Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire (Ep. 119)
Hello, everyone.
大家好。
Welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
欢迎回到与泰勒对话。
Today I have Dana Gioia.
今天请来达纳·乔亚。
The way I think of Dana is he is the only guest I have ever had who can answer all of my questions, but he does have another biography: at the top of the biography it reads, “Dana Gioia is an internationally acclaimed poet and writer.
我对达纳的看法是，他是我见过的唯一一位能够回答我所有问题的客人，但他确实有另一本传记：传记顶部写着：“达纳·乔亚是一位国际知名的诗人和作家。
He is the former California Poet Laureate and former chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts.” Most notably, he has a new book out, it’s a kind of memoir.
他是前加州桂冠诗人和国家艺术基金会前主席。”最值得注意的是，他出版了一本新书，这是一本回忆录。
Excellent book, I loved reading it.
很棒的书，我喜欢读它。
It’s called Studying with Miss Bishop: Memoirs from a Young Writer’s Life.
这本书的名字叫《与毕肖普小姐一起学习：一位年轻作家的回忆录》。
Miss Bishop, of course, being Elizabeth Bishop, but Dana has numerous other books, including books of poetry, a book, The Catholic Writer Today, perhaps his most famous work is Can Poetry Matter?
毕晓普小姐当然是伊丽莎白·毕晓普，但达纳还有许多其他书籍，包括诗集、《今日天主教作家》一书，也许他最著名的作品是《诗歌重要吗？》
Dana is also an accomplished librettist for opera.
达纳也是一位出色的歌剧剧本作家。
He has done much, much more on top of all of that.
除此之外，他还做了很多很多的事情。
Dana, welcome.
达纳，欢迎。
I’m glad to be here.
我很高兴来到这里。
Good to see you again.
很高兴再次见到你。
It’s been many years.
已经很多年了。
Correct.
正确的。
First question, the total softball.
第一个问题，全垒球。
Why was Jack Benny such an effective spokesperson for Jell-O?
为什么杰克·本尼是果冻如此有效的代言人？
Because he was the most popular radio comedian in the United States.
因为他是美国最受欢迎的广播喜剧演员。
Why were you such an effective advertising executive for Jell-O?
为什么你是 Jell-O 果冻的广告主管？
Because I spent about a year and a half, figuring out what was the possible way that we could get people to use more Jell-O.
因为我花了大约一年半的时间来弄清楚我们可以让人们使用更多果冻的可能方法。
Then I convinced the company, which took another year.
然后我说服了公司，又花了一年的时间。
It was really hard work, creativity, and research.
这确实是艰苦的工作、创造力和研究。
How did older and younger women use Jell-O differently?
老年女性和年轻女性使用果冻有何不同？
Well, what you’re referring to is the epic moment in General Foods life when we invented the Jell-O Jiggler, which was rather than creating an elaborate recipe, which was what we were trying to sell people for 40 years, simply a way that you could add water with your kids, put it in the refrigerator and have it ready as a finger food in one hour.
好吧，你指的是通用食品生活中的史诗般的时刻，当时我们发明了 Jell-O Jiggler，这并不是创造一个精心制作的食谱，这是我们 40 年来一直试图向人们推销的东西，只是一种你可以和你的孩子一起加水，把它放进冰箱，在一小时内准备好作为手指食物的方法。
It was like a platform for Jell-O?
这就像果冻的平台？
Yes, it was the way of using three times as much Jell-O for an occasion in which people would never use Jell-O, which is to make your own gummy bears.
是的，这就是在人们永远不会使用果冻的场合使用三倍的果冻的方法，那就是制作自己的小熊软糖。
It became a mom-kid activity.
这变成了一项母子活动。
We sold every box of Jell-O in the United States for several months.
我们在美国销售了几个月的每一盒果冻。
How was it that you picked out Jell-O to start with in your corporate career?
您是如何选择 Jell-O 来开启您的企业生涯的？
Because that was one of the businesses I was running, and it was one of the two most profitable businesses at General Foods.
因为那是我经营的业务之一，也是通用食品公司最赚钱的两项业务之一。
It had been declining for 25 years without a break, and we doubled the business overnight.
25年来一直在不断下滑，我们的业务一夜之间翻了一番。
Jell-O had been declining?
Jell-O 果冻一直在衰落吗？
Jell-O had been declining because all packaged foods had been declining.
果冻的销量一直在下降，因为所有包装食品都在下降。
Working at General Foods, what I was working with was the best food company in the United States in 1950, but I was working at it in the ’80s.
在通用食品公司工作时，我所在的公司是 1950 年美国最好的食品公司，但我是在 80 年代工作的。
It was a sense of taking these older products and making them relevant to people that weren’t using them all the time.
这是一种利用这些旧产品并使它们与那些不一直使用它们的人相关的感觉。
What was the corporate culture inside you that you brought to General Foods that maybe was missing in a company in decline, and where did you get that individual corporate culture from?
你给通用食品公司带来的企业文化是什么，而这在一家走下坡路的公司中可能是缺失的？你从哪里获得这种个人企业文化？
I was a poet, but I needed a job, so, I went to business school, I got an MBA, and I ended up in marketing at General Foods which is a highly analytic company with a very military organization.
我是一名诗人，但我需要一份工作，所以，我去了商学院，获得了 MBA 学位，最后在通用食品公司从事营销工作，这是一家高度分析的公司，拥有一个非常军事化的组织。
It was absolutely fantastic at managing existing businesses with a maximum of efficiency.
它在以最高效率管理现有业务方面绝对是非常棒的。
What they were not good at was, in a sense, reconceptualizing a business that was in trouble, because they would simply try to do more or less of what they had done before.
从某种意义上说，他们不擅长的是重新概念化陷入困境的企业，因为他们只是尝试或多或少地做他们以前做过的事情。
When I was an entry-level person, I was really at a disadvantage being a creative person.
当我还是一个入门级的人时，作为一个有创造力的人，我确实处于劣势。
I was very good at numbers, so I could fake my way through, but with each promotion at General Foods, actually the particular skills I had, which was in a sense of — I’m very good at reconceptualizing things, taking a solution that people have had, breaking it apart, and creating a new solution.
我非常擅长数字，所以我可以假装通过，但随着通用食品公司的每次晋升，实际上我所拥有的特殊技能，从某种意义上说，我非常擅长重新概念化事物，采用人们已有的解决方案，将其分解，并创建一个新的解决方案。
I essentially brought creativity that was completely in command of the numbers, if you can understand.
我本质上带来了完全掌控数字的创造力，如果你能理解的话。
That’s a very fairly rare combination, and I was able to transform several businesses there.
这是一个非常罕见的组合，我能够改变那里的几项业务。
Given your General Foods success, why do MBA programs so completely neglect the humanities?
既然通用食品公司取得了成功，为什么 MBA 课程却如此完全忽视人文学科呢？
Well, it comes from two reasons.
嗯，这有两个原因。
One is that the American educational system ignores the humanities, and secondly, our larger culture ignores the humanities.
一是美国的教育体系忽视了人文学科，二是我们的大文化忽视了人文学科。
If you go to business school, you are with the most practical people you’ll ever hang around with.
如果你去商学院，你会和最务实的人在一起。
I like business school and I like my colleagues at business school because they were people that just wanted to get things done.
我喜欢商学院，也喜欢商学院的同事，因为他们都是只想把事情做好的人。
They were very down to earth, unlike Harvard Graduate School and comparative literature where I’d come from.
他们非常脚踏实地，与我出身的哈佛研究生院和比较文学学院不同。
The problem is they are not people generally with a broad knowledge of history of the humanities and they’re not terribly creative people.
问题在于，他们通常不是具有广泛的人文历史知识的人，也不是非常有创造力的人。
On the intersection of poetry and business
论诗歌与商业的交叉点
Did your poetry converge or diverge with your work at General Foods and this military organization?
您的诗歌与您在通用食品公司和这个军事组织的工作是否一致或分歧？
Well, my poetry was transformed by working in business.
嗯，我的诗歌因商业工作而改变。
It probably could’ve happened at other companies too, but if you think about this, most poets in the United States have been in school since they were 6.
这可能也发生在其他公司，但如果你想一想，美国的大多数诗人从 6 岁起就开始上学了。
At 65, they’re still in school, their whole vision of the world is of a schoolroom, of a university.
65岁了，他们还在上学，他们眼中的世界就是一间教室、一所大学。
I was basically working with very intelligent, nonliterary people for 15 years.
15 年来，我基本上都是和非常聪明、不懂文学的人一起工作。
In the same way in Washington DC, I was working with highly intelligent, highly competitive, but nonliterary people.
同样，在华盛顿特区，我与高智商、高竞争力但不懂文学的人一起工作。
It changes your sense of language, it changes your sense of the audience.
它改变你的语感，改变你对观众的感觉。
I think I would’ve been a worse poet had I not gone into business in a business school.
我想，如果我没有进入商学院做生意的话，我会成为一个更糟糕的诗人。
Another reason why I was probably good is that I suffered in a way because I was working ten, twelve hours a day doing this other thing, then I was squeezing my writing into late nights and weekends.
我可能表现出色的另一个原因是，我在某种程度上遭受了痛苦，因为我每天工作十、十二个小时做其他事情，然后我把写作压缩到深夜和周末。
I do believe, as the jazz musicians say, you got to pay your dues.
我确实相信，正如爵士音乐家所说，你必须付出代价。
If your art isn’t so good that you’re willing to suffer for it, willing to sacrifice for it, you’re not getting deeply enough down inside you.
如果你的艺术不够好，以至于你愿意为它受苦、愿意为它牺牲，那么你的内心还不够深入。
You left Harvard what, in 1975?
1975 年你离开哈佛是什么时候？
Yes, 1975, I was in business school till ’77, then I was in the corporate world for 15 years, and then I quit.
是的，1975 年，我在商学院读到 77 年，然后我在企业界工作了 15 年，然后我辞职了。
Actually, that’s the weird thing is, I worked all the way up to the top, and just when I would have made some good money, I just said, “I’ve only got one life to lead.” It was complicated reasons because I think you know, I lost a son.
事实上，奇怪的是，我一路工作到了顶峰，正当我本可以赚到一些大钱的时候，我只是说：“我的人生只有一次。”原因很复杂，因为我想你知道，我失去了一个儿子。
It changes your perspective on what you want to do for life so, I just walked out, and my colleagues were baffled because they have to give an explanation that makes sense to them.
它改变了你对一生想要做什么的看法，所以我就走了出去，我的同事们感到困惑，因为他们必须给出一个对他们有意义的解释。
Apparently, what people were telling in the company was, “Gioia has cancer, he just doesn’t want to tell anybody,” because they couldn’t understand why you would walk out when you should have made your whole way up, one step from the top.
显然，公司里的人告诉的是，“乔亚得了癌症，他只是不想告诉任何人”，因为他们无法理解为什么你会在你应该一路向上、从最高层迈出一步的时候离开。
Then, I finally had to give them an explanation they could understand.
然后，我最终不得不给他们一个他们能理解的解释。
I said, “I’m going to teach.” Which I wasn’t really going to leave to teach, but they all understood that, “Oh yes, one of these days I’m going to quit and teach at Harvard Business School.” That was a fantasy that a lot of them had.
我说：“我去教书。”我其实并不打算离开去教书，但他们都明白，“哦，是的，总有一天我会辞职去哈佛商学院教书。”这是他们很多人的幻想。
It was time to reinvent my life.
是时候重塑我的生活了。
The first time when you quit Harvard, what was the straw that broke the camel’s back?
当你第一次从哈佛退学时，压垮骆驼的最后一根稻草是什么？
What was the final thought in your mind where you realized, “I need to get out of here?”
当你意识到“我需要离开这里”时，你脑子里最后的想法是什么？
I realized I took my best teachers at Harvard.
我意识到我在哈佛请了我最好的老师。
They fell into two camps.
他们分为两个阵营。
They were older men who had served in the military in World War II.
他们都是二战期间在军队服役的年长男子。
That had given them a kind of reality index about what the purposes of literature were.
这给了他们一种关于文学目的的现实索引。
My other two teachers, Elizabeth Bishop and Robert Fitzgerald, whom I write about in this book, were people who basically came to teaching very late.
我在本书中提到的另外两位老师，伊丽莎白·毕肖普（Elizabeth Bishop）和罗伯特·菲茨杰拉德（Robert Fitzgerald），基本上都是很晚才开始教书的。
They had made their living as writers, and it was only when they were old and lacking funds, they ended up teaching.
他们以作家为生，直到年事已高，缺乏资金，才转而教书。
I realized that Wallace Stevens hadn’t been in the university, T.
我意识到华莱士·史蒂文斯并没有上过大学，T.
S.
S。
Eliot hadn’t been in the university, I could make a living as a writer somehow some other way.
艾略特没有上过大学，我可以通过其他方式以作家的身份谋生。
I just felt that being in the university was making me, as a poet, too self-conscious.
我只是觉得在大学里让我作为一个诗人变得太不自在了。
I was writing poems to be interpreted, rather than to be experienced.
我写诗是为了被解释，而不是为了被体验。
Why is there so little good American poetry about business in the office, when business is such a big part of American life?
当商业是美国人生活的重要组成部分时，为什么在办公室里关于商业的优秀美国诗歌如此之少？
I think there’s two reasons.
我认为有两个原因。
First of all, people tend to write out of their life experience, and that life experience is, nowadays, mostly academic.
首先，人们倾向于写出自己的生活经历，而如今的生活经历大多是学术性的。
Secondly, business and money are the only two obscene topics left in American poetry.
其次，商业和金钱是美国诗歌中仅存的两个淫秽话题。
You can write specifically about sexual acts or excrement in American poetry and be praised, but if you write about business, you’re considered somehow polluted.
你可以专门写美国诗歌中的性行为或排泄物并受到赞扬，但如果你写商业，你就会被认为受到了某种污染。
I think even the business people who are poets, there’s been about a dozen, fifteen of them, they’re really quite famous, starting with Stevens and Elliot, to people like Dickey and Eberhardt.
我认为即使是商界人士也是诗人，大约有十几个、十五个，他们真的非常有名，从史蒂文斯和艾略特开始，到迪基和艾伯哈特这样的人。
Those people tend not to write about their experience because they know that it will essentially earn them criticism from their peers.
这些人往往不会写下他们的经历，因为他们知道这本质上会让他们受到同行的批评。
What do people who work in marketing, what might they understand about your poetry that other people would not?
从事营销工作的人对你的诗歌有什么理解，而其他人却无法理解？
I don’t think that people in marketing would understand my poetry better or worse than other people.
