David Salle on the Experience of Art (Ep. 135)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today, I’m honored to be sitting here with David Salle in David’s studio out on Long Island.
今天，我很荣幸能和大卫·萨尔一起坐在大卫位于长岛的工作室里。
David, I would describe, really, as a force of nature.
大卫，我真的会把它描述为一种自然的力量。
He has spent most of his life creating art, often as a painter, but not only — also sculpture and film.
他一生大部分时间都在创作艺术，通常是作为一名画家，但不仅是雕塑和电影。
He directed a movie produced by Martin Scorsese.
他执导了马丁·斯科塞斯制作的电影。
David is perhaps best known for his rise to fame in the 1980s, where he heralded the revival of a certain style of figurative painting.
大卫最出名的或许是他在 20 世纪 80 年代的成名，当时他预示了某种具象绘画风格的复兴。
David is someone who is thought of as being able to work in ballet and theater, in virtually every genre, and being able to integrate disparate elements of the artistic craft, figure out how they work.
大卫被认为能够从事芭蕾舞和戏剧几乎所有流派的工作，并且能够整合艺术工艺的不同元素，弄清楚它们是如何运作的。
He has also written a highly regarded book of artistic criticism called How to See.
他还写了一本备受推崇的艺术批评书《如何观看》。
He’s working on a memoir and has three shows coming up this fall.
他正在写一本回忆录，今年秋天将举办三场演出。
You can think of David as someone who has done virtually everything.
你可以认为大卫是一个几乎做过所有事情的人。
He has, in fact, also interviewed Scarlett Johansson.
事实上，他还采访过斯嘉丽·约翰逊。
David, welcome.
大卫，欢迎。
Thank you very much, Tyler.
非常感谢你，泰勒。
I’m very happy to be here.
我很高兴来到这里。
Let me start with a few quotations from you.
让我先引用您的几句话。
I’ll read them off, and you tell me what you meant.
我把它们读出来，你告诉我你的意思。
Here’s the first one.
这是第一个。
“It sounds strident, but I feel my whole career represents my stand against — or an alternative to — literal-mindedness.”
“这听起来很刺耳，但我觉得我的整个职业生涯代表了我反对——或者替代——字面意义的立场。”
I think it’s true.
我认为这是真的。
What does it mean?
这是什么意思？
It’s certainly nothing particular to me, or rather, not only to me.
这对我来说当然没有什么特别的，或者更确切地说，不仅仅是对我来说。
However, I feel that starting from when?
不过，我觉得从什么时候开始呢？
I don’t know, from the ’50s or the ’60s or ’70s — at a certain point, the experience of culture — whether it’s painting or something else — the nature of the experience shifted to something that had more in common with journalism than with what we might call “an aesthetic experience,” that works of art were thought to be about something.
我不知道，从 50 年代、60 年代或 70 年代开始——“在某个时刻，文化体验”——“无论是绘画还是其他东西”——体验的本质转变为与新闻业有更多共同点的东西，而不是我们所谓的“审美体验”，即艺术作品被认为是关于某种东西的。
What that “about” was, or is, is something that could be more or less easily grasped.
这个“关于”过去或现在是什么，是或多或少容易掌握的东西。
It’s the aboutness which, for me, is a short-circuiting of the art experience.
对我来说，这种关于性是艺术体验的短路。
When I say what I’m opposed to — or find myself in opposition to — is literal-mindedness, what I mean is just that.
当我说我反对的——或者我发现自己反对的——是字面意思时，我的意思就是这个。
Let’s not be so literal.
我们不要这么字面意思。
Let’s not take everything so literally.
我们不要从字面上理解一切。
Is there to be no metaphor?
难道就没有比喻吗？
Is there to be no invention?
难道就没有发明吗？
What I meant in that statement—gnomic though it might sound — is essentially, let’s have more fun, and let’s use more imagination.
我在这句话中的意思是——尽管听起来很精辟——本质上是，让我们享受更多乐趣，让我们发挥更多想象力。
Here’s another quotation from you.
这是您的另一段引言。
“Well, a good work of art does about 15 things simultaneously when it hangs on the wall.”
“嗯，一件好的艺术品挂在墙上时可以同时完成大约 15 件事情。”
I think people might underestimate the decorative function of painting.
我想人们可能低估了绘画的装饰功能。
Painting has various functions.
绘画具有多种功能。
A good painting satisfies most of them or all of them, pretty much at a high level.
一幅好画可以满足他们中的大多数人或全部人，而且水平相当高。
One of the functions, historically, is to make the room look better, to make people’s emotional temperature quicken slightly when the painting is in the room as opposed to when it’s not in the room.
从历史上看，其功能之一是让房间看起来更好，当画在房间里时，与不在房间里时相比，使人们的情绪温度稍微加快。
That’s a decorative function.
这是一个装饰功能。
It’s an important one.
这是一个重要的事情。
I remember the first time I met Jasper Johns.
我记得第一次见到贾斯珀·琼斯的情景。
He actually said to a friend of mine, who was standing with us, “The first obligation of a painting is to make the wall look better that it’s hanging on.” It is one of those statements that is so simple-minded it brooks mystification, but it’s just a simple fact.
他实际上对我和我们站在一起的一个朋友说：“一幅画的首要任务是让墙壁看起来比挂在墙上更好。”这是一种头脑简单到令人费解的说法，但这只是一个简单的事实。
What else does painting do?
绘画还有什么作用？
Obviously, we want it to do more than just be decorative.
显然，我们希望它不仅仅是装饰性的。
I think any good painting — really good painting — expresses something true about the time in which it was made and about the maker.
我认为任何好画——“真正的好画”——都表达了关于它的创作时间和创作者的真实信息。
But that’s another level and doesn’t have to be apparent in the same way that its decorative value is apparent.
但这是另一个层面，并不一定像其装饰价值那样明显。
What else does it do?
它还有什么作用？
It locates the maker in a certain history, a certain dialogue, a certain discourse.
它将创造者置于特定的历史、特定的对话、特定的话语中。
It sometimes takes sides.
有时它会偏袒一方。
It sometimes provokes arguments.
有时它会引起争论。
These are other things that paintings can do.
这些都是绘画可以做的其他事情。
Maybe 15 is a slight exaggeration.
也许15有点夸张。
Here’s another.
这是另一个。
“It’s easier to write about money than to write about art.” And I write about money.
“写金钱比写艺术更容易。”我写的是金钱。
I don’t mean to imply totally that writing about money is simple —
我并不是想完全暗示写钱很简单 ——
It’s easier than your job, is it not?
这比你的工作容易，不是吗？
— I’m sure it’s quite difficult.
—— 我确信这相当困难。
To do it well, it’s difficult.
想要做好，很难。
There’s the obvious problem in writing about art.
撰写有关艺术的文章存在明显的问题。
Art is visual; language is language.
艺术是视觉的；语言就是语言。
When we write about literature or sociology or something other than music, the medium with which we use to describe it is somehow aligned with the experience of it in the first place.
当我们写文学、社会学或音乐以外的东西时，我们用来描述它的媒介首先在某种程度上与它的体验是一致的。
With painting or sculpture — when I say painting, I mean visual arts generally — there is always an approximation or translation that is challenging.
对于绘画或雕塑来说——当我说绘画时，我一般指的是视觉艺术——总是存在一种具有挑战性的近似或翻译。
To do it well is challenging.
要把它做好是有挑战性的。
What has gone wrong with art criticism today?
今天的艺术批评出了什么问题？
What is your structural model for how and why that happened?
对于如何以及为何发生这种情况，您的结构模型是什么？
There are so many parts of the answer, I’m not sure where to begin.
答案有很多部分，我不知道从哪里开始。
Part of what happened in art writing and part of what happened in the visual arts — in America anyway but also, I think, probably all over the West, and maybe even all over the world — is the expansion of the audience.
艺术写作中发生的事情和视觉艺术中发生的事情的一部分——无论如何在美国，但我认为也可能在整个西方，甚至可能在全世界——都是受众的扩大。
At a certain point, artists decided — not that anyone got together and voted, but collectively — as a result of living through a certain time, artists thought, “Wouldn’t it be nice not to be put in the art ghetto any longer, be kept in the art ghetto any longer, but to enter into the broader culture, have more of a dialogue with the other arts or the more popular arts or even entertainment.
在某个时刻，艺术家们决定——“不是任何人聚集在一起投票，而是集体”——因为经历了某个时期，艺术家们想，“不再被放入艺术贫民窟，不再留在艺术贫民窟，而是进入更广阔的文化，与其他艺术或更流行的艺术甚至娱乐进行更多的对话，这不是很好吗？”
We don’t want to be kept below 10th Street anymore.” And they got their wish.
我们不想再被限制在第十街以下了。”他们如愿以偿。
I don’t think anyone quite realized that achieving that was going to come at a cost, and the cost was a dumbing down and simplification — whether it’s over or not, I don’t know — it’s a matter of debate.
我认为没有人完全意识到实现这一目标是要付出代价的，而代价就是简化和简化——“无论它是否结束，我不知道——”这是一个有争议的问题。
The audience greatly expanded.
受众范围大大扩大。
The awareness of the visual arts in the general public expanded enormously.
公众对视觉艺术的认识大大增强。
With that, there was also a need for interlocutors and interpreters, people who could explain the art to the audience.
因此，还需要对话者和口译员，即能够向观众解释艺术的人。
It was a growth industry for a while, not so much anymore.
有一段时间，它是一个增长的行业，但现在不再那么增长了。
A lot of people tried their hand at what, in the past, might have been a very, very select group of people who had some intimate connection with the people they were writing about.
很多人都尝试过接触那些在过去可能是非常非常精选的人群，他们与他们所写的人物有一些密切的联系。
Increasingly, art writing just resembled journalism; that is to say, it’s reporting on this person having a show here, and this person’s themes are X, and this person comes from this culture — just a catalog of either identity markers or subject-matter markers.
