Dave Baszucki on Roblox, Teen Entrepreneurs, and the Future of Play (Ep. 280)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I am here chatting with David Baszucki, who is co-founder and CEO of Roblox, which is one of the world’s largest and fastest-growing games platforms.
今天我在这里与 Roblox 的联合创始人兼首席执行官 David Baszucki 聊天，Roblox 是世界上最大、增长最快的游戏平台之一。
David, welcome.
大卫，欢迎。
Tyler, thanks for having me on.
泰勒，谢谢你邀请我参加。
It’s great to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Roblox, what is it you all do to help create teenage millionaires?
Roblox，你们都做了什么来帮助创造青少年百万富翁？
The focus isn’t creating teenage millionaires, and at the same time, there are some teenage millionaires.
重点不是创造青少年百万富翁，但与此同时，也有一些青少年百万富翁。
Roblox was founded really with the vision of creating a platform where people could play and connect, where all of the content, all of the games, all of the experiences, whether it’s hide and go seek or a fashion game or growing a garden, is 100 percent created by the user community.
Roblox 成立的真正愿景是创建一个人们可以玩耍和交流的平台，其中所有的内容、所有的游戏、所有的体验，无论是捉迷藏、时尚游戏还是种植花园，都是 100% 由用户社区创建的。
You could call it self-service, you could call it UGC.
你可以称之为自助服务，也可以称之为 UGC。
What’s really interesting about UGC content when creators and the community are making content is they can come up with all kinds of interesting and novel ways for people to play together.
当创作者和社区制作内容时，UGC 内容真正有趣的是他们可以想出各种有趣和新颖的方式供人们一起玩。
We started with two people a while ago, but year by year, Roblox has emerged to have millions of people every day playing together.
不久前我们刚开始只有两个人，但随着时间的推移，Roblox 已经每天有数百万人一起玩。
As you correctly noted, some of those creators now who build the content on Roblox have become millionaires.
正如您正确指出的那样，现在在 Roblox 上构建内容的一些创作者已经成为百万富翁。
They’ve evolved from hobbyists to small studios to larger studios.
他们已经从业余爱好者发展到小型工作室再到更大的工作室。
We have now a lot of people all around the world really making a living building the content for the millions of players on the platform.
现在，世界各地有很多人真正靠为平台上数百万玩家构建内容谋生。
They get a share of your revenue for a game they build.
他们从您制作的游戏中获得收入分成。
That’s exactly right.
完全正确。
Your revenue comes from people paying to put their games on your platform, right?
您的收入来自于人们付费将游戏放到您的平台上，对吗？
The revenue has evolved in stages, and it’s a fun economic story, really, the progression of how the Roblox economy has evolved.
收入是分阶段发展的，这是一个有趣的经济故事，实际上是 Roblox 经济发展的进展。
The first fun thing to think about is the vast majority of the players on our platform are not spending any money.
首先要考虑的有趣的事情是我们平台上的绝大多数玩家都没有花钱。
They’re coming, they’re playing for free, they’re having great experiences with their friend.
他们来了，他们免费玩游戏，他们和朋友一起享受了美好的经历。
Roblox runs not just on UGC content or content created by all of these millions of creators, but literally a virtual economy with a currency called Robux, a wide range of games and experiences, where, for those users who choose to, they can spend Robux in the experience.
Roblox 不仅运行在 UGC 内容或数以百万计的创作者创建的内容上，而且运行在一个名为 Robux 的虚拟经济体上，提供广泛的游戏和体验，对于那些选择的用户来说，他们可以在体验中使用 Robux。
When they spend Robux in the experience, that creator can then cash those Robux out for real money.
当他们在体验中花费 Robux 时，创作者就可以将这些 Robux 兑现为真钱。
It’s a bit of a virtuous economy cycle.
这是一个良性的经济循环。
The creators are extremely creative in how they build their economies.
创造者在建设经济方面极具创造力。
They want all of their creations to be fun for everyone who’s playing for free, which is the vast majority of everyone.
他们希望他们的所有作品都能让所有免费游戏的人（绝大多数人）感到有趣。
At the same time, they do want to make a living and fund jobs and fund their studios, so they come up with amazingly creative ways to do it.
与此同时，他们确实想谋生，为工作提供资金，为他们的工作室提供资金，所以他们想出了令人惊叹的创意方法来做到这一点。
Very early on, in the game called Work at a Pizza Place, you could buy a motor scooter.
很早以前，在名为“在披萨店工作”的游戏中，您可以购买一辆摩托车。
If you wanted to get around the world more quickly, you could use some Robux, buy a motor scooter, and get around more quickly.
如果您想更快地环游世界，您可以使用一些 Robux，购买一辆小型摩托车，然后更快地环游世界。
Now we just see a vast array of incredibly innovative ways for creators to sell things within their experience.
现在我们看到了创作者在他们的经验中销售产品的大量令人难以置信的创新方式。
Is the future of your revenue basically going to be ads?
您未来的收入主要是广告吗？
No.
不。
You have ads as a source of revenue, right?
您有广告作为收入来源，对吧？
It’s a relatively small source of our revenue right now.
目前，这是我们收入的一个相对较小的来源。
It’s so small that, on our earnings call, we don’t call it out.
它是如此之小，以至于在我们的财报电话会议上，我们没有指出它。
The vast majority of our revenue, which is growing very rapidly, is players purchasing Robux.
我们收入的绝大部分来自购买 Robux 的玩家，并且增长非常迅速。
They can buy them with a gift card.
他们可以用礼品卡购买。
They can buy them on their iPhone.
他们可以在 iPhone 上购买。
They can buy them in a store.
他们可以在商店购买。
They can go to a website to buy these Robux.
他们可以去网站购买这些 Robux。
Then, using them in experiences created by our creators, if they so choose.
然后，如果我们的创造者愿意的话，将它们用于我们创造的体验中。
Once again, this is a subset of our users who have decided to go buy that.
再一次，这是我们决定购买该产品的用户的一部分。
By and large, the majority of Roblox is running on a virtual economy.
总的来说，Roblox 的大部分运行在虚拟经济上。
Given the incredible number of eyeballs you have, why can’t you make really a lot of money selling ads?
鉴于您拥有令人难以置信的眼球数量，为什么您不能通过销售广告赚到很多钱呢？
I feel we have to be thoughtful about what the future of advertising is in a platform like Roblox.
我觉得我们必须思考像 Roblox 这样的平台上广告的未来是什么。
We have chosen, unlike maybe other platforms, for example, short-form video or other video platforms, to not put advertising in front of every user.
与其他平台（例如短视频或其他视频平台）不同，我们选择不在每个用户面前投放广告。
We actually did an experiment very early in our founding, where we experimented with something called pre-roll advertising, where everyone who played a Roblox game got a little short video.
实际上，我们在成立之初就进行了一项实验，我们尝试了一种称为前置广告的方法，每个玩 Roblox 游戏的人都会收到一段简短的视频。
We actually decided to pull it out.
我们实际上决定把它拉出来。
We decided to pull it out because we really wanted to focus on the fun and the user experience.
我们决定取消它，因为我们真的想专注于乐趣和用户体验。
By and large, our virtual economy has grown so well that we haven’t been compelled to really ever consider it.
总的来说，我们的虚拟经济发展得如此之好，以至于我们没有被迫真正考虑它。
The two areas where we’re looking at advertising, the first is a lot of our creators who make a new creation would like to boost and get more people to visit that place.
我们正在考虑广告的两个领域，第一个是我们的许多创作者做出新的创作，希望推动并让更多的人参观那个地方。
There’s a very common mechanic in the gaming space where people go and buy traffic.
在游戏领域有一个非常常见的机制，人们会去购买流量。
I want more visitors to test my game.
我希望更多的访客来测试我的游戏。
We do allow creators to purchase what we would call a sponsored tile to get some new visitors and experiment on their game.
我们确实允许创作者购买我们所说的赞助图块，以吸引一些新访问者并尝试他们的游戏。
Actually, there’s a fun story because that’s arguably how Roblox got started.
事实上，有一个有趣的故事，因为这可以说是 Roblox 的起源。
Second, there’s a subset of creators who, in addition to virtual currency, we are letting experiment when they place it for certain types of ads.
其次，还有一部分创作者，除了虚拟货币之外，我们还在尝试将其用于某些类型的广告。
By and large, once again, we have such a strong virtual economy that that’s really been the primary revenue stream for the company.
总的来说，我们再次拥有如此强大的虚拟经济，这确实是公司的主要收入来源。
Say the 15-year-old millionaires that are created with the help of Roblox, how often do you meet them?
假设在 Roblox 的帮助下创造出 15 岁的百万富翁，您多久会见到他们一次？
A lot.
很多。
What are they like?
他们是什么样的人？
Some of the most brilliant, creative people you’d ever see, really.
他们是你见过的最聪明、最有创造力的人，真的。
It’s a pleasure and a great responsibility to meet a lot of them, not just at our developer conference.
能够见到他们中的很多人，不仅仅是在我们的开发者大会上，我感到很高兴，也肩负着巨大的责任。
We have a developer conference once a year.
我们每年举办一次开发者大会。
Over 1,000 of them come, and we hang out with all of them.