我不认为营销人员比其他人更好或更差地理解我的诗。
What I do think — and I know this, it’s not a speculation, it’s a deeply rooted observation — my poetry is written for people with broad life experience.
我的想法是——我知道，这不是猜测，而是根深蒂固的观察——我的诗是为拥有广泛生活经历的人而写的。
The older the audience, the better the audience.
观众年龄越大，观众越好。
The more diverse the audience, the better the audience.
受众越多样化，受众就越好。
Rather than writing for people who essentially are working in a — You know the tribe of economists.
与其为那些本质上在某个领域工作的人写作，不如你了解经济学家群体。
The tribe of economists have certain rituals.
经济学家部落有一定的仪式。
They get around the fire, they do their economist dance, they offer their economist sacrifices, they sing their economist chants.
他们围着火堆，跳着经济学家的舞蹈，献上经济学家的牺牲，唱着经济学家的圣歌。
Poets are the same way, and I’m not really interested in talking to them exclusively.
诗人也是如此，我并没有兴趣专门与他们交谈。
My desire has always been to write a poem that my fellow poets will say, “Gee, that’s really well made, that’s really a nice work,” but it’s really registered to speak to a broad mix of humanity.
我的愿望一直是写一首诗，我的诗友们会说，“哎呀，这真是一首好作品，这真是一首好作品”，但它确实是为了表达广泛的人性。
There’s an assumption in the university that the common reader, the average person is stupid.
大学里有一种假设，即普通读者、普通人都是愚蠢的。
I hate to say this in public, but the center of human intelligence, the epicenter of human intellectuality, is not the English Department.
我讨厌在公共场合这么说，但是人类智力的中心，人类智力的中心，不是英语系。
The English Department has bright people, it has dumb people.
英语系有聪明的人，也有愚蠢的人。
It is a reflection of humanity in general, and I meet intelligent people in every profession I go to, including people that are in manual labor.
这是整个人性的反映，我在从事的每个职业中都遇到了聪明的人，包括从事体力劳动的人。
I mean, extremely reflective and intelligent people.
我的意思是，非常善于反思和聪明的人。
That’s the life that they have found themselves in, and I know that because I am the first person in my family to go to college.
这就是他们发现自己的生活，我知道这一点，因为我是家里第一个上大学的人。
I was raised among working-class people, many of whom did not speak English as their native language.
我是在工人阶级中长大的，他们中的许多人的母语不是英语。
My family on both sides was full of really intelligent people, and I do not want to exclude those people from the work that I write.
我的父母双方都是非常聪明的人，我不想将这些人排除在我写的作品之外。
On the social functions for poetry
论诗歌的社会功能
Do you, like Auden, crave a social function for poetry?
您是否像奥登一样渴望诗歌的社会功能？
I think poetry has a social function but it’s a relatively complicated and subtle one, which is to say, the reason that we have art is, in a sense, to increase human happiness.
我认为诗歌有社会功能，但它是一个相对复杂和微妙的功能，也就是说，我们之所以有艺术，从某种意义上来说，是为了增加人类的幸福感。
It does that, essentially, on an individual level.
它本质上是在个人层面上做到这一点的。
A work of art awakens you.
一件艺术品唤醒你。
It awakens you to the possibilities of your own potential.
它唤醒你认识到自己潜力的可能性。
It takes that potential, it enlarges it, it refines it, and each art does it in different ways.
它利用这种潜力，扩大它，完善它，每种艺术都以不同的方式做到这一点。
Music appeals to the auditory sense, an organizational, formal structure in the mind.
音乐诉诸听觉，是心灵中一种有组织的、形式化的结构。
Painting is visual.
绘画是视觉的。
Sculpture is visual and tactile.
雕塑是视觉和触觉的。
In the old days, people always would feel sculptures.
在过去，人们总是会感受到雕塑。
Poetry is to our language and our emotional functions.
诗歌对我们的语言和情感功能有作用。
They awaken emotions and awaken our ability to articulate them.
它们唤醒情绪并唤醒我们表达情绪的能力。
Now, that’s on an individual basis.
现在，这是基于个人的。
When you do that on a social level, what you create over time, if you have the arts there, are people who are better aware of who they are, how they feel, are able to articulate it and recognize that empathetically in other people.
当你在社会层面上做到这一点时，随着时间的推移，如果你有艺术，你所创造的就是人们更好地意识到自己是谁，他们的感受如何，能够清晰地表达出来，并以同理心认识到其他人的感受。
I would say that a purpose of poetry on a social level is to enlarge our empathy and understanding of one another.
我想说，诗歌在社会层面上的目的是扩大我们彼此的同理心和理解。
What are the prospects for a culture that no longer understands poetry, and might that be ours?
一种不再理解诗歌的文化的前景是什么？这可能就是我们的文化吗？
I think we see it everywhere around us.
我想我们周围到处都可以看到它。
We see a coarsening, a stupification of language.
我们看到语言变得粗俗、愚钝。
We live in cliches.
我们生活在陈词滥调中。
We live in news bites.
我们生活在新闻报道中。
If you look at just the size of an article in a newspaper, it’s probably one-third of what it was when I was in college.
如果你只看报纸上一篇文章的大小，它可能是我上大学时的三分之一。
The New Yorker even probably has one quarter as many words that we’re not as comfortable working with words, and where you see it most clearly — I did a lot of work at the NEA in terms of American literacy, and I had never understood how we measure literacy.
《纽约客》甚至可能有四分之一的词汇量，而我们不太擅长使用词汇，你可以清楚地看到这一点 —— 我在 NEA 做了很多关于美国识字率的工作，但我从来不明白我们如何衡量识字率。
It’s a very simple thing, and I can explain it in about a minute.
这是一件非常简单的事情，我大约一分钟就能解释清楚。
In a test that measures high levels of literacy, I say, “Tyler says that coffee is good.”
在一项衡量高读写能力的测试中，我说：“泰勒说咖啡很好。”
Dana says, “Coffee is bad,” and the question is, “Is coffee good?
达纳说，“咖啡不好”，问题是，“咖啡好吗？
Is coffee bad?
咖啡不好吗？
Is there a disagreement?” Most people will check good or bad.
有什么不同意见吗？”大多数人都会检查好或坏。
They cannot because of their, in a sense, inadequate linguistic training, they cannot recognize contradictory statements in a logical structure, which means that we’ve lost our ability to make even basic distinctions and refinements in terms of thought.
他们不能，从某种意义上来说，是因为他们的语言训练不足，他们无法识别逻辑结构中的矛盾陈述，这意味着我们已经失去了在思维方面做出哪怕是基本区分和提炼的能力。
There’s another whole thing which is different from this that I’ll be happy to go into but I don’t want to talk too long on this.
还有另一件事与此不同，我很乐意讨论，但我不想在这个问题上谈论太久。
On new forms of poetry
论诗歌的新形式
Will there be ever a great long poem again?
还会有一首伟大的长诗吗？
There might be, but it will take a very different form.
可能有，但形式会非常不同。
Why did they stop appearing?
他们为什么不再出现？
Harry Potter is a long book or the series of them is long, you put them all together.
《哈利·波特》是一本很长的书，或者说是一个很长的系列，你把它们放在一起。
Lord of the Rings, the three volumes, they’re fairly long.
指环王，三卷，相当长。
Why aren’t poems long anymore?
为什么诗不再长了？
Well, it’s interesting.
嗯，这很有趣。
In the modern movement, and I’m talking about maybe 1914 to the Second World War, there was a huge transformation in all the arts, music, sculpture, painting, literature, and art became, in every form, more abstract, more conceptual, more formal, not in a sense of rhyme and meter or whatever but in terms of these structural designs.
在现代运动中，我说的可能是 1914 年到第二次世界大战，所有艺术都发生了巨大的转变，音乐、雕塑、绘画、文学和艺术在各种形式上都变得更加抽象、更加概念、更加正式，不是在韵律和韵律或其他意义上，而是在这些结构设计方面。
As part of that, there was a general bias against narrative.
作为其中的一部分，人们普遍对叙事存在偏见。
Putting a story in was somehow condescending to a stupid audience but the fact is, humanity needs stories.
把故事放进去在某种程度上居高临下地对待愚蠢的观众，但事实是，人类需要故事。
People lead their individual life as a story.
人们把自己的生活当作一个故事来过。
One of the reasons you need lots of stories is that in every life, your story comes to an impasse.
你需要很多故事的原因之一是，在每一个生命中，你的故事都会陷入僵局。
You have to, in a sense, revise the narrative of your own life, and what fiction does, what poetry does, what narrative does is give you a wealth of narrative possibilities so you can recognize that no matter how bad your life is right now, that there’s an escape, there’s a rescue, there might even, in the Greek sense, be a deus ex machina, an intervention which saves you.
从某种意义上说，你必须修改你自己生活的叙事，而小说的作用、诗歌的作用、叙事的作用就是给你提供丰富的叙事可能性，这样你就能认识到，无论你现在的生活多么糟糕，都有逃避，有拯救，甚至可能有希腊意义上的“deus ex machina”，一种拯救你的干预。
I believe that the suicide epidemic in the United States, the opioid epidemic in the United States, especially among young people, is among people who cannot, in a sense, get control of the stories of their own lives.
我相信，美国的自杀流行、阿片类药物流行，尤其是在年轻人中，从某种意义上说，是在那些无法控制自己生活故事的人中间发生的。
The deprivation of narrative of stories, the cheapening of narratives in our mass culture, I think has had tremendous human cost, both in the loss of creativity, loss of productivity, and also, at its worst in terms of suicide, drug use, and death.
我认为，我们的大众文化中故事叙事的剥夺和叙事的廉价化已经造成了巨大的人类成本，包括创造力的丧失、生产力的丧失，最糟糕的是自杀、吸毒和死亡。
Is rap music, simply the new poetry?
说唱音乐只是新诗吗？
It’s very popular.
它很受欢迎。
It is poetic in some broader notion of the term.
从这个词的更广泛的概念来看，它是诗意的。
Rap, hip hop without any question is poetry.
说唱、嘻哈毫无疑问都是诗歌。
It is rhythmically structured words moving through time.
它是有节奏的、结构性的词语随着时间的推移而移动。
You have in the invention of rap — Rap is interesting because, once again, if I go back to 1975 when I was leaving Harvard, I was told by the world experts in poetry that rhyme and meter were dead, narrative was dead in poetry.
说唱的发明很有趣，因为如果我再一次回到 1975 年离开哈佛时，世界诗歌专家告诉我，诗歌中的韵律和格律已经死了，叙事也死了。
Poetry would become ever more complex, which meant that it could only appeal to an elite audience, and finally, that the African American voice in poetry rejected these European things and would take this experimental form.
诗歌将变得更加复杂，这意味着它只能吸引精英观众，最后，非裔美国人在诗歌中的声音拒绝了这些欧洲事物，并将采取这种实验形式。
What the intellectuals in the United States did was we took poetry away from common people.
美国知识分子所做的就是把诗歌从普通民众手中夺走。
We took rhyme away, we took narrative away, we took the ballad away, and the common people reinvented it.
我们拿走了韵律，我们拿走了叙事，我们拿走了民谣，而普通人则重新发明了它。
The greatest one of these was Kool Herc in the South Bronx, who invented what we now think of as rap and hip hop.
其中最伟大的一位是南布朗克斯的库尔·赫克 (Kool Herc)，他发明了我们现在所认为的说唱和嘻哈音乐。
Within about ten years, it went from non-existent to being the most widely purchased form of popular music.
在大约十年的时间里，它从不存在变成了购买最广泛的流行音乐形式。
We saw in our own lifetime something akin to Homer, the reinvention of popular oral poetry.
我们在自己的一生中看到了类似于荷马的东西，即流行口头诗歌的重塑。
There were parallels in the revival of slam poetry, cowboy poetry, and new formalism, so at every little social group, people from the ground up reinvented poetry because the intellectuals had taken it away from them.
大满贯诗歌、牛仔诗歌和新形式主义的复兴有相似之处，因此在每一个小社会群体中，人们从头开始重新发明诗歌，因为知识分子从他们手中夺走了诗歌。
On Elizabeth Bishop
论伊丽莎白·毕肖普
Why is Elizabeth Bishop a more radical poet than Ginsberg or Ferlinghetti?
为什么伊丽莎白·毕肖普是一位比金斯伯格或费林盖蒂更激进的诗人？
She’s radical in that she went back to the roots of poetry and she kept rhythm, she usually kept rhyme, and she understood that poetry wasn’t simply a formal structure, it was a form of wisdom literature.
她的激进之处在于她回到了诗歌的根源，她保持节奏，她通常保持韵律，她明白诗歌不仅仅是一种形式结构，它是一种智慧文学的形式。
When I review books of poetry, I ask myself three questions.
当我回顾诗集时，我问自己三个问题。
What is the writer doing?
作者在做什么？
What’s the writer trying to do?
作者想做什么？
Secondly, how well does the writer do this?
其次，作者在这方面做得如何？
Then, there’s the third question, and this is where Elizabeth Bishop really wins.
然后是第三个问题，这就是伊丽莎白·毕晓普真正获胜的地方。
How worthwhile was the thing that they wanted to do and they did?
他们想做并且做了的事情有多有价值？
Sometimes you see people do marvelous jobs of something that’s not really worth the effort.
有时你会看到人们在一些并不值得付出努力的事情上做了出色的工作。
What Bishop tried to do was to explain in her poetry, this is what great poets do, what it is like to live in a particular life, in a particular moment, and make you feel the pain, the joy, the illumination, the doubt with the absolute intensity as if it were happening to you.
毕肖普试图在她的诗歌中解释，这就是伟大诗人所做的，生活在特定的生活、特定的时刻是什么感觉，让你以绝对的强度感受到痛苦、快乐、启发、怀疑，就好像它发生在你身上一样。
As you must know in the main Bishop biography, it suggested she was not such a popular professor at Harvard, yet you loved studying with her.
正如你在毕肖普的主要传记中所知道的那样，这表明她在哈佛并不是一位受欢迎的教授，但你喜欢和她一起学习。
What accounts for that difference in perspective?
是什么造成了这种观点上的差异？
I think actually, it was my memoir that really brought this to light because nobody wanted to take her classes.
我认为实际上，是我的回忆录真正揭露了这一点，因为没有人愿意上她的课。
She was not popular, she was not prestigious and Harvard students are absolute barometers of prestige.
她并不受欢迎，也不享有声望，而哈佛学生是声望的绝对晴雨表。
They can feel it and they gravitate towards it.
他们能感觉到它并且被它所吸引。
I liked her, she was a bad teacher, there’s no question about that, she was a bad teacher, but you were in a room with a great poet who had no pretensions at all.