艺术写作越来越像新闻报道。也就是说，它正在报道这个人在这里举办演出，这个人的主题是X，这个人来自这个文化 ——只是一个身份标记或主题标记的目录。
In other words, which clubs that artist belongs to.
换句话说，该艺术家属于哪个俱乐部。
It’s all fine, good, and probably necessary, but it’s not criticism, and it’s not thoughtful.
这一切都很好，很好，而且可能是必要的，但这不是批评，也不是深思熟虑。
Maybe it has a deleterious effect on the art experience itself, if we can use that term — sounds grandiose, to say it like that.
也许它会对艺术体验本身产生有害影响，如果我们可以使用这个词——听起来很宏大，这样说。
If I want to learn how to read better, to learn about art and read about art, and if there’s something wrong with art criticism today, what is it that I best should do?
如果我想学习如何更好地阅读，学习艺术并阅读艺术，如果今天的艺术批评有问题，我最好应该做什么？
Your own book aside, of course.
当然，除了你自己的书。
When I wrote my book, I took a page from another artist-critic by the name of Fairfield Porter.
当我写书时，我借鉴了另一位名叫费尔菲尔德·波特（Fairfield Porter）的艺术评论家的经验。
Fairfield Porter was a painter who lived in Southampton who made very high-level paintings in a French realist tradition — landscapes, still life, whatnot.
费尔菲尔德·波特是一位住在南安普敦的画家，他以法国现实主义传统创作了非常高水平的绘画——风景、静物等等。
He was also a very serious reviewer and critic.
他也是一位非常严肃的评论家和批评家。
Fairfield wrote in one of his essays — and I’m paraphrasing — that one’s immediate reaction to a work of art is not dissimilar to the way one reacts to meeting a new person.
费尔菲尔德在他的一篇文章中写道——“我是这样解释的”——一个人对一件艺术品的立即反应与一个人对结识新朋友的反应没有什么不同。
That is to say, when you meet somebody, you know within a millisecond whether that person is likely for you or not.
也就是说，当你遇到某人时，你会在一毫秒之内知道那个人是否适合你。
You, of course, can be wrong, and you can change your opinion.
当然，你可能是错的，并且你可以改变你的观点。
But we form first opinions, first impressions when we meet people, and that’s part of life, part of the discourse of life.
但当我们遇到人时，我们会形成第一意见、第一印象，这是生活的一部分，生活话语的一部分。
What Fairfield was making was an analogy between that experience which we all have every day — or most days — and the visual art experience, where we know what we feel about something usually, but unlike meeting people, when we meet art, we don’t trust that feeling.
费尔菲尔德所做的是将我们每天（或大多数时候）所经历的体验与视觉艺术体验进行类比，在视觉艺术体验中，我们通常知道我们对某件事的感受，但与与人见面不同，当我们遇到艺术时，我们不相信这种感觉。
We have to then go to the wall label, and the wall label tells us X, and then we get confused because the wall label doesn’t really describe what we think or feel about it.
然后我们必须去看墙上的标签，墙上的标签告诉我们X，然后我们会感到困惑，因为墙上的标签并没有真正描述我们的想法或感受。
Maybe we think or feel nothing in particular.
也许我们没有什么特别的想法或感觉。
Maybe we think or feel boredom, but we’re told the work of art is about X.
也许我们认为或感到无聊，但我们被告知艺术作品是关于 X 的。
If we’re good students, we commit that to memory and repeat that.
如果我们是好学生，我们就会记住并重复这一点。
Pretty soon, it becomes the thing that everybody says about that painting.
很快，它就成为每个人对那幅画的议论。
It just simply may not align with anyone’s actual experience.
它可能根本不符合任何人的实际经验。
The very simple piece of advice — if that’s even the right word —the simple procedure is for people to simply ask themselves, “What is it that you really find yourself thinking about when you’re looking at something?” The answer to that might, in fact, be boredom or nothing or something unpleasant.
一个非常简单的建议 ——如果这个词是正确的话——简单的程序就是让人们简单地问自己：“当你看某样东西时，你真正发现自己在想什么？”事实上，答案可能是无聊，或者什么都没有，或者是一些不愉快的事情。
And that’s fine.
那很好。
There are plenty of other things to look at.
还有很多其他事情值得关注。
Just move on.
继续前进吧。
The very simple piece of advice — if that’s even the right word — simple procedure is for people to simply ask themselves, “What is it that you really find yourself thinking about when you’re looking at something?” The answer to that might, in fact, be boredom or nothing or something unpleasant.
一个非常简单的建议 —— 如果这个词是正确的的话 —— 简单的程序就是让人们简单地问自己：“当你看到某样东西时，你发现自己真正在想什么？”事实上，答案可能是无聊，或者什么都没有，或者是一些不愉快的事情。
And that’s fine.
那很好。
There are plenty of other things to look at.
还有很多其他事情值得关注。
Just move on.
继续前进吧。
I think without the ability to tell the truth about it — what the experience feels like — then we’re stuck.
我认为，如果没有能力说出真相 ——“体验的感觉如何”——那么我们就会陷入困境。
Then we have to manufacture all of these other criteria, which may or may not be true.
然后我们必须制定所有这些其他标准，这些标准可能是真的，也可能不是。
They might be true.
他们可能是真的。
They might, in fact, impact things in a meaningful way.
事实上，它们可能会以有意义的方式影响事物。
But there’s always the danger that those criteria take on a life of their own and that they become a substitute for the experience, rather than the actual experience.
但始终存在这样的危险：这些标准具有自己的生命力，并且它们成为经验的替代品，而不是实际的经验。
Now, that being said, the experience can and probably will change.
话虽这么说，但体验可以而且可能会改变。
But as long as one is alert to what that change is, that, to me, seems healthy and part of the process.
但只要人们对这种变化保持警惕，对我来说，这似乎是健康的，也是这个过程的一部分。
I don’t know, does that make any sense?
我不知道，这有什么意义吗？
Yes, but just to be very concrete, let’s say someone asks you, “I want to take one actionable step tomorrow to learn more about art.” And they are a smart, highly educated person, but have not spent much time in the art world.
是的，但具体来说，假设有人问你：“我想明天采取一个可行的步骤来了解更多关于艺术的知识。”而且他们都是聪明、受过高等教育的人，但并没有在艺术界花太多时间。
What should they actually do other than look at art, on the reading level?
在阅读层面上，除了看艺术之外，他们实际上应该做什么？
On the reading level?
阅读水平？
Oh God, Tyler, that’s hard.
天啊，泰勒，这太难了。
I’ll have to think about it.
我得考虑一下。
I’ll have to come back with an answer in a few minutes.
我必须在几分钟内回复。
I’m not sure there’s anything concretely to do on the reading level.
我不确定在阅读层面上有什么具体要做的事情。
There probably is — just not coming to mind.
可能有——只是没有想到。
There’s Henry Geldzahler, who wrote a book very late in his life, at the end of his life.
亨利·盖尔扎勒 (Henry Geldzahler) 在他生命的最后阶段写了一本书。
I can’t remember the title, but he addresses the problem of something which is almost a taboo — how do you acquire taste?
我不记得标题了，但他解决了一个几乎是禁忌的问题——“你如何获得品味？”
— which is, in a sense, what we’re talking about.
——从某种意义上说，这就是我们正在谈论的。
It’s something one can’t even speak about in polite society among art historians or art critics.
这是一件在上流社会的艺术史学家或艺术评论家中甚至不能谈论的事情。
Taste is considered to be something not worth discussing.
味道被认为是不值得讨论的事情。
It’s simply, we’re all above that.
很简单，我们都超越了这一点。
Taste is, in a sense, something that has to do with Hallmark greeting cards — but it’s not true.
从某种意义上说，品味与霍尔马克贺卡有关 ——但事实并非如此。
Taste is what we have to work with.
品味是我们必须处理的事情。
It’s a way of describing human experience.
这是描述人类经验的一种方式。
Henry, who was the first curator of modern and contemporary art at the Metropolitan Museum in New York, was a wonderful guy and a wonderful raconteur.
亨利是纽约大都会博物馆第一位现代和当代艺术策展人，他是一位出色的人，也是一位出色的健谈者。
Henry basically answers your question: find ways, start collecting.
亨利基本上回答了你的问题：找到方法，开始收集。
“Okay, but I don’t have any money.
“好吧，不过我没有钱。
How can I collect art?” You don’t have to collect great paintings.
我怎样才能收藏艺术品？”你不必收集伟大的画作。
Just go to the flea market and buy a vase for 5 bucks.
去跳蚤市场花5块钱买一个花瓶。
Bring it back to your room, live with it, and look at it.
把它带回你的房间，和它一起生活并观察它。
Pretty soon, you’ll start to make distinctions about it.
很快，你就会开始对此做出区分。
Eventually, if you’re really paying attention to your own reactions, you’ll use it up.
最终，如果你真的关注自己的反应，你就会用尽它。
You’ll give that to somebody else, and you’ll go back to the flea market, and you buy another, slightly better vase, and you bring that home and live with that.
你会把它给别人，然后你会回到跳蚤市场，买另一个稍微好一点的花瓶，然后把它带回家并与之一起生活。
And so the process goes.
整个过程就这样进行。
That’s very real.
这是非常真实的。
It’s very concrete.
这是非常具体的。
What is wrong with the incentives of museum curators?
博物馆馆长的激励机制出了什么问题？
The incentives?
激励措施？
The incentives.
激励措施。
There’s a structural problem there, which you can identify for us as you see fit, and where does that problem come from?
那里存在一个结构性问题，您可以根据您的需要为我们确定该问题，这个问题来自哪里？
It’s really interesting to even think about curators’ work as being incentivized in the first place.
考虑到策展人的工作首先是受到激励的，这真的很有趣。
I think that’s a brilliant formulation.
我认为这是一个绝妙的表述。
They might be too risk-averse, too conformist.
