Cynthia L. Haven on René Girard, Czeslaw Milosz, and Joseph Brodsky (Ep. 157)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
I’m very happy today to be chatting with Cynthia Haven.
我很高兴今天能与 Cynthia Haven 聊天。
She is listed as a visiting scholar at Stanford, but I think of her as an independent scholar in the very best sense of that term.
她被列为斯坦福大学的访问学者，但我认为她是一名独立学者，在这个词的最佳意义上。
Quite recently, she has published the definitive biography of René Girard that is called Evolution of Desire and a biography of Czesław Miłosz.
最近，她出版了雷内·吉拉德的权威传记《欲望的进化》和切斯瓦夫·米沃什的传记。
She has written extensively on Joseph Brodsky and is published in just about every other outlet you might imagine.
她撰写了大量有关约瑟夫·布罗茨基的文章，并在您能想到的几乎所有其他媒体上发表过文章。
Cynthia, welcome.
辛西娅，欢迎。
Thank you.
谢谢。
It’s wonderful to be here.
来到这里真是太好了。
If I think of three of your main interests — Girard, Brodsky from then the Soviet Union, Miłosz — they’re all individuals in exile.
如果我想到你们的三个主要兴趣——吉拉德、当时苏联的布罗茨基、米沃什——他们都是流亡者。
Why are you fascinated with the theme of exile?
您为什么对流亡这个主题着迷？
Ah, that’s an interesting question.
啊，这是一个有趣的问题。
I’d never thought about it that way.
我从来没有这样想过。
I am interested, and they were three people I happen to know.
我很感兴趣，他们是我碰巧认识的三个人。
But that’s endogenous, right?
但这是内生的，对吗？
You got to know people who were exiled, self-exiled.
你必须认识那些被放逐、自我放逐的人。
René was not self-exiled.
勒内并不是自我放逐。
He came here after the war because it was a place where he could get a job.
战后他来到这里，因为这是一个他可以找到工作的地方。
He was recruited by the Americans that were going abroad and looking for bright young men to come and refill colleges after the war and teach the GIs on the GI Bill.
他被那些出国的美国人招募，他们正在寻找聪明的年轻人来补充战后大学的知识，并教授《退伍军人法案》中的美国士兵。
Why does exile interest you so much, and what kind of exile do you live?
为什么你对流亡如此感兴趣？你过着怎样的流亡生活？
What are you exiled from?
你因什么而被放逐？
It doesn’t interest me so much.
我对此不太感兴趣。
I don’t think that was what attracted me to them.
我不认为这就是他们吸引我的原因。
I guess we’re all exiles in a way.
我想在某种程度上我们都是流亡者。
I feel like one.
我感觉自己就是其中之一。
Is there some kind of Eastern European liberalism they have in common?
他们有某种东欧自由主义的共同点吗？
There’s a theme of Christianity running through Miłosz and Girard.
米沃什和吉拉德的作品中贯穿着基督教的主题。
They’re all from what you might consider — well, at least Brodsky and Miłosz — failed societies in a certain way.
他们都来自于你可能认为的——嗯，至少是布罗茨基和米沃什——在某种程度上失败的社会。
Is there some new vision of liberalism running throughout the works of the three?
三人的作品中是否贯穿着自由主义的新愿景？
Their politics and their thinking was not quite that easy to characterize.
他们的政治和思想并不那么容易描述。
René considered himself — I think they all — certainly Miłosz considered himself a liberal in Poland.
勒内认为自己“——我认为他们都是”——米沃什当然认为自己是波兰的自由主义者。
But the terms changed so quickly with the rise of Stalinism, with what was happening in Europe, that suddenly the terms keep shifting, and it’s hard to place any of them politically.
但随着斯大林主义的兴起以及欧洲发生的事情，这些术语变化得如此之快，以至于这些术语突然不断变化，很难将它们放在政治上。
René has been called a conservative, but he was pretty mainline democratic.
雷内被称为保守派，但他是相当主流的民主派。
These are terms that we’ve put a great deal of meaning on, and I’m not sure that they’re that fixed as we think they are.
这些术语我们赋予了很多含义，但我不确定它们是否像我们想象的那么固定。
Mainline democratic was a kind of conservative in his time, right?
主流民主在他那个时代是一种保守派，对吗？
Conservative in the literal sense.
字面意义上的保守。
Five years ago, I suppose.
我想是五年前吧。
Maybe 15, 20 years ago.
也许是15、20年前。
None of them are really political animals.
他们都不是真正的政治动物。
Aren’t they all quite political in some ways?
它们在某些方面不都是相当政治化的吗？
Girard is writing about sacrifice and kingship, and he’s obsessed with the Bible and Shakespeare.
吉拉德正在写有关牺牲和王权的文章，他对圣经和莎士比亚很着迷。
Those are all highly political themes.
这些都是高度政治化的主题。
It’s people today who are political that seemed most interested in Girard, right?
今天的政治人物似乎对吉拉德最感兴趣，对吗？
I’m not very political myself, and I adored the man.
我自己不太关心政治，但我很崇拜这个人。
If we take Miłosz, is there a way in which we can think of him as expressing a more liberal side of Dostoevsky?
如果我们以米沃什为例，我们是否可以认为他表达了陀思妥耶夫斯基更自由的一面？
Is there such a liberal side of Dostoevsky?
陀思妥耶夫斯基有这样自由主义的一面吗？
A call for universal love — I think that’s beyond politics.
呼吁博爱 —— 我认为这超越了政治。
He was obsessed with the intellectual corruption of the intellectuals in France post World War II, when so many French intellectuals were Stalinist.
他痴迷于二战后法国知识分子的知识腐败，当时很多法国知识分子都是斯大林主义者。
He writes his masterwork of social science, The Captive Mind, about how conformist everyone is, and that they’re unwilling to think independently, right?
他写了他的社会科学杰作《被囚禁的心灵》，讲述了每个人都是多么墨守成规，不愿意独立思考，对吗？
He was writing about totalitarianism and the pressures that were brought on people by that system.
他写的是极权主义以及该制度给人们带来的压力。
But these are people living in France that he’s criticizing, not people living in the Soviet Union.
但他批评的是生活在法国的人，而不是生活在苏联的人。
It’s both.
两者都是。
Yes, it was purely mimetic.
是的，这纯粹是模仿。
Yes, it was a pretty universally Stalinist atmosphere, and the only person that befriended him was Camus.
是的，这是一种相当普遍的斯大林主义气氛，唯一与他成为朋友的人是加缪。
There were a few others, the people in culture, but they were Polish émigrés themselves.
还有其他一些人，有文化的人，但他们本身就是波兰移民。
There’s a lot of conformity.
有很多一致性。
I don’t think conformity is left or right or liberal or conservative.
我不认为从众有左或右、自由或保守之分。
It’s just human nature.
这只是人性。
Are he and Girard thinking through what are the broader systemic implications of so much mimesis, whether or not it’s a particular political vision?
他和吉拉德是否正在思考如此多的模仿会产生哪些更广泛的系统影响，无论这是否是一种特定的政治愿景？
Again, I don’t think it’s political.
再说一次，我不认为这与政治有关。
I don’t think they were thinking in those terms.
我不认为他们有这样的想法。
Let’s say I asked you to compare Girard’s vision of human beings and how they copy each other, and Miłosz’s vision.
假设我让你比较吉拉德对人类以及他们如何相互复制的看法，以及米沃什的看法。
How are those two visions different?
这两种愿景有何不同？
I don’t think they were.
我不认为他们是。
I think that they had a great deal in common in that regard, but they expressed it in a different way.
我认为他们在这方面有很多共同点，但他们的表达方式不同。
They used a different language.
他们使用不同的语言。
For one thing, one was a poet.
一方面，一个人是一位诗人。
Miłosz also wrote about human beings, right?
米沃什也写过人类，对吗？
He wrote a memoir, he wrote a novel.
他写了一本回忆录，他写了一本小说。
There’s plenty of vision of how human society operates.
关于人类社会如何运作有很多愿景。
Is mimesis more universal in Girard than Miłosz?
吉拉德的模仿是否比米沃什更普遍？
I would think so.
我也这么认为。
It was the central point of his whole work, for René Girard.
对于雷内·吉拉德来说，这是他整个作品的中心点。
But we’re looking at human phenomena, and they’re pretty much everywhere.
但我们正在研究人类现象，它们几乎无处不在。
How did Miłosz react to the Berkeley Free Speech Movement?
米沃什对伯克利言论自由运动有何反应？
He was sympathetic with the students, but as he commented, they complain because they have too much.
他很同情学生们，但正如他所说，学生们抱怨是因为他们拥有的太多了。
It was very different from the environment that he had just left, where students had very few rights and very few freedoms.
这和他刚离开的环境很不一样，那里的学生权利很少，自由也很少。
The famous incident, of course, is when he was going through the campus, and he was surrounded by protesters.
当然，著名的事件是当他穿过校园时，他被抗议者包围。
How did he react to that?
他对此有何反应？
With his best Slav accent, he waved his cane and said, “Begone, spoiled children of the bourgeoisie.”
他用他最纯正的斯拉夫口音挥舞着手杖，说道：“走开，被宠坏的资产阶级孩子们。”
Did he think they actually favored free speech?
他认为他们实际上支持言论自由吗？
I’m sure he did, yes.
我确信他做到了，是的。
He once wrote, “The man of the East cannot take Americans seriously because they have never undergone the experiences that teach men how relative their judgments and thinking habits are.” Do you agree?
他曾经写道：“东方人无法认真对待美国人，因为他们从未经历过那些让人们知道他们的判断和思维习惯是如何相关的经历。”你同意？
Yes.
是的。
Would Girard agree?
吉拉德会同意吗？
I think he would, yes.
