Diarmaid MacCulloch on Christianity, Sex, and Unsettling Settled Facts (Ep. 268)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today, I am here with Diarmaid MacCulloch.
今天，我和迪阿梅德·麦克卡洛克一起来到这里。
He has a new book out, Lower than the Angels: A History of Sex and Christianity, which I recommend very highly.
他出版了一本新书《低于天使：性与基督教的历史》，我强烈推荐这本书。
In fact, all of his books are excellent.
事实上，他的所有书都很棒。
He is one of those historians where each and every book he has done is worth reading.
他是一位历史学家，他写的每一本书都值得一读。
He is emeritus professor of the History of the Church at Oxford and now a senior research fellow at Oxford.
他是牛津大学教会史名誉教授，现任牛津大学高级研究员。
Diarmaid, welcome.
迪亚女仆，欢迎光临。
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
Nice to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
In the history of the West and the world more generally, why does it seem that monotheistic religion and monogamy are so closely correlated?
在西方乃至整个世界的历史中，为什么一神教和一夫一妻制看起来如此密切相关？
A good question.
这是个好问题。
They are not always closely correlated.
它们并不总是密切相关。
They certainly weren’t in Judaism.
他们当然不属于犹太教。
Judaism is a form of religion in which — let’s call it, very precisely, polygyny rather than polygamy.
犹太教是一种宗教形式，“准确地说，我们称之为一夫多妻制”，而不是“一夫多妻制”。
Polygyny was a feature of Judaism, really, into the 20th century.
实际上，一夫多妻制一直是 20 世纪犹太教的一个特征。
In cultures where there were Jewish communities in Islam, then polygyny survived within living memory.
在存在伊斯兰教犹太社区的文化中，一夫多妻制仍然存在于人们的记忆中。
There are Jewish people alive who would have known that polygynous context.
有些活着的犹太人应该知道一夫多妻制的背景。
In the West, it is further back with Judaism.
在西方，它可以追溯到犹太教。
It’s the 12th century when Jews ceased to allow polygyny in such circumstances.
到了 12 世纪，犹太人在这种情况下不再允许一夫多妻制。
I suspect that is because the pressures of Western society around them.
我怀疑这是因为他们周围西方社会的压力。
Western Christian society forced them into a monogamous form.
西方基督教社会迫使他们采取一夫一妻制的形式。
Conversely, monogamy was a feature of two great civilizations behind Christianity which were not at all monotheistic, that is Greek and Roman civilizations, which, most unusually in the ancient world, were monogamous.
相反，一夫一妻制是基督教背后的两个伟大文明的一个特征，这两个文明根本不是一神论的，那就是希腊和罗马文明，在古代世界中最不寻常的是，它们是一夫一妻制的。
I strongly suspect we may talk about this more, that this is the reason that Christianity decided to stick with monogamy against its cultural background in Judaism because it wanted to make an impression on Greek and Roman society.
我强烈怀疑我们可以更多地谈论这一点，这就是基督教在犹太教文化背景下决定坚持一夫一妻制的原因，因为它想给希腊和罗马社会留下印象。
So, you’ve got to be monogamous.
所以，你必须实行一夫一妻制。
Otherwise, that society will just not listen to you.
否则，社会就不会听你的。
There seems to be a feature of Greek and Roman societies emphasizing intellectually a kind of subordination in sexual relationships, which Christianity at least pretends to abolish.
希腊和罗马社会似乎有一个特征，在理智上强调性关系中的一种从属关系，而基督教至少假装废除了这一特征。
Why that shift?
为什么要这样转变？
Well, it didn’t abolish it really.
嗯，它并没有真正废除它。
Intellectually, it’s trying to, right?
从理智上来说，它正在努力，对吧？
Intellectually, it’s trying to?
从理智上来说，它正在努力吗？
Yes.
是的。
Its great liturgical action is an affirmation of equality between the sexes, that is baptism.
它伟大的礼拜仪式是对两性平等的肯定，那就是洗礼。
When you compare that with the entry right into Judaism, which is male circumcision, you see the difference, that to be, in a sense, fully Jewish is to be a man capable of being circumcised.
当你将其与进入犹太教（即男性割礼）进行比较时，你会发现其中的区别，从某种意义上说，成为完全的犹太人就是成为一个能够接受割礼的人。
Now Christianity introduced a new form of initiation to the religion, and that is baptism.
现在基督教引入了一种新的宗教入会形式，那就是洗礼。
It’s very difficult to see where it came from.
很难看出它来自哪里。
It’s not a prominent feature of Judaism before or any of the religions around, but it’s there very early indeed so that that leader who became subordinate to Jesus in the Christian faith, John, was known as “the Baptist” because this was the thing he did.
这并不是犹太教或周围任何宗教的显着特征，但它确实很早就存在，因此在基督教信仰中从属于耶稣的领袖约翰被称为“施洗者”，因为这就是他所做的事情。
We don’t really have any records of Jesus doing baptism, but John did.
我们确实没有任何关于耶稣施洗的记录，但约翰有。
Here is what became the way you become a Christian.
这就是你成为基督徒的方式。
Of course, unlike circumcision, it’s something which both men and women can receive, and they did.
当然，与包皮环切术不同，这是男性和女性都可以接受的手术，而且他们也确实做到了。
So, yes, you’re right.
所以，是的，你是对的。
In that sense, Christianity had structured itself towards equality.
从这个意义上说，基督教已经将自己构建为平等的。
But in so many ways, the history of the last 2,000 years is a stealthy march away from that idea in order to impose the normal patterns of the ancient world, which are male-centered and in which women have a subordinate role.
但从很多方面来看，过去 2000 年的历史已经悄悄远离了这一观念，以强加古代世界的正常模式，即以男性为中心，女性处于从属地位。
That’s the history of Christianity.
这就是基督教的历史。
That may be something which is now changing.
现在这可能正在改变。
Well, it certainly is changing.
嗯，它确实正在改变。
Since the 19th century, we’ve seen the ways in which women have increasingly asserted themselves in the Christian faith on an equal basis, so much so that so many churches now will allow women, will welcome women even, to be clerical people within it, clergy within it, have an ordained role within it.
自19世纪以来，我们已经看到女性越来越多地在平等的基础上在基督教信仰中维护自己的地位，以至于现在有很多教堂将允许女性，甚至欢迎女性，成为其中的神职人员，其中的神职人员，在其中担任指定的角色。
That initial egalitarian tendency — you think that’s a genuine innovation in Christianity?
最初的平等主义倾向 ——你认为这是基督教的真正创新吗？
I do.
我愿意。
I can’t see where it came from otherwise.
否则我看不出它来自哪里。
The crucial test is circumcision versus baptism.
关键的考验是割礼与洗礼。
It is there in remarkable fragments within the New Testament record, that set of writings which the Christian community created on top of the Hebrew scripture, which became its Old Testament.
新约圣经记录中有一些引人注目的片段，基督教团体在希伯来圣经的基础上创造了一套著作，希伯来圣经后来成为了旧约圣经。
The New Testament contains the writings of Paul, which are the oldest writings within the New Testament.
新约包含保罗的著作，这是新约中最古老的著作。
There are texts within what we now call 1 and 2 Corinthians, that is two letters to the Christian community in Corinth, in which in the first one, chapter 7 now, there is an essay by Paul on marriage.
我们现在所说的《哥林多前书》和《哥林多后书》中有两封信，即写给哥林多基督教团体的两封信，其中第一封信，即现在的第 7 章，有一篇保罗关于婚姻的文章。
It contains a most extraordinary statement about the relationship of married people, the bride and the groom, the man and the woman.
它包含了关于已婚人士、新娘和新郎、男人和女人的关系的最非凡的陈述。
It says in a very conventional ancient way that the wife’s body is not her own; it belongs to the husband.
它用一种非常传统的古代方式说，妻子的身体不是她自己的；她的身体不是她自己的。它属于丈夫。
Yes, it’s what you’d expect, any ancient culture, but then it reverses it.
是的，这就是你所期望的任何古代文化，但它却颠倒了过来。
It says likewise, the man’s body is not his own, but is owned by his wife.
同样，男人的身体不是他自己的，而是属于他妻子的。
Now, that is really extraordinary, and it is new.
现在，这确实是非凡的，而且是新的。
It is our mystical statement that the relationship between man and woman is a relationship of physicality.
我们神秘的说法是，男人和女人之间的关系是一种肉体关系。
This is about bodies, but it is also a relationship with the assumption that there is something mystical about marriage, which makes it a central part of Christianity.
这是关于身体的，但它也与婚姻具有神秘性的假设有关，这使得婚姻成为基督教的核心部分。
Actually, most generations of the church since, in the last 2,000 years, have put that aside, particularly in Eastern Orthodox Christianity.
事实上，在过去的 2000 年里，大多数世代的教会都把这一点放在一边，尤其是东正教。
They’ve spiritualized it away, so it is no longer about bodies.
他们已经将它精神化了，所以它不再与身体有关。
You can see this in the great Greek theologian John Chrysostom, who said it’s about an equality of esteem or chastity or financial support — anything but a physical body.
你可以在伟大的希腊神学家约翰·克里索斯托姆（John Chrysostom）身上看到这一点，他说这是关于尊重、贞洁或经济支持的平等——除了肉体之外的任何事物。
Now, the Western tradition didn’t do that, very interestingly.
有趣的是，西方传统并没有这样做。
The medieval Western church, for instance, the canon lawyers — who were creating a new legal system for the church and Christians generally — the canon lawyers looked to this text in Paul, 1 Corinthians 7:3, and they emphasized that marriage is about physicality, so much so that the church, for the first time, really said that marriage was characterized by procreation, must be characterized by the possibility of procreation.
例如，中世纪西方教会的教会法学家——“他们正在为教会和一般的基督徒创建一个新的法律体系”——教会法学家查阅了保罗《哥林多前书》7:3中的这段经文，他们强调婚姻与肉体有关，以至于教会第一次真正说婚姻的特点是生育，必须以生育的可能性为特点。
You get this coming back, but actually, at most times in Christian history, they haven’t gone with this Pauline idea.
你会发现这一点，但实际上，在基督教历史上的大多数时候，他们并没有接受保罗的这个想法。
They are not interested in equality, and they’re not interested in equality in marriage either.
