还不够深入，无法真正对此有强烈的看法，但从佛教的角度来看，证据太薄弱了。
On the Buddha’s child, castes, and visual portrayals of the Buddha
关于佛陀的孩子、种姓和佛陀的视觉描绘
Do we know anything about the children of Buddha?
我们对佛陀的孩子们了解多少吗？
Yes, he had one child.
是的，他有一个孩子。
His name was Rahula.
他的名字叫罗睺罗。
The famous story is that the Buddha, of course, stayed in the palace until he was 30.
著名的故事是，佛陀当然一直在宫殿里呆到30岁。
His father wanted to protect him from the sufferings of the world.
他的父亲想保护他免受世间苦难。
On the night that he escaped, there are two versions of the story: Either his son was born or his son was conceived.
在他逃走的那天晚上，这个故事有两个版本：要么是他的儿子出生了，要么是他的儿子怀上了。
He then left the palace, spent six years practicing asceticism and, eventually, became enlightened.
然后他离开皇宫，苦行六年，最终开悟。
He left at age 29.
他29岁时离开。
When he came back, after he had achieved enlightenment, his wife was very unhappy that he had left.
当他开悟回来时，他的妻子对他的离开感到非常不高兴。
She said at least give your son his birthright because the Buddha was supposed to become the next king.
她说至少给你儿子与生俱来的权利，因为佛陀应该成为下一任国王。
He was supposed to succeed his father on the throne.
他本应继承父亲的王位。
She understood the birthright to be, “Now say that your son can now succeed your father as the king.”
她将与生俱来的权利理解为：“现在说，你的儿子现在可以继承你的父亲成为国王。”
Instead of doing that, the Buddha had his son ordained as a child.
佛陀并没有这样做，而是让他的儿子在孩童时期出家。
So, Rahula was a little monk.
所以，罗睺罗是一个小和尚。
After his grandfather complained about that, the Buddha made a rule, “Okay.
祖父抱怨后，佛陀立下规矩：“好吧。
From now on, the parents must give their permission before a child is ordained.” Rahula became a monk.
从现在起，孩子受戒前必须征得父母的同意。”罗睺罗出家为僧。
He achieved enlightenment and entered nirvana at death.
他获得了开悟，并在死亡时进入涅槃。
So, we have no DNA from the Buddha because he had no descendants other than that one child who never married.
所以，我们没有佛陀的 DNA，因为除了那个从未结婚的孩子之外，他没有任何后代。
What did the Buddha think of the caste system?
佛陀对种姓制度有何看法？
When we look at 19th-century sources, one of the things that attracted Europeans to the Buddha was what they saw as his rejection of caste.
当我们回顾 19 世纪的资料时，吸引欧洲人崇拜佛陀的原因之一就是他们认为佛陀对种姓的拒绝。
It turns out that that is not exactly true.
事实证明这并不完全正确。
There were four castes in ancient India.
古印度有四种种姓。
There were the Brahmins, the priests.
其中有婆罗门、祭司。
There were the Kshatriyas, the warriors.
其中有刹帝利（Kshatriyas），即战士。
There were the Vaishyas, who were the merchants.
有吠舍，他们是商人。
There were the Shudras, who were the laborers, and the Buddha was in that second caste, the warrior caste.
首陀罗是劳动者，佛陀属于第二种姓，即武士种姓。
When the Buddha is in heaven waiting to come to Earth, he decides which caste to join.
当佛陀在天堂等待降临人间时，他决定加入哪个种姓。
It’s said that Buddhas will always join the caste which is most prominent at that time in the world.
据说佛陀总是会加入当时世界上最显赫的种姓。
He chose the warrior caste over the Brahmin caste.
他选择了武士种姓而不是婆罗门种姓。
Now, it turns out that the Buddha’s primary opponents during the course of his teaching career were the Brahmins, were the Hindus.
现在，事实证明，佛陀在其传教生涯中的主要对手是婆罗门，是印度教徒。
To proclaim his superiority over them is a kind of one-upsmanship on his part.
宣称自己比他们优越，对他来说是一种高人一等的表现。
But when we look at who the people were who became monks and nuns, there are cases in the Pali Canon where the caste of the monk or nun is given.
但当我们审视出家为僧尼的人时，巴利藏经中有一些例子给出了僧侣或尼姑的种姓。
When we have that, it turns out that the monks and nuns are overwhelmingly from the Brahmin caste, secondly, from the Buddha’s own caste, and very, very few from the lowest class.
当我们知道这一点时，就会发现，僧尼绝大多数来自婆罗门种姓，其次是佛陀自己的种姓，只有极少数来自最低阶层。
There is a famous monk from that caste, but there’re very few.
该种姓有一位著名的和尚，但数量很少。
The caste system is there.
种姓制度在那里。
He knows it, but caste does not preclude ordination and caste does not preclude enlightenment.
他知道这一点，但种姓并不妨碍受戒，种姓也不妨碍开悟。
If we think about how the Buddha is portrayed in texts such as the Pali and other canons versus how the Buddha is portrayed in Buddhist art, are there systematic differences or it’s a fully consistent picture?
如果我们思考巴利文和其他经典等经典中佛陀的描绘方式与佛教艺术中佛陀的描绘方式，是否存在系统差异，或者是完全一致的画面？
His portrayal in Buddhist art is that figure with the 32 marks on his body.
他在佛教艺术中的形象就是身上有32个标记的人物。
There’re also 80 minor marks, and those are shared by all Buddhist traditions.
还有 80 个小标记，这些是所有佛教传统所共有的。
In terms of depictions of the Buddha himself, it’s fairly consistent.
就佛陀本人的描述而言，这是相当一致的。
It just happens to differ whether it’s a Chinese work or a Japanese work.
只是中国作品和日本作品有所不同。
These are artistic conventions in those nations, but in terms of what the Buddha looks like, it’s pretty similar.
这些是那些国家的艺术惯例，但就佛陀的样子而言，它非常相似。
In terms of theology, it’s broadly similar emphases or different aspects of Buddhism are brought out when it’s visual?
就神学而言，当它在视觉上时，它是大致相似的重点还是佛教的不同方面？
If I think of Christian art, crucifixions are very prominent for centuries.
如果我想到基督教艺术，几个世纪以来，十字架是非常突出的。
Obviously, they’re highly central to the New Testament, but in terms of the space they take up, you could say it’s less.
显然，它们对于新约圣经来说非常重要，但就它们所占的空间而言，你可以说它更少。
It’s interesting that the Buddha is primarily portrayed in one posture.
有趣的是，佛陀主要以一种姿势描绘。
He’s sitting in the lotus posture with his right hand touching the earth.
他结跏趺坐，右手触地。
This is portraying a particular moment in the story.
这描绘了故事中的一个特定时刻。
The Buddha had spent six years practicing asceticism and decided this didn’t work.
佛陀花了六年的时间修行苦行，并认为这行不通。
He had this famous meal and goes down to sit down under the Bodhi Tree.
他吃了这顿有名的饭菜，然后下楼去菩提树下坐下。
At that time, Mara, the Buddha’s devil — although he’s actually in the god realm — is recognizing that this prince is about to find a way to put an end to death, and therefore he attacks him with his army.
这时，佛陀的魔王魔罗——虽然他在神界——意识到这位王子即将找到灭亡的方法，因此他率领军队攻击他。
This is one of the most violent scenes in the life of the Buddha.
这是佛陀一生中最暴力的场景之一。
All these monsters coming, storms, hail storms, fires.
所有这些怪物都来了，风暴，冰雹，火灾。
The Buddha simply is unfazed by this.
佛陀对此并不担心。
He simply touches the earth.
他只是接触了地球。
The Buddha finally is untouched by any of these attacks.
佛陀最终没有受到任何这些攻击的影响。
Mara finally says, “You can’t sit under this tree.
玛拉最后说道：“你不能坐在这棵树下。
This seat under this tree in the middle of this jungle is not yours.
丛林中央这棵树下的这个座位不是你的。
It’s not your property.
这不是你的财产。
You have no right to sit here.
你没有权利坐在这里。
You have to leave.” The Buddha simply touches the earth with his right hand.
你必须离开。”佛陀只是用右手触碰大地。
This is to call the goddess of the earth to witness that he has performed all these virtues over all these lifetimes and therefore has the right to occupy this spot.
这是请大地女神见证他生生世世所行的一切功德，因此有权占据这个位置。
She responds with a little tremor.
她的反应是有点颤抖。
This is called the Bhumisparsha posture, the earth-touching posture.
这称为 Bhumisparsha 姿势，触地姿势。
Mara then leaves at that time.
玛拉随后离开。
The Buddha then meditates all night and becomes a Buddha at dawn.
然后佛陀彻夜禅修，黎明时分成佛。
When we see statues of the Buddha seated, it’s almost always in that position.