他们可能过于规避风险、过于墨守成规。
There are a lot of stories you can tell.
有很多故事可以讲。
Sure.
当然。
In this country, the curators answer to the director, and the director answers to the board of directors.
在这个国家，策展人对导演负责，导演对董事会负责。
There’s a lot of oversight and a lot of people who have to be — not pleased or mollified; it’s not so controlling.
有很多监督，很多人必须“不高兴”或“安抚”；它不那么控制。
However, nobody wants to make an unpopular show or make a show which is controversial in the wrong way.
然而，没有人愿意制作一个不受欢迎的节目或以错误的方式制作一个有争议的节目。
Controversial in the right way might have been good a while ago, but now any controversy so quickly shifts over into being the unwelcome kind that it definitely has made it more risk-averse.
不久前，以正确的方式进行争议可能是件好事，但现在任何争议都会很快转变为不受欢迎的类型，这肯定会让人们更加厌恶风险。
Beyond the obvious aversion to that kind of risk, there are as many different kinds of curators as there are different kinds of artists, obviously, and they have different intentions, different sensibilities.
除了对这种风险的明显厌恶之外，显然，策展人的种类与艺术家的种类一样多，而且他们有不同的意图、不同的情感。
But there is this problem which we first started talking about in terms of how criticism has changed.
但我们首先从批评如何变化的角度开始讨论这个问题。
It all stems from trying to redefine the nature of the public art experience.
这一切都源于试图重新定义公共艺术体验的本质。
What is the experience the public is meant to have with art?
公众对艺术应该有什么样的体验？
And what is it that we’re trying to encourage them to have?
我们试图鼓励他们拥有什么？
The curator’s, in a way, caught in the middle of this dilemma that they’re hired because they’re experts in something.
在某种程度上，策展人陷入了这样的困境：他们被聘用是因为他们是某方面的专家。
They all have done very diligent research and work in publishing in various areas in which they’re expert.
他们都在各自擅长的各个领域进行了非常勤奋的研究和出版工作。
They want to share their expertise with the art-viewing public.
他们希望与艺术观赏公众分享他们的专业知识。
That expertise may not be in a particularly popular area, so what are they meant to do?
这些专业知识可能不是特别受欢迎的领域，那么他们的目的是什么？
The shows in big museums like the Museum of Modern Art, for example, are usually planned five years ahead at least, if not longer.
例如，现代艺术博物馆等大型博物馆的展览通常至少提前五年计划，甚至更长时间。
The amount of logistical effort and the amount of money required to produce a major show in a major museum is daunting.
在大型博物馆举办大型展览所需的后勤工作和资金数额令人望而生畏。
No one wants to make a mistake.
没有人愿意犯错误。
That’s not always a healthy situation to be in.
这并不总是一个健康的情况。
It is a profession — and again, I’m not in it, so I’m talking about it, looking at it from the outside; I could be wrong — it’s not a profession that has encouraged or rewarded mavericks very much.
这是一个职业 ——再说一遍，我并不从事其中，所以我是从外部角度来谈论它；我可能是错的——这不是一个非常鼓励或奖励特立独行者的职业。
There have been some.
有一些。
Walter Hobbs was one example.
沃尔特·霍布斯就是一个例子。
I was fortunate enough to have been friends with him and worked with him a number of times.
我很幸运能和他成为朋友并与他合作过很多次。
Walter has a fearless view of what constituted 20th-century art, and he was very comfortable communicating to people.
沃尔特对 20 世纪艺术的构成有着无所畏惧的看法，而且他非常轻松地与人交流。
But there have been few.
但这样的情况已经很少了。
And the way that curators are educated in the graduate schools and the way they’re promoted in the museums doesn’t exactly encourage that kind of risk-taking, and I’m not sure it would be rewarded in the art press if they did.
策展人在研究生院接受的教育方式以及他们在博物馆的晋升方式并不完全鼓励这种冒险，而且我不确定如果他们这样做的话，是否会在艺术媒体中得到回报。
But again, it’s hypothetical.
但话又说回来，这只是假设。
I feel like I’m getting away from the question.
我觉得我正在回避这个问题。
No, that’s a good answer.
不，这是一个很好的答案。
Philosopher David Hume had suggested that the closest we could come to a final standard of aesthetic quality was some notion of the test of time — what survives and is appreciated by future generations.
哲学家大卫·休谟（David Hume）曾提出，我们能够达到的审美质量的最终标准最接近的是一些经过时间考验的概念——“什么能够幸存下来并被后代所欣赏。”
Do you agree?
你同意？
And if not, why not?
如果没有，为什么不呢？
It reminds me of the Wittgenstein dictum — not that we’re playing competing philosophers here —
这让我想起了维特根斯坦的格言 ——“并不是我们在这里扮演竞争的哲学家”——
We can, yeah.
我们可以，是的。
— the Wittgenstein dictum that for the meaning of something, consider its use.
——维特根斯坦格言，要了解某物的意义，就要考虑它的用途。
I think things can have — things, meaning art objects, art things — can have short-term use.
我认为东西可以有 — 东西，意思是艺术品，艺术品 — 可以有短期的使用。
They can have long-term use.
它们可以长期使用。
They can have use that comes and goes, comes in and out of focus.
他们可以使用来来去去、进入焦点和离开焦点的用途。
They can be put to different uses in different times.
它们可以在不同的时期发挥不同的用途。
All of that seems natural and fine to me, and I’m not sure that there’s one long-term test which all great works of art would pass, or that something is so durable that it doesn’t change.
所有这些对我来说似乎都是自然而美好的，我不确定是否有一项所有伟大的艺术作品都会通过的长期测试，或者某些东西是如此持久而不会改变。
And again, test of time according to whom?
再说一次，时间的考验由谁来决定？
Who’s judging?
谁来评判？
Who’s the judge?
法官是谁？
But say, Angelica Kauffman, who was much heralded in her lifetime in the 18th century, is now considered a good painter but somewhat of a curiosity — important for her role in getting women into the arts, but not a great painter anymore.
但是，安吉丽卡·考夫曼 (Angelica Kauffman) 在 18 世纪的一生中备受赞誉，现在被认为是一位优秀的画家，但有些好奇——这对她在让女性进入艺术领域的作用很重要，但她不再是一位伟大的画家了。
That would be one example.
这就是一个例子。
Should our default assumption be to trust these judgments of history?
我们的默认假设应该是相信这些历史判断吗？
No, I don’t think so.
不，我不这么认为。
I think one should make one’s own judgment, and it might differ greatly from accepted opinion.
我认为每个人都应该做出自己的判断，它可能与公认的观点有很大不同。
If you look, say, at the abstract expressionists and their reputations and what they did, what would be an example where you think the test of time is wrong?
比如说，如果你看看抽象表现主义者、他们的声誉以及他们的所作所为，你认为时间的检验是错误的例子是什么？
You have Pollock, you have Kline, you have Motherwell.
你有波洛克，你有克莱恩，你有马瑟韦尔。
They all have their reputations.
他们都有自己的声誉。
Where has the test of time messed up there?
时间检验哪里出了问题？
You mean which one’s overrated and which one’s underrated?
你的意思是哪个被高估了，哪个被低估了？
In your view, yes.
在你看来，是的。
I’m one of those people who has so deeply bought into the whole mythology of the abstract expressionist generation that I don’t find them overrated.
我是那些深深相信抽象表现主义一代的整个神话的人之一，我不认为他们被高估了。
I find them fundamental and central.
我发现它们是基础和核心。
I find them foundational in 20th- and 21st-century painting.
我发现它们是 20 世纪和 21 世纪绘画的基础。
They’re irreplaceable, and they are so for very specific reasons having to do with an unrepeatable historical set of events that produced in these particular people some response that was unprecedented and long-lasting and, for me, still reverberating — probably not so for other people, younger people, although who knows?
它们是不可替代的，而且它们之所以如此，是出于非常具体的原因，与一系列不可重复的历史事件有关，这些事件在这些特定的人身上产生了一些前所未有的、持久的反应，对我来说，仍然产生回响——“可能对其他人、年轻人来说不是这样，尽管谁知道呢？
There are times when artists collectively move the needle forward in a way where it stays moved.
有时，艺术家们会以一种保持前进的方式集体推动前进。
There are people who came right after that particular group — what’s called the second-generation abstract expressionists — perhaps they didn’t move the needle any further.
有些人紧接着那个特定群体——“所谓的第二代抽象表现主义者”——或许他们并没有取得进一步的进展。
Maybe the needle couldn’t go any further in that particular direction.
也许针无法朝那个特定方向走得更远。
Those people — we now feel many of them were overrated in their time or have simply faded into another kind of level.
那些人——我们现在觉得他们中的许多人在他们的时代被高估了，或者只是退化到了另一种水平。
But the people who really fuse baseline materials and make out of that fusion something which is both unique to that person and also addresses the broader aesthetic situation — and also, one step further, opens the door for other people — those people are rare.
但是，那些真正融合了基础材料并从这种融合中创造出既是该人独有的东西，又解决了更广泛的审美情境的人——而且，更进一步，为其他人打开了大门——这样的人是罕见的。
When it happens, I don’t think it’s an accident that they rise, and I don’t think it’s something which goes away.
当这种情况发生时，我不认为它们的崛起是偶然的，也不认为它们会消失。
Now, as I said earlier, it might simply be of less use to this generation than to that generation, but if you bother to look at what it actually is or how it was constituted, I think it can come to life again.
现在，正如我之前所说，它对这一代人的用处可能不如对那一代人，但如果你费心看看它到底是什么或它是如何构成的，我认为它可以再次复活。
As you know, the 17th century in European painting is a quite special time.
如您所知，17世纪对于欧洲绘画来说是一个相当特殊的时期。
You have Velásquez, you have Rubens, you have Bruegel, much, much more.
你有委拉斯开兹，你有鲁本斯，你有勃鲁盖尔，还有很多很多。
And there are so many talented painters today.