他们对平等不感兴趣，对婚姻中的平等也不感兴趣。
Actually, you have to realize that throughout Christian history — and not just Christian history — marriage has been a contract between two men: the father of the bride and the father of the groom.
事实上，你必须认识到，在整个基督教历史中——不仅仅是基督教历史——婚姻一直是两个男人之间的契约：新娘的父亲和新郎的父亲。
It is not primarily a contract between the bride and the groom, the young people, as they mostly are, who get married.
它主要不是新娘和新郎之间的合同，即结婚的大多数年轻人。
It’s a family thing.
这是家庭的事情。
Isn’t spousal consent an important idea, by what, the 12th century?
到了 12 世纪，配偶同意不是一个重要的观念吗？
Yes, exactly, by the 12th century.
是的，确实是到了 12 世纪。
Yes, part of the great revolution of thinking about marriage and sex in the 12th century, but that’s 1,200 years, more than half of Christian history.
是的，这是 12 世纪关于婚姻和性的伟大思想革命的一部分，但那已经有 1200 年了，超过了基督教历史的一半。
Yes, we must — I’m sure we will — talk about the importance of the 12th century in the West, which transformed so many different things about marriage and sex.
是的，我们必须 ——我相信我们会 —— 谈论12世纪在西方的重要性，它改变了有关婚姻和性的许多不同的事情。
Where does that shift come from in the 12th or, arguably, even the 11th century?
12 世纪，甚至可以说，11 世纪，这种转变从何而来？
It is because of changing ideas about the Eucharist, the bread and wine, and what they mean in the Christian life.
这是因为人们对圣体圣事、面包和酒以及它们在基督徒生活中的意义的看法发生了变化。
Increasingly, the Western church emphasized that bread and wine in Eucharist are body and blood of Christ the Savior, and that they are created or made into that by the act of a priest.
西方教会越来越强调圣体圣事中的面包和酒是救世主基督的身体和血，并且它们是由牧师的行为创造或制成的。
Therefore, what a priest does in celebrating the mass, so-called as it’s called in the West, the Eucharist is so powerful that you want that person who does it, the priest, to be as pure as possible.
因此，牧师在庆祝弥撒时所做的事情，即西方所谓的圣体圣事是如此强大，以至于你希望做这件事的人，即牧师，尽可能纯洁。
There is a very short leap in talking about purity to sexual purity.
谈论纯洁到性纯洁之间的差距非常短暂。
In the 11th and 12th century, for the very first time in Christian history, all the clergy of the West must be celibate.
在十一世纪和十二世纪，基督教历史上第一次，所有西方神职人员都必须独身。
They must be virgins, just like monks.
他们必须是处女，就像和尚一样。
Monks are not the same as clergy, not the same as priests at all.
僧侣与神职人员不同，与牧师根本不同。
But from now on, there is a gradual amalgamation of these roles.
但从现在开始，这些角色逐渐融合。
You might call it a confusion of the role of the celibate monk with that of the priest.
你可能会称其为独身僧侣与牧师角色的混淆。
This is a 12th-century development.
这是12世纪的发展。
It has extraordinary consequences.
它会产生非凡的后果。
They ripple away from this great change in the nature of Western priesthood through interviews about marriage because the logic of making all clergy celibate is that the laity are now the only people who are practicing sex — within marriage, of course.
他们通过有关婚姻的采访，远离了西方神职人员性质的巨大变化，因为让所有神职人员独身的逻辑是，平信徒现在是唯一在婚姻中进行性行为的人——当然，是在婚姻内。
Otherwise, it’s illicit.
否则，就是非法的。
Now, you’ve got this situation because of a celibate clergy.
现在，你遇到这种情况是因为独身神职人员。
Logically, you have what you might call copulating laity.
从逻辑上讲，你可能会遇到所谓的交配外行。
That’s something new in the history of marriage in Christianity.
这在基督教婚姻史上是一件新鲜事。
It means, in the end, that what you must say about a marriage is that it must be open to the possibility of procreation.
最后，这意味着，关于婚姻，你必须说的是，它必须对生育的可能性持开放态度。
Now, if you look back in Christian history before that, there are a lot of instances of marriage which are deliberately celibate, chaste.
现在，如果你回顾一下之前的基督教历史，就会发现有很多刻意独身、贞洁的婚姻实例。
The people involved get married and they remain virgins as a token of their purity.
所涉人员结婚后仍保持童贞，以象征纯洁。
There are saints’ stories like this.
有这样的圣人故事。
In England, we have a very famous saint, St. Etheldreda, who became the first abbess of Ely, which is now a wonderful, great Romanesque and Gothic cathedral in eastern England.
在英格兰，我们有一位非常著名的圣人圣埃塞尔德雷达，她成为伊利的第一任女修道院院长，伊利现在是英格兰东部一座美妙、伟大的罗马式和哥特式大教堂。
It started life as an Anglo-Saxon monastery founded by this princess, Etheldreda, who was not just a princess.
它最初是一座盎格鲁-撒克逊修道院，由埃塞尔德丽达公主建立，她不仅仅是一位公主。
She’d been married twice to two different Anglo-Saxon kings, and in both cases, she had refused to give them sex, which is a bit disconcerting if you’re a king because what you want is an heir to the throne.
她曾两次与两位不同的盎格鲁撒克逊国王结婚，在两次婚姻中，她都拒绝为他们提供性服务，如果你是国王，这有点令人不安，因为你想要的是王位继承人。
She must have been an extraordinary lady.
她一定是一位非凡的女士。
Anyway, second marriage, they gave up.
反正二婚，他们就放弃了。
The king said, “All right, you win.
国王说：“好吧，你赢了。”
You clearly want to be a nun.
你显然想成为一名修女。
Go off and be a nun and found a new monastery.”
去当尼姑并建立一座新修道院吧。”
This is an enormously popular story in Anglo-Saxon England, but it’s a story which would make no sense after the 12th century, if you look at it closely, because marriage is supposed to be about procreation.
这是一个在盎格鲁-撒克逊英格兰非常流行的故事，但如果你仔细观察的话，这个故事在 12 世纪之后就变得毫无意义了，因为婚姻应该是为了繁衍后代。
The church tells you that.
教会告诉你这一点。
Otherwise, there is no marriage.
否则，就没有婚姻。
It’s one of the ways you get out of a marriage in Roman Catholic theology.
在罗马天主教神学中，这是摆脱婚姻的方式之一。
If no sex has taken place.
如果没有发生性行为。
That’s how Henry VIII got out of one of his marriages, by saying it had never taken place.
亨利八世就是这样摆脱他的一段婚姻的，他说这段婚姻从未发生过。
He’d never had sex with that woman, a phrase later reused.
他从未与那个女人发生过性关系，这句话后来被重复使用。
But explaining the timing of that shift — why in the 12th century in particular does that happen?
但解释一下这种转变的时间 ——为什么这种情况尤其会发生在 12 世纪呢？
It is because of the changing nature of thought about the Eucharist, and that’s a gradual —
这是因为关于圣体圣事的思想本质发生了变化，这是一个渐进的 ——
That’s endogenous, though, right?
但这是内生的，对吗？
What’s the ultimate cause?
最终原因是什么？
No, that’s exactly what it’s about.
不，这正是它的意思。
That is a process of changing the Eucharist over the previous 200 or 300 years into making the Eucharist a uniquely powerful thing, which you do as much as possible if you’re a priest.
这是一个改变过去200或300年圣体圣事的过程，使圣体圣事成为一种独特而强大的东西，如果你是一名牧师，你会尽可能多地这样做。
Monasteries are redesigned.
修道院经过重新设计。
Monastic churches were redesigned so that now they didn’t just have one altar at which the Eucharist took place.
修道院教堂经过重新设计，现在不再只有一个举行圣体圣事的祭坛。
They had multiple altars, side altars, at which masses could be celebrated for saving the souls of particular people, mostly members of the nobility who had paid for setting up the monastery.
他们有多个祭坛、侧祭坛，可以在这些祭坛上庆祝弥撒，以拯救特定人的灵魂，这些人大多是出资建立修道院的贵族成员。
The prayers of the monks are there to save the souls of the nobility of Europe for the very good reason that Christianity still disapproved of the shedding of blood.
僧侣们的祈祷是为了拯救欧洲贵族的灵魂，这是有充分理由的，因为基督教仍然不赞成流血。
Anyone who was involved in that, which meant the entire nobility of medieval Europe, was deprived of a straight route to heaven.
任何参与其中的人，即整个中世纪欧洲的贵族，都被剥夺了通往天堂的直接道路。
The way you can get around that is by getting monks to pray for you and do the penances which you deserve to do as a shedder of blood.
你可以解决这个问题的方法是让僧侣为你祈祷，并做你作为一个流血者应该做的苦行。
There is a sequence of things — not just the 11th and 12th century — that’s the culmination of a process which you can see beginning really in the 8th and 9th centuries.
有一系列的事情 ——“不仅仅是十一世纪和十二世纪”——这是一个过程的顶峰，你可以看到这个过程真正开始于八世纪和九世纪。
On Christianity’s position against homosexuality
论基督教反对同性恋的立场
Relative to the ancient Greek world, early Christianity is quite hostile to homosexuality.
相对于古希腊世界，早期基督教对同性恋相当敌视。
Where does that come from?
这是从哪里来的？
It comes from two different places.
它来自两个不同的地方。
First, it comes from Judaism, which increasingly emphasized procreation within marriage.
首先，它来自犹太教，犹太教越来越强调婚姻内的生育。
It’s a religion which is very concerned with increasing the number of the chosen people.
这是一个非常关心增加选民数量的宗教。
So, it is there, and that means that there is something of a strand of homophobia within the Jewish tradition on same-sex relationships.
所以，它就在那里，这意味着犹太传统中对同性关系存在某种恐同心理。
But it’s also, curiously, from within the Greek world.
但奇怪的是，它也来自希腊世界。
There is a deeply world-denying, austere strain of Jewish philosophy, which is against, really, any form of sex.
犹太哲学有一种深深的否定世界、严肃的倾向，实际上反对任何形式的性。
Within that, Christians took up that idea and applied it to the existing suspicion of hostility to same-sex relationships within Judaism.
其中，基督徒接受了这个想法，并将其应用于犹太教内部对同性关系的敌意。
You see that particularly within the Christian church in Alexandria, which is one of the meeting places of Greek culture and Jewish culture, so there it is.
