David Robertson on Conducting, Pierre Boulez, and Musical Interpretation (Ep. 248)

Thanks to listener Timothy Kubarych, writer of financial and economic poetry, for sponsoring this transcript.

感谢听众、金融和经济诗歌作家蒂莫西·库巴里奇 (Timothy Kubarych) 赞助这份文字记录。

He teaches at Julliard, and he conducts regularly at the Metropolitan Opera in New York.

他在茱莉亚音乐学院任教，并定期在纽约大都会歌剧院进行指挥。

This November, he’s conducting with the New York Philharmonic, an exciting concert featuring Stravinsky’s Petrushka, 1911 edition.

今年 11 月，他将与纽约爱乐乐团合作举办一场激动人心的音乐会，其中包括斯特拉文斯基 1911 年版本的《彼得鲁什卡》。

David, welcome.

大卫，欢迎。

On Pierre Boulez

关于皮埃尔·布列兹

Then later on, I figured out how to get into the studio where the BBC Symphony Orchestra rehearses.

后来，我想出了如何进入BBC交响乐团排练的录音室。

I would go to rehearsals that he had, and he was always very nice, and he would say hello when he saw the stranger sitting in the back of the room, but I never had the courage to speak to him.

我会去参加他的排练，他总是很好，当他看到坐在房间后面的陌生人时，他会打招呼，但我从来没有勇气和他说话。

COWEN: He had this reputation of being a bit severe and uncompromising.

考恩：他以有点严厉和不妥协而闻名。

Do you think that’s wrong?

你认为这是错误的吗？

In fact, what was fascinating doing a number of his works — I remember in Japan, I was lucky enough to fall into the opportunity to give the world premiere of Explosante-fixe, and that was because he had knee problems.

事实上，他的一些作品的迷人之处在于 —— 我记得在日本，我很幸运能够有机会进行《Explosante-fixe》的全球首映，那是因为他的膝盖有问题。

So, the tour that we had made for Italy and Germany — he was just not going to be able to do because of waiting around for airplanes, and it was extremely painful.

所以，我们去意大利和德国的旅行——他因为要等飞机而无法参加，这是非常痛苦的。

I got to rehearse the piece with him in the hall, right behind all of the computers.

我必须和他一起在大厅里排练这首曲子，就在所有电脑后面。

I heard him rehearse it first with the ensemble and work things out.

我听到他先和乐团一起排练，然后解决问题。

That was fascinating, both to see someone working with players and have a clarinet player say, “This actual tremolo between these two notes doesn’t work very well.” To have the man that I would think of as supremely knowledgeable about writing for instruments say, “Oh, well, if we did this one, would it work better?” And the player says, “Yes, sure, that’s fine.” To see this kind of flexibility with his own works, and then to be up in front, conducting and having the computer create the sounds in real time based on the information that the MIDI flute was giving it.

这很有趣，无论是看到有人与演奏者一起工作，还是让单簧管演奏者说，“这两个音符之间的实际颤音效果不太好。”让一个我认为对乐器写作非常了解的人说：“哦，好吧，如果我们这样做，效果会更好吗？”玩家说：“是的，当然，那很好。”在他自己的作品中看到这种灵活性，然后站在前面，指挥并让计算机根据 MIDI 长笛提供的信息实时创建声音。

For me to say, “Pierre, I think it’s actually just a little too fast for us to be able to — ” and he said, “Oh, just a minute.

对于我来说，“皮埃尔，我认为这实际上有点太快了，我们无法 - ”，他说，“哦，等一下。

Just a minute.

请等一下。

We’ll make the calculations.” He calculated everything so it would be slightly slower.

我们会进行计算。”他计算了一切，所以速度会慢一些。

I turned with some chagrin to the ensemble and said, “Do you know how we recalculate the tempo?” And I just gave an upbeat.

我有些懊恼地转向乐团说：“你们知道我们如何重新计算节奏吗？”我只是表示乐观。

This was one of the things that we worked on together in a sense.

从某种意义上说，这是我们共同努力的事情之一。

It was very close collaboration.

这是非常密切的合作。

But then about two years later for a big birthday celebration in Tokyo, I was doing a performance of it in Kioi Hall.

但大约两年后，在东京举行的一次大型生日庆祝活动中，我在纪尾井大厅表演了这首歌。

We got to the slow central passage of Transitoire VII, which is the first movement of Explosante-fixe, and I remember thinking, “This is so incredibly sensual, and it sounds so beautiful in this hall, I’m going to really push the envelope.” I think Pierre’s tempo marking is ♩=40, which is quite slow, but I was down almost at the double of that, like ♪=40.

我们到达了《Transitoire VII》缓慢的中央通道，这是《Explosante-fixe》的第一乐章，我记得我当时想，“这真是令人难以置信的感性，在这个大厅里听起来如此美丽，我要真正挑战极限。”我认为皮埃尔的节奏标记是♩=40，这相当慢，但我几乎在两倍的速度下落后，就像♪=40。

It was the most unbelievably seductive Ravelian sound that you could imagine.

这是你能想象到的最令人难以置信、诱人的拉威尔式声音。

After the rehearsal, Pierre was there, and I went up to him, and I said, “Pierre, I’m very sorry.

排练结束后，皮埃尔也在场，我走到他跟前说：“皮埃尔，我很抱歉。

I really indulged in this little section.” He said, “No, no, no, no, you can actually do more.” That was the moment where I realized he has no problem when the emotion is put into his works in an immensely intense way, but he is not able to do that himself as a performer.

我真的很沉迷于这个小部分。”他说：“不，不，不，不，你实际上可以做得更多。”就在那一刻，我意识到，当情感以极其强烈的方式投入到他的作品中时，他没有任何问题，但他自己作为一个表演者却无法做到这一点。

There are a lot of his works where I have done things in his presence, which he doesn’t do, and you won’t find it on his recordings.

他的很多作品里我都在他面前做了一些他没有做的事情，你在他的录音里也找不到。

He said, “Oh, yes, that’s really very nice.

他说：“哦，是的，那真是太好了。

That’s lovely.” It’s a fascinating question, this one of how does one express emotion and how comfortable is one with emotions in public.

太可爱了。”这是一个令人着迷的问题，一个人如何表达情感，以及一个人在公共场合表达情感有多舒服。

We did the Notations VII with Pierre in Lyon, and so he heard all of that, and there was no sense of, no, no, no, you shouldn’t do this like that.