我喜欢她，她是一位糟糕的老师，毫无疑问，她是一位糟糕的老师，但你和一位伟大的诗人共处一室，他一点也不自命不凡。
She says, “I am a bad teacher,” and you would just talk about poems.
她说，“我是一个糟糕的老师”，而你只会谈论诗歌。
She would look at them, you’d feel material, and there is no substitute for a young artist to the experience of being in the presence of a master.
她看着它们，你会感到物质，对于年轻艺术家来说，在大师面前的体验是无可替代的。
My brother Ted, who’s a famous historian jazz critic, he played piano with Stan Getz.
我的兄弟泰德是一位著名的历史爵士乐评论家，他和斯坦·盖茨一起弹钢琴。
Stan was a very difficult guy but he was one of the great jazz geniuses in the last half-century, and just seeing how Getz worked, how Getz performed, how Getz conceived of things was like a university degree.
斯坦是一个很难相处的人，但他是过去半个世纪最伟大的爵士天才之一，光是看看盖茨如何工作、如何表演、如何构思事物就像获得大学学位一样。
The same thing for me was Bishop and Robert Fitzgerald.
对我来说，毕肖普和罗伯特·菲茨杰拉德也是如此。
I was with two of the greatest Craftsman poets of their generation sometimes twice a week.
我有时每周两次与他们这一代最伟大的工匠诗人在一起两次。
It was transformative to me much better than an organized lecturer.
这对我来说比有组织的讲师更具变革性。
Is memorizing poetry a good way to learn it?
背诗是学习诗的好方法吗？
Memorizing poetry is the only way to learn poetry.
背诗是学诗的唯一途径。
Who is the mother of the muses?
缪斯女神的母亲是谁？
Mnemosyne, the goddess of memory.
摩涅莫绪涅（Mnemosyne），记忆女神。
You don’t understand poetry until you learn it by heart.
除非你背诵诗歌，否则你无法理解诗歌。
Think of the metaphor of learning it by heart, putting it into the very center of your being, and making it part of you.
想象一下背诵它的比喻，将它放入你存在的中心，并使其成为你的一部分。
That’s when and only when you understand how most of poetry’s meaning is indirect, is intuitive, even physical.
只有当你明白诗歌的大部分含义是间接的、直观的、甚至是物理的时，你才会明白这一点。
What do you think of learning every single character in a long epic poem?
你觉得学习一首长史诗中的每一个角色怎么样？
I thought it was hard because Robert Fitzgerald made us learn every character in every one, and we’re talking about hundreds of people with Greek names or Italian names, but what it does do is show you that every moment in a great work of art contributes to the total effect.
我认为这很难，因为罗伯特·菲茨杰拉德让我们了解每个角色中的每一个角色，而且我们谈论的是数百个具有希腊名字或意大利名字的人，但它所做的是向你展示一部伟大艺术作品中的每一刻都有助于整体效果。
That none of these things are accidental, everything has meaning.
这些事情都不是偶然的，一切都是有意义的。
On conservatism and Christianity in poetry
论诗歌中的保守主义和基督教
Putting yourself aside, where were the conservative poets today?
抛开你自己不谈，今天的保守派诗人在哪里？
Why is there not a modern T.S.
为什么没有现代的T.S.
Eliot or Cummings?
艾略特还是卡明斯？
There’s three ways of saying conservative.
保守有三种表达方式。
Is it conservative politics, is it conservative aesthetics, is it a conservative cultural vision?
是保守的政治，是保守的美学，还是保守的文化视野？
There was an avant-garde composer named Lou Harrison and he had his motto which was, “Consider, , conserve, create.” The whole notion seems to me of art is of conservation, of looking at all the achievements of the past and figuring out what it is we save and what it is that we need to add to move forward.
有一位前卫作曲家名叫卢·哈里森（Lou Harrison），他的座右铭是“考虑、保存、创造”。在我看来，艺术的整个概念就是保护，就是审视过去的所有成就，弄清楚我们要保存什么，以及我们需要添加什么才能继续前进。
The trouble with that in terms of academic culture is that there’s one or two trendy ways that they think are important because they generate work that validates you for promotion and for tenure versus having real deeper cultural values.
就学术文化而言，问题在于他们认为有一两种流行的方式很重要，因为它们产生的工作可以验证你的晋升和终身教职，而不是拥有真正更深层次的文化价值观。
The really great poets who are conserving culture, and one of the greatest ones just died, a fellow named Richard Wilbur.
那些真正保护文化的伟大诗人，其中一位最伟大的诗人刚刚去世，他的名字叫理查德·威尔伯。
What you felt with Wilbur when you are reading these wonderful poems that everything that was worthwhile and usable in the past somehow found a place in these poems.
当你阅读这些精彩的诗歌时，你对威尔伯的感受是：过去有价值和有用的一切都以某种方式在这些诗歌中找到了位置。
I think that’s what it is in the same way you would not in mathematics or science or economics throw out everything before you.
我认为这就是它的本质，就像你不会在数学、科学或经济学中抛弃你面前的一切一样。
You would take it and you would build on it to make something that was meaningful for the moment.
你会接受它，并在此基础上做出一些对当下有意义的东西。
Elliot had suggested that Virgil was the first poet to, in some aesthetic sense, actually belong to the Christian world.
艾略特认为维吉尔是第一位在某种美学意义上真正属于基督教世界的诗人。
Do you agree?
你同意？
Well, you can’t understand early Christianity oddly without understanding Virgil.
好吧，如果不了解维吉尔，你就无法理解早期基督教，这很奇怪。
Virgil in one of his Eclogues claimed that there was a king being born in the east who would save the world.
维吉尔在他的一首牧歌中声称，东方有一位国王诞生，他将拯救世界。
He was talking about apparently a possible heir to Augustus, but the Christians took this as essentially a prophecy, and they developed a view of Virgil and of classical culture which I think saved Christianity.
他显然在谈论奥古斯都的可能继承人，但基督徒认为这本质上是一个预言，他们发展了一种关于维吉尔和古典文化的观点，我认为这拯救了基督教。
I’m a Catholic, I think this is fundamental to Catholicism, which says that there is the supernatural inspiration, but there is also a natural prophecy, a natural inspiration.
我是一个天主教徒，我认为这是天主教的基础，它说有超自然的灵感，但也有一个自然的预言，一个自然的灵感。
Using Virgil they were able to save the entire classical tradition as an alternate way of thinking about the world, articulating in the world, and they assumed this, they consumed and digested this to form Catholicism, which is why Catholicism has such a strong philosophical-theological and artistic tradition.
利用维吉尔，他们能够拯救整个古典传统，作为思考世界、表达世界的另一种方式，他们假设了这一点，他们消费和消化了这一点，形成了天主教，这就是为什么天主教拥有如此强大的哲学神学和艺术传统。
Hermann Broch, as you know, he wrote the famous novel The Death of Virgil.
赫尔曼·布洛赫，如你所知，他写了著名的小说《维吉尔之死》。
He was a Catholic.
He was a Catholic.
Is that coincidence, accident, fundamental?
这是巧合、偶然还是根本原因？
Broch is one of these fascinating characters, and he takes a single moment in Virgil’s life, the very last moment.
布洛赫是这些迷人的人物之一，他占据了维吉尔生命中的一个时刻，即最后一刻。
Virgil, like Kafka, at the end of his life felt that he had failed as an artist, that he had not finished certain things in the need, so he requested that his great epic — You have to think of this, the Aeneid is the central poem of Western literature.
维吉尔和卡夫卡一样，在他生命的最后时刻感到自己作为一个艺术家是失败的，他没有完成某些需要完成的事情，所以他要求他的伟大史诗 —— 你必须想到这一点，《埃涅阿斯纪》是西方文学的中心诗歌。
People forget this now because we go back to Homer, we have Dante, we have everything else but the Aeneid was what formed essentially the imagination of Christian Europe, and that he’s going to burn this.
人们现在忘记了这一点，因为我们回到荷马，我们有但丁，我们有其他一切，但《埃涅阿斯纪》本质上形成了基督教欧洲的想象力，而他将烧毁它。
Broch takes him and turns them into an existential hero having an existential crisis, which indeed might have been true.
布洛赫带他去，把他变成了一个面临生存危机的英雄，这确实可能是真的。
Luckily, Kafka’s friend Max Brod, Virgil’s friends refuse to follow the poet’s wishes.
幸运的是，卡夫卡的朋友马克斯·布罗德、维吉尔的朋友拒绝遵循诗人的意愿。
Towards the end of that novel, he has a dialogue with Augustus, the Emperor.
在小说的结尾，他与皇帝奥古斯都进行了对话。
Let’s say you’re that poet, you’re on or near your deathbed, and you’re having a dialogue with Augustus.
假设你是那位诗人，你正在临终或即将临终，你正在与奥古斯都对话。
What do you tell Augustus?
你对奥古斯都说什么？
Thank God you were here and not Caligula.
感谢上帝，你在这里而不是卡利古拉。
Augustus is that brief moment where you think that the Roman imperial system might work, and Augustus, much more than our rulers today, understood the cultural power of art.
在奥古斯都的短暂时刻，你会认为罗马帝国制度可能会发挥作用，而奥古斯都比我们今天的统治者更了解艺术的文化力量。
Postmodernists, they defame Augustus, they defame Virgil, Horace, think that they were pawns into imperial power, but I think Augustus had a broader vision as did Virgil which is to say, if you can give people a common story, it unifies them.
后现代主义者，他们诽谤奥古斯都，他们诽谤维吉尔、贺拉斯，认为他们是皇权的棋子，但我认为奥古斯都和维吉尔一样有更广阔的视野，也就是说，如果你能给人们一个共同的故事，它就把他们团结起来。
A culture, in order to keep together an empire, a nation in order to keep together, has to have certain common myths that express, convey the values, not in intellectual terms, but in terms of story, emotion, image.
一种文化，为了使一个帝国团结在一起，一个国家为了团结在一起，必须有某些共同的神话来表达、传达价值观，不是用知识的方式，而是用故事、情感和形象的方式。
I know you’re a big admirer of Auden as a poet and a writer.
我知道您非常崇拜诗人和作家奥登。
He once said and I quote, “Opera is the last refuge of the high style in poetry.” True or false?
他曾经说过，我引用过：“歌剧是高雅诗歌风格的最后避难所。”是真是假？
True, with a vengeance.
True, with a vengeance.
I am not invited to come in and rewrite TV shows.
我没有被邀请进来重写电视节目。
Francis Ford Coppola and Martin Scorsese don’t call me to work on their screenplays, but in opera, they still need the poet because they need language in stories that are elevated, concise, and lyrical.
弗朗西斯·福特·科波拉和马丁·斯科塞斯不会叫我帮他们写剧本，但在歌剧中，他们仍然需要诗人，因为他们需要故事中的语言升华、简洁、抒情。
How good are Auden’s libretti?
奥登的剧本有多好？
He did one for Stravinsky, one for Henze, for Britain he did Paul Bunyan.
他为斯特拉文斯基创作了一首，为亨策创作了一首，为英国创作了保罗·班扬。
Here’s the thing you learned from Auden.
这是你从奥登那里学到的东西。
His greatest libretto in terms of poetry is his first one called Paul Bunyan, which made an absolutely terrible opera because it was so well written, you couldn’t do anything with it.
他在诗歌方面最伟大的剧本是他的第一部作品《保罗·班扬》（Paul Bunyan），这部歌剧绝对是一部糟糕的歌剧，因为它写得非常好，你无法用它做任何事。
What Auden did is as he went forward, the libretti became less poetically distinguished and more dramatically powerful.
奥登所做的是，随着他的前进，剧本变得不再那么富有诗意，而更具戏剧性的力量。
I think his greatest libretti, I think is the best two are the two that he wrote for Hans Werner Henze, The Elegy for Young Lovers and The Bassarids.
我认为他最伟大的剧本，我认为最好的两首是他为汉斯维尔纳亨策写的两首，《年轻恋人挽歌》和《巴萨尔人》。
Unfortunately, in Elegy for Young Lovers, Hans Werner Henze was in his twelve tone period and the opera is unlistenable but the libretto is a truly great libretto.
不幸的是，汉斯·维尔纳·亨策的《少年恋人挽歌》正处于他的十二音时期，歌剧难以听，但剧本确实是一部伟大的剧本。
The Bassarids is a great opera.
《巴萨尔》是一部伟大的歌剧。
It’s one of the three or four best operas of the last 50 years.
这是过去 50 年三四部最好的歌剧之一。
Having studied opera librettos and written quite a few of them yourself, how is it you feel you have a deeper appreciation of Auden?
您自己研究过歌剧剧本，也写过不少歌剧剧本，您觉得对奥登的欣赏有更深的体会吗？
Auden has always been a good role model, because Auden — We can think that Auden understood that if you were in the 18th century and you were a poet, you were writing lyric poems, ballads, verse epistles, satires, you are writing plays, you were writing song lyrics, in all these things.
奥登一直是一个很好的榜样，因为奥登——我们可以认为奥登明白，如果你在 18 世纪，你是一位诗人，你就在写抒情诗、民谣、韵文书信、讽刺诗，你在写戏剧，你在写歌词，在所有这些事情中。
He did not allow himself as a poet to become hyper specialized, where most poets today all they write are pieces of typography that are roughly one page long.
他不允许自己作为一名诗人变得过于专业，今天大多数诗人所写的都是大约一页长的排版。
You can write great poems that way, but I did not want to have a poetic life that was restricted to a narrow genre of the lyric poem written to be read silently on the page.
你可以用这种方式写出伟大的诗歌，但我不想过一种诗意的生活，这种生活被限制在一种狭隘的抒情诗体裁中，这种诗体是写在纸上默默阅读的。
Auden gave me the permission as it were to write libretti to write song lyrics, to work with jazz musicians, to do translations, to do long poems, and also, and this is what Bishop did too, to work in any style I wanted to.
奥登允许我写剧本、写歌词、与爵士音乐家合作、翻译、写长诗，而且，这也是毕肖普所做的，以我想要的任何风格工作。
You see this assumption right now that a poet finds a voice, a style and they just keep working in that same vein their whole career.
你现在看到这样的假设：诗人找到了一种声音、一种风格，他们在整个职业生涯中都以同样的方式继续工作。
Where I think that you should be open to any possibility of genre, of style, of form.
我认为你应该对流派、风格、形式的任何可能性持开放态度。
When you write a libretto for Nosferatu, as you’ve done, is that German Expressionism?
当你为《诺斯费拉图》写剧本时，就像你所做的那样，这是德国表现主义吗？
Is that an American Poetic Style?
这是美国诗风吗？
Is that Catholic?
Is that Catholic?
How do you place your own libretto?
你如何放置自己的剧本？
Tyler, it’s all of them because what I did was Nosferatu —Alva Henderson wanted to write an opera with me, but I couldn’t.