你会看到这一点，特别是在亚历山大的基督教教堂内，这是希腊文化和犹太文化的交汇地之一，所以它就是这样。
It’s there in Paul, of course, in the New Testament, very marginally.
当然，在《新约》和《保罗》中，这一点都非常少见。
He has one purple passage on it, which is not really so much about same-sex relationships.
他上面有一篇紫色的文章，其实与同性关系并没有多大关系。
It’s about idolatry.
这是关于偶像崇拜的。
The example he uses of people indulging in idolatry is one of same-sex relationships.
他用沉迷于偶像崇拜的人的例子之一是同性关系。
That’s the beginning of the epistle to the Romans.
这是罗马书的开头。
Then various epistles have lists of people who aren’t going to get to heaven.
然后各种书信都列出了那些不会去天堂的人。
It’s a funny old mix because it can be quite minor human peccadillos, people who won’t get to heaven.
这是一个有趣的古老组合，因为它可能是相当小的人类过失，那些不会上天堂的人。
In two of those lists, there are two sets of people called arsenokoitai and malakoi.
在其中两个列表中，有两组人，分别称为 arsenokoitai 和 malakoi。
It is not quite clear what these mean.
目前尚不清楚这些意味着什么。
Arsenokoitai is a slang term, probably, because it’s a very rare term in Greek.
Arsenokoitai 可能是一个俚语，因为它在希腊语中是一个非常罕见的术语。
It’s probably something which was used in the marketplace in the Eastern Mediterranean.
它可能是在东地中海市场上使用的东西。
The other one means simply “the soft.” Put these together and you may have the two sorts of relationship that you get in the classical version of same-sex relationships, which is an unequal structure between a younger and an older partner, that is a passive partner and an active partner.
另一种意思就是“软的”。把这些放在一起，你可能会得到经典版本的同性关系中的两种关系，这是年轻伴侣和年长伴侣之间的不平等结构，即被动伴侣和主动伴侣。
They may be on one side arsenokoitai, on the other side malakoi.
他们可能一侧是arsenokoitai，另一侧是malakoi。
It’s difficult to see why that should be applied to modern homosexuality.
很难理解为什么这应该适用于现代同性恋。
It’s a different institution.
这是一个不同的机构。
That ancient institution is not a lifestyle for life.
那种古老的制度并不是一种生活方式。
It’s a phase that people go through in their heterosexual lifestyle or their general lifestyle.
这是人们在异性恋生活方式或一般生活方式中经历的一个阶段。
Both partners would be expected to go on to be involved in a heterosexual marriage.
双方都应该继续参与异性婚姻。
Notice it’s also unequal by structure.
请注意，它的结构也是不平等的。
It’s about educating the younger partner in the ways of the Greek world.
这是关于以希腊世界的方式教育年轻的伴侣。
You look at Christian history — there’s not much change there at all.
你看看基督教历史——根本没有太大变化。
Whereas, if you look at Islam, there is much more acceptance of same-sex relationships in a rather traditional way, in a way rather like that of non-Christian Greek and Roman society.
然而，如果你看看伊斯兰教，你就会发现，人们以一种相当传统的方式，以一种类似于非基督教希腊和罗马社会的方式，更多地接受同性关系。
On what Foucault got wrong about Christianity
论福柯对基督教的错误看法
As you know, Michel Foucault wrote four volumes on the history of sexuality.
如您所知，米歇尔·福柯写了四卷有关性史的著作。
What did he get wrong about Christianity?
他对基督教有什么误解？
Well, he got a lot of things wrong.
嗯，他做错了很多事。
He’s not at all reliable in those four volumes, which of course I’ve read from cover to cover.
他在这四卷书中一点也不可靠，当然我已经从头到尾读完了。
What did he get wrong?
他做错了什么？
He didn’t really talk much about ancient Christianity.
他并没有真正谈论古代基督教。
It’s all about text.
一切都与文字有关。
He never looked at the nature of ancient society.
他从来没有审视过古代社会的本质。
He also has particular agendas — some of which I agree with, some of which I don’t — about power in relation to historical process.
他对于与历史进程相关的权力也有特定的议程——其中有些我同意，有些我不同意。
In general, I would advise people to take Michel Foucault with several pinches of salt.
总的来说，我建议人们对米歇尔·福柯持保留态度。
He was a pioneer in looking at same-sex relationships, and he was of a decade in which there were several pioneers.
他是研究同性关系的先驱，在他的十年里，有好几位先驱。
There was the American scholar John Boswell, for instance, writing about such matters.
例如，美国学者约翰·博斯韦尔（John Boswell）就曾写过此类问题。
There was an English scholar called Alan Bray.
有一位英国学者，名叫艾伦·布雷。
They’re real pioneers, the three of them, on such matters as same-sex relations, but they got a lot wrong.
在同性关系等问题上，他们三人是真正的先驱，但他们犯了很多错误。
It would not be right to start with them and not realize that they are historical texts.
从它们开始而不认识到它们是历史文本是不对的。
Now, in each case, actually, you can see that their perspective is distorted by their Roman Catholicism very specifically.
现在，实际上，在每种情况下，你都可以看到他们的观点被他们的罗马天主教非常具体地扭曲了。
Foucault, born into a Catholic family, never really left that world.
福柯出生于一个天主教家庭，从未真正离开过那个世界。
Bray and Boswell, converts to Roman Catholicism from Episcopalianism, or Anglicanism if you like.
布雷和博斯韦尔从圣公会信仰罗马天主教，或者如果你愿意的话也可以选择英国圣公会。
The concern with Bray and Boswell was always to set up a story which wasn’t really true, which was that Christianity had, over the centuries, actually been fairly hospitable to same-sex relations.
对布雷和博斯韦尔的关注总是建立一个不真实的故事，即几个世纪以来基督教实际上对同性关系相当友好。
You read Boswell now, 40 years later, and you see there’s a lot of special pleading in that; same with Bray.
40 年后的今天，你读博斯韦尔的书，你会发现其中有很多特殊的恳求；与布雷一样。
None of these historians are setting standards forever.
这些历史学家都没有永远设定标准。
Foucault made absurd assertions about the invention of homosexuality in the 19th century, simply because the word was coined in 1869.
福柯对 19 世纪同性恋的发明做出了荒谬的断言，仅仅因为这个词是在 1869 年创造的。
Well, that’s so stupid and so French.
好吧，这太愚蠢了，而且太法国了。
You see, actually, things which look precisely like modern, for-life, equal relationships between same-sex people way back.
事实上，你看到的事情看起来与现代同性之间终生平等的关系一模一样。
You can see it in the ancient world.
你可以在古代世界看到它。
It’s not the same as the normal, what you might call “normal” same-sex relationships, these unequal things.
这与正常的、你可能称之为“正常”的同性关系不同，这些不平等的事情。
The Foucault passion, seeing this as emerging as a sort of medicalization in the 19th century, just doesn’t stand up.
福柯的热情将其视为 19 世纪出现的一种医学化，但这种热情是站不住脚的。
It’s extremely misleading, and we should leave it behind.
这是极具误导性的，我们应该把它抛在脑后。
There’s a recent rise of interest in theories that attribute the rise of the West to the church banning cousin marriage, that this broke down clan structures.
最近人们对将西方的崛起归因于教会禁止表亲婚姻的理论越来越感兴趣，认为这打破了氏族结构。
What’s your view of that hypothesis?
您对这个假设有何看法？
It’s, as usual with such hypotheses, far too simple.
与通常的假设一样，它太简单了。
I don’t see that so at all.
我完全不这么认为。
Cousin marriages went on being a feature of Christianity, particularly if you’ve got a pope to dispense such marriages in the West.
表亲婚姻仍然是基督教的一个特点，特别是如果在西方有教皇主持这种婚姻的话。
What could one say about such a theory?
对于这样的理论，我们能说些什么呢？
Clans, families were not broken up by Christianity.
宗族、家庭并没有被基督教拆散。
By far, the reverse.
到目前为止，情况恰恰相反。
Those structures did not change very significantly.
这些结构没有发生太大变化。
No, I don’t think that really works at all.
不，我认为这根本不起作用。
On women in Christianity and Islam
关于基督教和伊斯兰教中的女性
Why does Islam so emphasize the sexual desires of women relative to Christianity?
为什么伊斯兰教相对于基督教如此强调女性的性欲？
A good question.
这是个好问题。
Because the Quran allows that to happen?
因为《古兰经》允许这种情况发生？
The Quran has been interpreted by men when very often what it’s talking about is just people, so that may be one explanation.
《古兰经》是由人来解释的，而它所谈论的往往只是人，所以这可能是一种解释。
Islam did remain very much a militarized culture to start with, so it’s almost by definition run by men.
伊斯兰教从一开始确实在很大程度上仍然是一种军事化文化，所以从定义上来说，它几乎是由男性统治的。
There within it, is a powerful set of images for women in the Quran itself.
其中蕴藏着《古兰经》本身对女性的一组强有力的形象。
On top of the Quran, there is so much added, and it’s usually added by male societies.
在《古兰经》之上，还添加了很多内容，而且通常是男性社会添加的。
So yes and no, really.
所以是和不是，真的。
There is a constant strain of things one can say about the position of women in Christianity.
关于女性在基督教中的地位，人们可以说的事情一直很紧张。
Women are constantly carving out parts of Christian faith for themselves, against the fact that men are increasingly running the church.
女性不断地为自己开拓基督教信仰的一部分，反对男性越来越多地管理教会的事实。
That’s a fact of life.
这是生活的事实。
Think of the mystics of the medieval West and the way in which so many of them are females.
想想中世纪西方的神秘主义者，以及他们中的许多人都是女性。
To be a mystic, you don’t need the male language of Latin, the language of the professions, the language of the clergy.
要成为一名神秘主义者，你不需要拉丁语这种男性语言、职业语言、神职人员的语言。
You can explore mysticism without the new invention of men in the 12th century — theology, which is something associated with, first, the cathedral schools and then the universities, both of which are male institutions.
你可以在没有12世纪男性新发明的情况下探索神秘主义——神学，神学首先与大教堂学校有关，然后与大学有关，两者都是男性机构。
But mysticism, no. You can just get on with it.
但神秘主义，不。你可以继续做下去。
It involves many of the same themes in every religion that turns to mysticism, themes like fire and water, air.