我想他会的，是的。
Wasn’t he more of an objectivist in the sense of viewing Christianity as an objective vantage point for evaluating cultures, polities?
从将基督教视为评估文化和政治的客观有利点的意义上来说，他不是更像一个客观主义者吗？
He was viewing the scapegoat mechanism, the thing that united all these societies.
他正在寻找替罪羊机制，即团结所有这些社会的东西。
He’s a systemic French thinker, in a way.
在某种程度上，他是一位系统的法国思想家。
Miłosz seems to me much more relativist.
在我看来，米沃什更具相对主义色彩。
Yes, I would agree.
是的，我同意。
Why did Miłosz translate parts of the Bible?
米沃什为何翻译部分圣经？
I think because he wanted to make it more part of himself.
我想是因为他想让它成为他自己的一部分。
Remember, he was going through an enormous amount of suffering at that point in his life, too, with his wife dying, with his son going mad.
请记住，在他生命的那个阶段，他也经历了巨大的痛苦，他的妻子去世了，他的儿子发疯了。
To what extent do you think his theory of intellectuals in postwar France explains American intellectuals today, that they’re just highly conformist?
你认为他关于战后法国知识分子的理论在多大程度上解释了今天的美国知识分子，即他们只是高度墨守成规？
I think it pretty much explains them, yes.
我认为这很好地解释了它们，是的。
I think there’s a great deal of conformity in our culture as well.
我认为我们的文化也有很多一致性。
We academics — some of us have tenure.
我们学者——我们中的一些人拥有终身教职。
What are we so afraid of in particular?
我们特别害怕什么？
How does the calculus operate?
微积分是如何运算的？
One wishes for esteem.
一个人希望得到尊重。
One wishes to get approval from one’s peers.
一个人希望得到同辈的认可。
That can be as powerful as the fear of losing a job.
这可能与失去工作的恐惧一样强烈。
But in a lot of realms, you get that esteem by innovating or by deviating from established opinion, right?
但在很多领域，你通过创新或偏离既定观点来获得尊重，对吗？
If you’re a musician, you’re expected to do something at least a bit different.
如果你是一名音乐家，你应该做一些至少有点不同的事情。
Why is academia — why does it have more conformist standards for acceptance?
为什么学术界 ——为什么它有更一致的接受标准？
Well, one is allowed to make the great breakthrough book or whatever, as long as it’s a breakthrough within certain confines, within certain limits.
好吧，一个人可以做出一本伟大的突破性的书或者其他什么，只要它是在一定范围内、一定范围内的突破。
That’s an interesting point.
这是一个有趣的观点。
What is the point at which it becomes something unacceptable or outrageous rather than just innovative, and who decides that?
什么时候它会变得不可接受或令人愤慨而不仅仅是创新，由谁决定？
How does that get decided?
这是如何决定的？
Why do you think no tenured academic wrote a comparable biography of Girard?
您认为为什么没有终身教授写过类似的吉拉德传记？
Who, in a way, is not such a controversial figure, right?
在某种程度上，谁不是一个如此有争议的人物，对吧？
He’s becoming more and more mainstream, but it’s taken a long while for that to happen.
他变得越来越主流，但这需要很长时间才能发生。
He was in academia, but not of academia, in a lot of ways.
他在学术界工作，但在很多方面都不是学术界的。
Basically, the head of the Michigan State University Press’s series — when they approached me and asked me to think of an idea for writing about René, I noted that there had never been anything weaving together the life and the work, so the only reason that it happened is because I did it.
基本上，密歇根州立大学出版社系列丛书的负责人 ——当他们找到我并让我想出一个关于写雷内的想法时，我指出从来没有任何东西将生活和工作交织在一起，所以它发生的唯一原因是因为我做到了。
I think that it was the core conformist thing.
我认为这是墨守成规的核心。
Nobody wanted to stick their heads out.
没有人愿意伸出头来。
People wanted to hold him at a distance.
人们想与他保持一定的距离。
What do you think of the current Silicon Valley infatuation with Girard?
您如何看待当前硅谷对吉拉德的迷恋？
I think it’s very mimetic, don’t you?
我认为这非常模仿，不是吗？
A lot of that is Peter Thiel’s influence.
其中很大一部分是彼得·泰尔的影响。
It’s kind of a mixed bag.
这是一种鱼龙混杂的情况。
It’s interesting that people always want to ask me about Peter Thiel as the leader of this mimetic wave, but I think he’s got a lot more to say about a lot more things that are going to be of long-standing interest.
有趣的是，人们总是想问我关于彼得·泰尔（Peter Thiel）作为这一模仿浪潮的领导者的情况，但我认为他对更多长期感兴趣的事情有很多话要说。
We’ve already had some good analyses of his effect on Silicon Valley.
我们已经对他对硅谷的影响进行了一些很好的分析。
But his effect on human behavior, his call for universal forgiveness, his call for being more independent, not being mimetic, and all into one’s desires — I think that those are his enduring messages that are more important than the world of technology.
但他对人类行为的影响，他对普遍宽恕的呼吁，他对更加独立、不模仿的呼吁，以及一切都符合一个人的欲望 —— 我认为这些是他比技术世界更重要的持久信息。
What did Girard think of social media?
吉拉德对社交媒体有何看法？
He saw an early form of them, right?
他看到了它们的早期形态，对吗？
He was not tremendously interested.
他并不是很感兴趣。
Of course, he used a computer; he was on the internet.
当然，他用的是电脑；他在互联网上。
He was always on his own wavelength.
他始终保持着自己的节奏。
He was an amazing man to know, an amazing man to talk to.
他是一个非常值得认识的人，也是一个非常值得交谈的人。
Sure.
当然。
How did Proust influence René Girard?
普鲁斯特如何影响雷内·吉拉德？
Oh, I think that was one of his first major literary interests.
哦，我认为这是他最早的主要文学兴趣之一。
Finding that book as he was leaving for America — he found that in a bookstore.
当他动身前往美国时，他发现了那本书——他在一家书店里找到了它。
It was very influential, leading him to see how social groups work, and the snobbery of social circles, and the way that they can lure you and repel you at the same time.
这非常有影响力，让他看到了社会群体是如何运作的，以及社交圈子的势利，以及他们如何吸引你，同时又排斥你。
Do you think Girard’s thesis of mimetic desire is empirically falsifiable?
你认为吉拉德的模仿欲望论在经验上是可证伪的吗？
Or does it suffer from the weaknesses of a lot of continental philosophy?
或者它是否受到许多欧陆哲学的弱点的困扰？
That it’s a big idea thrown out there, and then selectively withdrawn when it doesn’t fit the facts.
这是一个被提出来的伟大想法，然后当它不符合事实时有选择地撤回。
I think it’s not a prediction, it’s not a way that you can predict something.
我认为这不是预测，这不是你可以预测某事的方式。
I think that there are too many variables in almost any equation to make it foolproof in that sense.
我认为几乎任何方程中都有太多的变量，因此从这个意义上来说，它是万无一失的。
One of the things that always interests me about René was the way he could pull up factors that you didn’t see in a situation, the thing that you weren’t looking at.
雷内总是让我感兴趣的一件事是，他能够提取出你在某种情况下看不到的因素，那些你没有看到的东西。
What did he think of Buddhism?
他对佛教有何看法？
Because Buddhism, at least on the surface, is an attempt to escape the cycle of mimetic desire.
因为佛教，至少从表面上看，是一种摆脱模仿欲望循环的尝试。
He wrote a book about some of the Eastern religions called Sacrifice that was mostly focusing on Hinduism.
他写了一本关于一些东方宗教的书，名为《牺牲》，主要关注印度教。
People ask that question, “What about Buddhism?
人们问这个问题：“佛教呢？
What about Confucianism?” But we use these labels of religions.
那么儒家思想呢？”但我们使用这些宗教标签。
There are millions of individuals within them, and whatever the religion says, there are mimetic behaviors.
他们里面有数以百万计的个体，无论宗教说什么，都有模仿行为。
Human behavior doesn’t suspend itself because of the label of religion that you’re going under.
人类的行为不会因为你所贴上的宗教标签而自我暂停。
He did say and he did feel that Christianity and Judaism — beginning with Judaism — were the first religions to focus in such a concentrated way on competition, strife, and the reasons for conflict, and the pressures to scapegoat.
他确实说过，也确实感觉到，基督教和犹太教——从犹太教开始——是第一个如此集中关注竞争、冲突、冲突原因和替罪羊压力的宗教。
If you were to characterize or conceptualize Girard’s talent as a thinker, how would you express that?
如果您要描述或概念化吉拉德作为思想家的才能，您会如何表达？
He wasn’t a details person, right?
他不是一个注重细节的人，对吧？
What was his great talent?
他的伟大才华是什么？
Intuition.
直觉。
The way he saw these patterns, and saw patterns that no one else did, of competition, rivalry, violence.
他看到这些模式的方式，以及看到其他人没有看到的竞争、对抗和暴力模式的方式。
His big religious intuition was that the New Testament is moving us from the kingdom of violence to the kingdom of God, and what that meant to make that transition.
他的宗教直觉是，新约正在将我们从暴力的国度转移到神的国度，以及这意味着什么来实现这一转变。
Is it true that Girard had no mentors?
吉拉德真的没有导师吗？
Yes.
是的。
That’s quite unusual.
这很不寻常。
How do you think that shaped his career and thought?
您认为这如何塑造了他的职业和思想？
That’s what I meant when I said that he was in academia, but not really of academia.
这就是我说他在学术界但不是真正的学术界时的意思。
He climbed no ladder.
他没有爬梯子。
He had no mentors within academia.
他在学术界没有导师。
He wound up in academia, really, pretty much by accident.
他最终进入学术界，实际上，几乎是偶然的。
Do you think of him as one of your mentors?