我们在里昂和皮埃尔一起做了《Notations VII》，所以他听到了所有这些，并且没有任何感觉，不，不，不，你不应该那样做。

It’s a fascinating thing, working with composers, not only with Pierre but with all sorts of different composers because of that sense of here’s what it sounds like in my head, not in an acoustic, not with real players who are putting things in.

与作曲家合作是一件很有趣的事情，不仅是与皮埃尔，还与各种不同的作曲家合作，因为这就是我脑海中听起来的感觉，而不是在原声音乐中，而不是与真正的演奏家一起投入东西。

In fact, one of the difficulties I’ve found with composers who work with electronic sounds, electroacoustic music and with live performers is that they constantly feel that the live performers are inflecting their music with something new and allowing it to develop.

事实上，我发现与电子声音、电声音乐和现场表演者一起工作的作曲家遇到的困难之一是，他们不断地感觉到现场表演者正在用新的东西改变他们的音乐并使其发展。

Whereas, the thing that has been worked out, however sophisticated, in the electronic area, lies there inert while the living musicians move along.

然而，在电子领域已经解决的问题，无论多么复杂，当活着的音乐家继续前进时，它就静止不动了。

On non-Western influences in Boulez’s music

论布列兹音乐中的非西方影响

This was a company that the French government used in the aftermath of the Second World War to tour around a great deal, and to some extent, to show what was happening in French culture, in this case, in theater.

第二次世界大战后，法国政府利用这家公司进行了大量的巡回演出，并在某种程度上展示了法国文化中正在发生的事情，在这种情况下，是在剧院中。

Pierre got to go to all sorts of places that at the time, were totally not touristic.

皮埃尔去了当时完全不适合旅游的各种地方。

He remembers flying — they gave you wax to put in the ears when you flew over the Andes and little tubes with oxygen would come down that you would put in your nose.

他记得飞行时——当你飞越安第斯山脉时，他们会给你蜡，塞在耳朵里，然后装有氧气的小管子会下来，你可以把它塞到鼻子里。

All sorts of things like this that gave it a real character.

诸如此类的种种因素赋予了它真实的性格。

He happened to be in the Caribbean, and he was walking along the beach.

他碰巧在加勒比海，他正在沿着海滩散步。

This was before Club Med or anything like this, so there were no tourists.

这是在 Club Med 或类似的地方之前，所以没有游客。

As he was coming along the shore, he kept hearing this strange sound.

当他沿着海岸走来时，他不断听到这种奇怪的声音。

As he got closer, these were steel drum players.

走近一看，这些都是钢鼓手。

This sound always stayed with him.

这个声音一直伴随着他。

I think this is similar to the experience of many French composers, where all of a sudden, a gamelan is brought to the Paris Exposition, and it completely changes the idea of what you think of as sound coming in.

我觉得这和很多法国作曲家的经历很相似，突然间，一个加美兰被带到了巴黎博览会，它彻底改变了你对声音传入的看法。

This is a constant — the African masks and Picasso and Braque, and the whole idea of changing the perspective of things in Cubism.

这是一个常数——非洲面具、毕加索和布拉克，以及改变立体主义事物视角的整个想法。

There’s so much in Pierre’s music that is about his paying attention and listening all the time, whether it’s to Scottish bagpipes, to work out this idea of “Oh wait, the chanter has all of these tiny little notes that it plays and they have very specific rules for how they play these.

皮埃尔的音乐中有很多关于他始终关注和倾听的内容，无论是苏格兰风笛，还是为了弄清楚“哦等等，吟唱者演奏的所有这些微小的音符，他们对如何演奏这些音符有非常具体的规则”。

I like this idea and I’m going to bring it into my music.”

我喜欢这个想法，我会把它带入我的音乐中。”

We did a fabulous production of Le Marteau sans maître with the ballet of Régine Chopinot, Ballet Atlantique, with this fabulous choreography to Le Marteau sans maître, which meant I needed to conduct it.

我们与雷吉娜·肖皮诺的芭蕾舞剧《大西洋芭蕾舞团》一起制作了精彩的《无大师的马托》，并为《无大师的马托》进行了精彩的编舞，这意味着我需要指挥它。

I came in and I realized that my first Le Marteau sans maître was going to be the 293rd that the ensemble was playing.

我进来后意识到我的第一首《Le Marteau sans maître》将是该乐团演奏的第 293 首。

My first couple of seasons, I felt like I was drinking from a fire hydrant.

我的前几个赛季，我感觉就像在从消防栓里喝水。

At the same time, what was interesting working with that group is that they brought the deep knowledge of his chamber music, of his whole repertoire that you might find in a great symphony orchestra with regard to Beethoven.

与此同时，与该团队合作的有趣之处在于，他们带来了对他的室内乐和他的全部曲目的深入了解，这些知识你可能会在伟大的交响乐团中找到有关贝多芬的内容。

You automatically start imbibing all of these different ideas.

你会自动开始吸收所有这些不同的想法。

What ends up happening is that, for example, for Explosante-fixe — that’s a work that has lots of shifting patterns but it’s written in mosaic form.

最终发生的事情是，例如，《Explosante-fixe》——这是一部有很多变化模式的作品，但它是以马赛克形式写成的。

Sometimes, to help the audience understand that, I will talk to them at the beginning and give musical examples, which requires me to look at the audience with my microphone and conduct the group that is behind me, with the score behind me at the same time.

有时，为了帮助观众理解这一点，我会在开始时与他们交谈并给出音乐示例，这需要我用麦克风看着观众并指挥我身后的乐队，同时我身后有乐谱。

I could do the whole piece by heart.

我可以背诵整首曲子。

I prefer by heart rather than from memory, because I think the notion is that, like any kind of music, it means so much to you that there’s no way you could forget it, in the same way that you can’t forget your parents’ names because they have volumes of experience and love and connection that are attached to those names.

我更喜欢用心记而不是凭记忆，因为我认为这个概念是，就像任何类型的音乐一样，它对你来说意义重大，你不可能忘记它，就像你无法忘记你父母的名字一样，因为他们有大量的经验、爱和联系与这些名字相连。

That becomes the same way in a piece that you really love dearly, as some of the Boulez speaks to me.

正如布列兹的一些人对我所说的那样，在你真正热爱的作品中也是如此。

That’s why the notation in Trois petites liturgies, which comes from the second movement of Olivier Messiaen, requires those differing time signatures, because otherwise, if you measure it by a grid, everything else that doesn’t fit in the grid becomes a syncopation.

