David Brooks on Youth, Morality, and Loneliness (Ep. 42 - Live at Mason)

So I’d like to start with what I call the “Eleanor Rigby” question.

所以我想从我所说的“埃莉诺·里格比”问题开始。

“All the lonely people, where do they all come from?”

“所有孤独的人，他们都是从哪里来的？”

What’s the root cause behind the loneliness epidemic?

孤独流行背后的根本原因是什么？

Why can’t we just bring these people together, use the internet if need be, and make them all un-lonely?

为什么我们不能把这些人聚集在一起，在需要时使用互联网，让他们不再孤独？

What’s the actual underlying problem?

真正的根本问题是什么？

This is the most intimidating interview I’ve ever sat down for because (a) you know me, and (b) you actually read my stuff.

这是我坐下来接受的最令人生畏的采访，因为（a）你了解我，（b）你实际上读过我的东西。

Two things that are rare.

有两件事是罕见的。

I’m a cultural determinist.

我是一个文化决定论者。

So I tend to think the loneliness is primarily a cultural problem, that we went through a culture in the ’50s where we were the opposite of lonely.

所以我倾向于认为孤独主要是一个文化问题，我们在 50 年代经历了一种与孤独相反的文化。

We were in a culture where people had to solve big problems because they had a very group-oriented culture, what you might call the “We’re all in this together.” Big unions.

我们所处的文化中，人们必须解决重大问题，因为他们有一种非常以群体为导向的文化，你可以称之为“我们都在一起”。大工会。

Very tight neighborhoods.

非常紧张的街区。

Conformist organizations.

墨守成规的组织。

Deference to authority.

尊重权威。

And then people decided around about 1962 that wasn’t working.

然后人们在 1962 年左右决定这种方法行不通。

And so they created a culture that was very individualistic.

因此他们创造了一种非常个人主义的文化。

If you go back to the “Port Huron Statement,” if you go to Betty Friedan’s Feminine Mystique, people begin to value autonomy.

如果你回顾一下《休伦港声明》，如果你回顾一下贝蒂·弗里丹的《女性的奥秘》，人们就会开始重视自主权。

We need some lack .

我们需要一些缺乏。

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It’s too soul crushing, this conformity.

这种顺从太令人心碎了。

So in my view, we’ve had 40 or 50 years or more of individualism.

所以在我看来，我们的个人主义已经有 40 年、50 年或更长时间了。

And there’s been individualism of the left, which has been about social individualism and autonomy.

还有左派的个人主义，涉及社会个人主义和自治。

There’s been a right-wing version, which is more economic autonomy.

有一个右翼版本，即更多的经济自主权。

But it’s been autonomy all the way down.

但自始至终都是自治。

In my view, if you leave people naked and alone, they do what their evolutionary roots tell them to do, which is revert to tribe.

在我看来，如果你让人们赤身裸体、孤独一人，他们就会按照进化根源的指示去做，那就是回归部落。

And so they pick a bad form of community, which is tribalism.

因此他们选择了一种不好的社区形式，那就是部落主义。

But my explanation would be primarily cultural because there’s no reason people should do what’s bad for them, which is to be alone.

但我的解释主要是文化方面的，因为人们没有理由做对他们不利的事情，那就是孤独。

But that’s what’s happened.

但这就是发生的事情。

Some men are left lonelier because women are in fact independent.

有些男人变得更加孤独，因为女人实际上是独立的。

And the other side of the coin is independence of women.

硬币的另一面是女性的独立。

If you think of women as often a kind of glue holding communities together, so we’ve traded off community for liberation of many women.

如果你认为女性通常是将社区凝聚在一起的粘合剂，那么我们就牺牲了社区来换取许多女性的解放。

And maybe (a) there’s no going back, and (b) it’s actually a good thing — or no?

也许（a）没有回头路，（b）这实际上是一件好事  -  或者不是？

I would say the 1960s were a period of chopping up the old culture.

我想说 20 世纪 60 年代是一个打破旧文化的时期。

Then you shift over because humans are very ingenious.

然后你就转移过来，因为人类非常聪明。

And you ratchet upwards.

然后你就会向上爬。

But then it stops.

但随后它就停止了。

So I’d say, my explanation was, we had to get rid of that 1950s culture because it really — it tolerated a lot of racism, a lot of sexism, a lot of anti-Semitism.

所以我想说，我的解释是，我们必须摆脱 20 世纪 50 年代的文化，因为它确实容忍了很多种族主义、性别歧视和反犹太主义。

People were emotionally cold with one another.

人们感情上彼此冷淡。

The food was really boring.

食物真的很无聊。

So we had to chop that up.

所以我们必须把它砍掉。

Then we had to move over to an individualistic culture.

然后我们必须转向个人主义文化。

We couldn’t have had feminism and civil rights of women.

我们不可能有女权主义和妇女的公民权利。

I doubt we could have had Silicon Valley without that rebel, individualistic, autonomy ethos.

我怀疑，如果没有那种反叛、个人主义、自治的精神，我们不可能拥有硅谷。

But every truth becomes false when you take it to its extreme.

但当你把真理推向极端时，一切真理都会变得错误。

And so I’ve said, we’ve sort of run out the string on that one.

所以我说过，我们已经用完了那个绳子。

I would say that one of the things that’s noticeable about affluent people — and this has happened to me — is, as soon as people make money, they seem to purchase loneliness.

我想说的是，富人身上值得注意的一件事————这也发生在我身上————人们一旦赚钱，他们似乎就购买了孤独。

I grew up in the city, super crowded.

我在城市长大，那里超级拥挤。

When I had a book sitting over there, I had a best seller, which allowed me to buy a house.

当我有一本书放在那里时，我有一本畅销书，这让我可以买房子。

And I bought it out in Bethesda with a big yard because I thought that was cool.

我在贝塞斯达买下了它，有一个大院子，因为我觉得那很酷。

I remember the moment I put the garage door thing on the visor of my car.

我记得我把车库门的东西放在汽车遮阳板上的那一刻。

That was one of the biggest moments of my life.

那是我一生中最重要的时刻之一。

I would say that one of the things that’s noticeable about affluent people — and this has happened to me — is, as soon as people make money, they seem to purchase loneliness.

我想说的是，富人身上值得注意的一件事————这也发生在我身上————人们一旦赚钱，他们似乎就购买了孤独。

Why isn’t it that demonstrated preference is what we should take seriously when it comes to assessing how much individualism we have?

在评估我们有多少个人主义时，为什么我们不应该认真对待表现出来的偏好呢？

Because you can join groups relatively easily still, right?

因为你仍然可以相对容易地加入团体，对吗？

Steven Pinker wrote this book on how we’re all doing better.

史蒂文·平克（Steven Pinker）写了这本书，讲述我们如何做得更好。

His data was primarily about individuals.

他的数据主要是关于个人的。

If you try to collect data on the quality of relationships, it’s really hard to find data that’s anything but bad.

如果你尝试收集有关人际关系质量的数据，你会发现很难找到不是不好的数据。

And so people, societies fall into patterns that are pretty self-destructive.

因此，人们、社会陷入了相当自我毁灭的模式。

And I’d say we’ve fallen into the pattern.

我想说我们已经陷入了这种模式。

I think we’re going to fix it.

我想我们会解决这个问题。

But one thing about the Amish, I do think you have to control for their Germanic temperament.

但关于阿米什人的一件事，我确实认为你必须控制他们的日耳曼气质。

My favorite Westerns are almost all John Ford Westerns.

我最喜欢的西部片几乎都是约翰·福特的西部片。

The greatest movie of all the time was The Searchers, by the way, starring John Wayne.

顺便说一句，有史以来最伟大的电影是由约翰·韦恩主演的《搜索者》。

But there’s another movie, made with Henry Fonda, called My Darling Clementine, which was the most accurate Western because it’s about people forming a community in the West.

但还有另一部与亨利·方达合作的电影，名为《我亲爱的克莱门汀》，这是最准确的西部片，因为它讲述的是人们在西方形成一个社区的故事。

It wasn’t a single guy having a gun shoot-out.

这不是一个人在枪战。

The teacher comes to town.

老师进城了。

The Shakespearean actor comes to town.

莎士比亚演员来到城里。

They put up a schoolhouse.

他们建起了校舍。

It’s a movie about community building.

这是一部关于社区建设的电影。

And that’s actually how the West was founded.

这实际上就是西方的建立方式。

Japan would be another example, some parts of northern Europe.

日本是另一个例子，北欧的一些地区。

People are marrying late.

人们结婚晚了。

Low birth rates.

出生率低。

So almost by definition, they’re cut off from community of family compared to how things were 30, 40 years ago.

因此，几乎按照定义，与 30、40 年前相比，他们与家庭社区隔绝了。

But they seem to systematically make these choices, be happy with them.

但他们似乎系统地做出这些选择，并对此感到满意。

Would Italian women be better off with three kids in an apartment in Rome?

如果意大利女性带着三个孩子住在罗马的公寓里会过得更好吗？

I will say, I just got back.

我会说，我刚回来。

This is where you separate your own lived experience from the data because my ideology, my prior is that a low fertility, they should definitely fix that problem.

这是你将自己的生活经历与数据分开的地方，因为我的意识形态，我的先验是低生育率，他们绝对应该解决这个问题。

But I was just out in Tuscany on a restaurant over a hillside, and we were surrounded by Italian families.

但我当时正在托斯卡纳山坡上的一家餐馆里，周围都是意大利家庭。

And we were probably three-and-a-half hours into the meal before they served the entree.

我们大概吃了三个半小时后他们才上主菜。

I guess it was just expected you would sit there five or six hours because it’s Sunday afternoon.

我猜你会在那里坐五六个小时，因为那是周日下午。

What are you going to do?

你会怎样做？

But I don’t know.

但我不知道。

I can’t speak for Italian families.

我不能代表意大利家庭说话。

And I wouldn’t want to translate anything into happiness.

我不想将任何事情转化为幸福。

I’m in arguments with people who do happiness research.

我正在与从事幸福研究的人争论。

I find the whole field doesn’t live up to — if you look at novelistic or musical expressions of happiness — Tolstoy wrote a story called Family Happiness.

我发现整个领域并没有达到 —— 如果你看看小说或音乐对幸福的表达 —— 托尔斯泰写了一个故事叫《家庭幸福》。

“Ode to Joy.” The literary and musical capturing of what joy feels like is so much richer and more nuanced than anything in the happiness data, that I find the happiness data very unsatisfying.

“欢乐颂”。文学和音乐对快乐感受的捕捉比幸福数据中的任何内容都更加丰富和细致，我发现幸福数据非常不满意。

All the happiness researchers say, “No, no, it’s really thick.” But to me, this is a failure, just a failure of social science.

所有的幸福研究人员都说：“不，不，它真的很厚。”但对我来说，这是一个失败，只是社会科学的失败。

Anything you can reduce to data that’s as humanistic as joy and happiness .

任何可以简化为像快乐和幸福一样人文的数据。

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it seems to me there are so many different kinds of joy and happiness that are not captured in the data.

在我看来，有很多不同种类的快乐和幸福没有被数据捕获。

I now have taken to clipping out.

我现在已经开始剪掉了。

When I see a description of joy, I clip it out.

当我看到关于快乐的描述时，我会把它剪掉。

They often involve rhythmic movement with groups of people marching or dancing.

