Craig Newmark on Institutional Maintenance, Giving Away Control, and the Internet We Were Promised - Live at 92NY (Ep. 276)
Craig, hello.
克雷格，你好。
Welcome.
欢迎。
Good to meet you.
很高兴认识你。
As founder of Craigslist, I have a very simple question for you.
作为 Craigslist 的创始人，我有一个非常简单的问题要问你。
Why does it seem as if webpage design has just gotten worse for 30 years running?
为什么 30 年来网页设计看起来似乎越来越糟糕？
In my ignorance, when I first put up the first Craigslist site, I just kept it simple, knowing I have no design skills—except simplicity and speed is a design criterion.
在我的无知中，当我第一次建立第一个 Craigslist 网站时，我只是保持简单，因为我知道我没有设计技能——除了简单和速度是一个设计标准。
And people haven’t gotten the message.
人们还没有收到消息。
I’ve seen designers do some very attractive work that no one has asked for, and I appreciate it.
我见过设计师做了一些非常有吸引力的作品，但没有人要求，我很欣赏。
Since I relinquished any management control of Craigslist in 2000, Jim Buckmaster has kept the design clean.
自从 2000 年我放弃了对 Craigslist 的任何管理控制权以来，吉姆·巴克马斯特 (Jim Buckmaster) 一直保持着设计的简洁。
Sometimes I like seeing fancy design, but as a general rule, I just want to get the thing done.
有时我喜欢看到奇特的设计，但一般来说，我只想把事情做好。
On any site, I want to get the thing done and get on with my life.
在任何网站上，我都想完成任务并继续我的生活。
How do you stop them from adding bells and whistles and making it complicated?
你如何阻止他们添加花哨的东西并使事情变得复杂？
Them at Craigslist, no need.
他们在 Craigslist，不需要。
Jim is committed.
吉姆承诺了。
Throughout the whole world, I just struggle like anyone else.
在整个世界上，我只是像其他人一样奋斗。
When I want to cancel a streaming service, it is never straightforward.
当我想取消流媒体服务时，事情从来都不是那么简单。
What then was wrong with the 1990s web?
那么 20 世纪 90 年代的网络出了什么问题呢？
People did move away from it.
人们确实远离了它。
There’s now so many walled gardens, so many complex websites.
现在有这么多的围墙花园，这么多复杂的网站。
I react with horror when I have to buy a ticket and then upload it into an app, and it feels it could all be simpler.
当我必须买票然后将其上传到应用程序时，我的反应很恐怖，感觉这一切都可以更简单。
Why didn’t things stay where they were?
为什么事情没有留在原来的地方？
What’s your account of that?
你对此有何看法？
The big problem is that people, to do successful sites, as time went on, had to compete more and more.
最大的问题是，随着时间的推移，人们为了创建成功的网站，必须进行越来越多的竞争。
That meant they had to attract venture capital, I guess, who made more and more demands of them, where people had to extract whatever dollars they could out of their site.
我想，这意味着他们必须吸引风险投资，风险投资对他们提出了越来越多的要求，人们必须从他们的网站中提取尽可能多的资金。
Then, I guess, that began a process of what Cory Doctorow calls enshittification.
然后，我想，这开始了科里·多克托罗所说的“enshitification”过程。
He captured the process much better than I just articulated it.
他对整个过程的描述比我刚才描述的要好得多。
He’s also a bit of a hero of mine in that he’s more articulate about our rights online.
他也是我心目中的英雄，因为他更清楚地阐述了我们的在线权利。
He’s also braver than I am because he’s okay with putting a target on his own back.
他也比我勇敢，因为他愿意把目标放在自己的背上。
Oh, and he writes good novels.
哦，他写的小说也很好。
On stepping aside as CEO
关于辞去首席执行官一职
I have a question.
我有一个问题。
This is from GPT, and I quote, “Your biggest decisions all look subtractive.
这是来自 GPT，我引用：“你最大的决定看起来都是减法。
You monetized as little as possible, stepped aside as CEO, kept doing customer service, and now, in philanthropy, you prefer to fund people and get out of the way.
你尽可能少地赚钱，辞去了首席执行官的职务，继续做客户服务，而现在，在慈善事业中，你更愿意为人们提供资金并避开。
What are you subtracting from yourself that other founders are addicted to?” Pretty good of GPT, isn’t it?
你从自己身上减去了哪些其他创始人所沉迷的东西？” GPT 非常好，不是吗？
Yes, that’s a valid perspective.
是的，这是一个有效的观点。
I think of it differently, mostly because, as I age, and have grown a decrepit, I’ve realized my limitations and that I’m not good at things.
我有不同的看法，主要是因为，随着年龄的增长，我变得衰老，我意识到自己的局限性，并且我不擅长做事。
I realize that accidentally I’ve built networks of networks, and it’s the networks of networks that get stuff done.
我意识到我无意中建立了网络的网络，而正是网络的网络完成了工作。
Sometimes I can find network builders who can do the stuff I want to on my behalf, and they get it done.
有时我可以找到网络构建者，他们可以代表我做我想做的事情，然后他们就能完成。
The best examples, Blue Star Families for military families, Bob Woodruff Foundation for vets.
最好的例子是为军人家庭提供蓝星家庭，为退伍军人提供鲍勃伍德拉夫基金会。
I’m not subtracting things.
我不会做减法。
I’m just becoming much more effective overall by sharing power and money.
通过分享权力和金钱，我整体上变得更加高效。
That seems to be working.
这似乎有效。
Also, by building networks of networks, just in the past week or two, I’ve realized that’s the most effective form of estate planning I’m doing because as I become elderly, I have to wonder how my work is going to survive me.
另外，通过建立网络的网络，就在过去的一两周内，我意识到这是我正在做的最有效的遗产规划形式，因为当我变老时，我不得不想知道我的工作将如何在我身后继续存在。
I could create Craig GPT, or I could just come back and haunt people for due diligence purposes, but the networks of networks have a life of their own.
我可以创建 Craig GPT，或者我可以出于尽职调查的目的回来困扰人们，但网络的网络有自己的生命。
On customer service and social skills
关于客户服务和社交技能
What is scarce in your life then?
那你的生活中还有什么稀缺的呢？
You’re giving away money.
你正在捐钱。
You don’t have to run the company on a day-to-day basis.
您不必每天运营公司。
We’d all like more years to live, but what is it that if you had more of it, you could be more effective with?
我们都希望活得更久，但是如果你活得更多，你可以更有效地做什么呢？
I guess, ideally, I would have more social skills—meaning, some.
我想，理想情况下，我应该有更多的社交技能——也就是说，有一些。
We’re simulating social skills just fine here.
我们在这里很好地模拟了社交技能。
That’s the phrase I use.
这就是我使用的短语。
At least on my part, what looks like social skills is just fakery.
至少在我看来，那些看似社交技巧的东西其实都是假的。
I can do it for short amounts of time, maybe 90 minutes.
我可以做很短的时间，也许 90 分钟。
I’ve given up, though, on actually accumulating social skills, getting better at it.
不过，我已经放弃了实际积累社交技能、提高社交技能的想法。
More to the point, I try to get into positions where other people can show social skills.
更重要的是，我尝试进入其他人可以展示社交技能的职位。
One journalist once described you as having “obsessive customer service disorder.” Isn’t that a social skill?
一位记者曾形容你患有“强迫性客户服务障碍”。这难道不是一种社交能力吗？
That’s more obsession, so it’s pathological, but a good one.
这更像是一种痴迷，所以这是病态的，但却是一种好的现象。
I believe that you should treat people like you want to be treated.
我相信你应该像对待别人一样对待别人。
Think of the many times that you needed customer service.
想想您多次需要客户服务。
Sometimes you can get good customer service, but that’s the exception.
有时您可以获得良好的客户服务，但这是例外。
That’s no reason for us not to provide a good customer service.
我们没有理由不提供良好的客户服务。
Like earlier today, someone sent in a grant proposal, and I had to tell them that they forgot to sign the thing, a very minor thing.
就像今天早些时候一样，有人提交了一份拨款提案，我不得不告诉他们他们忘记签署这个东西，这是一件非常小的事情。
More importantly, I’m telling people they need to do some planning for good communications because their work is much less valuable if they can’t talk about it effectively.
更重要的是，我告诉人们他们需要为良好的沟通做一些计划，因为如果他们不能有效地谈论他们的工作，那么他们的工作价值就会大大降低。
According to Susan Freese, who wrote about you, in one year, you answered 40,000 customer service emails.