如今有很多才华横溢的画家。
Why can they not paint in that style anymore?
为什么他们不能再画那样的风格了？
Or can they?
或者他们可以吗？
What stops them?
是什么阻止了他们？
Artists are trained in such a vastly different way than in the 17th, 18th, or even the 19th century.
艺术家接受的训练方式与 17、18 甚至 19 世纪截然不同。
We didn’t have the training.
我们没有接受过培训。
We’re not trained in an apprentice guild situation where the apprenticeship starts very early in life, and people who exhibit talent in drawing or painting are moved on to the next level.
我们没有在学徒行会的环境中接受培训，学徒期很早就开始了，表现出绘画天赋的人会被提升到一个新的水平。
Today painters are trained in professional art schools.
今天，画家在专业艺术学校接受培训。
People reach school at the normal age — 18, 20, 22, something in grad school, and then they’re in a big hurry.
人们在正常年龄——18岁、20岁、22岁，读研究生的时候上学，然后他们就变得很匆忙。
If it’s something you can’t master or show proficiency in quickly, let’s just drop it and move on.
如果你无法快速掌握或熟练掌握某件事，那就放弃它，继续前进吧。
There are other reasons as well, cultural reasons.
还有其他原因，文化原因。
For many years or decades, painting in, let’s say, the style of Velásquez or even the style of Manet — what would have been the reason for it?
多年来或几十年来，比如说，委拉斯开兹的风格，甚至马奈的风格——其原因是什么？
What would have been the motivation for it, even assuming that one could do it?
即使假设有人能做到，这样做的动机是什么？
Modernism, from whenever we date it, from 1900 to 1990, was such a persuasive argument.
现代主义，无论我们从1900年到1990年，无论何时，都是一个很有说服力的论点。
It was such an inclusive and exciting and dynamic argument that what possibly could have been the reason to want to take a step back 200 years in history and paint like an earlier painter?
这是一个如此包容、令人兴奋和充满活力的论点，以至于我们有什么理由想要倒退 200 年前的历史并像早期画家一样绘画呢？
But if you think modernism is now exhausted, which is a plausible view at least, and you need to go somewhere, and you can’t get any more abstract .
但如果你认为现代主义现在已经筋疲力尽，这至少是一个合理的观点，你需要去某个地方，那么你就不能再抽象了。
.
。
.
。
but still people don’t go back pretty much at all.
但人们仍然很少回去。
No, I totally agree with your formulation.
不，我完全同意你的表述。
But people are going back.
但人们正在回去。
It’s just not so easy.
这并不那么容易。
The first time I saw John Currin’s work, for example, there was a show that MoMA did.
例如，我第一次看到 John Currin 的作品是在 MoMA 举办的一场展览中。
I think Laura Hoptman did the show of John and who else?
我认为劳拉·霍普特曼（Laura Hoptman）表演了约翰的节目，还有谁？
Maybe Elizabeth Peyton, maybe even Lisa Yuskavitch.
也许是伊丽莎白·佩顿，甚至也许是丽莎·尤斯卡维奇。
I can’t remember, there might have been three of them, a triple whammy.
我不记得了，可能是三个，三重打击。
First thing I thought when I saw John’s painting is, “Oh, this guy owes nothing to modernism.
当我看到约翰的画时，我首先想到的是，“哦，这家伙与现代主义毫无关系。
He just doesn’t care.”
他只是不在乎。”
It was my first awakening that there is a generation for whom it was really no big deal.
我第一次意识到，对于这一代人来说，这其实没什么大不了的。
John had started out his career making abstract paintings, very credible, very likable abstract paintings, but he clearly realized that he was the tail end of something, not the beginning of something.
约翰的职业生涯是从创作抽象画开始的，非常可信、非常讨人喜欢的抽象画，但他清楚地意识到自己是某件事的尾端，而不是某事的开始。
John’s one of the few artists who had the talent, the skills — took the time to acquire the skills — to paint in a way which would have been out of reach for many other people.
约翰是为数不多的拥有天赋、技能——“花时间获得技能”——以许多其他人无法企及的方式进行绘画的艺术家之一。
We’re just at the beginning of that next phase.
我们正处于下一阶段的开始。
There might be people painting like Velásquez in the next decade.
未来十年可能会有像委拉斯开兹那样的人画画。
It’s unlikely because the truth of it is that there were very few people in 17th century that painted like Velásquez.
这不太可能，因为事实是，17 世纪很少有人能像委拉斯开兹那样画画。
There really is only one Velásquez, there’s really only one Manet, there’s really only one whoever you think is really great.
真的只有一位委拉斯开兹，真的只有一位马奈，真的只有一位你认为真正伟大的人。
There’s really only one Pontormo.
实际上只有一个蓬托尔莫。
It’s not that everybody in the 17th century or the 16th century was painting in a certain way.
并不是 17 世纪或 16 世纪的每个人都以某种方式绘画。
There were always these exemplars, and what allowed them to reach this other height, this other level is very mysterious and probably a whole other conversation.
总是有这些榜样，是什么让他们达到了另一个高度，这个另一个水平是非常神秘的，可能是完全不同的对话。
For want of a better word, the academic style of painting is something which is hard to do alone.
找不到更好的词来形容，学院派画风是很难单独做到的。
It’s part of a whole culture, a whole academy of looking, a whole way of looking and setting up the studio and having a certain kind of assistants, a certain kind of pigments, a certain kind of tests of drawing, and things that contributed to the look and feel of those paintings.
它是整个文化的一部分，整个观看学院，整个观看和设置工作室的方式，以及特定类型的助手、特定类型的颜料、特定类型的绘画测试以及对这些绘画的外观和感觉做出贡献的东西。
One could do it.
一个人可以做到。
It would just take a tremendous effort of will, and then, what exactly would be the point?
只需要付出巨大的意志力，那么，到底有什么意义呢？
I think here’s the point: We think that art is like a menu in a Chinese restaurant for the artist.
我认为重点是：我们认为艺术就像艺术家中餐馆的菜单。
The artist surveys the history of art and says, “I’ll have one of those and one of those and one of those.
这位艺术家回顾了艺术史并说道：“我会拥有其中一件、其中一件、其中一件。
I want to paint like Rembrandt in the morning and like Titian in the afternoon.
我想早上像伦勃朗一样画画，下午像提香一样画画。
Then I want to paint like Georgia O’Keeffe before I go to bed.” That’s not the reality.
然后我想在睡觉前像乔治亚·欧姬芙一样画画。”事实并非如此。
The reality is you’re stuck with what your own body can do, your own aptitude, your own level of coordination and control.
现实是，你被自己的身体能力、能力、协调和控制水平所束缚。
It’s more like athletics, more like you can’t —
这更像是田径运动，更像是你不能 ——
But athletes just seem to get better with time.
但随着时间的推移，运动员似乎会变得越来越好。
I tend to think there’s something about urgency.
我倾向于认为有一些紧迫性。
To be Cézanne or Velásquez, there was something you had to feel was extremely urgent.
要成为塞尚或委拉斯开兹，你必须感到某种事情是极其紧迫的。
And it’s simply impossible, today, to feel those same things as being urgent because they’re either taken care of or they’re irrelevant or they’re not part of your society or politics, and other things feel urgent.
今天，根本不可能感觉到同样的事情是紧急的，因为它们要么被照顾，要么无关紧要，要么它们不是你的社会或政治的一部分，而其他事情则感觉紧急。
Yes, and I think that’s true.
是的，我认为这是真的。
It is a matter of urgency.
这是一个紧迫的问题。
It’s also a matter of what .
这也是一个什么的问题。
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。
If you try to imagine being Cézanne, what was painting like immediately preceding Cézanne?
如果你尝试想象自己是塞尚，那么塞尚之前的绘画是什么样的？
If you look at Cézanne’s early work, which basically answered the question, we don’t know exactly what allowed Cézanne to break out of the dark, dour, brown, heavily outlined, agitated, congested paintings of his youth into the Cézanne that we all know.
如果你看一下塞尚的早期作品，它基本上回答了这个问题，我们不知道究竟是什么让塞尚摆脱了他年轻时黑暗、阴沉、棕色、重轮廓、激动、拥挤的画作，成为我们所熟知的塞尚。
But it didn’t happen overnight.
但这并不是一朝一夕发生的。
It was a long, slow, and probably torturous process, and something for which he was not immediately rewarded.
这是一个漫长、缓慢、可能还很痛苦的过程，而且他并没有立即得到回报。
It is always the individual plus the cultural and the technological, you could say.
你可以说，它始终是个人加上文化和技术。
The technology of painting in his lifetime was X, and he added Y to the X.
他一生的绘画技术是X，他在X的基础上加上了Y。
Part of that is unknowable because the secret resides with him.
其中一部分是不可知的，因为秘密就在他身上。
It’s interesting to think about.
想想很有趣。
What is it about the culture today that’s producing the art today?
今天的文化是怎样产生今天的艺术的？
I think that’s the question.
我想这就是问题所在。
Is that’s what you’re asking?
这就是你要问的吗？
Yes, so the rise of photography would be one of many examples.
是的，摄影的兴起只是众多例子之一。
Right, my answer was going to be, we’re in a documentary mode, and I’m sure the rise of photography — not just the rise — let’s say, the deluge of photography.
是的，我的答案是，我们正处于纪实模式，而且我确信摄影的兴起 ——“不仅仅是崛起”—— 可以说，摄影的洪流。
And the centrality of it.
以及它的中心地位。
The centrality of it has contributed to that, for sure.
毫无疑问，它的中心地位促成了这一点。
This is, in a way, the most obvious thing of all.
在某种程度上，这是最明显的事情。
The artists we mentioned, in the past, were able to do what they did because they didn’t have cameras, so they were required to document things in a way which is no longer required of artists or painters.
我们提到的艺术家，在过去，之所以能够做他们所做的事情，是因为他们没有相机，所以他们被要求以艺术家或画家不再需要的方式记录事物。
But in general, we’re in a mood, a cultural moment that favors the documentary as a meaningful expression of our time.