这就是为什么来自奥利维耶·梅西安第二乐章的《Trois petites liturgies》中的记谱需要这些不同的拍号，因为否则，如果你用网格来测量它，所有不适合网格的东西都会变成切分音。

There’s nothing wrong with this.

这并没有什么问题。

This is what is so wonderful about the grid that jazz players are able to manufacture, where there’s so much push and pull with the grid, and that’s, actually, where a great deal of the energy comes from.

这就是爵士乐演奏者能够制造的网格的奇妙之处，网格有如此多的推力和拉力，实际上，这就是大量能量的来源。

At the same time, for Pierre, there are many pieces in which, for example, the second mosaic piece at the beginning of Mémoriale or Originel, the last movement of Explosante-fixe, .

同时，对于皮埃尔来说，还有很多作品，例如《Mémoriale》或《Originel》开头的第二个马赛克作品，《Explosante-fixe》的最后一个乐章。

You can’t really do that in a strict meter.

你实际上无法以严格的标准做到这一点。

It’s 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

是 1、2、3、4、1、2、3、1、2、3、1、2、3、4、5、6、1、2、3、1、2、3、1、2、3、4、5、6、7、8。

If you tried to push that into a box, it would be a little bit like trying to take a very beautiful flower and squishing it down into a little glass case, where the whole reason you like the flower is because it has these expressions of space that otherwise are cut off.

如果你试图把它塞进一个盒子里，那就有点像试图把一朵非常美丽的花压进一个小玻璃盒里，你喜欢这朵花的全部原因是因为它有这些空间表达，否则这些空间表达就会被切断。

This is one of the challenges.

这是挑战之一。

My sense, in any piece of music that I play, is to try and make it — regardless of when it was written — contemporary in the sense that it speaks to us now because we are contemporary.

我的感觉是，在我演奏的任何音乐作品中，都试图使其“——”无论它何时写成”——“当代，因为它现在对我们说话，因为我们是当代的。

When I’m doing Mozart, I’m not expecting the audience to come in a horse and carriage and have knee breeches, and then to die from appendicitis on the early side.

当我表演莫扎特时，我并不期望观众乘坐马车、穿着及膝马裤，然后在早期死于阑尾炎。

There are lots of things that one does, and I think that, from that point of view, there are certain works of Pierre’s that have become kinds of classics.

一个人做了很多事情，我认为，从这个角度来看，皮埃尔的某些作品已经成为经典。

The whole reason for this mixtape that I play to the conductors is to get them to understand that, whether or not you feel musically sophisticated, the speed with which your brain decides, “Ah, yes, for me.

我给指挥们播放这张混音带的全部目的是让他们明白，无论你是否觉得自己在音乐上很成熟，你的大脑决定的速度，“啊，是的，对我来说。

No, not for me,” is very, very quick.

不，不适合我”，速度非常非常快。

That’s one of the things that I think we, as performers and programmers, have to take into account when we are deciding to do something.

我认为这是我们作为表演者和程序员在决定做某事时必须考虑的事情之一。

For example, the little introduction that I do to Explosante-fixe is because if I start with Transitoires VII, which feels a little bit like you take your seat in the concert hall and suddenly it’s transformed into one of the runways at JFK and there are large Airbus 300s coming in right over your head, it can be a little bit scary.

例如，我对 Explosante-fixe 做的小介绍是因为，如果我从 Transitoires VII 开始，感觉有点像你在音乐厅坐下来，突然它变成了肯尼迪机场的跑道之一，大型空客 300 飞机从你头顶飞过，这可能有点吓人。

Whereas if I start with the delicate part of the piece, which is at the end, and give them a couple of things to think about, all of a sudden there’s enough context that that airport runway experience makes sense within the whole thing.

然而，如果我从作品最后的微妙部分开始，并给他们一些需要思考的事情，突然之间就有足够的背景，机场跑道体验在整个事情中变得有意义。

I think that’s where this idea of what is contemporary for each individual audience member is a tricky one to generalize about.

我认为这就是每个观众的当代观念很难概括的地方。

On why to listen to contemporary classical music

论为什么要听当代古典音乐

For example, there are people who have incredible senses of pitch.

例如，有些人具有令人难以置信的音高感。

I’m thinking of the composer George Benjamin or the late Peter , who, if they hear a pitch, can tell you how many cents it is above the normal one that you would play on the piano.

我想到作曲家乔治·本杰明或已故的彼得，如果他们听到一个音高，他们可以告诉你它比你在钢琴上弹奏的正常音高了多少美分。

It’s just uncanny to me because I can’t do that.

这对我来说很不可思议，因为我做不到。

At the same time, when I’m listening to music — and maybe this is the residual of being a recovering horn player — I hear the overtone structure of pitches, I have realized, much more than many of my musical colleagues.

与此同时，当我听音乐时 ——也许这是作为一个恢复中的圆号演奏者的残余—— 我意识到，我听到的音高的泛音结构比我的许多音乐同事要多得多。

It’s not that they don’t hear them, but it doesn’t enter into their calculation of what’s important in music.

并不是他们没有听到这些声音，而是他们没有考虑音乐中什么是重要的。

So, each composer has these particular unique experiences that they’ve had as a musician.

因此，每位作曲家都有作为音乐家的独特经历。

Then they use that with their own imagination to come up with ideas that they hope are saying something that is unique and that has not been said before.

然后他们用自己的想象力想出一些想法，他们希望这些想法是独特的、以前从未说过的。

What this means is that, similar to what happened in poetry in the 20th century and in our century, all of a sudden, it feels as if the rules which we used to be able to hold onto when we were listening to something that was new and with which we were unfamiliar, are suddenly broken down, and it feels like a free-for-all.

这意味着，就像20世纪和我们这个世纪的诗歌中所发生的那样，突然之间，我们感觉以前在听一些新的、不熟悉的东西时能够遵守的规则突然被打破了，感觉就像是一场混战。

What do I do?

我该怎么办？

Then different people’s comfort with discomfort is something that I think contemporary classical music really deals with.

那么我认为当代古典音乐真正涉及的就是不同人的舒适与不适。

There are ways of listening where you can take in the whole thing and say, “But I tend to like music that is more consonant.” I can find you a whole group of contemporary composers who agree with you, who like consonant music.