它涉及每个转向神秘主义的宗教中的许多相同主题，例如火、水、空气等主题。
The vocabulary of the mystic really is quite universal.
神秘主义者的词汇确实是相当普遍的。
It is not restricted to Christianity or Islam or anything.
它不限于基督教或伊斯兰教或任何其他东西。
It’s the way that one aspect of humanity works out when it tries to meet the divine.
这是人性的某一方面在试图与神相遇时所表现出来的方式。
Why is Islam sometimes, at least at the intellectual level, so obsessed with Mary?
为什么伊斯兰教有时（至少在知识层面上）如此迷恋玛丽？
You can debate whether she was a saint or a prophet.
你可以争论她是圣人还是先知。
In a way, the role in Christianity is much more circumscribed.
在某种程度上，基督教中的角色受到更多限制。
Oh, I wouldn’t say that.
哦，我不会这么说。
She appears more in the Holy Quran than she does in the Bible, of course, but that is clearly the influences on the creation of this book, which are probably forms of Christianity.
当然，她在《古兰经》中的出现比在《圣经》中出现的次数更多，但这显然是对本书创作的影响，这可能是基督教的形式。
Miaph is like Christianity in what is now the Arabian Peninsula.
米亚夫就像现在阿拉伯半岛的基督教。
Yes, she’s there and she is named, unlike, I think, any other woman in the Quran.
是的，她就在那里，她的名字与《古兰经》中的其他女性不同，我认为。
The relationship is therefore complex and interesting, but so is that of Jesus to the other prophets within Islam.
因此，这种关系是复杂而有趣的，耶稣与伊斯兰教中其他先知的关系也是如此。
He is given a place of great honor, and naturally, also his mother gets it.
他得到了一个非常荣耀的位置，自然，他的母亲也得到了它。
Mary’s position in Christianity is, as you know, complex.
如您所知，玛丽在基督教中的地位是复杂的。
It is a construction of the later church on extremely scanty evidence in the New Testament.
它是根据新约中极其缺乏的证据对后来的教会进行的建构。
The picture of Mary in the Gospels is not entirely positive.
福音书中对玛利亚的描绘并不完全正面。
The picture of Jesus’s relationship with his family, with his brothers and sisters is not entirely positive.
耶稣与家人、兄弟姐妹的关系并不完全是正面的。
On one occasion in the Gospels, they turned up to say, “Hi, we want to see him.”
在福音书中有一次，他们出现说：“嗨，我们想见他。”
Jesus looks around and says, “Well, actually, these people are my brothers and sisters.” Implication: you’re second class.
耶稣环顾四周说：“事实上，这些人是我的兄弟姐妹。”暗示：你是二等人。
One’s got to deal with that.
一个人必须处理这个问题。
The church ignored it as it created an increasingly central place for Mary as Queen of Heaven, the linchpin of salvation.
教会忽视了这一点，因为它为玛丽创造了一个日益中心的地位，她是天上的女王，是救赎的关键。
It ignored the fact that the foundations in the New Testament are scanty.
它忽略了新约圣经基础薄弱的事实。
It took the Protestant reformers of the 16th century, actually, to look at the Bible and look back at that and gleefully, in some cases, see that Jesus could be quite offhand with his mother and his family.
事实上，16世纪的新教改革者们才仔细研究了《圣经》，并在某些情况下欣喜地回顾了圣经，发现耶稣对他的母亲和家人可以非常随心所欲。
Now, one needs to ask, why does the New Testament treat family members like this?
现在，有人要问，为什么新约如此对待家庭成员呢？
I think one way you can account for it is by saying that the New Testament is written by the winners in a very particular conflict, and that is the conflict as to who is going to lead the church after Jesus.
我认为你可以解释的一种方法是，新约是由胜利者在一个非常特殊的冲突中写成的，那就是关于谁将在耶稣之后领导教会的冲突。
Is it going to be the family?
会是家人吗？
Is this going to be a dynastic religion?
这会是一个王朝宗教吗？
James, the brother of the Lord, is one of the first people who are powerful within the church.
主的兄弟雅各是教会中最早有权势的人之一。
Or is it people who, like Paul of Tarsus, never actually met in his earthly life Jesus?
或者是像塔尔苏斯的保罗一样，在尘世生活中从未真正见过耶稣的人？
The balance in that conflict is eventually won by the general number of disciples, not the family.
这场冲突的平衡最终是由广大弟子而非家族赢得的。
So, you would expect the text created by that side of the battle to be somewhat dismissive of Jesus’s family.
因此，你可能会认为战斗那一方所创造的文本对耶稣的家人有些不屑一顾。
The same thing is true of Islam, of course, between who is going to be in charge of the faith in future.
当然，对于伊斯兰教来说，同样的情况也适用于谁将负责未来的信仰。
Sunni Islam against Shia Islam have two different answers to that question.
逊尼派伊斯兰教和什叶派伊斯兰教对这个问题有两种不同的答案。
It’s not dissimilar to what happened within Islam.
这与伊斯兰教内部发生的情况没有什么不同。
On the medieval church building boom
中世纪教堂建筑的繁荣
If I think of the 12th and 13th centuries in England and France, parts of Spain, there are so many just incredible cathedrals or religious structures built, many of them still with us.
想想 12 世纪和 13 世纪的英国、法国和西班牙部分地区，有很多令人难以置信的大教堂或宗教建筑，其中许多仍然存在于我们身边。
What accounts for so many marvelous creations in what, in a sense, is a relatively narrow window of time?
是什么在某种意义上相对狭窄的时间窗口内创造出如此多的奇妙创造？
You’re right.
你说得对。
Scholars from the James brothers onwards have talked about this, the age of the cathedrals.
从詹姆斯兄弟开始的学者们就一直在谈论大教堂的时代。
It’s really quite difficult to account for it in any way.
无论以何种方式来解释它都非常困难。
You’ve got to realize also that such wonderful, magnificent buildings, one of which I was speaking in last night, Gloucester Cathedral in western England, were there alongside monasteries.
你还必须意识到，如此美妙、宏伟的建筑，我昨晚在英格兰西部的格洛斯特大教堂演讲的其中之一，就在修道院旁边。
In fact, Gloucester Cathedral was a great abbey before it was a cathedral.
事实上，格洛斯特大教堂在成为大教堂之前就是一座伟大的修道院。
What are these saying?
这些人在说什么？
They’re saying one thing: that the church in the West now had a very strong, tight organization by bishops and dioceses, in which the mother church of the dioceses was a building of very great charisma and importance, and had a set of clergy attached to it — canons, who were as much a corporation as the corporation of monks within an abbey — and they benefited from this industry of prayer about which we were speaking earlier, that the elites of Western Europe needed prayer.
他们说的是一件事：西方的教会现在有一个由主教和教区组成的非常强大、严密的组织，其中教区的母教堂是一座非常有魅力和重要性的建筑，并且有一组神职人员附属于它——“教士，他们就像修道院内僧侣的团体一样是一个团体”——他们从我们之前谈到的这种祈祷行业中受益，西欧的精英需要祈祷。
They needed people to pray for their souls.
他们需要人们为他们的灵魂祈祷。
The laity, generally, also wanted prayer because the Western church was developing a particular view of the afterlife in which it is no longer that simple binary.
一般来说，平信徒也需要祈祷，因为西方教会正在发展一种特殊的来世观，不再是那么简单的二元论。
It is not just heaven and hell.
这不仅仅是天堂和地狱。
There is a state in the middle, purgatory, which is a wonderfully useful way to characterize the afterlife because purgatory is where you can go on being purged of your sins.
中间有一种状态，炼狱，这是描述来世的一种非常有用的方式，因为炼狱是你可以继续净化罪孽的地方。
You do that with the help of your friends and the clergy in their prayers, particularly in the Mass.
你可以在朋友和神职人员的祈祷帮助下做到这一点，特别是在弥撒中。
Purgatory is a big thing here.
炼狱在这里是一件大事。
Cathedrals are full of altars, just like abbey churches.
大教堂里到处都是祭坛，就像修道院教堂一样。
Look around them, and you see the innumerable side chapels there.
环顾四周，你会看到那里有无数的小教堂。
These are factories of prayer, and that is worth spending money on.
这些都是祷告的工厂，值得花钱。
And hurrah, they did because we are left with this amazing legacy of wonderful buildings.
万岁，他们这么做了，因为我们留下了这些令人惊叹的建筑遗产。
Is there some institutional innovation from decentralized bishops competing against each other through monastic orders?
分散的主教们是否通过修道会相互竞争而进行了一些制度创新？
Something’s paying for all this, right?
这一切都是有代价的，对吗？
Yes.
是的。
The secular nobility are paying for it because they’re endowing these places with land for the sake of prayer.
世俗贵族为此付出了代价，因为他们为了祈祷而向这些地方捐赠了土地。
It is not exactly a decentralized system.
它不完全是一个分散的系统。
It is a system, you must remember, which actually, literally covers the map of Europe.
您必须记住，这是一个系统，实际上它覆盖了欧洲地图。
There are virtually no places not contained within the system.
几乎没有任何地方不包含在系统内。
Within the diocese, that is the institution run by the bishop, are what are called parishes, which again, virtually cover the map of Europe.
在主教管理的教区内，有所谓的教区，它们实际上覆盖了欧洲的地图。
Not that they had maps, but they knew the boundaries of every parish.
他们并不是有地图，但他们知道每个教区的边界。
A parish is a very interesting institution.
教区是一个非常有趣的机构。
It’s new in the 9th century onwards in the West.
从九世纪开始，它在西方才出现。
The idea is that you have one priest in each of these parishes, and the area of land that he patrols is more or less patrollable in a day, that he can meet and visit all his parishioners.
这个想法是，每个教区都有一名牧师，他巡逻的土地或多或少可以在一天内巡逻，这样他就可以会见并拜访所有教区居民。
I speak with feeling about this because I am the son of one of those parish priests in the Church of England, and his first parish — in which I grew up — was about a couple of square miles each way.
我满怀感情地谈论这一点，因为我是英国国教教区牧师之一的儿子，而他的第一个教区——我长大的地方——每条路大约有几平方英里。
He could have walked it and often did.
他本可以走过去，而且经常这样做。
This is an extraordinarily effective way of giving everyone in Europe pastoral care.