根据撰写有关您的文章的 Susan Freese 的说法，您在一年内回复了 40,000 封客户服务电子邮件。
Is that possibly true?
这可能是真的吗？
If so, what did you learn about humanity doing that?
如果是这样，你从人类这样做中学到了什么？
I have the vague memory of being asked and then counting the number of emails I had sent that year.
我模糊地记得有人问过我，然后数了一下我那一年发送的电子邮件数量。
It’s hard to believe, but I work every day, so I guess that’s 10 times 365.
很难相信，但我每天都在工作，所以我猜这是 365 的 10 倍。
That’s maybe 4,000.
大概是 4,000。
I don’t know if I got the number right, but it’s too much.
我不知道我的数字是否正确，但太多了。
The thing is, like I say, a nerd’s got to do what a nerd’s got to do.
问题是，就像我说的，书呆子必须做书呆子必须做的事情。
What I learned about people doing customer service at Craigslist was that people everywhere are the same.
我从 Craigslist 的客户服务人员那里了解到，世界各地的人都是一样的。
We want to get through the day, which is sometimes tougher than other days.
我们想要度过这一天，这有时比其他日子更艰难。
One thing I noticed in New York is that New York is a collection of small towns, not so much a big city.
我在纽约注意到的一件事是，纽约是一个小镇的集合，而不是一个大城市。
New Yorkers aren’t all that different than people anywhere.
纽约人与其他地方的人并没有什么不同。
For the most part, New Yorkers want to get through the day.
大多数情况下，纽约人都想度过这一天。
It may be harder to get an apartment.
买公寓可能更难。
Rent stabilization is a passion.
稳定租金是一种热情。
Otherwise, people everywhere are similar.
否则，各地的人都是相似的。
The amount of bad actors is actually very tiny.
坏演员的数量实际上是很少的。
You became more trusting of people, helping them?
你变得更加信任别人，帮助他们？
Oddly enough, I did become more trusting.
奇怪的是，我确实变得更加信任。
Unfortunately, during those years, at first, I became less prepared to deal with bad actors.
不幸的是，在那些年里，一开始我并没有做好与坏演员打交道的准备。
I learned the hard way that if you’re basically honest, if you believe in the ninth commandment, you will never be able to confront successfully someone who lies for a living.
我从惨痛的教训中认识到，如果你基本上是诚实的，如果你相信第九条诫命，你将永远无法成功地对抗以撒谎为生的人。
That was a painful lesson that took a couple years to sink in.
这是一个惨痛的教训，花了几年时间才被接受。
It wasn’t a good year or two.
这不是一个美好的一年或两年。
I think much of Craigslist is saying you can trust other people if the incentives and institutions are correct.
我认为 Craigslist 的大部分内容都在说，如果激励措施和制度正确，你就可以信任其他人。
Your nine-second rule—wait for nine seconds and think before clicking on something you get, say, in your email or on a social network site—is a lack of trust.
你的九秒规则——在点击你在电子邮件或社交网站上收到的东西之前等待九秒并思考——是缺乏信任。
Is it that your views have changed, or how does the whole picture fit together?
是你的观点发生了变化，还是整个画面如何整合在一起？
I have learned something and my team has learned something from real life.
我学到了一些东西，我的团队也从现实生活中学到了一些东西。
The notion is that a normal, a very common technique of scammers is to rush you into something, to convince you of the scam by making it sound urgent.
这个想法是，骗子的一种常见的、非常常见的技术是催促你去做某件事，通过让你听起来很紧急来说服你相信这是一个骗局。
If you wait a little while, stereotypically nine seconds, you can reconsider what they’re doing, and then you can evade certain kinds of scams.
如果你等一会儿，通常是九秒，你可以重新考虑他们在做什么，然后你就可以逃避某些类型的骗局。
I screwed up in that respect about 10 years ago, but in a small way, I just lost a credit card number.
大约十年前，我在这方面搞砸了，但在某种程度上，我只是丢失了一个信用卡号码。
I realized it not long after and changed it, but that’s stupid.
不久之后我意识到了这一点并改变了它，但这很愚蠢。
I’m trying to learn other things as well, working potentially with the AARP because, if nothing else, my wife has to monitor her mom’s credit card purchases because there’s often issues there.
我也在尝试学习其他东西，可能会与美国退休人员协会合作，因为如果不出意外的话，我妻子必须监控她妈妈的信用卡购买情况，因为那里经常出现问题。
If I do this, what should I be thinking between second eight and second nine?
如果我这样做，在后八点和后九点之间我应该想什么？
I get what I should be thinking in the first few seconds, but at seven, eight rolls around, what am I doing?
我在最初几秒钟内就明白了自己应该思考的问题，但是到了七、八秒的时候，我在做什么？
If something still smells bad to you, I would either not do it or go right to the source.
如果某些东西仍然让你觉得难闻，我要么不做，要么直接去找源头。
If they say they’re pointing you to, let’s say, Amazon for something, I would say type in Amazon directly because a common technique of scammers or phishers is to get a domain name that might look like Amazon but isn’t.
如果他们说他们将您引向亚马逊，我会说直接输入亚马逊，因为诈骗者或网络钓鱼者的常见技术是获取可能看起来像亚马逊但实际上并非如此的域名。
If you use a font where you use an R followed by an N, some fonts make the RN together look like an M.
如果您使用的字体是 R 后跟 N，则某些字体会使 RN 看起来像 M。
You’ll go to what looks like Amazon, and they will capture your user ID and password.
你会去类似亚马逊的地方，他们会捕获你的用户 ID 和密码。
Then they’ll get you to Amazon, and you won’t know that they just stole your credentials.
然后他们会把你带到亚马逊，而你不会知道他们刚刚窃取了你的凭证。
That’s actually an illustration of a common technique for which solutions exist.
这实际上是现有解决方案的常见技术的说明。
A long story.
一个很长的故事。
There’s a cat-and-mouse game involved, but I’m trying to figure out what institutions to fund to stop that from happening.
这涉及到一场猫捉老鼠的游戏，但我正在努力找出应该资助哪些机构来阻止这种情况发生。
What is it that you understand about used goods that others do not?
对于二手货，您了解哪些其他人不了解的情况？
Probably nothing.
可能什么也没有。
The only thing is I want as few of them as possible because I worry about having too much stuff.
唯一的问题是我想要的东西越少越好，因为我担心东西太多。
Whenever I buy technology, knowing that I will replace it eventually, I try to get something that, even used, will be a good acquisition, typically by one of my nephews or nieces.
每当我购买技术时，我知道我最终会取代它，我会尝试购买一些即使使用过也将是一笔不错的收购的东西，通常是我的侄子或侄女之一。
My collection is 24 of them and counting.
我的收藏有 24 件，而且还在增加。
Missed connections used to be a feature.
错过连接曾经是一个特色。
“Oh, I saw you on the subway.
“哦，我在地铁上看到你了。
You seemed so smart.
你看起来很聪明。
You were reading Catcher in the Rye, whatever.” What happened to that?
不管怎样，你正在读《麦田里的守望者》。”那是怎么回事？
I think it’s still there, but in a different category altogether.
我认为它仍然存在，但完全属于不同的类别。
Over the years, over the decades, it does work now and then.
多年来，几十年来，它时不时地起作用。
I’ve been invited to weddings where they met each other through the site or where people had good relations.
我曾受邀参加他们通过网站认识的婚礼，或者人们关系良好的婚礼。
We all have had experiences where we meet someone, and there’s some chemistry, and neither party gets contact data, and it’s sad.
我们都有过这样的经历：遇见某个人，产生一些化学反应，但双方都没有得到联系方式，这很令人难过。
I’ve thought about that for a long time, but Jim just decided to put it up after he became a CEO sometime in the middle of 2001.
我已经考虑这个问题很长时间了，但吉姆在 2001 年中旬成为首席执行官后才决定把它提出来。
Why don’t dating apps work better?
为什么约会应用程序效果不佳？
If we mostly can trust people, right?
如果我们基本上可以信任别人，对吧？
The first date, you spend more than nine seconds with them.
第一次约会，你和他们在一起的时间超过九秒。
There’s many marriages from missed connections where you’ve even officiated, perhaps, yet everyone says dating apps are terrible.
有许多婚姻是因为错过了联系，也许是你主持的，但每个人都说约会应用程序很糟糕。
I don’t know because to have a gut feeling of them, I’d have to use them.
我不知道，因为要对它们有直觉，我必须使用它们。
Let’s say that they hit their stride after I had gotten involved with the future Mrs. Newmark.
假设我和未来的纽马克夫人交往后，他们就大踏步前进了。
I sense the opportunity for comedy coming on that will get me in trouble.