有多种聆听方式可以让你了解整个事情并说：“但我倾向于喜欢更和谐的音乐。”我可以为你找到一整群与你观点一致、喜欢辅音音乐的当代作曲家。

Then there are other people who say, “I find that in my philosophical outlook, much consonant music that’s being written today feels like it’s somehow a cop out, that actually reality is a much trickier and nastier beast.”

然后还有其他人说，“我发现在我的哲学观中，今天写的很多辅音音乐感觉像是一种逃避，实际上现实是一头更棘手、更肮脏的野兽。”

I will say that my own background is one where I am slightly prejudiced against things that are ultra-complex.

我要说的是，我自己的背景是我对超复杂的事物略有偏见。

I have spent much of my life being convinced, after engaging with a work, that there’s much more, and that I should reserve judgment before I really start to understand things.

在从事一项工作之后，我一生中的大部分时间都相信，还有更多的事情，而且在我真正开始理解事物之前，我应该保留判断力。

He passed away very suddenly.

他去世得很突然。

Pierre took one of the fragments that he had written around the memorial of Stravinsky and wrote this piece originally for flute solo, and in trying to work on the piece for its premiere at a memorial concert for Lawrence Beauregard the flutist, he and Sophie Cherrier felt that something was missing.

皮埃尔选取了他围绕斯特拉文斯基纪念馆所写的片段之一，最初为长笛独奏而写了这首曲子，在尝试为长笛演奏家劳伦斯·博勒加德的纪念音乐会上首演该曲子时，他和索菲·切里尔感到缺少了一些东西。

So overnight, he wrote this accompaniment part for the strings and the two horns, and it is an absolute gem.

所以一夜之间，他写出了这个弦乐和两个圆号的伴奏部分，这绝对是一个瑰宝。

At five minutes, it won’t take too much out of your time, and you won’t feel as though you have spent your time incorrectly.

五分钟，不会占用你太多时间，你也不会觉得自己浪费了时间。

On the skills of conducting

论指挥技巧

There’s an unwritten rule in an orchestra that you don’t turn around and look at somebody, even if they’ve played something great.

管弦乐队里有一条不成文的规则，那就是你不能转身看某人，即使他们演奏了很棒的作品。

I think that part of our job is to show the rest of the players, gee, how great that was.

我认为我们工作的一部分就是向其他玩家展示，天哪，那有多棒。

Part of the flexibility comes from if, let’s say, the oboe player has the reed from God tonight, that if they want to stay on the high note a little bit longer, or the soprano at the Metropolitan Opera, that you just say, “Yes, let’s do this.

部分灵活性来自于，比方说，双簧管演奏者今晚拥有上帝赐予的簧片，如果他们想在高音上停留更长时间，或者大都会歌剧院的女高音，你只需说：“是的，让我们这样做吧。

This is one of these magical moments of humanity, and we are lucky to be a part of it.”

这是人类的神奇时刻之一，我们很幸运能成为其中的一部分。”

One of the challenges for a conductor is, as quickly as possible with a group you don’t know, to try and actually memorize when everybody looks up because I always say, this is like the paper boy or the paper girl.

指挥面临的挑战之一是，与一群你不认识的人一起，尽快尝试并在每个人都抬起头时真正记住，因为我总是说，这就像报童或报童。

If you’re on your route, and you have your papers in your bicycle satchel, and you throw it at the window, and the window is closed, you’ll probably have to pay for the pane of glass.

如果你在路上，你把文件放在自行车背包里，然后你把它扔到窗户上，而窗户是关着的，你可能需要为玻璃窗付费。

Whereas if the window goes up, which is the equivalency of someone looking up to get information, that’s the moment where you can send the information through with your hands or your face or your gestures, that you’re saying, “Maybe try it this way.” They pick that information up and then use it.

而如果窗口升起，相当于有人抬头获取信息，那就是你可以用手、脸或手势发送信息的时刻，你会说，“也许可以尝试这种方式。”他们收集这些信息然后使用它。

But the thing that no one will tell you, and that the players themselves don’t often realize, is that instinctively, and I think subconsciously, almost every player looks up after they’ve finished playing something.

但没有人会告诉你，而且玩家自己也常常没有意识到的一件事是，本能地，我认为潜意识里，几乎每个玩家在玩完某件事后都会抬头看。

I think it’s to just check in to see, “Am I in the right place?”

我认为只是检查一下，“我在正确的地方吗？”

That is a personal moment, where the orchestra is thinking about what’s coming.

这是一个个人的时刻，乐团正在思考即将发生的事情。

They’re not thinking about what’s behind because you’re constantly in the present and the future, but that’s your moment to send a message to somebody which can be, “Oh wow, that was incredible.” That sense of “Maestro came to my house” is really one of the things that I think helps build this kind of communication and trust between the players.

他们不会考虑背后发生的事情，因为你一直处于现在和未来，但那是你向某人发送信息的时刻，这可能是，“哦，哇，那太不可思议了。”我认为这种“大师来到我家”的感觉确实有助于在球员之间建立这种沟通和信任。

We recently did a concert, one of the recreations of one of Pierre’s Rug Concerts.

我们最近举办了一场音乐会，是皮埃尔地毯音乐会的重现之一。

There were a couple of notes that people played in the Webern symphony, which is very hard and very austere.

人们在韦伯恩交响曲中演奏了几个音符，非常困难且非常严肃。

You play one note, and then you have four bars where you can chastise yourself because that note didn’t come out just as perfectly as you wanted it to.

你弹奏一个音符，然后有四个小节，你可以在其中惩罚自己，因为该音符没有像你想要的那样完美。

Those are moments where the communication with the conductor, I think, is just essential because that’s what keeps the whole thing alive and full of meaning.

我认为，在这些时刻，与指挥的沟通是至关重要的，因为这就是让整个事情保持活力和充满意义的原因。

Janos would often say to people, “Imagine the moon view that there’s some extraterrestrial who’s come to observe the Earth and thinks that a safe distance to do this is from the moon because you don’t want to get too close.

杰诺斯经常对人们说：“想象一下月球视图，有一些外星人来观察地球，并认为这样做的安全距离是远离月球，因为你不想离得太近。

You don’t know how these people are going to behave.

你不知道这些人会如何表现。

He sets up a telescope, and the telescope is trained, purely by chance, on an orchestra room where there are all of these people looking like they’re trying to saw through something with a bow, and people who are going red in the face with these yellow instruments that they’re playing.