泰勒，都是他们，因为我所做的是《诺斯费拉图》——阿尔瓦·亨德森想和我一起写一部歌剧，但我不能。
He had an idea and I just didn’t like the idea.
他有一个想法，但我只是不喜欢这个想法。
I said, “Let me come up with an idea.” Then I happened to meet a film historian.
我说：“让我想出一个主意。”然后我碰巧遇到了一位电影史学家。
He died a few years, a wonderful guy named Gilberto Perez, he was a Cuban.
他去世几年后，一个名叫吉尔伯托·佩雷斯的好人，他是古巴人。
He had gone back to the original cut of Nosferatu, which was about half an hour longer than the one people to see.
他又回到了《诺斯费拉图》的原始剪辑，这比人们看到的要长大约半个小时。
When I saw it I said, “Gee, this reminds me of a 19th century opera,” because it’s not about the vampire.
当我看到它时，我说，“哎呀，这让我想起了一部 19 世纪的歌剧，”因为它不是关于吸血鬼的。
It’s about the suffering of this woman who’s trapped in this tragic drama.
这是关于这个被困在这场悲剧中的女人所遭受的痛苦的故事。
What is opera except the suffering of people with high voices.
除了高声疾呼的人的苦难，还有什么歌剧呢？
I was able to take the Murnau film, which he had stolen from Bram Stoker.
我拍下了穆瑙的胶卷，那是他从布拉姆·斯托克那里偷来的。
He couldn’t get the copyrights, so we borrowed it.
他拿不到版权，所以我们就借用了。
Then he overlaid Wagner.
Then he overlaid Wagner.
I took that.
我接受了。
I overlaid my own concern.
我掩盖了自己的担忧。
The opera is a kind of expressionist opera but which uses a lot of bel canto conventions, it’s deeply, deeply Catholic.
这部歌剧是一种表现主义歌剧，但使用了大量美声唱法，它是深深的天主教色彩。
I didn’t intend it to be Catholic, but somehow when you’re talking about the nature of evil, your theological assumptions come to the fore.
我本来不想让它成为天主教的，但不知怎的，当你谈论邪恶的本质时，你的神学假设就脱颖而出了。
I mostly wanted it to be dark and sexy and fascinating in its sinister quality.
我主要希望它是黑暗的、性感的、迷人的、险恶的。
What is the most difficult or most scarce skill in writing opera librettos?
创作歌剧剧本最难或最稀缺的技巧是什么？
Taking it seriously.
Taking it seriously.
I can’t tell you how bad most contemporary libretti are because there’s this assumption which is that you write something and the composer does all the work.
我无法告诉你大多数当代的剧本有多糟糕，因为有这样的假设：你写一些东西，作曲家完成所有的工作。
That’s not true.
那不是真的。
An opera needs to be as well written as a broadway musical.
歌剧需要像百老汇音乐剧一样写得好。
If you go to a broadway musical, if you go to a Cole Porter musical or Stephen Sondheim musical, much of the pleasure is in the language.
如果你去看百老汇音乐剧，如果你去看科尔·波特音乐剧或斯蒂芬·桑德海姆音乐剧，大部分的乐趣都在于语言。
I’ve had this experience again and again when they produce the operas I’ve written the libretti for, the singers come up to me and they go, “Your lyrics are so good.” What does that mean?
我一次又一次地有过这样的经历，当他们制作我写的剧本的歌剧时，歌手们走到我面前，说：“你的歌词真好。”这意味着什么？
I think it means this.
I think it means this.
When I was writing a poem for the page, all it had to do was to work on the page.
当我为页面写一首诗时，它所要做的就是在页面上工作。
When I write lyrics for an opera libretto, it has to work as a poem, it has to work as something that the composer can set to music, which means it has to be tight enough to have a form but not so tight that the composer can’t get into it.
当我为歌剧剧本写歌词时，它必须像一首诗一样工作，它必须像作曲家可以将其设定为音乐的东西一样工作，这意味着它必须足够紧凑以形成某种形式，但又不能太紧凑以至于作曲家无法融入其中。
There’s a third thing that I had never considered.
还有第三件事是我从未考虑过的。
The singer has to become your words for the duration of the performance.
在表演期间，歌手必须成为你的台词。
When the soprano walks on, she has to know who she is, who she was, what she wants, she has to inhabit your words.
当女高音继续前进时，她必须知道她是谁，她是谁，她想要什么，她必须住在你的话语中。
That’s what I think I got to be very good at, creating beautiful language that a singer could inhabit in the way that they can inhabit a great pop song.
我认为这就是我所擅长的，创造出歌手可以使用的优美语言，就像他们可以使用一首伟大的流行歌曲一样。
What do you think of the libretto for Jerome Kern’s Show Boat?
您如何看待杰罗姆·科恩 (Jerome Kern) 的《表演船》(Show Boat) 的歌词？
I think if you go to these classic musicals like Show Boat, they have tremendously fine lyrics.
我想如果你去看像《Show Boat》这样的经典音乐剧，你会发现它们的歌词非常好。
Annie Get Your Gun.
安妮拿起你的枪。
Who wouldn’t have wanted to write the lyrics for that show?
谁不想为那个节目写歌词？
I don’t find that as much in contemporary musicals, and I don’t find it hardly at all in contemporary operas.
我在当代音乐剧中很少发现这种情况，在当代歌剧中我也几乎没有发现这种情况。
The opera is what Wagner called a Gesamtkunstwerk, a combined artwork.
这部歌剧被瓦格纳称为 Gesamtkunstwerk，即一种综合艺术作品。
It combines stagecraft poetry, music, acting, et cetera, et cetera.
它结合了舞台艺术、诗歌、音乐、表演等等。
If you have one element of that combination that doesn’t work, the whole doesn’t work.
如果该组合中的一个元素不起作用，那么整个组合就不起作用。
In the same way that if you have a singer with a bad voice, opera doesn’t work.
就像如果歌手声音不好，歌剧就没法演一样。
I think that writing great lyrics is what makes a lot of musical theater from opera to cabaret either excellent or lousy.
我认为写出伟大的歌词是导致从歌剧到歌舞表演的许多音乐剧要么优秀要么糟糕的原因。
Was Joseph Kerman correct to suggest the Tristan was Wagner’s greatest most integrated work as a whole?
约瑟夫·克尔曼认为《特里斯坦》是瓦格纳最伟大、最完整的作品，这一说法正确吗？
In part because of the synthesis of ideas, music, lyrics, history.
部分原因是思想、音乐、歌词、历史的综合。
In abstract, I agree with him.
抽象地说，我同意他的观点。
I do think that there was a problem with Wagner.
我确实认为瓦格纳有问题。
I’ve always wanted to write an essay.
我一直想写一篇论文。
I’ve never written it called Slow Time Versus Fast Time.
我从来没有写过《慢时间与快时间》这本书。
I would take Verdi’s Rigoletto, where he just rushes through this thing and it puts you in an emotional frenzy.
我会选择威尔第的《弄臣》，他只是匆匆地讲完这件事，这会让你陷入情感上的疯狂。
Rigoletto is about as long as one act of Tristan, where Wagner slowed down time to give you a very different almost hypnotic effect of the music.
《弄臣》和《特里斯坦》的一幕差不多长，瓦格纳放慢了时间，给你一种截然不同的近乎催眠的音乐效果。
One’s emotional excitation, the other is a kind of hypnotic trance.
一个是情绪的兴奋，另一个是一种催眠的恍惚。
I feel that that hypnotic trance, it goes too slow in Parsifal.
我觉得《帕西法尔》里那种催眠般的恍惚，进展得太慢了。
For me I think something like Die Walküre and even these early operas like The Flying Dutchman, Fliegende Holländer, or Lohengrin do it in a timeframe that I find more natural to my own body rhythms.
对我来说，我认为像《女武神》这样的作品，甚至像《飞翔的荷兰人》、《漂泊的荷兰人》或《罗恩格林》这样的早期歌剧，都是在我发现更适合我自己的身体节奏的时间范围内完成的。
That being said, Tristan und Isolde is a masterpiece.
话虽这么说，《特里斯坦与伊索尔德》是一部杰作。
Is it plausible to believe that Verdi’s Otello is a greater work even dramatically than Shakespeare’s Othello?
是否可以相信威尔第的《奥赛罗》是一部比莎士比亚的《奥赛罗》更伟大的作品？
It’s certainly the equal of Shakespeare’s play.
这当然可以与莎士比亚的戏剧相媲美。
It has things that Shakespeare — It has the thing called the Credo, where Yago comes in and does a blasphemous parody of the Catholic Credo, which is I believe in one God, and he believes in a God of evil.
它有莎士比亚的东西——它有一个叫做信条的东西，雅戈进来并对天主教信条进行了亵渎的模仿，即我相信一位上帝，而他相信一位邪恶的上帝。
This is a moment, a theatrical moment that staggers you in the same way Ave Maria, Desdemona’s Ave Maria staggers you.
这是一个让你震惊的时刻，一个戏剧性的时刻，就像《万福玛丽亚，苔丝狄蒙娜》中的万福玛丽亚让你震惊一样。
I think it’s an equal work.
我认为这是一项平等的工作。
It’s hard to compare across genres, but Othello is the greatest of all the many distinguished Shakespearean operas, Falstaff being a close second.
很难在不同流派之间进行比较，但《奥赛罗》是众多著名莎士比亚歌剧中最伟大的一部，《福斯塔夫》紧随其后。
Falstaff also being a gerontologist’s miracle.
福斯塔夫也是老年学家的奇迹。
Opera that Verdi does when he’s 80 is a masterpiece, and it is different from his earlier operas.
威尔第80岁时创作的歌剧是一部杰作，与他早期的歌剧不同。
Clearly better than the The Merry Wives of Windsor, from my point of view.
从我的角度来看，显然比《温莎的风流娘儿们》更好。
It’s clearly better than the The Merry Wives of Windsor.
显然比《温莎的风流娘儿们》要好。
Not even a comparison in that case.
在这种情况下甚至没有比较。
On Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys
关于布莱恩·威尔逊和海滩男孩
How good a lyricist is Brian Wilson?
布莱恩·威尔逊 (Brian Wilson) 是一位多么出色的作词家？
Pretty good for what he did.
他所做的事情相当不错。
The Wilson family is from my hometown of Hawthorne.
威尔逊一家来自我的家乡霍桑。
In fact, my uncle Giacomo many years ago was called in for a carpentry assignment that he thought was ridiculous.
事实上，我的叔叔贾科莫多年前就被叫去执行一项他认为很荒谬的木工任务。
He came and he said, “I had the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen today.
他来了，他说：“我今天遇到了我见过的最愚蠢的事情。
There’s this guy, he made me pull out his rug and build a sandbox for his living room.
有一个人，他让我拿出他的地毯，为他的客厅建造一个沙箱。
That guy’s crazy.” We said, “What’s his name?” He says, “Wilson.” I have that, but I think the Beach Boys’ greatest songs from almost a decade are among the high points of American popular music.
那家伙疯了。”我们问：“他叫什么名字？”他说：“威尔逊。”我知道，但我认为海滩男孩近十年来最伟大的歌曲是美国流行音乐的巅峰之作。
They are at this moment especially valuable because they are in some ways the purest expressions of a personal and collective optimism that America had about, in a sense, the goodness of life, and we’ve lost that to our detriment.
它们在此时此刻尤其有价值，因为它们在某种程度上是美国对美好生活的个人和集体乐观主义最纯粹的表达，而我们已经失去了这种乐观主义，这对我们造成了损害。
For me, a lot of the songs are quite tragic and melancholic.
对我来说，很多歌曲都是相当悲惨和忧郁的。
That’s what I enjoy about them.
这就是我喜欢他们的地方。
That there’s the shiny surface but underneath, my goodness.
天哪，表面光鲜亮丽，但在下面。
Yes, but anything that reflects life — There is a Latin phrase which is Et in Arcadia ego: even in Eden, in paradise, in Arcadia, I am, which means death.
是的，但是任何反映生命的东西 —— 有一个拉丁短语，在阿卡迪亚自我中是Et：即使在伊甸园、在天堂、在阿卡迪亚，我也是，这意味着死亡。
These Renaissance painters would do these beautiful landscapes, but put a little skull under a bush somewhere that you could see.
这些文艺复兴时期的画家会画这些美丽的风景画，但会在你能看到的灌木丛下放一个小头骨。
I think that all great happy art has an undercut of sadness and any artist has to, in a sense, reconcile the sorrows, the sadness of it.
我认为所有伟大的快乐艺术都有悲伤的底线，从某种意义上说，任何艺术家都必须调和悲伤和悲伤。
In Brian Wilson’s case, that becomes an increasing theme and I think eventually a paralyzing theme for him, quite literally.
在布莱恩·威尔逊的例子中，这成为一个日益增长的主题，我认为最终对他来说是一个瘫痪的主题，毫不夸张地说。
Is Brian Wilson still great in the 1970 to ’73 period, say from Sunflower to Love You, or do you think by the end he’s fallen apart?
从《向日葵》到《爱你》，布莱恩·威尔逊在 1970 至 73 年间仍然很伟大，还是你认为他到最后已经崩溃了？
He’s become a different kind of artist and I think you — If you love an artist, you are interested in everything they do, but I don’t think that that later work is the entry point into Brian Wilson, versus his transformation of the popular song, and his creation of a genre.
他已经成为一种不同类型的艺术家，我认为你 —— 如果你喜欢一个艺术家，你会对他们所做的一切感兴趣，但我不认为后来的作品是进入布莱恩·威尔逊的切入点，而不是他对流行歌曲的转变，以及他对流派的创造。
Also, he did as much as any artist in terms of creating a vision of California.
此外，在创造加州的愿景方面，他和任何艺术家一样做了很多工作。
Which is to say, a vision of California as the American dream.
也就是说，加州的美国梦。
This is what the great historian Kevin Starr did in a seven-volume history of California, explaining that.
伟大的历史学家凯文·斯塔尔在七卷本的加州历史中就是这样解释的。
I asked Kevin why he never did the last volume because he ends in the early ’60s, and he says, “He didn’t have the heart to have the dream fall apart.”
我问凯文为什么他没有完成最后一卷，因为它结束于 60 年代初，他说，“他不忍心让梦想破灭。”
As a Californian, I guarantee you it has happened alas.
作为一名加州人，我向你保证，这件事已经发生了。
You still live there, right?
You still live there, right?
Well, this is where I’m from.
嗯，这就是我来自的地方。
I’m the last Jew to leave Nazi Germany, this is my home.