但总的来说，我们的心情和文化时刻都倾向于将纪录片作为我们这个时代的有意义的表达。
That would certainly not have been the case in 1950 or 1940 or even 1960.
如果是 1950 年、1940 年甚至 1960 年，情况肯定不会如此。
If I think of some painters, when I see their works all together in the form of a major retrospective, I enjoy them more, and they make more sense to me.
如果我想到一些画家，当我以大型回顾展的形式看到他们的作品时，我会更喜欢他们，他们对我来说更有意义。
Roy Lichtenstein or Jasper Johns would be examples.
罗伊·利希滕斯坦或贾斯珀·琼斯就是例子。
There are other great painters.
还有其他伟大的画家。
Cy Twombly — I saw a big retrospective of his work.
赛·托姆布雷 — 我看了他的大型作品回顾展。
I didn’t like it less, but when I walked out of it, I didn’t feel especially enriched.
我并没有少喜欢它，但是当我走出它的时候，我并没有感到特别充实。
You may disagree on who belongs to what category, but what differentiates the artists who do much better when you see a retrospective of all their work together?
您可能不同意谁属于哪个类别，但是当您看到他们所有作品的回顾展时，哪些艺术家做得更好？
What’s the extra thing you’re learning or gaining?
您正在学习或获得的额外东西是什么？
It’s a very good question.
这是一个非常好的问题。
You can almost divide artists into two categories: the ones who constantly evolve, constantly change, take on new challenges, even take on almost new identities versus the ones who don’t.
你几乎可以将艺术家分为两类：不断发展、不断变化、接受新挑战、甚至采取几乎新身份的艺术家与那些不不断发展、不断改变的艺术家。
I don’t think the ones who don’t are lesser necessarily or that they’re less good when they’re good, less profound when they’re profound, less deeply pleasurable when you engage with their work.
我不认为那些不这样做的人就更不那么优秀，或者当他们优秀时他们就不那么优秀，当他们深刻时他们就不那么深刻，当你参与他们的工作时他们就不那么令人愉快。
But they’re definitely less rewarding as retrospective material because the work is more all of a piece.
但作为回顾性材料，它们的回报肯定要低一些，因为这些作品更像是一个整体。
Everyone’s work is all of a piece, but all of a piece just in terms of its surface attributes.
每个人的作品都是一个整体，但只是表面属性上的整体。
Yes, Cy, having found his process, his way of picture-making, varied in that process less, say, than Jasper, certainly less than Roy.
是的，赛伊发现他的过程，他的摄影方式，在这个过程中的变化比贾斯珀要小，当然比罗伊要小。
Even Roy clung to the black outline throughout his entire career and up until the very end.
甚至罗伊在整个职业生涯中都坚持黑色轮廓，直到最后。
If he had lived longer, we would have seen works where the outline itself was jettisoned, but that was the unifying principle of all of his work.
如果他活得更久，我们就会看到轮廓本身被抛弃的作品，但这是他所有作品的统一原则。
Jasper is a really fascinating example, but I think quite rare in that early Jasper is very different from work of the ’70s, which is very different from the work of the ’80s, ’90s, et cetera.
Jasper 是一个非常有趣的例子，但我认为早期的 Jasper 与 70 年代的作品非常不同，与 80 年代、90 年代等的作品非常不同，这是非常罕见的。
Yet it is unmistakable.
但这是毫无疑问的。
When you see a painting by him from whatever date, it’s unmistakably his.
无论何时，当你看到他的一幅画时，它毫无疑问是他的。
But his concerns changed, his technique changed, his scale changed, certainly, his subject matter changed.
但他的关注点发生了变化，他的技术发生了变化，他的规模发生了变化，当然，他的主题也发生了变化。
The very idea of having subject matter changed.
改变主题的想法本身。
There’s just quite a lot of movement, and if it’s coherent and consistent and graspable as the expression of one personality, however diverse within that personality, it’s a very exhilarating experience to have.
有相当多的动作，如果它作为一个个性的表达是连贯、一致和易于理解的，无论该个性内部有多么多样化，这都是一种非常令人兴奋的体验。
It’s also a question of the curator.
这也是策展人的问题。
The curator has to make the road map which one can follow.
策展人必须制定一个可以遵循的路线图。
Now, we’re sitting here in your studio, surrounded by your paintings.
现在，我们坐在您的工作室里，周围都是您的画作。
You’re a relatively prolific painter, always working.
你是一位相对多产的画家，总是在工作。
What are the biggest just purely physical problems you encounter being a painter?
作为一名画家，您遇到的最大的纯粹身体问题是什么？
I like to paint at a certain scale.
我喜欢按一定比例绘画。
These pictures that we’re looking at now — they’re tall.
我们现在看到的这些照片 ——它们很高。
Some of them are 10 feet tall, 10 feet square.
其中一些有10英尺高，10英尺见方。
Making a painting that size just requires a certain physical energy, reach, and stamina.
制作这么大的一幅画只需要一定的体力、伸展力和耐力。
It’s very different from making a 30-inch-high portrait.
这与制作30英寸高的肖像有很大不同。
It becomes natural to me, that physical engagement with the canvas at a certain scale.
对我来说，在一定程度上与画布的身体接触变得很自然。
It’s something that I’ve always done.
这是我一直在做的事情。
I’ve always had that sense of scale in my work.
我在工作中一直有这种规模感。
Other artists might have a completely different sense of scale.
其他艺术家可能有完全不同的规模感。
Regardless, painting is a physical activity, and it requires concentration, obviously mental concentration, but also just physical stamina.
不管怎样，绘画是一项体力活动，需要集中注意力，显然是精神集中，但也只是体力。
I think I’ve said this other places: It is one of the things in life that you can get better at with the age, instead of worse, but you do reach a point where the physical body is a limitation, just how many hours a day you can work, how big you can work.
我想我在其他地方也说过：随着年龄的增长，你可以做得更好，而不是更糟，这是生活中的事情之一，但你确实达到了身体成为限制的程度，每天你可以工作多少小时，你可以工作多大。
When you walk through a museum as an artist, how is it you do that differently?
当你作为一名艺术家走过博物馆时，你的做法有何不同？
You mean differently from someone who’s not an artist?
您的意思与非艺术家不同吗？
Right, but someone who has some background in looking at the visual arts.
是的，但是有一些视觉艺术背景的人。
In my experience, artists are both more patient and more impatient than the nonartist in a museum setting.
根据我的经验，在博物馆环境中，艺术家比非艺术家更有耐心，也更缺乏耐心。
I am so impatient.
我好不耐烦。
I do not want to linger in front of things that don’t interest me.
我不想在自己不感兴趣的事情面前徘徊。
I don’t care who made them.
我不在乎谁制造了它们。
I don’t care what time frame they were made in.
我不在乎它们是在什么时间范围内制作的。
The incredible backstory of how that thing ended up in the museum just couldn’t interest me less.
那东西如何最终进入博物馆的令人难以置信的背景故事让我很感兴趣。
I just want the visual hit of that adrenaline rush of some visual piece of interior feeling, knowledge, insight, and without it, I’m gone.
我只是想要那种内心感觉、知识、洞察力的视觉冲击，让肾上腺素激增，没有它，我就走了。
When I find it, I can stay in front of a painting for hours.
当我找到它时，我可以在一幅画前呆上几个小时。
People of sensibility would long since have moved on.
感性的人早就该继续前进了。
In my experience, artists are both more patient and more impatient than the nonartist in a museum setting.
根据我的经验，在博物馆环境中，艺术家比非艺术家更有耐心，也更缺乏耐心。
I am so impatient.
我好不耐烦。
I do not want to linger in front of things that don’t interest me.
我不想在自己不感兴趣的事情面前徘徊。
I don’t care who made them.
我不在乎谁制造了它们。
I don’t care what time frame they were made in.
我不在乎它们是在什么时间范围内制作的。
The incredible backstory of how that thing ended up in the museum just couldn’t interest me less.
那东西最终进入博物馆的令人难以置信的背景故事让我很感兴趣。
What do you think is the biggest thing wrong with leading American museums today?
您认为当今美国领先博物馆最大的问题是什么？
I remember a conversation with a Whitney trustee a long time ago, maybe 30 years ago.
我记得很久以前，也许是 30 年前，与一位惠特尼受托人的谈话。
I can’t even remember what show we were talking about, talking about the slate that they had scheduled.
我什至不记得我们在谈论什么节目，谈论他们安排的节目。
This guy said, “Oh, no, you have to understand, what we want is bodies through turnstiles.”
这家伙说：“哦，不，你必须明白，我们想要的是尸体通过十字转门。”
Okay, that’s what we want.
好吧，这就是我们想要的。
Museums need a great deal of money to operate.
博物馆需要大量资金来运营。
Where does it come from?
它从哪里来？
It doesn’t come from the government.
它不是来自政府。
It comes from ticket sales and private individuals and corporations.
它来自门票销售以及私人和公司。
It’s neither good nor bad, just a fact of life.
这既不好也不坏，只是生活的一个事实。
How to make it better?
如何让它变得更好？
We were talking last night — there are so many regional museums that serve specific populations and, I’d agree with you, do such a great job of giving access to visual experience of various eras and various types to people.
我们昨晚讨论过——有很多地方博物馆为特定人群服务，而且我同意你的观点，它们在为人们提供不同时代、不同类型的视觉体验方面做得非常出色。
If anyone just wanders in, he’s going to get something out of it.
如果有人闲逛，他就会从中得到一些东西。
I’m a great fan and believer of museum culture, and museums in whatever city I’m in forming the backbone of my travel experience.
我是博物馆文化的忠实粉丝和信仰者，无论我在哪个城市，博物馆都是我旅行体验的支柱。
What was the question?
问题是什么？
What’s wrong with American museums?
美国博物馆出了什么问题？
What’s wrong with them?