它们通常涉及一群人行进或跳舞的有节奏的运动。

But they’re often a sense of what was formerly inside yourself merging with something outside yourself, and a sense that people get caught up in the sense of spiritual transcendence, whether you’re marching across a bridge in Selma or Emerson being the universal eye when he was out in the forest.

但它们通常是一种感觉，即以前的内在与外在的东西融合在一起，以及人们陷入精神超越的感觉，无论你是在塞尔玛的一座桥上行进，还是艾默生在森林里时成为普遍的眼睛。

It’s always the loss of sense of where the self ends that seems to produce joy.

似乎只有失去自我终结感才会产生快乐。

His conservatism was very different.

他的保守主义非常不同。

It’s about dynamism, energy, transformational change.

这是关于活力、能量、变革。

And so a European self-conservatism doesn’t work here.

因此，欧洲的自我保守主义在这里不起作用。

You have to have that dynamic, recreated, self-transformational element.

你必须拥有那种动态的、重新创造的、自我转变的元素。

And I would say we’re definitely at a moment of .

我想说，我们现在肯定正处于……的时刻。

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Certainly it’s impossible to argue we’re not at a need of some sort of political transformation because we’re completely dysfunctional.

当然，不可能说我们不需要某种政治转型，因为我们完全功能失调。

But Whigs believe in limited but energetic government to enhance social mobility.

但辉格党相信有限但充满活力的政府可以增强社会流动性。

They had national banks.

他们有国家银行。

They had infrastructure plans.

他们有基础设施计划。

They believed in credit markets, and it was all an effort to create dynamic economies where poor boys and girls could rise and succeed.

他们相信信贷市场，这一切都是为了创造充满活力的经济，让贫困的男孩和女孩能够崛起并取得成功。

And so I would like to see a rediscovery of the Whig Party.

因此，我希望看到辉格党被重新发现。

Now, there are six Whigs in America right now.

现在，美国现在有六个辉格党。

And on the basic stability of bourgeois virtues, I think the conservatives are actually winning that argument.

在资产阶级美德的基本稳定性方面，我认为保守派实际上赢得了这场争论。

My friend Charles Murray put it that a lot of people on the left think left, but they definitely live right.

我的朋友查尔斯·默里（Charles Murray）说，很多左派人士认为左派，但他们的生活绝对是右派。

And so the acceptance of bourgeois virtues, of stable families and pretty narrow, self-disciplined lifestyles — that seems to me almost without argument these days.

因此，接受资产阶级美德、稳定的家庭和相当狭隘、自律的生活方式——在我看来，这些天几乎没有争议。

On religion and secularization

论宗教与世俗化

And even though we’re seeing religious polarization now, there’s a lot of people getting much more religious.

尽管我们现在看到宗教两极分化，但很多人变得更加虔诚。

If you walk through northern Central Park on a Saturday afternoon, you just see hundreds of Modern Orthodox kids who are trying to meet each other in the park there.

如果您在周六下午穿过中央公园北部，您会看到数百名现代东正教孩子试图在公园里见面。

That’s sort of their meat market on the Great Lawn.

这就是他们在大草坪上的肉类市场。

So in Judaism, the Orthodox are surging.

所以在犹太教中，东正教正在风起云涌。

Then among Christians, they’re losing a lot of members because evangelicalism has disgraced itself with Trump.

然后在基督徒中，他们正在失去很多成员，因为福音派因特朗普而蒙羞。

But on the other hand, if you go to New York, to the hip areas of New York, and you hang around 20-somethings, they’re going to churches.

但另一方面，如果你去纽约，去纽约的时尚地区，和 20 多岁的人在一起，他们就会去教堂。

There’s a church called Redeemer, which has a bunch of plants around New York.

纽约有一座名叫救赎主的教堂，里面有很多植物。

There’s one called Trinity Grace.

有一个叫做三位一体恩典。

There’s one called C3.

有一种叫C3。

You go into these churches, and it feels like you’re going into the hippest nightclub on Earth, and they’re surging with enthusiasm.

你走进这些教堂，感觉就像走进了地球上最时髦的夜总会，里面热情高涨。

I don’t know what the data show, but just my observation of both these different communities — orthodoxy in Christian and Jewish circles — is that, especially among the vanguard, the cultural vanguard, there’s a spiritual resurgence.

我不知道数据表明了什么，但根据我对这两个不同社区——“基督教和犹太教圈子中的正统观念”——的观察，特别是在先锋、文化先锋中，出现了精神复兴。

I teach at Yale, and 15 years ago, if you were religious it was like having acne.

我在耶鲁大学任教，15 年前，如果你有宗教信仰，那就像长粉刺一样。

It was sort of uncool.

这有点不酷。

Then it went neutral, and now it’s sort of a plus.

然后它变得中性，现在它是一种优势。

It’s seen of a sign of your, some spiritual depth, even among those who are pretty secular themselves.

即使在那些本身很世俗的人中，它也是你精神深度的标志。

So do you think we’re the last holdout, in a sense, amongst wealthy nations?

那么，从某种意义上说，您认为我们是富裕国家中最后坚持不懈的人吗？

Or do you think we’re eventually going to follow them?

或者你认为我们最终会追随他们吗？

Or you don’t think they have secularized?

或者你认为他们还没有世俗化？

My observation is that people — over the centuries, we get secular.

我的观察是，人们 ——几个世纪以来，我们变得世俗。

We were super secular in 1913.

1913 年我们非常世俗。

But the human being is such that there’s a spiritual hunger there that seeks outlets.

但人类就是这样，有一种精神饥饿需要寻求出口。

And when the church does really bad answering that outlets, which most churches have done over the last 50 years, people drift away.

当教会对这些渠道的回应非常糟糕时（过去 50 年来大多数教会都这样做），人们就会渐渐离开。

But then somebody invents something new, and the drive for transcendent experience leads people back.

但后来有人发明了新东西，对超验体验的驱动力又把人们带回来。

His argument is that contracts are what we do for our individual benefit.

他的论点是，合同是我们为了个人利益而做的事情。

A contract is about interest.

合同是关于利息的。

But a covenant is when we make a promise to each other that transforms our identity.

但契约是指我们彼此做出改变我们身份的承诺。

And when we make a covenant, one with another, whether it’s a marriage covenant or to our nation, we serve the relationship more than we serve ourselves.

当我们彼此订立盟约时，无论是婚姻盟约还是我们的国家，我们为这种关系服务的不仅仅是为自己服务。

That’s why people are willing to die in a battlefield.

这就是为什么人们愿意死在战场上。

That’s why people are willing to risk their lives for their children.

这就是为什么人们愿意为孩子冒生命危险。

And it seems to me the more covenantal relationships we’re involved in, the more our life feels fulfilled.

在我看来，我们参与的圣约关系越多，我们的生活就越感到充实。

If one believes that Christ is, however you want to phrase the belief about the Trinity, but the Son of God or whatever the claim is, that’s almost by definition a radical, extreme claim.

如果一个人相信基督，无论你想如何表达对三位一体的信仰，但他是上帝的儿子或无论什么主张，从定义上来说，这几乎是一种激进、极端的主张。

Or that the Koran literally has come down to us from God.

或者说《古兰经》确实是从上帝那里降临到我们身上的。

That has to be an extreme claim to be interesting, right?

这一定是一个极端的说法才有趣，对吧？

So, is there such a thing as religious extremism as a negative?

那么，宗教极端主义到底有没有负面影响呢？

There’s a guy named Frederick Buechner, who’s a novelist and a theologian.

有一个叫 Frederick Buechner 的人，他是一位小说家和神学家。

He said, “If you wake up every morning and say, ‘I feel God right next to me,’ I really don’t recognize you.

他说：“如果你每天早上醒来都说‘我感觉上帝就在我身边’，我真的不认识你了。

But if you wake up one out of 10, and you feel some presence, and that presence comes with infinite laughter, that’s sort of how I feel it.”

但如果你十分之一醒来，你会感觉到某种存在，而这种存在伴随着无限的笑声，这就是我的感受。”

A friend of mine is a great poet named Christian Wiman, who is up at Yale.

我的一个朋友是耶鲁大学的一位伟大诗人，名叫克里斯蒂安·维曼。

He says he occasionally has moments of transcendence.

他说他偶尔也会有超越的时刻。

The way he describes it, it feels like poetic inspiration.

从他的描述来看，这感觉像是诗意的灵感。

Then he says, “The rest of the time I don’t feel much, but I try to stay faithful to those moments.”

然后他说，“其余的时间我没有什么感觉，但我会尽力忠实于那些时刻。”

There’s a great scene, I’m going to hopefully not butcher it entirely.

这是一个很棒的场景，我希望不会完全毁掉它。

He was in Prague with a girlfriend, and he was sitting there working on his poetry on the dining room table, and I think it was a falcon lands on the windowsill on the other side of the window.

他和女朋友在布拉格，他坐在餐桌上写诗，我想那是一只猎鹰落在窗户另一边的窗台上。

And he looked at the falcon.

他看着猎鹰。

The falcon didn’t notice him.

猎鹰没有注意到他。

So he called to his girlfriend, who was in the shower.

于是他打电话给正在洗澡的女友。

And she comes out, and she’s naked, dripping wet, and they stare at this falcon.

她出来了，她赤身裸体，浑身湿透，他们盯着这只猎鹰。

And the falcon turns and locks eyes with them.

猎鹰转过身来，与他们四目相对。

And they’re just sort of awed by the experience of this contact with nature.

他们只是对这种与自然接触的经历感到敬畏。

And she whispers to him, “Make a wish, make a wish.” And he said, “I just was in wishing for a moment that moment would last forever, and it went away.” And he describes that as just this moment when sort of reality spills outside its boundaries.

她低声对他说：“许个愿吧，许个愿吧。”他说：“我只是希望那一刻能够永远持续下去，但它就消失了。”他将这描述为某种现实溢出到其边界之外的时刻。

Most religious people I know have those moments, and they get a sense of grace or of God’s presence.

我认识的大多数宗教人士都有过这样的时刻，他们感受到恩典或上帝的存在。

But then it goes away.

但随后它就消失了。

So if you’re filled with doubt, and filled with doubt about your own interpretation, which is pluralism, then you’re not an extremist.

因此，如果你充满怀疑，并对自己的解释（即多元化）充满怀疑，那么你就不是极端主义者。

And to me that’s the only civilized way to be religious.

对我来说，这是保持宗教信仰的唯一文明方式。

If you have religion, and then you have your technocracy, how is it that you circumscribe the two and keep them apart?

如果你有宗教信仰，然后你有技术统治，你是如何限制两者并使它们分开的呢？

Because the people who are motived by religion think the supposedly extreme religious belief has a say about the areas where we want to be technocrats.

因为那些受宗教驱使的人认为，所谓的极端宗教信仰对我们想成为技术官僚的领域有发言权。

The central claim of religion is that, as a friend of mine, Jerry Root, puts it, is that reality is iconoclastic.

正如我的朋友杰里·鲁特（Jerry Root）所说，宗教的核心主张是现实是反传统的。

There’s something weird extra there.

那里还有一些奇怪的东西。

The way I would say it is that we all have souls.

我想说的是我们都有灵魂。

There’s all a piece of each of us, which has no weight and has no color and has no size and shape, but is in us, and it gives us infinite dignity, and it causes us to want to lead good lives.

我们每个人身上都有一块，没有重量，没有颜色，没有大小和形状，但它就在我们体内，它给了我们无限的尊严，它让我们想要过上美好的生活。

And that slavery is wrong because each person has a soul, and slavery is an obliteration of a soul.