他架起了一架望远镜，而望远镜完全是偶然地在一个管弦乐队的房间里进行训练的，那里所有的人看起来都在试图用弓看穿什么东西，还有那些演奏着这些黄色乐器的人脸都红了。

There’s this one person who’s just holding a little stick and waving their arms like crazy.

有一个人只是拿着一根小棍子，疯狂地挥舞着手臂。

All of a sudden, the moon view makes you realize that being the one person not making sound in the room is a little ridiculous.

突然间，月光让你意识到，一个人在房间里不发出声音是有点可笑。

I think that’s something that sometimes, not taking ourselves too seriously is something that is hard for some musicians.

我认为有时候，对一些音乐家来说，不认真对待自己是一件很难的事情。

So, your job is to figure out how to harness all of the collective artistry that’s right in front of you and manage to get it to move in the same direction.

因此，你的工作就是弄清楚如何利用你面前的所有集体艺术，并设法让它朝着同一个方向发展。

Yes, sometimes there are decisions that you need to take, like any manager, and it may be as simple as a short-term decision: “Tomorrow morning, let’s rehearse this and start with this, and then we’ll go to this other piece after the break.” Or it may be a long-term decision such as, “What are we going to play in the coming seasons that helps develop the orchestra?”

是的，有时你需要做出一些决定，就像任何经理一样，这可能就像一个短期决定一样简单：“明天早上，让我们排练一下，然后从这个开始，然后我们在休息后再进行另一部分。”或者这可能是一个长期的决定，例如“我们在接下来的乐季要演奏什么来帮助乐团发展？”

Or it may be a decision that impacts the orchestra for 25, 30, 40 years that you won’t be involved with anymore, as when you give tenure to a particular player in the orchestra.

或者，这可能是一个影响乐团 25 年、30 年、40 年的决定，而你将不再参与其中，就像你授予乐团中某个特定演奏家的终身职位一样。

But all of these things and the efficacy of them is based on your ability to really deeply listen to what is going on and listen to the different points of view.

但所有这些事情及其功效都取决于您真正深入倾听正在发生的事情并听取不同观点的能力。

Then with time, you gain a greater understanding of what’s going on.

然后随着时间的推移，你会对正在发生的事情有更深入的了解。

This is why the work with the Ensemble Intercontemporain for nine years, for me, was absolutely formative because there are two things.

这就是为什么与 Ensemble Intercontemporain 的九年工作对我来说绝对具有影响力，因为有两件事。

One is, when Boulez founded this group, he made it so that each one of the players was considered a soloist.

一是，当布列兹创立这个乐队时，他让每一位演奏者都被视为独奏家。

It was an ensemble of 31 soloists, and their contract was modeled on the soloist’s contract in an orchestra, which is usually closer to two-thirds of the time so that they’re not playing every single piece every single week because they need the time to keep themselves, like a great sports player, a tennis player, or a gymnast, in top form.

这是一个由 31 名独奏者组成的乐团，他们的合同是仿照管弦乐队独奏者合同的，通常接近三分之二的时间，这样他们就不会每周演奏每一首曲子，因为他们需要时间让自己保持最佳状态，就像伟大的体育运动员、网球运动员或体操运动员一样。

There’s lots of practice that’s going on on the side.

另外还有很多练习。

That’s one aspect of it.

这是它的一方面。

Then the other aspect was that when I would come into a rehearsal, and you have composers pushing the envelope, there would be times when I would think, “You can’t possibly play this on the instrument.” They would say, “Oh yes, you can if you do this this way.” They would show me a fingering, or they would show me a combination of the position on the string instrument or a type of circular breathing on the woodwinds in such a way that I felt I was getting a master class in every single instrument.

另一方面是，当我进行排练时，当作曲家挑战极限时，有时我会想，“你不可能在乐器上演奏这个。”他们会说：“哦，是的，如果你这样做的话，就可以。”他们会向我展示指法，或者向我展示弦乐器上的位置组合或木管乐器上的循环呼吸方式，让我感觉自己在每种乐器上都上了大师课。

What’s been fascinating is to be able to — and this is the heart of music in itself as a tradition where you give on the things that you’ve gotten from those before you — I would get to orchestras, and the percussion player would say, “No, I don’t think you can do this.” I would say, “Try it this way,” and they, “Oh, yes.” Because they haven’t necessarily come across something like that.

令人着迷的是能够 ——这就是音乐本身作为一种传统的核心，你可以将你从前人那里得到的东西奉献给你 —— 我会去管弦乐队，打击乐手会说，“不，我不认为你能做到这一点。”我会说，“试试这个方法，”他们说，“哦，是的。”因为他们不一定遇到过这样的事情。

So, most of my knowledge I owe to the members of the Ensemble Intercontemporain.

所以，我的大部分知识都归功于当代乐团的成员。

On achieving clarity of sound

关于实现声音清晰度

As an aside, I must say that one of the things Pierre often said in the most complex situations would be to preface it with, “It’s very simple.” It became a joke at the Ensemble.

顺便说一句，我必须说，皮埃尔在最复杂的情​​况下经常说的一件事就是以“这非常简单”作为序言。这在乐团里成了一个笑话。

“Pierre, how do I do 13 in the time of 17?” He would say, “Oh, it’s very simple.” That was the standard go-to line.

“皮埃尔，我怎样才能在 17 的时间内完成 13？”他会说：“哦，这很简单。”这是标准的路线。

He said, “It’s very simple.

他说：“这很简单。

You make sure that you have very clearly what you want to hear in your head, and then, even without realizing it, you will instinctively do what is necessary to make sure that you hear it.” And he’s absolutely right.

你要确保你的脑子里非常清楚你想听到什么，然后，即使你没有意识到，你也会本能地采取必要的行动来确保你听到它。”他是完全正确的。

So, for me, having worked with composers and struggling with writing music myself, I think very long about how I’m going to put something down on the page.

所以，对我来说，在与作曲家合作并自己努力创作音乐之后，我思考了很长时间我将如何在页面上写下一些东西。

This precise instrument, that detail.

这个精密的仪器，那个细节。

John Adams used to say that you have just reams of details in a score.

约翰·亚当斯曾经说过，乐谱中只有大量的细节。

As an interpreter of someone else’s music, I try to take all of that, with as much precision and good faith as possible, that they didn’t just do it willfully.