这是为欧洲每个人提供精神关怀的极其有效的方式。
In fact, not just the nobility.
事实上，不仅仅是贵族。
The nobility get the deluxe end of it with the great monastery, the endowments of cathedrals, but everyone has a parish church.
贵族们通过伟大的修道院和大教堂的捐赠获得了奢华的结局，但每个人都拥有一座教区教堂。
It’s an extraordinarily wonderfully integrated system.
这是一个极其完美的集成系统。
I think we, with a Western tradition, often forget how absolutely unusual that is within world religions, to have a single form of a religion absolutely dominating everything within a particular continent.
我认为，我们有着西方的传统，经常忘记在世界宗教中，单一形式的宗教绝对主宰特定大陆的一切，这是多么不寻常。
Nothing else like it, except perhaps Saudi Arabia in the 20th and 21st centuries.
除了 20 世纪和 21 世纪的沙特阿拉伯之外，没有其他地方可以与之相比。
Don’t you find it striking how few of those structures are mediocre?
您难道不觉得这些建筑中很少有平庸的吗？
There may be some survival bias, but it’s very hard to just find an ugly-looking church from that time.
可能存在一些生存偏差，但很难找到当时的样子丑陋的教堂。
Well, it’s maybe the way we look at them.
好吧，这可能就是我们看待他们的方式。
I’m a huge enthusiast for them all and spend my spare time looking around them all.
我对它们都是狂热的爱好者，并利用业余时间四处观察它们。
But could one say that they are actually superlatively wonderful?
但我们能说它们实际上是非常精彩的吗？
I think our way of looking at them makes them such.
我认为我们看待它们的方式使得它们如此。
They are hallowed by the fact that they have been there for so long, that they are sacred places in which prayer has been valid to “an English poet.”
它们之所以被神圣化，是因为它们已经存在了很长时间，它们是神圣的地方，对“一位英国诗人”来说，祈祷在这里是有效的。
It’s a wonderful thing they’re still there.
他们还在那里真是太棒了。
As you know, in England, we still have that rather unusual thing, an established church which is there to administer all of them, look after all of them.
如你所知，在英国，我们仍然有一个相当不寻常的事情，一个既定的教会，在那里管理所有的人，照顾他们所有的人。
You can walk from church to church, and so many of them are still medieval.
你可以从一个教堂步行到另一个教堂，其中很多仍然是中世纪的。
Yes, it’s a wonderful thing.
是的，这是一件美妙的事情。
True, of course, in Eastern Orthodox places too, in Greece, in Bulgaria.
当然，在东正教地方也是如此，在希腊、在保加利亚。
If you had to pick a favorite in England, what would it be?
如果你必须在英格兰选出一个最喜欢的人，你会选择什么？
Oh, now you asked me an impossible question there.
哦，现在你问了我一个不可能的问题。
Probably, I would say it is the church which my dad served when I was a little boy, when I was four to twenty, the Church of St. Mary in Wetherden in East Anglia in the county of Suffolk, a church in which you had every architectural style from the 12th century through to the 20th, the furnishings of every age.
也许，我会说这是我父亲在我还是个小男孩时服务的教堂，当时我四岁到二十岁，是萨福克郡东安格利亚韦瑟登的圣玛丽教堂，这座教堂里有从十二世纪到二十世纪的各种建筑风格，各个时代的家具。
Parts of the building added at various times.
建筑物的部分部分是在不同时期添加的。
It was a wonderful textbook for a bookish boy like me to grow up with.
对于我这样一个书生气十足的男孩来说，这是一本很棒的教科书。
I mentally apply that church to every church that I visit afterwards, however huge, like Gloucester Cathedral last night.
我在心里将这座教堂应用到我之后参观的每座教堂，无论它有多大，就像昨晚的格洛斯特大教堂。
On the Reformation’s uneven spread and Luther’s marriage mandate
论宗教改革的不均衡传播和路德的婚姻使命
Why are there still a fair number of English Catholics, but so few in the Nordic countries?
为什么英国天主教徒的数量仍然不少，而北欧国家的天主教徒却如此之少？
Now, an interesting question.
现在，一个有趣的问题。
Lutheranism became much more universal in the Nordic countries.
路德教在北欧国家变得更加普遍。
Catholicism did not survive there.
天主教在那里没有生存下来。
The monarchies of these countries were, I think, much more thorough-going in suppressing it.
我认为，这些国家的君主政体在镇压它方面要彻底得多。
I think the nobility also decided to go over to the Reformation fairly uniformly in Sweden, Norway, Denmark.
我认为瑞典、挪威、丹麦的贵族们也相当一致地决定转向宗教改革。
Of course, it does matter when the nobility make decisions.
当然，贵族做出的决定确实很重要。
In England, they were divided.
在英格兰，他们是分裂的。
Quite a lot of the nobility and gentry did stick with the old faith, maybe because they admired many of the bishops of the old church.
相当多的贵族和士绅确实坚守着旧的信仰，也许是因为他们钦佩旧教会的许多主教。
I did a little work of research on this in my younger days, in which you could see that those gentry who stayed Catholic after the Reformation were often those who had personal ties to the great bishops of the pre-Reformation church.
我年轻时对此做过一些研究，从中可以看出，那些在宗教改革之后仍然坚持天主教的士绅往往是那些与宗教改革前教会的伟大主教有私人联系的人。
Yes, the picture is very different in England to that in Scandinavia.
是的，英格兰的情况与斯堪的纳维亚半岛的情况非常不同。
Also, remember that extraordinary counter case, the case of Ireland, where the government became Protestant as it did in England, but the great bulk of the population did not go with it.
另外，请记住一个非同寻常的反例，即爱尔兰的例子，那里的政府像英国一样皈依了新教，但绝大多数民众并不认同。
The story of Ireland is a story of the rejection of the religion of the upper classes right through to the present day, when they’ve now rejected so much of Catholicism too.
爱尔兰的故事是一个上层阶级拒绝宗教的故事，直到今天，他们现在也拒绝了天主教。
Fascinating different stories next to each other there.
迷人的不同故事彼此相邻。
Now, you’re one of the best-known historians of the Reformation, and there’s a very standard account.
现在，您是最著名的宗教改革历史学家之一，并且有一个非常标准的叙述。
The printing press comes.
印刷机来了。
Well, Bibles can be published and printed more easily, more cheaply.
嗯，圣经可以更容易、更便宜地出版和印刷。
That leads to the Reformation.
这导致了宗教改革。
Are there any aspects of that story that you’re skeptical about?
您对这个故事的任何方面持怀疑态度吗？
No, I wouldn’t say I’m skeptical about that.
不，我不会说我对此持怀疑态度。
It’s certainly true that the circulation of texts, particularly biblical texts, is really very important in late medieval Europe.
确实，文本的流通，特别是圣经文本，在中世纪晚期的欧洲确实非常重要。
It’s not that the Catholic Church, in general, forbade such texts.
一般来说，天主教会并不禁止此类文本。
It just didn’t see where they might lead.
它只是没有看到他们可能会走向何方。
But I think there’s something very significant about the Reformation which is underplayed.
但我认为宗教改革有一些非常重要的东西被低估了。
Those who know about it and talk about it — look at Martin Luther, for instance — they use a piece of theological jargon about the Protestant Reformation.
那些了解它并谈论它的人——比如看看马丁·路德——他们使用一段关于新教改革的神学术语。
They talk of justification by faith alone.
他们谈论唯独因信称义。
Who knows what that means?
谁知道这意味着什么？
Well, what it means is that salvation is really in the hands of God, not in the hands of the clergy.
嗯，这意味着救赎实际上掌握在上帝手中，而不是掌握在神职人员手中。
Now, that’s the important thing, that one of the things which Martin Luther did very quickly as he began unfurling his own instincts about the need for change in the church was to make sure that the clergy once more would marry.
现在，这是重要的事情，当马丁·路德开始展现自己对教会变革的本能时，他很快做的事情之一就是确保神职人员再次结婚。
They would become like laymen in that they had an equal right to have marriage and families, and that made them the same as the rest of the world.
他们会变得像外行人一样，因为他们拥有平等的婚姻和家庭权利，这使他们与世界其他人一样。
Martin Luther’s concept of the old church, the church he was rejecting, was one which had played a huge confidence trick on the laity of Europe by saying that clergy are special, and the way we’re going to make them special is by making them celibate.
马丁·路德对旧教会的概念，即他所拒绝的教会，对欧洲的平信徒来说是一个巨大的信任骗局，他说神职人员是特殊的，而我们要让他们变得特殊的方法就是让他们独身。
So, making all clergy married, which is effectively what happened in the Protestant Reformation, absolutely transforms the rules on marriage and sexuality generally because from then on, actually, the clerical family is the model of the Christian life.
因此，让所有神职人员结婚，这实际上是新教改革中发生的事情，绝对改变了婚姻和性行为的规则，因为从那时起，实际上，神职人员家庭就是基督徒生活的典范。
Previously, the model of the Christian life had been that of the monk, the celibate clergy, the celibate priest, and now that is absolutely reversed.
以前，基督徒生活的模式是修道士、独身神职人员、独身神父，现在完全相反了。
Protestants destroyed most of the monasteries.
新教徒摧毁了大部分修道院。
Yet a few in Lutheran countries, but very few.
在路德教国家也有一些，但很少。
Otherwise, this absolutely central part of medieval Western Christianity, the monastery, was absolutely eliminated.
否则，中世纪西方基督教的绝对中心部分——修道院——就被彻底消灭了。
What is in its place?
它的位置是什么？
The parish, the minister in his parish with his wife, with his children, one of whom is me.
教区，他教区的牧师和他的妻子，还有他的孩子，我就是其中之一。
I’m particularly passionate about this thought, that Protestantism put the minister on the pedestal as the way that all Christians should live, not just clergy.
我对这个想法特别感兴趣，即新教将牧师视为所有基督徒（而不仅仅是神职人员）应该生活方式的方式。
All Christians could take the model of marriage and family from the clergy.
所有基督徒都可以从神职人员那里学习婚姻和家庭的模式。
On the English Reformation under the Tudors
论都铎王朝时期的英国宗教改革
As you well know, if we look at Henrician England, some key figures like Cromwell, Cranmer, Wolsey — they don’t come from very exalted backgrounds, right?