奴隶制是错误的，因为每个人都有灵魂，而奴隶制就是灵魂的抹杀。

And that rape is wrong because rape is not just an assault on a bunch of physical molecules, but it’s an obliteration of another human being’s soul.

这种强奸是错误的，因为强奸不仅仅是对一堆物理分子的攻击，而且是对另一个人灵魂的抹杀。

If I don’t have that concept of soul, it’s very hard for me to do reporting.

如果我没有这个灵魂的概念，我很难做报道。

It’s very hard for me to understand how human beings are and why atrocity is wrong.

我很难理解人类是怎样的以及为什么暴行是错误的。

So I’d say that’s a very empirical .

所以我想说这是一个非常经验主义的。

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。

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I would find it very hard if I’m out covering a story — something that outrages me or something that delights me — if I didn’t see the people I was covering as essentially spiritually driven natures, I just think the whole story would fall to pieces.

如果我出去报道一个故事，我会发现很难——“一些让我愤怒的事情，或者一些让我高兴的事情”——“如果我没有看到我所报道的人本质上是精神驱动的本质，我只是认为整个故事就会支离破碎。

I find it, not empirically in a statistical way, but empirically helpful, as a way to see reality.

我发现它不是以统计方式实证，而是以实证方式有用，作为一种看待现实的方式。

I grew up in a Jewish household.

我在一个犹太家庭长大。

And when you grow up in a Jewish household and Jewish family, kept Kosher all those years, you read the Passover Seder, and you feel deeply how stories enter you and the story of Judaism.

当你在犹太家庭和犹太家庭长大，多年来一直保持犹太洁食，你读逾越节家宴时，你会深深地感受到故事是如何进入你和犹太教的故事的。

And I feel so Jewish.

我觉得自己很犹太人。

A lot of my friends are Jewish.

我的很多朋友都是犹太人。

My jokes are Jewish.

我的笑话是犹太人的。

My style is Jewish.

我的风格是犹太风格。

And so you feel that you’re just deeply and irrevocably embedded in that story.

所以你会觉得自己已经深深地、不可挽回地融入到了这个故事中。

At the same time, I went to the school that probably had the biggest influence on me was called Grace Church School, which if anybody goes to the Strand Bookstore in New York, it’s just really next door.

与此同时，我去了一所可能对我影响最大的学校，叫做格雷斯教堂学校，如果有人去纽约的斯特兰德书店，它就在隔壁。

A beautiful church on Broadway.

百老汇上一座美丽的教堂。

I was in the choir, and so I sat in chapel every day.

我是唱诗班的成员，所以我每天都坐在教堂里。

Then I went to an Episcopal camp for 15 years, and then I read Reinhold Niebuhr, and then I fell in love with Saint Augustine, and somehow you find that story settling into you.

然后我去了圣公会营15年，然后我读了莱因霍尔德·尼布尔，然后我爱上了圣奥古斯丁，不知怎的，你发现这个故事融入了你的内心。

And so I feel more Jewish and more attached to the Christian story than ever.

因此，我比以往任何时候都更加犹太化，更加热爱基督教故事。

Both.

两个都。

So that’s why I’m bisexual.

所以这就是我是双性恋的原因。

I think the Old Testament Torah is amazingly complex, and I would say it’s amazingly interesting, and there are just so many characters.

我认为旧约托拉非常复杂，我想说它非常有趣，而且有很多角色。

Frankly, the New Testament’s about one guy essentially, so it can’t compete.

坦率地说，《新约》本质上是关于一个人的，所以它无法与之竞争。

If we’re judging these on novelistic grounds, maybe that’s not the right criteria.

如果我们根据小说来判断这些，也许这不是正确的标准。

I think the Holy Spirit might have introduced a few more characters, liven up the plot.

我想圣灵可能会引入更多的角色，让情节更加生动。

I would say I get a little tired of Jewish theology when it gets pedantic.

我想说，当犹太神学变得迂腐时，我就有点厌倦了。

How many grains of rice can be in your bowl of whatever, and Passover .

无论你的碗里有多少粒米，还是逾越节。

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。

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。

But some of the Jewish writing from Martin Buber and Abraham Joshua Heschel and others on the Book of Exodus are amazing.

但马丁·布伯（Martin Buber）和亚伯拉罕·约书亚·赫舍尔（Abraham Joshua Heschel）以及其他人在《出埃及记》中的一些犹太著作令人惊叹。

The Christians do better on love.

基督徒在爱方面做得更好。

I’ve read Christian books about Ruth, Naomi, and Boaz which strike me as just a greater appreciation.

我读过关于路得、拿俄米和波阿斯的基督教书籍，让我更加欣赏这些书籍。

Maybe Jews got a little too cognitive.

也许犹太人有点太认知了。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

These are my off-the-top-of-my-head, extremely dangerous, self-destructive generalizations I’m making.

这些是我的即兴的、极其危险的、自我毁灭性的概括。

If anybody takes the last three and a half minutes too seriously, I ask for forgiveness.

如果有人对最后三分半钟太认真，我请求原谅。

They were actually way more sexualized than we think.

他们实际上比我们想象的更加性感。

We sort of narrow them down unfairly.

我们不公平地缩小了范围。

I blame Henry Miller or Arthur Miller.

我责怪亨利·米勒或阿瑟·米勒。

My bias, especially these days, is for infinite diversity and integration.

我的偏见，尤其是现在，是无限的多样性和整合。

In a weird way — and I really don’t understand this — all the fun in life comes from integration.

以一种奇怪的方式 —— 我真的不明白这一点 —— 生活中的所有乐趣都来自于整合。

That’s from integrating one group of people with a radically different group of people, and somehow it’s become uncool to be for integration.

这是因为将一群人与另一群完全不同的人融合在一起，不知何故，融合变得不酷了。

We’re all for our separate little communities and the purity of our cultures.

我们都是为了我们各自独立的小社区和我们文化的纯洁性。

But the most enjoyable times I’ve had are with people completely unlike myself, where I can learn about what .

但我度过的最愉快的时光是和完全不同于我自己的人在一起，在那里我可以学到什么。

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I mean, your whole omnivorous brain is one vast testimony to the power of cultures clashing and joining.

我的意思是，你的整个杂食性大脑是文化冲突和融合力量的巨大见证。

We’re all driven — and I’m again speculating because these are unusual questions — by complexes we don’t understand.

我们都被我们不理解的情结驱动着——我再次进行猜测，因为这些都是不寻常的问题。

If you have six adverse childhood experiences in your life — some sort of abuse, some sort of loneliness, some sense of betrayal — it’s hard to get a sense of self-agency.

如果你一生中有六种不良的童年经历——“某种虐待、某种孤独、某种背叛感”——那么你就很难获得自我代理感。

Everything’s recoverable, but attachment patterns, early trauma, a sense of if you’ve been betrayed enough, then long-term thinking doesn’t make sense.

一切都是可以恢复的，但依恋模式、早期创伤、如果你被背叛得够多的感觉，那么长期思考就没有意义。

So I would say the desire to not aspire — and you can rationalize that away — probably comes from some sort of wound, an injury, in people’s lives.

所以我想说，不追求的愿望——“你可以合理化它”——可能来自人们生活中的某种创伤。

After I missed the Trump thing so badly, I traveled around the country for 18 months, and I’m still doing it and always talking to Trump voters and other voters.

在我非常怀念特朗普的事情之后，我花了 18 个月的时间环游全国，而且我仍然这样做，并且总是与特朗普选民和其他选民交谈。

The amount of wounding and amount of sense of betrayal, high levels of distrust, high levels of feeling “Everyone else is getting ahead and I’m falling behind,” I found especially for young people in their 20s, even people with sterling educations.

大量的伤害和大量的背叛感，高度的不信任，高度的感觉“其他人都在进步，我正在落后”，我发现特别是对于 20 多岁的年轻人，甚至是受过良好教育的人来说。

The 20s have become for many a brutal time, that they don’t quite know what their purpose is in life.

二十多岁对于许多人来说是一个残酷的时期，他们不太知道自己的人生目标是什么。

They don’t quite have the skills to get out of the wide-open options.

他们不太有能力摆脱广阔的选择。

They’re afraid of closing off options because they’re not really quite sure who they are.

他们害怕关闭选择，因为他们不太确定自己是谁。

We’ve produced a society that’s made being 25 phenomenally difficult, in part because you’re in the most supervised childhood at human history until 21, and after that, you’re released into the complete void.

我们创造了一个让 25 岁变得异常困难的社会，部分原因是在 21 岁之前，你正处于人类历史上受到最严格监督的童年，而在那之后，你就被释放到完全的空虚之中。

We’ve produced a society that’s made being 25 phenomenally difficult, in part because you’re in the most supervised childhood at human history until 21, and after that, you’re released into the complete void.

我们创造了一个让 25 岁变得异常困难的社会，部分原因是在 21 岁之前，你正处于人类历史上受到最严格监督的童年，而在那之后，你就被释放到完全的空虚之中。

You’re not going to get married for another 12 years.

你再过12年就不会结婚了。

You’re not going to settle into your career.

你不会适应你的职业生涯。

I’ve come to notice it in my students.

我在我的学生身上注意到了这一点。

I’ve come to call it the Telos Crisis, the loss of sense of purpose.

我把它称为“终极危机”，即目标感的丧失。

When you get the setback in your mid-20s, you don’t quite know where your life is, you haven’t discovered it, you haven’t found some calling that just seizes you, and it can be pretty rough.

当你在20多岁的时候遇到挫折时，你不太知道自己的生活在哪里，你还没有发现它，你还没有找到一些抓住你的呼唤，而且它可能会非常艰难。

Nietzsche has a phrase: “He who has a why to live for can endure any how.” That if you know what your long term is, then you can endure the setbacks, but if that hasn’t become clear to you, then the setbacks are super hard.

尼采有句名言：“知道为什么而活的人可以忍受任何方式。”如果你知道自己的长期目标是什么，那么你就可以忍受挫折，但如果你还不清楚这一点，那么挫折就会非常艰难。

And I noticed it in the rising depression rates, the rising mental health problems, the rising suicide problems.

我在抑郁症发病率上升、心理健康问题上升、自杀问题上升中注意到了这一点。

We’ve sort of left people in a very unstructured experience after age 21.

我们让人们在 21 岁之后经历了一种非常无组织的经历。

I just gave this commencement talk at Butler University, couple days ago.

几天前，我刚刚在巴特勒大学做了毕业演讲。

And commencements are happy, and I was like, “Your life is going to suck in three years.”

毕业典礼很开心，我当时想，“三年后你的生活就会变得一团糟。”

On the golden years

论黄金岁月

He has more complex things, but then they rise up, and some of it is straight biological.

他有更复杂的东西，但后来它们上升了，其中一些是直接生物学的。

If you give people experiments where you ask them to look at a crowd of faces, young people look at angry faces; they go toward threat.

如果你给人们做实验，让他们看一大堆面孔，年轻人会看愤怒的面孔；他们走向威胁。

Old people, their eyes just fixate on the happy faces.

老人们，目光只停留在幸福的脸上。

They just perceive reality as a more friendly thing.

他们只是将现实视为更友好的事情。

So that’s one of the reasons.

这就是原因之一。

He’s even got data on .

他甚至有数据。

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apparently, baboons also have a U-shaped curve, that they’re happy in young baboonhood.