您认为他是您的导师之一吗？
Oh, yes.
哦是的。
Or are you, like Girard, with no mentor?
或者你像吉拉德一样，没有导师？
Oh, no, I’ve had many mentors.
哦，不，我有很多导师。
I’ve written about mine.
我已经写过我的事情了。
Who’s your main mentor?
你的主要导师是谁？
I don’t think there’s a main one.
我认为没有主要的。
I think that there are three of them that I’ve written about, and I’m sure that there are others that I will write about.
我想我已经写了其中的三个，并且我确信我还会写其他的。
Who are those three?
那三个人是谁？
René, Joseph Brodsky, and Czesław Miłosz.
雷内、约瑟夫·布罗茨基和切斯瓦夫·米沃什。
So the three people you’ve written the most about.
这是你写得最多的三个人。
Yes.
是的。
They’re endless.
它们是无穷无尽的。
All three of them are endless.
三者皆无穷无尽。
You can spend forever in their works.
你可以在他们的作品中度过一生。
In an article you wrote, you once quoted René Girard: “Joining the mob is the thing people don’t realize.
在您写的一篇文章中，您曾引用雷内·吉拉德的话：“加入暴民是人们没有意识到的事情。
They feel the unity, but don’t interpret it as joining the mob.” Do you agree with that?
他们感受到团结，但不会将其理解为加入暴徒。”你同意吗？
So, people who join, say, Twitter mobs on the internet — they’re oblivious to the fact that they’re part of a mob?
那么，那些加入互联网上的推特暴民的人 ——他们没有意识到自己是暴徒的一部分？
They think they’re speaking up for their rights.
他们认为自己是在为自己的权利发声。
They think that what they’re saying is true.
他们认为他们说的是真的。
But do they also think they’re part of a mob?
但他们是否也认为自己是暴徒的一部分？
Or do they have false consciousness?
还是他们有错误的意识？
I don’t know about false consciousness, but the momentum of a feeling can drive one into a mob without one being aware that that is exactly what they’re doing.
我不知道什么是虚假意识，但一种感觉的动力可以驱使一个人加入暴徒，而没有人意识到这正是他们正在做的事情。
It’s a very subliminal thing.
这是一件非常潜意识的事情。
What is your best Girard story?
你最好的吉拉德故事是什么？
Okay, I’ll tell one.
好吧，我就讲一个。
You asked about Peter Thiel.
你问过彼得泰尔的事。
I was asked to fact-check that Peter Thiel had wanted an answer to a question about René’s theory and drove up immediately to René’s house to get the answers that he needed.
我被要求核实彼得·泰尔是否想要得到有关雷内理论的问题的答案，并立即开车前往雷内的家，以获得他需要的答案。
Someone asked me to fact-check that, and I got the answer.
有人要求我进行事实核查，我得到了答案。
René was not a guru.
雷内不是一位大师。
He did not live on top of a mountain, and, of course, that didn’t happen, so I had to let down the person who asked the question.
他并不住在山顶上，当然，那并没有发生，所以我不得不让提出问题的人失望。
So, it hadn’t happened.
所以，这件事并没有发生。
It hadn’t happened.
这并没有发生。
René did not run an open house.
雷内没有举办开放日活动。
He had a surprisingly conventional private life, was madly in love with the one woman he was married to for 60 years.
他的私生活出人意料地传统，疯狂地爱着与他结婚了 60 年的一个女人。
Here’s a story for you.
这是给你的一个故事。
Martha and René had a marriage that was so harmonious, they apparently never gave each other presents on birthdays or whatever.
玛莎和雷内的婚姻非常和谐，他们显然从来没有在生日之类的时候给对方送过礼物。
The children had to call and tell them that their 60th wedding anniversary had just happened because it went by without them noticing.
孩子们不得不打电话告诉他们，他们的结婚 60 周年纪念日刚刚过去，因为一切都在他们没有注意到的情况下过去了。
Sixty, wow.
六十了，哇。
Now, there’s an anecdote — it’s in your biography, Evolution of Desire — that Girard claimed he had witnessed a lynching, and that influenced his thought.
现在，有一个轶事——在你的传记《欲望的进化》中，吉拉德声称他目睹了一场私刑，这影响了他的想法。
But if one traces the chronology of that claim, it’s not obviously true.
但如果追溯这一说法的时间顺序，就会发现这显然不是真的。
If we fact-check that claim, can it be verified?
如果我们对这一说法进行事实核查，它可以得到验证吗？
Or is he just making that up?
或者他只是编造的？
Was he a fabulist of some sort?
他是某种寓言家吗？
No, that was a writer’s trick.
不，那是作家的伎俩。
A writer’s trick, meaning he made it up?
作家的把戏，意思是他编造的？
No, I was the writer.
不，我是作家。
I was interviewing Jean-Michel Oughourlian in Paris, who was at one time .
我在巴黎采访了让-米歇尔·乌古尔利安（Jean-Michel Oughourlian），他曾经在巴黎。
.
。
.
。
René said many people were his best friend.
雷内说很多人都是他最好的朋友。
Jean-Michel Oughourlian was one of the people that he often said that about.
让-米歇尔·奥古尔连 (Jean-Michel Oughourlian) 就是他经常这样说的人之一。
He claimed that René had told him that he had witnessed a lynching.
他声称雷内告诉他，他目睹了一场私刑。
This was one of those moments, one of the most powerful moments I’ve ever had in an interview, and the floor opens up when someone says something like that.
这是那些时刻之一，是我在采访中经历过的最有力的时刻之一，当有人说出这样的话时，地板就打开了。
I thought, “Wait a minute, how can that be true?” But it was my job to check it out and see whether it could be true.
我想：“等一下，这怎么可能是真的？”但我的工作就是检查它是否属实。
More than that, it was an opportunity for me to explore what lynching meant in the US and abroad, and talk about that.
更重要的是，这对我来说是一个探索私刑在美国和国外意味着什么并进行讨论的机会。
I was surprised, in my research, to find out how recently lynchings had happened.
在我的研究中，我惊讶地发现最近发生了私刑。
I had thought of them as something from a much earlier decade in the 20th century, and having ended.
我原以为它们是 20 世纪更早十年的事情，并且已经结束了。
It gave me a chance to think about it.
这给了我一个思考的机会。
It gave me a chance to talk about it, and later in the interviewing process with Jean Michel, I said to him, “Oughourlian — that’s an Armenian name.
这给了我一个谈论这个问题的机会，后来在采访让·米歇尔的过程中，我对他说，“Oughourlian ——这是一个亚美尼亚名字。
Were your family involved with that?” And his face fell.
你的家人也参与其中吗？”他的脸也沉了下来。
He had lost a number of his extended family in that genocide, and that is why he grew up in Beirut and not further east.
在那次种族灭绝中，他失去了一些大家庭，这就是为什么他在贝鲁特长大，而不是在更东部的地方。
What I concluded in that chapter was that Jean Michel Oughourlian, having been a second-generation Holocaust survivor — that had impressed him.
我在那一章中得出的结论是，让·米歇尔·奥古尔利安（Jean Michel Oughourlian）是第二代大屠杀幸存者，这一点给他留下了深刻的印象。
That what seemed outrageous to us — the idea that René had seen a lynching — was not so outrageous to him because it had actually happened in the not-too-distant memory.
在我们看来令人愤慨的事情——“勒内亲眼目睹了私刑”——对他来说并不那么令人愤慨，因为这实际上发生在不太遥远的记忆中。
So I told the story that way.
所以我就这样讲了这个故事。
I told that chapter that way.
我是这样讲那一章的。
It was a way of going back and revisiting that past, and revisiting the impression that it had on the man standing in front of me.
这是一种回到过去、重新审视过去、重新审视站在我面前的人的印象的方式。
No, I don’t think he sees .
不，我认为他没有看到。
.
。
.
。
He hadn’t seen a lynching.
他没有见过私刑。
You don’t go and watch a lynching.
你不会去看私刑。
You’re either one of the people throwing the stones or you’re the lynchee.
你要么是扔石头的人之一，要么就是私刑者。
It has that kind of attraction; it’s not something that you can watch from far away.
它有这样的吸引力；这不是你可以从远处观看的东西。
Okay.
好的。
How good was Girard as a critic of Shakespeare?
吉拉德对莎士比亚的批评有多出色？
I think he was fascinated by Shakespeare.
我认为他对莎士比亚很着迷。
It was a love affair of sorts.
这可以说是一段爱情。
That was his marriage to the English language.
这就是他与英语的婚姻。
It’s the only book he wrote in English.
这是他唯一一本用英文写的书。
I think he had a great deal to say.
我认为他有很多话要说。
I think that that’s one of the most interesting explorations that he had in his books.
我认为这是他在书中最有趣的探索之一。
He has envy, he is very critical to his corpus, and I think he’s an excellent critic.
他有嫉妒心，他对自己的语料库非常挑剔，我认为他是一位出色的批评家。
So, you don’t think one is just getting Girard.
所以，你不会认为人们只是得到了吉拉德。
One is getting some reasonably accurate understanding of Shakespeare.
一是对莎士比亚有一些相当准确的理解。
Yes.
是的。
I think that there are other ways of seeing Shakespeare besides René’s.
我认为除了雷内的方式之外，还有其他方式来看待莎士比亚。
René had a lot of interesting things to say, but I don’t think he’s the only person that said interesting things on that or any other subject.
雷内有很多有趣的事情要说，但我不认为他是唯一一个在这个或任何其他主题上说过有趣事情的人。
Why is there more mimetic desire in the comedies?
为什么喜剧里有更多的模仿欲望？
Ooh, I think it allowed Shakespeare to play around a lot more.
