Conversations with Tyler 2023 Retrospective (Ep. 200)

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the special episode of Conversations with Tyler.

大家好，欢迎收看《与泰勒对话》特别节目。

This is the 2023 retrospective, where we take a look back at the previous year in conversations, look back at Tyler’s pop culture picks from 2013, and other topics besides.

这是 2023 年回顾展，我们在对话中回顾过去一年，回顾泰勒 2013 年的流行文化精选，以及其他话题。

My name is Jeff Holmes; I produce Conversations with Tyler.

我的名字是杰夫·霍姆斯；我制作了《与泰勒对话》。

Tyler, welcome to the show.

泰勒，欢迎来到这个节目。

It’s always such a pleasure to do Conversations with Tyler with you, Jeff.

杰夫，和你一起与泰勒对话总是很愉快。

This is an extra, extra special episode because this is the 200th episode of Conversations with Tyler.

这是一个非常非常特别的剧集，因为这是《与泰勒对话》的第 200 集。

200th?

第200个？

That’s a lot, yes.

是的，很多。

Yes.

是的。

We released 33 original episodes this year.

今年我们发布了 33 集原创剧集。

That’s the most we’ve ever done by far.

这是迄今为止我们做过的最多的事情。

When we started the first, I had no idea it was a podcast.

当我们开始第一个节目时，我不知道这是一个播客。

It was with Peter Thiel.

是和彼得·蒂尔一起的。

I just thought it was a one-off event.

我只是以为这只是一次性事件。

I was reflecting — obviously, when you review the year in Conversations with Tyler, you start thinking about the origin story.

我在反思——显然，当你在《与泰勒对话》中回顾这一年时，你会开始思考起源故事。

It started as an event series.

它最初是作为一个系列活动开始的。

I don’t know if we’ve talked about that on the podcast.

我不知道我们是否在播客上讨论过这个问题。

I’ve definitely talked about it with listeners, but this got a slow start, where it started as an event series.

我确实已经与听众讨论过这个问题，但它的起步很慢，它是作为一个事件系列开始的。

Yes.

是的。

Ideally, a podcast, I think, should be once every day.

我认为，理想情况下，播客应该每天一次。

That’s not possible for a number of reasons, but there is something socially optimal about that: that you wake up in the morning and you know there’s a podcast for you, and you only listen, say, to the 11 a year you care about the most, but that will be a different 11 for every person.

由于多种原因，这是不可能的，但是这在社会上是最佳的：你早上醒来，你知道有一个播客适合你，你只听一年中你最关心的 11 个播客，但这对每个人来说都是不同的 11 个。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

You talked to me about another podcast idea before this.

在此之前你跟我谈过另一个播客想法。

That’s not the first time you’ve brought up the daily podcast.

这不是你第一次提起每日播客。

Maybe soon, everyone will have their AI assistant, and everyone will have their personal podcast, and it’ll be up to the listener to decide whose they want to spend time with.

也许很快，每个人都会有自己的人工智能助手，每个人都会有自己的个人播客，并且由听众决定他们想和谁共度时光。

No, it’ll be up to the AI.

不，这将取决于人工智能。

You’ll ask your AI, “Which are the new podcasts that I want to hear?”

你会问你的人工智能，“我想听哪些新播客？”

Yes, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

You’re looking at the list of Conversations in front of you, 33 original episodes.

您正在查看面前的对话列表，其中有 33 个原创剧集。

Let’s do some numbers.

让我们做一些数字。

Most popular episode of the year — which ones do you think were the most listened-to episodes of the year?

年度最受欢迎剧集 — 您认为年度收听次数最多的剧集是哪些？

I never have a good sense of this.

我对此一直没有很好的认识。

I suspect the one with Jonathan GPT Swift was either the most or the least listened to, but I don’t know which.

我怀疑 Jonathan GPT Swift 的那首歌曲要么是听得最多的，要么是听得最少的，但我不知道是哪一个。

Maybe Rick Rubin was pretty popular?