当我们看到佛陀坐像时，它几乎总是处于这个位置。
When he’s standing, he’s standing up, often teaching the dharma with his right hand raised.
当他站着的时候，他就站着，常常举起右手说法。
For the Buddha himself, it’s fairly consistent in terms of the posture and the story behind it.
对于佛陀本人来说，无论是姿势还是背后的故事都是相当一致的。
On Buddhism as an oral religion
论佛教作为一种口头宗教
Is it correct to think of Buddhism as primarily an ideology of the oral rather than written?
将佛教视为主要是口头而非书面的意识形态是否正确？
This is also true, in many ways, of Hinduism, so this is really a fact about India.
印度教在很多方面也是如此，所以这确实是印度的一个事实。
We know that the Vedas were probably composed maybe around 1500 BCE, the sacred texts of Hinduism.
我们知道吠陀经可能是在公元前 1500 年左右创作的，是印度教的神圣文本。
They were not written down for centuries.
几个世纪以来它们都没有被记录下来。
They were memorized by Brahmin priests.
它们被婆罗门祭司记住。
They actually had very sophisticated mnemonics.
他们实际上有非常复杂的记忆术。
They literally could recite the Vedas backwards and forwards, every even syllable, every odd syllable.
他们确实可以前后背诵吠陀经，每个偶数音节，每个奇数音节。
We know when they were finally committed to writing centuries later that we have something that’s very accurate in what was done so far before.
我们知道，当他们在几个世纪后最终致力于写作时，我们得到了一些与迄今为止所做的事情非常准确的东西。
Buddhism was also this oral culture.
佛教也是这种口头文化。
After the Buddha died, there was a council of monks that gathered in a cave.
佛陀灭度后，有一群比丘聚集在一个山洞里。
According to the story, two monks recited everything the Buddha taught.
根据这个故事，有两个和尚背诵了佛陀教导的一切。
One recited the monastic code, and one recited the sutras.
一位念经，一位念经。
The monks sat there and memorized everything.
僧侣们坐在那里，记住了一切。
Let’s just say the Buddha died in 400 BCE.
假设佛陀于公元前 400 年圆寂。
We don’t have any carbon-dated texts of Buddhism from the first century before the common era.
我们没有任何公元前一世纪的佛教文献。
We’re talking about centuries before anything was written down, but we know that they were memorized and chanted.
我们谈论的是在任何东西被写下来之前的几个世纪，但我们知道它们被记住和吟诵。
We have monks who have the job.
我们有从事这项工作的僧人。
Their job is called reciters of the middle-length sutras.
他们的工作叫做念中经。
We have a fairly good idea that what was recited at that time is what we have in the texts.
我们很清楚当时所背诵的内容就是我们在经文中所拥有的内容。
Then, of course, many, many texts were composed after the passing of the Buddha.
当然，佛陀入灭后，许多许多的经典被创作出来。
There’s no question about that.
毫无疑问。
As you know, we live in a world where so many people, including in poorer countries — they’re on YouTube, or they’re on TikTok, or both.
如您所知，我们生活在一个有很多人（包括较贫穷国家）的世界，他们在 YouTube 上，或者在 TikTok 上，或者两者兼而有之。
How is that reshaping Buddhism today?
这如何重塑了今天的佛教？
It means that there are all sorts of teachers from all Buddhist traditions, both teaching in their native language and teaching in English.
这意味着有来自所有佛教传统的各种各样的老师，既有用母语教学的，也有用英语教学的。
There are all sorts of Tibetan lamas and Sri Lankan monks and Thai monks.
有各种各样的西藏喇嘛、斯里兰卡僧人、泰国僧人。
We have Buddhist rituals being performed via YouTube, for example, in Japan, funerals, and there’s a special ritual that’s done for fetuses that have been aborted in Japan.
例如，我们通过 YouTube 举办佛教仪式，在日本举行葬礼，还有为在日本流产的胎儿举行的特殊仪式。
That can be done over the Internet now.
现在这可以通过互联网完成。
We’re seeing this explosion, of course, of Buddhist teachings online.
当然，我们在网上看到了佛教教义的爆炸式增长。
Then, the other thing people in my field are talking about is the use of AI for translation.
然后，我所在领域的人们正在谈论的另一件事是使用人工智能进行翻译。
I was at a conference at Berkeley recently, which was called AI and the Future of Buddhist Studies, because we have this vast canon.
我最近参加了伯克利的一个会议，名为人工智能和佛教研究的未来，因为我们有这个庞大的经典。
The majority of the texts have never been translated.
大多数文本从未被翻译过。
We’re in a position, probably in the next five years, where we can translate almost everything — if we want to — from any Buddhist canonical language fairly accurately.
我们可能在未来五年内可以相当准确地翻译任何佛教经典语言中的几乎所有内容（如果我们愿意的话）。
Should I think of the current time as an age of proliferation of heresies through YouTube?
我是否应该将当前时代视为异端邪说通过 YouTube 泛滥的时代？
Or is there somehow not enough of a canon where that even makes sense?
或者是否没有足够的标准来解释这一点？
Who issues the verdicts here?
谁在这里做出判决？
There’s no pope, right?
没有教皇，对吗？
Right.
正确的。
There’s no one to decide that.
没有人可以决定这一点。
This has been the case in Buddhism forever.
这在佛教中一直都是这样。
Who decides?
谁决定？
When we’re in a place like Tibet, there’s a Dalai Lama, there are major lamas.
当我们在西藏这样的地方时，有达赖喇嘛，有主要喇嘛。
We have a situation where the monasteries are powerful.
我们的情况是寺院很强大。
The abbots have power, but all that’s gone now, so who speaks for Buddhism is a big question, a huge one right now.
方丈有权力，但现在一切都消失了，所以谁为佛教说话是一个大问题，现在是一个巨大的问题。
On how different strands of Buddhism coexist
关于佛教的不同流派如何共存
The different strands of Buddhism, as you would find in Japan or Korea compared to Sri Lanka — do they regard each other as heresies, or they just coexist?
佛教的不同流派，正如你在日本或韩国与斯里兰卡相比所发现的那样——他们是否认为对方是异端，或者只是共存？
What is the hierarchy like?
层次结构是什么样的？
We have something called the Mahayana sutras.
我们有一种叫做大乘经的东西。
We have a whole canon of texts that appear after the death of the Buddha, probably right around the beginning of the common era, which are clearly texts that the Buddha did not speak.
我们有一整套经典的经典，是在佛陀入灭后出现的，大概是在公元初期左右，这些经典显然是佛陀没有说过的。
We have these two forms of Buddhism.
我们有这两种形式的佛教。
We have the Buddhism which we call the Theravada, which is the tradition of the elders.
我们有佛教，我们称之为上座部佛教，这是长辈的传统。
That’s the Buddhism of Sri Lanka and Southeast Asia.
这就是斯里兰卡和东南亚的佛教。
In Theravada Buddhism, they follow the Pali Canon, what the Europeans call Northern Buddhism.
在上座部佛教中，他们遵循巴利经典，欧洲人称之为北传佛教。
China, Japan, Korea, Tibet, Nepal, Vietnam — they accept these Mahayana sutras as the word of the Buddha.
中国、日本、韩国、西藏、尼泊尔、越南，他们都接受这些大乘经典为佛语。
From the Southern Buddhist position, from the Theravada position, those other texts are heretical.
从南传佛教的立场来看，从上座部佛教的立场来看，那些其他的经典都是异端。
The Buddha never taught that.
佛陀从未教导过这一点。
From the Mahayana tradition, the Buddha did teach those sutras as well as the Pali.
从大乘传统来看，佛陀确实教导了这些经典以及巴利文。
They’re more inclusive.
他们更具包容性。
They also then disdain the early tradition for rejecting what they consider the Mahayana teachings, what they consider higher.
然后，他们也蔑视早期的传统，拒绝他们认为的大乘教义，他们认为更高的教义。
This notion that the Mahayana teachings — they’re uniquely somehow the great vehicle, as it’s sometimes put.
正如有时所说的那样，大乘教义在某种程度上是独特的伟大载体。
Right.
正确的。
Is that contested or true?
这是有争议的还是真实的？
Great vehicle from whose perspective?
从谁的角度来看很棒的车辆？
That they’re more universalistic?
他们更普遍吗？
There’s more open access to Buddhist truth somehow?
不知怎的，有更开放的途径接触佛教真理吗？
That would be their claim.
这就是他们的主张。
From the scholarly perspective, it’s not true.
从学术角度来看，这是不正确的。
It’s an advertisement that they make.
这是他们制作的广告。
They do have a whole different pantheon of bodhisattvas.
他们确实有一个完全不同的菩萨万神殿。
They have texts like the Diamond Sutra, Heart Sutra, Lotus Sutra.
他们有《金刚经》、《心经》、《法华经》等经典。
The most famous sutras in English are all Mahayana Sutras.