我感觉到喜剧的机会即将到来，这会给我带来麻烦。
Even alluding to that will probably get me in trouble after Eileen watches this.
在艾琳看到这个之后，即使是暗示这一点也可能会给我带来麻烦。
You know many smart people who articulate their concerns to you.
您认识很多聪明人，他们向您表达他们的担忧。
I hear from people all the time, dating apps are terrible.
我经常听到人们说约会应用程序很糟糕。
Why dating apps are terrible?
为什么约会应用程序很糟糕？
There’s gender imbalance if it’s New York City, or people just want something other than a long-term relationship.
如果在纽约市，或者人们只想要长期关系以外的东西，就会存在性别失衡。
You don’t have an implicit mental model of what’s going wrong?
你对于问题所在没有一个隐含的心理模型吗？
My gut tells me, with no evidence, that people aren’t genuine, aren’t real on dating apps.
我的直觉告诉我，在没有证据的情况下，人们并不真诚，在约会应用程序上也不真实。
The only basis for this thought is, about 25 years ago, before Craigslist had dating sections, I met several women who told me they used the roommate ads for dating because, in a roommate ad, a guy would be relatively honest.
这种想法的唯一依据是，大约 25 年前，在 Craigslist 还没有约会版块之前，我遇到了几位女性，她们告诉我她们使用室友广告进行约会，因为在室友广告中，男人会相对诚实。
Not married, one hoped.
没有结婚，有人希望。
Actually, I didn’t think of that, yes.
事实上，我没想到这一点，是的。
That’s very good.
那很好。
I’ll have to steal that for the repertoire.
我得把它偷来作为剧目。
This is serious.
这很严重。
That’s what women told me way back in the past.
这就是很久以前的女人告诉我的。
This had to be, man, right around probably late ’90s.
这一定是 90 年代末左右的事了。
I really am old.
我真的老了。
It seems to me Craigslist is especially strong in job ads, services, and automobiles.
在我看来，Craigslist 在招聘广告、服务和汽车领域尤其强大。
Do you have any sense why those areas, or maybe you think it’s something different?
您是否知道为什么会出现这些区域，或者您认为这是不同的？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
The deal with Craigslist in general is that it’s for real.
总的来说，与 Craigslist 的交易是真实的。
People are really putting stuff up there.
人们真的把东西放在那里。
You generally know what you’re getting.
您通常知道自己会得到什么。
You have no illusions about, “Oh, what’s going on?” At some point in the past, other sites where you build up a profile, they look like you’re actually dealing with a real person.
你不会抱有任何幻想，“哦，发生了什么事？”在过去的某个时刻，在您建立个人资料的其他网站上，它们看起来就像您实际上是在与真人打交道。
Maybe that was true for a while, but now, it’s very easy to use generative AI to build up a profile which looks real, but it’s fake.
也许在一段时间内确实如此，但现在，使用生成式人工智能很容易建立一个看起来真实但实际上是假的个人资料。
If you’re going to buy something from that person, having some confidence that they’re real, you may have a problem.
如果你打算从那个人那里买东西，并且确信它们是真的，那么你可能会遇到问题。
That’s the kind I think of a great deal these days, and how do we warn people adequately about it?
这就是我最近经常思考的问题，我们如何充分警告人们这一点？
We really do need to launch a much bigger public service campaign about problems with scamming, problems with cybersecurity, and what regular people can do to prevent them.
我们确实需要发起一场更大规模的公共服务活动，涉及诈骗问题、网络安全问题以及普通人可以采取哪些措施来预防这些问题。
Even before generative AI, you didn’t have seller evaluations the way eBay and Uber have.
即使在生成式人工智能出现之前，你也无法像 eBay 和 Uber 那样进行卖家评估。
Uber, this driver is a 4.98.
Uber，这位司机的评分是 4.98。
You assume it must be okay.
你认为它一定没问题。
Craigslist didn’t do that.
Craigslist 没有这样做。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
I can’t speak for Jim because, at that point, I had given all management to Jim, but even before him, I vaguely speculated on things like user reviews of any sort, like Yelp style.
我不能代表吉姆说话，因为那时我已经把所有管理权交给了吉姆，但即使在他之前，我也模糊地推测过诸如任何类型的用户评论之类的事情，比如 Yelp 风格。
I was thinking, it will be really easy to game that kind of thing.
我在想，玩这种游戏真的很容易。
Frankly, even then, I was reading science fiction, which looked into the future about how online media and the internet would be gamed.
坦率地说，即使在那时，我也在读科幻小说，这些小说探讨了在线媒体和互联网将如何博弈的未来。
I’m even thinking back to 1984 William Gibson Neuromancer, which affected me and a lot of people in the field, and I’m hoping will be a really good Apple TV show.
我什至回想起 1984 年的《威廉·吉布森神经漫游者》，它影响了我和该领域的很多人，我希望这会是一个非常好的 Apple TV 节目。
Yes, I’d like it to be better than Slow Horses.
是的，我希望它比《慢马》更好。
Jackson Lamb is now one of my role models.
杰克逊·兰姆现在是我的榜样之一。
I can tell you later why.
稍后我可以告诉你原因。
Not for his hygiene.
不是为了他的卫生。
I’ve lost track of the question because I want to say why Jackson Lamb is now my role model, which you can feel free to prompt me when you’re in the mood.
我忘记了这个问题，因为我想说为什么杰克逊·兰姆现在是我的榜样，当你有心情时可以随时提示我。
Seller evaluations, right?
卖家评价对吧？
You’ve never involved them.
你从来没有让他们参与过。
Podcasts get evaluated on Apple, right?
播客会在 Apple 上进行评估，对吧？
This gets so many stars.
这得到了很多星星。
It’s just too easy to game those systems now.
现在利用这些系统太容易了。
What I’m hoping for are user authentication systems, not state- or government-instituted ones exclusively, because I worry about governments.
我希望的是用户身份验证系统，而不是专门由国家或政府制定的系统，因为我担心政府。
A lot in life is based on who you trust, and you want to be able to know who you’re talking to.
生活中的很多事情都取决于您信任的人，并且您希望能够知道您在与谁交谈。
I don’t want to turn over a lot of this to the government because of some of my political biases.
由于我的一些政治偏见，我不想将其中大部分交给政府。
I’m looking for balance.
我正在寻找平衡。
If you can identify yourself to other parties in a way that shows you are who you claim you are, that can be good.
如果您能够以某种方式向其他方表明您的身份，表明您就是您所声称的身份，那就太好了。
The credit card companies working together may have a solution.
信用卡公司合作可能会找到解决方案。
Driver’s licenses may be, in part, a solution.
驾驶执照可能是部分解决方案。
Ninety percent of Americans have phones with digital wallets.
百分之九十的美国人拥有带数字钱包的手机。
Maybe there’s something there, but I need to run this by the Electronic Frontier Foundation, because they think of things that I will not think of, and they may tell me why my idea is terrible.
也许那里有什么东西，但我需要由电子前沿基金会来运行这个，因为他们想到了我不会想到的事情，他们可能会告诉我为什么我的想法很糟糕。
On restaurants
关于餐厅
What do you think of the simple model that institutions get gamed and they deteriorate over time?
您如何看待机构受到欺骗并随着时间的推移而恶化的简单模型？
If there’s a new restaurant in New York City, it will be great for the first six to nine months.
如果纽约市有一家新餐厅，前六到九个月的业绩会很好。
Then, too many people want to come.
那么，想要来的人就太多了。
The people who come after that are less informed.
后来的人消息较少。
They slack on quality.
他们在质量上有所懈怠。
There’s always a line out the door.
门外总是排着长队。
Everything becomes a bit worse, and the way to live life is to find the peaks of things in early times and then move on.
一切都会变得更糟，而生活的方式就是在早期找到事物的顶峰，然后继续前进。
Correct or not?
正确与否？
That sounds like too much work for me.
这听起来对我来说工作量太大了。
I might accidentally go to a hip-hoppening places, happening places, which is not my thing.
我可能会不小心去一些嘻哈的地方，热闹的地方，这不是我的事。
I just look for the mundane, the ordinary.
我只是寻找平凡的、普通的。
Say you’re choosing a restaurant.
假设您正在选择一家餐厅。
What’s your algorithm?
你的算法是什么？
My algorithm is, well, does it look like a hole in the wall?
我的算法是，它看起来像墙上的洞吗？
That’s a good thing.
这是一件好事。
Actually, quite seriously, my deal, in the last year or two, I’ve realized that I have the tastes and attitudes of a peasant.