显然，狒狒也有U形曲线，这表明它们在小狒狒时期很快乐。

Then they get middle aged, baboonhood stinks.

然后他们就到了中年，狒狒的气质变得很臭。

And then upper to old age baboonhood.

然后到老年狒狒期。

I don’t know how they measure this.

我不知道他们如何衡量这一点。

But to me, I guess my answer would be, it’s again quality of relationships.

但对我来说，我想我的答案是，这又是关系的质量。

Quality of relationships correlates extremely well with happiness levels.

人际关系的质量与幸福水平密切相关。

If you join a club that meets once a month, that produces the same happiness gain as doubling your income.

如果你加入一个每月聚会一次的俱乐部，所带来的幸福感与你的收入翻倍相同。

So if relationships are the thing .

所以，如果关系是问题的话。

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And I would say that people get better at living, that in their 50s and 60s they get out of their own way.

我想说的是，人们在 50 多岁和 60 多岁的时候会变得更加善于生活，他们会摆脱自己的方式。

The sort of monster of self-regard diminishes.

这种自尊心的怪物逐渐消失。

How am I doing?

我怎么样？

How am I doing?

我怎么样？

What do people think of me?

人们怎么看我？

After a certain age people stop caring, and that’s the recipe for happiness.

过了一定年龄，人们就会不再关心，这就是幸福的秘诀。

There’s a second mountain, and it happens often in their 50s and 60s.

还有第二座山，这种情况经常发生在 50 多岁和 60 多岁的人身上。

The second mountain tends to be more about community service.

第二座山往往更多的是社区服务。

It’s more internal, less external.

它更多的是内在的，更少的是外在的。

The first mountain is more building up the identity and the ego.

第一座山更多的是建立身份和自我。

The second mountain is sort of shedding it all, and it’s more about pouring back.

第二座山有点像是在倾倒一切，更多的是倾泻而回。

You meet person after person who built a career, and then they went off and became a teacher.

你会遇到一个又一个建立了职业生涯的人，然后他们离开并成为一名教师。

They went to Tibet and meditated, or they dedicated their life to some cause.

他们去西藏冥想，或者为某种事业奉献一生。

And that second mountain is a more spiritual mountain, but it’s just a happier mountain.

第二座山是一座更精神的山，但它只是一座更快乐的山。

So I think people just learn lessons as they get older, and they get better at living.

所以我认为人们随着年龄的增长会吸取教训，并且生活得更好。

Not many people have quit Facebook, right?

没有多少人退出 Facebook，对吗？

There can be a big ZIP file of information about you out there.

那里可能有一个包含您信息的大 ZIP 文件。

There’s not actually any great protest in the parks of Arlington that I know about.

据我所知，阿灵顿公园实际上并没有发生任何大规模的抗议活动。

Some media people, some intellectuals, but otherwise, no.

有些是媒体人，有些是知识分子，但除此之外，没有。

To me, the problem with Facebook is the fact that, especially for 16-year-olds, the more social media you use, the more depressed you’re likely to be.

对我来说，Facebook 的问题在于，尤其是对于 16 岁的人来说，使用社交媒体越多，你可能就越抑郁。

That’s the big problem with social media, not the privacy invasions.

这是社交媒体的大问题，而不是隐私侵犯。

I think people assume that that’s their business model, and the stuff they find out about us is trivial — my wife and I, we were going to decorate our house with one of those little barrels, like a decorative barrel.

我认为人们认为这就是他们的商业模式，而他们发现的关于我们的东西都是微不足道的——我和我的妻子，我们要用其中一个小桶来装饰我们的房子，就像一个装饰桶。

And for the next six months, whenever I logged on to any website, I had to look at a damn barrel.

在接下来的六个月里，每当我登录任何网站时，我都必须看一个该死的桶。

Because they thought I was going to buy a barrel, and so we decided we didn’t want a barrel.

因为他们认为我要买一桶，所以我们决定不想要一桶。

Is that really .

真的是这样吗？

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。

.?

.?

Okay, so that’s an invasion of my privacy.

好吧，这侵犯了我的隐私。

But I’m sure there are other privacy experts who are more alarmed, but I haven’t seen a massive pain caused by this invasion.

但我确信还有其他隐私专家更加震惊，但我还没有看到这种入侵造成的巨大痛苦。

On things under- and overrated

关于被低估和高估的事情

Then he comes out with Born to Run, which is a massive success.

然后他推出了《天生会跑》，取得了巨大成功。

He’s on the cover of Time and Newsweek, so he has made it.

他登上了《时代》和《新闻周刊》的封面，所以他成功了。

The next logical step for any artist in the commercial sphere would be to go big.

对于商业领域的任何艺术家来说，下一个合乎逻辑的步骤就是扩大规模。

I’ve just made it out of New Jersey.

我刚刚从新泽西州出来。

I’m going big.

我要变大了。

I’m going to go for the big album that’s going to really make me a superstar.

我会选择一张真正让我成为超级巨星的大专辑。

Instead, partly for legal reasons, he takes four years off, and he goes down back into his roots of these New Jersey small towns, and he writes an album called Darkness on the Edge of Town, which is dark, small, simple, and really local, going back into his landscape.

相反，部分出于法律原因，他休了四年假，回到新泽西这些小镇的根源，写了一张名为《城镇边缘的黑暗》的专辑，这张专辑黑暗、小、简单，而且非常本土化，回到了他的风景。

And that was an amazingly creative and courageous decision.

这是一个非常有创意和勇敢的决定。

I saw Springsteen in Madrid about four years ago.

大约四年前我在马德里见过斯普林斯汀。

I’m surrounded by 65,000 Spanish kids, and they’ve got t-shirts with all the pieces of landscape from that album, Highway 9, the Stone Pony, all these little items from the New Jersey landscape that Springsteen came about.

我周围有 65,000 名西班牙孩子，他们的 T 恤上印有专辑中的所有风景，《9 号公路》、《石头小马》，以及斯普林斯汀创作的新泽西风景中的所有这些小物品。

And that’s a lesson for an artist, and it’s like the Faulkner lessons, like a lot of artists.

这对艺术家来说是一个教训，就像福克纳的教训，就像很多艺术家一样。

If you go to the power of your particular and build the landscape there, the audience will sense the authenticity of what you’re doing.

如果你发挥自己独特的力量并在那里构建景观，观众就会感受到你所做的事情的真实性。

You’re exploring your own stuff, and they will come to your landscape and live in your landscape with you.

你正在探索自己的东西，他们会来到你的风景里，和你一起生活在你的风景里。

There was a moment in that concert in Madrid where he’s singing, “I was born in the USA, I was born in the USA.” And 65,000 Spanish kids are singing, “I was born in the USA.

在马德里的那场音乐会上，有一刻他唱道：“我出生在美国，我出生在美国。” 65,000 名西班牙孩子在唱：“我出生在美国。

I was born in the USA.”

我出生在美国。”

I’m like, “No you weren’t.

我想，“不，你不是。

No you weren’t.”

不，你不是。”

But to me, one of the great ironies of Springsteen is that he embraces, in theory, the ethos of rock and roll.

但对我来说，斯普林斯汀最大的讽刺之一是他在理论上拥护摇滚精神。

“I’m on the road, I’m rebelling, I’m getting out.” The guy now lives 10 miles from where he grew up.

“我在路上，我在反抗，我要出去。”这个人现在住在距离他长大的地方 10 英里的地方。

The ethos was “Get out,” but his genius was to go deep and plant roots and stay within his roots.

他的精神是“走出去”，但他的天才在于深入扎根并留在他的根内。

And that was a great courageous artistic decision, which I notice a lot of artists making that decision.

这是一个非常勇敢的艺术决定，我注意到很多艺术家都做出了这个决定。

Lin-Manuel Miranda has one of those moments where you reject the easy success, and you go back to who you are.

林-曼努尔·米兰达（Lin-Manuel Miranda）有这样一个时刻，你拒绝轻易的成功，然后回到你自己。

If I say instead, well for me, kind of foundational American musicians, singers, songwriters, I would look to Paul Simon who’s more global, Bob Dylan who’s more religiously bisexual as a stronger link to black culture.

如果我说，对我来说，美国的基础音乐家、歌手、词曲作者，我会关注更加全球化的保罗·西蒙（Paul Simon），以及更加虔诚的双性恋者鲍勃·迪伦（Bob Dylan），因为他们与黑人文化有更紧密的联系。

And I would put Springsteen as less important than them.

我认为斯普林斯汀不如他们那么重要。

What would you say to talk me out of that?

你会说什么来劝说我不要这么做？

He’s not a cosmopolitan, actually; I think you’re right about that.

事实上，他并不是一个国际主义者。我认为你是对的。

I would point to some influences that .

我想指出一些影响。

.

。

.

。

you know, Sam Cooke and some others.

你知道，萨姆·库克和其他一些人。

B.

B.

B.

B.

King probably, some of the blues guitarists.

King 可能是一些蓝调吉他手。

A lot of the 1950s R&B singers were big influences.

许多 20 世纪 50 年代的 R&B 歌手都具有很大的影响力。

He really grew up by the ’55–’65 era, and I would say he drew from white and black in that era.

他确实是在 55-65 时代长大的，我想说他是从那个时代的白人和黑人中汲取灵感的。

But I don’t know how to compare him to Dylan.

但我不知道如何将他与迪伦进行比较。

Dylan is not my cup of tea a lot of time, especially later Dylan.

很多时候迪伦都不是我的菜，尤其是后来的迪伦。

But I would say that, as an artist who’s exploring his own issues and is relentlessly not performing, but is being relentlessly honest with the issues that really trouble him and sent him to analysis for 45 years.

但我想说的是，作为一个艺术家，他正在探索自己的问题，并且坚持不懈地不表演，而是坚持不懈地诚实地面对那些真正困扰他并让他接受了 45 年分析的问题。

He’s a pretty honest guy, and he’s got a lot of good passages in his memoir, which is a really good memoir.

他是一个非常诚实的人，他的回忆录中有很多好的段落，这是一本非常好的回忆录。

It’s a memoir of somebody who has been in analysis all his life because he’s talked it all through.

这是一个一生都在分析的人的回忆录，因为他把这一切都讲完了。

One of them is his evaluation of his own voice, which is a medium-quality voice.

其中之一就是他对自己声音的评价，属于中等音质的声音。

But he says, “I do sing truly to what I’m feeling,” and he’s very transparent.

但他说，“我确实根据自己的感受唱歌，”而且他非常坦诚。

I had a chance to meet him a couple times, once for an extended period.

我有机会见到他几次，其中一次是很长一段时间。

He’s amazingly shy, and when you see him on stage, you can’t believe you’re seeing the same human being.

他非常害羞，当你在舞台上看到他时，你简直不敢相信你看到的是同一个人。

A lot of writers are like this.

很多作家都是这样。

They’re only fully themselves when they’re in the process of writing.

他们只有在写作的过程中才能完全展现自己。

So he’s someone who’s honest about what he’s processing and then throws it out.

所以他是一个诚实地对待自己正在处理的事情然后将其扔掉的人。

And the key to good performance when I go to a concert or the key to public speaking is, are they willing to throw themselves out into the audience and hope the audience will pick them up?

当我去音乐会或公开演讲时，良好表现的关键是，他们是否愿意将自己投入到观众中并希望观众接受他们？

And if you want to see a good speaker or a good musician, they always have that quality, that “I’m helpless here, you got to help me here.” And he does that every time.