最著名的英文佛经都是大乘佛经。
From the perspective of scholars, these were not taught by the historical Buddha, and yet they have this great influence.
从学者的角度来看，这些并不是历史上佛陀所教导的，但他们却有如此大的影响。
Now, I’m just some guy who reads your books and travels around.
现在，我只是一个读你的书并四处旅行的人。
Okay.
好的。
But when I go to these different countries, my gut feeling — not backed by anything firm — is that when I’m in Sri Lanka, that’s “the real Buddhism.” Is there anything to that, or that’s just totally a figment of my imagination?
但当我去这些不同的国家时，我的直觉 ——“没有任何坚定的支持”——是，当我在斯里兰卡时，那就是“真正的佛教”。这有什么关系吗，或者这完全是我的想象？
Well, the question is, who decides, right?
好吧，问题是，谁来决定，对吗？
Right.
正确的。
Who decides what’s real?
谁来决定什么是真实的？
From the point of view of the Sri Lankans, that’s real Buddhism.
从斯里兰卡人的角度来看，这才是真正的佛教。
They got it first.
他们先得到了。
They got it earliest.
他们最早得到的。
They’ve kept it the longest.
他们保留的时间最长。
It is the case that Buddhism died out in Sri Lanka three times and had to be reestablished over the centuries, but they claim to be maintaining the early, original teachings of the Buddha.
佛教在斯里兰卡曾三次灭亡，几个世纪以来不得不重新建立，但他们声称保留了佛陀早期的原始教义。
But Tibetans would, of course, dispute that.
但藏人当然会对此提出异议。
They would say, “We have the complete Canon that also includes the Mahayana sutras and the tantras, and therefore we have everything that the Buddha taught.”
他们会说：“我们有完整的经典，还包括大乘经典和密续，因此我们有佛陀所教的一切。”
It’s just a question of who accepts which text as authentic.
这只是一个谁接受哪个文本为真实文本的问题。
But I think, from the point of view of, what did Buddhist monks look like in the time of the Buddha, they probably looked most like the monks in Sri Lanka in terms of the robes and their comportment.
但我想，从佛陀时代的佛教僧侣的样子来看，他们的袈裟和仪态可能最像斯里兰卡的僧人。
There’s something a bit more original about it.
它有一些更原始的东西。
It would be like visiting a Christian church in Armenia or Ethiopia.
这就像参观亚美尼亚或埃塞俄比亚的基督教教堂一样。
You wouldn’t say it’s necessarily the correct doctrine, but there’s something more primeval.
你不会说这一定是正确的学说，但还有一些更原始的东西。
It’s a longer continuity, exactly.
确切地说，这是一个更长的连续性。
Buddhism came there the earliest outside of India.
佛教最早在印度以外传入那里。
On Buddhism’s diminishing
论佛教的衰落
Now, if I look at the historical record, am I right to fear that Buddhism .
现在，如果我看看历史记录，我对佛教的恐惧是对的吗？
.
。
.
。
disappearing is too strong a word, but it used to be prominent in Java.
消失这个词太重了，但它曾经在Java中很突出。
Now it’s quite gone.
现在已经完全消失了。
It used to be prominent in what we would call India or a lot of South Asia.
它曾经在我们所说的印度或许多南亚地区很突出。
Certainly, in India, it’s quite gone.
当然，在印度，这种情况已经消失了。
There was a Pew study that came out, I think, in March this year.
我想，皮尤研究中心今年三月发布了一项研究。
In Japan, Buddhism is plummeting.
在日本，佛教正在急剧下降。
Korea — Buddhism is less popular.
韩国 — 佛教不太受欢迎。
China — it’s much harder to say, but it’s not obvious that Buddhism has a bright future there.
中国——很难说，但佛教在那里的光明前景并不明显。
Is that just the trend?
这只是趋势吗？
There’s also Tibet, right, which you didn’t mention.
还有西藏，对吧，你没有提到。
Right.
正确的。
China.
中国。
Yes.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Yes.
是的。
Buddhism as a monastic tradition, which really, from the point of view of Buddhism, Buddhism exists in the world as long as the monks are around.
佛教作为一种寺院传统，确实，从佛教的角度来看，只要有僧人在，佛教就存在于世间。
They talk about a time in the future when the yellow robe of the monks will turn white.
他们谈论在未来的某个时候，僧人的黄袍将变成白色。
White robes are the monks of lay people.
白袈裟是俗家的出家人。
The Buddhists predict their own decline and disappearance.
佛教徒预言自己的衰落和消失。
From the view of Buddhism, it’s happening a little quicker than they predicted in the earlier text.
从佛教的角度来看，它发生的速度比他们在早期文本中预测的要快一些。
We do see Buddhism as a monastic institution — which is really what it sees as its own heart — as disappearing.
我们确实将佛教视为一个寺院机构——“这实际上是它所认为的自己的核心”——正在消失。
Do you think there’s something about Buddhist doctrine that’s somehow not sufficiently well-suited for religious competition?
您是否认为佛教教义中有些东西不太适合宗教竞争？
Or it’s a historical accident?
还是历史的偶然？
Or it’s just the Buddhist doctrine is correct?
还是说佛教的教义就是正确的？
You mean, why it’s disappearing?
你的意思是，为什么它会消失？
Why it’s disappearing or diminishing.
为什么它会消失或减少。
It’s diminishing primarily for political reasons, I think.
我认为，它的减少主要是出于政治原因。
The Buddhists have not been able to adapt in ways that have been consistent with the governments that support them.
佛教徒未能以与支持他们的政府一致的方式进行适应。
Of course, the word that we translate as monk — in Sanskrit, bhikshu, means beggar.
当然，我们翻译的“僧”字——梵文中的“bhikshu”，就是乞丐的意思。
That is, Buddhist monks and nuns beg for their food.
即佛教僧尼乞食。
They may not touch money.
他们可能不会碰钱。
They may not till the soil.
他们可能不耕地。
Buddhism has always, always relied on patronage, and that patronage was primarily that of kings.
佛教一直以来都依赖赞助，而这种赞助主要是国王的赞助。
Kings are mostly gone now, so who are the patrons of Buddhism now?
现在国王大多已经不在了，那么现在佛教的赞助人是谁呢？
That entire monarchy system has largely disappeared, except in Thailand where, notably, Buddhism is very strong.
整个君主制基本上已经消失，除了泰国，那里的佛教尤其强大。
So, it’s really the decline of monarchies that has been the primary reason for the decline of Buddhism, at least on the monastic level.
因此，君主制的衰落确实是佛教衰落的主要原因，至少在寺院层面如此。
But is there something in the doctrine that makes it harder to attach to, say, autocracies, which are common around the world?
但这个学说中是否有什么东西让人更难依附于世界各地常见的独裁政权呢？
Or do you think it’s just an accident?
或者你认为这只是一个意外？
I think it’s mostly an accident.
我认为这主要是一个意外。
Buddhist monks have done quite well with kings.
佛教僧侣与国王相处得很好。
The idea is that Buddhist monks keep their vows, and by doing that, kingdoms are saved from famine, they’re saved from disease, they’re saved from foreign invasion.
这个想法是佛教僧侣遵守他们的誓言，通过这样做，王国可以免于饥荒，免于疾病，免于外敌入侵。
That hasn’t worked, so that patronage has disappeared, and because of that, the support for the monastic institution has declined sharply.
但这并没有奏效，因此赞助消失了，因此，对寺院机构的支持急剧下降。
On the Dalai Lama
关于达赖喇嘛
If I think of the Dalai Lama, who’s quite prominent in the West, from what I know, he’s named by, what?
如果我想到达赖喇嘛，他在西方相当有名，据我所知，他的名字是什么？
A Mongolian ruler hundreds of years ago.
数百年前的蒙古统治者。
Dalai Lamas — they’re typically commonly involved in politics.
达赖喇嘛——他们通常普遍参与政治。
What exactly makes the Dalai Lama legitimate, and to whom?
究竟是什么使达赖喇嘛合法化？对谁来说？
Where does that come from?
这是从哪里来的？
That’s probably a whole other segment , but briefly, Tibet has this strange institution called the incarnate lama.
这可能是一个完全不同的部分，但简单地说，西藏有一个奇怪的机构，称为转世喇嘛。
This is unique to Tibetan Buddhism, the idea that a great teacher will die, and then his followers will find the little boy who’s been reborn as this lama.
这是藏传佛教的独特之处，即一位伟大的导师会去世，然后他的追随者会找到转世为这位喇嘛的小男孩。
They will educate him.
他们会教育他。
He’ll become a great lama.
他会成为一位伟大的喇嘛。
This will go on from generation to generation.
这将代代相传。
We find this in Tibet beginning probably in the 11th century.
我们在西藏发现这种情况可能始于十一世纪。
There were a bunch of these incarnate lamas in Tibet, one of whom became patronized by a Mongol Khan, who called him Dalai Lama.