事实上，说实话，我的交易，在过去的一两年里，我已经意识到我有农民的品味和态度。
I’m a peasant with money.
我是一个有钱的农民。
Nevertheless, if somebody wants to take me to fine dining, if they’re treating, I’ll try it.
不过，如果有人想带我去高级餐厅，如果他们正在请客，我会尝试一下。
Otherwise, I’ll not look for an expensive place.
不然我也不会去找贵的地方。
Yesterday, I had a slice.
昨天，我吃了一片。
It was actually two small slices.
它实际上是两小片。
That was $10.
那是 10 美元。
Two slices, $10 at the place.
两片，现场10美元。
They liked me.
他们喜欢我。
That was lunch.
那是午餐。
I like restaurants where there are non-US citizens screaming at each other, and none of them look happy.
我喜欢那些非美国公民互相尖叫的餐馆，而且他们看起来都不高兴。
Then I feel the food will be good.
然后我觉得食物会很好吃。
That sounds like a comedian speaking.
这听起来就像一个喜剧演员在说话。
I like that, except for the yelling part.
我喜欢这个，除了大喊大叫的部分。
On music
关于音乐
What’s your favorite Tori Amos song?
你最喜欢托里·阿莫斯的哪首歌？
Oh, I used to have a much better idea of what that would be, but I’ve forgotten.
哦，我曾经对那是什么有更好的想法，但我忘了。
These days, I focus mostly on my rabbi, Leonard Cohen.
这些天，我主要关注我的拉比伦纳德·科恩。
I dive more into You Want It Darker.
我更深入地研究“你想要更黑”。
I’ve also become a Swiftie, but since I haven’t listened to her last album enough, I have to reserve judgment.
我也成为了一名 Swiftie，但由于我还没有听够她的上一张专辑，所以我必须保留判断力。
I like Silent All These Years by Tori Amos, especially the live version.
我喜欢 Tori Amos 的《Silent AllThese Years》，尤其是现场版。
That’s very good, and I think I did hear it live when I spent a year in Pittsburgh in 1992.
这非常好，我想 1992 年我在匹兹堡呆了一年时确实现场听到了它。
For you, what makes Leonard Cohen deeper or more interesting than Bob Dylan?
对你来说，是什么让伦纳德·科恩比鲍勃·迪伦更深或更有趣？
It’s hard to say, but the bottom line, gut level is that, with Leonard’s help, I feel God speaking to me.
这很难说，但最重要的是，在伦纳德的帮助下，我感觉到上帝在对我说话。
But not from Dylan.
但不是迪伦的。
I’ve listened to him more, and one problem is sometimes, with my hearing issues, it’s hard for me to make out his words.
我听他说话的次数多了，但有一个问题是，有时，由于我的听力问题，我很难听清他的话。
For whatever reason, Leonard just speaks to me more.
不管出于什么原因，伦纳德只是和我说话更多。
That’s a very individual, idiosyncratic thing, so I don’t know.
这是一个非常个人化、特殊的事情，所以我不知道。
I should say Taylor Swift does not make me feel like God has me on speed dial.
我应该说泰勒·斯威夫特并没有让我觉得上帝让我进入快速拨号。
I do like her stuff, and I do live near Cornelia Street.
我确实喜欢她的东西，而且我确实住在科妮莉亚街附近。
On science fiction
论科幻小说
What, in science fiction, has influenced you and how?
科幻小说中的什么因素影响了您以及如何影响您？
There’s the William Gibson stuff.
有威廉·吉布森的东西。
I remember reading in 1984 his seminal work, Neuromancer, which he wrote knowing nothing about computers, and yet it’s influenced a great deal of how the internet has evolved.
我记得 1984 年读过他的开创性著作《神经漫游者》，他在对计算机一无所知的情况下写下这本书，但它对互联网的发展产生了很大的影响。
Right now, I’m going through a lot of the stuff by K.
现在，我正在阅读 K 的很多东西。
J.
J。
Parker, whose novels are about a different Earth with a different history that parallels ours.
帕克的小说讲述的是一个不同的地球，有着与我们相似的不同历史。
His novels, a lot of them are about our characters who are faking their way into positions of responsibility, who turn out to be really good at those jobs under pressure.
他的小说很多都是关于我们的角色，他们假装自己担任要职，结果证明他们在压力下非常擅长这些工作。
They’re confidence porn, much like The Pitt is.
它们是自信色情片，就像皮特一样。
On TV shows
在电视节目中
Why was Seinfeld so popular?
为什么《宋飞正传》如此受欢迎？
I long have found it puzzling that people who don’t really know New York might even like the show.
我长期以来一直感到困惑的是，那些不太了解纽约的人可能会喜欢这个节目。
Sometimes they like it without understanding that some of the characters are in New York or perhaps might be Jewish.
有时他们喜欢它，但不明白其中一些角色是在纽约或者可能是犹太人。
That always struck me as bizarre.
这一直让我觉得很奇怪。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I just felt that those characters were, in some respects, versions of me despite their exaggerated bad tendencies.
我只是觉得这些角色在某些方面是我的版本，尽管他们夸大了不良倾向。
Maybe that’s it.
也许就是这样。
George Costanza, Jason Alexander, I’ve always felt is one especially attractive man—short, balding, kind of chubby, Jewish.
乔治·科斯坦萨（George Costanza）、杰森·亚历山大（Jason Alexander），我一直觉得他们是一位特别有魅力的男人——个子矮小，秃顶，有点胖，是犹太人。
I do see a lot of the Larry David coming through there.
我确实看到很多拉里·大卫都经过那里。
We see more Larry David on Curb, and I do like that a lot, even when I’m cringing.
我们在路边看到更多的拉里·大卫，我确实很喜欢这样，即使我感到畏缩。
I think Curb Your Enthusiasm is funnier than Seinfeld.
我认为《抑制你的热情》比《宋飞正传》更有趣。
It’s more willing to be dark.
它更愿意黑暗。
Jerry is a character.
杰瑞是一个角色。
I think he’s a good straight man in the old Abbott and Costello sense, but I don’t find him funny, in fact.
我认为他是老艾伯特和科斯特洛意义上的一个好直男，但事实上我并不觉得他有趣。
It’s mixed.
这是混合的。
I don’t think about the funny part.
我不考虑有趣的部分。
I just try to enjoy it.
我只是尝试享受它。
If you try too hard to understand something—it’s like explaining a joke—doesn’t make it funnier.
如果你太努力地去理解某件事——就像解释一个笑话一样——并不会让它变得更有趣。
I just enjoy the thing.
我只是享受这件事。
It only took me a long time to enjoy Monty Python.
我只花了很长时间就喜欢上了 Monty Python。
Even on the way here, I saw, I think, a vertical format video from, I think, it’s Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
即使在来这里的路上，我也看到了一个垂直格式的视频，我认为是《巨蟒剧团和圣杯》。
A peasant woman was explaining to King Arthur that just because some “tart” threw him a sword, that didn’t make King Arthur divinely appointed.
一位农妇向亚瑟王解释说，仅仅因为某个“馅饼”向他扔了一把剑，并不意味着亚瑟王就被神任命了。
That was, in retrospect, really funny, not necessarily topical.
回想起来，这确实很有趣，但不一定是热门话题。
Often, the best parts of Monty Python I’ve never understood.
我常常无法理解巨蟒剧团最好的部分。
You hear Tony Jacklin golf clubs.
你听到托尼·杰克林高尔夫球杆。
I’m like an 11-year-old.
我就像一个11岁的孩子。
I have no idea, and it’s funny.
我不知道，这很有趣。
There’s a lot of things I don’t get ever, some things I get years after.
有很多东西我从来没有得到过，有些东西我几年后才得到。
That’s, I guess, comedy.
我想，这就是喜剧。
I wish I was as good at it as Jackson Lamb, who’s one of my role models now, because of something he said in the latest book.
我希望我能像杰克逊·兰姆（Jackson Lamb）一样擅长，他现在是我的榜样之一，因为他在最新书中说了一些话。
Which is?
哪个是？
He said that small talk is just bullshit leaving the body.
他说闲聊只是离开身体的废话。
Speaking as someone with very limited social skills, that’s a way of life for me.
作为一个社交能力非常有限的人，这对我来说是一种生活方式。
I don’t quite have the personal hygiene issues he has, although as I get older, I use aging as an excuse for issues.
我不太像他那样有个人卫生问题，尽管随着年龄的增长，我会用衰老作为问题的借口。
I want to push back on this to you, that you don’t have social skills.