如果你想看到一位优秀的演讲者或优秀的音乐家，他们总是具有这样的品质，即“我在这里无助，你必须在这里帮助我。”他每次都这么做。

With everybody else it’s like Breaking Bad, overrated or underrated?

对于其他人来说，这就像《绝命毒师》一样，被高估还是被低估？

I got Socrates.

我得到了苏格拉底。

I will say Socrates is overrated for this reason.

I will say Socrates is overrated for this reason.

We call them dialogues.

我们称之为对话。

But really, if you read them, they’re like Socrates making a long speech and some other schmo saying, “Oh yes.

But really, if you read them, they’re like Socrates making a long speech and some other schmo saying, “Oh yes.

It must surely be so, Socrates.”

肯定是这样的，苏格拉底。”

Another view is that every now and then, just things change, and they don’t go back to how they were.

另一种观点认为，事情时不时就会发生变化，而且不会回到原来的样子。

So the postwar era, those presidents do seem fundamentally different from a lot of the knuckleheads we had in the mid- to late 19th century.

因此，战后时代的那些总统看起来确实与 19 世纪中后期的许多傻瓜有根本的不同。

So here we are in 2018 — which of those two models or some other model do you think does best?

那么，我们已经到了 2018 年 —— 您认为这两个模型或其他模型中哪一个表现最好？

Then the reaction will be, okay, we’ve got a narcissistic blowhard in the White House, we’ll go back to .

然后反应会是，好吧，我们白宫里有一个自恋的吹牛大王，我们会回到……。

.

。

.

。

I could use like a boring manager, like Mitch Daniels, who was governor of Indiana and now president of Purdue.

我可以像一个无聊的经理一样使用，比如米奇丹尼尔斯，他是印第安纳州州长，现在是普渡大学的校长。

When he got into office as governor, the line at the DMV was an hour and 20 minutes.

当他就任州长时，DMV 的排队时间长达 1 小时 20 分钟。

When he got done, it was eight minutes.

当他完成时，已经是八分钟了。

And I’m like, for president, I’ll take that.

我想，对于总统，我会接受。

That’s what I’d like, just somebody to manage things.

That’s what I’d like, just somebody to manage things.

So he was five foot six, low to the ground, in touch with the people.

So he was five foot six, low to the ground, in touch with the people.

That was one reaction.

这是一种反应。

But the more likely one I think is, Trump was a swing to a certain sort of paleo Pat Buchanan, right?

但我认为更有可能的是，特朗普转向了某种古帕特·布坎南，对吧？

And I think it’s a little more likely that we’ll get the swing to a paleo left, and that we’ll get the Trumpism on the left, which will be pretty socialistic and pretty progressive left.

我认为我们更有可能转向古左派，并且我们会得到左翼的特朗普主义，这将是相当社会主义和相当进步的左派。

Those cities are all run by people who say, “There’s all those culture war, cable TV issues — we’re putting that nonsense aside, and we’re just going to talk about .

这些城市的管理者都说：“存在着所有这些文化战争、有线电视问题 ——我们把这些废话放在一边，我们只是要谈论……。”

.

。

.” I was with this guy, mayor of Detroit, Mike Duggan, and he talked about where to put the lamp post, where to cut the grass, the basic management issues.

”。我和底特律市长迈克·杜根（Mike Duggan）在一起，他谈论了把灯柱放在哪里、在哪里割草以及基本的管理问题。

The cities that are doing well are run by people who do business, private-public partnerships.

表现良好的城市是由做生意的人、公私合作伙伴经营的。

They focus on community colleges, and they produce measurable results for working-class Americans.

他们专注于社区大学，为美国工薪阶层带来可衡量的成果。

To me, all you have to do is take the success of all these mayors at the local level and try to nationalize it.

To me, all you have to do is take the success of all these mayors at the local level and try to nationalize it.

And that’s completely plausible to me.

这对我来说是完全合理的。

When you look at times of American history when we have recovered, turned around the social decline without the benefit of war, it’s like periods from 1890 to 1910, and generally we take some local, series of local movements, and we merge it into a national movement.

当你回顾美国历史上的那些时期，当我们在没有战争的情况下复苏、扭转社会衰落的时期时，就像1890年到1910年的时期一样，通常我们会采取一些地方性的、一系列地方性的运动，然后将其合并为一场全国性的运动。

In the 1890s, we had all these civic organizations that grew up all at once.

In the 1890s, we had all these civic organizations that grew up all at once.

We had the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, the Boys Clubs, the Girls Clubs, the temperance movement, the settlement house movements, the NAACP, the unions.

我们有童子军、女童子军、男孩俱乐部、女孩俱乐部、禁酒运动、安置所运动、全国有色人种协进会、工会。

They all grew up in five years of each other.

他们都在五年里长大。

Then they joined together eventually and formed the Progressive Movement, and they cleaned up government.

Then they joined together eventually and formed the Progressive Movement, and they cleaned up government.

So to me, if you want to look how America changes, look around what’s happening locally and figure it’ll probably nationalize at some point.

所以对我来说，如果你想看看美国如何变化，看看当地正在发生的事情，并认为它可能会在某个时候国有化。

And it was like, he was the best arguer in human history, and I was a 22-year-old.

And it was like, he was the best arguer in human history, and I was a 22-year-old.

It was my TV debut — you can go on YouTube.

这是我的电视首秀 — 你可以在 YouTube 上观看。

I have a lot of hair and big glasses.

我有很多头发和大眼镜。

But I will say, I had never met a libertarian before.

But I will say, I had never met a libertarian before.

And every night — we taped for five days — every night he took me and my colleagues out to dinner in San Francisco and really taught us about economics.

每天晚上——“我们录了五天”——每天晚上他都会带我和我的同事去旧金山吃晚饭，真正教给我们经济学知识。

Later, he stayed close to me.

后来他就离我很近了。

I called him a mentor.

我称他为导师。

I didn’t become a libertarian, never quite like him, but a truly great teacher and a truly important influence on my life and so many others.

我没有成为一个自由主义者，从来都不像他，但我是一位真正伟大的老师，对我的生活和其他许多人的生活产生了真正重要的影响。

He was a model of what an academic economist should be like.

他是学院派经济学家的典范。

I will say one other thing about Friedman.

我还要说一件事关于弗里德曼。

Early in my life, when I was 23, I got this little fellowship at the Hoover Institution.

在我生命的早期，当我 23 岁的时候，我在胡佛研究所获得了这个小小的奖学金。

And at 3:30, you would have cookies, and you could go to Milton Friedman’s table with all the economists at Stanford or Sidney Hook’s table with all the philosophers.

3:30，你会吃饼干，然后你可以和斯坦福大学所有经济学家一起去米尔顿·弗里德曼 (Milton Friedman) 的餐桌，或者和所有哲学家一起去西德尼·胡克 (Sidney Hook) 的餐桌。

So some days I would go hear Hook.

所以有时候我会去听胡克的演讲。

And I remember he was a great philosopher, and he did an hour-and-a-half discussion of the problem of evil, which was thrilling.

我记得他是一位伟大的哲学家，他对邪恶问题进行了一个半小时的讨论，这令人兴奋。

Once I was sitting at the Friedman table, and I was making some dumb argument, I’m sure.

有一次我坐在弗里德曼的桌子旁，我确信我正在提出一些愚蠢的论点。

And some other economist at the table ripped me to shreds, but I didn’t understand what he was saying because it was all jargon.

桌上的另一位经济学家把我撕成碎片，但我不明白他在说什么，因为那都是行话。

And I finally just said, “I really don’t know what you just said.

我最后只是说：“我真的不知道你刚才说什么。

I don’t understand, I’m sorry.” And Friedman laughed, and he was totally on my side.

我不明白，对不起。”弗里德曼笑了，他完全站在我这边。

I felt great gratitude to him for leaping to my defense, and he was an economist who could speak without jargon and sort of a model of that.

我非常感谢他跳出来为我辩护，他是一位经济学家，可以不用行话说话，可以说是行话的典范。

But that was an act of great charity, which I remain grateful to him for.

但这是一种伟大的慈善行为，对此我仍然感激他。

On the David Brooks production function

关于大卫·布鲁克斯生产函数

The thing that’s distinctive about my style is that my brain has very bad memory, so I have to write everything down.

我的风格的独特之处在于我的大脑记忆力很差，所以我必须把一切都写下来。

Then I think geographically.

然后我从地理角度思考。

For each column I’ll have 200 pages of notes and then a bunch of things I’ve written to myself, and I lay them out on the floor of my living room in piles, and every pile is a paragraph in my column.

对于每一专栏，我都会有 200 页的笔记，然后是一堆我写给自己的东西，我把它们成堆地放在客厅的地板上，每一堆都是我专栏中的一个段落。

The column is 850 words, and I’ll have 14 or 15 piles.

专栏有850个字，我会有14或15堆。

I’ll pick up a pile, write it, throw the pile out, pick up another pile of papers.

我会捡起一堆，写下来，扔掉，再捡起另一堆文件。

The thing that’s distinctive about my writing style is that my brain has very bad memory, so I have to write everything down.

我的写作风格的特点是我的大脑记忆力很差，所以我必须把一切都写下来。

Then I think geographically.

然后我从地理角度思考。

For each column I’ll have 200 pages of notes and then a bunch of things I’ve written to myself, and I lay them out on the floor of my living room in piles, and every pile is a paragraph in my column.

对于每一专栏，我都会有 200 页的笔记，然后是一堆我写给自己的东西，我把它们成堆地放在客厅的地板上，每一堆都是我专栏中的一个段落。

The column is 850 words, and I’ll have 14 or 15 piles.

专栏有850个字，我会有14或15堆。

I’ll pick up a pile, write it, throw the pile out, pick up another pile of papers.

我会捡起一堆，写下来，扔掉，再捡起另一堆文件。

Writing for me is not typing into the keyboards.

对我来说写作不是敲键盘。

It’s crawling around on the floor, organizing my piles.

It’s crawling around on the floor, organizing my piles.

And the lesson for my students, which they ignore, is that your paper should be 80 percent done by the time you sit down and type it because writing is about structure and traffic management.

And the lesson for my students, which they ignore, is that your paper should be 80 percent done by the time you sit down and type it because writing is about structure and traffic management.

If you don’t get that right, everything else will flow badly.

如果你做得不好，其他一切都会很糟糕。

If something’s not working, judges have a saying, “That opinion won’t write.” They thought they knew what they believed, but then they started writing, and it just wasn’t flowing.

如果某件事不起作用，法官们会说：“该意见不会被写入。”他们以为自己知道自己相信什么，但当他们开始写作时，却发现写作并不流畅。

Don’t try to fix it; start over with a new structure.

不要试图修复它；从新的结构开始。

So to me, I crawl.

所以对我来说，我爬行。

I write by crawling around on the carpet.

我在地毯上爬行来写作。

The one virtue of this job is that you have to come up with a new idea every three days.

The one virtue of this job is that you have to come up with a new idea every three days.

It may not be a good idea.

这可能不是一个好主意。

I find I’ve written more than 1,000 columns, but if I write a bad one, then I feel really bad.

我发现我写了1000多篇专栏，但是如果我写得不好，那我就很难过。

I feel really humiliated.

我真的觉得自己受到了羞辱。

And if I write a bad one, and Ross Douthat and Bret Stephens write good ones, I feel really bad.

And if I write a bad one, and Ross Douthat and Bret Stephens write good ones, I feel really bad.