众所周知，如果我们看看亨利克时代的英格兰，克伦威尔、克兰麦、沃尔西等一些关键人物——他们的出身并不十分高贵，对吧？
They started off as quite common.
它们一开始很常见。
There’s something meritocratic about the society.
社会上有一些精英主义。
How does that happen?
这是怎么发生的？
Or where does that come from?
或者说它从何而来？
How do they climb?
他们如何攀爬？
They climb by being clever, and they climb by the fact that the first two Tudor monarchs did encourage them to do so because Henry VII, the first of the Tudor monarchs, was the most unlikely person in English history to become a monarch.
他们通过聪明来攀登，而他们的攀登是因为前两位都铎君主确实鼓励他们这样做，因为都铎王朝的第一位君主亨利七世是英国历史上最不可能成为君主的人。
His claim to the throne was laughably weak.
他对王位的要求微弱得可笑。
There were very many people among the English nobility who had far more royal blood than he did.
英国贵族中有很多人比他更有王室血统。
He frankly didn’t trust many of these people, virtually none of whom he’d ever met before he came to the throne, the English throne.
坦率地说，他并不信任这些人中的许多人，在他登上英国王位之前，他几乎从未见过他们。
He’d been in exile for a very long time.
他已经流亡很长一段时间了。
So, he’s going to look around for those people to lead his government who are not necessarily aristocratic at all.
因此，他将四处寻找那些不一定是贵族的人来领导他的政府。
They are there by merit.
他们是凭功绩在那里的。
His son, Henry VIII, did inherit that thought.
他的儿子亨利八世确实继承了这一思想。
Henry did like doing aristocratic things with aristocrats, like jousting, for instance.
亨利确实喜欢和贵族们一起做贵族式的事情，比如比武。
That impulse began to weaken under Henry VIII rather than Henry VII.
这种冲动在亨利八世而非亨利七世时期开始减弱。
You see in Henry VIII’s quite long reign, an alternating pattern between the capable man of affairs who has made his way up with royal encouragement, and the nobleman who feels entitled to have his position in government.
在亨利八世相当长的统治时期，你可以看到，在皇室的鼓励下取得成功的有能力的实务家和自认为有权在政府中占有一席之地的贵族之间的交替模式。
Henry’s always slapping down one and then slapping down the other.
亨利总是先打倒一个，然后又打倒另一个。
Poor Wolsey didn’t deliver the goods, so he was slapped down.
可怜的沃尔西没有交付货物，所以他被打倒了。
Cromwell famously also lost the plot, failed to deliver a marriage which Henry liked, in fact, created a humiliating marriage, and he lost his head.
众所周知，克伦威尔也失败了，未能实现亨利喜欢的婚姻，事实上，创造了一段耻辱的婚姻，他失去了理智。
Cranmer survived, remember.
记住，克兰麦活了下来。
He survived by loyalty to King Henry VIII, and I think he genuinely loved Henry VIII, and so served him with a good conscience.
他因对亨利八世国王的忠诚而幸存下来，我认为他真诚地爱着亨利八世，因此凭着良心为他服务。
Trouble about that is that a man like Henry VIII is a narcissist.
问题在于像亨利八世这样的人是一个自恋者。
I think we may have seen some in modern politics.
我想我们在现代政治中可能已经看到了一些。
The thing about narcissists is that they make good people do bad things.
自恋者的特点是他们让好人做坏事。
Henry VIII was talented at making good people, such as Cranmer and, I would say, Thomas Cromwell, do bad things.
亨利八世很擅长培养好人，比如克兰麦，我想说的是托马斯·克伦威尔，做坏事。
How does William Byrd survive as a Catholic?
威廉·伯德作为天主教徒如何生存？
Is that also meritocracy?
这也是精英主义吗？
Oh, yes, it is.
哦，是的，是的。
By being a composer of genius and having a patroness, the queen, who appreciated very good music.
作为一位天才作曲家和一位欣赏优秀音乐的赞助人女王。
Elizabeth was a Protestant, but she was a slightly odd sort of Protestant.
伊丽莎白是一名新教徒，但她是一个有点奇怪的新教徒。
She disapproved very intensely of religious fanaticism of any sort.
她非常反对任何形式的宗教狂热。
She had an eye for beauty in music and architecture.
她对音乐和建筑之美有着敏锐的洞察力。
Music is actually rather cheaper for a monarch to patronize than lavish buildings.
对于君主来说，购买音乐实际上比购买豪华建筑要便宜得多。
Doesn’t cost so much.
不需要花那么多钱。
She also genuinely loved it.
她也发自内心地喜欢它。
She was the person who saved the English cathedral in the wonderful form that I experienced it at Gloucester last night.
她以我昨晚在格洛斯特所经历的美妙形式拯救了英国大教堂。
She approved of cathedrals because she approved of their music.
她认可大教堂是因为她认可大教堂的音乐。
She gave patronage to the choirs and had her own choir, the Chapel Royal, which encouraged the cathedrals to go on doing this really rather elaborate form of music.
她赞助合唱团，并拥有自己的合唱团——皇家教堂，鼓励大教堂继续创作这种相当精致的音乐形式。
It’s more elaborate than any other form of Protestantism, even the Lutherans, whose music can be very elaborate.
它比任何其他形式的新教都要精致，甚至比路德宗的音乐也更精致。
Now, if you want to look at the most important person in the whole English Reformation, the person who set the patterns for the Church of England and England as a whole in the 16th century, it’s Queen Elizabeth I.
现在，如果你想看看整个英国宗教改革中最重要的人物，即为 16 世纪英国国教和整个英格兰设定模式的人，那就是伊丽莎白女王一世。
It’s not Henry VIII.
这不是亨利八世。
It’s Elizabeth I.
这是伊丽莎白一世。
On the music of the English Renaissance
论英国文艺复兴时期的音乐
How is it that English Renaissance music is so wonderful, but by the time you get to the 18th century, you’re having to import Germans and Austrians, basically, for your musical life?
为什么英国文艺复兴时期的音乐如此美妙，但到了 18 世纪，你的音乐生活基本上就不得不进口德国和奥地利的音乐了？
What happened?
发生了什么？
You’re right.
你说得对。
What happened?
发生了什么？
A run of quite exceptional composers.
一批非常杰出的作曲家。
In late medieval England, there is an extraordinarily lavish and beautiful style of music, which the Reformation more or less dismantled.
在中世纪晚期的英国，有一种异常奢华和优美的音乐风格，但宗教改革或多或少地摧毁了这种风格。
But some of the practitioners jumped ship and served the Protestant Church.
但一些练习者跳槽并为新教教会服务。
Thomas Tallis is the obvious example, a composer of international standard.
托马斯·塔利斯（Thomas Tallis）就是一个明显的例子，他是一位具有国际水准的作曲家。
William Byrd is the next generation.
威廉·伯德是下一代。
Byrd did serve the Church of England, of course, to start with, and went on serving it in the Queen’s Chapel Royal.
当然，伯德一开始确实为英国国教服务，并继续在女王皇家礼拜堂服务。
But then, you’re right.
但是，你是对的。
There is this curious paradox that, in the 17th century, the tradition became, well, you could call it international, in that Germans in particular came to this country to work for the new Protestant Hanoverian monarchs, and were extraordinarily good at it.
有一个奇怪的悖论，在17世纪，这一传统变得，嗯，你可以称之为国际化，因为德国人特别来到这个国家为新教汉诺威君主工作，并且非常擅长于此。
We were extraordinarily lucky to get George Friedrich Handel and turn him into George Frederick Handel, an English composer, to become more or less the English composer of his period.
我们非常幸运地得到了乔治·弗里德里希·亨德尔（George Friedrich Handel），并将他变成了英国作曲家乔治·弗雷德里克·亨德尔（George Frederick Handel），或多或少成为了他那个时代的英国作曲家。
You think of the great coronation music that he wrote for that deeply undistinguished king, George II.
你会想到他为那位非常不起眼的国王乔治二世创作的伟大的加冕音乐。
That produced the wonderful anthem, Zadok the Priest and Nathan the Prophet, the most triumphant Protestant choral music you can think of.
这产生了美妙的赞歌《牧师扎多克和先知内森》，这是你能想到的最胜利的新教合唱音乐。
But you’re right.
但你是对的。
There’s a paradox.
这是一个悖论。
Sixteenth century England was right at the center of beautiful music, just as much as Palestrina’s Italy.
十六世纪的英国正处于优美音乐的中心，就像帕莱斯特里纳的意大利一样。
In the 17th century, it all tailed off a bit, and it wasn’t until, really, the late 19th century that England became once more internationally respected as a place of church music, and music generally.
到了 17 世纪，这一切都有所减弱，直到 19 世纪末，英国才再次作为教堂音乐和音乐之地而受到国际尊重。
What is it in organ music that has the greatest meaning to you as a statement of either religiosity or Christianity, if you want to make it more specific?
如果你想让它更具体的话，在风琴音乐中，作为宗教信仰或基督教的表达，对你来说最有意义的是什么？
Well, an easy question for an organist.
对于管风琴演奏家来说，这是一个简单的问题。
Of course, Johann Sebastian Bach.
当然是约翰·塞巴斯蒂安·巴赫。
So versatile.
如此多才多艺。
Which pieces?
哪些作品？
I would say the Trio Sonatas, but what’s your nomination?
我会说三重奏奏鸣曲，但你的提名是什么？
I find them intimidating, frankly, because I find them very difficult to play.
坦白说，我觉得它们很吓人，因为我发现它们很难玩。
I look rather to the chorale prelude tradition, which can be extraordinarily intimidatingly difficult, but has some staggeringly beautiful and devotionally heart-rending music because, of course, it is the Lutheran chorale.
我更喜欢合唱前奏曲的传统，它可能非常困难，但有一些令人惊叹的美丽和虔诚的令人心碎的音乐，因为，当然，它是路德教会的合唱。
Bach was working from a musical tradition he knew very well, which was very specifically Lutheran, though he, of course, did other things too.
巴赫所遵循的音乐传统是他非常熟悉的，这是非常具体的路德教，尽管他当然也做了其他事情。
He did the great B Minor Mass, which has nothing, really, to do with Lutheranism at all.
他做了伟大的B小调弥撒，这实际上与路德教毫无关系。
The chorale prelude is a wonderful vehicle of Christian sentiment.