也许里克·鲁宾很受欢迎？

Tyler, you could do better than that.

泰勒，你可以做得更好。

Look at this list again and say, who was the one who CWT listeners would absolutely turn out and listen to in droves?

再看看这份名单，谁是 CWT 听众绝对会蜂拥而至的人？

I don’t know.

我不知道。

Paul Graham?

保罗·格雷厄姆？

Paul Graham.

保罗·格雷厄姆.

Yes, by far.

是的，到目前为止。

Good.

好的。

GPT Swift I think was just middling, so it was not an underperformer, but it certainly didn’t overperform.

我认为 GPT Swift 只是中等水平，所以它不是表现不佳，但它肯定没有表现出色。

Paul Graham was absolutely the top this year and broke first-day listens, first-week listens, overall downloads — a clear favorite.

保罗·格雷厄姆 (Paul Graham) 绝对是今年的冠军，他打破了首日收听量、首周收听量和整体下载量——显然是最受欢迎的。

That tells us something about our audience, right?

这告诉了我们一些关于我们的观众的信息，对吗？

Yes, it does.

是的，确实如此。

Also, the paucity of Paul Graham interviews.

此外，保罗·格雷厄姆的采访也很少。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

There are only a few, so he was easy to prepare for.

数量很少，所以他很容易做好准备。

There’s not much you can do.

你无能为力。

You read all his essays, or reread them rather, and you’re done.

你阅读了他所有的文章，或者更确切地说重读了它们，然后你就完成了。

Then you study 18th-century British art and hope that leads to something.

然后你研究 18 世纪的英国艺术，并希望能有所收获。

He was maybe the easiest prep.

他可能是最容易准备的。

Who was the most difficult prep this year?

今年谁是最难准备的？

Jonathan GPT Swift is difficult because you have to read most of Swift.

Jonathan GPT Swift 很难，因为你必须阅读 Swift 的大部分内容。

Who else here?

这里还有谁？

Anna Keay was very difficult because 17th-century England has an enormously large literature.

安娜·凯（Anna Keay）非常困难，因为 17 世纪的英国拥有大量的文学作品。

Noam Dworman was difficult because learning the history of comedy cannot really be done by reading.

诺姆·德沃曼（Noam Dwoman）很难，因为学习喜剧的历史并不能真正通过阅读来完成。

Lazarus Lake — I mostly prepared for that using GPT because he hasn’t written much.

Lazarus Lake — 我主要是使用 GPT 来准备的，因为他写的东西不多。

There’s not that much written on ultramarathons, so you keep on asking GPT for background context, and then you get somewhere.

关于超级马拉松的文章并不多，所以你不断地向 GPT 询问背景信息，然后你就会有所收获。

Other than Paul Graham, most popular episodes this year: Coming in second was Reid Hoffman — his second appearance — talking about AI.

除了保罗·格雷厄姆之外，今年最受欢迎的剧集：排在第二位的是里德·霍夫曼（Reid Hoffman）——“他第二次出场”——谈论人工智能。

I took a skim through that one, and AI’s fraught because things are changing every day.

我浏览了一遍，人工智能令人担忧，因为事情每天都在变化。

Developments are rapid, but that one was more conceptual.

发展很快，但更具概念性。

I think it has held up really well.

我认为它一直保持得很好。

Did you have any reflections on that now — I don’t know what — seven months after it was recorded?

现在 —— 我不知道是什么 —— 在录制之后的七个月里，你对此有什么感想吗？

I promised Reid to do another one with him a year or two from now because everything will be so different.

我答应里德一两年后再和他一起做一次，因为一切都会变得如此不同。

The fact that we could keep on doing this podcast every month, and it would be interesting every month, is what’s important there.

事实上，我们每个月都可以继续做这个播客，而且每个月都会很有趣，这才是重要的。

Then third in popularity this year was Noam Chomsky.

今年人气排名第三的是诺姆·乔姆斯基。

People turned out for Chomsky.