他们怎么了？
Looking at them as an economist, I see they put out maybe 5 percent or 10 percent of their collections, or sometimes even less.
从经济学家的角度来看，我发现他们可能会拿出自己收藏的 5% 或 10%，有时甚至更少。
That, at least on the surface, appears inefficient.
至少从表面上看，这似乎效率低下。
I understand why they hoard an endowment.
我理解他们为什么囤积捐赠。
It’s a signal to donors that they’ll be reliable, that they won’t sell the painting to somewhere where it has a lesser value.
这向捐赠者发出了一个信号，表明他们是可靠的，他们不会将这幅画卖到价值较低的地方。
But it still seems to me that’s wrong.
但在我看来，这仍然是错误的。
It has to be wrong to lock up so much wonderful, interesting output more or less forever, right?
将如此多精彩、有趣的产出或多或少地永远锁起来一定是错误的，对吧？
The thing that all museums have gotten caught up in — and European museums as well in the last 50 years — is the building boom.
所有博物馆（以及欧洲博物馆在过去 50 年里）都陷入了建筑热潮。
The architecture bonanza has been great for architects, where a museum has to claim architectural singularity to get press, to get attendance, to get donors.
建筑富矿对于建筑师来说是巨大的，博物馆必须声称建筑的独特性才能吸引媒体、吸引观众、吸引捐助者。
So much of the attention and the money has gone into the making of the buildings, some of them good, some not so good — many of them not so good.
大量的注意力和资金投入到了建筑物的建造上，其中有些很好，有些不太好——很多都不太好。
But many of them, I think, to a fairly surprising degree, are not necessarily hospitable places to look at art.
但我认为，在相当令人惊讶的程度上，其中许多并不一定是观看艺术的好地方。
They might be incredible examples of urban intervention or the building arts, but they’re not necessarily places that are particularly congenial to, certainly, looking at paintings.
它们可能是城市干预或建筑艺术的令人难以置信的例子，但它们不一定是特别适合观看绘画的地方。
Maybe looking at other kinds of art — they’re ones that could well be suited for that.
也许看看其他类型的艺术——它们很可能适合这一点。
I sometimes wish that less attention and less money went into the creation of these vast buildings and more to, as you say, just showing off the collection.
有时我希望更少的注意力和金钱投入到这些巨大建筑的创造中，而更多地，正如你所说，只是炫耀收藏品。
We’ve all been to these great museums in Europe which are, essentially, repurposed industrial buildings with very little in the way of amenities, and these have great stuff you look at.
我们都去过欧洲的这些伟大的博物馆，它们本质上是经过改造的工业建筑，几乎没有什么便利设施，但里面有很棒的东西。
I’d like to see more of that.
我想看到更多这样的事情。
When you make a bad painting, what is your best account of what it is that has gone wrong in you?
当你画出一幅糟糕的画时，你对自己的问题最好的解释是什么？
That’s a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
It’s not like my hand slipped or I fell off the ladder.
这不像我的手滑倒或从梯子上摔下来。
It may happen sometimes, but —
有时可能会发生，但是 ——
Yes, that happens too.
是的，这种情况也会发生。
There are so many ways a painting can fail, most of them disheartening.
一幅画失败的原因有很多种，其中大多数都令人沮丧。
Probably the most disheartening is when the whole pictorial conception was wrong.
也许最令人沮丧的是整个绘画构想都是错误的。
I visualized this thing that was going to be so great, and it’s not that I didn’t execute it properly.
我想象到这件事会非常伟大，但并不是我没有正确执行它。
I executed it properly and looked at it and realized the concept was stupid, or was insincere, or was involved in some way with something which wasn’t true and was a lapse in taste, or was juvenile or something.
我正确地执行了它并查看了它，意识到这个概念是愚蠢的，或者是不真诚的，或者以某种方式涉及到一些不真实的东西，是品味的失误，或者是幼稚的东西。
That’s not fun.
那不好玩。
The other thing that’s not fun, but may be more honorable or less full of self-reproach, at least the way I work — sometimes pictures, to reach a height, depend on a gamble.
另一件事情并不有趣，但可能更光荣或更不那么充满自责，至少在我的工作方式上是这样——有时候，摄影要达到一个高度，就需要赌博。
I’m placing a bet and wager that if I put this thing next to that thing, magic’s going to happen, it’s going to catch fire, and I just know it.
我打赌，如果我把这个东西放在那个东西旁边，魔法就会发生，它就会着火，我就知道这一点。
I just know it, but sometimes it doesn’t work, but at least I tried.
我只是知道，但有时行不通，但至少我尝试过。
I tried something.
我尝试了一些东西。
Okay, it didn’t work, didn’t pay off.
好吧，没成功，没有回报。
Get rid of it.
摆脱它。
Those are two common paths to failure.
这是两种常见的失败途径。
There are other paths to failure which are truly embarrassing, which is, I just wasn’t paying enough attention.
还有其他真正令人尴尬的失败途径，那就是，我只是没有给予足够的重视。
I thought that was the right blue, but it wasn’t the right blue.
我以为那是正确的蓝色，但其实不是正确的蓝色。
Anyone paying attention would have known it wasn’t the right blue.
任何留意的人都会知道这不是正确的蓝色。
That sounds so mundane, but that’s probably more often the case.
这听起来很平常，但情况可能更常见。
If you could, for us, please trace through the history of two of your paintings that could be imaginary, so to speak, ideal types.
如果可以的话，请为我们追溯一下您的两幅画的历史，它们可能是想象的，可以说是理想的类型。
One is a very good painting that did very well and helped your reputation a lot, and the other is a so-so or below-average David Salle painting.
一幅是一幅非常好的画，表现非常好，对你的声誉有很大帮助，另一幅是马马虎虎或低于平均水平的大卫·萨尔的画。
Just trace, like, who buys them or where they end up.
只需追踪谁购买了它们或者它们最终去了哪里。
Give us the two hypothetical paths on how they differ.
给我们两个假设的路径，看看它们有何不同。
A really good painting — how does that go well for you?
一幅非常好的画作——你觉得怎么样？
You mean how they differ in terms of their journey and growth?
你的意思是他们的旅程和成长有何不同？
Their history, like who buys it?
他们的历史，比如谁买了它？
David Geffen buys it, and 16 years later, it’s donated to MoMA.
大卫·格芬 (David Geffen) 买下了它，16 年后，它被捐赠给了现代艺术博物馆 (MoMA)。
That would be a happy story, right?
这将是一个幸福的故事，对吗？
Right.
正确的。
Tell us the happy story — you don’t have to name names — and then tell us the less happy story.
告诉我们快乐的故事 — 你不必指名道姓 — 然后告诉我们不那么快乐的故事。
Hmm, it’s hard to do it without naming names.
嗯，不点名就很难做到。
Just “a prominent collector of high renown” would be fine.
只要“一位享有盛誉的杰出收藏家”就可以了。
There are so many self-delusions that are involved in being an artist, in the life of an artist, I think probably most of which are necessary, especially when you’re a young artist.
作为一名艺术家，在艺术家的生活中，有很多自我欺骗，我认为其中大部分可能是必要的，尤其是当你是一名年轻艺术家时。
And you have no right to think these things or feel these things or presume any of these things, but sometimes you’re encouraged by the people around you — dealers or collectors or other artists — that these delusions maybe are legitimate.
你没有权利思考这些事情、感受这些事情或假设任何这些事情，但有时你会受到周围人的鼓励——“经销商、收藏家或其他艺术家”——这些错觉可能是合理的。
I remember making a painting in the very early ’80s that I just thought was a winner.
我记得在 80 年代初画过一幅画，我认为它是一个胜利者。
My dealer at the time was basically just told, or she thought I wanted to hear, “This is a painting which we’re reserving for a museum.” In artist parlance it’s “museum only.” She even made a list of which museums would be likely.
当时我的经销商基本上只是被告知，或者她认为我想听，“这是我们为博物馆保留的一幅画。”用艺术家的话说，它“只是博物馆”。她甚至列出了可能的博物馆清单。
No museum was interested in this painting.
没有博物馆对这幅画感兴趣。
No major collector was interested in this painting.
没有主要收藏家对这幅画感兴趣。
I can’t remember what happened to the painting.
我不记得这幅画发生了什么。
The painting went to some collector, then it went to auction, then went to some other collector, went another auction.
这幅画去了一些收藏家，然后去拍卖，然后去了其他一些收藏家，又去拍卖。
I don’t even know where it is today.
我什至不知道今天在哪里。
I’ll be happy not to know where it is, but this was a painting that, at the time, I thought, “This is museum only.” The artist might be the last to know.
我很高兴不知道它在哪里，但这幅画当时我想，“这只是博物馆。”艺术家可能是最后一个知道的。
There have been a few happy stories.
发生了一些幸福的故事。
The happy stories are usually a result of a personal relationship with a collector or with a curator — someone who has followed what you’ve been trying to do and has been sympathetic with what you’ve been trying to do, and therefore is more attuned.
快乐的故事通常是与收藏家或策展人的个人关系的结果——他们一直关注你一直在尝试做的事情，并且同情你一直在尝试做的事情，因此更加合拍。
Their antenna is more attuned to when something is an opportunity.
当某件事是一个机会时，他们的天线更敏感。
There was one painting — actually the painting that you were looking at in the book earlier this morning — that was purchased by a very, very good collector on the West Coast, who is a very good friend of mine and someone who is very generous with other museums and with other artists.
有一幅画 ——实际上是你今天早上在书中看到的那幅画——是由西海岸一位非常非常优秀的收藏家购买的，他是我的一个非常好的朋友，也是一个对其他博物馆和其他艺术家非常慷慨的人。
The collector opened his collection to a curator from MoMA, basically saying, “Take whatever you want.” We thought sure that the curator was going to take this painting, which we had all agreed at the time had reached that level.