I’m trying to think of other than the obvious.

我试图思考一些显而易见的事情之外的事情。

I go to conferences; I don’t learn that way particularly.

我去参加会议；我不是特别这样学习。

I learn by reading.

我通过阅读来学习。

I’m always reading — not as much as you, but 50 percent of you maybe.

我一直在读书 ——虽然没有你那么多，但也许是你的 50%。

I think I would say the action is here.

我想我会说行动就在这里。

I mentioned James Fallows before, but called “The Fallows Question,” which is, Jim Fallows in the ’80s, he went to Japan, then he moved to China.

我之前提到过詹姆斯·法洛斯，但​​叫“法洛斯问题”，就是八十年代的吉姆·法洛斯，他去了日本，然后又搬到了中国。

He wrote about Iraq.

他写了关于伊拉克的文章。

Each decade, he’s more or less picked the spot where the action is.

每十年，他或多或少都会选择行动的地点。

So the question is, if you could live anywhere in the world where history is being made, where is the action?

So the question is, if you could live anywhere in the world where history is being made, where is the action?

And Fallows now thinks it’s like Fresno, California.

法洛斯现在认为它就像加利福尼亚州的弗雷斯诺。

But I would make the argument that Washington is where the action is right now.

But I would make the argument that Washington is where the action is right now.

So living here actually has some good utility even if it seems a little boring.

所以住在这里实际上有一些很好的用处，尽管看起来有点无聊。

The second thing is, part of my career, rightly or wrongly, is based on the view that politics .

第二件事是，我职业生涯的一部分，无论正确或错误，都是基于这样的观点：政治。

.

。

.

。

Our conversation is overpoliticized and undermoralized.

Our conversation is overpoliticized and undermoralized.

We write too much about politics and not enough about relationship and truth and yearning for goodness and meaning.

我们写了太多关于政治的文章，而关于关系、真理以及对善良和意义的渴望却写得不够。

So what I try to do with my little column is sort of shift the direction a little in more that sort of meaning, purpose, culture direction.

因此，我试图用我的小专栏做的就是稍微改变方向，以更多的意义、目的、文化方向。

Then the Ezra Klein model seems probable.

那么埃兹拉·克莱因模型似乎是可能的。

You go online, you do work nobody else wants to do so somebody pays attention to you, and then you get well known for being a smart person who’s willing to work hard.

You go online, you do work nobody else wants to do so somebody pays attention to you, and then you get well known for being a smart person who’s willing to work hard.

I think that’s probably still the way to go.

我认为这可能仍然是要走的路。

The obvious lessons are say yes to everything.

明显的教训是对一切说“是”。

You don’t know what’s going to lead to what.

你不知道什么会导致什么。

So when you’re 24, say yes to every opportunity.

So when you’re 24, say yes to every opportunity.

I was a movie critic, I was a foreign correspondent.

I was a movie critic, I was a foreign correspondent.

That was a very useful thing to have.

这是一个非常有用的东西。

I wrote about El Salvador.

我写了关于萨尔瓦多的文章。

I’ve still never been to El Salvador.

我还没去过萨尔瓦多。

Just somebody asks you to do something, say yes.

只是有人要求你做某事，就说“是”。

I’m writing a book on this, so I’m filled with random bits of advice right now.

I’m writing a book on this, so I’m filled with random bits of advice right now.

But there’s a guy, friend of mine named Fred Swaniker, who grew up in Africa, and his mother was a teacher, and he was educated here.

But there’s a guy, friend of mine named Fred Swaniker, who grew up in Africa, and his mother was a teacher, and he was educated here.

He founded a school in South Africa called the African Leadership Academy, and he was trying to figure out what to do with the rest of his life.

He founded a school in South Africa called the African Leadership Academy, and he was trying to figure out what to do with the rest of his life.

And he said — which is true advice — when you’re thinking about what to do with your life, don’t say what do I want to do from life?

And he said — which is true advice — when you’re thinking about what to do with your life, don’t say what do I want to do from life?

Ask what is life expecting of me?

问我生活的期望是什么？

This is the Viktor Frankl question.

这是维克托·弗兰克尔问题。

What problems are around me that are really calling me?

What problems are around me that are really calling me?

And then, one, is it a big problem?

然后，第一，这是一个大问题吗？

You got to fall in love with a big problem because if you have some human capital, you might as well go for the big problem.

You got to fall in love with a big problem because if you have some human capital, you might as well go for the big problem.

Two, is it a problem your life history has made you uniquely qualified to serve?

Two, is it a problem your life history has made you uniquely qualified to serve?

So Swaniker decided education in Africa is the big problem, and there need to be more universities for all of Africa.

So Swaniker decided education in Africa is the big problem, and there need to be more universities for all of Africa.

And he said, “Actually, I’m uniquely qualified to do that because I did grow up across all of Africa.

And he said, “Actually, I’m uniquely qualified to do that because I did grow up across all of Africa.

I was an educator; my mom was an educator.

我是一名教育家；我妈妈是一名教育家。

I did have the advantage of an American education.

I did have the advantage of an American education.

I did go back and form a Pan-African high school.

I did go back and form a Pan-African high school.

So I’m going to start universities.” He’s already started one in Mauritius, and I think he’s on schedule to start another 10 or 15 universities across Africa, which is an audacious goal, but it’s one that he was uniquely qualified to serve.

所以我要开始上大学。” He’s already started one in Mauritius, and I think he’s on schedule to start another 10 or 15 universities across Africa, which is an audacious goal, but it’s one that he was uniquely qualified to serve.

Fred Buechner, the novelist who I mentioned before — he has the most famous phrase of avocation, which is, “Find the spot where your deep gladness meets the world’s deep need,” so something you intrinsically love doing and match it with some deep problem that’s out there.

Fred Buechner, the novelist who I mentioned before — he has the most famous phrase of avocation, which is, “Find the spot where your deep gladness meets the world’s deep need,” so something you intrinsically love doing and match it with some deep problem that’s out there.

So how do you do that?

那么你该怎么做呢？

And what are examples of people who are great at making commitments?

And what are examples of people who are great at making commitments?

And what is a commitment?

什么是承诺？

My favorite definition of commitment, by the way, is falling in love with something and then building a structure of behavior around it for those moments when love falters.

My favorite definition of commitment, by the way, is falling in love with something and then building a structure of behavior around it for those moments when love falters.

So Jews love their God but they keep kosher just in case.

So Jews love their God but they keep kosher just in case.

Q&A

问答

No, first thing to say is that nobody supervises us.

No, first thing to say is that nobody supervises us.

We are given total academic freedom.

我们被赋予完全的学术自由。

We have copyeditors in New York, but we really don’t consult with editors.

我们在纽约有文案编辑，但我们实际上不咨询编辑。

We basically write the column and send it in.

我们基本上是写好专栏然后发送出去。

So for good or ill, it’s all us.

所以无论好坏，都是我们自己。

The second thing I would say is, if you read my stuff in the Weekly Standard, I was writing this Hamiltonian, Teddy Roosevelt style of Republicanism back then, which I still think I’m writing.

The second thing I would say is, if you read my stuff in the Weekly Standard, I was writing this Hamiltonian, Teddy Roosevelt style of Republicanism back then, which I still think I’m writing.

The third thing to say is, I think events have pushed me away from a more pure free-market view especially, because I think the structures of the economy have become more evident, the structural flaws of the economy.

The third thing to say is, I think events have pushed me away from a more pure free-market view especially, because I think the structures of the economy have become more evident, the structural flaws of the economy.

And that I’ve become a little more tolerant of government intervention as inequality is wide, and as working class has been left behind, as society is falling apart.

And that I’ve become a little more tolerant of government intervention as inequality is wide, and as working class has been left behind, as society is falling apart.

So, I probably have drifted a little to the left as the party has drifted in a more populist, nativist direction, but I don’t think I’ve moved all that much.

So, I probably have drifted a little to the left as the party has drifted in a more populist, nativist direction, but I don’t think I’ve moved all that much.

I’m still basically your Teddy Roosevelt, Alexander Hamilton Whig.

我基本上仍然是你们的泰迪·罗斯福、亚历山大·汉密尔顿辉格党。

If you’re Steve Jobs, J.

如果你是史蒂夫·乔布斯，J.

K.

K.

Rowling, or Denzel Washington, failure is awesome.

罗琳或丹泽尔·华盛顿，失败是伟大的。

But for most people, failure just sucks, and I wouldn’t do it.

但对于大多数人来说，失败很糟糕，我不会这样做。

But for most people, failure just sucks, and I wouldn’t do it.

但对于大多数人来说，失败很糟糕，我不会这样做。

Now as for suffering, suffering comes whether you want it .

至于痛苦，无论你愿意，痛苦都会来。

.

。

.

。

I wrote a little section in my last book about the value of suffering, and one of my students came up to me and said, “Well, how can I find some suffering?”

I wrote a little section in my last book about the value of suffering, and one of my students came up to me and said, “Well, how can I find some suffering?”

If you ask somebody, “What made you who you are?” nobody ever says, “Oh, I went to Hawaii and I had an amazing time.

如果你问某人：“是什么让你成为了现在的你？”没有人会说：“哦，我去了夏威夷，我度过了一段美好的时光。

That was really the transformative event of my life.” But a moment of suffering is usually what they point to, or struggle, and what they do is they .

这确实是我一生中的变革性事件。”但痛苦的时刻通常就是他们所指的，或者说挣扎，他们所做的就是他们。

.

。

.

。

There’s a Paul Tillich phrase that what suffering does is, it introduces you to yourself and reminds you you’re not the person you thought you were.

There’s a Paul Tillich phrase that what suffering does is, it introduces you to yourself and reminds you you’re not the person you thought you were.

And then he says, “What it does is, it carves through the floor of what you thought was the basement of your soul, and it reveals a cavity, and then carves through that floor and reveals a cavity below.”

然后他说，“它的作用是，它会凿穿你认为是灵魂地下室的地板，并显露出一个空洞，然后再凿穿那层地板，显露出下面的一个空洞。”

So moments of suffering reveal the deepness of a person the way nothing else does.

因此，痛苦的时刻比其他任何事情都更能揭示一个人的深度。

Then I think you realize the only thing that can fill that depth is a spiritual food and not a material food, and people want to fill that depth with something.

然后我想你会意识到，唯一能够填充那个深度的是精神食粮，而不是物质食粮，人们想要用一些东西来填充那个深度。

I have two friends, for example, who lost a child.

例如，我有两个朋友，他们失去了一个孩子。

Nobody says, “Well, we grieved for two years.

Nobody says, “Well, we grieved for two years.

Let’s go out and party, and let’s be happy.” They want to turn that moment of suffering into a cause and a precondition for service.

我们出去聚会吧，让我们快乐起来。”他们想把那一刻的痛苦变成服务的原因和前提。

So they created a charity called Hope for Henry about their child, in honor of their child, so other children wouldn’t have to suffer from what Henry suffered from.

So they created a charity called Hope for Henry about their child, in honor of their child, so other children wouldn’t have to suffer from what Henry suffered from.

They turned a moment of suffering into a redemption and meaning, and those who don’t turn their moments of suffering into that kind of redemptive narrative, they can really shrivel.

他们将痛苦的时刻转化为救赎和意义，而那些不将痛苦的时刻转化为那种救赎叙事的人，他们真的会枯萎。

But I find most people, those moments of suffering deepen them, spiritualize them, and they .