合唱前奏曲是基督教情感的美妙载体。
I think of chorale preludes, one I played a week ago at Evensong, In my hour of need I cry to thee, O God.
我想起一周前我在晚祷时演奏的合唱前奏曲，上帝啊，在我需要帮助的时刻，我向你哭泣。
It’s a Lutheran chorale, but he most gently plays with the melody over a tune which he has invented for himself, and they interact.
这是一首路德教会的合唱曲，但他在自己发明的曲调上最温柔地演奏旋律，他们互动。
So Bach, of course, and the fugues and the preludes with which they are prefaced are extraordinary.
当然，巴赫及其开头的赋格曲和前奏曲都是非凡的。
It’s a wonderful way of losing yourself amid the miseries of the present world.
这是在当今世界的苦难中迷失自我的好方法。
You may remember that, in the days of the communist regime in Eastern Europe, organ recitals were crowded out because of the way that the general public could connect with the transcendent in a regime which denied the transcendent.
你可能还记得，在东欧共产主义政权时代，管风琴演奏会被排除在外，因为在一个否认超验的政权中，公众可以通过这种方式与超验联系起来。
There’s a lovely phrase from an English bishop of the 20th century, Bishop Charles Gore, great theologian.
20 世纪英国主教、伟大的神学家查尔斯·戈尔主教有一句可爱的话。
He went to hear a Brandenburg concerto in the concert hall.
他去音乐厅听了勃兰登堡协奏曲。
He was a gruff man.
他是个粗暴的人。
As he walked out, he was heard to mutter, “If that’s true, everything must be all right.” That’s true with Bach.
当他走出去的时候，听见他嘀咕道：“如果是这样的话，那就万事大吉了。”巴赫也是如此。
He is a symbol of the transcendency beyond our human idiocy and frequent evil towards something which connects us to the divine.
他是超越我们人类的愚蠢和经常邪恶的超越的象征，将我们与神圣联系起来。
To me, there’s something unique and special and lasting about C.
对我来说，C 有一些独特、特殊和持久的东西。
S.
S。
Lewis.
刘易斯.
He writes fiction and nonfiction with success.
他在小说和非小说方面都取得了成功。
Extremely smart, a tremendous writer.
非常聪明，一位出色的作家。
He’s both deep and very popular.
他既深沉又很受欢迎。
Can the contemporary world produce another C.
当代世界能否再产生一个C.
S.
S。
Lewis, or has that somehow become impossible?
刘易斯，或者这已经变得不可能了？
I doubt it’s impossible.
我怀疑这是不可能的。
I don’t quite share your universal admiration of Lewis.
我不太同意你对刘易斯的普遍钦佩。
I think the children’s fiction is really quite manipulative.
我认为儿童小说确实具有很强的操控性。
In which case, talking of children’s fiction, I would look to Philip Pullman, who, of course, isn’t a formal Christian believer, but seems to me to talk about profound issues in a way which can engage children very much.
在这种情况下，谈到儿童小说，我会关注菲利普·普尔曼，他当然不是正式的基督教信徒，但在我看来，他以一种非常能吸引孩子的方式谈论深刻的问题。
I guess one could look to Rowan Williams, and I would look to the poetry of our former Archbishop of Canterbury as perhaps his most lasting work.
我想人们可以看看罗恩·威廉姆斯，而我则认为我们前坎特伯雷大主教的诗歌也许是他最持久的作品。
I would, of course, also look to T.S.
当然，我也会关注 T.S.
Eliot, who, I guess, predates Lewis.
艾略特，我猜他的年龄早于刘易斯。
Eliot says some very profound things connecting him to that tradition, which I know so well, that of Anglicanism.
艾略特说了一些非常深刻的事情，将他与我所熟知的英国国教传统联系起来。
These things happen, and when you least expect them.
这些事情会在你最意想不到的时候发生。
Geniuses emerge like John Bunyan, ordinary man in 17th-century Bedfordshire, creating this extraordinary work of Christian meditation, though at the center of it are themes of which I am a little suspicious, Calvinist predestination.
像 17 世纪贝德福德郡的普通人约翰·班扬 (John Bunyan) 一样的天才涌现，创作了这部非凡的基督教冥想作品，尽管它的中心主题是我有点怀疑的加尔文主义宿命论。
They keep coming, and I don’t think we should be worried about them never coming again.
他们不断地来，我认为我们不应该担心他们再也不会来了。
On the sustainability of Christianity
论基督教的可持续性
Has it surprised you how rapidly Anglicanism has declined?
英国圣公宗衰落的速度如此之快，你是否感到惊讶？
There are just fewer Anglicans, right?
英国圣公会教徒越来越少，对吗？
Arguably, the number one religion in England is Islam.
可以说，英格兰第一大宗教是伊斯兰教。
No, not really.
不，不是真的。
Anglicanism has not declined worldwide.
英国圣公会在世界范围内并没有衰落。
It has shifted its position.
它已经改变了立场。
But in England, it’s not high, right?
但在英国，这个比例并不高，对吧？
In England, its numbers have gone down because you no longer need to have it as a means of becoming respectable.
在英国，它的数量已经下降，因为你不再需要将它作为变得受人尊敬的手段。
We’re a much more varied culture than we were even when I was a boy.
我们的文化比我小时候更加多样化。
It was a very white and rather boring culture then.
那时的文化非常白人且相当无聊。
It is now exhilaratingly multicultural.
现在它是令人兴奋的多元文化。
Yes, Islam is part of that, and so is Hinduism.
是的，伊斯兰教是其中的一部分，印度教也是如此。
There are more Hindus in the UK than there are Muslims.
英国的印度教徒比穆斯林还多。
They’re not so prominent, I think.
我认为他们并不那么突出。
And there are plenty of Sikhs.
还有很多锡克教徒。
We have become a multi-faith country.
我们已经成为一个多信仰的国家。
At the center of it is still the Church of England, and the Church of Rome has done reasonably well in recent years because it’s constantly being replenished from outside the country by immigration.
它的中心仍然是英国教会，而罗马教会近年来表现相当不错，因为它不断从国外通过移民补充。
The great thing about the Church of England is that it has this now rather unusual mission to the entire nation.
英国国教的伟大之处在于它对整个国家肩负着现在相当不寻常的使命。
My dad was proud of being able to talk to anybody in his parish, whether they came to church or not.
我父亲为能够与他教区的任何人交谈而感到自豪，无论他们是否来教堂。
The Church of England is that one body within the nation which exists to minister to those beyond its walls and not those who come.
英国圣公会是国家内部的一个机构，其存在的目的是为墙外的人服务，而不是为那些来到的人服务。
That seems to be a rather precious thing to have.
这似乎是一件相当珍贵的事情。
It is also appreciated by the other faiths.
它也受到其他信仰的赞赏。
Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs are pleased that there is an established church at the center of our country, because it is a symbol of the importance, the seriousness of religion.
穆斯林、印度教徒、锡克教徒很高兴在我们国家的中心有一座教堂，因为它是宗教重要性和严肃性的象征。
It’s a happy set of relationships.
这是一组幸福的关系。
I look again to our parish churches, all the thousands of them, and our cathedrals.
我再次审视我们的教区教堂，成千上万的教区教堂，以及我们的大教堂。
Our cathedrals are an enormous success story at the present day.
如今，我们的大教堂是一个巨大的成功故事。
Attendance to cathedrals is rising.
参观大教堂的人数正在增加。
Numbers through the door.
门外的数字。
Visitors beyond congregations are increasing.
会众以外的访客正在增加。
They have a mission to educate, to inspire through traditional liturgy, which is absolutely flourishing.
他们的使命是通过传统的礼拜仪式进行教育和启发，这绝对是蓬勃发展的。
It has financial problems, but it is in no way in a state of decay.
它有财务问题，但它绝不处于衰退状态。
So, I’m rather more sanguine about the Church of England than you might be.
所以，我对英国国教的看法比你更乐观。
But I see numbers published that say 5 percent of Englishmen go to church.
但我看到公布的数据显示，5% 的英国人去教堂。
If you just pulled white native-born Englishmen: “Do you believe in the Trinity?” How many millions would say yes compared to the number of Sikhs, Hindus, and Muslims that would profess a loyalty to their religions?
如果你只是拉出土生土长的英国白人：“你相信三位一体吗？”与声称忠于其宗教的锡克教徒、印度教徒和穆斯林的数量相比，有多少万人会同意？
Is it, in terms of actual belief, now a minority religion in England?
就实际信仰而言，它现在是英国的少数宗教吗？
I think you’re comparing apples and carrots, really, because what you’d be examining with Muslims, Sikhs, and Hindus is a religion based on practice, not on systematic thought or theology.
我认为你实际上是在比较苹果和胡萝卜，因为你要对穆斯林、锡克教徒和印度教徒审视的是一种基于实践的宗教，而不是基于系统思想或神学。
These are religions of orthopraxy, to use a piece of technical jargon, not orthodoxy.
用专业术语来说，这些是正统宗教，而不是正统宗教。
That makes you a very different sort of practitioner of religion.
这使你成为一种非常不同的宗教实践者。
Christianity, Anglicanism — they’re religions in which you may know a lot about technical matters, but you may not.
基督教、英国国教——在这些宗教中，你可能了解很多技术问题，但也可能不了解。
You may do what the Hindu does and just go into a sacred space.
你可以像印度教徒那样，进入一个神圣的空间。
That is a very common attitude within English religion, and it seems to me a perfectly healthy one.
这是英国宗教中一种非常普遍的态度，在我看来这是一种完全健康的态度。
Doctrine, theology — yes, Christianity is a religion of such things, but that’s not all that there is to it.
教义、神学——是的，基督教是这样的宗教，但这并不是它的全部。
Do think it’s possible to have a sustainable Christianity without strong beliefs in hell?
你认为在没有对地狱的强烈信仰的情况下，有可能有一个可持续的基督教吗？
If I think of America, where I live, a lot of Americans either still believe in hell or at least proclaim they do, and they’re not outright lying.
如果我想到我居住的美国，很多美国人要么仍然相信地狱，要么至少宣称他们相信，而且他们并不是彻头彻尾的撒谎。
And we’re much more religious than Western Europe.
我们比西欧更加虔诚。
Isn’t some notion of hell necessary?
难道不需要一些地狱的概念吗？
No, and you are more religious.