他们来了 1,000 多人，我们和他们所有人一起出去玩。
We’re constantly having groups of them come and visit.
我们不断有他们成群结队地来参观。
What’s been really fascinating to me, some of them are 15, some of them are 19, some are 23, some are 30, some are 40, but the collective creativity of many of our creators rivals what you might experience when you’re interviewing some public company CEOs.
让我着迷的是，他们有的 15 岁，有的 19 岁，有的 23 岁，有的 30 岁，有的 40 岁，但我们许多创作者的集体创造力可以与你采访一些上市公司首席执行官时所体验到的相媲美。
The creative types of things they think up, how they think about the games they’re building, is really inspirational.
他们想到的创意类型，以及他们对自己正在制作的游戏的看法，都非常鼓舞人心。
Where do they tend to come from geographically?
从地理上来说，他们往往来自哪里？
What’s the overrepresented area?
比例过高的区域是什么？
Canada?
加拿大？
The funny thing about Roblox is there’s no overrepresented area.
Roblox 的有趣之处在于没有一个比例过高的区域。
It’s not evenly distributed, right?
它分布不均匀，对吗？
We have creators in Argentina, in Brazil, in South Korea, in Japan, in the US, in Europe.
我们在阿根廷、巴西、韩国、日本、美国和欧洲都有创作者。
What we typically find is those creators come from being prior Roblox players.
我们通常发现这些创作者来自 Roblox 之前的玩家。
In a way, if we had to say, is there over- or underrepresentation, I would venture to say it’s somewhat proportional to where we find Roblox players.
在某种程度上，如果我们不得不说，是否存在代表性过高或不足的情况，我敢说这与我们发现 Roblox 玩家的位置成正比。
Right now, as Roblox goes over 100 million daily active users, we’re in pretty much most of the countries, and that is spawning creators in many of those countries.
目前，Roblox 的每日活跃用户超过 1 亿，我们几乎遍布大多数国家/地区，这在许多国家/地区催生了创作者。
If anything, in those countries where the cost of living might be lower, so not the United States, a creator is earning in the global economy on Roblox, whether they’re in the US or some other country, it can actually be easier to find your lifestyle as a full-time creator in some other countries.
如果有的话，在那些生活成本可能较低的国家（而不是美国），创作者通过 Roblox 在全球经济中赚取收入，无论他们是在美国还是其他国家，实际上在其他一些国家更容易找到作为全职创作者的生活方式。
Reed Hastings of Netflix, he once said famously something like, “The main competitor to Netflix is sleep.” What’s the main competitor to Roblox?
Netflix 的里德·黑斯廷斯 (Reed Hastings) 曾说过一句著名的话，“Netflix 的主要竞争对手是睡眠。” Roblox 的主要竞争对手是什么？
On competition
关于竞争
I would say that what we sometimes think about is the main competitor to Roblox is our own ability to execute and build on our vision.
我想说的是，我们有时会想到 Roblox 的主要竞争对手是我们自己执行和构建我们的愿景的能力。
The reason I say that is the global gaming market for content, for people building games and playing games, is about a $200 billion market.
我这么说的原因是，对于内容、开发游戏和玩游戏的人来说，全球游戏市场大约有 2000 亿美元的市场。
Right now, coming off last year and going into next year, we’re in the $7 billion of projected revenue bookings this year.
目前，从去年到明年，我们今年的预计收入预订将达到 70 亿美元。
If you run $7 billion divided by $200 billion, that’s in the 3.5 percent to going on 4 percent of the global gaming market.
如果将 70 亿美元除以 2000 亿美元，则占全球游戏市场的 3.5% 到 4%。
We believe Roblox is somewhat unique in that we still have creators making games, we still have people playing them, but we believe the Roblox platform and the way we integrate everything from the tooling to the economy, to the safety and civility system, to the ability for creators to build a gamer experience one time, have it run on any device, have it autotranslate into any language is a real advantage to many up-and-coming creators.
我们相信 Roblox 的独特之处在于，我们仍然有创作者制作游戏，仍然有人在玩游戏，但我们相信 Roblox 平台以及我们整合一切的方式，从工具到经济，到安全和文明系统，再到创作者一次构建游戏玩家体验的能力，让它在任何设备上运行，让它自动翻译成任何语言，对许多崭露头角的创作者来说是一个真正的优势。
We’re really building this platform, and we’ve said publicly we’d like to get to 10 percent of that global gaming content market and beyond in the US.
我们确实正在构建这个平台，并且我们已经公开表示，我们希望获得全球游戏内容市场 10% 的份额，甚至超过美国市场的份额。
In a way, we’re competing with our own ability to build our platform at increasing levels of quality, to ship things more quickly we know our creators want.
在某种程度上，我们正在与自己的能力竞争，以不断提高的质量水平构建我们的平台，更快地交付我们知道我们的创作者想要的东西。
That’s how we think about it.
我们就是这么想的。
Say someone knows your platform and at a given moment decides not to play a Roblox game, what are they probably doing instead?
假设有人了解您的平台，并且在某个特定时刻决定不玩 Roblox 游戏，那么他们可能会做什么？
Sleeping?
睡眠？
Their homework?
他们的作业？
They’re probably doing a podcast with Tyler.
他们可能正在和泰勒一起制作播客。
I’m not playing right now.
我现在没在玩。
We all know what the rest of the world is other than Roblox.
我们都知道除了 Roblox 之外世界其他地方是什么。
There is a big world out there.
外面有一个很大的世界。
What we are focused on is moving to 10 percent and beyond of the global gaming market on our platform.
我们的重点是在我们的平台上占据全球游戏市场的 10% 甚至更高。
That’s plenty of room to focus on.
有足够的空间值得关注。
We have a very small portion of a very big market.
我们在一个非常大的市场中只占很小的一部分。
We’re announcing really the future of how creators can build faster with AI.
我们真正宣布了未来创作者如何利用人工智能更快地进行创作。
We’ve recently shared a vision for multiplayer photorealism that we believe will integrate AI in our current platform.
我们最近分享了多人真实感的愿景，我们相信它将把人工智能集成到我们当前的平台中。
We have a lot to focus on right now in the gaming market.
目前，我们在游戏市场上有很多值得关注的事情。
If you beat out Fortnite, what does that scenario look like?
如果你打败了《堡垒之夜》，那场景会是什么样子？
Fortnite’s a wonderful product.
《堡垒之夜》是一款很棒的产品。
I’m not going to comment on whether we beat them or not.
我不会评论我们是否击败了他们。
The stats are fully available for the public to go and browse our concurrent users and how many people are on the platform.
这些统计数据完全可供公众浏览我们的并发用户以及平台上的人数。
They’re a wonderful creative team as well.
他们也是一支出色的创意团队。
We’re very different platforms.
我们是非常不同的平台。
I think, for us, it’s not about beating out someone.
我认为，对我们来说，这不是打败某人。
It’s about our bigger vision of how games are created, how we can build this expanding digital economy, and how more types of people can play the games that are on Roblox.
这是关于我们如何创建游戏、如何构建不断扩大的数字经济以及如何让更多类型的人可以玩 Roblox 上的游戏的更大愿景。
On everything apps
在所有应用程序上
Do you think any very successful platform evolves into a kind of everything app where people just use it for social networking, for trading recipes, sometimes even dating, commerce?
您是否认为任何非常成功的平台都会演变成一种万能应用程序，人们只是将其用于社交网络、交易食谱，有时甚至约会、商业？
Is that just inevitable?
这是不可避免的吗？
This is a great conversation topic.
这是一个很棒的话题。
We talk about it all the time.
我们一直在谈论它。
For a while, WeChat was viewed as the everything app: digital finance, messaging, chatting, deep integration with mini-games, a wider range of that.
有一段时间，微信被视为万能应用：数字金融、消息、聊天、与小游戏的深度整合等等。
I think we’ve seen some tension over time, the evolution of some platforms splitting.
我认为随着时间的推移，我们已经看到了一些紧张局势，一些平台分裂的演变。
Facebook and Messenger split.
Facebook 和 Messenger 分道扬镳。
Instagram’s all integrated.
Instagram 已全部集成。
We’ve heard other platforms talk about being the everything app.
我们听说其他平台谈论成为一切应用程序。
We’ve heard X talk about digital finance and chat.
我们听过 X 谈论数字金融和聊天。
I think the jury’s still out.
我认为陪审团还没有定论。
There’s a balance, I believe, from a UX design standpoint, on the cognitive load of how to design an everything app versus the familiarity people have of splitting their cognitive space between this is a chat app, this is a gaming app, this is a short-form video app, and thinking about it that way.
我相信，从用户体验设计的角度来看，如何设计一个一切应用程序的认知负荷与人们在聊天应用程序、这是游戏应用程序、这是短视频应用程序之间划分认知空间的熟悉程度之间存在着平衡，并以这种方式思考。
I feel the jury’s still out on that.
我觉得陪审团对此还没有定论。
I think people are experimenting at that from both sides of the aisle.
我认为两党都在尝试这一点。
Will the public and also policymakers ever be happy enough with something that de facto becomes an everything app?
公众和政策制定者会对事实上成为万能应用程序的东西感到足够满意吗？
When I was a kid, of course, there was no online life.