人们纷纷支持乔姆斯基。

If you look at the MR comments, people complain.

如果你看看 MR 的评论，人们就会抱怨。

They’re like, “Oh, Chomsky is terrible on some of these subjects.

他们就像，“哦，乔姆斯基在其中一些主题上很糟糕。

Why didn’t Tyler challenge him more?” What were your thoughts?

泰勒为什么不向他提出更多挑战呢？”你的想法是什么？

What were you trying to get out of Chomsky?

你想从乔姆斯基那里得到什么？

He’s doing a lot of interviews now.

他现在正在进行很多采访。

He’s 94.

他94岁了。

His birthday’s actually tomorrow — we’re recording this on December 6 — according to Wikipedia.

他的生日实际上是明天 ——“我们将在 12 月 6 日记录这一点”—— 根据维基百科。

Maybe it’s hallucinating.

也许这是幻觉。

But what were you trying to get out of it?

但你想从中得到什么？

That’s a unique experience.

这是一次独特的体验。

You have a chance to do Chomsky.

你有机会模仿乔姆斯基。

Maybe you don’t even want to do it, but you feel, “If I don’t do it, I’ll regret not having done it.” Just like we didn’t get to chat with Charlie Munger in time, though he’s far more, I would say, closer to truth than Chomsky is.

也许你根本不想做，但你会觉得，“如果我不做，我会后悔没有做。”就像我们没有及时与查理·芒格交谈一样，尽管我想说，他比乔姆斯基更接近真理。

The engagement on the Chomsky episode was very good.

乔姆斯基这一集的参与度非常好。

Some people on MR were saying, “I turned it off.

MR 上的一些人说：“我把它关掉了。

I couldn’t listen to it.” But actually, most people listened to it.

我听不进去。”但事实上，大多数人都听过。

It did, actually, probably better than average in terms of engagement, in terms of how much of the episode, on average, people listen to.

事实上，就参与度而言，就人们平均收听剧集的程度而言，它可能比平均水平要好。

How can you turn it off?

你怎么能把它关掉呢？

What does that say about you?

这对你来说意味着什么？

Were you surprised?

你感到惊讶吗？

You thought that Chomsky had become George Stigler or something?

你以为乔姆斯基变成了乔治·斯蒂格勒什么的？

No.

不。

You never know.

你永远不知道。

Once you get into your 90s, who knows what might happen there?

一旦你进入 90 多岁，谁知道会发生什么？

Speaking of which, you mentioned Charlie Munger.

说到这里，你提到了查理·芒格。

We had an interview scheduled with Charlie Munger in January of 2024.

我们计划于 2024 年 1 月采访查理·芒格。

His birthday, I believe, is in December.

我相信他的生日是十二月。

He was going to be 100 years old when we would’ve interviewed him.

当我们采访他时，他已经 100 岁了。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

Recently, Henry Kissinger died.

最近，亨利·基辛格去世了。

We’ve had our —

我们已经有了我们的 ——

I didn’t want to do him, by the way.

顺便说一句，我不想做他。

I felt there was no good way I could handle it.

我觉得没有什么好的办法可以处理。

Some of what he did was very good, but a lot was very bad, and I just figured, stay away.

他所做的一些事情非常好，但很多事情都非常糟糕，我只是想，远离他。

I think he might’ve done one with us two or three years earlier, but it didn’t interest me.

我想他可能在两三年前就和我们做过一个，但我对此不感兴趣。

Then this morning, actually, it was announced that Norman Lear died, the television pioneer.

事实上，今天早上，电视先驱诺曼·李尔去世了。

Oh, I didn’t know that.

哦，我不知道。

Yes.

是的。

He was 101 years old and pretty active until at least a year or two ago.

他已经 101 岁了，至少在一两年前还很活跃。

Do you have any thoughts on centenarians?

你对百岁老人有什么看法吗？

It seems it’s a weird coincidence that in the past few weeks, we’ve had people who have been very active — Kissinger, Munger, Norman Lear — making it to 100 or at least near 100.