我想反驳你，你没有社交技能。
People came to see you.
人们来看你。
They’re laughing.
他们在笑。
You started a company.
你创办了一家公司。
You got other talented people to work there.
你还有其他有才华的人在那里工作。
You were meta-rational.
你是元理性的。
You knew when to give up control on which issues, but to spend a lot of time doing customer service and respond to all those emails.
您知道何时放弃对哪些问题的控制，而是花费大量时间进行客户服务并回复所有这些电子邮件。
You visited realtors who broke the rules of Craigslist.
您拜访了违反 Craigslist 规则的房地产经纪人。
You seem to have extraordinary social skills, albeit unusual ones.
你似乎拥有非凡的社交技巧，尽管有些不寻常。
That’s a kind way of saying it, and I think I can accept it.
这是一种很好的说法，我想我可以接受。
Let’s say in my naiveté—well, sometimes naiveté, and being honest about it, is a kind of social skill.
就我的天真而言——好吧，有时天真，诚实地说，是一种社交技巧。
Maybe I’ll accept that.
也许我会接受这一点。
I guess a lot of social awkwardness is a part of my branding.
我想很多社交尴尬是我品牌的一部分。
I do know that I lack the kind of social skills that you need to be comfortable in Washington, and that’s why I have layers of insulation whenever I go there through consultants, through some of the think tanks I support.
我确实知道我缺乏在华盛顿感到舒适所需的社交技能，这就是为什么每当我通过顾问、通过我支持的一些智囊团去那里时，我都会受到层层隔离。
I’m thinking of one who I recently gave a substantial grant to, who’s doing good work, particularly in protecting US infrastructure, starting, for the most part, with water supplies and sanitation, and going to hospitals.
我想到的是我最近向他提供了大量资助的一位人，他做得很好，特别是在保护美国基础设施方面，大部分是从供水和卫生设施以及去医院开始的。
They are working with people like the Water Information Security Action Center.
他们正在与水信息安全行动中心等机构合作。
They can talk to people in ways that I can’t relate.
他们可以用我无法理解的方式与人交谈。
Kathy Roth-Douquet from Blue Star Families is really good at Congress and news people, and she’s much better than I ever could.
蓝星家族的凯西·罗斯-杜凯 (Kathy Roth-Douquet) 非常擅长国会和新闻界人士，她比我强多了。
She’s much better at it, and so I’m happy that she just does it.
她在这方面做得更好，所以我很高兴她做到了。
Sometimes she will trot me out as useful.
有时她会夸赞我有用。
I’ll be doing that again in a few weeks at Bloomberg News for Vets and Tech.
几周后，我将在彭博新闻社为兽医和科技人员再次这样做。
They train vets in technology jobs, particularly cybersecurity.
他们培训技术岗位的退伍军人，特别是网络安全人员。
When you visited those realtors who broke the Craigslist rules, were you nice to them?
当您拜访那些违反 Craigslist 规则的房地产经纪人时，您对他们友善吗？
Always, because this is like 20, 25 years ago.
总是这样，因为这已经是 20、25 年前的事了。
That’s the best social skill.
这是最好的社交技巧。
I just would wander in.
我只是闲逛进去。
I would introduce myself.
我会介绍我自己。
They would panic.
他们会惊慌失措。
Then there would be introductions and photography.
然后就是介绍和拍照。
I wasn’t out there to bust their chops.
我不是来破坏他们的。
I just figured I needed to learn more about what was going on.
我只是觉得我需要更多地了解正在发生的事情。
While those ads were free, at one point, they started posting the same ads over and over and over again, so that those sections were just unusable.
虽然这些广告是免费的，但在某一时刻，他们开始一遍又一遍地发布相同的广告，因此这些部分根本无法使用。
I spoke to a lot of new apartment brokers, and they said that they didn’t want to have to post the same ads over and over again, and that if we charged a few dollars for those ads, that would solve the problem.
我和很多新的公寓经纪人交谈过，他们说他们不想一遍又一遍地发布相同的广告，如果我们对这些广告收取几美元，那就可以解决问题。
To charge them $10 or $20 for them is nothing, but it would be a rate limiter, and we settled on $10 because I realized that a new apartment broker would be making maybe $20,000 a year in New York, and if you’re doing that, you have to have one or two other jobs to get through the day.
向他们收取 10 美元或 20 美元没什么，但这会是一个费率限制，我们最终定为 10 美元，因为我意识到在纽约，新的公寓经纪人每年可能赚 20,000 美元，如果你这样做，你就必须做一两份其他工作才能度过这一天。
On philanthropy
论慈善事业
Is it still true that Craig Newmark Philanthropies has no formal employees?
克雷格·纽马克慈善基金会仍然没有正式员工吗？
That’s correct.
这是正确的。
I’m a contractor, and we have others.
我是承包商，我们还有其他承包商。
Even you are not an employee?
连你都不是员工？
Yes.
是的。
That’s the way Mabel arranges it.
梅布尔就是这么安排的。
Mabel is my bookkeeper and financial person.
梅布尔是我的簿记员和财务人员。
She is very scary.
她很可怕。
I’ll see her next week.
下周我会见到她。
I think I’ll tell her I said that.
我想我会告诉她我这么说过。
She’s also the bookkeeper and so on for Craigslist because she’s very committed, and she’s learned a lot on her own.
她还是 Craigslist 的簿记员等等，因为她非常投入，而且她自己学到了很多东西。
She has a lot more practical legal knowledge than the lawyers, and she’s a refugee from Myanmar, which is pretty impressive.
她的实际法律知识比律师多很多，而且她是来自缅甸的难民，这令人印象深刻。
She’s taught herself a lot of this stuff, and I don’t know what I’d do without her, but she does frighten me.
她自学了很多这样的东西，我不知道没有她我会做什么，但她确实让我害怕。
As you know, many other foundations have large staffs and multiple layers of decision-making.
如您所知，许多其他基金会拥有大量员工和多层决策。
What are they getting wrong?
他们做错了什么？
I don’t really know, and I’m trying to judge less.
我真的不知道，我正在努力少评判。
You have some theory of why you didn’t do that, right?
你有一些关于为什么不这样做的理论，对吗？
Tangentially, I’ll say, I’m trying to judge less and less.
顺便说一句，我正试图越来越少地做出判断。
I’ve been so wrong and unfair at times.
我有时犯了很大的错误和不公平。
What I find problematic is that when they have layers of management and too much spread-out responsibility, there may not be enough accountability, multiple levels of sign-offs slow things down.
我发现问题在于，当他们有多层管理和太多分散的责任时，可能没有足够的责任，多层的签字会减慢事情的进展。
They operate very responsibly with annual budgeting and so on, and they do so in a way often that’s too rigid.
他们在年度预算等方面非常负责任地运作，但他们这样做的方式往往过于严格。
Plus, when they reach a certain size, like 150, I think it’s Dunbar number, then one part of the nonprofit doesn’t know what the other part is doing.
另外，当它们达到一定规模时，比如 150，我认为这是邓巴数，然后非营利组织的一部分不知道另一部分在做什么。
Me, I have the advantage of ignorance, not knowing what I’m doing, having limited objectives, but getting a lot of help.
我，我的优势是无知，不知道自己在做什么，目标有限，但得到了很多帮助。
I rely on the kindness of strangers.
我依赖陌生人的善意。
I’ve made mistakes, but not too bad.
我犯过错误，但还不算太糟糕。
I’ve never made a really big mistake.
我从来没有犯过真正的大错误。
It’s just sometimes the money hasn’t been used effectively.
只是有时钱没有得到有效利用。
I’m afraid I’ve lost my confidence in Ivy League schools.
我恐怕已经对常春藤盟校失去了信心。
How did that happen?
这是怎么发生的？
Two substantial contributions to Ivies were fairly ineffective, and I should have made those contributions, instead of big checks, I should’ve made them big checks, but given out multiyear based on milestones.
对常春藤盟校的两项实质性捐款相当无效，我应该做出这些捐款，而不是大额支票，我应该给他们大额支票，但根据里程碑给予多年。
That’s a lesson, a little painful, but the money wasn’t wasted.
这是一个教训，有点痛苦，但钱并没有浪费。
It just wasn’t used as well as I’d like.
它只是没有像我想要的那样使用。
The main initiatives, such as supporting veterans, those are your idea, right?
主要的举措，比如支持退伍军人，这些都是你的想法，对吗？
That is an idea I came up with in response to maybe 15 years ago, I was at a luncheon at Colonial Williamsburg put on by PBS News Hour.