当然，当我还是个孩子的时候，没有网络生活。
People would go to parks.
人们会去公园。
A lot would happen in parks.
公园里会发生很多事情。
Mostly good things, but occasionally some bad things.
大部分是好事，但偶尔也会有一些坏事。
People back then did not really think to blame the park, per se.
当时的人们并没有真正想到责怪公园本身。
They would blame the wrongdoers.
他们会责怪那些不法之徒。
Now it seems we have this world where there are companies.
现在看来我们已经有了一个有公司的世界。
They’re easily identifiable.
他们很容易被识别。
Arguably, on net, they provide a lot more positive than negative, but they’re always a target because they’re an everything app, and in every everything app, some bad things are going to happen.
可以说，在网络上，它们提供的积极作用远多于消极作用，但它们始终是目标，因为它们是一个一切应用程序，而在每个一切应用程序中，都会发生一些不好的事情。
How does an everything app survive that?
一个包罗万象的应用程序如何生存下来？
I think you’re touching on a whole range of things.
我认为你触及了很多事情。
I think one thing you’re touching on is the expectation in many ways that technology and digital platforms go to their own standard in a way.
我认为你谈到的一件事是，人们在很多方面都期望技术和数字平台在某种程度上达到自己的标准。
In self-driving vehicles, even when a self-driving vehicle is 10 or 20 times statistically fewer crashes per mile, it’s still very much under the scrutiny of the public radar.
在自动驾驶汽车中，即使自动驾驶汽车每英里的事故统计数量减少了 10 到 20 倍，它仍然受到公共雷达的密切关注。
Even if commercial airline transport is X times safer than driving in a car per mile, it can be under public scrutiny.
即使商业航空运输每英里比开车安全 X 倍，它也可能受到公众的监督。
I’m optimistic that, for us, the public scrutiny we get is really integrated in our vision for the platform, which is we’ve said we want to set the world global standard for healthy, safe, age-appropriate digital engagement.
我乐观地认为，对我们来说，公众的监督确实融入了我们对平台的愿景，我们已经说过，我们希望为健康、安全、适合年龄的数字参与制定世界标准。
We think that’s really good for business, actually.
事实上，我们认为这对商业来说真的很有好处。
We’re unique amongst many apps in having people under 13 on the platform and saying we have under 13.
我们在众多应用程序中是独一无二的，因为我们的平台上有 13 岁以下的用户，并且我们说我们有 13 岁以下的用户。
Most apps out there are labeled as 13+, but I think most people know there are a lot of nine, 10, 11, 12-year-olds on most apps that are 13+.
大多数应用程序都标记为 13 岁以上，但我认为大多数人都知道大多数 13 岁以上的应用程序上有很多 9 岁、10 岁、11 岁、12 岁的孩子。
For us, it’s been a huge benefit.
对我们来说，这是一个巨大的好处。
It’s allowed us to lean, literally since we started, into all of the innovations that started with world-class filtering, started with never sharing images, have evolved to AI-based age check, have evolved to segmenting communication.
它让我们能够从一开始就致力于所有的创新，从世界级的过滤开始，从不共享图像开始，发展到基于人工智能的年龄检查，发展到分段通信。
Now that we have all of this working together, even evolved to how we select content for different ages, I would say there’s a different digital standard.
现在我们已经将所有这些都结合在一起，甚至发展到我们如何为不同年龄段选择内容，我想说有一个不同的数字标准。
At the same time, it’s something we don’t shirk away from.
同时，这是我们无法回避的事情。
We welcome the introspection because that’s our commitment and really our responsibility for the platform.
我们欢迎反思，因为这是我们的承诺，也是我们对平台的责任。
Right now, you can only message across fairly narrow age groups.
目前，您只能向相当狭窄的年龄段发送消息。
A 12-year-old can message a 13-year-old, but not, say, message a 19-year-old.
12 岁的孩子可以给 13 岁的孩子发消息，但不能给 19 岁的孩子发消息。
Do I understand that properly?
我的理解正确吗？
That’s correct.
这是正确的。
If you were to call mega platforms any platform with over 100 million daily active users, for example, I believe Roblox is quite unique in either gaming platforms, social networking platforms, social media platforms, in using digital age check to estimate the age of just about everyone, and use that, as you correctly note, for banding communication with people who aren’t known.
例如，如果你将大型平台称为每日活跃用户超过 1 亿的任何平台，我相信 Roblox 在游戏平台、社交网络平台、社交媒体平台上都是相当独特的，它使用数字年龄检查来估计几乎每个人的年龄，并使用它来与陌生人进行交流，正如你正确指出的那样。
I will highlight that as in addition to world-class text filtering, and that is in addition to we don’t allow people to share images, for example, when they’re chatting.
我要强调的是，除了世界一流的文本过滤之外，我们还不允许人们在聊天时共享图像。
Those age bands, it’s like a three-year window, or what’s the restriction?
那些年龄段，就像三年的窗口，或者有什么限制？
They are overlapping.
它们是重叠的。
As you correctly noted, plus or minus a few years, people can chat.
正如您正确指出的那样，几年后，人们就可以聊天了。
Generally, adults are not communicating with young people on our platform unless they happen to be trusted friends in real life and, for certain ages, parentally approved.
一般来说，成年人不会在我们的平台上与年轻人交流，除非他们碰巧是现实生活中值得信赖的朋友，并且在某些年龄段得到父母的认可。
Say, do they have ways of sharing email addresses or text numbers that are maybe encoded, or your software doesn’t pick up, and it becomes a route through which they contact each other anyway?
比如说，他们是否有办法共享可能经过编码的电子邮件地址或文本号码，或者您的软件无法接收，而这却成为他们相互联系的途径？
You’re very wise in thinking like a savvy 15-year-old.
你的思维非常聪明，就像一个精明的 15 岁孩子一样。
One of the things we’ve been working on for many, many years is the savvy 15-year-old who wants to try to break off our platform to maybe another platform where they can share images or share their address, moving to encoding, moving to trying to share a handle on another platform.
我们多年来一直致力于的事情之一是，精明的 15 岁年轻人想要尝试将我们的平台打破到另一个平台，在那里他们可以共享图像或共享他们的地址，转向编码，转向尝试在另一个平台上共享句柄。
These are all things we work very hard at detecting and filtering as part of our industry-leading text filters, in addition to the age banding, and in addition to no image sharing.
这些都是我们非常努力地检测和过滤的内容，作为我们行业领先的文本过滤器的一部分，除了年龄范围之外，除了禁止图像共享之外。
We really focus on trying to keep people on Roblox, so they can’t go to other platforms and do some of this stuff.
我们真正致力于让人们留在 Roblox 上，这样他们就无法去其他平台做一些这样的事情。
How do you think about the following tradeoff?
您如何看待以下权衡？
If you can only message someone in a very close age group, that, of course, is likely to make the system safer.
如果您只能向年龄非常接近的人发送消息，那么当然可能会使系统更安全。
At the same time, there’s an implicit admission that it’s dangerous to be messaging people much older or much younger.
与此同时，人们也隐含地承认，向年长或年轻的人发送信息是危险的。
How do you decide where to put the band?
你如何决定把乐队放在哪里？
Do you worry about the implicit admission that there’s something fraught with the messaging at all?
你是否担心隐含的承认信息中充满了一些东西？
This notion you’re talking about of implicit admission, we face head-on that we have 12 and under on our platform, and we want to work with legislators, with our innovation, to be the best in the world at that.
你所说的隐性承认的概念，我们正面临着我们的平台上有 12 岁及以下的人，我们希望与立法者合作，通过我们的创新，成为世界上最好的。
I’ll dive into that a bit more.
我会更深入地探讨这一点。
We think all of the innovations we’re continuously rolling out are defining what we believe will be the global standard.
我们认为，我们不断推出的所有创新都在定义我们认为将成为全球标准的内容。
We think it’s a lot better to do what we’re doing than just assume we don’t have nine-year-olds on our platform.
我们认为，做我们正在做的事情比假设我们的平台上没有九岁的孩子要好得多。
That is what most apps are doing today without some form of age estimation.
这就是当今大多数应用程序在没有某种形式的年龄估计的情况下所做的事情。
I’m very optimistic.
我很乐观。
What we’re building as far as supporting connection, supporting play, supporting creativity, we’re going in a very good direction here with what we’re defining for our safety and civility standard.
我们正在建设的支持联系、支持游戏、支持创造力的东西，我们正在朝着一个非常好的方向发展，我们正在定义我们的安全和文明标准。
I don’t think there’s any admission in always innovating.
我认为永远创新是没有任何必要的。
On AI language translation
论人工智能语言翻译
How does your AI system translate across so many languages so quickly?
你们的人工智能系统如何如此快速地翻译这么多语言？
It’s as if you got to Claude 4.7 before Claude did, from what I’ve seen.
从我的观察来看，就好像你先于 Claude 到达了 Claude 4.7。
It’s interesting that we’ve seen the evolution of AI systems over the last four to five to six years.
有趣的是，我们在过去四到五到六年里看到了人工智能系统的演变。
Even five or six years ago, before AI wasn’t big and hot in the public sphere, there were early machine learning technologies like BERT and other types of ML filters that we were very early on, adopting both for our text filtering system, for language translation, for monitoring in different languages.