西藏有很多这样的转世喇嘛，其中一位得到了一位蒙古汗的庇护，汗称他为达赖喇嘛。
Dalai is the word for “ocean” in Mongolian.
达赖是蒙古语“海洋”的意思。
Several Dalai Lamas later, there was a civil war in Tibet.
几位达赖喇嘛之后，西藏发生了内战。
The Dalai Lama called another Mongol Khan to his aid.
达赖喇嘛召唤了另一位蒙古汗来帮助他。
He defeated the enemy, who were other Tibetans, and that Dalai Lama was placed on the throne of Tibet in 1642.
他击败了其他西藏人的敌人，达赖喇嘛于1642年登上了西藏的宝座。
This is the fifth Dalai Lama.
这就是五世达赖喇嘛。
He became the temporal and religious ruler of Tibet.
他成为西藏的世俗和宗教统治者。
This has gone on until we’re now on the 14th Dalai Lama.
这种情况一直持续到我们现在讨论第十四世达赖喇嘛。
Some of the Dalai Lamas were very powerful.
有些达赖喇嘛非常有权势。
Many were not.
许多人不是。
Obviously, as we’re seeing now, and as we can see in Tibetan history, this form of political succession is very inefficient.
显然，正如我们现在所看到的，以及我们在西藏历史上所看到的，这种形式的政治继承是非常低效的。
The Dalai Lama dies.
达赖喇嘛去世。
He leaves a letter or some sort of indication where he’ll be reborn.
他留下一封信或某种指示他将在哪里重生。
They wait two or three years for a child to be born, send out a search party around the country, and look for a child who fits the criteria to be the next Dalai Lama.
他们等了两三年，等到孩子出生后，派出搜寻队到全国各地寻找符合下一任达赖喇嘛标准的孩子。
This is done through oracles.
这是通过预言机完成的。
It’s done through giving the child possessions of the previous Dalai Lama.
这是通过给予前任达赖喇嘛的孩子财产来完成的。
Which one was yours in a past life?
哪一个是你的前世？
Then that little boy is brought to Lhasa, put in the Potala Palace, educated, becomes head of state when he’s probably 20.
然后那个小男孩被带到拉萨，放进布达拉宫，接受教育，大概20岁的时候就成为国家元首。
We have this interregnum of almost 25 years between Dalai Lamas in which the country is ruled by a regent.
达赖喇嘛之间有近25年的空位期，国家由摄政王统治。
If that regent — who is effectively the king of Tibet — if he wants to continue, maybe the Dalai Lama will die.
如果那个摄政王——实际上是西藏的国王——如果他想继续下去，也许达赖喇嘛就会死。
We have good evidence that several Dalai Lamas were actually poisoned by their regents.
我们有充分的证据表明，几位达赖喇嘛实际上是被他们的摄政者毒死的。
We have this person who’s head of state.
我们有一个国家元首。
He’s the ruler of the country.
他是国家的统治者。
Now the current Dalai Lama has just turned 90.
如今，现任达赖喇嘛刚满90岁。
Of course, he left.
当然，他离开了。
Chinese troops came into Tibet in 1950.
1950年，中国军队进入西藏。
Dalai Lama fled into exile in 1959, and he’s not been back.
1959年，达赖喇嘛流亡海外，至今没有回来过。
Just from a purely pragmatic point of view, how effective is the succession process?
仅从纯粹务实的角度来看，继任程序的有效性如何？
If I look at the current Dalai Lama and I ask myself, if I had to pick someone, I could spend five years doing central casting and have all of Hollywood on my side.
如果我看看现任的达赖喇嘛，我问自己，如果我必须选择一个人，我可以花五年时间进行中央选角，并让整个好莱坞都站在我这边。
It would have been hard to pick someone who’s as effective as he has been.
很难选出一个像他一样高效的人。
He is just perfect for the role, seems to be highly skilled at being a Dalai Lama.
他非常适合这个角色，似乎非常擅长扮演达赖喇嘛。
But it’s quite random, right?
但这是很随机的，对吧？
It is random.
它是随机的。
He’s unusual.
他很不寻常。
I think, when we look back at the Dalai Lamas, we’ll look at the fifth, who’s the one who became head of state, and the 14th, as two of the greatest.
我想，当我们回顾达赖喇嘛时，我们会看到第五世达赖喇嘛，他是成为国家元首的人，以及十四世达赖喇嘛，他们是最伟大的两位。
There’s no question, yes.
毫无疑问，是的。
Have we had catastrophic Dalai Lamas?
我们有灾难性的达赖喇嘛吗？
Yes.
是的。
We had the sixth Dalai Lama who said, “I don’t want to take this vow of celibacy.
六世达赖喇嘛说：“我不想发独身誓言。
If you make me do it, I’m going to kill myself.” He declined the role and died mysteriously after writing some very beautiful love poetry.
如果你逼我这么做，我就自杀。”他拒绝了这个角色，并在写了一些非常美丽的爱情诗后神秘去世。
Some have been great; some have not been so great.
有些很棒；有些则很棒。有些则没有那么好。
It is random, and of course, that 25 years from the time of the death of one to another is different in the 17th century than it is in the 21st century, right?
这是随机的，当然，从一个人死亡到另一个人死亡的 25 年在 17 世纪和 21 世纪是不同的，对吗？
You think of the current Dalai Lama passing away.
你会想到现任达赖喇嘛圆寂的情况。
He’s just said that he’s hoping to live till 130, so there’s still some time.
他刚刚说他希望活到130岁，所以还有时间。
After that happens, they have to find a new child, and 25 years in the 21st century — a lot can happen during that time, obviously.
在那之后，他们必须找到一个新的孩子，而21世纪有25年了——显然，这段时间可能会发生很多事情。
Yes, but it seems fine if they just step down, right?
是的，但如果他们下台似乎也没什么问题，对吧？
As would be the case in a monarchy.
就像君主制国家的情况一样。
Of the 14, how many of them have just been bad people?
这14个人中，有多少人只是坏人？
We don’t know.
我们不知道。
A lot of them died young, as I said.
正如我所说，他们中的很多人都英年早逝。
The sixth who stepped down is beloved.
第六位下台的人很受爱戴。
None were tyrants.
没有人是暴君。
Buddhists in other countries — how many of them just have basic respect for the Dalai Lama, even if he’s not as special for them?
其他国家的佛教徒——“即使达赖喇嘛对他们来说没有那么特别，但他们中有多少人只是对达赖喇嘛有基本的尊重？”
I think basic respect is there.
我认为基本的尊重是有的。
He’s special to the Tibetans, and he’s special to the Mongolians.
他对藏族人来说很特别，对蒙古人来说也很特别。
They would regard him as the incarnation of this great bodhisattva of compassion.
他们会把他视为这位大悲菩萨的化身。
For other Buddhists, I think they’re happy that he has promoted Buddhism as he has over the course of his time in exile.
对于其他佛教徒来说，我认为他们很高兴他在流亡期间推广佛教。
I think he is respected, definitely, yes.
我认为他确实受到尊重，是的。
On the Tibetan Book of the Dead and Theosophy
论西藏度亡经与神智学
In the West, the so-called Tibetan Book of the Dead is a big deal, but is that even a real thing?
在西方，所谓的《西藏度亡经》是一件大事，但这真的是真的吗？
How’d that happen?
这是怎么发生的？
Again, that’s another program.
再说一遍，那是另一个程序。
I have written a book about this, as you probably know.
正如您可能知道的那样，我写了一本关于此的书。
The Tibetans — they have a very strange idea.
西藏人——他们有一个非常奇怪的想法。
The idea in Tibet is that in order to have a text be authentic, it must come from India.
西藏的想法是，为了使文本具有真实性，它必须来自印度。
The Tibetans crossed the Himalayas, went to India, brought back many texts.
藏人越过喜马拉雅山，前往印度，带回了许多文献。
They invited many great Buddhist teachers from India to come to Tibet.
他们从印度邀请了许多伟大的佛教导师来到西藏。
We have this phenomenon, this idea that one of these people who came from India, called Padmasambhava, buried a bunch of books all over Tibet, thinking, “The Tibetans are not civilized enough to really take advantage of the true teaching, so I’m going to bury some teachings all over the country and let them be unearthed at the appropriate time.” These are called treasure texts.
我们有这样一种现象，这种想法是，有一个来自印度的人，名叫莲花生大士，在西藏各地埋藏了一堆书籍，心想：“西藏人还没有文明到能够真正利用真正的教法，所以我要在全国各地埋藏一些教法，让它们在适当的时候被挖掘出来。”这些被称为宝文。
This is a famous genre of Tibetan literature.
这是西藏文学的一个著名流派。
The so-called Tibetan Book of the Dead is one of these.
所谓的《西藏度亡经》就是其中之一。
It was dug up, apparently, by someone.