我是最后一个离开纳粹德国的犹太人，这是我的家。
This is where I know every tree I know every bird, where I’m part of the history of it and so, it’s still a wonderful place to live, don’t get me wrong, but the detrimental aspects of California economically, culturally educationally have been so extreme in the last 15–20 years.
在这里，我认识每一棵树，我认识每只鸟，我是它历史的一部分，所以，它仍然是一个美好的居住地，不要误会我的意思，但在过去的 15-20 年里，加州经济、文化和教育方面的不利方面是如此极端。
It’s heartbreaking for people here.
It’s heartbreaking for people here.
Were The Three Stooges funny?
《三个臭皮匠》有趣吗？
They certainly were when I was a kid.
They certainly were when I was a kid.
I still rather — I’ll watch 15–20 minutes of The Three Stooges every time I can, but I prefer Buster Keaton, and Laurel and Hardy.
我还是宁愿 —— 只要有时间我就会看15-20分钟的《三个臭皮匠》，但我更喜欢巴斯特·基顿、劳雷尔和哈代。
W.
W.
C.
C.
Fields, or not?
字段，还是不字段？
I adore the W.
我很喜欢W。
C.
C.
Fields.
字段。
The Bank Dick is a great movie.
The Bank Dick is a great movie.
I think my wife just rolls her eyes because if there’s the W.
我想我的妻子只是翻了个白眼，因为如果有 W.
C.
C.
Fields movie on, I’ll watch it till the end.
Fields movie on, I’ll watch it till the end.
It was the one — It’s a gift, where he’s trying to sleep on the balcony and the salesman goes, “Isn’t Carl Lefong here?
就是这个—— 这是一份礼物，他正想睡在阳台上，推销员说：“卡尔·勒丰不在吗？
Capital L, small e, capital F, small o, small n, and small g.
大写 L、小写 e、大写 F、小写 o、小写 n 和小写 g。
W.
W.
C.
C.
Fields milks that thing for about five minutes and it’s wonderful, but I didn’t understand when I was young that both Laurel and Hardy and W.
菲尔兹挤了大约五分钟的奶，这真是太棒了，但我年轻时并不明白劳雷尔、哈代和 W.
C.
C.
Fields, the fundamental comic idea under them, is how thwarted we are getting through the ordinary business of our day.
菲尔兹的基本喜剧思想是我们在日常事务中遇到的挫折。
When I was young I just saw the jokes, the slapdash elements of it, but now I understand there’s an existential humor under this where W.
当我年轻的时候，我只看到其中的笑话和草率的元素，但现在我明白了，W.
C.
C.
Fields can’t get a cup of coffee without trouble, can’t take a nap without trouble.
菲尔兹无法轻松地喝到一杯咖啡，也无法轻松地小睡。
Which is the most underrated art museum in the world?
世界上最被低估的艺术博物馆是哪家？
Oh it’s a hard one, I think it’s probably the Hermitage because you can never see two-thirds of the art, and so there’s usually some huge portion that’s out on loan somewhere so, who can actually assess how magnificent even after they sold it to Lisbon and Washington DC in large quantities, it’s this great unknowable museum.
哦，这很难，我想这可能是艾尔米塔什博物馆，因为你永远看不到三分之二的艺术品，所以通常会有很大一部分在某个地方被借出，所以，即使在它们大量出售给里斯本和华盛顿特区之后，谁又能真正评估它有多么宏伟，这是一个伟大的不可知的博物馆。
The finest really small museum, and that’s perhaps what you ask, the museum that nobody goes to, is this weird gallery at Bob Jones University.
最好的小型博物馆，也许你会问，没有人去的博物馆，就是鲍勃·琼斯大学的这个奇怪的画廊。
Bob Jones, Jr. for years simply bought old masters when they were $700 and he has this incredible collection, or he had, he’s dead now.
小鲍勃·琼斯（Bob Jones, Jr.）多年来只是以 700 美元的价格购买了早期大师的作品，而他拥有这些令人难以置信的收藏，或者说他曾经拥有过，但他现在已经死了。
The university has this incredible collection of Italian Baroque art, which they don’t really want people to come in and see.
这所大学拥有令人难以置信的意大利巴洛克艺术收藏，但他们并不想让人们进来参观。
In fact, when you go there, they have a warning sign that saying you have to understand that these paintings exhibit some of the heresies of the Catholic church or have these terrible Catholic tendencies, but you go there and it’s just chock a block with this stuff and no one’s ever seen.
事实上，当你去那里时，他们有一个警告标志，说你必须明白这些画展示了天主教会的一些异端，或者有这些可怕的天主教倾向，但你去那里，它只是塞满了这些东西，没有人见过。
Very few people get in.
很少有人进去。
It took me a long time just to be able to get into it.
我花了很长时间才能够进入其中。
I’ve never been able to get into their chapel to see the art there.
我从来没能进入他们的教堂欣赏那里的艺术品。
We were together in Paris, I think it was 2005 and the topic of Hieronymus Bosch came up, and you knew off the top of your head the location of each fully intact Bosch painting in the world.
我们一起在巴黎，我想那是 2005 年，希罗尼穆斯·博斯 (Hieronymus Bosch) 的话题出现了，你立刻就知道世界上每幅完整的博斯画作的位置。
It took you about five seconds to realize the final one was in Lisbon.
你花了大约五秒钟才意识到最后一站是在里斯本。
Temptation of St. Anthony, as you may recall.
Temptation of St. Anthony, as you may recall.
How was it that you knew that?
How was it that you knew that?
Well as a kid I still know this weird stuff.
Well as a kid I still know this weird stuff.
As a kid, I was hungry for beauty and so I went to the Hawthorne Public Library, which is a monument to the good effects of political graft.
小时候，我渴望美丽，所以我去了霍桑公共图书馆，这是政治腐败良好影响的纪念碑。
Somebody was on the take and so they built an enormous library and they put ten times as many books as Hawthorne needed, and I read and studied everyone in art.
有人接受了，所以他们建造了一个巨大的图书馆，他们收藏的书籍是霍桑所需的十倍，我阅读并研究了艺术领域的每个人。
I would go there and I would make lists of these things, and I am still to this day, most of my trips are to see art museums, and I see them again and again and again and again.
我会去那里，我会列出这些东西，直到今天我仍然如此，我的大部分旅行都是参观艺术博物馆，我一次又一次地看到它们。
The last trip I took internationally was Madrid and I took my kids there as well as a nephew, and they thought I was crazy.
我最后一次国际旅行是马德里，我带着我的孩子和侄子去了那里，他们认为我疯了。
Every day I was in the Prado, or I was in the Thyssen-Bornemisza museum day after day after day, and I said, there’s not that much else I want to see there, but I want to see the Bosch again and again, I want to see the Velazquez.
我每天都在普拉多，或者日复一日地在蒂森-博内米萨博物馆，我说，那里没什么我想看的东西，但我想一次又一次地看到博斯，我想看到委拉斯开兹。
To me, it’s my pleasure and I love going to these forgotten museums that have one or two great paintings.
对我来说，这是我的荣幸，我喜欢去这些被遗忘的博物馆，里面有一两幅伟大的画作。
“The Wedding Dance,” 1566, Pieter Bruegel the Elder.
《婚礼之舞》，1566 年，老彼得·勃鲁盖尔。
Credit: Detroit Institute of Arts
Credit: Detroit Institute of Arts
One of the things I really want to do is I want to go back to Detroit, to see their Museum of Fine Arts, which is one of the greatest collections in America, and usually when you go there, half of its closed.
我真正想做的事情之一是我想回到底特律，参观他们的美术博物馆，这是美国最伟大的收藏之一，通常当你去那里时，一半的博物馆都关门了。
It’s like the Hermitage.
It’s like the Hermitage.
You have to go there a couple of times to be able to see, and they also have one of the great Bruegels there, but anyway.
你必须去那里几次才能看到，那里也有一位伟大的勃鲁盖尔的作品，但无论如何。
I love this and I feel that I’m a verbal artist, but there is an extraordinary intellectual, emotional, and spiritual power that the greatest paintings have.
我喜欢这个，我觉得我是一个语言艺术家，但最伟大的绘画所具有的非凡的智力、情感和精神力量。
If you put yourself in their presence, they unlock and awaken things inside of you.
如果你把自己置于他们的面前，他们就会解锁并唤醒你内心的事物。
Let me give you one other fine museum people don’t know about, which is that in Balboa Park, which is arguably the most beautiful public space in California.
让我告诉你另一个人们不知道的精美博物馆，那就是位于巴尔博亚公园的博物馆，它可以说是加州最美丽的公共空间。
There’s this ugly modernist building, tiny awful little thing in this awful little moat that is a blemish on the entire park.
有一座丑陋的现代主义建筑，在这条可怕的小护城河中，是一个可怕的小东西，是整个公园的一个污点。
It’s the Timken gallery, which is only six rooms, and every room is full of fantastic paintings, and when I’m there, there’s usually three or four other people there, people don’t know about it.
这是铁姆肯画廊，只有六个房间，每个房间都充满了奇妙的画作，当我在那里时，通常还有三四个人在那里，人们不知道。
There’s a Bosch, there’s a Bosch there too.
There’s a Bosch, there’s a Bosch there too.
The Huntington I thought you might say, the Gulbenkian in Lisbon, the Nicholas Roerich Museum in New York City.
我想你可能会说亨廷顿博物馆、里斯本的古尔本基博物馆、纽约市的尼古拉斯罗里奇博物馆。
I love the Roerich.
我喜欢罗里奇。
Hardly anyone goes there.
Hardly anyone goes there.
I guess that’s technically a museum…
I guess that’s technically a museum…
We used to do a reading series in the Roerich Museum and I loved it because you were surrounded by the paintings of this Russian mystic, and it almost looked as if you were doing a production meeting for lost horizons in terms of describing Shangri-La.
我们曾经在罗里奇博物馆举办过一系列阅读活动，我很喜欢它，因为你被这位俄罗斯神秘主义者的画作所包围，在描述香格里拉方面，它看起来就像是在为失去的地平线开一个制作会议。
The Huntington is the greatest collection of English paintings outside of England, and it’s on 200 acres of gardens, so it’s wonderful but it’s pretty well known.
亨廷顿美术馆是英格兰以外最伟大的英国绘画收藏馆，占地 200 英亩的花园，非常精彩，但也相当出名。
A lot of people have never been there because it’s not in Downtown Los Angeles.
很多人从未去过那里，因为它不在洛杉矶市中心。
If you’re a tourist, it’s a bit of effort to get to it.
如果你是游客，到达那里需要花费一些力气。
Certainly crowded when I go there.
我去那里的时候肯定很拥挤。
I have a house in South Pasadena now.
我现在在南帕萨迪纳有一所房子。
When we’re there, my wife and I who are members of the Huntington, and as you probably know, I have donated my archive to the Huntington Library, which is one of the great American institutions, also one of the great stories of American culture.
当我们在那里时，我和我的妻子都是亨廷顿图书馆的成员，正如你可能知道的那样，我已将我的档案捐赠给亨廷顿图书馆，这是美国最伟大的机构之一，也是美国文化的伟大故事之一。
I’ve given them my archive.
我已经把我的档案给了他们。
We go there walking in the mornings, and it’s extraordinarily beautiful also great for birdwatching, and all the plants and flowers pretty much if you find that are labeled, so you will see thousands of plants and flowers.
我们早上去那里散步，那里非常美丽，也非常适合观鸟，而且所有的植物和花卉几乎都带有标签，所以你会看到成千上万的植物和花卉。
On what’s wrong with Western art museums
西方艺术博物馆的问题出在哪里
Putting aside whatever one might think of contemporary art, take that as a separate issue, but what is the main thing wrong with Western art museums today?
抛开人们对当代艺术的看法，将其作为一个单独的问题，但当今西方艺术博物馆的主要问题是什么？
Well, right now, American art museums, Western art museums are going through a destructive period of self-doubt.
那么现在，美国艺术博物馆、西方艺术博物馆正在经历一个自我怀疑的破坏性时期。
Now, if you think of what a museum is, a museum is a conservation technology.
现在，如果你想想博物馆是什么，博物馆就是一种保护技术。
The museum is a relatively modern creation.
该博物馆是一个相对现代的建筑。
It really happens only after the French revolution when they decide that when they grab the emperor’s urban palace, which is the Louvre, and that they will bring all of the art that they’ve taken from the aristocracy and the royalty, and put it there and allow people to come in.
这种情况只有在法国大革命之后才会发生，当时他们决定，当他们占领皇帝的城市宫殿，即卢浮宫时，他们将从贵族和皇室那里夺走的所有艺术品都拿来，放在那里并允许人们进入。
They also created the earliest version of the NEA because they took the upper apartments and they made them free rent for artists.
他们还创建了NEA的最早版本，因为他们占用了上层公寓，并为艺术家提供免费租金。
After a number of years, they realized that was a bad idea.
几年后，他们意识到这是一个坏主意。
That’s a whole separate topic.
这是一个完全独立的话题。
Then because of that, the Habsburg emperor in Vienna said, “Well, I should have got my people come in and see my collection.” Then it began to happen to The Uffizi in Florence and in Madrid.
正因为如此，维也纳的哈布斯堡皇帝说：“好吧，我应该让我的人民进来看看我的收藏。”然后，佛罗伦萨和马德里的乌菲兹美术馆也开始出现这种情况。
You look at this, it’s really only slightly more than 200 years old.
你看这个，真的只有200多岁了。
What we’re trying to do is to preserve the best of the past and let people into it.
我们正在努力做的是保留过去最好的东西并让人们参与其中。
Museums today now say, “Well, we are vehicles of cultural change.
今天的博物馆说：“嗯，我们是文化变革的载体。
We don’t want to be hemmed down by the past,” and things like this.
我们不想被过去所束缚，”诸如此类的事情。
I think it’s a misunderstanding of their basic function.
我认为这是对它们基本功能的误解。
There are art spaces for this.
为此有艺术空间。
There are exhibitions, there are galleries.
有展览，有画廊。
There are kunsthalle, in German, it’s a wonderful term, an art hall.
这里有kunsthalle，德语里这是一个很棒的词，艺术殿堂。
No collection, but we exhibit art there.
没有收藏，但我们在那里展示艺术品。
That’s where that should happen.
这就是应该发生的地方。
It breaks my heart to see museums sell their best paintings to raise money to, first of all, cover the deficits of their own bad management.
看到博物馆出售最好的画作来筹集资金，首先是为了弥补自身管理不善的赤字，我感到很伤心。
This has happened, the Albright-Knox in Buffalo did this shamefully ahead of everybody else.
这种事已经发生了，布法罗的奥尔布赖特-诺克斯比其他人更可耻地做了这件事。
The Berkshire Museum did it shamefully.