甚至五六年前，在人工智能在公共领域还没有大热之前，就有了早期的机器学习技术，比如 BERT 和其他类型的机器学习过滤器，我们很早就采用了它们，将它们用于我们的文本过滤系统、语言翻译和不同语言的监控。
Many of these systems that are filtering language or translating language don’t need the giant trillion-row LLM to be very effective and to work very, very quickly.
许多过滤语言或翻译语言的系统不需要庞大的万亿行 LLM 来非常有效并且工作得非常非常快。
We innovated very early on in the notion that if I were to make an experience on Roblox and push publish, we would auto-translate that into many languages.
我们很早就创新了这样的想法：如果我要在 Roblox 上获得体验并推送发布，我们会将其自动翻译成多种语言。
We have creators in Japan who are building games in Japanese who are being played in Argentina.
我们在日本有创作者，他们用日语制作游戏，并在阿根廷玩。
We have creators in the US who are building games who are being played in South Korea.
我们在美国有创作者，他们正在制作在韩国玩的游戏。
It creates really this more future-forward vision where, of course, AI can translate languages.
它确实创造了一种更具前瞻性的愿景，当然，人工智能可以翻译语言。
It’s really been part of what we’ve been working on, I would say, not just recently, but for several years.
我想说，这确实是我们一直在努力的一部分，不仅仅是最近，而是几年来。
On token costs
关于代币成本
Let’s say the token costs for what you’re doing would fall by 10 times or even 100 times, which is not crazy over time because they’ve already fallen so much.
假设你正在做的事情的代币成本会下降 10 倍甚至 100 倍，随着时间的推移，这并不疯狂，因为它们已经下降了很多。
What will you be able to do that you cannot economically do now?
有什么是你现在可以做而在经济上做不到的？
We’re right in the middle.
我们就在中间。
For, I think, all of our listeners right now who are curious what our token costs, the exciting place where people are talking about token costs right now is in software development.
我认为，对于我们现在所有好奇我们的代币成本是多少的听众来说，人们现在谈论代币成本的令人兴奋的地方是软件开发。
A listener could think of a token cost as how much money I’m spending every day on Codex or Claude Code or Cursor, or you name it, to help me write my software.
听众可以将代币成本视为我每天在 Codex、Claude Code 或 Cursor（或者你能想到的）上花费多少钱来帮助我编写软件。
There’s a lot of debate right now on the ratio between the cost of people and the cost of tokens.
目前关于人员成本和代币成本之间的比率存在很多争论。
Some companies are probably spending, for every $100 on their people, $1 on tokens.
有些公司可能会在员工身上每花费 100 美元，就在代币上花费 1 美元。
Other companies may be spending $50 in tokens for every $100 of people.
其他公司可能会为每 100 美元的人花费 50 美元的代币。
The most far-reaching people who are looking out there say, “Oh, they might spend more.” I agree with you.
最有影响力的人会说：“哦，他们可能会花更多钱。”我同意你的看法。
Token costs are going to keep coming down and down and down, which means for software, more AI power to help build software.
代币成本将不断下降，这意味着对于软件来说，更多的人工智能能力可以帮助构建软件。
In the gaming space, we have shared that games are more complicated than software.
在游戏领域，我们已经分享过游戏比软件更复杂。
Games have code.
游戏有代码。
They have 3D objects.
他们有 3D 物体。
They have avatars.
他们有化身。
They have what are called NPCs, which are fake players with brains.
他们有所谓的NPC，就是有脑子的假玩家。
They have scenery.
他们有风景。
They have missions and quests.
他们有使命和任务。
What we’ve embarked on is to do for gaming what’s happening in the coding space right now.
我们已经开始做的是对编码领域目前正在发生的事情进行游戏。
Now, because games are very complicated and they have 3D objects and code and all of these things, when AI spins up and starts generating all of these things, you could imagine it using a lot of tokens, maybe.
现在，因为游戏非常复杂，它们有 3D 对象和代码以及所有这些东西，当 AI 旋转并开始生成所有这些东西时，你可以想象它可能使用大量代币。
The more tokens fall in price, and the more efficient AI gets, one can imagine all Roblox creators being able to iterate more quickly to build higher-quality content and to possibly start even testing their experiences in ways they’ve never tested before.
代币价格下跌越多，人工智能的效率就越高，可以想象所有 Roblox 创作者都能够更快地迭代以构建更高质量的内容，甚至可能开始以以前从未测试过的方式测试他们的体验。
With infinite tokens, I could see a future where creators build an iteration of their experience and do a million hours of testing with simulated players in five minutes, get those results, iterate on their game, do another million hours and iterate on their game, and then take it live and learn more quickly.
有了无限的代币，我可以看到这样一个未来：创作者将构建他们的体验迭代，并在五分钟内与模拟玩家进行一百万小时的测试，获得这些结果，迭代他们的游戏，再做一百万小时并迭代他们的游戏，然后将其投入使用并更快地学习。
I think overall, lower token costs equals more iteration, higher quality, more creativity for the Roblox creators.
我认为总体而言，对于 Roblox 创作者来说，较低的代币成本意味着更多的迭代、更高的质量和更多的创造力。
On beauty and gaming
关于美丽和游戏
What percentage of your games now do you feel are beautiful?
现在你觉得你的游戏中有多少是漂亮的？
All of them.
所有的人。
Some look just quite ordinary.
有些看起来很普通。
They might be fun, but I wouldn’t say they’re beautiful, right?
它们可能很有趣，但我不会说它们很漂亮，对吧？
Well, I was trying to go a couple levels out of the box on you there.
好吧，我试图在你身上突破几个层次。
The reason I feel they’re beautiful is when you said that, I immediately went to look and feel, but then I tried to imagine the 12-year-old or the 18-year-old or the 30-year-old struggling to build something wonderful and the human connection to those games.
我之所以觉得它们很漂亮，是因为当你这么说的时候，我立即去看了、去感觉了，但随后我试着想象 12 岁、18 岁或 30 岁的孩子正在努力建立一些美妙的东西，并与这些游戏建立人与人的联系。
By that definition, I think they’re all beautiful.
根据这个定义，我认为它们都很漂亮。
They are all the efforts of creation of real people trying to pour their hearts out to make something that other people love to play.
它们都是真实的人们倾注心血创作的努力，做出别人喜欢玩的东西。
On an artistic basis, I think you could ask me what percent of paintings in the MoMA do I think are beautiful.
从艺术的角度来看，我想你可以问我，我认为现代艺术博物馆中有百分之多少的画作是美丽的。
I’d probably say 20 percent.
我可能会说 20%。
If I had to look at 1,000 Roblox games, I wouldn’t name which is more beautiful to me because I think that’s less important than really the heartfelt work of all the creators.
如果我必须看 1,000 款 Roblox 游戏，我不会说出哪个对我来说更漂亮，因为我认为这比所有创作者的真心工作更重要。
I’ve been struck when I look at gaming at how much people don’t seem to care much about the visual beauty of their games.
当我观察游戏时，我惊讶地发现人们似乎不太关心游戏的视觉美感。
I would have expected something different, say, 15 years ago, and they just want a game that engages them somehow.
比如说 15 年前，我会期待一些不同的东西，而他们只是想要一款能以某种方式吸引他们的游戏。
Normal standards of visual beauty seem to have fallen away.
视觉美的正常标准似乎已经消失。
Is that incorrect?
这是不正确的吗？
Would you correct that impression in some manner?
你会以某种方式纠正这种印象吗？
I think you’re absolutely correct.
我认为你是完全正确的。
What I feel you may actually be describing, if we looked into other disciplines, the evolution of story from the campfire to written to audio to a movie, and the increasing fidelity; all of those stories, in a way, are beautiful, but at the time, for the vast majority of the creators, it may be that writing is just easier than producing a 4K Hollywood movie.
我觉得你实际上可能在描述，如果我们研究其他学科，故事从篝火到书面到音频到电影的演变，以及日益增加的保真度；所有这些故事在某种程度上都很美丽，但在当时，对于绝大多数创作者来说，写作可能比制作一部 4K 好莱坞电影更容易。
I feel that’s a little bit like the metaphor you’re talking about right now in gaming.
我觉得这有点像你现在在游戏中谈论的比喻。
For the vast majority of people, their story or their idea for their game is actually pretty beautiful.
对于绝大多数人来说，他们的故事或游戏想法实际上非常美丽。
Whether it’s a fashion game like Dress to Impress or it’s a grow garden game, the games are arguably beautiful, even if they don’t look photorealistic.
无论是像《Dress to Impress》这样的时尚游戏，还是种植花园游戏，这些游戏都可以说是美丽的，即使它们看起来并不逼真。
What I think we’ll see is, over time, as AI helps accelerate the ability to make games look really polished in any style the creator wants—could be photorealistic, could be anime, could be a Warner Brothers 2D cartoon look—you and I might say that looks more beautiful, but the core gameplay is still somewhat the original gameplay.
我想我们会看到的是，随着时间的推移，人工智能有助于加速让游戏看起来真正精美的能力，使其呈现出创作者想要的任何风格——可以是逼真的、可以是动漫的、可以是华纳兄弟的 2D 卡通外观——你我可能会说这看起来更漂亮，但核心游戏玩法在某种程度上仍然是原始游戏玩法。
I think we are going to see games arguably look more beautiful, even though I think they’re all beautiful.