这位收藏家向现代艺术博物馆的策展人开放了他的藏品，基本上是说：“你想要什么就拿什么。”我们认为策展人肯定会接受这幅画，当时我们都认为它已经达到了这个水平。
But guess what, the curator didn’t take that painting, took a much lesser painting.
但你猜怎么着，策展人并没有拿走那幅画，而是拿走了一幅小得多的画。
We were baffled.
我们很困惑。
But anyway, it was the curator’s choice.
但无论如何，这是策展人的选择。
Then the painting, let’s say the A painting — I’ll use this horrible expression — kicked around for a while.
然后那幅画，比如说A画 —— 我就用这个可怕的表情 —— 踢了一段时间。
It was in some other collection.
它在其他一些收藏中。
It was shown in London a few times and then finally ended up in a very good collection in New York.
它在伦敦展出了几次，最后在纽约得到了很好的收藏。
This is the vagaries of commerce and taste that paintings are subjected to or are somehow intimately tied up with.
这就是绘画所受到的或以某种方式与之密切相关的商业和品味的变幻莫测。
If you think of the really great collectors — Herb and Dorothy Vogel, the Meyerhoffs, Eli Broad — opinions may differ, but what is it to you that they have in common as a class?
如果你想到真正伟大的收藏家——赫伯·沃格尔和多萝西·沃格尔、迈尔霍夫家族、伊莱·布罗德——观点可能会有所不同，但对你来说，他们作为一个阶层有什么共同点？
I’m not sure, Tyler.
我不确定，泰勒。
I can’t think of what they have in common.
我想不出他们有什么共同点。
They seem to me — and I would probably add a bunch of other names — it’s hard to generalize about them, honestly.
在我看来，他们 —— 我可能会添加一堆其他名字 —— 老实说，很难对它们进行概括。
They seem so different, one from another.
他们看起来如此不同，彼此不同。
I guess you can say their motivations are similar.
我想你可以说他们的动机是相似的。
For some reason, this work speaks to them, and they have arranged their lives in such way as to be, to a certain extent, themselves defined by this body of work that they’ve collected.
出于某种原因，这件作品对他们说话，他们安排自己的生活的方式在某种程度上是由他们收集的这些作品来定义的。
They didn’t create the work, but they created the context of the work.
他们没有创造作品，但他们创造了作品的背景。
It’s a kind of transference, a kind of produceorial arrangement.
这是一种移情，一种生产安排。
It’s no accident, I think, that some of the most active collectors have been producers — movie producers or theatrical producers.
我认为，一些最活跃的收藏家都是制片人——电影制片人或戏剧制片人，这并非偶然。
There’s a will toward making meaning.
有一种创造意义的意愿。
There’s a will toward wanting to say something about one’s time and place.
有一种想要谈论自己的时间和地点的意愿。
They’re all very interesting and very laudable.
他们都很有趣，也非常值得称赞。
Sometimes it’s just greed.
有时只是贪婪。
They just love these things.
他们就是喜欢这些东西。
They don’t want to part with them.
他们不想与他们分开。
They don’t want anyone else to have them.
他们不希望其他人拥有它们。
They just want them.
他们只是想要他们。
That seems fine with me.
我觉得这很好。
But most of the really great ones, the active ones, sooner or later, maybe just out of practical considerations of wanting to share their collection with the public, which is certainly the American system that we’ve evolved.
但大多数真正伟大的、活跃的，迟早可能只是出于想要与公众分享他们的收藏的实际考虑，这当然是我们发展起来的美国体系。
How are artists different as collectors?
艺术家与收藏家有何不同？
You have a collection of your own, right?
你有自己的收藏，对吧？
Yes.
是的。
I do find artists collect more from an informational standpoint.
我确实发现艺术家从信息的角度收集更多。
The artist owes nothing to the art world vis-à-vis their collection.
就其收藏而言，艺术家对艺术界没有任何贡献。
The artist isn’t making a statement about the world in their collection, nor is the artist judged by their collection.
艺术家并没有在他们的收藏中发表关于世界的声明，也没有通过他们的收藏来评判艺术家。
Their collection is really a private matter.
他们的收藏确实是私人事务。
It’s more like a library.
它更像是一个图书馆。
I know, for example, my friend Jeff Koons collects Courbet paintings, which I would do if I could afford them.
例如，我知道我的朋友杰夫·昆斯（Jeff Koons）收集库尔贝的画作，如果我能买得起的话我也会这么做。
I think that’s great.
我认为那太好了。
He doesn’t collect art like his own.
他不像他自己那样收藏艺术品。
He collects art very, very different from his own.
他收藏的艺术品与他自己的艺术品非常非常不同。
I collect things that are very different from what I make, and I don’t actually live with my work in the house.
我收集的东西与我制作的东西非常不同，而且我实际上并不把我的作品放在家里。
The way in which an artist uses another artist’s work is sometimes very eccentric and hard to trace, or hard to see at first.
一位艺术家使用另一位艺术家作品的方式有时非常古怪，难以追踪，或者一开始很难看到。
I think artists’ collections have more to do with wanting to be reminded about something, wanting to be nudged by something, wanting to have something as a touchstone.
我认为艺术家的收藏更多地与想要被提醒某件事、想要被某件事推动、想要有某事作为试金石有关。
Sometimes it has the spiritual component of a Buddhist scholar’s rock or something of the sort.
有时它具有佛教学者的岩石或类似的东西的精神成分。
Sometimes it’s something relatively insignificant, but it’s a reminder or a link to a whole other world, another experience.
有时它是相对无关紧要的事情，但它是一个提醒或与另一个世界、另一种体验的联系。
Why is it that Frank O’Hara has been so important to both you and Alex Katz?
为什么弗兰克·奥哈拉对你和亚历克斯·卡茨如此重要？
Alex painted Frank, as you probably know, right?
亚历克斯画了弗兰克，你可能知道，对吧？
Definitely.
确实。
Frank was important to Alex for a number of reasons.
出于多种原因，弗兰克对亚历克斯很重要。
Probably the most important reason is that Alex is a great consumer of and connoisseur of poetry generally, and New York School poetry in particular, and they were contemporaries and friends.
也许最重要的原因是亚历克斯是诗歌的伟大消费者和鉴赏家，特别是纽约学派诗歌，他们是同时代人和朋友。
It’s inconceivable that Alex wouldn’t have been interested in or close to Frank O’Hara.
亚历克斯对弗兰克·奥哈拉不感兴趣或不亲近是不可思议的。
Unfortunately, I didn’t get to meet Frank O’Hara, but I discovered his poetry when I was a kid.
不幸的是，我没有见到弗兰克·奥哈拉，但我在小时候就发现了他的诗歌。
It spoke to me for whatever reason.
无论出于什么原因，它都对我说话。
It’s very easy, as poetry goes, to grasp.
正如诗歌所说，这很容易掌握。
He continues to epitomize something about that time and place of the late ’40s to the mid ’60s, late ’60s, which still remains a touchstone and is also still full of mystery and full of sensibility.
他继续概括着40年代末到60年代中期的那个时间和地点，60年代末仍然是一块试金石，也仍然充满神秘和感性。
Let’s say it’s where one finds the roots of a certain sensibility, which for me is still very much alive, maybe not for anybody else.
假设这是一个人找到某种情感根源的地方，这种情感对我来说仍然非常活跃，也许对其他人来说却不然。
He is the certain kind of painter’s poet par excellence.
他是某种杰出的画家诗人。
He is the poet of nouns, poet of things, the poet of appearances, and the poet of connections between things.
他是名词的诗人、事物的诗人、表象的诗人、事物之间联系的诗人。
In a way, he’s the perfect poet.
从某种意义上说，他是一位完美的诗人。
It’s a list of names, but it’s more than a list of names.
这是一个名字列表，但它不仅仅是一个名字列表。
It’s what happened at the party, but it’s also about mortality.
这是聚会上发生的事情，但也与死亡有关。
It’s about beauty, but it’s also about degradation.
这是关于美丽，但也是关于退化。
It’s very accessible and very musical.
它非常容易理解并且非常具有音乐性。
I don’t think it’s an accident.
我不认为这是一次意外。
I think that many, many painters would like his work.
我想很多很多画家都会喜欢他的作品。
Which is your favorite Preston Sturges movie and why?
您最喜欢普雷斯顿·斯特奇斯的哪部电影？为什么？
They’re all so great.
他们都很棒。
I think the one I’ve seen the most — doesn’t mean I think it’s necessarily the greatest — but the one I’ve seen the most is The Lady Eve.
我认为我看过最多的一部 ——并不意味着我认为它一定是最伟大的—— 但我看过最多的一部是《伊芙女士》。
I’ve seen it at least 20 times.
我已经看过至少20次了。
I still laugh.
我仍然笑。
It still cracks me up.
它仍然让我心碎。
I think of Sturges’s all five of the great films as one film.
我认为斯特奇斯的所有五部伟大电影都是一部电影。
It’s actually one super-long film which just keeps playing in my head.
这实际上是一部超长的电影，一直在我的脑海里播放。
Hail the Conquering Hero is certainly the most complex and, in a way, almost painful, psychologically painful.
征服英雄万岁无疑是最复杂的，在某种程度上，几乎是痛苦的，心理上的痛苦。
And at the time it was made, it was quite radical, that most viewers may not have seen that.
在它制作的时候，它是相当激进的，大多数观众可能没有看到这一点。
Yeah, it’s a great film.
是的，这是一部很棒的电影。
It’s a great achievement.
这是一项伟大的成就。
The crowd scenes, the image of the town.
人群场景，小镇形象。
I love Sturges’s depiction of a town, the light of a town.
我喜欢斯特吉斯对一座城镇的描绘，一座城镇的光芒。
His other films are centered on much smaller social groups.
他的其他电影主要针对较小的社会群体。
In a way, it was his Frank Capra film — maybe Sullivan’s Travels is the most delicious.