哦，我认为这让莎士比亚有了更多的发挥空间。
There’s a lot of mimetic influences in the other plays as well.
其他剧目中也有很多模仿的影响。
Julius Caesar is an excellent one for mimetic desire that leads to basically a lynching.
朱利叶斯·凯撒是一位出色的模仿者，他的模仿欲望基本上导致了私刑。
I think that comedies give you a chance to play with it, and I think that that’s a large part of their delight.
我认为喜剧给了你一个发挥它的机会，我认为这是他们的乐趣的很大一部分。
What do you think was Girard’s greatest flaw as a thinker?
您认为吉拉德作为思想家最大的缺陷是什么？
I think that he had an unfortunate tendency to say “always” or “never.” If you quizzed him more thoroughly, he would say, “No, not always” or whatever, but I think that that has sometimes been tackled on by people as a flaw.
我认为他有一种不幸的倾向，就是说“总是”或“从不”。如果你更彻底地询问他，他会说，“不，并不总是”或其他什么，但我认为这有时被人们视为一个缺陷。
Do you think Miłosz as a thinker has a future in the way that Girard has turned out to be really extremely influential and popular?
您认为米沃什作为思想家的未来是否会像吉拉德那样极具影响力和受欢迎？
He’s a poet, and I think that that’s a problem, as poetry — well, it’s not taught the way it was.
他是一位诗人，我认为这是一个问题，因为诗歌——嗯，它不是按原来的方式教授的。
The humanities have somewhat gone by the wayside — not for people who love poetry, but it’s not taught.
人文学科在某种程度上已经被抛在了一边——对于热爱诗歌的人来说不是这样，但它没有被教授。
I would like to see Czesław Miłosz taught in schools as an American.
我希望看到切斯瓦夫·米沃什以美国人的身份在学校任教。
That’s the premise of my book.
这就是我这本书的前提。
I think he had an enormous amount, but he was not a systematic thinker.
我认为他有很多，但他不是一个系统的思想家。
As a poet, he was not trying to create a system, but he had an enormous amount to say to us today.
作为一名诗人，他并不是想创造一个系统，但他今天有很多话要对我们说。
Did it make sense for Curtis Yarvin to have written a whole long blog post tribute to Miłosz?
柯蒂斯·雅文（Curtis Yarvin）写了一整篇长博文向米沃什致敬，这有意义吗？
Have you read that?
你读过吗？
Where?
在哪里？
It’s just online somewhere.
它只是在某个地方在线。
He’s sometimes considered the father of neo-reaction, Yarvin.
雅文有时被认为是新反应之父。
He’s very controversial.
他很有争议。
I’d like to read that.
我想读一下。
I don’t think I’ve read that.
我想我还没读过。
He was really quite intrigued by Captive Mind that he saw as a diagnosis of the intelligentsia here today.
他对“囚禁心灵”非常感兴趣，他认为这是对今天这里的知识分子的诊断。
Yarvin has a kind of cult following.
亚文拥有一批狂热的追随者。
He’s very influential.
他很有影响力。
It’s not my thing.
这不是我的事。
I’m very much more in the tradition of classical liberalism, but nonetheless, here was someone giving Miłosz a huge push.
我更倾向于古典自由主义的传统，但尽管如此，有人给了米沃什巨大的推动。
I haven’t seen it lead to anything, but Miłosz is not just a poet.
我没有看到它带来任何结果，但米沃什不仅仅是一位诗人。
Very few people read Polish who are not Polish, but plenty of people I know have read Captive Mind.
很少有人读过波兰语，但我认识的很多人都读过《俘虏心灵》。
That is his only book that has been continuously in print and a best seller since it was published in 1953.
这是他自 1953 年出版以来唯一一本连续印刷并成为畅销书的书。
It’s an amazing book, and yes, it’s an amazing book to us today.
这是一本了不起的书，是的，对今天的我们来说也是一本了不起的书。
It has a lot to say to us about what you’re talking about, and a lot else — about the conformity, about the pressures to what he called the Murti-Bing pill.
它对我们说了很多关于你所说的事情，还有很多其他的事情——关于顺从，关于他所谓的 Murti-Bing 药丸的压力。
You’ve read Captive Mind.
你读过《俘虏心灵》。
Yes.
是的。
He wrote, “Consciousness does not help them to shed their bonds.
他写道：“意识并不能帮助他们摆脱束缚。
On the contrary, it forges them.”
相反，它锻造了它们。”
Yes.
是的。
What has gone wrong in freedom — since we have a relatively free society — that a work from someone who grew up under communism and then wrote about Stalinists in postwar France — that that work could still be relevant today?
自由出了什么问题——“因为我们有一个相对自由的社会”——“一部在共产主义下长大的人写的关于战后法国斯大林主义者的作品”——“那部作品今天仍然具有现实意义吗？”
What have we done wrong?
我们做错了什么？
Then we get back to René, don’t we?
然后我们回到雷内，不是吗？
It’s imitation.
这是模仿。
It’s the desire to conform.
这是顺从的愿望。
It’s the desire to rise, get a better job, get tenure, whatever it is that’s still precious.
升职、找到更好的工作、获得终身职位的渴望，无论是什么，仍然是珍贵的。
Miłosz did not grow up under communism.
米沃什并不是在共产主义下长大的。
That didn’t come about until the fall of Warsaw and its destruction.
直到华沙陷落并被摧毁，这一切才发生。
Human nature remains the same.
人性依然如故。
It’s just a shame that it’s getting more pathological forms.
遗憾的是它变得越来越病态。
But why do we copy the bad things rather than the good things?
但为什么我们复制不好的东西而不复制好的东西呢？
What’s the missing part of the theory?
理论中缺失的部分是什么？
The bad things are attractive to us.
坏事对我们很有吸引力。
We’re followers.
我们是追随者。
Why has Putin still got support in Russia after what he’s doing?
为什么普京在做了这些事后仍然得到俄罗斯的支持？
Why are there Trump supporters?
为什么会有特朗普的支持者？
COWEN: But say, if I read Freud or I read Wilhelm Reich, there’s some account of why people might crave the bad.
考恩：但是，如果我读过弗洛伊德或威廉·赖克的书，就会有一些解释为什么人们可能会渴望坏事。
If I read Girard .
如果我读吉拉德。
.
。
.
。
Crave the bad as a bad —
把坏事当作坏事来渴望 —
As a bad.
作为一个坏人。
— not thinking that it’s a good?
—— 不觉得这是好事吗？
They’re just compulsively drawn to some things that are bad.
他们只是不由自主地被一些不好的事情所吸引。
They may even feel good to the people in the moment, but there’s an account of craving the bad in those thinkers.
他们甚至可能此刻对人们感觉良好，但有记载表明这些思想家渴望坏事。
Also in Pareto, there’s an account of craving the bad.
在帕累托法则中，也有关于渴望坏事的描述。
For Miłosz, what’s the account of craving the bad?
对于米沃什来说，渴望坏事意味着什么？
Or for Girard?
还是吉拉德？
For Miłosz, I don’t think he did crave the bad, ever.
对于米沃什来说，我认为他从来没有渴望过坏事。
No, he didn’t, but he portrays other people as craving the bad.
不，他没有，但他将其他人描绘成渴望坏事。
I don’t think he talks about that so much.
我认为他并没有谈论那么多。
In Captive Mind, there are people trying to get along and live within the system, and the way they pathologically divide themselves into two people so that they can avoid the martyrdom that happened to so many of their peers.
在《囚禁心灵》中，有些人试图在体制内相处和生活，他们病态地将自己分成两个人，这样他们就可以避免发生在许多同龄人身上的殉难。
What did he find of such great interest in Simone Weil?
他对西蒙娜·薇依的什么事情如此感兴趣？
His favorite phrase of hers was, “Distance is the soul of beauty.” That was a big part of his Nobel speech, getting the right distance from someone.
他最喜欢她的一句话是：“距离是美的灵魂。”与某人保持适当的距离是他诺贝尔演讲的一个重要部分。
She was a profoundly religious thinker.
她是一位虔诚的宗教思想家。
He was quoting her all the time.
他一直在引用她的话。
Does she make sense to you as a thinker?
作为一个思想家，她对你有意义吗？
Or is it aphorisms?
或者是警句？
Aphorisms are a powerful way to learn.
格言是一种有效的学习方式。
But does it cohere?
但它有连贯性吗？
Schopenhauer, Nietzsche — more or less, their aphorisms cohere into a particular worldview.
叔本华、尼采——他们的格言或多或少都凝聚成一种特定的世界观。
Do hers cohere?
她的一致吗？
She was an odd and extreme thinker.
她是一个奇怪而极端的思想家。
I think many of them do.
我想他们中的很多人都这样做。
I don’t see her as a systematic thinker in that sense.
从这个意义上说，我不认为她是一个系统思想家。
Why does Miłosz assign such an important role to nature in his understanding of America?
为什么米沃什在他对美国的理解中赋予自然如此重要的作用？
Was that just a California thing?
这只是加州的事吗？
What if we had sent him to Rhode Island?
如果我们把他送到罗德岛怎么办？
No. We did, more or less.
不，我们或多或少做到了。
He spent time in Washington, DC, and New York City, but his first calling was to be a naturalist.
他曾在华盛顿特区和纽约待过一段时间，但他的第一个使命是成为一名博物学家。
That was his first attraction as a child.
这是他小时候的第一个吸引力。
He studied nature from a child.
他从小就研究自然。
The American wilderness puzzled and somewhat confused him.
美国的荒野让他感到困惑，甚至有点困惑。
As he put it, ten different kinds of oaks instead of three, like you’d have in Poland.
正如他所说，有十种不同种类的橡树，而不是波兰那样的三种。
Will Joseph Brodsky fall into a memory hole?