显然是被人挖出来的。
Again, this is a way, when we look at this historically, we’re looking at a way for Tibetans to have Indian text without going to India.
再说一次，这是一种方式，当我们从历史的角度来看这个问题时，我们正在寻找一种让藏人无需前往印度就能获得印度文本的方式。
These texts are buried, and they’re in a script that only the discoverer can read.
这些文本被埋藏起来，并且它们的文字只有发现者才能阅读。
We have to translate it into classical Tibetan and then proclaim this text.
我们必须把它翻译成古典藏文，然后宣扬这个文本。
Tibetan Book of the Dead is one of these.
《西藏度亡经》就是其中之一。
It was rather randomly suggested by an American theosophist called Walter Evans-Wentz, who was visiting Sikkim in the early 20th century.
这是一位名叫沃尔特·埃文斯-温茨 (Walter Evans-Wentz) 的美国神智学家在 20 世纪初访问锡金时随机提出的。
He got it translated by the Tibetan school teacher at one of the boys schools nearby.
他让附近一所男子学校的藏族学校老师翻译了这本书。
Because he was a theosophist, he loved the Egyptian Book of the Dead — this was something very important to Madame Blavatsky — so he called it the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
因为他是神智学家，所以很喜欢埃及《亡灵经》——这对布拉瓦茨基夫人来说非常重要——所以他称它为“西藏亡灵书”。
Then he put all of his theosophical, crazy footnotes and introductions around that text, and it became, as you just said, one of the most important works in the Western transmission of Buddhism to Tibet.
然后他把他所有的神智学、疯狂的脚注和介绍都围绕着这篇文章，正如你刚才所说，它成为西方向西藏传播佛教的最重要的著作之一。
It’s been translated much better now.
现在已经翻译得好多了。
The whole thing is available, but the Evans-Wentz story and how this came about has been a very important moment in spreading Buddhism to the West.
整个事情都是可用的，但埃文斯-温茨的故事以及它是如何发生的一直是佛教向西方传播的一个非常重要的时刻。
He was just some guy from Trenton, New Jersey, right?
他只是新泽西州特伦顿的一个人，对吧？
Yes.
是的。
Exactly.
确切地。
He was Walt Wentz from Trenton.
他是来自特伦顿的沃尔特·温茨。
He went to study in the UK.
他去英国留学。
Because his mother’s last name was Evans, he changed his name to Walter Evans-Wentz, hyphenated to sound more British.
由于他母亲的姓氏是埃文斯，他将自己的名字改成了沃尔特·埃文斯-温茨（Walter Evans-Wentz），并用连字符连接起来，听起来更像英国人。
The theosophists — have they just distorted — in particular, the British or sometimes, the American — understanding of Buddhism?
神智学家——他们是否扭曲了——特别是英国人，有时是美国人——对佛教的理解？
What’s the distortion, the main difference they made?
它们造成的主要差异是什么？
What they claim is that, in theosophy, there were these enlightened masters who lived on the continent of Atlantis, and when Atlantis went under, they moved to Tibet because they felt that they don’t do well with magnetism.
他们声称，在神智学中，有一些开明的大师住在亚特兰蒂斯大陆上，当亚特兰蒂斯沉没时，他们搬到了西藏，因为他们觉得自己不擅长磁力。
Magnetism in Tibet was supposedly less, so they lived in the mountains of Tibet unknown to the Tibetans.
据说西藏的磁力较小，所以他们生活在西藏人不知道的西藏山区。
Madame Blavatsky called them the Mahatmas.
布拉瓦茨基夫人称他们为圣雄。
Mahatma Gandhi is actually named after these theosophical masters.
圣雄甘地实际上是以这些神智学大师的名字命名的。
She claimed to have gone to Tibet to have studied with the Panchen Lama and to have discovered texts in a language called Senzar.
她声称曾前往西藏跟随班禅喇嘛学习，并发现了一种名为“森扎尔”的语言的文本。
There’s no evidence that she really went there.
没有证据表明她真的去过那里。
There’s no evidence that she met the Panchen Lama, of course, and there’s no such thing as the Senzar language, as far as we know.
当然，没有证据表明她见过班禅喇嘛，据我们所知，也不存在森扎语言这样的东西。
This is part of the romance of Tibet, the mystification of Tibet that took place in the 19th and 20th century.
这是西藏浪漫的一部分，是发生在19、20世纪的西藏的神秘。
As Asia came under European control, the one place that was not under that control was Tibet.
当亚洲受到欧洲控制时，唯一不受欧洲控制的地方就是西藏。
This is where Shangri-La comes from, Lost Horizon.
这就是香格里拉的由来，消失的地平线。
All this is that all the myths about Asia crossed the Himalayas and remained there in Tibet until 1959 when the Dalai Lama came out.
这一切都是关于亚洲的所有神话越过喜马拉雅山，一直留在西藏，直到1959年达赖喇嘛出世。
Rudolf Steiner is still influential in Germany, or his writings, rather.
鲁道夫·施泰纳在德国，或者说他的著作，仍然具有影响力。
Steiner, I don’t think was a theosophist.
斯坦纳，我不认为他是神智学家。
He’s a fellow traveler.
他是一个旅伴。
He had his own thing.
他有他自己的东西。
Is there much Buddhism in that?
这里面有很多佛法吗？
Or again, it’s a lot more fabrication?
或者，这又是更多的捏造？
I haven’t studied Steiner.
我没有研究过斯坦纳。
I’ve looked a lot at theosophy and Blavatsky and Olcott, but not at Steiner, so I don’t have much to say about that.
我看过很多神智学、布拉瓦茨基和奥尔科特的著作，但没有看过斯坦纳的著作，所以我对此没什么可说的。
I’m sorry.
对不起。
On Zen Buddhism and South Asian strands
论禅宗佛教和南亚文化
If someone asks about Zen Buddhism from Japan, just theologically, what is special about that?
如果有人问日本的禅宗，仅从神学角度来说，有什么特别之处？
Zen is interesting in the sense that it does not seem to have originated in India.
禅宗很有趣，因为它似乎并非起源于印度。
The claim, of course, is that it had, but here’s the story.
当然，人们声称它确实如此，但故事是这样的。
The Buddha was about to give a teaching, and instead of giving a teaching, he just held up a flower.
佛陀正要说法，他没有说法，只是举起一朵花。
One monk got it, and he passed on what they called the mind-to-mind transmission over the generations until it went to someone named Bodhidharma, who traveled to China and brought it to China there.
一位僧人得到了它，他将所谓的心传心传代代相传，直到它传给了一位名叫达摩的人，后者前往中国并将其带到了中国。
Bodhidharma is probably not a historical figure.
达摩很可能不是一个历史人物。
So, Zen is among the major traditions of Buddhism.
因此，禅宗是佛教的主要传统之一。
It’s the one that we cannot trace directly back to India.
这是我们无法直接追溯到印度的一个。
We have this word in Sanskrit, jhāna.
我们在梵文中有这个词：jhāna。
Jhāna is the word for meditation.
Jhana 是冥想的意思。
The Chinese often just transliterated Sanskrit terms rather than translating them so they took jhāna and called it chán nà, shortened down to chán.
中国人常常只是音译梵文术语而不是翻译它们，所以他们把 jhāna 称为 chán nà，缩写为 chán。
That character chán is pronounced Zen in Japanese.
这个字符“chán”在日语中发音为“Zen”。
So, Zen is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese mispronunciation of a Sanskrit word that means meditation, and it is the meditation school.
所以，禅宗是梵语的汉语误读，意思是冥想，它是冥想流派。
Zen is what they call a special transmission outside the scriptures.
禅宗就是他们所说的经外特殊传承。
They don’t care so much about the sutras, at least that’s their claim.
他们不太关心佛经，至少他们是这么说的。
They talk about the mind-to-mind transmission, that is, the experience of enlightenment going from teacher to student.
他们谈论心对心的传递，即从老师到学生的开悟体验。
If we think about South Asia, Tamil Nadu is not, today, Buddhist, but Nepal and Bhutan are, and of course much of Sri Lanka.
如果我们想想南亚，今天的泰米尔纳德邦并不是佛教国家，但尼泊尔和不丹，当然还有斯里兰卡的大部分地区都是佛教国家。
How did those lines get drawn?
这些线条是如何绘制的？
Obviously, Tamil Nadu was part of the British colony of India, and we know that Buddhism had disappeared from that part of the subcontinent by the time the British arrived.
显然，泰米尔纳德邦是英国印度殖民地的一部分，我们知道，当英国人到达时，佛教已经从次大陆的那部分地区消失了。
Nepal is a majority Hindu country, but there is a small community called the Newars who are Buddhists, and they are the living link to Indian Buddhism, primarily in the Kathmandu Valley.
尼泊尔是一个以印度教为主的国家，但有一个名为尼瓦尔人的小社区是佛教徒，他们是印度佛教的活生生的纽带，主要分布在加德满都谷地。
That’s why we have Buddhism there.