但我发现大多数人，那些痛苦的时刻加深了他们的痛苦，使他们精神化，他们……

.

。

.

。

What I talked about — that monster of self-regard — it sort of crashes through the ego.

我所说的——“自尊心的怪物”——它有点冲垮了自我。

The people who’ve been through deep suffering, it sort of breaks the ego and they are less self-obsessed.

经历过深重痛苦的人，会打破自我，不再那么自恋。

There’s a guy named Henri Nouwen who I read, and I’m not sure I agree with this.

我读过一个叫亨利·努文的人，我不确定我是否同意这一点。

He says, “When you’re in a moment of suffering, your instinct is to get out, but sometimes you need to stay in that moment of suffering to see what it has to teach you.” I’m not sure about that.

He says, “When you’re in a moment of suffering, your instinct is to get out, but sometimes you need to stay in that moment of suffering to see what it has to teach you.”我对此不太确定。

I would get out.

我会出去。

But it’s an idea.

但这是一个想法。

From a cultural conservative perspective, that would be fairly pessimistic, looking at economic development in places that do not have a long history of statehood.

From a cultural conservative perspective, that would be fairly pessimistic, looking at economic development in places that do not have a long history of statehood.

I was wondering if you could discuss that a little bit.

我想知道你是否可以讨论一下这个问题。

Then, to what extent it might be possible to sort of create sustainable, formal institutions in these places that do not have a long history of them, a la Paul Romer’s charter cities.

然后，在这些没有悠久历史的地方（如保罗·罗默的特许城市），在多大程度上有可能建立可持续的、正式的机构。

I think we’ve learned this at great national cost.

我认为我们付出了巨大的国家代价才学到了这一点。

It’s very hard to impose institutions that require high trust onto societies that have low trust.

将需要高信任度的制度强加给信任度低的社会是非常困难的。

I covered the Soviet Union and the decline of the Soviet Union and the emergence of Russia.

我报道了苏联以及苏联的衰落和俄罗斯的崛起。

We sent teams of economists with privatization plans, and we emphasized the economic institutions they would need to thrive.

我们派出经济学家团队提出私有化计划，并强调他们蓬勃发展所需的经济制度。

But we didn’t appreciate the depth of lack of social trust.

但我们没有意识到社会信任缺失的严重程度。

So I think we sort of got that wrong and did a great disservice.

所以我认为我们犯了一个错误并且造成了很大的伤害。

If you don’t take that — especially levels of social trust — into account, it’s very hard to impose one society’s institutions onto another, which is why I’ve always been a little impatient with “Should we be more like Denmark?” I’m not sure we have that choice.

如果你不考虑到这一点——尤其是社会信任水平，就很难将一个社会的制度强加给另一个社会，这就是为什么我总是对“我们应该更像丹麦吗？”这个问题有点不耐烦。 I’m not sure we have that choice.

You can decide to join the Marine Corps, and then the Marine Corps will influence you in a zillion ways, most of which are unconscious.

你可以决定加入海军陆战队，然后海军陆战队将以无数的方式影响你，其中大部分是无意识的。

You can decide to get married, and then that will affect you in unconscious ways.

你可以决定结婚，然后这会在不知不觉中影响你。

You can decide what environment to put yourself into, and then the environmental influences will be very determinative.

你可以决定把自己置于什么样的环境中，然后环境的影响就非常具有决定性。

But making that decision of how to plant yourself — that to me, strikes me as a free will decision.

但做出如何种植自己的决定——对我来说，这是一个自由意志的决定。

And finally, I fall back on the old saw — I forget who said this first — that everything in the philosophical literature makes free will seem impossible, and everything about lived experience makes it seem inevitable.

最后，我又回到了那句老话——“我忘记是谁先说这句话了”——哲学文献中的一切都让自由意志看起来不可能，而生活经验的一切都让它看起来不可避免。

Not even all of Canada, just part of Canada, the weaker part.

甚至不是整个加拿大，只是加拿大的一部分，较弱的部分。

I do think there are times where cultures have turned around and without war.

我确实认为有时文化会发生转变，但没有战争。

The two examples that I know most about are Britain between 1830 and 1848 and America, as I mentioned, between 1890 and 1910, say.

我最了解的两个例子是 1830 年至 1848 年的英国和我提到的 1890 年至 1910 年的美国。

In both those cases, there was a religious revival first, which made everybody much more communal.

在这两种情况下，首先出现了宗教复兴，这使得每个人都更加社区化。

Then there was a civic revival, which I described, and then there was a political revival.

然后是我所描述的公民复兴，然后是政治复兴。

It seems to me we’re not going in that order.

It seems to me we’re not going in that order.

I think we are genuinely having a civic revival.

我认为我们正在真正实现公民复兴。

I don’t see, despite what I said earlier, not really a lot of evidence of a religious revival.

尽管我之前说过，但我并没有看到太多宗教复兴的证据。

A lot of upsurge of institutions and responses.

A lot of upsurge of institutions and responses.

I’m hoping that’ll lead to a political revival down the road.

我希望这会带来政治复兴。

One of the things that 1950s culture .

One of the things that 1950s culture .

.

。

.

。

And I’ve got Jonathan Sacks on my mind, but I think he has a good metaphor.

我想到了乔纳森·萨克斯，但我认为他有一个很好的比喻。

The problem with that 1950s culture was that — he calls it a guest house culture.

20 世纪 50 年代文化的问题在于——他称之为宾馆文化。

The Protestant establishment owned the country, and everybody else was just guests in it.

新教势力拥有这个国家，其他人都只是其中的客人。

And if you behaved according to the cult of the laws of the Protestant establishment, they would let you in.

如果你的行为符合新教机构的法律崇拜，他们就会让你进来。

But there wasn’t really ownership, and that became .

但并没有真正的所有权，这就变成了。

.

。

.

。

The reason there were so many tight communities in Chicago, say, in African American neighborhoods, Italian neighborhoods, Polish neighborhoods is because those people did not have access to Michigan Avenue.

芝加哥之所以有如此多的紧密社区，例如非裔美国人社区、意大利社区、波兰社区，是因为这些人无法进入密歇根大道。

The community was in part caused by lack of opportunity.

社区的部分原因是缺乏机会。

Sacks says we smashed that up for good reason because we didn’t want to live in somebody else’s house.

萨克斯说我们把它砸碎是有充分理由的，因为我们不想住在别人的房子里。

But then we went to what he calls the hotel culture, where we’ve all got a private room.

但后来我们进入了他所说的酒店文化，在那里我们都有一个私人房间。

We don’t really invest in the building; we don’t really know our neighbors.

We don’t really invest in the building;我们并不真正了解我们的邻居。

And we’re seeing the aftereffects of that, too.

我们也看到了其后果。

I have tremendous faith in humans’ ability to solve their problems.

我对人类解决问题的能力充满信心。

So I assume we’ll find a way to create a much more communal organization, but we’re not going to go back to the 1950s.

所以我认为我们会找到一种方法来创建一个更加社区化的组织，但我们不会回到 20 世纪 50 年代。

That gives me hope.

这给了我希望。

There has to be some other way to solve the problem for long attention span.

必须有其他方法来解决长时间注意力集中的问题。

And the one thing I’d love to do is demote how we think about high tech and especially social media.

我想做的一件事就是降低我们对高科技，尤其是社交媒体的看法。

I think our smartphones do a lot of great stuff for me.

我认为我们的智能手机为我做了很多很棒的事情。

I can find my way anywhere in the world now because of my smartphone.

有了智能手机，我现在可以在世界任何地方找到路。

So that’s a great tool, but I don’t expect it to lead to a new consciousness or solve my emotional problems.

所以这是一个很好的工具，但我不指望它能带来新的意识或解决我的情感问题。

My car is a great tool, the wheel is a great tool, electricity a great tool I don’t expect to spiritually deliver the society.

我的汽车是一个伟大的工具，车轮是一个伟大的工具，电力是一个伟大的工具，我不期望在精神上拯救社会。

But somehow we got in the business of expecting tech to deliver a new consciousness and a new social order.

但不知何故，我们开始期待科技能够带来新的意识和新的社会秩序。

That’s just asking too much of a tool.

That’s just asking too much of a tool.

And so I doubt it’s going to come through some technology.

所以我怀疑它是否会通过某些技术来实现。

My car is a great tool, the wheel is a great tool, electricity a great tool — but I don’t expect them spiritually deliver the society.

我的汽车是一个伟大的工具，车轮是一个伟大的工具，电力是一个伟大的工具——但我不指望它们在精神上拯救社会。

But somehow we got in the business of expecting tech to deliver a new consciousness and a new social order.

但不知何故，我们开始期待科技能够带来新的意识和新的社会秩序。

That’s just asking too much of a tool.

这对工具的要求太高了。

I’m wondering how you square that with being a Reaganite.

我想知道你如何将这一点与里根派联系起来。

It seems to me that in order to run a successful foreign policy of the sort that America wants to run that you have to know quite a lot about the world, and how can you know enough?

在我看来，为了执行美国想要执行的那种成功的外交政策，你必须对世界有很多了解，你怎么能知道得足够多呢？

Also having an ability to think in moral terms.

还有从道德角度思考的能力。

To me, Communism — he said evil empire — to me, Communism really was an evil system that led to untold human misery.

对我来说，共产主义——“他说邪恶帝国”——对我来说，共产主义确实是一个邪恶的制度，给人类带来了无尽的苦难。

So basing one’s intuitions on those things seems to me the right thing to do.

因此，在我看来，将直觉建立在这些事情上是正确的做法。

Now the question then becomes, how much can you remake the rest of humanity?

现在的问题是，你能在多大程度上重塑人类的其他部分？

And Reagan was pretty careful about how he committed troops and tried to remake other nations.

里根对于派遣军队并试图重塑其他国家的方式非常谨慎。

George W.

乔治·W.

Bush was less careful.

布什则不太谨慎。

And I remember I wrote a column in the run-up to the Iraq War, which I supported, how would Michael Oakeshott think about this problem?

我记得我在伊拉克战争前夕写过一篇专栏，我对此表示支持，迈克尔·奥克肖特会如何看待这个问题？

And Oakeshott is sort of Burke-ian, though he denied it, but same sort of cultural style.

奥克肖特有点像伯克派，虽然他否认这一点，但文化风格是一样的。

Oakeshott would be like, “You’re going to screw this up.

奥克肖特会说，“你会把事情搞砸的。

You do not understand that culture.”

你不了解那种文化。”

I wrote 700 words on why Michael Oakeshott would really oppose the Iraq War, and that any conservative should, and then, unfortunately, I wrote another 150 on why Oakeshott was wrong, and if I could take back that 150, I probably would.

我写了 700 字来解释为什么迈克尔·奥克肖特会真正反对伊拉克战争，并且任何保守派都应该这样做，然后，不幸的是，我又写了 150 字来解释为什么奥克肖特是错误的，如果我能收回那 150 个字，我可能会收回。

But there’s a balance between .

但两者之间有一个平衡。

.

。

.

。

You can’t be paralyzed by your modesty in world affairs.

你不能因为在世界事务中的谦虚而瘫痪。

You have to act.

你必须采取行动。

And to me, to not try to plan too much but just sort of be a gentle force for democracy and human rights, that strikes me as the right posture, just constantly pushing for these things, and then hoping something good happens.

对我来说，不要试图计划太多，而只是成为民主和人权的温和力量，这对我来说是正确的姿态，不断推动这些事情，然后希望有好事发生。

You can’t tell what effects you’re going to have, but if you push for the right things that are your values and you have faith in them, then that strikes me as the right posture.