这似乎是一个奇怪的巧合，在过去的几周里，我们有一些非常活跃的人——基辛格、芒格、诺曼·李尔——使其达到 100 人或至少接近 100 人。

We need to get one on the show.

我们需要在节目中得到一个。

Who’s the best candidate at this point?

目前谁是最佳人选？

Vernon Smith?

弗农·史密斯？

Probably, yes.

可能是的。

What’s he?

他是什么？

96, 97?

96、97？

Yes.

是的。

If he shows his worth as an economist over the next few years, maybe we’ll give him an invite.

如果他在未来几年表现出作为经济学家的价值，也许我们会邀请他。

Warren Buffet is not that far behind Munger.

沃伦·巴菲特并不落后芒格多少。

I think he’s in his early 90s.

我认为他已经 90 岁出头了。

I’m not sure on that.

我对此不太确定。

He’s harder to get, I think.

我认为他更难得到。

Yes.

是的。

I also did something this year that I haven’t looked at before.

今年我还做了一些以前没有看过的事情。

I mentioned the engagement for the Chomsky episode was good.

我提到乔姆斯基这一集的参与度很好。

I looked and just saw who was actually the highest engagement — who actually, on average, most people listened to the most and got through most of the episode.

我看了看，发现谁实际上参与度最高——实际上，平均而言，大多数人听得最多，并看完了大部分剧集。

You mean relative to total numbers or absolute?

你的意思是相对总数还是绝对？

Sort of asked the question, on average, how much of an episode do people listen to?

有点问这样的问题，平均来说，人们会听多少集？

Okay.

好的。

Conditional on starting, is that Katherine Rundell?

有条件开始，是凯瑟琳·伦德尔吗？

It’s not.

它不是。

The two winners — it’s a very tight field.

两位获胜者 ——竞争非常激烈。

It’s not like there’s some runaway winner.

并不像是有什么逃跑的赢家。

These are all very, very similar.

这些都非常非常相似。

But if you look at the top for retention, as it’s called, Brad DeLong, number one, and Seth Godin.

但如果你看看高层的保留率，就像所谓的那样，排名第一的布拉德·德隆和塞斯·戈丁。

As a measure of engagement of the ones that people really tended to stick to to the end, those were the two at the top of the pack.

作为人们真正倾向于坚持到底的参与度的衡量标准，这两个是最重要的。

I would think Vishy Anand might have won that also because there’s plenty of reasons why you might not care, but you know up front — it’s a bit like Chomsky — he’s a chess player; you’re going to get chess.

我认为维希·阿南德（Vishy Anand）可能会赢，因为有很多原因让你可能不在乎，但你事先就知道 ——“这有点像乔姆斯基”——“他是一名国际象棋棋手；他是一名国际象棋棋手；他是一名国际象棋棋手；他是一名国际象棋棋手；他是一位国际象棋棋手。”你会得到国际象棋。

If you don’t want chess, don’t even start.

如果你不想下棋，就不要开始。

All right.

好吧。

I’m going to move on to underrated, and I’ll tip my cap a little bit here and say that Vishy was actually one of my picks for underrated episodes this year.

我要继续讨论被低估的话题，在这里我要稍微透露一下，《维西》实际上是我今年选择的被低估的剧集之一。

He did fine, but actually, I think his engagement was lower, his download numbers were lower.

他做得很好，但实际上，我认为他的参与度较低，他的下载量也较低。

I think it was, as you said, that a lot of people looked in and said, “I don’t know anything about chess.” They either didn’t listen to it at all, or they gave up on it at some point in the interview.

我认为，正如你所说，很多人看了后都说：“我对国际象棋一无所知。”他们要么根本不听，要么在采访的某个时刻放弃了。

It’s maybe our very best episode on human psychology, of the whole 200.

这可能是我们 200 集关于人类心理学的最好的一集。

Yes.

是的。

He was also just so delighted to talk about chess.