我认为我们会看到游戏看起来更漂亮，尽管我认为它们都很漂亮。
On Robux
在 Robux 上
Now, if I look at successful economies today, they very often have floating exchange rates with each other—US dollar versus Japanese yen.
现在，如果我看看当今成功的经济体，它们之间经常采用浮动汇率——美元兑日元。
But Robux, they have a fixed exchange rate with the dollar.
但Robux，他们与美元有固定汇率。
Why not let that rate float?
为什么不让这个利率浮动呢？
It’s really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
We’re a US company, but at the same time, everyone around the world is playing on Roblox.
我们是一家美国公司，但与此同时，世界各地的每个人都在玩 Roblox。
For now, generally one Robuck equals about a penny.
目前，一般来说，一个罗巴克大约等于一便士。
It’s been somewhat consistent since we started.
自我们开始以来，情况一直有些一致。
That said, I’m actually open to the notion, looking forward to the future.
也就是说，我实际上对这个想法持开放态度，并对未来充满期待。
Obviously, this is just brainstorming.
显然，这只是头脑风暴。
Roblox creators, don’t get all excited.
Roblox 的创作者们，不要太兴奋。
We’re not going to do this.
我们不会这样做。
It is interesting to think, as Roblox becomes more and more global, should the Robuck more be pegged to a basket of global currencies to, in a way, pay homage to the various currencies in the world?
有趣的是，随着 Roblox 变得越来越全球化，Robuck 是否应该更多地与一篮子全球货币挂钩，以在某种程度上向世界上的各种货币致敬？
I’m not against that.
我并不反对这一点。
I think we generally like to anchor in the physical world, so we’re tied to something, but it’s also shown us a fair amount of fiscal conservatism.
我认为我们通常喜欢锚定在现实世界中，所以我们与某些东西联系在一起，但这也向我们展示了相当多的财政保守主义。
We treat the Robuck very seriously.
我们非常认真地对待 Robuck。
If a developer’s holding Robux in their account for five years, they probably like the idea that it’s not going way off on a tangent from the dollar, that they can trust, they can cash it out today or in a year.
如果开发者在自己的账户中持有 Robux 五年，他们可能会喜欢这样的想法：它不会偏离美元的方向，他们可以信任，他们可以在今天或一年内兑现。
If the Robuck was radically inflationary, we might create weird mechanics where the second you earn your Robuck, you better cash it out.
如果 Robuck 严重通货膨胀，我们可能会创造奇怪的机制，在你赚到 Robuck 的那一刻，你最好把它兑现。
I think it’s created a bit of stability in the economy for the creators to know we’re somewhat roughly tied to the penny, even though we’re not really a true currency.
我认为这为经济创造了一定的稳定性，让创作者知道我们在某种程度上与便士挂钩，尽管我们并不是真正的货币。
Is there any way I can buy or trade a Robuck off platform?
我可以通过什么方式在平台外购买或交易 Robuck？
Generally, we discourage that.
一般来说，我们不鼓励这样做。
I’ll tell you why.
我会告诉你原因。
We have such an enormous responsibility to the younger players on our platform, to the less sophisticated players on our platform.
我们对我们平台上的年轻玩家和不太成熟的玩家负有巨大的责任。
We have a responsibility both for monitoring the content on our platform, how the economy works, to the extent we can, have them have a fun and economically safe experience.
我们有责任监控我们平台上的内容以及经济的运作方式，尽我们所能，让他们拥有有趣且经济安全的体验。
I would be concerned with off-platform trading if that might make some users vulnerable.
我会担心平台外交易是否会让某些用户容易受到攻击。
On social media and younger audiences
在社交媒体和年轻受众上
Now, I’m known for having had some debates with Jon Haidt about his views on social media.
现在，我因与乔恩·海特（Jon Haidt）就他在社交媒体上的观点进行了一些辩论而闻名。
What do you think of his take?
你觉得他的做法怎么样？
Surely you’ve encountered it.
你肯定遇到过。
I’ve heard the name.
我听说过这个名字。
Can you tell me more about who that is?
你能告诉我更多关于那人是谁吗？
Well, he wrote a bestselling book.
嗯，他写了一本畅销书。
It’s still on The New York Times bestseller list, arguing that social media are truly toxic for the younger generation, ruining their lives, their mental health.
它仍然位列《纽约时报》畅销书排行榜上，认为社交媒体对年轻一代来说确实是有毒的，会毁掉他们的生活和心理健康。
In my opinion, much overstated.
在我看来，太夸张了。
I do think there are some real costs involved with social media.
我确实认为社交媒体涉及一些实际成本。
I think he neglects the benefits.
我认为他忽略了好处。
As you know, many countries either have done or will do a ban on social media for youth, typically below the age of 16, but that number can vary.
如您所知，许多国家已经或即将对青少年（通常是 16 岁以下的青少年）实施社交媒体禁令，但具体数字可能有所不同。
Jon Haidt has led that movement intellectually.
乔恩·海特在智力上领导了这场运动。
What do you think of what he’s done, of his arguments?
你对他的所作所为和他的论点有何看法？
I have a bunch of thoughts on this.
我对此有很多想法。
I do feel we can go back somewhere around 0 AD in ancient Greece or somewhere, whatever, there is someone famous—I got to see if I can find the quote—where someone was concerned that the youth were reading too much.
我确实觉得我们可以回到公元 0 年左右的古希腊或某个地方，不管怎样，有一个著名的人——我想看看我是否能找到这句话——有人担心年轻人读书太多。
I remember that data point.
我记得那个数据点。
Then I can remember when I was growing up with 512 analog TV, my parents were very concerned that my life was going to be ruined by TV.
我记得当我看着512模拟电视长大时，我的父母非常担心我的生活会被电视毁掉。
We had parentally enforced TV screen time control.
我们有父母强制执行的电视屏幕时间控制。
I do think there’s nothing new about us evaluating what technologies are safe for young people, both as a society as well as parents.
我确实认为，无论是作为社会还是作为父母，我们评估哪些技术对年轻人来说是安全的，这并不是什么新鲜事。
On social media, here’s where I think the interesting balance is.
在社交媒体上，我认为有趣的平衡就在这里。
When I was younger, in that vulnerable 13 through 16 age, I used to learn a lot by going to the library and reading the newspaper rack and going through the card catalog, and trying to get in tune with world events.
当我年轻的时候，在那个脆弱的 13 到 16 岁的时候，我常常通过去图书馆、阅读报纸架、浏览卡片目录、并试图与世界事件保持一致来学到很多东西。
We had ABC, NBC, CBS News.
我们有 ABC、NBC、CBS 新闻。
All of that.
所有这些。
I do feel that same age group right now is not going to the newspaper rack in the library, and probably doesn’t want to have anything to do with ABC, NBC, CBS world news.
我确实觉得现在同年龄段的人不会去图书馆的报架，也可能不想与 ABC、NBC、CBS 的世界新闻有任何关系。
They are probably on a short-form social media platform.
他们可能在一个简短的社交媒体平台上。
They are probably getting a lot of cat videos and a lot of sports videos and other things.
他们可能会收到很多猫视频、体育视频和其他东西。
They are probably getting world events as well.
他们可能也会收到世界事件。
I think the balance is where do 13 through 16-year-olds learn about world events?
我认为平衡点是 13 到 16 岁的孩子从哪里了解世界大事？
I think we have to be thoughtful in how can they be very informed about world events and the news in today’s world.
我认为我们必须深思熟虑，他们如何才能非常了解当今世界的世界事件和新闻。
That’s really complicated.
这真的很复杂。
I guess I don’t support just a blatant all-out ban for 13 through 16.
我想我不支持公然全面禁止 13 岁到 16 岁的孩子。
I think we have to be thoughtful where they can get their news.
我认为我们必须深思熟虑，他们可以从哪里获得新闻。
Now, as you probably know, Indonesia and Australia have already done bans for under 16.
现在，您可能知道，印度尼西亚和澳大利亚已经对 16 岁以下儿童实施了禁令。
Do those bans cover Roblox or not?
这些禁令是否涵盖 Roblox？
First off, one thought about Roblox and the way we operate is with an enormous respect for the laws and cultures of individual countries.
首先，关于 Roblox 和我们的运营方式的一个想法是对各个国家的法律和文化的极大尊重。
We have a platform that is very dynamic, is very configurable, both on our policies, on different age ratings, and we really do our best to respect and work with policymakers on what they’ve chosen to do in their country.
我们拥有一个非常动态、非常可配置的平台，无论是在我们的政策上，还是在不同的年龄评级上，我们都尽最大努力尊重政策制定者并与他们合作，了解他们在自己国家选择的做法。
Fortunately, in Australia, what we’ve seen, and I think legislators in the US and around the world are starting to see, is it’s not just one big clump.
幸运的是，在澳大利亚，我们所看到的，我认为美国和世界各地的立法者也开始看到，这不仅仅是一大堆。
It’s not just social networking, social media, gaming, and AI chatbots.
这不仅仅是社交网络、社交媒体、游戏和人工智能聊天机器人。
These are each very different types of products that can’t just be thrown into a single bill or a single law.