在某种程度上，这是他的弗兰克·卡普拉电影——也许沙利文的《游记》是最美味的。
I don’t know, they’re all so great.
我不知道，他们都太棒了。
That’s my favorite.
这是我最喜欢的。
Sullivan’s Travels?
沙利文的游记？
The complex narrative of what art should be for, which can be read in a number of different directions.
关于艺术的用途的复杂叙述，可以从多个不同的方向来解读。
Yeah.
是的。
There’s an obscure early one called The Sin of Harold Diddlebock.
早期有一部不起眼的作品，名叫《哈罗德·迪德尔伯克的罪孽》。
You know that one?
你知道那个吗？
No, I don’t.
不，我不。
With Harold Lloyd.
与哈罗德·劳埃德。
It’s this weird film.
这是一部奇怪的电影。
A guy who works in a bank who’s never had a drink in his life.
一个在银行工作的人，一生中从未喝过酒。
He finally gets laid off at the bank, takes the money — his severance pay — goes to a bar for the first time in his life, and we see him the next morning having purchased a circus, which he brings home.
他终于在银行被解雇了，拿着钱——他的遣散费——生平第一次去了一家酒吧，第二天早上我们看到他买了一个马戏团，然后把它带回家。
He’s living with his sister.
他和他妹妹住在一起。
Anyway, crazy Preston Sturges plot.
不管怎样，疯狂的普雷斯顿·斯特奇斯阴谋。
Now, Sturges is fabulous; he’s something I think about a lot.
现在，斯特奇斯非常出色。他是我经常思考的人。
Why do you find the TV show The Sopranos so interesting?
为什么你觉得电视剧《黑道家族》如此有趣？
Very much like the way I think about painting, the way I think about art in general, but The Sopranos show is someone who took the conventions of the day of gangsters, mafia, cops, and made out of it something which hadn’t existed, just psychological realism that had a texture, an almost granular texture of life as it’s lived so that people who have no .
很像我对绘画的看法，对一般艺术的看法，但《黑道家族》的展览采用了黑帮、黑手党、警察那个时代的惯例，并从中创造出了一些不存在的东西，只是具有质感的心理现实主义，一种近乎颗粒状的生活质感，让那些没有生活的人能够感受到生活的质感。
.
。
.
。
Most of us have no encounters with the mafia, really.
事实上，我们大多数人都没有接触过黑手党。
We all imagined that we were part of the mafia, and we all projected ourselves into these families and social groups in which this mafia behavior was completely normalized.
我们都想象自己是黑手党的一部分，我们都把自己投射到这些家庭和社会群体中，在这些家庭和社会群体中，黑手党的行为完全正常化。
David Chase made out of this convention something so psychologically dense, so much about the family, the damage that families do to one another, the constraints of society versus the individual, the stifling of imagination.
大卫·蔡斯（David Chase）从这一惯例中得出了一些心理上非常密集的东西，很多关于家庭、家庭对彼此造成的伤害、社会对个人的限制、想象力的窒息。
He managed to make out of this crime drama metaphors for almost every dilemma in American society, from the inability of the individual to be different, to survive.
他成功地从这部犯罪剧中隐喻了美国社会的几乎所有困境，从个人无法与众不同到生存。
All these issues which we now think of as commonplace — that you could locate them inside of a weekly drama about a crime family still seems to me to have been miraculous, and also a model for what art can do or how it should think of itself, that it’s the engagement with certain givens, and then who the hell knows where it’s going to go after that.
所有这些我们现在认为司空见惯的问题——你可以在一部关于犯罪家庭的每周电视剧中找到它们，在我看来仍然是奇迹，而且也是艺术可以做什么或它应该如何思考自己的模型，它是与某些给定的接触，然后谁知道它之后会去哪里。
How should we change intellectual property law for artists?
我们应该如何改变艺术家的知识产权法？
I am somewhat vague myself on what it even says now.
我自己现在对它所说的内容有些模糊。
There had been some cases — I’m not sure how they were settled or to what extent they’re landmarks.
曾经有过一些案例 —— 我不确定它们是如何解决的，或者它们在多大程度上具有里程碑意义。
But I do feel, in terms of visual culture, I’ve spent a good part of my career appropriating things that other people did.
但我确实觉得，就视觉文化而言，我职业生涯的很大一部分时间都在挪用其他人所做的事情。
You could say it’s just wrong.
你可以说这是错误的。
Often, that would certainly be a position that would be hard to argue with.
通常，这肯定是一个很难反驳的立场。
My position is very different — that everything that exists, exists in the present tense, and that everything can be material for someone else without violating its original status, and that one thing doesn’t impinge on the other.
我的立场非常不同——一切存在的事物都以现在时存在，一切事物对其他人来说都可以是物质的，而不违反其原始状态，并且一件事不会影响另一件事。
It doesn’t need to be protected because if it’s any good, it protects itself.
它不需要受到保护，因为如果它有任何好处，它就会保护自己。
That’s my view.
这是我的观点。
I don’t know what the law says.
我不知道法律是怎么说的。
In my view, it’s too hard to appropriate images, whether in painting or in rap music, or the difference between who can have the rights to a painting, the rights to a photograph.
在我看来，无论是在绘画中还是在说唱音乐中，或者谁可以拥有绘画权利和照片权利之间的区别，挪用图像都太难了。
Just seems too complicated.
只是看起来太复杂了。
I think there should be more open access.
我认为应该有更多的开放访问。
To close, I’d like to offer three different statements from you, as we started, and you can tell us what you meant by each one.
最后，我想在我们开始时提出您的三项不同的陈述，您可以告诉我们每一项的含义。
Here’s one, and I quote, “One of the principal cultural alliances is between the avant-garde and sexual libertinism.”
我引用其中的一个：“主要的文化联盟之一是前卫派和性放荡主义之间的联盟。”
I wish it were true.
我希望这是真的。
It seems as though the avant-garde is no more protected from puritanicalism than any other segment of society, so I think I was wrong on that one.
似乎前卫艺术并不比社会的其他部分更能免受清教主义的影响，所以我认为我在这一点上是错误的。
I think it was wishful thinking.
我认为这是一厢情愿的想法。
Here’s another one from you.
这是你的另一封信。
“It may surprise you, but my work is full of love.”
“这可能会让你感到惊讶，但我的作品充满了爱。”
Well, the second part is true.
嗯，第二部分是真的。
The surprise part — obviously, it depends on who you ask and what day.
令人惊讶的部分是——显然，这取决于你问的是谁以及哪一天。
I don’t know if it would be possible to make a survey, or who would give you an honest answer, but I wonder if every artist, or rather how many artists feel that the views to which their work has been put in public, and then the fact that it’s been put to any use at all is already a huge privilege and something that I’m grateful for, and I think everyone is grateful for.
我不知道是否可以做一个调查，也不知道谁能给你一个诚实的答案，但我想知道是否每个艺术家，或者说有多少艺术家都觉得，他们的作品被公开表达的观点，以及它被投入使用的事实已经是一种巨大的荣幸，也是我感激的事情，我想每个人都感激不已。
However, let me try to rephrase it.
不过，让我尝试重新表述一下。
If the gap between the way one’s work has been perceived and the way one perceives it oneself — how big is that gap and why is it so big?
如果一个人的作品被感知的方式与他自己感知它的方式之间存在差距——“这个差距有多大，为什么这么大？”
Is the fact there’s a gap a failure on the part of the artist?
存在差距是不是艺术家的失败？
Quite possibly, that’s certainly one way to read it.
很可能，这确实是阅读它的一种方式。
Is it simply a matter of more time is necessary?
这仅仅是需要更多时间的问题吗？
I like to think that’s the answer, but I could be wrong.
我喜欢认为这就是答案，但我可能是错的。
Over time, the acid in the paintings gets dialed down or actually just leaks out, and what’s left is — I don’t know if its opposite is exactly right, but something very different.
随着时间的推移，画中的酸逐渐减弱，或者实际上只是泄漏出来，剩下的就是 —— 我不知道它的对立面是否完全正确，但有些非常不同的东西。
Let’s put it this way, Tyler: Making a painting — as you just said, even appropriating something is a lot of work — making a painting is a lot of work.
泰勒，这么说吧：画一幅画 ——就像你刚才说的，即使挪用一些东西也是很多工作 —— 画一幅画也是很多工作。
Making a painting that hangs together — it holds together, the elements hold together, the colors are in the right intervals, and all the formal elements work and subject-matter elements work — it’s a hell of a lot of work.
制作一幅连在一起的画——“它连在一起，元素连在一起，颜色处于正确的间隔，所有的形式元素和主题元素都起作用”——这是一项艰巨的工作。
To go to all that trouble just to be a smart-ass — it’s not worth it.
为了成为一个自作聪明的人而费尽心思——这是不值得的。
You have to have a little bit bigger game in mind.
你必须考虑一个更大的游戏。
Anyone who makes a painting on any level is trying to communicate something fairly complex and fairly involved with, for want of a better word, human emotions.
任何人在任何层面上创作一幅画，都在试图传达一些相当复杂的东西，并且需要一个更好的词来表达人类的情感。
Again, to return us to our original question, the language that we use to talk about these things — that these things are cool, these things are hot — I’m just not sure that any of that stuff means anything.
再次，让我们回到最初的问题，我们用来谈论这些事情的语言 ——“这些事情很酷，这些事情很热门”—— 我只是不确定这些东西是否意味着什么。
The last question is a hypothetical one you posed to your former teacher, John Baldessari, and I quote, “Which is better for an artist, to be loved or feared?”
最后一个问题是你向你的前任老师约翰·巴尔代萨里提出的一个假设问题，我引用一下：“对艺术家来说，被爱和被恐惧哪个更好？”
I think to be loved is much better, but I’ve known artists who would choose the other option.
我认为被爱要好得多，但我认识一些艺术家会选择其他选择。
David Salle, thank you very much.
大卫·萨尔，非常感谢你。
Thank you, Tyler.
谢谢你，泰勒。