不，而且你更加虔诚。
What you mean is, many more of you practice going to church.
你的意思是，你们中有更多人练习去教堂。
That’s a different matter.
那是另一回事了。
Well, the thing about hell is, all right, it’s there in the Bible, but it is a profoundly unconvincing doctrine.
好吧，关于地狱的事情是，好吧，它存在于《圣经》中，但它是一个非常不令人信服的教义。
Human beings are very capable of creating hells.
人类非常有能力创造地狱。
There is certainly an aspect of human existence which is deeply, deeply inflected with evil.
人类存在的某个方面肯定是深深地受到邪恶的影响。
Christianity is a fight against evil, but that does not imply consignment of people to hell.
基督教是与邪恶作斗争，但这并不意味着将人们送入地狱。
It is true that when you stop trying to persuade people of the real existence of hell, very many of them will stop going to church, for instance, as they have in Scotland, where the Church of Scotland’s church attendance has plummeted over the last 50 years because Calvinism without the belief in hell doesn’t amount to all that much.
确实，当你停止试图说服人们地狱的真实存在时，他们中的很多人就会停止去教堂，例如，就像在苏格兰一样，苏格兰教会的教堂出席率在过去 50 年里急剧下降，因为不相信地狱的加尔文主义意义不大。
That’s why a Eucharistic faith is much more likely to be sustainable, and a religion of sacred place is more likely to be sustainable than the religion of reformed Protestantism evolved in the 16th century.
这就是为什么圣体信仰更有可能可持续，而圣地宗教比 16 世纪发展起来的改革宗新教更有可能可持续。
So yes, once you remove the stick from religion, and maybe the carrot doesn’t look so interesting, fewer people are going to be involved in it.
所以，是的，一旦你把大棒从宗教中拿开，也许胡萝卜看起来就不那么有趣了，参与其中的人就会减少。
That is inevitable.
这是不可避免的。
We in England used to have churchgoing as a form of social contract.
我们英国人曾经把去教堂作为一种社会契约形式。
You went to the Church of England, particularly if you’re respectable.
你去了英国国教，特别是如果你是受人尊敬的话。
Or if you wanted to make a statement, you went to non-conformist Protestant churches.
或者，如果你想发表声明，你就去不墨守成规的新教教堂。
Or if you wanted to make a statement about your culture and maybe ethnic backgrounds, you went to the Roman Catholic Church.
或者，如果您想表达自己的文化和种族背景，那么您可以去罗马天主教堂。
That is no longer the case so intimately.
现在情况已不再那么亲密了。
You also need to look at cases like Scandinavia, where the number of regular churchgoers is very small, but the churches show no sign at all of fading away, and are very high in public esteem.
你还需要看看像斯堪的纳维亚半岛这样的例子，那里经常去教堂的人很少，但教堂丝毫没有消失的迹象，而且公众的尊重度很高。
The extraordinary situation in Denmark, where churchgoing is not very prevalent, I know 10 percent of the population, whatever.
丹麦的情况非同寻常，那里去教堂的现象并不普遍，但无论如何，我认识 10% 的人口。
But 80 percent of the population have been baptized and are taking their children to be baptized.
但80%的人口已经受洗并且正在带着他们的孩子去受洗。
It is part of a way of being Danish.
这是丹麦人生活方式的一部分。
That, maybe, you might call folk culture, but it is a form of Christianity which may have equal validity.
也许，你可以称之为民间文化，但它是基督教的一种形式，可能具有同等的有效性。
It has been called “belonging without believing.” That may be a form of Christianity which does not depend on orthodoxy, but like so much Judaism, depends on orthopraxy, things you do in religion form your religion.
它被称为“无需相信的归属”。这可能是基督教的一种形式，它不依赖于正统信仰，但像犹太教一样，依赖于正统信仰，你在宗教中所做的事情就形成了你的宗教。
On the historian’s mission to unsettle settled facts
论历史学家颠覆既定事实的使命
Last set of questions.
最后一组问题。
Are there common barriers or issues that prevent today’s young historians from becoming great older historians?
是否存在一些共同的障碍或问题阻止当今的年轻历史学家成为伟大的年长历史学家？
Or another way to put it, can there be a younger version who will become a you?
或者换句话说，有没有一个年轻的版本会成为你呢？
Oh, well, I wouldn’t wish to flatter myself by hoping that that would be the case.
哦，好吧，我不想因为希望情况如此而沾沾自喜。
Think about the number of books you’ve written, the number of topics, how incredibly original and well-researched the Cranmer biography is.
想想你写过的书的数量，主题的数量，克兰麦传记的原创性和研究是多么令人难以置信。
It seems harder to attain that now.
现在似乎更难实现这一点了。
Oh, I don’t think so at all.
哦，我一点也不这么认为。
The whole work of a historian in every generation is to look at what the previous generation say and say, “Well, I don’t think that’s quite right.
每一代历史学家的全部工作就是看看上一代人所说的话，然后说：“嗯，我认为那不太正确。
The emphasis is all right.” Perhaps more importantly, “You have simply not listened to things which I am now going to listen to.”
重点没问题。”也许更重要的是，“你根本没有听过我现在要听的事情。”
I noticed that in my younger colleagues.
我在年轻的同事身上注意到了这一点。
We have an extraordinarily flourishing world of church history in the University of Oxford, with seminars packed out with enthusiastic young historians.
牛津大学的教会历史世界异常繁荣，研讨会上挤满了热情的年轻历史学家。
How we’re going to pay for them in the future is another matter, but there are still extremely able people coming through the system.
未来我们如何支付他们的费用是另一回事，但仍然有非常有能力的人通过这个系统。
That is because of the wonderfully self-renewing nature of the historical profession and its inquiry.
这是因为历史职业及其探究具有奇妙的自我更新性质。
I quote in the book — you may have noticed — the remark of an Indian historian of the 20th century, Sir Jadunath Sarkar, who was vice chancellor of the University of Calcutta in the 1920s.
我在书中引用了“你可能已经注意到”20世纪印度历史学家贾杜纳特·萨卡爵士（Sir Jadunath Sarkar）的言论，他是1920年代加尔各答大学的副校长。
Sir Jadunath, under the British Raj, was also the chairman of the Indian Historical Records Commission for the Indian Empire.
贾杜纳特爵士在英属印度统治下，也是印度帝国印度历史记录委员会的主席。
They met one day in 1937, a committee meeting of the commission.
1937 年的一天，他们在委员会的一次委员会会议上见面。
He dryly observed that civil servants within the Imperial Records Department in New Delhi were worried that giving access to the general public to all their archives would unsettle many settled facts.
他冷冷地观察到，新德里帝国档案部的公务员担心向公众开放他们的所有档案会动摇许多既定的事实。
Beautiful piece of irony.
美丽的讽刺。
That is what historians do.
这就是历史学家所做的。
We look at settled facts and we unsettle them, and that is good for human sanity.
我们审视既定的事实并扰乱它们，这对人类的理智有好处。
It’s why you do it.
这就是你这样做的原因。
It’s not just my curiosity as a boy in that Suffolk church about it.
这不仅仅是我作为一个萨福克教堂男孩时对此的好奇。
It is to keep the human race sane and to stop it listening to lies by setting down historical method for judging what is true and what is false.
就是通过制定判断真假的历史方法，让人类保持理智，不再听信谎言。
We are the profession; historians are the profession which keeps the human race sane.
我们是专业；历史学家是让人类保持理智的职业。
We don’t give you a cure for cancer.
我们无法治愈癌症。
We don’t give you a rocket to the moon.
我们不会给你一枚登月火箭。
Those things can be done by mad people.
这些事情都是疯子才能做的。
What we do do is show you what are the sane things in society and what can be a sane future.
我们所做的就是向您展示社会上什么是理智的事物以及什么是理智的未来。
Last two questions.
最后两个问题。
First, what will you do next in terms of writing?
首先，你接下来在写作方面打算做什么？
Second, what do you want to learn about next?
第二，接下来你想学什么？
Good questions, both.
两个问题都好。
Well, I am 74, and I think I may be entitled to a rest.
嗯，我已经 74 岁了，我想我可能有权休息一下。
I’ve been writing books for 50 years.
我写书已有 50 年了。
I think this last book on sex and Christianity is the widest topic I’ve covered, and it may be the most important.
我认为这最后一本关于性和基督教的书是我所涵盖的最广泛的主题，而且可能是最重要的。
It is part of my campaign to make the world sane.
这是我让世界变得理智的运动的一部分。
What I’m doing at the moment is talking about it, as I’m talking to you, as I talked in Gloucester Cathedral last night, to very large audiences.
我现在正在做的就是谈论这个问题，就像我昨晚在格洛斯特大教堂对你们讲话一样，对着大批观众。
In St. Paul’s Cathedral in London, when we launched the hardback version of the book, we had an audience of 1,000.
当我们在伦敦圣保罗大教堂推出该书的精装版时，有 1,000 名观众。
When you’re getting that sort of number, you think, “Well, this is an important topic.” I’m not sure there is anything which I can see which I can do which is as important.
当你得到这样的数字时，你会想，“嗯，这是一个重要的话题。”我不确定有什么我能看到和我能做的事情同样重要。
Inquiry, you ask me.
询问，你问我。
Well, one thing I’d love to go on doing is simply traveling around to English parish churches looking at them.
嗯，我想做的一件事就是去英国教区教堂看看它们。
I may have seen — I don’t know — 6,000.
我可能见过 —— 我不知道 —— 6,000。
Well, that means there are 8,000 to go, and each of them is like meeting a new person and teasing out a new story.
嗯，这意味着还有 8,000 场比赛，每场比赛都像是结识一个新人并梳理一个新故事。
So, it may be that that’s the way that my final years go.
所以，我的最后几年可能就是这样度过的。
Again, the title of your book is Lower Than the Angels: A History of Sex and Christianity, but I’m happy to recommend all your books.
再说一次，你的书的标题是《低于天使：性与基督教的历史》，但我很高兴推荐你所有的书。
Diarmaid MacCulloch, thank you very much.
迪阿梅德·麦克卡洛克，非常感谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢。
It’s been a pleasure.
这是一种乐趣。
Image Credit: Barry Jones
图片来源：巴里·琼斯
This episode was made possible through the support of the John Templeton Foundation.
这一集是在约翰·邓普顿基金会的支持下得以实现的。