这些都是非常不同类型的产品，不能简单地归入单一法案或单一法律。
Social media is typically shorter-form video consumed by oneself, has discovery algorithms.
社交媒体通常是供自己消费的较短形式的视频，具有发现算法。
Social networking, I think of it more as sharing FOMO-inducing pictures with my friends.
社交网络，我更多地认为它是与我的朋友分享引发 FOMO 的图片。
Gaming is typically, especially on Roblox, much more something you do with your friends.
游戏通常是你和朋友一起玩的事情，尤其是在 Roblox 上。
More like when I was on the telephone when I was a kid, and we didn’t have online gaming platforms.
更像是我小时候打电话的时候，我们没有在线游戏平台。
Then we have a whole new angle coming, which is AI chatbots, which also have to be very thoughtfully designed because they can be very powerful.
然后我们有一个全新的视角，那就是人工智能聊天机器人，它也必须经过深思熟虑的设计，因为它们可以非常强大。
We may have AI chatbots contributing to education someday, and at the same time, we’ve heard some stories in the newspaper.
有一天，我们可能会让人工智能聊天机器人为教育做出贡献，与此同时，我们在报纸上听到了一些故事。
I think more and more countries are starting to tease these apart.
我认为越来越多的国家开始将这些分开。
In the case of Australia, we’ve enjoyed working with them in configuring Roblox in an appropriate way for their country.
就澳大利亚而言，我们很高兴与他们合作，以适合他们国家的方式配置 Roblox。
Say to the extent their ban becomes binding, and so far it seems it is not so binding, are you worried that social media activity switches onto, say, Roblox, which is not, I believe, covered by the ban, and that it puts this weight on your service, which is a kind of everything app, that it really wasn’t designed to bear, and that eventually you become a target too for this ban?
假设他们的禁令变得具有约束力，到目前为止似乎还没有那么具有约束力，你是否担心社交媒体活动转移到 Roblox（我认为该禁令并未涵盖）上，并且它会给你的服务带来这种压力，这是一种一切应用程序，它实际上并不是设计来承受的，最终你也会成为该禁令的目标？
I feel, given the thoughtfulness of our communication with the leaders around the world and hearing what individual countries feel is going to be appropriate for the young people in those countries, I’m optimistic.
我觉得，考虑到我们与世界各地领导人的深思熟虑的沟通，以及听取各个国家认为哪些内容适合这些国家的年轻人，我感到乐观。
Given the amount of control we have in working with them, I feel we can keep concentrating on getting to 10 percent of the global gaming space and even more in the US.
考虑到我们在与他们合作时拥有的控制权，我觉得我们可以继续集中精力在全球游戏领域占据 10% 的份额，在美国甚至更多。
That’s a clear path right now that I feel is less encumbered than some of the horizontal things you mentioned.
现在这是一条清晰的道路，我觉得它比你提到的一些横向的东西更少阻碍。
A lot of these bans, they also do not cover, say, Discord.
其中很多禁令也不包括 Discord 等内容。
Over time, can the law even distinguish social media from other internet sites?
随着时间的推移，法律甚至可以将社交媒体与其他互联网网站区分开来吗？
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
You’re very complicated, right?
你很复杂，对吧？
How does one surgically define the wide spectrum of the overlap between chat, communication, short-form video, image sharing, gaming, and AI chatbots?
如何精确地定义聊天、通信、短视频、图像共享、游戏和人工智能聊天机器人之间的广泛重叠？
We do work very hard to support legislators around the world in the crafting of what we would hopefully believe is good legislation, when a lot of times we’ve seen legislation come along with things we’re already doing.
我们确实非常努力地支持世界各地的立法者制定我们希望相信的良好立法，而很多时候我们已经看到立法与我们已经在做的事情同时出现。
For example, I don’t know, California age-appropriate design code.
例如，我不知道加州适合年龄的设计规范。
We are already essentially doing those kinds of things.
我们基本上已经在做这些事情了。
I would say for me and for our company, the position is more how can we be a resource for legislators around the world?
我想说，对于我和我们公司来说，更重要的是我们如何成为世界各地立法者的资源？
Five years from now, what will age verification look like?
五年后，年龄验证会是什么样子？
I feel we’re going to see continued—I love using the word convolution.
我觉得我们会继续看到——我喜欢使用“卷积”这个词。
It mathematically means taking all of the signals, for me, at various levels of accuracy and just getting better and better in a privacy-compliant, legally-compliant way of taking full responsibility to the best of our ability to know the age of everyone on our platform.
从数学上讲，对我来说，这意味着以不同的准确度获取所有信号，并以符合隐私和法律的方式变得越来越好，尽我们最大的能力了解我们平台上每个人的年龄，并承担全部责任。
There are a lot of sources of signals.
信号源有很多。
There may be a requirement someday in the US to have every app share the user’s age.
有一天，美国可能会要求每个应用程序共享用户的年龄。
There may be other forms of signals in another country.
在另一个国家可能有其他形式的信号。
I think we’re just going to see an increasing accuracy as more and more of these signals become available.
我认为，随着越来越多的信号可用，我们将会看到准确性不断提高。
It creates a huge responsibility for platforms like us.
这给我们这样的平台带来了巨大的责任。
We use all of this facial age estimation signaling ephemerally.
我们暂时使用所有这些面部年龄估计信号。
We do not keep it around.
我们不会保留它。
We don’t want to keep it around.
我们不想保留它。
I think there is a responsibility for vendors to manage these signals, but I’m optimistic.
我认为供应商有责任管理这些信号，但我很乐观。
I don’t mean necessarily today, but why not use something like eye scans?
我的意思不一定是今天，但为什么不使用眼睛扫描之类的东西呢？
Because the better you get at age verification, there’s then a higher incentive to just auction off usernames and passwords, say on 4chan, and someone buys it and they get on, and it seems as if they’re verified.
因为你在年龄验证方面做得越好，就越有动力拍卖用户名和密码，比如在 4chan 上，有人购买并继续使用，看起来好像他们已经通过了验证。
If you have an eye scan every time someone logs on—
如果每次有人登录时你都会进行眼睛扫描——
You’re once again in a very positive, creative way thinking like a 15-year-old brilliant kid on Roblox, so thank you.
你再次以一种非常积极、富有创造性的方式思考，就像 Roblox 上的 15 岁聪明孩子一样，所以谢谢你。
This is true flattery, to be compared to a 15-year-old.
与一个 15 岁的孩子相比，这才是真正的奉承。
We have such a creative user base that many of the things you mention, we already see them trying to do it.
我们拥有如此富有创造力的用户群，以至于您提到的许多事情我们已经看到他们在尝试去做。
I want to have my older sibling sign up.
我想让我的哥哥报名。
I want to have this happen.
我想让这件事发生。
The other thing you mentioned, which is continuous, is very important.
你提到的另一件事是连续的，非常重要。
We already have, in addition to facial estimation, a lot of other signals that give us hints of the age of that user, and can very often tell that phone’s been traded around or something’s amiss.
除了面部估计之外，我们还拥有许多其他信号，这些信号可以为我们提供该用户年龄的提示，并且通常可以告诉我们该手机已被更换或出现问题。
Where you’re going with the eye scan or more of a continuous verification is where we’re already headed as well, and some of that is already working on our system.
您要进行的眼部扫描或更多的连续验证也是我们已经在努力的方向，其中一些已经在我们的系统上运行。
Now, as you know, a lot of your philanthropic work, along with your wife, your family, it has to do with mental health issues.
现在，如您所知，您以及您的妻子和家人的许多慈善工作都与心理健康问题有关。
Do you think there’s today a mental health crisis amongst American teenagers, or it’s more or less at a normal level?
您认为当今美国青少年是否存在心理健康危机，或者或多或少处于正常水平？
I’ll put it in maybe the reference frame of what we work on.
我会把它放在我们工作的参考框架中。
What we work on is mental health related to metabolic health, and the concept that, in addition to all of the other ways we work to combat a wide range of things, bipolar, schizophrenia, eating disorders, and one could go on, in addition to drugs and medicines and therapies, the actual balance of the food one eats, the protein, carb, fat ratio, has a surprisingly large impact on many, many people.
我们致力于与代谢健康相关的心理健康，以及这样一个概念：除了我们努力对抗各种疾病（双相情感障碍、精神分裂症、饮食失调）的所有其他方法之外，除了药物和疗法之外，人们还可以继续下去，一个人所吃的食物的实际平衡，蛋白质、碳水化合物和脂肪的比例，对很多很多人有着令人惊讶的巨大影响。
Our own family history was my son got hit with really bad bipolar, went to the hospital several times.
我们自己的家族史是我的儿子患有严重的双相情感障碍，去了医院好几次。
The story, I think, that millions of parents get hit with—many, many medications, many, many doctors.
我认为，数以百万计的父母都受到了很多很多药物、很多很多医生的打击。
Being told by many doctors, “Yes, you’re just going to have to be on five medications continuously for the rest of your life.” What happened in our family, after years of research, is we ran into someone who was able to treat their bipolar with what is called a keto diet.
许多医生告诉我们：“是的，你只需要在余生中持续服用五种药物即可。”经过多年的研究，我们家里发生的事情是，我们遇到了一个能够通过所谓的酮饮食来治疗双相情感障碍的人。
A ketogenic diet is a high-fat, low-carb diet.