这就是为什么我们那里有佛教。
Sikkim was also a small kingdom, as you know.
如您所知，锡金也是一个小王国。
It became part of India in the 20th century.
它在20世纪成为印度的一部分。
Again, it’s so close to Tibet that, really, they’re Tibetan Buddhists.
再说一次，这里距离西藏如此之近，以至于他们实际上都是藏传佛教徒。
In Nepal, the Newars follow Sanskrit Buddhism, Indian Buddhism, and then, in Sikkim they follow Tibetan Buddhism.
在尼泊尔，尼瓦尔人信仰梵文佛教、印度佛教，然后在锡金，他们信仰藏传佛教。
In Java, how does Buddhism disappear?
在爪哇，佛教是如何消失的？
Obviously, Islam comes, but Buddhism probably disappeared just because of the change in trade routes.
显然，伊斯兰教来了，但佛教可能只是因为贸易路线的变化而消失了。
Buddhism spread via trade — monks traveling on ships, kings being Buddhists.
佛教通过贸易传播——僧人乘船出行，国王也是佛教徒。
Again, Buddhism survives or declines when there is royal patronage or not.
同样，佛教的生存或衰落取决于是否有皇室的赞助。
When the king becomes a Hindu and is no longer a Buddhist, Buddhism is going to decline in that kingdom.
当国王成为印度教徒而不再是佛教徒时，佛教将在该王国衰落。
The story still seems odd to me though.
但这个故事对我来说仍然很奇怪。
If one goes to Borobudur in Java — spectacular, one of the most amazing places to see in the world.
如果你去爪哇的婆罗浮屠——那真是太壮观了，这是世界上最令人惊叹的地方之一。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
We read that it was abandoned.
我们读到它被遗弃了。
It wasn’t even converted into a tourist site or a place where you would sell things.
它甚至没有被改造成旅游景点或卖东西的地方。
Why would you just toss away so much capital structure?
为什么你要抛弃这么多的资本结构呢？
I think it just got overgrown by the jungle.
我想它只是被丛林淹没了。
I think that people were not going there.
我认为人们不会去那里。
There were no Buddhist pilgrims coming.
没有佛教香客前来。
The populace converted to Islam mostly, and it just fell into decline, just to be revived in the 19th, 20th century.
大部分民众皈依了伊斯兰教，伊斯兰教刚刚衰落，直到19、20世纪才得以复兴。
Turn it into a candy store or something!
把它变成糖果店什么的！
It just seems capital maintenance occurs across other margins.
资本维持似乎发生在其他利润率上。
The best-looking building you have — one of the best-looking in the world — is forgotten.
你拥有的最好看的建筑 ——世界上最好看的建筑之一——被遗忘了。
Don’t you find that paradoxical?
你不觉得这很矛盾吗？
That is odd because we do have Buddhist temples being destroyed.
这很奇怪，因为我们确实有佛教寺庙被毁。
We have mosques being built in their place sometimes.
有时我们会在他们的地方建造清真寺。
Borobudur, which of course, as you say, the most magnificent Buddhist monument in the world, just got forgotten somehow.
婆罗浮屠，当然，正如你所说，世界上最宏伟的佛教纪念碑，不知何故被遗忘了。
I don’t have a good answer to that.
对此我没有一个好的答案。
On why Thailand leads amongst Buddhist countries
为什么泰国在佛教国家中领先
This isn’t really a religious question, but it seems to me Thailand is much wealthier than other Buddhist countries.
这并不是一个真正的宗教问题，但在我看来泰国比其他佛教国家富裕得多。
That’s true.
这是真的。
Do you have an account of why that has evolved?
你知道为什么会发生这种情况吗？
Because Thailand never became a European colony.
因为泰国从未成为欧洲殖民地。
This was the great achievement of King Mongkut, that he knew the Christians well.
这是蒙库国王的伟大成就，他很了解基督徒。
He was on good terms with them.
他和他们关系很好。
He established trade relations.
他建立了贸易关系。
We know that the French were trying to convert the Thais, or Siam, to Christianity, Catholicism, from the time of Louis XIV, but the kings of the 19th century — Mongkut and Chulalongkorn — kept their country free from the British and the French, and therefore, there was no conversion.
我们知道，从路易十四时代起，法国人就试图让泰国人或暹罗人皈依基督教、天主教，但十九世纪的国王——“Mongkut”和“Chulalongkorn”——让他们的国家免受英国人和法国人的影响，因此没有发生皈依。
Buddhism remained the state religion.
佛教仍然是国教。
Thai kings serve time as Buddhist monks.
泰国国王曾担任佛教僧侣。
They become monks for some period of time, and they support the Sangha, the community, very strongly.
他们出家一段时间，并且非常强烈地支持僧伽、团体。
That’s why we see Thailand as being the wealthiest and most prosperous Buddhist community in the world right now.
这就是为什么我们认为泰国是目前世界上最富有、最繁荣的佛教社区。
But Ethiopia and Tibet were not really colonized by Europeans, and they’re both extremely poor.
但埃塞俄比亚和西藏并没有真正被欧洲人殖民，而且它们都非常贫穷。
When?
什么时候？
Now or —
现在或者 —
Now, but even historically.
现在，甚至历史上也是如此。
Ethiopia — briefly, there’s an Italian presence.
埃塞俄比亚 ——简单来说，有意大利的存在。
Tibet is never Europeanized.
西藏从未被欧洲化。
There’s general evidence that the longer you were colonized, actually, the richer you tend to be today, especially if it was the British, so it’s odd to say that Thailand is so wealthy because it wasn’t colonized.
有普遍证据表明，实际上，你被殖民的时间越长，你今天往往就越富有，特别是如果是英国人的话，所以说泰国如此富有是因为它没有被殖民，这很奇怪。
It wasn’t colonized, but it traded.
它没有被殖民，但它进行贸易。
They established trading companies.
他们成立了贸易公司。
All the trade went on.
所有的贸易都在继续。
They just never turned the government over to the Europeans.
他们只是从未将政府移交给欧洲人。
In Tibet, of course, the valleys are at 12,000 feet.
当然，在西藏，山谷海拔为 12,000 英尺。
Tibetan trade came primarily through China, and it was mostly just for tea.
西藏的贸易主要通过中国，而且主要是茶叶。
Tibet was never wealthy but the monasteries survived quite well because the monasteries ran the economy.
西藏从来就不富裕，但寺院却生存得很好，因为寺院主导着经济。
When we say that the economy of Tibet declined after 1959, it was because the monasteries were closed down by the Chinese.
当我们说1959年后西藏的经济衰退时，那是因为寺庙被中国人关闭了。
It’s just how wealth is distributed and where that wealth comes from.
这就是财富的分配方式以及财富的来源。
Thailand, as a seafaring nation, with good relations with the French and the British for centuries — they did fine.
泰国作为一个航海国家，几个世纪以来与法国和英国保持着良好的关系——他们做得很好。
Tibet didn’t.
西藏没有。
On an itinerary for a world tour of Buddhism
佛教世界巡演行程
Let’s say an educated person with some means came to you and said, “I want to do a two- or three-week tour of Buddhism around the world.” They’ll spend whatever it takes.
假设一个受过教育、有一定能力的人来找你说：“我想在世界各地进行为期两到三周的佛教之旅。”他们会不惜一切代价。
Where would you send them for a two- or three-week tour?
您会派他们去哪里进行为期两周或三周的旅行？
What are the essential landmarks or places?
有哪些重要的地标或地点？
I would send them to India.
我会把他们送到印度。
This is, of course, where it all began.
当然，这就是一切的开始。
We have these four places that are the four sacred sites: the place of the Buddha’s birth, the place of his enlightenment, the place of his first teaching, and the place of his passage into Nirvana.
我们有这四个地方，即四圣地：佛陀的诞生地、成道地、初传法地、涅槃地。
All of those are well-maintained shrines.
所有这些都是维护良好的神社。
Buddhists go on pilgrimage there from around the world, so you see Buddhists from all over the world there.
世界各地的佛教徒都会到那里朝圣，所以你会在那里看到来自世界各地的佛教徒。
There are incredible cave temples at Ajanta.
阿旃陀有令人难以置信的石窟寺庙。
There is a four-week tour of India that one could do and be just completely amazed and captivated by the beauty of the architecture and the artwork there.
有一个为期四个星期的印度之旅，人们可以进行一次，并且会被那里的建筑和艺术品之美完全惊叹和着迷。
You only send them to India.
你只把它们送到印度。
No super Thai, no Borobudur, nothing in Vietnam.
没有超级泰国，没有婆罗浮屠，越南什么也没有。
India is the first place.
印度是第一名。
That’s the homeland.
那就是祖国。
That’s the sacred land.
那是圣地。
That’s the Mecca.