作为别人音乐的诠释者，我试图以尽可能精确和善意的方式接受所有这些，他们并不是故意这样做的。

Therefore, I think if they want to hear something, they have put it in there in the score.

因此，我认为如果他们想听一些东西，他们就会把它放在乐谱中。

It seems inconceivable to me that we wouldn’t try and make sure that it’s heard, even if it would seem, “Ah, well, the bassoons have the trombones blaring right behind them.

对我来说，我们不尝试确保人们听到它似乎是不可思议的，即使看起来，“啊，好吧，巴松管的后面有长号。

Therefore, we won’t hear the bassoons.”

因此，我们不会听到巴松管的声音。”

No, if there are moments when Janáček just leaves out the bassoons, great.

不，如果雅纳切克有时不演奏巴松管，那就太好了。

But if the composer has put the bassoons in there, if it’s Berlioz, and he’s got his four bassoons and his trombones, and they’re all playing fortissimo, then you have to figure out what is necessary to make sure that the bassoons don’t just hang up their instrument and go home when it gets to that passage.

但如果作曲家把巴松管放在那里，如果是柏辽兹，他有四个巴松管和长号，而且他们都在演奏最强音，那么你必须弄清楚需要做什么来确保巴松管不会在到达该段落时挂起乐器并回家。

It’s true that without doing this consciously, you immediately bring the trombones down or you bring the bassoons up or you set the orchestra up differently.

确实，如果没有有意识地这样做，你会立即将长号拉低，或者将巴松管拉高，或者以不同的方式设置管弦乐队。

There are all sorts of ways that you can accomplish what’s necessary, but I think the fundamental idea is, every person in the orchestra, like every person in an ensemble of soloists, is equally important, and their viewpoints are equally valid.

有各种各样的方法可以完成必要的任务，但我认为基本的想法是，乐团中的每个人，就像独奏家中的每个人一样，同样重要，他们的观点同样有效。

Your job is to figure out how to take all of that and synthesize it so that you have a unified whole that has as much clarity as possible.

你的工作是弄清楚如何获取所有这些并将其综合起来，以便你拥有一个尽可能清晰的统一整体。

On what conductors should read

指挥应该阅读哪些内容

A few years ago, I came across a book by Dr. Maryanne Wolf called Proust and the Squid.

几年前，我偶然看到玛丽安娜·沃尔夫博士写的一本书，名为《普鲁斯特与鱿鱼》。

In this book, she talks about the fact that the squid has a very simple nervous system, so it is possible to study all sorts of aspects of it.

在这本书中，她谈到了鱿鱼有一个非常简单的神经系统，因此可以研究它的各个方面。

This is the same reason that molecular biology uses things like C.

这与分子生物学使用 C 之类的东西的原因相同。

elegans, the nematodes, because you can figure out what’s happening if you can turn off this particular cell and see what that does to the animal.

线虫，因为如果你可以关闭这个特定的细胞并看看它对动物产生什么影响，你就可以弄清楚发生了什么。

It turns out, unlike Proust, who is the quintessential reader, there are people who have difficulty reading, and there are squid that cannot swim when they are born.

事实证明，与典型的读者普鲁斯特不同，有些人阅读有困难，有些乌贼出生时不会游泳。

A squid that cannot swim when it is born dies.

刚出生时不会游泳的乌贼会死掉。

The fascinating thing, when you study these particular squid who have this anomaly, is that they don’t use the normal neural pathway to the muscles.

令人着迷的是，当你研究这些具有这种异常现象的特殊鱿鱼时，你会发现它们不使用正常的肌肉神经通路。

They have to build one which is entirely unique.

他们必须打造一款完全独一无二的产品。

Her whole book then talks about people and situations in which the relatively recent experience of reading text for Homo sapiens is something that the majority of people do in a certain neurological way, but there are others for whom — for whatever reasons — those neural pathways are not open to them, so they need to build something different.

然后，她的整本书讨论了人和情况，其中智人最近阅读文本的经历是大多数人以某种神经学方式所做的事情，但对于其他人来说“无论出于何种原因”这些神经通路对他们不开放，因此他们需要建立一些不同的东西。

Part of my experience of reading plays and having this space was, going slowly through something in a play, I could put all the rest of the information in without having to think at all about expository writing or descriptive.

我阅读戏剧和拥有这个空间的部分经验是，慢慢地浏览戏剧中的某些内容，我可以将所有其余信息放入其中，而无需考虑说明性写作或描述性写作。

It’s a forest, and I would imagine the forest, and then I would have the things.

这是一片森林，我会想象森林，然后我就会拥有这些东西。

I grew to love reading and was passionate about it.

我渐渐喜欢上了读书，并对读书充满了热情。

My reading has been very wide ranging.

我的阅读范围非常广泛。

I’m a real hard-ass at Juilliard, and I make my students .

我在茱莉亚学院是一个真正的硬汉，我培养我的学生。

.

。

.

。

I assume that they’ve all read Charles Rosen’s The Classical Style.

我想他们都读过查尔斯·罗森的《古典风格》。

I assume that they have a favorite orchestration book.

我想他们有一本最喜欢的编曲书籍。

For the class, I make them read all of, I’m afraid, George Steiner’s After Babel —

在课堂上，我让他们阅读全部乔治·斯坦纳的《巴别塔之后》——

Then sometimes, we will talk about which books are the ones that formed you, and whether you’re reading history, or whether or not you’re reading literature of the time or literature of your own time.

然后有时候，我们会讨论哪些书塑造了你，你是否在读历史，或者你是否在读那个时代的文学或你自己时代的文学。

I think the broadest possible reading list and experiencing list — whether it’s theater: going to plays, going to movies, watching something on television — everything in your experience, if you are a musician, I think, translates into your art.

我认为尽可能广泛的阅读清单和体验清单 —— 无论是戏剧：去看戏、看电影、看电视 —— 我认为，如果你是一名音乐家，你经历的一切都会转化为你的艺术。

That means that you can come to it in many different ways.

这意味着您可以通过多种不同的方式实现这一目标。

That has phenomenal rewards, but it is dealing with what is seen as a very scarce resource, which is attention, and its concomitant aspect, time.

这会带来惊人的回报，但它正在处理被视为非常稀缺的资源，即注意力及其伴随的方面，即时间。

I think that one of the things that one needs to learn to do for young conductors is to, in a sense, slow down and learn about yourself.