他也很高兴谈论国际象棋。

And not have to dumb it down.

并且不必将其简化。

Yes.

是的。

So that was one of my picks.

所以这是我的选择之一。

I agree.

我同意。

What would your picks be for underrated?

如果被低估，你会选择什么？

We went through the most popular ones, but what do you think is underrated?

我们浏览了最受欢迎的内容，但您认为哪些内容被低估了？

Well, I don’t know how these are rated, but I thought Lazarus Lake was one of the best episodes.

好吧，我不知道这些剧集是如何评价的，但我认为拉扎勒斯湖是最好的剧集之一。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

It just captured something about him.

它只是捕捉到了关于他的一些东西。

I don’t know how many listeners that had.

我不知道有多少听众。

Katherine Rundell is one of my all-time favorites.

凯瑟琳·伦德尔是我一直以来最喜欢的人之一。

Rick Rubin was a great deal of fun for me and a real honor.

里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin）给我带来了很多乐趣，也是一种真正的荣幸。

Noam Dworman — I thought we had very good rapport and back and forth, but they’re all underrated, I have to say, right?

诺姆·德沃曼 — 我以为我们的关系非常融洽，但我不得不说，他们都被低估了，对吧？

Lazarus Lake — that was one of those episodes.

拉扎勒斯湖——那是其中的一集。

Every once in a while, there’s an episode where as soon as you listen to it, you think, “This is really special.” I would say Richard Prum was one of those episodes.

每隔一段时间，就会有这样一集，你一听就会觉得，“这真的很特别。”我想说理查德·普鲁姆就是其中之一。

I had the experience listening to the Lazarus Lake episode similar to that, where it’s like, “This is an all-timer for me.” There was something about it — the way that he was, the topics he was talking about — it was actually heartwarming and affirming, but there was also some good stuff in there about competition and self-improvement.

我听过类似的《拉扎勒斯湖》一集，感觉就像是“这对我来说是一个空前绝后的经历”。这里面有一些东西——“他的为人，他谈论的话题”——这实际上是温暖人心和肯定的，但其中也有一些关于竞争和自我提升的好东西。

It’s one of our most moving episodes, but I think it is a Tyler question.

这是我们最感人的剧集之一，但我认为这是泰勒的问题。

How is it you feel you’re going to face death?

面对死亡，你感觉如何？

I want to ask more people that one.

我想请教更多的人。

It’s hard to B.S.

B.S.很难。

in response to that question without sounding like an idiot.

回答这个问题，听起来不像个白痴。

So that makes it a Tyler question.

这就是泰勒的问题。

You get a sense of how thoughtful a person is, and how they respond on the fly because I don’t think too many people have a ready answer.

你可以感觉到一个人有多么体贴，以及他们如何即时做出反应，因为我认为没有太多人有现成的答案。

You’re not used to hearing that in an interview.

你不习惯在采访中听到这样的话。

“Oh, and by the way, President Carter, how do you feel you’re going to face your own death?” It doesn’t come up that much.

“哦，顺便问一下，卡特总统，面对自己的死亡，你感觉如何？”它并没有出现那么多。

I will go ahead and ask it.

我会去问它。

How do you feel you’re going to face death?

面对死亡，你感觉如何？

I think it will come suddenly, and I won’t be faced with that much of an issue, but that could be a delusion.

我认为它会突然到来，我不会面临那么大的问题，但这可能是一种错觉。

That’s my hope.

这就是我的希望。

I feel like the hope is that it will come suddenly, and you won’t be aware of it.

我觉得希望是它会突然到来，而你却没有意识到。

I think I have a fear — like a lot of people — that, if I know death is coming, there will be moments I will be very at peace with it and moments where I’ll completely lose composure.

我想我有一种恐惧——就像很多人一样——如果我知道死亡即将来临，有些时候我会非常平静，有些时候我会完全失去冷静。

My hope is that I can actually have my final moment be one where I have composure and not be in a panic, but I don’t feel like I have a way of ensuring that in any way.