约瑟夫·布罗茨基会陷入记忆洞吗？
Do people still care?
人们还关心吗？
Yes.
是的。
You can’t read him in Russian, right?
你看不懂他的俄语，对吗？
Or most people can’t.
或者大多数人都做不到。
Poetry itself is much less popular unless you count something like rap music as a form of poetry, but that won’t help Brodsky.
诗歌本身不太受欢迎，除非你把说唱音乐这样的东西算作诗歌的一种形式，但这对布罗茨基没有帮助。
The essays are quite fine, but they don’t seem culturally central.
这些文章相当不错，但它们似乎并不是文化中心。
What about Brodsky will last?
布罗茨基会持续多久？
In America or in Russia?
在美国还是在俄罗斯？
In America, and then in Russia.
先是美国，然后是俄罗斯。
In Russia, he will never die.
在俄罗斯，他永远不会死。
He’s one of the great poets of the 20th century.
他是20世纪最伟大的诗人之一。
In America, I think a lot of it depends on the future translations.
在美国，我认为这很大程度上取决于未来的翻译。
The wordplay in his poems, the inventiveness is such that it makes it very difficult to squash it into the English language.
他的诗歌中的双关语、创造性是如此之大，以至于很难将其压缩成英语。
There’s been attempts, there’s been controversy, there’s been issues with the estate and everything else.
有过尝试，有争议，有遗产和其他一切问题。
I hope that we someday get a good complete volume of Joseph Brodsky in English that is as magical as the original version.
我希望有一天我们能得到一本完整的英文版约瑟夫·布罗茨基，它和原版一样神奇。
What do you think of the claim that he was the first or maybe only Russian poet to have mastered the English metaphysical tradition like John Donne?
您如何看待他是第一个或可能是唯一一个像约翰·多恩一样掌握英国形而上学传统的俄罗斯诗人？
I think mastered is a big word.
我认为掌握是一个很大的词。
COWEN: Grappled with.
COWEN： 正在努力解决。
I think he grappled with it.
我认为他正在努力解决这个问题。
It’s hard for us in English to see how well that works.
对于我们英语国家来说，很难看出它的效果如何。
The Butterfly is a masterpiece.
《蝴蝶》是一部杰作。
As you know, I wrote Conversations with George Kline, and that was a masterpiece translation.
如你所知，我写了《与乔治·克莱恩对话》，那是一部杰作翻译。
Give us more masterpiece translations, and we’ll have a better judgment.
给我们更多的杰作翻译，我们会有更好的判断。
Why was Brodsky so terrible on the Ukraine issue?
布罗茨基为何在乌克兰问题上如此糟糕？
His poem on Ukraine, you can find a version of it online.
他关于乌克兰的诗，你可以在网上找到它的版本。
You can hear it in the original Russian on YouTube.
您可以在 YouTube 上听到俄语原文。
He sounds as bad as Putin, right?
他听起来和普京一样糟糕，对吧？
Why?
为什么？
Where did he go wrong?
他哪里错了？
It’s not just that poem.
这不仅仅是那首诗。
He got into a fight with Derek Walcott at a famous conference when he was belittling the smaller nations of the world.
在一次著名的会议上，当德里克·沃尔科特贬低世界上的小国家时，他与德里克·沃尔科特发生了争执。
There’s a national imperialism of Russia that is not just Putin.
俄罗斯有一个民族帝国主义，不仅仅是普京。
It goes all the way down.
它一路向下。
I think that poem about Ukraine is indeed very unfortunate.
我认为那首关于乌克兰的诗确实很不幸。
It’s not going to serve his legacy well.
这不会很好地服务于他的遗产。
It doesn’t serve common sense well.
它不太符合常识。
How do you model the mistake he made?
你如何模拟他所犯的错误？
What was the problem in his broader worldview?
他更广泛的世界观存在什么问题？
He was a Russian imperialist.
他是俄罗斯帝国主义者。
The fight with Derek Walcott was on the importance of his own nation, and it’s a strong streak in the Russian culture.
与德里克·沃尔科特的斗争是关于他自己国家的重要性，这是俄罗斯文化中的一个重要特征。
And he simply never gave it up, even after he came here.
即使他来到这里之后，他也从未放弃过。
“What’s bred in the bone will out in the flesh.” Yes, he never gave it up, not entirely.
“骨中孕育的东西，将在肉中显现出来。”是的，他从未放弃，不是完全放弃。
I think it became a smaller portion of his psyche.
我认为这已成为他心灵的一小部分。
If we think of your own career — you’re, at age 17, a reporter, and now you’re writing books about continental philosophy.
如果我们考虑一下你自己的职业——17 岁的你是一名记者，现在你正在写有关大陆哲学的书籍。
How did that happen?
这是怎么发生的？
And was that bred in your bone, so to speak?
可以这么说，这是你骨子里培养出来的吗？
Yes, very much so.
是的，非常如此。
I began at 17 as a reporter, actually at 16.
我 17 岁开始当记者，实际上是 16 岁。
It teaches you a lot of things.
它教会你很多东西。
It teaches you to perform on deadline.
它教你在截止日期前完成任务。
It teaches you not to object to your work getting edited, which is a problem with a lot of authors.
它教会你不要反对你的作品被编辑，这是很多作者面临的问题。
It teaches you to be flexible.
它教会你要灵活。
It teaches you how to ask questions.
它教你如何提问。
It teaches you how to do interviews.
它教你如何进行采访。
Lots of good skills there.
那里有很多好技能。
When and how did the turn to philosophy come?
转向哲学是何时以及如何发生的？
I don’t know there was a turn to philosophy.
我不知道有转向哲学的倾向。
Literature was part of me, too.
文学也是我的一部分。
I was reading Les Misérables as a little girl.
当我还是个小女孩的时候，我正在读《悲惨世界》。
I’m not interested in philosophy per se.
我对哲学本身不感兴趣。
I was interested in René Girard.
我对雷内·吉拉德很感兴趣。
I think I can promise I would not write about another philosopher.
我想我可以保证我不会写另一位哲学家。
It’s a huge field of study.
这是一个巨大的研究领域。
But you’re interested in philosophical poets and writers, correct?
但您对哲学诗人和作家感兴趣，对吗？
I’m interested in thinking.
我对思考感兴趣。
We’re talking about thinking.
我们谈论的是思考。
I’m interested in people who ask big questions, and all those people ask big questions.
我对提出重大问题的人感兴趣，所有这些人都提出重大问题。
Why such a strong interest in interviews?
为什么对采访有如此浓厚的兴趣？
Which I share with you, obviously, doing a podcast, but where does that come from in you?
显然，我在做播客时与您分享这一点，但您的播客从何而来？
Nosiness?
爱管闲事？
As a young woman, it gave me a chance to meet interesting people.
作为一名年轻女性，它让我有机会结识有趣的人。
Lots of people like to be interviewed.
很多人都喜欢接受采访。
It was a chance to ask a lot of questions and learn a lot of things.
这是一个提出很多问题并学习很多东西的机会。
What is your philosophy of what is missing in most other people’s interviews?
对于大多数其他人的采访中所缺少的东西，你的哲学是什么？
I don’t know that it’s a philosophy.
我不知道这是一种哲学。
You must think you’re adding something, right?
你一定认为你正在添加一些东西，对吧？
I’m interested in big questions.
我对大问题感兴趣。
I think a lot of people aren’t.
我想很多人都不是。
A lot of interviewers aren’t.
很多面试官都不是。
It’s not an era for big questions, is it?
这不是一个需要大问题的时代，不是吗？
2022?
2022 年？
I’m not sure.
我不知道。
Really?
真的吗？
Maybe the questions are either too big or too small and not enough in between.
也许问题要么太大，要么太小，而介于两者之间的问题又不够。
That’s an interesting point of view.
这是一个有趣的观点。
There’s plenty of ideology in the world and in this country.
世界上和这个国家有很多意识形态。
It doesn’t have to be a good thing, but —
这不一定是好事，但是 ——
Ideology is different than big questions, I think.
我认为意识形态与大问题不同。
Sure.
当然。
The kinds of questions Miłosz asked, about questions of being.
米沃什提出的关于存在的问题。
What do you think is the best question he asked?
你认为他问的最好的问题是什么？
The best question he asked.
他问的最好的问题。
He was fascinated, beginning in the 1970s, with the loss of what he called “second space,” with the loss of the religious dimension in human thinking, with the loss of any notion beyond the little here and the little now.
从 20 世纪 70 年代开始，他着迷于他所谓的“第二空间”的丧失，人类思维中宗教维度的丧失，以及除了此时此刻之外的任何概念的丧失。
He explored that beginning with a fragmentary science fiction experiment called Second Space.
他从一个名为“第二空间”的碎片科幻实验开始对此进行探索。
Second Space was the title of the last volume that is published with his supervision.
《第二空间》是他监督出版的最后一卷的标题。
He was very restless about that, and I think it is a powerful thing to explore.
他对此非常不安，我认为这是一个值得探索的强大事物。
Do you like Stanisław Lem?
你喜欢斯坦尼斯瓦夫·莱姆吗？
Yes, I’m intrigued.
是的，我很好奇。
Yes.
是的。
That’s literary, but also philosophical.
这是文学性的，也是哲学性的。
Yes, I can’t claim great familiarity with him.
是的，我不能说我和他很熟悉。
I’m not a fan of science fiction in general, but I am a fan of Miłosz.
我一般不喜欢科幻小说，但我是米沃什的粉丝。
How did you become a good reader?
你是如何成为一名优秀的读者的？
Starting young.
从年轻开始。
I was reading George Bernard Shaw and Victor Hugo when I was in elementary school.
我上小学时就读过萧伯纳和维克多雨果的书。
Because you had to or because you wanted to?