我认为年轻指挥家需要学会做的一件事就是，从某种意义上来说，放慢脚步，了解自己。

That can be done through books, and much of it is done through contemplation of the score, whatever that score might be, whether it’s written by a man in Leipzig 300 years ago, or whether it’s something that was written yesterday by a person who is trying to wean themselves off of social media, as you are.

这可以通过书本来完成，其中大部分是通过对乐谱的思考来完成的，无论乐谱是什么，无论它是 300 年前莱比锡的一个人写的，还是昨天由一个像你一样试图戒掉社交媒体的人写的。

There are so many different things, but time is limited.

有很多不同的事情，但时间有限。

One of the things that I enjoy is not telling a Lyft, Uber, or taxi driver to turn off their music, but to use it as a kind of John Cagian moment of —

我喜欢的事情之一不是告诉 Lyft、Uber 或出租车司机关掉音乐，而是将其用作约翰·卡吉安 (John Cagian) 的时刻：

You have this sense of the curious thing that music can do, which is to collapse time and collapse space and collapse distance between souls.

你会感觉到音乐可以做一件奇怪的事情，那就是瓦解时间、瓦解空间、瓦解灵魂之间的距离。

That part, whether it’s in popular music or whether it’s in what the Germans like to call serious music, which is so pejorative to the light music, it’s crazy, but all of these things, the sheer .

这部分，无论是在流行音乐中，还是在德国人喜欢的所谓严肃音乐中，严肃音乐对轻音乐都是如此贬义，这很疯狂，但所有这些东西，纯粹是。

.

。

.

。

And this is one of the things — I can’t walk around with any kind of pod in my ear.

这是其中一件事 — 我不能带着任何一种耳塞到处走动。

If I listen to something, I listen to something because when I’m walking around, the street sounds — whether those are cars, whether they’re annoying or whether they’re beautiful, like a sudden bird song in a lull of traffic — all of these things are things I want to experience.

如果我听一些东西，我会听一些东西，因为当我走来走去时，街道的声音 —— 无论是汽车，无论它们是否烦人，还是美丽，就像交通平静时突然响起的鸟鸣声 —— 所有这些都是我想要体验的东西。

I don’t want to shut myself off from that because the randomness that this can generate, can have a butterfly effect in us and suddenly take us to a different place.

我不想让自己与此隔绝，因为这会产生随机性，会对我们产生蝴蝶效应，突然把我们带到一个不同的地方。

All of a sudden, the squeak of two brakes — suddenly you find your brain has shuffled the jukebox, and you have a piece of music you haven’t thought of in years because that particular interval just fired a couple of neurons that got some extra protein with breakfast.

突然间，两声刹车的吱吱声——突然你发现你的大脑已经开始播放自动点唱机，你会听到一首你多年来从未想过的音乐，因为那个特定的时间间隔刚刚激发了几个神经元，这些神经元在早餐时获得了一些额外的蛋白质。

In Sydney, there is a sense of adventure.

在悉尼，有一种冒险的感觉。

There’s also a sense of pride in their institutions that you don’t necessarily find in every place.

人们对他们的机构也有一种自豪感，但这种自豪感并非在每个地方都能找到。

There’s enough newness about the country that the idea that it’s the Sydney Symphony Orchestra is already a source of pride before you’ve even started to play.

这个国家有足够的新鲜感，在你开始演奏之前，“悉尼交响乐团”的想法就已经让你感到自豪了。

There’s that, but I think the more important point is that an audience anywhere is a collection of individuals.

就是这样，但我认为更重要的一点是，任何地方的观众都是个体的集合。

We play a concert for one individual, but for economic reasons, we just get 2,000 individuals together at the same time because it’s cost effective, but each person brings their own sense of what’s there and their experience with them.

我们为一个人举办一场音乐会，但出于经济原因，我们只是同时让 2,000 个人聚集在一起，因为这样具有成本效益，但每个人都有自己对现场的感觉和体验。

This goes back to what you were saying about people hearing contemporary classical music and going, “Ick.”

这可以追溯到你所说的人们听到当代古典音乐后会说“恶心”。

That has to do with, have they played an instrument?

这与他们演奏乐器有关吗？

When they’ve played an instrument, are they the kind of person who likes to make funny sounds on the instrument?

当他们演奏乐器时，他们是那种喜欢用乐器发出有趣声音的人吗？

Or do they want to stick with only what’s in the Tune A Day book?

或者他们只想坚持只遵循《每日调整》书中的内容？

If they’re the person who liked to honk and make strange sounds to annoy their siblings, they’re probably going to be closer to contemporary music, and they bring that with them into the concert hall.

如果他们是喜欢按喇叭并发出奇怪的声音来惹恼兄弟姐妹的人，他们可能会更接近当代音乐，并将其带入音乐厅。

You have people who are there to celebrate a fantastic, “I just met this person and I invited them to the concert and they said, yes.

有人在那里庆祝一个美妙的时刻，“我刚刚遇到这个人，我邀请他们参加音乐会，他们说，是的。

Oh, this is great.

哦，这太棒了。

Can I put my arm around them during the Tchaikovsky?” You have people who come in, and they are still in a situation of bereavement.

在柴可夫斯基演奏期间我可以用手臂搂住他们吗？”有些人进来了，但他们仍然处于丧亲之痛的境地。

You have people who come in, and they have looked at something in the news that has disturbed them greatly.

有些人进来了，他们在新闻中看到了一些让他们非常不安的东西。

All of these people come in, all of them as individuals, and our job, I think, is to create the most open experience possible so that each one of these people feels they can come into the structure of the music in a way that they can then find themselves and have the incredible experience that it can bring forth, talk to them.

所有这些人都进来了，他们都是作为个体，我认为我们的工作是创造尽可能开放的体验，这样每个人都觉得他们可以以一种方式进入音乐的结构，然后他们可以找到自己，并拥有它可以带来的令人难以置信的体验，与他们交谈。

The thing with the classical music is, we had all sorts of music growing up.

古典音乐的问题是，我们成长过程中接触过各种各样的音乐。

I was from probably what would be considered a middlebrow household.

我可能来自一个被认为是中产阶级的家庭。

My dad played Dixieland jazz on his clarinet — badly, as he would say.

我父亲用单簧管演奏迪克西兰爵士乐——正如他所说，演奏得很糟糕。

He also played guitar and banjo.

他还弹吉他和班卓琴。

My mother sang and played piano because every young lady should learn to play piano.

我妈妈唱歌、弹钢琴，因为每个年轻女士都应该学习弹钢琴。

It was that kind of an upbringing.