这是我大概 15 年前在殖民地威廉斯堡参加由 PBS News Hour 举办的午餐会时想到的一个想法。
I sat next to a guy from Iraq and Afghanistan, Vets of America.
我旁边坐着一个来自伊拉克和阿富汗的美国退伍军人。
They explained to me what the situation of vets was in America.
他们向我解释了美国退伍军人的情况。
They were not treated very well.
他们没有受到很好的待遇。
Veterans Affairs needed work.
退伍军人事务部需要工作。
I figured this is something I can understand.
我想这是我能理解的事情。
Having grown up in the capital of the revolution, Morristown, New Jersey, and growing up during the Vietnam War, when returning soldiers were treated badly, I had some idea of the need to help out.
我在革命之都新泽西州莫里斯敦长大，并在越南战争期间长大，当回国的士兵受到虐待时，我知道需要提供帮助。
Several years ago, the need to help out military families, active service, sank in when I was doing a photo op at God’s Love We Deliver.
几年前，当我在“上帝的爱我们传递”拍摄照片时，我意识到了帮助军人家庭和现役军人的需要。
I didn’t know I would be packaging food.
我不知道我会包装食物。
That’s been the first and only time I’ve had to wear a hairnet.
这是我第一次也是唯一一次不得不戴发网。
They told me I didn’t need to wear one, but I thought it was funnier to wear one.
他们告诉我不需要戴，但我觉得戴更有趣。
Talking to Kathy from Blue Star, I understood that active service military families get moved around a lot every year.
通过与蓝星的凯西交谈，我了解到现役军人家庭每年都会搬家。
When you’re moved around, you lose all your connection to community.
当你搬家时，你就会失去与社区的所有联系。
You don’t know where good childcare is.
你不知道哪里有好的托儿所。
You don’t know the schools or places to buy food.
您不知道学校或购买食物的地方。
Given the current payment model for families, you may not have enough money to feed your family.
鉴于当前的家庭支付模式，您可能没有足够的钱来养活家人。
That’s one reason why we sponsored a food pantry at Fort Wadsworth in Staten Island.
这就是我们在史坦顿岛沃兹沃思堡赞助食品储藏室的原因之一。
I was there for the inauguration, which was the only time I’ve ever been in Staten Island.
我参加了就职典礼，这是我唯一一次来到史泰登岛。
My image of it was based on that story arc in Sex and the City.
我对它的想象是基于《欲望都市》中的故事情节。
I didn’t like the sequel very much, by the way, but I still watched it.
顺便说一句，我不太喜欢续集，但我还是看了。
On journalism
论新闻业
Have you become somewhat disillusioned with journalism, the way you’ve become disillusioned with the Ivy League?
你是否对新闻业感到有些失望，就像你对常春藤盟校感到失望一样？
Let’s say that I’ve gotten a lot of training in journalism ethics.
假设我接受了很多新闻道德方面的培训。
The hard way.
艰难的方式。
Let’s say a mix of ways, because I’ve met people who do it great and I’ve met people who say they do it great and don’t, and some people don’t even try.
让我们说多种方式，因为我遇到过做得很好的人，也遇到过说自己做得很好但实际上做得不好的人，有些人甚至没有尝试过。
Let’s say that, in some cases, I’m not trying anymore in most respects because it’s just too frustrating.
假设，在某些情况下，我在大多数方面都不再尝试，因为这太令人沮丧了。
I do have a lot of confidence in the CUNY Journalism School, and that’s the one other people put my name on, and I like it a lot because CUNY, the whole school, has been about opportunities for New Yorkers who are growing up with no opportunities.
我确实对纽约市立大学新闻学院充满信心，这也是其他人把我的名字写在上面的，我很喜欢它，因为纽约市立大学，整个学校，一直为那些在没有机会的情况下成长的纽约人提供机会。
They’re growing up with little or no money.
他们在成长过程中几乎没有钱，甚至没有钱。
The graduates are being trained in trustworthy journalism.
毕业生正在接受值得信赖的新闻培训。
They’re actually getting journalism jobs that pay okay, and they’re graduating with little or no student debt.
他们实际上得到了报酬不错的新闻工作，而且毕业时几乎没有或没有学生债务。
The other journalism thing I support is Wikipedia because they’re learning over time, and with a lot of pain sometimes, how to get it right, knowing that sometimes articles will get things wrong, but they get corrected.
我支持的另一个新闻业是维基百科，因为他们随着时间的推移，有时会经历很多痛苦，不断学习如何把事情做好，知道有时文章会出错，但他们会得到纠正。
They’re still learning, but I realize that when they have an article up there, it will get corrected over time.
他们仍在学习，但我意识到，当他们发表文章时，它会随着时间的推移而得到纠正。
When something is in the New York Times, they make a good-faith effort to get things right, but they still get things wrong now and then, and they generally don’t fix them.
当《纽约时报》刊登某些内容时，他们会真诚地努力把事情做好，但他们仍然时不时地出错，而且通常不会修复它们。
On pigeons
关于鸽子
Why rescue pigeons?
为什么要救鸽子？
I love birds, and I admire pigeons, and I guess I need a pet.
我喜欢鸟类，也欣赏鸽子，我想我需要一只宠物。
I need a comfort animal, and hatbird or other hatbird aren’t enough, but I’ll hang out in front of the coffee shop, and then they’ll see me wave around my bag of bird seed, the good stuff, and then they’ll come and they’ll rest on my arm or this arm, and then they’ll eat right from there, and that makes me happy.
我需要一只舒适的动物，帽鸟或其他帽鸟还不够，但我会在咖啡店门口闲逛，然后他们会看到我在我的鸟种子袋上挥手，这是好东西，然后他们会过来，靠在我的手臂或这只手臂上，然后他们会从那里开始吃东西，这让我很高兴。
The people walking by will look at me, and some find it entertaining, and I really should get a dog.
路过的人都会看着我，有些人觉得很有趣，我真的应该养一只狗。
I travel a bit much, but if I got a nice portable lap dog, maybe a doxie, or I’ve now read about Dachshund-Corgi hybrids called Dorgies, which sound like my speed, and I could call mine a dorky, and we would be happy.
我经常旅行，但如果我有一只漂亮的便携式哈巴狗，也许是一只 doxie，或者我现在读到了有关腊肠犬和柯基犬杂交品种的文章，称为 Dorgies，这听起来像我的速度，我可以称我的为 dorky，我们会很高兴。
On entrepreneurship
论创业
One big question I have about your career.
我有一个关于你职业生涯的大问题。
You worked, I think, 17 years at IBM, which we all think of as the establishment in some way.
我认为您在 IBM 工作了 17 年，我们都认为 IBM 在某种程度上是一个机构。
This is a while back, of course.
当然，这是不久前的事了。
Then you become a highly successful entrepreneur.
然后你就会成为一名非常成功的企业家。
What is it that changed in you or snapped or something gave you more ambition, or it was all just accident?
是什么让你发生了改变，或者什么让你崩溃了，或者是什么给了你更多的野心，或者这一切都只是偶然？
Seventeen years is a long time.
十七年是一段很长的时间。
How is it you’re such a late bloomer?
你怎么这么晚熟？
What’s your account of that?
你对此有何看法？
It’s a combination of an accident and realizing that things were not right.
这是一次意外和意识到事情不对劲的结合。
I realized around age 40 that I really had problems with socialization.
40岁左右我意识到我在社交方面确实存在问题。
You weren’t funny back then?
你当时不搞笑吗？
Not at all.
一点也不。
I got Charles Schwab to move me out to San Francisco.
我让嘉信理财把我搬到旧金山。
I started using the internet.
我开始使用互联网。
A lot of people like me helped me settle in.
很多像我一样的人帮助我安顿下来。
I saw a lot of people who were my people and learned that I had to meet people halfway or more.
我见到了很多我的人，并了解到我必须与人交往，甚至更多。
I started realizing, for example, that a lot of my behavior, particularly in the IBM field, frequently I was a jerk, by which I mean asshole, and that I needed to listen to people more and to be somewhat empathetic.
例如，我开始意识到，我的很多行为，尤其是在 IBM 领域，常常是个混蛋，我的意思是混蛋，我需要更多地倾听人们的意见，并具有一定的同理心。
It was needed for me to change.
我需要改变。
Doing customer service, when I reached San Francisco and started doing Craigslist, doing that kind of customer service where you’re directly interacting with people on a grassroots level, that can change a guy for the better.
做客户服务，当我到达旧金山并开始做 Craigslist 时，做那种直接与基层人员互动的客户服务，可以让一个人变得更好。
That worked out for me.