伯克希尔博物馆的做法可耻。
Now, it’s universal because they need money and to buy works that are more socially proactive.
现在，它已变得普遍，因为他们需要钱并购买更具社会积极性的作品。
I think that if they want to buy socially proactive works, have their board buy them, don’t sell your existing collection.
我认为，如果他们想购买具有社会积极意义的作品，请让他们的董事会购买它们，而不是出售您现有的收藏。
These places will never be able to get them back.
这些地方永远无法让他们回来。
If you walk to the men’s room in most museums, there’s a lot of blank, white space on the wall.
如果你走进大多数博物馆的男洗手间，你会发现墙上有很多空白的空间。
Should they be putting pictures out there?
他们应该把照片放在那里吗？
That’s a cultural question.
这是一个文化问题。
Probably not.
可能不会。
I think, first of all, because it’s not honorable — rightly or wrongly.
我认为，首先，因为它不光荣——无论正确还是错误。
Secondly, it’s nice to have a white space in the museum to give your eyes a break.
其次，博物馆里有一个白色的空间可以让你的眼睛休息一下，这很好。
How would you restructure the Vatican Museum?
您将如何重建梵蒂冈博物馆？
Oh, God.
哦，上帝。
Talk about the Hermitage being inaccessible.
谈论冬宫是难以进入的。
No one sees the Raphael rooms, the Raphael Stanze.
没有人看到拉斐尔房间、拉斐尔斯坦兹。
I think what the Vatican should do, is to take their Pinacoteca, which is their gallery, and probably their classical collection, and create a new museum outside of the Vatican.
我认为梵蒂冈应该做的就是拿走他们的画廊，可能还有他们的古典藏品，在梵蒂冈之外创建一个新的博物馆。
The physical structure of the Vatican cannot support the millions of people that visit there.
梵蒂冈的物质结构无法支撑数百万人参观。
If you think about this, in most years, Rome is the most widely visited tourist location in the world and the Vatican is the number one attraction in Rome.
如果你想一想，在大多数年份里，罗马是世界上访问量最大的旅游地点，梵蒂冈是罗马的第一大景点。
It makes St. Peter’s and everything else inaccessible.
它使得圣彼得大教堂和其他一切地方都难以进入。
I do think that they should build a new museum for the core of their collection.
我确实认为他们应该为他们的核心收藏建造一个新的博物馆。
They could raise a lot of money that, and take better care of the art.
他们可以筹集大量资金，并更好地保护艺术品。
Is Andy Warhol an effective Catholic artist?
安迪·沃霍尔是一位出色的天主教艺术家吗？
It depends on what you mean by a Catholic artist.
这取决于你所说的天主教艺术家是什么意思。
He is a Catholic artist in that he recognizes the power of the iconic image and the incarnational quality of art.
他是一位天主教艺术家，因为他认识到标志性图像的力量和艺术的化身品质。
That being said, if you ask, what he does so well, is it worth doing?
话虽如此，如果你问，他做什么事做得这么好，值得做吗？
I’m not sure a lot of it is.
我不确定很多都是这样。
I think of him as a kind of brilliant eccentric artist, and the Catholicism gives a certain weight to his art, but he would not be on my shortlist of great artists of the 20th century.
我认为他是一位才华横溢、古怪的艺术家，天主教对他的艺术也给予了一定的重视，但他不会出现在我的20世纪伟大艺术家的候选名单上。
What is the most significant work by Ray Bradbury?
雷·布拉德伯里最重要的作品是什么？
Ray Bradbury for 10 years wrote a series of books almost at the rate of one per year that transformed not only American science fiction, but American popular culture, including two tremendously interesting novels, Fahrenheit 451 and The Martian Chronicles.
雷·布拉德伯里用了 10 年的时间几乎以每年一本的速度写了一系列书籍，这些书籍不仅改变了美国科幻小说，也改变了美国流行文化，其中包括两本非常有趣的小说：《华氏 451 度》和《火星编年史》。
I think his greatness, however, is in his short stories.
然而，我认为他的伟大之处在于他的短篇小说。
If you took his 10 best short stories things like A Sound of Thunder, Pedestrian, they are extraordinary.
如果你看他最好的十篇短篇小说，比如《雷霆之声》、《行人》，它们都是非凡的。
They create a kind of sensibility that then became encoded in our culture through The Twilight Zone that expanded the possibilities of American literature.
他们创造了一种情感，然后通过《暮光之城》将这种情感编码到我们的文化中，扩大了美国文学的可能性。
What do Martians have to do to seek redemption?
火星人必须做什么才能寻求救赎？
That’s a question Bradbury asked in The Fire Balloons.
这是布拉德伯里在《火气球》中提出的问题。
They’re pure energy.
它们是纯粹的能量。
What can they do?
他们能做什么？
We asked our eighth-grade nun if there were people on the other planets, would they have to get baptized, and would they go to heaven and hell?
我们问我们的八年级修女，如果其他星球上也有人，他们是否必须接受洗礼，他们会去天堂还是地狱？
She answered the question brilliantly, I thought.
我认为她很好地回答了这个问题。
She says, “Well, if there are people on other planets, if they fail the way Adam and Eve did, they would need redemption and God would need to redeem them.”
她说：“好吧，如果其他星球上还有人，如果他们像亚当和夏娃那样失败，他们就需要救赎，上帝也需要救赎他们。”
The first question we have to ask, are they an unfallen race?
我们要问的第一个问题是，他们是一个未曾堕落的种族吗？
I think generally we’ve looked at the Martians as an unfallen race.
我认为一般来说，我们将火星人视为一个未曾堕落的种族。
They are the noble savage.
他们是高贵的野蛮人。
They are the identic creatures except in H.G.
除了 H.G. 之外，它们是相同的生物。
Wells.
威尔斯。
What do you view as the implicit theology of the original Star Trek series?
您认为原版《星际迷航》系列中隐含的神学是什么？
Is it in fact secular as it pretends to be or not?
它实际上是否像它假装的那样世俗？
I think of it as Jungian and what it is doing is creating the archetypal journey of the young hero towards discovering his own strengths part of which is finding his anima and his animus.
我认为它是荣格式的，它正在做的是创造年轻英雄发现自己优势的原型之旅，其中一部分就是找到他的阿尼玛和他的阿尼姆斯。
Darth Vader, some would say it has Jung on his uniform, he is the shadow of the hero’s personality and the hero has to confront and eventually control or even his shadow.
达斯·维德，有人会说他的制服上有荣格，他是英雄个性的影子，英雄必须面对并最终控制甚至他的影子。
I think it’s a Jungian work rather than a Christian work.
我认为这是一部荣格的作品而不是一部基督教的作品。
Why is Olaf Stapledon an important writer?
为什么奥拉夫·斯特普尔顿是一位重要的作家？
It’s not a question I expected.
这不是我所期望的问题。
How could you not expect that?
你怎么能不期待呢？
Well, first of all, I hope people know who Olaf Stapleton was.
好吧，首先，我希望人们知道奥拉夫·斯台普顿是谁。
Tremendously influential, rather clumsy, visionary, early science fiction writer who wrote novels like Odd John and the First and Last Man.
极具影响力、相当笨拙、有远见的早期科幻小说作家，写过《奇怪的约翰》和《第一个人与最后一个人》等小说。
What Olaf Stapleton did was I think he was the first really great science fiction writer to think in absolutely cosmic terms, beyond human conceptions of time and space.
奥拉夫·斯泰普尔顿所做的是，我认为他是第一个真正伟大的科幻小说作家，他以绝对宇宙的角度思考，超越了人类的时间和空间概念。
That, essentially, created the mature science fiction sensibility.
从本质上讲，这创造了成熟的科幻小说情感。
If you go even watch a show like Expanse now, it’s about Stapledonian concerns.
如果你现在去看像《太空无垠》这样的节目，你会发现这是关于斯台普尔顿式的担忧。
He was also a Hegelian philosopher, as you know.
如您所知，他也是一位黑格尔哲学家。
My friend Dan Wang thinks Last and First Men is better than Star Maker.
我的朋友王丹认为《最后的先人》比《造星者》更好。
Though virtually all critics prefer Star Maker.
尽管几乎所有评论家都更喜欢《造星者》。
Michael Lind, the political writer, and historian, Stapledon is one of his formative writers.
迈克尔·林德（Michael Lind）是一位政治作家和历史学家，斯特普尔顿是他的影响力作家之一。
Star Maker is kind of an evolution of the Last and First Men.
《造星者》是《最后的人类》和《最初的人类》的进化版。
Odd John is kind of the odd, the first great mutant novel.
《奇怪的约翰》有点奇怪，是第一部伟大的变种人小说。
Did Anthony Burgess ever write a truly great book or was he always falling short in some sense?
安东尼·伯吉斯是否写过一本真正伟大的书，或者他在某种意义上总是达不到要求？
That’s a real good question.
这是一个非常好的问题。
I love Anthony Burgess.
我爱安东尼·伯吉斯。
When I interviewed Burgess in about 1979, I said, “I’ve read 19 of your books.” He said, “That’s too many.” What you have with Burgess is you’re always feeling he’s on the verge of his great novel.
大约 1979 年，当我采访伯吉斯时，我说：“我读过你的 19 本书。”他说：“太多了。”伯吉斯的特点是，你总是感觉他正处于他伟大小说的边缘。
I think that perhaps Earthly Powers was his great novel because he takes the form of a Somerset Maugham novel, and he overlays a mafia novel, a religious novel, a Bildungsroman all in that.
我认为《尘世的力量》也许是他伟大的小说，因为他采用了萨默塞特·毛姆小说的形式，并在其中叠加了一部黑手党小说、一部宗教小说、一部成长小说。
I think it works.
我认为它有效。
I think it works from the first page to the last page.
我认为它从第一页到最后一页都有效。
Isn’t the first sentence something like, “I was in bed with my catamite when the papal nuncio rang”?
第一句话不是类似“教皇大使响铃时我正在和我的卡塔米特床上”吗？
To me, it’s the memoir that I think is best, which, strikingly, is not a novel.
对我来说，这是我认为最好的回忆录，但令人惊讶的是，它不是小说。
I think he’d been better off had he not been a novelist and done something else and written.
我认为，如果他不是一名小说家并从事其他工作并写作的话，他会过得更好。
Anthony Burgess is like D.
安东尼·伯吉斯就像 D.
H.
H.
Lawrence.
劳伦斯.
D.
D .
H.
H.
Lawrence is without question a great writer.
劳伦斯无疑是一位伟大的作家。
The question is, did he ever write a great novel?
问题是，他写过一部伟大的小说吗？
He wrote great short stories, but most of the novels have problems.
他写了很棒的短篇小说，但大多数小说都有问题。
Burgess is the same way, but the fact about Burgess is that almost every page is alive.
伯吉斯也是如此，但关于伯吉斯的事实是，几乎每一页都是活的。
I’ve read Inside Enderby, the Enderby novels, three times and they never failed to amuse me.
我读过恩德比小说《恩德比内部》三遍，它们总是让我觉得很有趣。
Clockwork Orange, I’ve read maybe three times.
发条橙，我大概读了三遍。
I think you’re right, but I think Earthly Powers may be a good thing.
我认为你是对的，但我认为地球力量可能是一件好事。
His biography is stunning, and his self-criticism and his self-discovery, plus the interestingness of his life.
他的传记令人惊叹，他的自我批评和自我发现，以及他生活的有趣之处。
Is György Lukács an interesting thinker?
吉尔吉·卢卡奇是一位有趣的思想家吗？
Lukács is, to me, the most interesting Marxist critic, except for Marx.
对我来说，卢卡奇是除马克思之外最有趣的马克思主义批评家。
What Lukács understood was — Lukács wrote a book, which I think has one of the dullest titles you can imagine, called History and Class Consciousness.
卢卡奇的理解是——卢卡奇写了一本书，我认为这本书的书名是你能想象到的最乏味的书名，书名是《历史与阶级意识》。
In History and Class Consciousness, Lukács gave an analysis of institutional history.
卢卡奇在《历史与阶级意识》一书中对制度历史进行了分析。
Fundamentally, it’s one of my basic concepts and understanding of the world.
从根本上来说，这是我对世界的基本概念和理解之一。
He says that humans create an institution, you can say, it’s the legal system for a social use called justice.
他说人类创造了一个制度，你可以说，它是一个社会用途的法律体系，叫做正义。
As the legal system develops and develops and begins to find a way of becoming internally consistent, it has less and less to do with justice because it’s more concerned, in a sense, about being a self-contained, rational enterprise.
随着法律体系不断发展并开始找到一种内部一致的方法，它与正义的关系越来越小，因为从某种意义上说，它更关心成为一个独立的、理性的企业。
I think that literary studies in the university reached this point maybe 50 years ago, where, in creating internal cohesion and internal structure, they had less and less to do with literature and almost nothing to do with the human purposes of literature.
我想大学里的文学研究大概在50年前就达到了这个地步，在创造内部凝聚力和内部结构时，它们与文学的关系越来越小，几乎与文学的人类目的无关。
Also, Lukács’s analysis of the 19th-century novel is fantastic.
此外，卢卡奇对这部 19 世纪小说的分析也非常精彩。
I reread him a few weeks ago, his discussion of Tolstoy and Balzac, and I found it absolutely illuminating.
几周前，我重读了他对托尔斯泰和巴尔扎克的讨论，我发现它绝对具有启发性。
His piece on Dostoyevsky, too.
他的作品也是关于陀思妥耶夫斯基的。
What’s your favorite Tolstoy short story or short fiction?
您最喜欢的托尔斯泰短篇小说或短篇小说是什么？
Death of Ivan Ilyich, which, I think — First of all, if you asked me who was the greatest fiction writer who ever lived, I would say Tolstoy.
伊凡·伊里奇之死，我认为 —— 首先，如果你问我谁是有史以来最伟大的小说家，我会说托尔斯泰。
His short stories are full of masterpieces, but the Death of Ivan Ilyich is simply one of the greatest considerations of human mortality and human limitation that I’ve ever read and reread and reread again.
他的短篇小说充满了杰作，但《伊凡·伊里奇之死》只是我读过、读过、再读过的关于人类死亡和人类局限性的最伟大的思考之一。
I might say Hadji Murat, though, because Ilyich is such a linear tale and Hadji Murat has the satire going on.
不过，我可能会说哈吉·穆拉特，因为《伊里奇》是一个线性故事，而哈吉·穆拉特则在讽刺。
It’s all about historical construction of reputation, deflating egos.
这都是关于声誉的历史建构、自我贬低。
It’s a masterpiece and very few people have read it.
这是一部杰作，但读过的人却很少。
Master and Man is another one.
师父与人是另一回事。
My family does a thing every year where we pick a book and we all read it together.