因为你必须这样做还是因为你想这样做？
Because I wanted to.
因为我想这么做。
You wanted to.
你想要的。
The stuff that they were giving us was dreck.
他们给我们的东西很糟糕。
I like the good stuff.
我喜欢好东西。
Has Shaw held up well at all?
Shaw的表现还好吗？
I look at it periodically, but it never interests me.
我定期看它，但它从来没有引起我的兴趣。
I love Hugo.
我爱雨果。
Oh, that’s interesting.
哦，这很有趣。
It’s hard — he was so solidly of an era.
这很难——他是一个时代的坚定代表。
His plays aren’t performed much, and they haven’t been for a long time.
他的剧目上演的不多，而且已经很久没有上演了。
I like the wit.
我喜欢机智。
I like the sharpness.
我喜欢锐度。
I think they’ll last, but yes, we could use a revival.
我认为它们会持续下去，但是，是的，我们可以复兴。
What did you learn when you worked for Vogue?
你在《Vogue》工作时学到了什么？
Oh, you’ve seen the movie, The Devil Wears Prada?
哦，你看过电影《穿普拉达的女魔头》吗？
Yes.
是的。
I quite like that movie.
我非常喜欢那部电影。
It was very much the same way in London where I was working for Vogue and Condé Nast.
这与我在伦敦为《Vogue》和《Condé Nast》工作时的情况非常相似。
The same kind of ladders.
同一种梯子。
I was under Bea Miller rather than her American counterpart.
我是比·米勒（Bea Miller）领导的，而不是她的美国同行。
That was the first job I could get in London.
那是我在伦敦找到的第一份工作。
I was very glad to have it, but they didn’t make me into a fashion plate — horribly hopeless on fashion.
我很高兴拥有它，但他们并没有让我成为时尚板块——对时尚极度绝望。
But you wrote for them?
但你是为他们写的？
No, it was more like The Devil Wears Prada.
不，它更像是《穿普拉达的女王》。
I did edit an article by the sister of the Princess of Wales, or the Princess of Wales to be.
我确实编辑了威尔士王妃的妹妹或未来的威尔士王妃的妹妹的一篇文章。
That was my highlight — editing an article by Sarah Spencer.
这是我的亮点——编辑莎拉·斯宾塞的一篇文章。
What’s your favorite long train ride?
你最喜欢的长途火车旅行是什么？
Oh, jeez.
哦，天哪。
Kathmandu to Delhi?
加德满都 飞往 德里?
How long does that take?
这需要多长时间？
Oh gosh, it was so many years ago.
哦天哪，那是很多年前的事了。
Can’t recall.
记不清了。
How’d you end up in Kathmandu?
你怎么到了加德满都？
Flew.
飞了。
Airplane.
飞机。
COWEN: Why Kathmandu?
考恩：为什么选择加德满都？
Actually, I was working with Vogue’s travel editor, and he had just come back from Kathmandu and was telling me how beautiful it was.
事实上，我正在和《Vogue》的旅行编辑一起工作，他刚从加德满都回来，告诉我那里有多么美丽。
I was also seeing a man who was a concert pianist who was about to give a concert in Kathmandu.
我还见到了一位音乐会钢琴家，他即将在加德满都举办一场音乐会。
This was a twofer, so I could do both and pack it all up and leave for India and Nepal.
这是一个双重任务，所以我可以两者都做，然后收拾好行李前往印度和尼泊尔。
I turned the pages at the concert.
我在音乐会上翻了几页。
What did you think of Kyiv and Odesa when you visited there?
当您访问基辅和敖德萨时，您对那里有何看法？
Oh, I loved them.
哦，我爱他们。
What years were these?
这是什么年代的事？
That was 20 years ago, maybe.
那可能是20年前的事了。
Odesa is charming, and Kyiv is just absolutely beautiful.
敖德萨很迷人，基辅也绝对美丽。
I love the lavra caves, those tombs that they have underneath Kyiv.
我喜欢基辅地下的修道院洞穴和坟墓。
I very much hope that it survives all of this and that Odesa is restored to Ukraine.
我非常希望它能够安然度过这一切，并希望敖德萨能够回归乌克兰。
Moldova?
摩尔多瓦？
Moldova, too.
摩尔多瓦也一样。
Is Moldova fun or just interesting?
摩尔多瓦有趣还是仅仅有趣？
Everywhere is interesting.
每一处都很有趣。
I love traveling.
我喜欢旅行。
I love traveling.
我喜欢旅行。
I visited a Pushkin house in Moldova, I believe.
我相信我参观了摩尔多瓦的普希金故居。
Pushkin had houses everywhere in the Russian empire.
普希金在俄罗斯帝国各地都有房屋。
He had places that he stayed, and they’re all memorialized in Eastern Europe.
他有待过的地方，这些地方都在东欧被纪念。
How does traveling fit into your conception of yourself?
旅行如何符合您对自己的看法？
I don’t know that it does.
我不知道是不是这样。
I just want to see everything before I die.
我只想在死之前看到一切。
Well, that is a conception of yourself, right?
嗯，这是你自己的一个概念，对吗？
For me, it’s a kind of ultimate unit of account.
对我来说，这是一种最终的记账单位。
I value money, but I value money because it can get me places.
我看重金钱，但我看重金钱是因为它可以让我获得地位。
I agree.
我同意。
It drives me nuts I won’t even be able to .
这让我发疯，我什至无法做到。
.
。
.
。
I’ve never been to Greece.
我从未去过希腊。
I don’t love Greece.
我不爱希腊。
I’m certainly glad I went, but it was uglier than I was expecting.
我当然很高兴我去了，但它比我想象的要丑陋。
Seeing ancient Greek civilization in Turkey and Sicily was, in some ways, more rewarding than seeing it in Greece.
从某些方面来说，在土耳其和西西里岛参观古希腊文明比在希腊参观更有价值。
The museum in Athens was amazing, but I was a bit let down overall, I have to say.
雅典的博物馆很棒，但我不得不说，总体来说我有点失望。
Just too much concrete somehow.
不知何故，混凝土太多了。
What’s your favorite country?
你最喜欢哪个国家？
I love Latin America.
我爱拉丁美洲。
I’ve lived in Germany, New Zealand, been to Mexico, I think, 31 times.
我在德国、新西兰住过，我记得还去过墨西哥 31 次。
My wife is from the Soviet Union.
我的妻子来自苏联。
There are so many places I could pick, but my favorite country is the next one perhaps.
我可以选择的地方有很多，但我最喜欢的国家也许是下一个。
What will that be?
那会是什么？
It will be Ireland in June, and then Colombia in July and northern India in August.
六月是爱尔兰，七月是哥伦比亚，八月是印度北部。
I have never been to Ireland either, Greece and Ireland.
我也从未去过爱尔兰、希腊和爱尔兰。
It will be, I think, my fourth Irish trip, but I’ve never been to southern Ireland.
我想这将是我第四次爱尔兰之旅，但我从未去过爱尔兰南部。
I’m going to see Cork and Limerick, which are huge gaps in my knowledge base, but I will be there.
我要去科克和利默里克，这对我的知识库来说是巨大的空白，但我会去那里。
Doesn’t it bother you that you could die without having seen everything?
如果你没有看到一切就可能死去，你不会感到困扰吗？
COWEN: I have this strange ambition to actually see every significant city in the New World, which is not everything by any means, but I don’t really have a strong ambition to see all of Africa.
考恩：我有一个奇怪的野心，想要真正看到新世界的每一个重要城市，无论如何，这并不是一切，但我并没有真正看到整个非洲的强烈野心。
It would interest me, but it just seems not feasible for a number of reasons.
我对此很感兴趣，但由于多种原因，这似乎不可行。
If I keep decent health, I feel within five years, I’ll have been able to see the significant cities of the New World.
如果我保持良好的健康状况，我觉得五年之内，我将能够看到新世界的重要城市。
That will make me happy, and I’ll write a book about it — the process of doing it, and what I thought the major questions were, and what I learned.
这会让我很高兴，我会写一本关于它的书——做这件事的过程，我认为主要问题是什么，以及我学到了什么。
That sounds like fun.
听起来很有趣。
That’s partly why I’m going to Colombia.
这就是我要去哥伦比亚的部分原因。
Northern Brazil is a big gap in my knowledge.
巴西北部对我来说是一个很大的知识空白。
The little countries — the Guyanas and Suriname — those are gaps.
小国家——圭亚那和苏里南——这些都是差距。
Venezuela is a problem.
委内瑞拉是一个问题。
If anything stops me, it’ll be danger in Venezuela.
如果有什么能阻止我，委内瑞拉就会很危险。
There’s another version of it where I get everywhere but Venezuela.
还有另一个版本，除了委内瑞拉，我到处都可以找到。
What do you want to do before you die, besides see all these countries?
除了参观这些国家之外，你死前还想做什么？
See everywhere in Europe, minus Russia.
欧洲各地随处可见，俄罗斯除外。
Minus Russia?
减去俄罗斯？
It’s just not feasible anymore to include Russia.
将俄罗斯纳入其中已经不再可行。
But I’d love to go to Saratov, of course, but I’m not optimistic about that country.
但我当然很想去萨拉托夫，但我对那个国家并不乐观。
If I can, I will.
如果可以的话，我会的。
I’ve only been a few times.
我只去过几次。
I’ve never been to Lithuania or Malta or Montenegro.
我从未去过立陶宛、马耳他或黑山。
Obviously, southern Ireland, northern Poland.
显然是爱尔兰南部、波兰北部。
I’ve never been to eastern Slovakia.
我从未去过斯洛伐克东部。
I’ve never been to Puglia in Italy.
我从未去过意大利的普利亚。
I’ve never been to Brittany in France.
我从未去过法国的布列塔尼。
There are these huge gaps, but it does seem that they’re manageable.