这对我来说很有效。
What did you learn about yourself doing that?
从你自己的做法中你学到了什么？
I learned that I didn’t have to be a jerk.
我了解到我不必成为一个混蛋。
I just had to think, “Am I being a good person for the other person?” Sometimes when you’re stressed or impatient or the person just isn’t listening, you strain it.
我只需要思考：“我对别人来说是一个好人吗？”有时，当你感到压力或不耐烦，或者对方不听时，你就会紧张。
When you’re talking to someone else’s customer service, and you tell them something, explain it, and then later on they ask you to tell them the same thing, that will tax my patience.
当你与别人的客户服务交谈时，你告诉他们一些事情，解释一下，然后他们要求你告诉他们同样的事情，这会考验我的耐心。
Or I will ask some questions, and then they answer half of them, and then I have to repeat that; that will irritate me a little, and yet I have to realize that they’re just another person struggling to get through the day, and I should be the nice Craig.
或者我会问一些问题，然后他们回答一半，然后我就得重复一遍；这会让我有点恼火，但我必须意识到他们只是另一个努力度过这一天的人，而我应该是友善的克雷格。
On Craig’s personal philosophy
论克雷格的个人哲学
Do you think the personal philosophy you’ve brought to philanthropy is simply copying the philosophy you had at Craigslist or still have, or it’s somehow a transformation or evolution of it?
您是否认为您为慈善事业带来的个人理念只是简单地复制您在 Craigslist 所拥有的或仍然拥有的理念，或者是它的某种转变或演变？
On a gut level, it’s the same as Craigslist because, again, Craigslist is just about helping people get through the day, and as a byproduct, showing people that the internet can be useful and relatively easy to use.
从本质上讲，它与 Craigslist 相同，因为 Craigslist 再次强调，它只是帮助人们度过这一天，并且作为副产品，向人们展示互联网可以很有用并且相对容易使用。
In terms of the philanthropy there that I’ve done, I look for the mundane, for the down-to-earth stuff that people need that may not be addressed well enough.
就我所做的慈善事业而言，我寻找的是世俗的、人们需要但可能没有得到充分解决的务实的东西。
For example, vets and active service military are treated better after 9/11 than they were before.
例如，退伍军人和现役军人在 9/11 事件后受到的待遇比以前更好。
The VA has gotten its act better together somewhat.
退伍军人管理局的行动在某种程度上已经变得更好了。
Still, vets and families need to be treated better.
尽管如此，兽医和家人仍需要得到更好的对待。
Meanwhile, someone needs to take a stand against scams on an ongoing basis forever, to make suggestions for regular people as to what they could do.
与此同时，需要有人持续地反对诈骗，为普通人提供建议，告诉他们可以做什么。
A lot of what we all can do also prevents cybersecurity incidents, like where you work.
我们所有人都能做的很多事情也可以防止网络安全事件，比如你工作的地方。
Everyone is responsible for keeping it safe because if a bad actor, say, stereotypically in North Korea, manages to crack your company’s system, if they manage to install ransomware, grabbing your mission-critical data and encrypting it, scrambling it, that can bring your whole thing down.
每个人都有责任保证数据的安全，因为如果一个不良行为者（例如朝鲜的典型做法）成功破解了您公司的系统，如果他们设法安装勒索软件，窃取您的关键任务数据并对其进行加密、扰乱，那么您的整个系统就会瘫痪。
That’s like in recent episodes of The Pitt, where another hospital was brought down by ransomware, and they prematurely brought down all their own computer systems.
就像最近几集中的《皮特》一样，另一家医院被勒索软件瘫痪，他们过早地瘫痪了自己的所有计算机系统。
This is a big, serious national security issue, which I’m working with on the civilian side.
这是一个重大、严重的国家安全问题，我正在民事方面处理这个问题。
You’ll hear people like me talk about resilience.
你会听到像我这样的人谈论韧性。
I’ve funded something called the Cyber Resilience Corps, which is volunteers.
我资助了一个名为“网络弹性军团”的组织，该组织由志愿者组成。
Again, starting by helping small water suppliers get their act together because very few of them have the staffing to protect their systems.
同样，首先要帮助小型水供应商齐心协力，因为他们中很少有人拥有保护其系统的人员。
The new breed of AI systems are going to be really good at bringing down, stopping water supplies in a lot of our country, which is something that the Chinese military are actively working on already.
新型人工智能系统将非常擅长切断、停止我国许多地区的供水，这是中国军方已经在积极开展的工作。
On major regrets
关于重大遗憾
Do you have any major regrets from your Craigslist efforts?
您对 Craigslist 的努力有什么重大遗憾吗？
Well, I really needed to learn that lesson I mentioned earlier about knowing that, as a ninth commandment kind of guy, I will never be a match for someone who’s lying about things.
好吧，我真的需要吸取我之前提到的教训，知道作为第九条诫命的人，我永远不会是那些撒谎的人的对手。
For various reasons, in some arrogance, thought I could constructively confront a person like that.
由于各种原因，出于某种傲慢，我认为我可以建设性地面对这样的人。
I don’t have the skills, and even more so, they were trying to get me to spill the beans on ongoing criminal investigations.
我没有这个技能，更重要的是，他们试图让我泄露正在进行的刑事调查的秘密。
The cops had told me, because I was helping support a whole bunch of investigations across the country, led by the FBI.
警察告诉了我，因为我正在帮助支持联邦调查局领导的全国范围内的一系列调查。
They told me, “Don’t spill the beans.
他们告诉我：“别泄露秘密。
Don’t talk about actually anything going on.” They were right.
不要谈论实际发生的任何事情。”他们是对的。
After the whole thing was over, I could have spoken about that, but I was still being paranoid because I’m such a rule follower.
整个事情结束后，我本可以谈论这件事，但我仍然偏执，因为我是一个规则遵循者。
That provided an opportunity for bad people to run their own kind of scams.
这为坏人实施他们自己的骗局提供了机会。
It’s all very painful, and I’m still under doctor’s care.
这一切都非常痛苦，而且我仍在接受医生的护理。
That’s the big mistake I made.
这是我犯的一个大错误。
Acting in some arrogance, not listening to people who said, “Okay, now,” and then getting professional help in terms of being a much less bad communicator.
表现得有些傲慢，不听别人说“好吧，现在”，然后寻求专业帮助，成为一个不那么糟糕的沟通者。
The downside of this is that if you’re applying for a grant from me, I will be really annoying about how well you’re doing in communications.
这样做的缺点是，如果你向我申请资助，我会对你在沟通方面的表现感到非常恼火。
I’ll be very annoying.
我会很烦人。
Audience Q&A
观众问答
This brings us to our audience questions.
这给我们带来了观众的问题。
The first one is, how helpful is the FBI, and how can we scale law enforcement?
第一个是，联邦调查局有多大帮助，我们如何扩大执法规模？
The FBI, when it comes to these areas that I’m talking about, fighting scams and so on, is actually pretty good about it.
当谈到我所说的打击诈骗等领域时，联邦调查局实际上做得很好。
I’ve actually been chatting with them for some years about various efforts, sometimes supported by nonprofits, which actually go after bad guys and scan the internet looking for sites which are trying to do things like download malware onto your systems when you visit them.
事实上，我多年来一直在与他们谈论各种努力，有时是由非营利组织支持的，这些组织实际上是在追捕坏人，并扫描互联网寻找试图执行诸如在您访问它们时将恶意软件下载到您的系统上之类的网站。
I got their advice when it came to funding something called Shadowserver.
当我谈到资助 Shadowserver 项目时，我得到了他们的建议。
It’s not as exotic as it sounds, but they actually scan the net, and they run honeypots, which are sites that look like vulnerable companies that the bad guys will try to load ransomware on.
这并不像听起来那么奇特，但他们实际上扫描网络，并运行蜜罐，这些网站看起来像易受攻击的公司，坏人会尝试在其上加载勒索软件。
In the whole process, the Shadowserver people can figure out what’s going on.
整个过程，Shadowserver的人都能搞清楚是怎么回事。
The FBI also needs to launch a new program alerting people to the dangers of scams, but that’s a program that’s not fully announced yet.
联邦调查局还需要启动一项新计划，提醒人们注意诈骗的危险，但该计划尚未完全公布。
What propelled you to become a Swiftie?
是什么促使您成为 Swiftie？
Oh.
哦。
For some reason, her music is very accessible.
出于某种原因，她的音乐很容易理解。
There are unexpected depths to it.
其中有意想不到的深度。
It’s snappy in a way that no one else’s music is otherwise.