我的家人每年都会做一件事，我们挑选一本书，然后一起阅读。
We did Dostoyevsky’s The Idiot, right now we’re reading Cousin Bette by Balzac, we did The Red and the Black, we did Catch-22, but we all agree that the greatest thing we’ve ever read together was Anna Karenina.
我们读了陀思妥耶夫斯基的《白痴》，现在我们正在读巴尔扎克的《贝蒂表姐》，我们读了《红与黑》，我们读了《第二十二条军规》，但我们都同意，我们一起读过的最伟大的东西是《安娜·卡列尼娜》。
Nothing else can hold its own against the greatness of that novel.
没有什么可以与这部小说的伟大相抗衡。
On Catholicism
论天主教
I have a few questions about Catholicism.
我有几个关于天主教的问题。
Why is singing less central to Catholic worship?
为什么歌唱在天主教礼拜中不再那么重要？
Catholic worship, this is a limitation, was really about chant, originally.
天主教礼拜，这是一个限制，最初实际上是关于圣歌的。
It was about the people who were performing the rites of the sacrifices chanting and the people around them chanting.
这是关于进行祭祀仪式的人们的诵经以及他们周围的人的诵经。
It was in Latin, which became increasingly distant from the vulgate of the various populations.
它是用拉丁语写的，它与不同人群的通俗语言越来越疏远。
By the time that the Reformation came around, there was this great gap between, in a sense, a sacramental religion and what the Protestants invented, which was a charismatic religion.
到宗教改革到来时，某种意义上，圣礼宗教与新教徒发明的灵恩宗教之间存在着巨大的差距。
Catholicism has never really caught up with that if Catholics suffer for their sins by going to mass and hearing the music.
如果天主教徒通过参加弥撒和听音乐来为自己的罪孽受苦，那么天主教从未真正赶上这一点。
How has that shaped Catholic poetry, that different musical tradition?
这如何塑造了天主教诗歌和不同的音乐传统？
Catholic poetry is completely shaped by the sacraments.
天主教诗歌完全是由圣礼塑造的。
The sacraments are outward signs that symbolize inward changes or inward turns of grace, which means that a Catholic sees everything that happens in two ways: in a physical way and a metaphysical way, in a temporal way and an eternal way, with all of the mysterious connections between that.
圣礼是象征内在变化或内在恩典转向的外在标志，这意味着天主教徒以两种方式看待发生的一切：以物理方式和形而上学方式，以暂时方式和永恒方式，以及它们之间所有神秘的联系。
Even up to my generation, and even some of the younger ones, we were raised with Latin, which means that we hear, when we speak English, the echoes of an ancient language.
即使到了我这一代，甚至一些更年轻的人，我们也是在拉丁语中长大的，这意味着当我们说英语时，我们听到的是一种古老语言的回声。
There was a continuity in Hawthorne, California, hometown of both Dana Gioia and Brian Wilson, when I was growing up, between a working-class kid there and the court of Augustus Caesar and Virgil and Horace.
在我成长的过程中，加利福尼亚州霍桑市是达纳·乔亚和布莱恩·威尔逊的家乡，那里的工人阶级孩子与奥古斯都·凯撒、维吉尔和贺拉斯的宫廷之间存在着连续性。
The language spoken by the Roman legions in Palestine was not particularly different from what was being recited and sung in hymns in Hawthorne, California.
巴勒斯坦罗马军团使用的语言与加利福尼亚州霍桑市赞美诗中背诵和演唱的语言并没有特别不同。
That was a cultural gift that was at least as good for me as getting a Stanford BA and a Harvard MA.
这是一份文化礼物，对我来说至少和获得斯坦福大学学士学位和哈佛大学硕士学位一样好。
What is the strongest presence of Catholicism in the American fine arts today or recently?
今天或最近美国美术中天主教最强烈的存在是什么？
Movies.
电影。
The Italian-American filmmakers like Coppola, Scorsese, Cimino, in a sense, brought a dark Catholic worldview into American popular culture.
从某种意义上说，科波拉、斯科塞斯、西米诺等意大利裔美国电影制片人将黑暗的天主教世界观带入了美国流行文化。
Things like Mean Streets, The Godfather, The Deer Hunter.
比如《穷街陋巷》、《教父》、《猎鹿人》。
How about Catholic Asian cinema, so John Woo.
天主教亚洲电影怎么样，比如吴宇森。
The films in the ’90s, highly Catholic, very successful.
90年代的电影，高度天主教化，非常成功。
I find them interesting, but they don’t speak to me in theological terms.
我觉得它们很有趣，但它们并没有用神学术语对我说话。
How about Chan-wook Park?
朴赞郁呢？
Oldboy?
老男孩？
Sin, redemption, suffering?
罪恶、救赎、苦难？
They are, but the question is, when you begin and you locate your films in hell, how do you get out of it?
是的，但问题是，当你开始并将你的电影定位在地狱时，你如何摆脱它？
I don’t necessarily find those films having convincing redemptions.
我不一定认为这些电影有令人信服的救赎。
I don’t think we’re redeemed by the blood that we ourselves spill.
我不认为我们会因自己所流的血而得到救赎。
The Sopranos, Catholic TV show or not?
《黑道家族》是不是天主教电视节目？
The characters are Catholic, but that’s not the same thing, right?
角色是天主教徒，但这不是一回事，对吧？
It’s slightly.
是有一点。
When I saw The Sopranos and I thought the guy was named David Chase, I said, “How can this happen?
当我看到《黑道家族》时，我以为这个人名叫大卫·蔡斯，我说：“怎么会发生这种事？
This guy knows Italians from the inside.” I thought his name was DeCesare or something originally.
这家伙从内部了解意大利人。”我原本以为他的名字叫德塞萨尔什么的。
He’s an Italian who actually went to Stanford.
他是意大利人，实际上就读于斯坦福大学。
I find them absolutely, 99.9% on the mark of Italian Americans, but most of the religion is scrubbed away.
我发现他们绝对是意大利裔美国人，99.9%，但大部分宗教信仰都被抹去了。
In the first season, when the mother was still alive, you saw the darker side of Catholicism in her.
在第一季中，当母亲还活着时，你在她身上看到了天主教的阴暗面。
After a while, it becomes a very Italian-American series with the emphasis on American, the way Italians have changed in America.
一段时间后，它变成了一部非常意大利式的美国系列剧，重点是美国，意大利人在美国的变化。
Tony meeting the end he does, visiting the therapist is like going to confession.
托尼达到了他所达到的目的，拜访治疗师就像去忏悔一样。
Isn’t there Catholic symbolism throughout it for, what, all seven seasons?
整个七个季节不是都有天主教的象征意义吗？
It is Catholic, but he is going to a psychoanalyst with whom he has a sexual attraction.
他是天主教徒，但他要去见一位与他有性吸引力的精神分析师。
It becomes Americanized in that way.
它以这种方式变得美国化。
Versus Mean Streets, it’s Catholicism straight up.
与《穷街陋巷》相比，它是直截了当的天主教。
The Deer Hunter is Catholicism straight up.
《猎鹿人》是纯粹的天主教。
The Godfather, Godfather 1 and 2.
教父，教父1和2。
Even in number 3, he tries, it doesn’t work very well.
即使在第三个位置，他也尝试过，效果也不是很好。
These are fundamentally sacramental works of art.
这些从根本上来说是神圣的艺术作品。
I think The Godfather is psychoanalytic rather than sacramental.
我认为《教父》是精神分析的，而不是圣礼的。
In fiction, has America outsourced its Catholicism to other nations such as Elena Ferrante, Houellebecq.
在小说中，美国是否将其天主教外包给了埃琳娜·费兰特、维勒贝克等其他国家。
Knausgård is Lutheran, not Catholic, but it’s still quite a confessional memoir.
克瑙斯加德是路德教教徒，而不是天主教徒，但这仍然是一本相当忏悔的回忆录。
We have a tremendous Catholic culture in American fiction that was largely done by converts, or people that were sympathetic.
美国小说中有一种巨大的天主教文化，这些文化主要是由皈依者或同情者完成的。
Willa Cather, who was not Catholic wrote Death Comes for the Archbishop, maybe the best Catholic novel in American literature.
威拉·凯瑟不是天主教徒，她写的《大主教之死》可能是美国文学中最好的天主教小说。
You have Flannery O’Connor, you have Walker Percy, you have John Kennedy Toole.
你有弗兰纳里·奥康纳，你有沃克·珀西，你有约翰·肯尼迪·图尔。
You have these people that are largely southerners.
这些人主要是南方人。
They were the part of Catholicism that was in some ways a discriminated minority against the South, or you have converts.
他们是天主教的一部分，在某种程度上是针对南方的受歧视的少数群体，或者你有皈依者。
We have several really fine Catholic novelists right now.
我们现在有几位非常优秀的天主教小说家。
Tobias Wolff, Ron Hansen, Alice McDermott are the three best ones, I think.
我认为托比亚斯·沃尔夫、罗恩·汉森、爱丽丝·麦克德莫特是最好的三个。
There’s a re-invention of this, but we are not a mainstream cultural voice yet.
这是一种重新发明，但我们还不是主流文化的声音。
Astonishingly, we even have a revival of the Protestant novel, which I thought had died with Updike and Cheever with Marilynne Robinson.
令人惊讶的是，我们甚至还复兴了新教小说，我原以为新教小说已经随着厄普代克、契弗和玛丽莲·罗宾逊而消亡了。
Who would have thought you’d have a series of Calvinist masterpieces?
谁会想到你会有一系列加尔文主义杰作？
How did Catholicism shape the work of Sigrid Undset?
天主教如何塑造了西格丽德·温塞特的作品？
Once again, I think Scandinavian Catholic is in the minority.
我再次认为斯堪的纳维亚天主教徒是少数。
What it did with Undset in a sense brought her back to pre-Protestant Scandinavian culture, which I think she was able to be both medieval and modern.
从某种意义上说，它对温塞特的影响让她回到了前新教斯堪的纳维亚文化，我认为她能够既中世纪又现代。
I think she was able to bring more of the Scandinavian character together in her novels that way.
我认为她能够通过这种方式将更多斯堪的纳维亚角色融入到她的小说中。
The interesting one that you mentioned though, is Houellebecq.
不过，你提到的有趣的是维勒贝克（Houellebecq）。
All of his novels to essentially take place in secular hell of modern Europe, which has eradicated its roots.
他所有的小说基本上都发生在现代欧洲的世俗地狱中，而它的根源已经被根除。
You see him in the recent work trying to get out of it, and the only way he can is in a sense by a leap of faith.
你可以在最近的作品中看到他试图摆脱困境，从某种意义上说，他唯一能做的就是信仰的飞跃。
Anyway, it’s Islam that he admires for standing up to the system and saying no.
无论如何，他钦佩的是伊斯兰教勇敢地反抗体制并说不。
The novels are novels of existential despair, so it’s not surprising then, they become novels of existential resistance.
这些小说是存在主义绝望的小说，所以它们成为存在主义抵抗的小说也就不足为奇了。
He is our version of Camus.
他是我们版的加缪。
I find him a fascinating novelist.
我发现他是一位迷人的小说家。
I’d always heard terrible things about him.
我总是听到关于他的可怕的事情。
He was the most awful writer in Europe today.
他是当今欧洲最糟糕的作家。
Then I read a novel of his, and I just said, “He’s like once again, D.H.
然后我读了他的一本小说，我只是说，“他又像一次，D.H.
Lawrence.
劳伦斯.
It’s not a great novel, but there’s a great vision in this.
这不是一本伟大的小说，但其中有一个伟大的愿景。
There’s tremendous energy in this.” They are intellectually enlivening books.
这里面蕴藏着巨大的能量。”它们是激发智力的书籍。
I now have read everything.
我现在已经读完了所有内容。
I’d love to see him interviewed because he is a wonderful interviewee.
我很高兴看到他接受采访，因为他是一位出色的受访者。
You see him play with the BBC and reduce the BBC, and it was shivering massive, excuse me, Jell-O.
你看到他和 BBC 一起玩，然后缩小 BBC，那是巨大的颤抖，对不起，Jell-O。
How has being a Catholic influenced your management style?
天主教徒身份对您的管理风格有何影响？
Catholicism gives you a very sensible piece of advice: you must love everyone.
天主教给了你一个非常明智的建议：你必须爱每个人。
But that doesn’t mean that everyone’s perfect.
但这并不意味着每个人都是完美的。
You have to, in a sense, manage love, community, togetherness, shared responsibility with an ability to criticize people so they can transcend their current state and become better versions of themselves.
从某种意义上说，你必须管理爱、社区、团结、共同责任，并有能力批评别人，这样他们才能超越自己目前的状态，成为更好的自己。
With a background that is both Mexican and Sicilian, do you feel closer to those varieties of Catholicism?
您有墨西哥和西西里的背景，您是否感觉更接近那些天主教徒？
If so, does the American version of Catholicism leave you a little disappointed?
如果是这样，美国版的天主教是否让您有点失望？
Yes and yes.
是的，是的。
I’m still a working-class guy.
我仍然是一个工人阶级。
My Catholicism — I’d been going through a lot of stuff.
我的天主教 —— 我经历了很多事情。
When I came to Washington as an appointee, I was living downtown in The Lansburgh renting a room.
当我以被任命者的身份来到华盛顿时，我住在兰斯堡市中心，租了一个房间。
I began to go to mass at St. Patrick’s.
我开始去圣帕特里克教堂参加弥撒。
I was in a church where one third of the people were homeless.
我在一座教堂里，那里有三分之一的人无家可归。
One third were like me, overeducated guys and one third were the hotel service workers that were Latin Americans.
三分之一是像我一样受过过度教育的人，三分之一是拉丁美洲的酒店服务人员。
When I was there, it was truly a religious reawakening for me.
当我在那里时，这对我来说确实是一次宗教的觉醒。
Yes, we were all together in this society and in this life.
是的，我们都在一起，在这个社会，在这一生。
I belonged to two parishes, one in South Pasadena, which my wife prefers.
我属于两个教区，其中一个位于南帕萨迪纳，这是我妻子更喜欢的。
Which is upper middle class, highly educated, very prosperous.
这是中上层阶级，受过高等教育，非常富裕。
The one at Santa Rosa, which I prefer, which is complete shambles, it’s working class, lower middle class people, very Mexican, very Filipino.
我更喜欢圣罗莎的那个，那里一团糟，都是工人阶级、中下层阶级，非常墨西哥，非常菲律宾。
Those are my people.
这些是我的人。
I like ground-level Catholicism.
我喜欢基层天主教。
I believe that my church is the church of the poor.
我相信我的教会是穷人的教会。
The church of the immigrant.