生酮饮食是一种高脂肪、低碳水化合物的饮食。
For my son, that is the one thing that brought him some relief and some remission.
对于我的儿子来说，这是给他带来一些缓解和缓解的一件事。
There’s a lot of really interesting evolutionary and historic rationale for this.
这有很多非常有趣的进化和历史原理。
Keto means burning fat rather than glucose.
酮意味着燃烧脂肪而不是葡萄糖。
Potentially up until 10,000 years ago in the agricultural revolution, that’s how a lot of us were operating.
可能直到一万年前的农业革命，我们很多人都是这样运作的。
One could say with the agricultural revolution, more carbs in our diet, and then arguably over the last 100 years, more sugars and corn syrup in our diet.
人们可以说，随着农业革命，我们的饮食中出现了更多的碳水化合物，然后可以说在过去的 100 年里，我们的饮食中出现了更多的糖和玉米糖浆。
The diet itself that we’re eating is very different and could be contributing to mental health problems for many people.
我们所吃的饮食本身非常不同，可能会导致许多人的心理健康问题。
I would comment that I am concerned about the diet that many people eat.
我想说的是，我担心许多人的饮食习惯。
We fund a lot of research to really double-blind, full official survey so we can start publishing this.
我们资助了大量的研究来进行真正的双盲、全面的官方调查，这样我们就可以开始发布这篇文章。
On AI and gaming
关于人工智能和游戏
Do you worry about a scenario where, say, three-quarters of the players on Roblox are AI bots or agents, and the humans get disillusioned with the system because they want to play against other humans?
您是否担心这样一种情况：例如，Roblox 上四分之三的玩家都是人工智能机器人或代理，而人类因为想要与其他人类对战而对系统感到失望？
Is that a fear you have, or you think it’s fine if there’s AI bots being a significant portion of the players, or you think you have a way to stop it?
你是否有这种恐惧，或者你认为如果人工智能机器人占玩家的很大一部分就很好，或者你认为你有办法阻止它？
I don’t think it’s a fear, but I think it’s something, as a responsible CEO of a platform like this, I have to be thinking about all the time.
我不认为这是一种恐惧，但我认为作为这样一个平台的负责任的首席执行官，我必须一直思考这一点。
I feel, in a way, our vision of the future is almost like Isaac Asimov with the rule of robots.
我觉得，在某种程度上，我们对未来的愿景几乎就像艾萨克·阿西莫夫（Isaac Asimov）对机器人的统治一样。
We’ll probably add to our principles something like every nonhuman player on Roblox, you’ll be able to tell that’s nonhuman versus human, unless you’ve decided on your own that you want to go to Westworld and not know the difference.
我们可能会在我们的原则中添加一些东西，就像 Roblox 上的每个非人类玩家一样，你将能够区分非人类与人类，除非你自己决定要去西部世界而不知道其中的区别。
I think that’s probably a responsibility.
我想这或许就是一种责任吧。
I think more and more, it’s going to take a lot of thought and energy to tease those apart over time.
我越来越认为，随着时间的推移，需要花费大量的思考和精力来将它们分开。
I’m a little bit optimistic in the raw motivation that there’ll be some players at the right age who just say, “Hey, I don’t care if I’m playing with AI or humans.” I think many of us, if not most of us, are going to want to know I’m playing with a human.
我对原始动机有点乐观，因为会有一些适龄的玩家只是说，“嘿，我不在乎我是在和人工智能还是人类一起玩。”我想我们中的许多人，如果不是大多数人，都会想知道我正在和一个人一起玩。
I have an optimism about the human desire, whether it’s a piece of artwork, a movie, some music, something to know that that has been human-created or that is a human.
我对人类的欲望持乐观态度，无论是一件艺术品、一部电影、一些音乐，还是一些知道是人类创造的或属于人类的东西。
What if there’s no Turing test to distinguish the humans from the AIs?
如果没有图灵测试来区分人类和人工智能怎么办？
I’m not sure we have one now in other settings.
我不确定我们现在在其他设置中是否有一个。
We should chat about this.
我们应该谈谈这个。
I feel coming up with the Turing test for the year 2090 is a really noble thing to be thinking about.
我觉得提出 2090 年的图灵测试是一件非常值得思考的崇高事情。
We need a Turing test quite soon, right?
我们很快就需要图灵测试，对吧？
Agents will be everywhere, probably in less than a year, but certainly within two years.
代理将无处不在，可能在不到一年的时间内，但肯定在两年内。
We may need a Turing test sooner than later, even if we can’t imagine it right now.
我们可能迟早需要图灵测试，即使我们现在无法想象。
I am somewhat optimistic that the more desire there is for a Turing test, the more potentially very large market there is for really good Turing tests.
我有点乐观地认为，对图灵测试的渴望越强烈，真正好的图灵测试的潜在市场就越大。
I’m a bit optimistic about AI fake images and photos because I do think the market’s going to evolve to go all the way back to who’s validating that image or photo.
我对人工智能伪造图像和照片有点乐观，因为我确实认为市场将会发展到谁在验证该图像或照片。
It’s almost like Underwriters Laboratories.
它几乎就像保险商实验室一样。
People don’t know about this, but in the 1920s, before there was a lot of government protection for buying your new toaster or your new mixer, a private company formed to put a sticker on toasters that they had checked your toaster.
人们不知道这一点，但在 20 年代，在政府为购买新烤面包机或新搅拌机提供大量保护之前，一家私人公司成立了，在烤面包机上贴上一张贴纸，表明他们已经检查过您的烤面包机。
When I’m on social media now, I love all the weird cats fighting with duck videos or dogs fighting with goat videos.
当我现在在社交媒体上时，我喜欢所有奇怪的猫与鸭子打架的视频或狗与山羊打架的视频。
I’m starting to get a little worried that some of those videos I’m seeing are AI-generated rather than real, and I only want to see the real ones.
我开始有点担心我看到的一些视频是人工智能生成的而不是真实的，我只想看真实的视频。
I’m a customer of AI validation.
我是人工智能验证的客户。
I only want to see the real cat-duck videos.
我只想看真正的猫鸭视频。
Do you think the Mark Zuckerberg vision of the metaverse is dead, or will AI bring it back in some form?
您认为马克·扎克伯格的虚拟世界愿景已经消亡，还是人工智能会以某种形式将其带回来？
The idea that normal people would spend two, three hours a day in something like the metaverse, having fun, building things, trading with AIs, whatever.
普通人每天会花两到三个小时在类似虚拟宇宙的地方，享受乐趣，建造东西，与人工智能交易，等等。
I don’t think that’s dead at all.
我认为那根本就没有死。
Generally, if we go back through the sci-fi literature, those things mostly come to pass.
一般来说，如果我们回顾一下科幻文学，这些事情大多都会发生。
I do think sometimes they come to pass at their own pace.
我确实认为有时它们会按照自己的节奏发生。
There’s that early Dune movie where they were playing with a digital tablet.
在早期的《沙丘》电影中，他们正在玩数字平板电脑。
It looks a lot like an iPad right now.
现在它看起来很像 iPad。
I think following that movie, we saw Apple cycle through.
我想在那部电影之后，我们看到了苹果的循环。
We cycled through the PalmPilot.
我们循环浏览 PalmPilot。
We cycled through the Apple Newton tablet.
我们循环浏览了苹果牛顿平板电脑。
It was only a fair amount of time later we popped on the iPhone and the iPad.
过了相当长的一段时间，我们才开始使用 iPhone 和 iPad。
I feel we’re seeing more and more people play in immersive environments.
我觉得我们看到越来越多的人在沉浸式环境中玩耍。
We are starting to see, as you can imagine, all of the trappings around concerts and other type of utility use, birthday parties.
正如你可以想象的那样，我们开始看到围绕音乐会和其他类型的公用设施、生日聚会的所有装饰。
We’re not fully in the full-blown video level of use that we’re doing right now that arguably accelerated during COVID.
我们还没有完全达到我们现在正在做的全面的视频使用水平，可以说在新冠疫情期间加速了视频的使用。
I do think, ultimately, immersive 3D simulation will be a superset of video.
我确实认为，最终，沉浸式 3D 模拟将成为视频的超集。
We will have photorealistic immersive 3D communication.
我们将拥有逼真的沉浸式 3D 通信。
We’ll choose to use that just because it’ll be easier than video.
我们选择使用它只是因为它比视频更容易。
I don’t think it’s dead at all.
我认为它根本就没有死。
On Mutiny on the Bounty
赏金叛变
Why is Mutiny on the Bounty one of your favorite books?
为什么《赏金叛变》是你最喜欢的书之一？
Who told you that?
谁告诉你的？
Just kidding.
只是在开玩笑。
I don’t remember.
我不记得了。
Probably GPT told me.
可能是 GPT 告诉我的。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Am I wrong?
我错了吗？
You are exactly right.
你是完全正确的。
I’d say when I was growing up, I had a globe.
我想说，当我长大的时候，我有一个地球仪。
Then, when I got older, I put an 8×12 world map on my wall.