就是这样的成长经历。

There was everything, from church hymns to music that was known through musicals or from jazz, and then music appreciation records, which we had.

从教堂赞美诗到音乐剧或爵士乐中的音乐，再到我们拥有的音乐欣赏唱片，应有尽有。

There were all sorts of different things, and I can’t actually say when I became besotted with it.

有各种各样的事情，我实际上说不上来是什么时候我开始着迷的。

I was fortunate to grow up in the Santa Monica Unified School District where they had a wonderful music program.

我很幸运在圣莫尼卡联合学区长大，那里有很棒的音乐课程。

They still do, but this was before Proposition 13 in California.

现在他们仍然这样做，但那是在加州第 13 号提案出台之前。

It was, as many other cultural things were, beautifully funded.

与许多其他文化事物一样，它的资金雄厚。

I started singing in the choir at the age of six and then started instrumental music in school at the age of, let’s see, nine, and then just went on from there.

我六岁开始在合唱团唱歌，九岁开始在学校学习器乐，然后就从那里开始。

I can’t really say.

我真的不能说。

I do have an early memory.

我确实有很早的记忆。

We bought a Panasonic tape machine, reel to reel, and we only had one tape.

我们买了一台松下磁带机，卷盘式的，但我们只有一盘磁带。

That tape, I now realize — at the time I didn’t pay any attention — was William Steinberg and the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra doing Bolero and Rapsodie espagnole.

我现在意识到，那盘磁带——当时我没有注意到——是威廉·斯坦伯格和匹兹堡交响乐团演奏的《波莱罗舞曲》和《西班牙狂想曲》。

I don’t think the Rapsodie espagnole of Ravel made any impression, but Bolero — I do remember actually listening to it and being able to hear that that’s the same melody now, but with a different color.

我不认为拉威尔的西班牙狂想曲给人留下任何印象，但波莱罗 —— 我确实记得实际听过它，现在能够听到那是相同的旋律，但颜色不同。

I must have been seven.

我那时应该七岁了。

I was just besotted with music from the very early start.

我从一开始就对音乐着迷。

When the Second World War came along, and he had found refuge in the United States, he realized, “I need to revise a number of my works so that I can get the copyright.” Some of the works were made more practical, and some of the works were done entirely for financial reasons.

当第二次世界大战到来时，他在美国避难，他意识到，“我需要修改我的一些作品，这样我才能获得版权。”有些作品是为了更加实用，有些作品完全是出于经济原因而完成的。

There’s a revision of Persephone, his cantata for chorus and solos, vocal solos and orchestra, and he changed one note in the second bassoon part, but in Petrushka, he changed a lot.

珀尔塞福涅有一个修订版，他的合唱和独奏、声乐独奏和管弦乐队的清唱剧，他在第二巴松管部分改变了一个音符，但在彼得鲁什卡，他改变了很多。

One of the things that happened was that there’s a large piano part in the early part of the work, and then the piano never plays again.

发生的事情之一是，作品的前半部分有一个很大的钢琴部分，然后钢琴就再也没有演奏过。

This comes from him thinking, while he was working with Diaghilev, that he wanted to write a piano concerto, and so these sketches for the piano concerto came in.

这来自于他在与佳吉列夫合作时的想法，他想写一部钢琴协奏曲，所以这些钢琴协奏曲的草图就出现了。

The woodwind section is reduced.

木管乐器部分被减少。

The number of harps is reduced to one.

竖琴数量减少到一把。

There are a number of things that are done with tempos to make it easier to conduct.

有很多事情都是按节奏完成的，以使其更容易进行。

For example, one of the tempo relations, which I really like, is that the opening theme of “The Shrovetide Fair” has , and it has an eighth note pulse in the horns going .

例如，我非常喜欢的节奏关系之一是“忏悔节集市”的开场主题，并且它有一个八分音符脉冲在喇叭中进行。

He wants, at one point, to just up the tempo a little bit, and that means that he would like seven eighth notes in the time of these six, which means one, and two, and three, and one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, one, two, three, and that’s hard for conductors to do.

在某个时刻，他想把节奏稍微加快一点，这意味着他想要在这六个拍子里有七个八分音符，这意味着一、二、三、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、一、二、三，这对指挥来说很难做到。

In the ’47 version, he sanctions, which I think was probably because he would also like to conduct it, because you make money conducting, and so, he turned it into eighth note equals eighth note, and I find this is a very sad way of doing things.

在47年的版本中，他制裁了，我想这可能是因为他也想指挥，因为指挥可以赚钱，所以他把它变成了八分音符等于八分音符，我发现这是一种非常可悲的做事方式。

Boulez and I talked about this, and he said, ironically, it will turn out, when you are looking at a composer’s works, always trust the original.

布列兹和我谈到了这一点，他讽刺地说，事实证明，当你在看作曲家的作品时，永远相信原作。

He never did the ’47, or very rarely.

他从来没有参加过 47 年的比赛，或者说很少参加。

I’ve done it occasionally, and I always feel, “Oh, why did I agree to do this?” I go back to insisting on the 1911.

我偶尔也会这样做，但我总是觉得，“哦，我为什么同意这样做？”我又回到了坚持1911。

The colors are much better and the actual beauty of the orchestration — where it comes from in the Russian tradition with Rimsky-Korsakov — that’s all much clearer and much more evident in the way you hear it.

色彩要好得多，配器的真正美感——它来自俄罗斯传统的里姆斯基-科萨科夫——这一切在你听到的方式中都更加清晰和明显。

Of course, going back to Boulez, he revised his works all the time, and so, I find it wonderful that a composer said, “Oh no, trust the original,” and yet he would never say go back to the original of Le Visage nuptial.

当然，回到布列兹，他一直在修改自己的作品，所以，我觉得很美妙的是，一位作曲家说，“哦，不，相信原作”，但他永远不会说回到《Le Visage婚礼》的原作。

At the same time, I can understand this because there are times when you say, “Ah, I did put the metronome mark too fast.” Or “Actually, that trumpet part would work once on a month of Sundays, but not normally, so let me be more practical here.”

同时，我也能理解这一点，因为有时你会说，“啊，我确实把节拍器标记得太快了。”或者“实际上，那个小号部分会在每个月的星期日起作用一次，但通常不会，所以让我在这里更实际一些。”

Photo Credit: Chris Lee

照片来源：克里斯·李