移民教堂。
Where are we still building great cathedrals?
我们还在哪里建造伟大的大教堂？
No.
不。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
I guess we can blame Mies van der Rohe.
我想我们可以责怪密斯·凡德罗。
Modernist architecture created this notion of functionality, form follows function.
现代主义建筑创造了这种功能概念，形式服从功能。
The United States is full of dreadful churches, but the function of a church is different than what architects think.
美国到处都是可怕的教堂，但教堂的功能却和建筑师想象的不一样。
I know many people who have come to Catholicism because they were in France.
我认识很多人因为在法国而皈依天主教。
They walked into Chartres, Mont St. Michel and something happened in them that they did not understand.
他们走进沙特尔、圣米歇尔山，他们身上发生了一些他们不明白的事情。
They felt something happening inside this space that was not happening in the outer world.
他们感觉到这个空间内正在发生一些外部世界没有发生过的事情。
That is the purpose of a cathedral.
这就是大教堂的目的。
A purpose of a cathedral is to bring you into a space in which spiritual contemplation and experience is possible.
大教堂的目的是带您进入一个可以进行精神沉思和体验的空间。
Transformation is possible inside those walls that are not going to happen generally outside.
在这些墙内，转变是可能的，而在外面一般不会发生。
Now, we simply have functional things.
现在，我们只有功能性的东西。
There are comfortable seating, comfortable lighting.
有舒适的座椅，舒适的灯光。
We might as well be in the Elks lodge.
我们还不如住在麋鹿小屋里。
On leading the NEA
关于领导 NEA
Now, you were Chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts, for what, six, seven years?
现在，您担任国家艺术基金会主席，六年、七年了？
How long?
多长时间？
Yes, seven years.
是的，七年。
Seven years.
七年了。
What is it you think you understand about Congress that maybe outsiders would not, given all that experience?
考虑到所有这些经验，你认为你对国会有什么了解，而外人可能不会了解？
One thing you were very successful at doing was appealing to Congress for what you wanted to get done.
你做得非常成功的一件事就是向国会呼吁你想要完成的事情。
When I was appointed to this job people said, “Go there and fight the good fight.” Everybody just told me, “Just to go there and fight.
当我被任命担任这项工作时，人们说：“去那里打一场美好的仗吧。”每个人都告诉我，“只是去那里战斗。
Don’t give up.” I knew instinctively that fighting was the wrong metaphor, that my job was to reconcile.
不要放弃。”我本能地知道战斗是错误的比喻，我的工作是和解。
They went, “How can you deal with so-and-so, he’s such an awful, evil person?” I said that, “I believe everyone in Congress is the valid elected official.
他们说：“你怎么能对付某人，他是一个如此可怕、邪恶的人？”我说：“我相信国会中的每个人都是有效的民选官员。
They are the person that their people have sent to represent them in a democratic republic.
他们是人民派来代表民主共和国的人。
Therefore, they deserve the respect that the system itself deserves.”
因此，他们应该得到制度本身应有的尊重。”
I met with everybody.
我和大家见了面。
In fact, I took meetings with people who only took the meetings so they could yell and scream at me.
事实上，我与一些人开会，他们只是为了对我大喊大叫而参加会议。
I had the people that supported me, the people that wanted to support me and the people that I would convince to support me.
我有支持我的人、想要支持我的人以及我会说服他们支持我的人。
Within a year, because I traveled every week with people back to their districts, to their states, I had created a bipartisan, bicameral majority.
一年之内，因为我每周都会带着人们回到他们的地区、他们的州，所以我创造了两党、两院多数派。
It was because I also changed the NEA so that we were representing, for the first time in the history of the agency, all of America.
这是因为我还改变了 NEA，因此我们在该机构的历史上第一次代表了整个美国。
We were reaching every community, every population, versus an institution that was largely serving the artistic elite.
我们接触到每个社区、每个人群，而不是一个主要为艺术精英服务的机构。
The arts world was very angry about that, but that is the best thing that I did in my chairmanship, was to make this institution, which reflected America.
艺术界对此非常愤怒，但这是我在担任主席期间所做的最好的事情，就是建立了这个反映美国的机构。
Should we send 40% of the NEA budget to the state arts agencies?
我们应该将 40% 的 NEA 预算交给国家艺术机构吗？
Yes.
是的。
Can’t you all spend it better?
你们就不能好好花点钱吗？
The right person under the right circumstances might spend it better once, but generally, you’re better off getting it closer to the people.
合适的人在合适的情况下可能会花得更好，但一般来说，你最好把钱花得更贴近人们。
Also, you’ve got 53 state arts agencies, which means you’ve got 53 different strategies.
此外，您还有 53 家国家艺术机构，这意味着您有 53 种不同的策略。
You start to see the advantages of the federal system, where different people try different things and then they learn from each other.
你开始看到联邦制度的优势，不同的人尝试不同的事情，然后互相学习。
How can we make arts funding less bureaucratic, whether public or private sector?
无论是公共部门还是私营部门，我们如何才能减少艺术资助的官僚主义？
I think the best arts funding is from the private sector.
我认为最好的艺术资助来自私营部门。
It’s where people give money while they’re still alive so they can measure the results of what they’re doing.
人们在活着的时候就捐钱，这样他们就可以衡量他们所做的事情的结果。
I believe that people should fund things in their own communities and they should become very actively involved.
我相信人们应该为自己社区的事情提供资金，并且应该非常积极地参与其中。
If you think about this, the people who create wealth have skills.
如果你想一想，创造财富的人都有技能。
Now, they aren’t artistic skills, don’t get me wrong, but they have organizational skills.
别误会我的意思，他们不是艺术技能，而是组织能力。
They can also recognize when something’s working and what’s not working.
他们还可以识别什么时候有效，什么无效。
If we could take some of that energy and bring it into local arts organizations, we wouldn’t have the number of symphonies and museums and opera companies and theaters that are going bankrupt right now.
如果我们能够利用其中的一些能量并将其带入当地的艺术组织，我们就不会有现在破产的交响乐团、博物馆、歌剧公司和剧院的数量。
I see a lot of people who have a lot of money not willing to give their time or not willing to give their money.
我看到很多有很多钱的人不愿意付出时间或不愿意付出金钱。
“Well, I’ll give it when I die.
“好吧，等我死了我就给你。
I’ll create a little foundation when I die.” I just finished rereading a book on Henry E.
我死后会创建一个小小的基金会。”我刚刚重读了一本关于亨利·E·的书。
Huntington, who like Andrew Carnegie, Andrew Mellon, did it while they were alive.
亨廷顿和安德鲁·卡内基、安德鲁·梅隆一样，在他们活着的时候就做到了这一点。
They oversaw the things and they created.
他们监督事物并创造。
In the case of Carnegie, hundreds, thousands of institutions, but in terms of Mellon and Huntington, institutions have absolute world quality that transformed the cultural landscape of their region and we don’t see that much anymore.
就卡内基而言，有成百上千的机构，但就梅隆和亨廷顿而言，机构具有绝对的世界品质，改变了其地区的文化景观，但我们已经看不到那么多了。
When people do this, they tend to do it in medicine or science, not in the arts.
当人们这样做时，他们倾向于在医学或科学领域进行，而不是在艺术领域。
I have just a few basic questions to close.
我只有几个基本问题要结束。
First, if someone wants to pursue Dana Gioia as a poet, what should they actually go out and do?
首先，如果有人想追求达纳·乔亚（Dana Gioia）成为一名诗人，他们实际上应该出去做什么？
What’s the first act they should take?
他们应该采取的第一个行动是什么？
The first act they should take is learn how to spell my name, which is not self-explanatory in the Anglophonic world.
他们应该采取的第一个行动是学习如何拼写我的名字，这在英语世界中是不言自明的。
Then I think just go to danagioia.com, which is my website, or even better yet, just go to YouTube, put in Dana Gioia Poems, or Dana Gioia.
然后我想访问 danagioia.com，这是我的网站，或者更好的是，访问 YouTube，放入 Dana Gioia Poems 或 Dana Gioia。
One of my sons is filmmaker.
我的一个儿子是电影制片人。
I’ve done about 20 short films with him.
我和他一起拍了大约20部短片。
Some are only one or two minutes long.
有些只有一两分钟长。
You can hear my poetry, you can hear some lectures.
你可以听我的诗，你可以听一些讲座。
Yesterday, in fact, I put up an 11-minute lecture on Robert Frost.
事实上，昨天我做了一个关于罗伯特·弗罗斯特 (Robert Frost) 的 11 分钟讲座。
We’re doing these things and he believes and I believe he’s one that goads me to do this is that we need to find a way of speaking about poetry in our culture.
我们正在做这些事情，他相信，我也相信他是促使我这样做的人，因为我们需要找到一种在我们的文化中谈论诗歌的方式。
It’s not happening in the universities, it’s not happening in the mass media.
这不会发生在大学里，也不会发生在大众媒体上。
To do really good short films on poetry, I think has a tremendous cultural value.
制作真正优秀的诗歌短片，我认为具有巨大的文化价值。
I’ve done one of these podcasts with your brother Ted, obviously, you know Ted.
我和你的兄弟泰德一起制作了其中一个播客，显然，你知道泰德。
He’s the smart Gioia.
他是聪明的乔亚。
If you had to explain in as few dimensions as possible, how your aesthetic outlook differs from his, what would you boil it down to?
如果你必须用尽可能少的维度来解释你的审美观与他的有何不同，你会归结为什么呢？
The sad thing is it’s almost identical.
可悲的是，它几乎是一样的。
I think I have-
我想我有-
I don’t believe that.
我不相信这一点。
I discovered some new thing.
我发现了一些新东西。
I talked to him and he’s discovering at the same time.
我和他交谈过，他同时也发现了这一点。
He is interested in popular culture, I’m most interested in high culture, so I think that leads us into different things.
他对流行文化感兴趣，我对高雅文化最感兴趣，所以我认为这会引导我们进入不同的事物。
The art forms that he’s interested in are hardly more than 100 years old, the art forms that I’m interested in are as old as humanity itself.
他感兴趣的艺术形式几乎没有超过 100 年的历史，而我感兴趣的艺术形式却和人类本身一样古老。
Chronologically, we’re listening.
按时间顺序，我们正在倾听。
If you think about his art in his view of culture it tends to be horizontal because he’s looking at, maybe 20 years in terms of hip-hop or something like this across the thing where mine is more vertical.
如果你从他的文化观来思考他的艺术，它往往是水平的，因为他所关注的可能是 20 年的嘻哈音乐或类似的东西，而我的艺术则更垂直。
I’m going all the way back to Virgil to Homer to Horace to Dante.
我要一路回到维吉尔、荷马、贺拉斯、但丁。
Now, I’ve sometimes described you to my friends as being an information billionaire.
现在，我有时向我的朋友们描述你是一位信息亿万富翁。
Now, these questions and answers we didn’t prepare any of them in advance, did we?
现在，这些问题和答案我们都没有提前准备，不是吗？
No, no. In fact, I was delighted.
不，不。事实上，我很高兴。
They’re such good questions.
这些问题真是太好了。
I’m usually asked the same 10 questions that you did not ask one of them.
我通常会被问到同样的 10 个问题，而你却没有问其中一个。
That was a relief.
这真是一种解脱。
If there’s someone young and bright and they want to also become an information billionaire, what non-obvious advice would you offer?
如果有人年轻而聪明，他们也想成为一名信息亿万富翁，你会提供哪些非显而易见的建议？
Yes, read a lot of books, go to art museums, yes, of course, but what’s the non-obvious insight you have into this process?
是的，读很多书，去艺术博物馆，是的，当然，但是你对这个过程有什么非显而易见的洞察？
Well, I don’t think you can give people advice to this that don’t have the inclination.
好吧，我认为你不能给那些没有意愿的人提供建议。
I think part of it is to pay attention to what interests you, not into this kind of novelty-driven commercial culture we’re in.
我认为其中一部分是要关注你感兴趣的东西，而不是关注我们所处的这种新奇驱动的商业文化。
My students, and I would ask them, how long do you spend each day looking at tweets?
我的学生们，我会问他们，你们每天花多长时间看推文？
They say, “Well, about 90 minutes.”
他们说：“嗯，大约 90 分钟。”
Punk yourself out of the daily ephemeral culture and immerse yourself into things that are going to be still there 10 years later or 100 years later.
让自己摆脱日常的短暂文化，沉浸在 10 年后或 100 年后仍然存在的事物中。
I think the distractions for younger people today are so extreme that they learn very little about the past.
我认为当今年轻人的干扰如此之大，以至于他们对过去了解甚少。
Therefore, they learn very little about the present, because you can’t understand anything unless you have a point by which to judge it as a point of perspective.
因此，他们对当下了解甚少，因为除非你有一个观点来判断它作为一个观点，否则你无法理解任何事情。
Very last question.
最后一个问题。
What do you seek to learn next?
接下来你想学什么？
If I were young, it would be Russian.
如果我年轻的话，我会选择俄语。
What I’m doing right now is actually to go back and to relearn a lot of things that I had before.
我现在所做的其实就是回去重新学习很多以前的东西。
I just finished writing a 14,000-word essay on Charles Baudelaire, that’s going to be the introduction to a new edition of The Flowers of Evil.
我刚刚写完一篇关于查尔斯·波德莱尔的一万四千字的文章，这将是新版《恶之花》的介绍。
I knew Baudelaire’s work but spending several months rereading absolutely everything was, to me, illuminating and joyful.
我知道波德莱尔的作品，但花了几个月的时间重读一切，对我来说，绝对是有启发性和快乐的。
I plan to do this for a couple of other people.
我计划为其他几个人做这件事。
Poe, I know pretty darn well, Samuel Johnson, and Wordsworth because I think, in my own work, both as a prose writer and as a creative writer, I can learn from them and my main goal right now is to finish a long poem that I started a few years ago, which stopped about a third of the way through so I can finish that.
我对爱伦·坡、塞缪尔·约翰逊和华兹华斯非常了解，因为我认为，在我自己的作品中，无论是作为散文作家还是创意作家，我都可以向他们学习，我现在的主要目标是完成一首几年前开始的长诗，这首诗读到一半就停了下来，这样我就可以完成它。
Again, everyone the new book is Studying with Miss Bishop: Memoirs from a Young Writer’s Life by Dana Gioia, G-I-O-I-A.
再次，大家好，这本新书是《与毕晓普小姐一起学习：一位年轻作家的回忆录》，作者：Dana Gioia，G-I-O-I-A。
Dana Gioia, thank you very much.
达纳·乔亚，非常感谢你。
It’s been a real pleasure.
这真是一种乐趣。
Tyler, this was fun.
泰勒，这很有趣。