你无法知道你会产生什么影响，但如果你推动正确的事情，即你的价值观，并且你对它们有信心，那么我认为这是正确的态度。

We’ve had two presidencies in a row who didn’t do that.

我们连续两任总统都没有这样做。

Obama, it was interesting.

奥巴马，这很有趣。

Obama never saw a problem he didn’t want to transcend, except on foreign policy.

除了外交政策之外，奥巴马从来没有遇到过他不想解决的问题。

He always thought you messed up by doing too much, not by doing too little.

他总是认为你搞砸了是因为做得太多，而不是做得太少。

That was his bias.

那是他的偏见。

Never do too much.

永远不要做太多。

And as a result, I think he did too little.

结果我觉得他做得太少了。

Then Donald Trump doesn’t seem to believe in democracy promotion at all.

那么唐纳德·特朗普似乎根本不相信民主促进。

He has a more law-of-the-jungle mentality about foreign policy.

他对外交政策抱有一种更丛林法则的心态。

So I still stick to Reaganism, that basic leaning toward democracy and dignity and progress.

所以我仍然坚持里根主义，即对民主、尊严和进步的基本倾向。

And I’m just curious, what is your sense about how do we move forward so that this Trump voter is better understood, is indeed heard, if that’s indeed what’s being sought after, and that the tangible results can be seen and felt and ultimately changed, the dynamic here that’s created such dysfunction?

And I’m just curious, what is your sense about how do we move forward so that this Trump voter is better understood, is indeed heard, if that’s indeed what’s being sought after, and that the tangible results can be seen and felt and ultimately changed, the dynamic here that’s created such dysfunction?

And that they generally do argue, and I’ve had it said many times to me, that “You just can’t think there’s such thing as diversity and community at the same time, that these two sit in much greater tension than you’re willing to acknowledge.

And that they generally do argue, and I’ve had it said many times to me, that “You just can’t think there’s such thing as diversity and community at the same time, that these two sit in much greater tension than you’re willing to acknowledge.

I’m willing to face the reality that diverse societies tend to be attenuated societies with low social trust.

我愿意面对现实，多元化的社会往往是社会信任度较低的弱化社会。

I’m willing to adopt the policies that are consistent with that, and you’re not.”

我愿意采取与此一致的政策，但你不愿意。”

I disagree with that argument, but it’s not an argument without merit.

我不同意这个论点，但这并不是没有根据的论点。

So the young voters I’ve interviewed or have known personally, they’ve got some philosophical background to what they’re thinking.

因此，我采访过或私下认识的年轻选民，他们对自己的想法有一定的哲学背景。

I will say, I spoke to Stewart Brand for a column I wrote recently.

我会说，我最近写的一篇专栏与斯图尔特·布兰德进行了交谈。

He’s one of these Zeligs of world history, where whatever trend is hot at the moment, he’s there, whether it’s hippies or Steve Jobs or the Homebrew Computer Club.

He’s one of these Zeligs of world history, where whatever trend is hot at the moment, he’s there, whether it’s hippies or Steve Jobs or the Homebrew Computer Club.

He urged me, at my amazingly young age compared to him, to focus on biotech.

他敦促我专注于生物技术，因为我比他年轻得惊人。

He said, “If I were young, that’s where I’d be.

他说：“如果我还年轻，我就会在那里。

I’d just stick with biotech.” If that’s true for any young American, maybe it’s true for any young Chinese.

我只会坚持生物技术。”如果这对任何一个美国年轻人都是如此，那么对于任何一个中国年轻人来说也许也是如此。

I don’t really know China.

我实在不了解中国。

There was a guy named Seymour Martin Lipset who wrote a book on American exceptionalism and all these ways America is just an outlier.

有一个叫西摩·马丁·利普塞特的人写了一本关于美国例外论的书，在所有这些方面，美国只是一个局外人。

For example, if you ask people, are you in control of your own life or is it mostly luck?

例如，如果你问别人，你的生活是你能掌控的还是主要是运气？

We’re a super outlier in believing we control our own lives.

我们是一个超级异类，相信我们可以控制自己的生活。

Where did that come from?

那是从哪里来的？

And there was a great history of American literature going back to the historians of the 19th century, but especially in the 1950s, that addressed this question.

And there was a great history of American literature going back to the historians of the 19th century, but especially in the 1950s, that addressed this question.

My short answer to it is that people came — Europeans, at least — came to these shores, 1600s.

我对此的简短回答是，人们（至少是欧洲人）在 1600 年代来到了这些海岸。

Saw flocks of geese that were .

看到了成群的鹅。

.

。

.

。

45 minutes, it took them that long to take off.

45分钟，他们花了这么长时间才起飞。

Forests stretching on forever.

森林绵延不绝。

They just saw material abundance, and they had two thoughts.

他们刚刚看到物质的丰富，心里就有了两个想法。

One was that God’s plan for humanity would be completed here.

一是上帝对人类的计划将在这里完成。

And the second is, they’d get really rich in the process.

第二是，他们会在这个过程中变得非常富有。

And so, that moral materialism that drives the country.

因此，推动国家发展的是道德唯物主义。

And there’s a great writer who I really became beholden to in writing that book, named Sacvan Bercovitch, who died probably about five years ago, who wrote about the Puritan influence on American society.

And there’s a great writer who I really became beholden to in writing that book, named Sacvan Bercovitch, who died probably about five years ago, who wrote about the Puritan influence on American society.

And it was that two oars rowing for heaven, one very materialistic, one super spiritual.

那是两支划向天堂的桨，一支非常物质，一支超精神。

And I do think that long cultural consistency in America continues to shape us in odd ways.

我确实认为美国长期的文化一致性继续以奇怪的方式塑造着我们。

I screwed up that book.

我把那本书搞砸了。

In the middle of writing that book I came across a Jacques Barzun quote that every book is possible to write except one trying to define the spirit of America.

In the middle of writing that book I came across a Jacques Barzun quote that every book is possible to write except one trying to define the spirit of America.

I was like three years into the project.

我进入这个项目已经三年了。

I was, “Oh damn, he’s right.”

我当时想，“天哪，他是对的。”

So the book, in some ways, was a failure and a sort of disorganized, hodgepodge mess.

因此，从某些方面来说，这本书是失败的，是一种杂乱无章的大杂烩。

But I go back to it more than any other book just because there’s valuable quotes in there and valuable stuff in there.

但我比任何其他书都更频繁地回顾这本书，只是因为里面有有价值的引述和有价值的东西。

Tyler’s ethnic dining guide, which for listeners is a guide to ethnic restaurants in, most, all around the DC area.

泰勒的民族餐饮指南，为听众提供了华盛顿地区大部分民族餐厅的指南。

Basically, you want some Mozambican restaurant, and there’s some strip mall out in Seven Corners or Bailey’s Crossroads where the greatest Mozambique restaurant in the Western hemisphere is located.

Basically, you want some Mozambican restaurant, and there’s some strip mall out in Seven Corners or Bailey’s Crossroads where the greatest Mozambique restaurant in the Western hemisphere is located.

You go in there, and you sit down, and there’s all these Mozambicans sitting around, and they come up to you, and they say, “I didn’t even know you were from Mozambique, what are you doing here?”

You go in there, and you sit down, and there’s all these Mozambicans sitting around, and they come up to you, and they say, “I didn’t even know you were from Mozambique, what are you doing here?”

So it’s not only been an education in cuisine, but an education in New America, what the future of America is going to be like and is like.

因此，这不仅是烹饪方面的教育，也是新美国的教育，即美国的未来将会是什么样子。

I’ve spent many weekends with that ethnic dining guide, finding one restaurant after another that you would never have known because they look like all the other Salvadorian restaurants in the strip malls, but a couple of them happen to be really sensational.

I’ve spent many weekends with that ethnic dining guide, finding one restaurant after another that you would never have known because they look like all the other Salvadorian restaurants in the strip malls, but a couple of them happen to be really sensational.

I think it’s much less likely that they’ll take the Senate, just the way the geography works and because of the candidates Republicans have chosen.

I think it’s much less likely that they’ll take the Senate, just the way the geography works and because of the candidates Republicans have chosen.

As for Trump approval, I have to say a number of things.

至于特朗普的认可，我不得不说很多话。

One, I think it’s appalling.

一，我认为这令人震惊。

As a cultural determinist, I pay a lot of attention to norms and social fabric, and I think he’s pretty good at making friend-enemy distinctions and poking a red-hot wound into every divide we have in this country and making it worse.

As a cultural determinist, I pay a lot of attention to norms and social fabric, and I think he’s pretty good at making friend-enemy distinctions and poking a red-hot wound into every divide we have in this country and making it worse.

I place a high value on social norms and cultures.

我高度重视社会规范和文化。

I have to say, for my friends who are Trump supporters, they say, “Yeah, I don’t really pay attention to that stuff.

我不得不说，对于我的特朗普支持者朋友来说，他们说：“是的，我真的不太关注那些东西。

I just look at the economy.

我只看经济。

I look at some of the things I like that he’s done.”

我看看他所做的一些我喜欢的事情。”

And there are some things, a lot of things I like that he’s done.

有一些事情，很多事情我喜欢他所做的。

The economy has not tanked, and I expected support to wane as the scandals mounted — it has not waned at all.

经济并没有衰退，而且我预计随着丑闻的增多，支持率会减弱——它根本没有减弱。

I happen to support the move — we’re speaking on the day they moved the embassy, our embassy in Israel, to Jerusalem.

我碰巧支持这一举动——我们是在他们将大使馆（我们驻以色列大使馆）迁至耶路撒冷的那天发表讲话的。

I happen to think that was the right move.

我碰巧认为这是正确的举动。

Jerusalem is clearly the capital of Israel, so we should recognize reality.

耶路撒冷显然是以色列的首都，所以我们应该认清现实。

The tax cut, kind of linked to something.

减税，有点与某些事情有关。

I was against it because it seemed to me not the tax reform I always dreamed of, and it seemed to me a way to basically take money out of blue pockets and put it into red pockets, and I didn’t want to see our tax system turned into a tribal weapon.

我反对它，因为在我看来，这并不是我一直梦想的税收改革，而且在我看来，这基本上是一种将钱从蓝口袋里拿出来放进红口袋的方法，我不想看到我们的税收制度变成部落武器。

I didn’t think corporate tax cuts were the way to increase growth, but you linked to a study — I don’t know if you’re allowed to talk in these things, but at least a story in Bloomberg that suggested that since the corporate tax cuts, that capital expenditures have risen 37 percent, and stock buybacks have only risen 16 percent, which suggests that the corporate rate cuts are producing more economic activities than a lot of economists suggested they would.

我不认为企业减税是促进增长的方法，但你提到了一项研究 —— 我不知道是否允许你谈论这些事情，但至少彭博社的一篇报道表明，自企业减税以来，资本支出增加了 37%，而股票回购只增加了 16%，这表明企业降息所产生的经济活动比许多经济学家认为的要多。

So I’m open to the fact that a lot of Trump policies may have surprisingly beneficial effects, but it’ll be very hard to persuade me they’re good enough to justify the harm he’s doing to our democracy.

因此，我对这样一个事实持开放态度：特朗普的许多政策可能会产生令人惊讶的有益效果，但很难说服我，这些政策足以证明他对我们民主造成的伤害是合理的。