它的活泼程度是其他人的音乐所没有的。
I just generally have a sense that I have to like more than just Leonard Cohen.
我只是普遍有一种感觉，我必须不仅仅喜欢莱昂纳德·科恩。
You once sold part of Craigslist to eBay and then bought it back.
您曾经将 Craigslist 的一部分卖给 eBay，然后又买回来。
Will you ever sell it all?
你会全部卖掉吗？
What will Craigslist be in 50 years?
50 年后 Craigslist 会变成什么样子？
Personally speaking, I’ve put all of my Craigslist ownership into a nonprofit foundation, a 501(c)(4).
就我个人而言，我已将 Craigslist 的所有所有权投入到非营利基金会 501(c)(4) 中。
All dividends, all sales of equity go in there.
所有的股息、所有的股权出售都在那里。
The way Craigslist runs is very unconventional.
Craigslist 的运营方式非常非传统。
Jim’s the boss.
吉姆是老板。
Now and then, if I say something smart, I can influence things.
有时，如果我说一些聪明的话，我就能影响事情。
Basically, I’m at that phase in my life where I’m giving away money.
基本上，我正处于人生中捐钱的阶段。
That act of putting all the equity into that 501(c)(4), I call it a septagenarian fund because I turned 70 then, and that’s where the money has gone.
将所有股权投入 501(c)(4) 的行为，我称其为七十多岁基金，因为当时我已经 70 岁了，这就是钱的去向。
I had to run it by Mrs. Newmark, of course.
当然，我必须由纽马克夫人来管理。
She might have liked me to tell her that I was calling it the septagenarian fund because that’s when I turned 70.
她可能希望我告诉她，我将其称为七十多岁基金，因为那时我已经 70 岁了。
Oddly, I made the decision to do that just after I think it was the Patagonia guy decided to do the same thing.
奇怪的是，就在我认为巴塔哥尼亚人决定做同样的事情之后，我就做出了这样做的决定。
He announced it on the day that I made the decision, which was funny.
他在我做出决定的那天就宣布了这一点，这很有趣。
Why is strong water pressure so important in a shower?
为什么强大的水压在淋浴时如此重要？
It is.
这是。
I fully agree with you on that.
我完全同意你的观点。
Let’s say that there are some luxuries I enjoy, all the books I want, all the streaming TV I want.
假设我喜欢一些奢侈品，我想要所有的书籍，我想要所有的流媒体电视。
My real idea of luxury is a really good shower.
我真正的奢华理念是一个非常好的淋浴。
For me, a really good shower has good pressure.
对我来说，真正好的淋浴需要良好的水压。
It doesn’t have to be strong, but it needs to be strong enough.
不一定要很强，但一定要足够强。
It has to be a walk-in shower because of my previously mentioned decrepitude.
由于我之前提到的衰老，所以必须是步入式淋浴间。
I don’t want to fall, and also not wanting to fall, I want a grab bar.
我不想摔倒，也不想摔倒，我想要一个扶手。
I’m afraid having grab bars everywhere is now becoming a household design criteria for me, and I wish that was a joke.
恐怕到处都有扶手现在已经成为我的家居设计标准，我希望这是一个笑话。
What’s something you try to do every day that you really love?
有什么事情是你每天都尝试做并且真正喜欢做的？
That I really love, I’m afraid, is some combination of getting stuff done, food, and, unfortunately, I practice the “see food” diet.
恐怕我真正喜欢的是完成工作和食物的结合，不幸的是，我实行“看食物”饮食。
Then I’ll do some reading, generally a trashy science fiction or spy novel.
然后我会读一些书，通常是垃圾科幻小说或间谍小说。
Then I’ll watch some TV, sometimes TV that I’m not proud of watching.
然后我会看一些电视，有时是我不以观看为荣的电视。
Here’s one for both of us.
这是给我们俩的。
I’ll try it first.
我先试试。
What are your favorite movies and why?
您最喜欢的电影是什么？为什么？
I love Bergman films, Smiles of a Summer Night.
我喜欢伯格曼的电影《夏夜的微笑》。
Scenes from a Marriage, Devil’s Eye, many others.
婚姻场景、恶魔之眼等等。
Hitchcock films, maybe my favorites, are Rear Window and Vertigo.
希区柯克的电影，也许是我最喜欢的，是《后窗》和《迷魂记》。
Most recently, I liked the movie Sirat and The Drama.
最近，我喜欢电影《Sirat and The Drama》。
Craig, what are your favorite movies and why?
克雷格，你最喜欢的电影是什么，为什么？
Blade Runner.
银翼杀手。
The director’s cut, right?
导演剪辑版吧？
I’m not sure which because I do like voiceovers.
我不确定是哪一个，因为我确实喜欢配音。
It’s the hard-boiled tradition.
这是冷酷的传统。
Beyond that, I like long-form TV.
除此之外，我喜欢长篇电视。
Again, there’s For All Mankind on Apple TV now, Severance, Slow Horses with my role model, except for the hygiene part.
再说一次，Apple TV 上现在有《为了全人类》、《遣散费》、《慢马》和我的榜样，除了卫生部分。
Do you like Westworld?
你喜欢西部世界吗？
I loved Westworld, particularly the first season, since, in decades of reading science fiction, it offered the first reasonable explanation of how artificial consciousness could come about, and that’s a big deal for me.
我喜欢《西部世界》，尤其是第一季，因为在几十年阅读科幻小说的过程中，它首次对人工意识如何产生提供了合理的解释，这对我来说很重要。
There’s so many others.
还有很多其他的。
It’s hard to think of them because once I finish watching a series, I move on to the next one.
很难想到它们，因为一旦我看完一个系列，我就会继续看下一个。
I loved My Mother the Car, but that was about 60 years ago, and I have no idea why that occurred to me.
我爱我的汽车妈妈，但那是大约 60 年前的事了，我不知道为什么我会产生这样的想法。
That may have been before your time.
那可能是在你之前的事了。
It was.
是的。
Since you’re from Morristown, New Jersey, is The Sopranos too foreign to you or too close, or does it make sense?
既然你来自新泽西州的莫里斯敦，那么《黑道家族》对你来说是太陌生还是太亲近，或者它有意义吗？
It made vague sense in terms of milieu, but my brother lived in that milieu, and we drove through it a few times, and The Sopranos perfectly captures it.
就环境而言，它的意义很模糊，但我哥哥住在那种环境中，我们开车经过了几次，《黑道家族》完美地捕捉到了这一点。
Also, in the same milieu, there’s The Real Housewives of New Jersey, and he says it is perfect.
此外，在同样的环境中，还有《新泽西的真正家庭主妇》，他说这很完美。
I’ve never watched it.
我从来没有看过它。
Just last week, the New Jersey state guy in charge of computer security said that he loves The Sopranos intro because, as Tony drives out of New York, he passes by a lot of critical infrastructure, even refineries, all of which it is his job to worry about.
就在上周，新泽西州负责计算机安全的官员表示，他喜欢《黑道家族》的简介，因为当托尼开车离开纽约时，他会经过许多关键基础设施，甚至是炼油厂，所有这些都是他的工作需要担心的。
Very last question.
最后一个问题。
What is it you want to learn about next?
接下来你想了解什么？
Basically, I need to learn better skills in terms of understanding the social impact, or not, of the people I provide grants to.
基本上，我需要学习更好的技能来了解我向其提供资助的人是否会产生社会影响。
This is a big problem in philanthropy.
这是慈善事业中的一个大问题。
It’s related to the whole giving pledge thing because there’s a lot of stuff that’s not effective at all.
这与整个捐赠承诺有关，因为有很多东西根本没有效果。
There’s a lot of stuff that’s so-so, and then there’s stuff which actually does make a difference.
有很多东西马马虎虎，但也有一些东西确实有所作为。
I need to better learn to tell the difference.
我需要更好地学会区分。
A lot of this revolves around communications because a lot of people who do great work, because they’re skilled in the work, are not skilled in terms of communications.
其中很多都围绕着沟通，因为很多工作出色的人，因为他们在工作上很熟练，但在沟通方面并不熟练。
I’m now considering two big grants, both at the same major university in the neighborhood, and I need to help them understand that they can’t rely on university marketing communications to do a good job.
我现在正在考虑两项大笔资助，都在附近的同一所主要大学，我需要帮助他们明白，他们不能依靠大学营销传播来做好工作。
They’ll have to do it themselves.
他们必须自己做。
I should add that neither of them are Ivy League.
我应该补充一点，他们都不是常春藤盟校。
Craig Newmark, thank you very much.
克雷格·纽马克，非常感谢你。