存在这些巨大的差距，但它们似乎确实是可以控制的。
It’s not like someone saying, “Oh, I’ve never been to Austria,” and they’re starting from scratch.
这不像有人说，“哦，我从没去过奥地利”，然后他们就从头开始。
Yes.
是的。
Can I go back and tell a Brodsky story about his imperialism?
我可以回去讲一个布罗茨基关于他的帝国主义的故事吗？
Tell us the story.
告诉我们这个故事。
I was on Facebook, and for some reason, I posted something about Brodsky.
我在 Facebook 上，出于某种原因，我发布了一些关于布罗茨基的内容。
I can’t even remember what the topic was.
我什至不记得主题是什么。
It was when he was asked what he thought was the best way to see Moscow, he said from the cockpit of a B52.
当他被问及他认为游览莫斯科的最佳方式时，他在 B52 的驾驶舱内说道。
Everyone just attacked me for posting this, and how horrible it was that someone should say this.
每个人都因为我发布了这个而攻击我，有人说这个是多么可怕。
A few days later, there was the attack on Ukraine.
几天后，乌克兰遭遇袭击。
The thread went silent.
话题陷入沉默。
It suddenly seemed not such a vicious idea as it had when he posted it.
突然间，这个想法似乎不像他发布时那样恶毒了。
I hope that things change; I hope that Russia changes.
我希望事情能有所改变；我希望俄罗斯能够改变。
I have another book coming out in Russia.
我还有另一本书在俄罗斯出版。
How much interest in Russia is there in Girard?
俄罗斯对吉拉德有多大兴趣？
I hear quite a bit.
我听得不少。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
In Girard?
在吉拉德?
Really?
真的吗？
In Girard.
在吉拉德.
Do you ever get readers in Russia who write you emails?
您在俄罗斯遇到过给您写电子邮件的读者吗？
Somewhere here, I had the Russian edition of Evolution of Desire.
在这里的某个地方，我有俄语版的《欲望的进化》。
It was a top seller in Moscow.
这是莫斯科最畅销的产品。
So, there’s quite a bit of interest then.
所以，那时有相当大的兴趣。
Oh, you said René’s interest in Russia?
哦，你说雷内对俄罗斯感兴趣？
No. Russia’s interest in René.
不，俄罗斯对雷内感兴趣。
Yes, there is.
是的，有。
That’s why I was anxious to see it come out in Russia.
这就是为什么我渴望看到它在俄罗斯上映。
How do you think Russians read him differently?
您认为俄罗斯人对他的解读有何不同？
I haven’t spoken to them, but I think that what they’re going through has got resonances.
我还没有和他们交谈过，但我认为他们正在经历的事情引起了共鸣。
Again, this is not most of Russia.
再说一次，这不是俄罗斯的大部分地区。
We’re talking about the intelligentsia who are buying the books in Russia, not the people in the provinces.
我们谈论的是在俄罗斯购买书籍的知识分子，而不是各省的人民。
I hope it gets through.
我希望它能通过。
I want to go back to Moscow and, most of all, Petersburg.
我想回到莫斯科，最重要的是回到彼得堡。
How do you think Russians read Miłosz’s The Captive Mind?
您认为俄罗斯人如何阅读米沃什的《被囚禁的心灵》？
It must have gotten a Russian edition now.
现在肯定已经有俄语版了。
Again, I think the problem is, the Russians I know, my Russian friends — they know all of this stuff, but how do you get through to the others?
再说一次，我认为问题是，我认识的俄罗斯人，我的俄罗斯朋友 ——他们知道所有这些东西，但你如何与其他人沟通呢？
How do you get through to the ones that are still casting their votes for Putin?
您如何与那些仍在投票支持普京的人打交道？
Does the Russian intelligentsia know?
俄罗斯知识分子知道吗？
I’m never quite convinced.
我从来不太相信。
They seem to know and not know.
他们似乎知道，又似乎不知道。
The ones even who move to the United States and face no censorship — a lot of them are still pro-Putin, especially if they’re not Jewish.
即使那些移居美国且不受审查的人——其中很多人仍然支持普京，尤其是如果他们不是犹太人的话。
The ones that I know are ashamed.
我认识的人都感到羞耻。
They’re ashamed of the war, but before the war, they were often pro-Putin or at least anti-anti-Putin.
他们对战争感到羞耻，但在战前，他们往往是支持普京的，或者至少是反对反普京的。
No, there’s a liberal class in Russia, and those are the ones that are publishing my books.
不，俄罗斯有一个自由主义阶级，他们就是出版我的书的人。
Maria Stepanova is a good friend of mine.
玛丽亚·斯特潘诺娃是我的好朋友。
She’s one of the leading writers in Russia.
她是俄罗斯领先的作家之一。
My publisher for the Brodsky book has a lot of Russians on its staff.
我的布罗茨基书的出版商有很多俄罗斯人。
They know what the truth is.
他们知道真相是什么。
Don’t you ever wonder how Russian propaganda works?
难道你不知道俄罗斯的宣传是如何运作的吗？
During the pandemic, Putin works very hard to convince people the vaccine is great.
在大流行期间，普京非常努力地让人们相信疫苗很棒。
People are really not sold on that notion.
人们确实不相信这个想法。
There’s a low rate of vaccine uptake in Russia.
俄罗斯的疫苗接种率很低。
People worry about batch problems — correctly, it turns out.
人们担心批次问题——事实证明这是正确的。
They’re skeptical about the vaccine to begin with, even though in theory, actually, the vaccine is probably not so bad.
他们一开始就对疫苗持怀疑态度，尽管从理论上讲，实际上，疫苗可能并没有那么糟糕。
The propaganda doesn’t work.
宣传没有作用。
Then there’s this much more horrible message being sold to people — not “take the vaccine,” but “The war in Ukraine is a good thing.
然后，向人们兜售的则是更可怕的信息——不是“接种疫苗”，而是“乌克兰战争是一件好事。
It’s a police action.” Whatever account of it you wish to give.
这是警方的行动。”无论你想给出什么解释。
So many Russians buy that, yet you can’t talk them into the vaccine.
很多俄罗斯人都买这种疫苗，但你却无法说服他们接种疫苗。
What are we supposed to think about that?
对此我们应该怎么想？
Isn’t there some abnegation of intellectual responsibility at some level in a society like that?
在这样的社会中，难道在某种程度上不存在对知识分子责任的放弃吗？
They are capable of resisting messages from Putin.
他们有能力抵制普京的信息。
I have no answers for that.
我对此没有答案。
Maria closed her online newspaper, Colta, a few days after this began, after her whole staff signed an editorial saying “no war.” It was on the front page.
事情发生几天后，玛丽亚关闭了她的在线报纸《Colta》，此前她的全体员工都签署了一篇社论称“不要战争”。它在头版上。
If the good guys can’t publish, who’s going to be disseminating information?
如果好人不能发布，谁来传播信息？
There’s plenty of rumor.
有很多谣言。
There’s plenty of sources of samizdat, even under the Soviet Union.
即使在苏联时期，地下出版物的来源也有很多。
There are plenty of official claims that during the Soviet Union, people simply didn’t believe.
在苏联时期，有很多官方说法，但人们根本不相信。
But now, today, “the war is okay” is, for the most part, the winning message in Russia — I think.
但现在，今天，“战争没问题”在很大程度上是俄罗斯获胜的信息 ——我认为。
It’s hard to tell from this distance.
从这个距离很难判断。
Maybe it’s as you said — under-the-cover imperialism coming to the fore again.
或许正如你所说的——“暗中的帝国主义再次暴露出来”。
Just like Brodsky was keen about stomping on Ukraine.
就像布罗茨基热衷于践踏乌克兰一样。
Let’s keep in mind that Brodsky didn’t have a lot of military power or political power.
让我们记住，布罗茨基没有太多的军事权力或政治权力。
It’s one thing to mouth off from a pre-existing imperialist streak for Russia.
对俄罗斯先前存在的帝国主义倾向嗤之以鼻是一回事。
It’s another thing to attack and kill Ukrainians.
攻击和杀害乌克兰人是另一回事。
Is there an active samizdat in Russia right now?
俄罗斯现在有活跃的地下出版物吗？
People using VPNs or different ways of accessing the internet?
人们使用 VPN 或不同的方式访问互联网？
There seem to be at least a few million people doing that.
似乎至少有数百万人在这样做。
Okay.
好的。
I was thinking olden days with passing out leaflets and things, but you’re right.
我在想过去发传单之类的事情，但你是对的。
Of course, there’s VPN.
当然，还有VPN。
Let’s hope it gets through.
希望它能成功。
What do you think are the forms of propaganda that we Americans are falling for right now?
您认为我们美国人现在所迷恋的宣传形式是什么？
You believe in mimesis.
你相信模仿。
You like the thought of Girard, Miłosz.
你喜欢吉拉德的想法，米沃什。
What is it?
它是什么？
Russian citizens are screwing up the war in Ukraine.
俄罗斯公民正在搞砸乌克兰战争。
What’s our failing as American citizens?
作为美国公民，我们的失败是什么？
You’re on Twitter, yes?
你在推特上，是吗？
COWEN: I’m on Twitter.
考恩：我在推特上。
But what do you think is the failing?
但你认为失败的原因是什么？
It’s mimesis.
这是模仿。
It’s this tendency for people to just join in to meet two momentums.
正是这种趋势让人们加入进来以满足两种动力。
It happens very fast in the US, I think, because so many of us are on social media.
我认为，这种情况在美国发生得非常快，因为我们很多人都在使用社交媒体。
It’s our willingness to believe.
这是我们愿意相信的。
I think our value system has become so seduced by commercial forces, it’s hard to find serious forms of thinking.