然后，当我长大后，我在墙上贴了一张 8×12 的世界地图。
I just used to read all those ancient explorers and look where they were going and imagine those places and Magellan and Captain Cook and Darwin and Joshua Slocum and all that stuff.
我过去常常阅读所有古代探险家的作品，看看他们要去哪里，想象那些地方、麦哲伦、库克船长、达尔文和约书亚·斯洛库姆等等。
Mutiny on the Bounty had both that exploration angle as well as a little bit of the fantasy utopia angle as well.
《赏金叛变》既有探索的角度，也有一点幻想乌托邦的角度。
They sail to Tahiti to get the breadfruit.
他们航行到塔希提岛获取面包果。
There’s a huge human battle between Fletcher and Captain.
弗莱彻和船长之间发生了一场巨大的人类战斗。
Beyond Mutiny on the Bounty, it’s real, it’s historical, it’s nonfiction.
除了《赏金叛变》之外，它是真实的、历史的、非虚构的。
One of the crews went on to Pitcairn Island and literally, with 20 people, tried to set up and live there.
其中一名船员带着 20 人前往皮特凯恩岛，试图在那里定居和生活。
They were not found for 20 years later.
20年后他们仍未被发现。
Captain Bligh was set adrift in a longboat, literally a 30-foot rowboat with 20 people.
布莱船长乘坐一艘长艇漂流，这艘长艇长 30 英尺，载有 20 人。
They rowed all the way from Tahiti through Fiji, all the way to the island of Timor, and survived arguably the greatest solo navigation in history.
他们一路划船，从塔希提岛穿过斐济，一直到达帝汶岛，并在可以说是历史上最伟大的单独航行中幸存下来。
I highly recommend it.
我强烈推荐它。
There’s three versions of the movie.
电影有三个版本。
They’re all good.
他们都很好。
Which is the best one?
哪一个是最好的？
I think the very first one, with whoever that guy was that played the godfather in Apocalypse Now, I forget his name, the actor.
我认为第一个，无论在《现代启示录》中扮演教父的那个人是谁，我都忘记了他的名字，演员。
The first Mutiny on the Bounty, Fletcher Christian was played by a young Marlon Brando, which was captivating.
第一部《赏金叛变》中，弗莱彻·克里斯蒂安由年轻的马龙·白兰度扮演，令人着迷。
On David’s earlier companies
关于大卫早期的公司
You had an early company that did window washing.
你们早期有一家做窗户清洗的公司。
What did you learn from that company?
你从那家公司学到了什么？
I was in college freshman year.
我当时在大学一年级。
I wanted to try to make some money over the summer.
我想在暑假期间尝试赚点钱。
It was almost like that when someone says plastics, except someone in my freshman dorm said window washing.
当有人说塑料时，几乎就像这样，除了我的新生宿舍里有人说窗户清洗。
I said, “No, what’s up with that?” He said, “Here’s what you do.
我说：“没有，那是怎么回事？”他说：“这就是你要做的。
Two-person company, you could wash all the windows in a house in one day for $75.” I’m like, “No way.” Me and my brother that summer went and bought a bunch of window cleaning supplies and squeegees and ladders.
两人公司，一天花 75 美元就可以把一栋房子的所有窗户都洗干净。”我想，“不可能。”那年夏天，我和我的兄弟去买了一堆窗户清洁用品、橡胶扫帚和梯子。
We practiced on our own house.
我们在自己家里练习。
We figured out what’s the best formula.
我们找出了最好的公式。
Then all summer long, we would walk around the neighborhood, knock on the door—company was called Crystal Tech—quote the house.
然后整个夏天，我们都会在附近走来走去，敲门——公司叫水晶科技——引用房子的话。
Then, during the day, wash one or two homes.
然后，白天清洗一两个房子。
We were just nonstop business and arguably high quality.
我们只是不间断的业务并且可以说是高质量的。
We had to sell as well do it.
我们既要卖，又要卖。
We got really good at ladders, really good at difficult situations.
我们非常擅长梯子，非常擅长应对困难的情况。
I’d say by the end of the summer, we were literally pro-window washers.
我想说，到了夏末，我们真的成为了擦窗工的拥护者。
Your first company, you sold for what?
你的第一家公司，你卖了多少钱？
$20 million?
2000万美元？
Then for a while, you weren’t doing anything?
然后有一段时间你什么也没做？
What happened during that interim period?
这段过渡时期发生了什么？
Yes.
是的。
The first company was Knowledge Revolution.
第一家公司是知识革命。
Arguably, early signals of things that I was compelled and drawn to around simulation.
可以说，这是我被迫和被模拟所吸引的早期信号。
It started as an educational software company for learning physics.
它最初是一家学习物理的教育软件公司。
It expanded to be a physics simulation company for both education as well as mechanical engineering.
它扩展到教育和机械工程领域的物理模拟公司。
We got some of our early signals for Roblox there.
我们在那里得到了 Roblox 的一些早期信号。
Literally, before we were selling the company, we knew this had to be online.
从字面上看，在我们出售公司之前，我们就知道这必须是在线的。
We knew it had to have avatars.
我们知道它必须有化身。
We knew people needed to be able to build and share stuff.
我们知道人们需要能够构建和共享东西。
That company was acquired.
那家公司被收购了。
I worked for a couple years in a mechanical engineering software company.
我在一家机械工程软件公司工作了几年。
Then, yes, I had a two-year sabbatical.
然后，是的，我有两年的休假。
I went on a really long motorhome trip.
我进行了一次很长的房车旅行。
I got to hang out with my kids a bunch.
我必须和我的孩子们一起出去玩。
I flirted with being a talk radio show host on the radio for a little bit.
我曾一度想成为电台脱口秀主持人。
That was Santa Cruz, right?
那是圣克鲁斯，对吧？
KSCO Santa Cruz, 680.
KSCO 圣克鲁斯，680。
What was your show about?
你的节目是关于什么的？
It was called Freedom Talk.
它被称为“自由谈话”。
It was, I’d say, a nonpartisan show about really the future of freedom of speech around what types of laws support personal freedom.
我想说，这是一个无党派的节目，真正探讨了言论自由的未来，围绕哪些类型的法律支持个人自由。
It was a really hard show to get people to call into.
这是一场很难吸引人们来观看的演出。
Santa Cruz is a really small market, so it’s hard to get people to call into, but yes, we had a lot of great conversations on that.
圣克鲁斯是一个非常小的市场，因此很难让人们打电话进入，但是，是的，我们就此进行了很多精彩的对话。
When you drove around in a motorhome, how did you choose destinations?
当您开着房车到处走走时，您是如何选择目的地的？
It started with overplanning.
一切都是从过度计划开始的。
If you can believe it, before then, there wasn’t online mapping, so I had a CD-ROM map called Streets and Trips, plotted the whole route.
如果你相信的话，在那之前，还没有在线地图，所以我有一张名为“街道和旅行”的 CD-ROM 地图，绘制了整个路线。
Initially, tried to pick every campground for three months, and then I would say, by three weeks in, it went a lot more spontaneous.
最初，我们花了三个月的时间尝试挑选每个露营地，然后我想说，到了三周后，一切就变得更加自发了。
It went more day by day, but it was up the West Coast, up through Canada, up through Edmonton, east across Canada, visiting a bunch of relatives, down through Minnesota, west through the Black Hills, over to Colorado, down through Nevada, and back home in three months.
日子一天天过去，但它是沿着西海岸，向上穿过加拿大，向上穿过埃德蒙顿，向东穿过加拿大，拜访一群亲戚，向下穿过明尼苏达州，向西穿过布莱克山，到达科罗拉多州，向下穿过内华达州，三个月后回到家。
On mentors
关于导师
Who were your mentors today?
今天谁是你的导师？
Wow.
哇。
I’m inspired by people whose inventions within the time they were operating somewhat span the test of time.
我受到一些人的启发，他们在工作期间的发明在某种程度上跨越了时间的考验。
I would say very inspired by Walt Disney, very inspired by Leonardo da Vinci, very inspired by people who, ever in their period, invented some cool stuff.
我想说，非常受沃尔特·迪士尼的启发，非常受列奥纳多·达·芬奇的启发，非常受那些在他们那个时代发明了一些很酷的东西的人的启发。
How young is your youngest mentor?
你最年轻的导师有多年轻？
I would say my youngest mentor, if I had to pick them, would be two or three of the Roblox creators who are under 18 who are inspirational to me.
我想说，如果我必须选择的话，我最年轻的导师将是两三个对我有启发的 18 岁以下的 Roblox 创作者。
Last question.
最后一个问题。
What do you wish to learn about next?
接下来你想了解什么？
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
I have gone back to a review of ancient world history.
我又回到了对古代世界历史的回顾。
I’ve historically been a just heavy, heavy nonfiction science, mechanical computing stuff.
从历史上看，我一直是一个非常非常重的非小说类科学、机械计算人员。
I think as a counterpoint to everything I do in my life, it’s ancient Greece, Xerxes, all that stuff.
我认为，作为我一生中所做的一切的对比，它是古希腊、薛西斯，所有这些东西。
That’s where I’m focusing now.
这就是我现在关注的地方。
David Baszucki, thank you very much.
大卫·巴斯祖基，非常感谢你。
Thank you, Tyler.
谢谢你，泰勒。