那是麦加。
Of course, Thailand has incredibly beautiful temples, which are beautifully maintained.
当然，泰国有非常美丽的寺庙，而且维护得很好。
Borobudur — you have to go.
婆罗浮屠 — 你必须走。
If you can go to Tibet, of course, there are incredible monasteries and temples there.
如果你能去西藏，当然，那里有令人难以置信的寺院和寺庙。
Across the Buddhist world, there are remarkable monuments and artworks.
佛教世界各地都有非凡的纪念碑和艺术品。
You can go to any Buddhist country and be captivated, but I think India would be the first place to go.
你可以去任何一个佛教国家并被迷住，但我认为印度是第一个去的地方。
If you send them to one place in Thailand, where would that place be?
如果你把他们送到泰国的一个地方，那个地方会是哪里？
I think I would go to Bangkok just because there are so many great monasteries there.
我想我会去曼谷只是因为那里有很多很棒的寺庙。
That’s where, of course, the palace is, and you can see the close relationship between the king and the Sangha.
当然，宫殿就在那里，你可以看到国王和僧伽之间的密切关系。
On becoming an expert on Buddhism
论成为佛教专家
Your own position as leading expert on Buddhism, what is it you had to do to get that in terms of travel, languages?
作为佛教领域的权威专家，您在旅行和语言方面需要做什么才能获得这样的地位？
Obviously, study and writing, but just physically, what are the things you needed to do?
显然，学习和写作，但只是身体上，你需要做哪些事情？
Physically, I had to attend a university where Buddhism was taught, and I had the good fortune to go to UVA.
从身体上来说，我必须上一所教授佛教的大学，而我有幸进入了弗吉尼亚大学。
I did all three of my degrees there.
我在那里完成了所有三个学位。
When I was a senior, they hired someone who was an expert in Tibetan Buddhism.
当我大四的时候，他们聘请了一位藏传佛教专家。
That’s just either my good luck or my bad luck or my karma, that that was the person that I studied with.
那只是我的好运气或我的坏运气或我的业力，那就是我和我一起学习的人。
I began studying Sanskrit and Tibetan at Virginia.
我开始在弗吉尼亚学习梵语和藏语。
After doing my graduate studies, we all were supposed to go to India for a year, so I spent a year on a Fulbright in India in 1978, ’79, where I studied in a Tibetan monastery.
完成研究生学习后，我们都应该去印度一年，所以我于 1978 年、79 年在印度富布赖特度过了一年，在那里我在西藏寺院学习。
After the Tibetans went into exile in ’59, they re-established themselves across the subcontinent in South India.
59 年藏人流亡后，他们在南印度次大陆重新定居。
Monasteries that had 10,000 monks in Tibet were rebuilt and had probably 300 monks.
西藏原本有1万名僧人的寺院被重建后，僧人数量大约有300人。
I spent a year in one of those monasteries.
我在其中一个修道院呆了一年。
I was the only person there who wasn’t Tibetan.
我是那里唯一一个不是藏人的人。
No one spoke English so I had to learn how to speak Tibetan.
没有人会说英语，所以我必须学习如何说藏语。
I studied with the great abbots of that monastery.
我跟随那座寺院的伟大住持们学习。
After you’ve studied Sanskrit and Tibetan that much, there’s really only one profession open to you, that is to become an academic.
当你学了那么多梵文和藏文之后，你真正可以选择的职业只有一个，那就是成为一名学者。
I got a job first teaching at Middlebury College and then later, I’ve been in Michigan since 1989.
我首先在米德尔伯里学院找到了一份教书的工作，后来自 1989 年以来一直在密歇根州工作。
That’s the short story.
这就是短篇故事。
How did the whole idea come to you?
你是怎么想到这个想法的？
You’re a boy, maybe eight years old.
你是个男孩，大概八岁。
You don’t have this plan.
你没有这个计划。
At some point, you have the plan.
在某个时刻，你已经有了计划。
Where does the plan come from?
计划从何而来？
The plan came together rather slowly.
该计划的制定相当缓慢。
I was a suburban Methodist growing up in Alexandria.
我是一名在亚历山大郊区长大的卫理公会教徒。
My father worked at the Air and Space Museum.
我父亲在航空航天博物馆工作。
I was born in Bolling Air Force Base.
我出生在博林空军基地。
I’m a child of the 60s.
我是一个60后的孩子。
I was 16 in ’68, the year of the Tet Offensive, the assassination of Kennedy and King, the Democratic Convention in Chicago.
68 年我 16 岁，这一年发生了春节攻势、肯尼迪和金被暗杀、以及芝加哥民主党大会。
I go to college in 1970.
1970年我上大学。
That’s the year of Kent State.
那是肯特州立大学的一年。
I think that for many of us of that generation, we thought Western civilization is dead.
我认为对于我们这一代人中的许多人来说，我们认为西方文明已经死亡。
It’s hopeless.
这是没有希望的。
There’s no future here.
这里没有未来。
We had the naive belief that there was some sort of secret in the mystic East, in Hinduism and Buddhism.
我们天真地相信神秘的东方、印度教和佛教中存在着某种秘密。
There wasn’t much to read then.
那时没什么可读的。
There was Be Here Now by Ram Dass, Tibetan Book of the Dead that you mentioned, works of D.T.
你提到的拉姆·达斯（Ram Dass）的《现在就在这里》（Be Here Now），《西藏亡灵书》，是 D.T. 的作品。
Suzuki on Zen.
铃木论禅。
We read all of that stuff.
我们读了所有这些东西。
As I said, then you start studying languages and find this larger world.
正如我所说，然后你开始学习语言并发现这个更大的世界。
It was mostly just, I guess, from the Buddhist perspective, karma.
我想，从佛教的角度来看，这主要是业力。
If they had not hired this particular scholar at UVA in 1970, I would have maybe done something else.
如果 1970 年他们没有在 UVA 聘请这位特定的学者，我可能会做其他的事情。
I went to UVA thinking I’d be a Shakespeare scholar, and I ended up a scholar of Buddhism.
我去弗吉尼亚大学时以为自己会成为一名莎士比亚学者，但最终我成为了一名佛教学者。
When the Beatles come out with Tomorrow Never Knows in 1966, are you thinking, “This is awesome,” or are you thinking, “I know a lot already, this is BS?”
当披头士乐队在 1966 年推出《Tomorrow Never Knows》时，你是否在想，“这太棒了”，还是在想，“我已经知道很多了，这是废话吗？”
In 1966, I was 14.
1966年，我14岁。
I thought, “Turn off your mind, relax, and float downstream.” That was my inspiration in many ways.
我想：“放下你的思绪，放松，顺流而下。”这在很多方面都是我的灵感。
I thought it was fantastic.
我觉得这太棒了。
Beatles are very big for people of my generation.
披头士乐队对于我们这一代人来说非常重要。
The year you spent in the monastery, what was the biggest surprise of that experience?
你在寺院度过的那一年，那次经历中最大的惊喜是什么？
I guess I was surprised by how kind everybody was to me.
我想我对每个人对我的友善感到惊讶。
They have their own monastic schedule.
他们有自己的修道院时间表。
They’re very busy.
他们很忙。
Monks have a lot to do, a lot to study.
僧人有很多事情要做，有很多东西要学习。
The greatest teachers of the monastery said, “I’m busy, but I’ll teach you what you want to know.” I got private teachings from the abbots, from the greatest scholars of the monastery over the course of that year.
寺里最伟大的老师们说：“我很忙，但我会教你你想知道的东西。”那一年，我从修道院里的方丈和最伟大的学者那里得到了私人教导。
That’s really sustained me throughout my entire career, that kindness.
这种善意确实支撑了我整个职业生涯。
You feel they had a very deep sense of Buddhism, and they knew classic texts and could teach you many things?
你觉得他们佛法很深，懂经典，能教你很多东西？
Absolutely, yes.
绝对是的。
They were super scholars and they’d memorized hundreds of pages of texts.
他们是超级学者，记住了数百页的课文。
Financially, they’re supported by their government or —
在经济上，他们得到政府的支持或者 ——
Of course, there’s no government in India.
当然，印度没有政府。
They were given scrub land by the Indian government.
印度政府给了他们灌木丛土地。
They supported themselves primarily through donations from the West and from Tibetan farmers in the area who, as always, support the monastery.
他们主要通过西方和该地区藏族农民的捐赠来维持生计，而藏族农民一如既往地支持这座寺院。
But it was a very austere life for all of us.
但这对我们所有人来说都是非常简朴的生活。
What was the biggest hardship or source of pain, other than not having creature comforts?
除了没有物质享受之外，最大的困难或痛苦来源是什么？
I can’t think of any hardships.
我想不出有什么困难。
I would sit in my room under my single light bulb and listen to the tapes I’d made of my teachers and make transcripts of that on my little typewriter.