我认为我们的价值体系已经变得如此受商业力量的诱惑，很难找到严肃的思维形式。
Maybe not for you, but for people in much of America.
也许不适合你，但适合美国大部分地区的人们。
I might be killed for saying this, but when your models are people like Trump, what are you going to get in the way of depth?
我可能会因为这样说而被杀，但是当你的模特是像特朗普这样的人时，你会遇到什么阻碍深度的事情呢？
What are you going to get in the way of .
你会遇到什么障碍。
.
。
.
。
I keep saying, “If you want those kinds of people to go away, we have to change the value system in America.”
我一直说，“如果你想让这类人消失，我们就必须改变美国的价值体系。”
One of the things that creates a value system is the humanities.
创造价值体系的事物之一就是人文学科。
In a place where the humanities and reading are suffering decline, then the other models are going to come up and spring and be forceful.
在人文学科和阅读正在衰落的地方，其他模式将会崛起并产生强大的影响力。
We listen to crappy commercials.
我们听蹩脚的广告。
We listen to crappy memes.
我们听蹩脚的模因。
It’s going to be — without changing how we think by changing what we admire, what we are willing to imitate, the worst will rise to the fore.
这将会是——如果我们不通过改变我们所欣赏的事物、我们愿意模仿的事物来改变我们的思维方式，那么最糟糕的就会脱颖而出。
Does that make any sense?
这有什么意义吗？
Yes, but I wonder often whether the truly dangerous mimesis is some form of people attacking the superficially dangerous form of mimesis.
是的，但我经常想知道，真正危险的模仿是否是某种形式的人攻击表面上危险的模仿形式。
I’m not at all a Trump supporter, but often, I see more Girardian behavior amongst the critics of Trump than the Trumpians themselves.
我根本不是特朗普的支持者，但我经常在特朗普的批评者中看到更多的吉拉德行为，而不是特朗普派本身。
In some ways, they seem more free-thinking to me, and in ways I object to.
在某些方面，他们对我来说似乎更自由，但在某些方面我却反对。
But if you want to see your real Twitter pile-on, praise Trump in some manner, even for something good he did, like Operation Warp Speed, one of the few things he did where I would say that was really wonderful.
但如果你想看到你真正的推特堆积如山，请以某种方式赞扬特朗普，即使是他做了一些好事，比如“曲速行动”，这是他所做的为数不多的我认为非常精彩的事情之一。
You get creamed much more for supporting Trump than attacking him.
支持特朗普会比攻击他受到更多的打击。
Where the dangerous mimesis really is embedded in the system, I’m never quite sure.
我一直不太确定危险的模仿到底嵌入在系统中的哪个位置。
I understand your point, and I agree with it.
我理解你的观点，也同意你的观点。
I would just like to see us value more thinking.
我只是希望看到我们重视更多的思考。
I’d like to see us value literature again.
我希望看到我们再次重视文学。
I’d like to see us value poetry again.
我希望看到我们再次重视诗歌。
I think that this is a question about argument.
我认为这是一个关于论证的问题。
People have tact, and they’ve talked about Nazis that used to listen to Haydn and stuff like that, but I do think that there’s a better chance of something good getting through if you’re reading Czesław Miłosz than if you are reading Twitter feeds.
人们都很机智，他们谈论过纳粹曾经听海顿之类的东西，但我确实认为，如果你阅读切斯瓦夫·米沃什的作品，比你阅读 Twitter 的内容更有可能获得好东西。
If we valued intelligent thinking, intelligent speaking in our public lives, I think we’d be less likely to get the kind of candidates that we’re getting.
如果我们在公共生活中重视聪明的思考和聪明的演讲，我认为我们不太可能得到现在这样的候选人。
Now, you spent some number of years writing profiles of Stanford faculty.
现在，您花了几年时间撰写斯坦福大学教师的简介。
Without asking you to name names, but what’s your sense of the system overall?
不要求你说出名字，但你对整个系统的感觉如何？
Is it producing and supporting those great thinkers?
它是否产生并支持了那些伟大的思想家？
When I was doing that for Stanford, I wanted to focus on those people that I thought were the last of their kinds.
当我为斯坦福大学做这件事时，我想关注那些我认为是最后一批的人。
I thought of them as living legends.
我认为他们是活生生的传奇人物。
I wrote profiles of people like Robert Conquest.
我写过像罗伯特·康奎斯特这样的人的简介。
You know him?
你认识他吗？
A great scholar, of course.
当然是一位伟大的学者。
A great scholar who was the first to really uncover the extent of Stalinism and the murders and the crimes under Stalinism.
一位伟大的学者，第一个真正揭露斯大林主义的范围以及斯大林主义下的谋杀和罪行。
He was also a poet.
他也是一位诗人。
I wrote about Joseph Frank, the noted biographer of Dostoevsky, a five-volume series.
我写了关于陀思妥耶夫斯基著名传记作家约瑟夫·弗兰克的五卷本系列。
That was my excuse for getting to know René Girard, as I profiled him.
当我介绍雷内·吉拉德时，这就是我认识他的借口。
Carl Weber, the dramatist who was a student of Bertolt Brecht.
卡尔·韦伯，剧作家，贝尔托·布莱希特的学生。
Brecht, yes.
布莱希特，是的。
If we’re so mimetic, why aren’t we reproducing those people?
如果我们如此善于模仿，为什么我们不复制那些人呢？
Because we don’t value them.
因为我们不重视他们。
They’re famous names.
他们都是名人。
They’ve probably earned — some of them — a fair amount of income.
他们可能已经赚取了————其中一些人————相当数量的收入。
Oh, I don’t think you get rich by being a — COWEN: Not rich, but within academia, they’ve done relatively well.
哦，我不认为你会通过成为一个人而变得富有。 COWEN：不富有，但在学术界，他们做得相对不错。
Joseph Frank — I still know who he is.
约瑟夫·弗兰克 — 我仍然知道他是谁。
I’m just some old economist.
我只是一个老经济学家。
Well, they all died within a few years of my getting to know them.
好吧，在我认识他们之后的几年内，他们都死了。
That’s the problem of dealing with the old giants — the old giants tend to disappear.
这就是处理老巨人的问题——老巨人往往会消失。
I asked the same questions you’re asking.
我问了你同样的问题。
Who replaces them?
谁来取代他们？
Who’s asking the big questions?
谁在问重大问题？
Do you ever wish you were ensconced in academic life with tenure?
您是否曾希望自己能够获得终身教职并融入学术生活？
Like really wish it.
就像真的希望那样。
I know at times, you might think, “Oh, it would be nice.” But truly, in the button-pushing sense, wish it.
我知道有时候，你可能会想，“哦，那就太好了。”但实际上，从按下按钮的意义上来说，希望如此。
I’m the first in my family to have any university degree at all.
我是家里第一个拥有大学学位的人。
The idea of becoming a faculty member never crossed my mind until I found myself working within academia.
直到我发现自己在学术界工作之前，我从未想过成为一名教员。
Sure, I fantasize.
当然，我也幻想过。
Sure, I think it’d be wonderful to be able to have a salary and to be able to not live as a freelance writer.
当然，我认为能够有薪水并且能够不以自由作家的身份生活真是太好了。
On the other hand, I couldn’t have done the things that I did.
另一方面，我不可能做我所做的事情。
There was an enormous pressure towards conformity within academia.
学术界内部存在着巨大的服从压力。
Would I have been able to write the first biography of René Girard if I had been?
如果我能写出雷内·吉拉德的第一本传记，我还能写吗？
I don’t think it’d be something that necessarily would’ve been encouraged within an academic atmosphere.
我认为学术氛围中不一定会鼓励这种做法。
This is something I could do because I was an outsider to some extent.
这是我能做的事情，因为我在某种程度上是一个局外人。
I’ve had a wonderful life doing this.
我这样做过得很美好。
I’ve been able to sit there and explore the greatest minds that I’ve known in my life, some of the greatest people.
我能够坐在那里探索我一生中所认识的最伟大的思想家，一些最伟大的人。
René was not just a wonderful and seminal thinker.
雷内不仅仅是一位出色的、具有开创性的思想家。
He was a genuinely decent and generous human being, one of the best that I’ve known.
他是一个真正正派和慷慨的人，是我所认识的最好的人之一。
Czesław Miłosz was a hell of a lot of fun to interview.
采访切斯瓦夫·米沃什非常有趣。
I was lucky because I happened to be the last person to get in to interview him before he went back to Poland.
我很幸运，因为我恰好是他回波兰之前最后一个采访他的人。
Those were opportunities that I had to take advantage of while they were still there.
当这些机会还存在时，我必须好好利用它们。
Had I waited —
如果我等待 ——
Our last question to close out the hour.
我们结束这一小时的最后一个问题。
What will you be doing next?
接下来你会做什么？
That’s a secret.
这是一个秘密。
I’ll tell you offline.
我离线告诉你。
COWEN: Okay.
考恩：好的。
In any case, we all wish you luck with that.
无论如何，我们都祝你好运。
Very good chatting with you, Cynthia L.
与你聊天非常愉快，Cynthia L.
Haven.
避风港。
And, everyone, she has numerous books, most recently a biography of René Girard called Evolution of Desire, and also a book on the life of Czesław Miłosz in California.
大家，她有很多书，最近出版了一本雷内·吉拉德的传记，名为《欲望的进化》，还有一本关于切斯瓦夫·米沃什在加利福尼亚州生活的书。
I should add the Penguin Modern Classics anthology for René Girard, which I’m editing, will be out next year.
我应该添加雷内·吉拉德的企鹅现代经典选集，我正在编辑该选集，将于明年出版。
Cynthia, thank you very much.
辛西娅，非常感谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thumbnail photo credit: Margo Davis
缩略图照片来源：Margo Davis