我会坐在我的房间里，在我的唯一一个灯泡下，听我为我的老师制作的录音带，并在我的小打字机上将其记录下来。
I have only fond memories of that time.
我对那段时光只有美好的回忆。
I also didn’t get sick, which, of course, many people did in India at that time, Westerners.
我也没有生病，当然，当时在印度很多西方人都生病了。
I kept my health.
我保持了健康。
I was on a Fulbright.
我参加了富布赖特项目。
I later learned that my stipend was larger than Indira Gandhi’s salary at that time.
后来我才知道，我的津贴比英迪拉·甘地当时的工资还要高。
I had a lot of money that I could also give to support some monks, which I did, of course.
我有很多钱，我也可以捐给一些僧侣，我当然这么做了。
Just day-to-day, it was just plain outright fun?
只是日常，这只是纯粹的乐趣？
I was by myself a lot because they have their own schedule, of course.
当然，我经常独自一人，因为他们有自己的日程安排。
They have ceremonies, they have chanting, they have their own classes.
他们有仪式，他们有诵经，他们有自己的课程。
I would just read while I could.
我会尽可能地读书。
Then whenever the abbots could see me, I’d go and sit for a couple of hours with them.
然后每当住持们看到我时，我就会去和他们一起坐上几个小时。
There wasn’t much.
没有太多。
I didn’t have much to listen to.
我没有太多可听的。
I’m a big baseball fan.
我是一个超级棒球迷。
My father sent me the sporting news.
我父亲给我发了体育新闻。
I remember pouring over the box scores of the Carolina League.
我记得翻阅了卡罗莱纳联盟的统计数据。
I had so little to read apart from Tibetan texts, but otherwise, it was fine.
除了藏文之外，我几乎没有什么可读的，但除此之外，还好。
You learned Tibetan and Sanskrit?
你学过藏文和梵文吗？
Right.
正确的。
Those are the two languages for Indian Buddhism.
这是印度佛教的两种语言。
If you could learn one other language to help in studying Buddhism, what would the next language be?
如果你可以学习另一种语言来帮助学习佛教，下一种语言会是什么？
It would be Classical Chinese.
这将是古典汉语。
Classical Chinese.
古典汉语。
Then Japanese?
然后是日语？
The Japanese are basically reading Buddhist texts in Chinese.
日本人基本上都是用中文阅读佛经。
For Korea and Japan, Chinese is the canonical language.
对于韩国和日本来说，汉语是规范语言。
If you think of your own life — your book, again, The Buddha: Biography of a Myth.
如果你想到你自己的生活——再次，你的书《佛陀：神话传》。
I recommend all of your books.
我推荐你所有的书。
The biggest one, I think, is called Buddhism: A Journey Through History.
我认为最大的一个叫做《佛教：历史之旅》。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
That’s correct.
这是正确的。
That came out in January.
那是一月份出来的。
That, to me, is the single best place to go for a comprehensive look at all of Buddhism, not just life of the Buddha, but this is about life of the Buddha.
对我来说，这是全面了解整个佛教的最佳地方，不仅仅是佛陀的一生，而是关于佛陀的一生。
Other than reading your books, if someone wants to learn about Buddhism and take this tour you’ve outlined, what else should a person do?
除了读您的书之外，如果有人想了解佛教并参加您所概述的这次旅行，还应该做什么？
I think reading Buddhist texts in translation can be very rewarding.
我认为阅读翻译的佛经是非常有益的。
Works like the Lotus Sutra, the Heart Sutra.
就像《法华经》、《心经》一样。
Take the famous ones.
就拿有名的来说吧。
There are many commentaries on those works.
对这些作品有很多评论。
The Pali Canon’s all been translated into beautiful English.
巴利文经典已全部翻译成优美的英文。
I think to get away from the secondary sources as soon as you can and get to the original texts in translation — that’s the most fruitful path.
我认为尽快摆脱二手资料并翻译原文 ——这是最富有成效的道路。
If it’s partly an oral religion, one should just talk to monks?
如果它部分是一种口头宗教，那么人们应该只与僧侣交谈吗？
What’s the way to do that?
有什么方法可以做到这一点？
Yes, talk to monks.
是的，和和尚交谈。
There are many, many monks giving teachings on YouTube.
YouTube 上有许许多多的僧侣在传法。
Hundreds, I’m sure.
我敢肯定，有数百个。
I don’t keep up with it.
我跟不上。
There’re too many to follow, but monks generally know what they’re talking about.
内容太多，难以理解，但僧侣们通常都知道他们在说什么。
Your Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism — How many pages is that?
你的普林斯顿佛教词典 — 那有多少页？
I’ve repressed that, but I think it’s over a thousand.
我已经压抑了这一点，但我认为它已经超过了一千个。
This was a huge task, and it became the standard reference work for the field.
这是一项艰巨的任务，它成为该领域的标准参考书。
That took you how many years?
那你花了多少年的时间？
I did this with my colleague, Robert Buswell at UCLA.
我和加州大学洛杉矶分校的同事罗伯特·巴斯韦尔一起做了这件事。
I think it took us probably, from start to finish, about a decade.
我认为从开始到结束我们可能花了大约十年的时间。
Mainly, you’re nagging people to send in their entries.
主要是，你在催促人们提交他们的参赛作品。
We wrote every entry.
我们写了每一个条目。
You wrote every entry?
每个条目都是你写的吗？
I didn’t know that.
我不知道。
That’s phenomenal!
太棒了！
Yes, the two of us wrote it.
是的，我们两个人写的。
What is the skill you have that enabled you to write every entry?
您拥有什么技能让您能够撰写每一篇文章？
I chose an excellent scholar as my partner.
我选择了一位优秀的学者作为我的搭档。
He knows Chinese and Korean very well.
他精通中文和韩文。
He also knows Sanskrit, and he’d also been a monk in Thailand.
他还懂梵文，而且他也曾在泰国出家。
We had enough life experience between us and enough teaching experience between us and enough languages between us to put together the list of terms that we thought needed to be there.
我们之间有足够的生活经验，我们之间有足够的教学经验，我们之间有足够的语言，可以将我们认为需要的术语列表放在一起。
Then, again, with the help of our graduate students.
然后，再次在我们研究生的帮助下。
It’s not to say that we did it all by ourselves.
这并不是说这一切都是我们自己完成的。
We had a lot of help from our students over that decade, but we had the bases covered, I think, to get that done.
在那十年里，我们从学生那里得到了很多帮助，但我认为，我们已经具备了完成这项任务的基础。
If you think of the next, or maybe current, generation of younger scholars of Buddhism, do they evince a similar level of dedication?
如果你想到下一代，或者当代的年轻佛教学者，他们是否表现出类似的奉献精神？
Is it somehow in decline, or you think it’s fine?
是在下降，还是你认为还不错？
Part of it is the state of the American academy, of course.
当然，部分原因是美国学院的状况。
That’s a whole other conversation.
那是完全不同的对话。
Religion departments are declining in some places right now.
现在一些地方的宗教部门正在衰落。
The jobs that there were, I think, at certain times during my own career — our own graduate students are having trouble getting academic positions.
我认为，在我自己的职业生涯中的某些时期，我们自己的研究生很难获得学术职位。
Sometimes they can work as translators.
有时他们可以担任翻译。
Sometimes they can do other things, but the academic field of Buddhist studies, at least in the US, is in a bit of a crisis right now.
有时他们可以做其他事情，但佛学研究的学术领域，至少在美国，现在正面临着一些危机。
Last question in two parts.
最后一个问题分为两部分。
If you just think of yourself, what is it you want to write next?
如果你只想到自己，接下来你想写什么？
And what is it you want to do next with respect to Buddhism?
您下一步想对佛教做什么？
I’ve been thinking about a book called Buddhism and Business: A Brief History.
我一直在考虑一本叫做《佛教与商业：简史》的书。
I have an idea about how that would go.
我知道事情会如何发展。
I also am worried about the book itself as a form.
我也担心书本身作为一种形式。
As you know, sales of books, in general, are declining for all sorts of reasons, but there are so many great Buddhist stories, and there are ways of conveying Buddhism in other ways.
如您所知，由于各种原因，书籍的销量总体上在下降，但是佛教故事有很多，并且有很多其他方式来传达佛教。
I’d like to find a way for Buddhism to make its way into drama, into film, into radio plays, so I’d like to find a way to take Buddhist thought, Buddhist philosophy, Buddhist stories, and put them into this new medium.
我想找到一种方法让佛教进入戏剧、电影、广播剧，所以我想找到一种方法将佛教思想、佛教哲学、佛教故事放入这种新媒体中。
That would be my dream right now.
那将是我现在的梦想。
Donald Lopez, thank you very much.
唐纳德·洛佩兹，非常感谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢。
It was a pleasure.
这是一种乐趣。
This episode was made possible through the support of the John Templeton Foundation.
这一集是在约翰·邓普顿基金会的支持下得以实现的。