我的希望是，我实际上可以在最后时刻保持镇静，而不是惊慌失措，但我觉得我没有办法以任何方式确保这一点。

Robin Hanson has looked into this a bit, and he tells me, in people’s final moments, they’re typically very, very weak and just have way less reactions, period, than they think they’re going to, and it’s not that much of a question.

罗宾·汉森（Robin Hanson）对此进行了一些研究，他告诉我，在人们的最后时刻，他们通常非常非常虚弱，只是反应比他们想象的要少得多，这不是什么大问题。

That was his empirical finding.

这是他的实证发现。

Some solid empirics on that too.

这方面也有一些可靠的经验。

Assuaged my panic event.

缓解了我的恐慌事件。

Solid empirics remain underrated, I would say.

我想说，扎实的经验仍然被低估。

Those were our picks for underrated.

这些是我们选择被低估的。

I definitely encourage all of you.

我绝对鼓励你们所有人。

We had a listener meetup earlier this year, and I was surprised to find that — and I’ve heard this since — that many listeners use this episode as an episode guide of sorts to go back and check out episodes if they missed them.

今年早些时候我们举行了一次听众聚会，我惊讶地发现 ——从那以后我就听到了这一点——很多听众使用这一集作为某种剧集指南，如果他们错过了剧集，可以回去查看这些剧集。

Some people actually hold them in reserve and use this as a guide.

有些人实际上保留了它们并以此作为指导。

Definitely check out the episodes that we’ve mentioned, but I would be curious to hear what other people’s picks were as well.

一定要看看我们提到的剧集，但我也很想听听其他人的选择。

So, let us know.

那么，请告诉我们。

I’m curious to know.

我很想知道。

We didn’t have many bad episodes, but I won’t say how many we had.

我们没有太多糟糕的情节，但我不会说我们有多少。

Jonathan GPT Swift, that guy — it was just hard to deal with.

乔纳森·GPT 斯威夫特，那个家伙 —— 很难对付。

Well, he had a commanding knowledge of history.

嗯，他对历史有渊博的知识。

You can say that for him.

你可以替他这么说。

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Last year on the retrospective, I think it was in the context of asking what you’ll be working on next, and you mentioned that you had a book that you were working on about top economists, who’s the best economist.

去年的回顾展上，我认为是在问你下一步要做什么的背景下，你提到你正在写一本关于顶级经济学家的书，谁是最好的经济学家。

You indicated that it was dependent on publishing things, like maybe the paperback of Talent would be coming out, so you were not sure, but it was basically ready.

你表示这取决于出版的事情，比如《Talent》的平装本可能会出版，所以你不确定，但基本上已经准备好了。

The site is econgoat.ai.

该网站是 ecogoat.ai。

Most of the book I wrote during the depths of the pandemic, the very worst parts, where you couldn’t get to libraries or do many things or travel much.

这本书的大部分内容是我在大流行最严重的时候写的，这是最糟糕的部分，在那里你无法去图书馆或做很多事情或旅行。

I just thought, “What’s the project I can do where I won’t be driven crazy?”

我只是想，“有什么项目可以让我不被逼疯呢？”

You’re planning on using it, I believe, in a class that you’re teaching next semester?

我相信您计划在下学期教授的课程中使用它？

History of Economic Thought.

经济思想史。

It’s a graduate class I’m teaching, already fully subscribed.

这是我正在教授的研究生课程，已经全部订阅了。

Of course, the book to the students — as for everyone else — it will be completely free, and they can just ask away.

当然，这本书对学生来说——至于其他人——完全免费，他们可以直接问。

A professor at Purdue, I believe, reached out to us and was planning on doing the same.

我相信普渡大学的一位教授联系了我们并计划做同样的事情。

I wasn’t necessarily thinking of that as a use case, but it makes complete sense.

我不一定认为这是一个用例，但它完全有道理。

I think in this case, the professor was mentioning that it’s hard to pinpoint, sometimes, a specific book to do a bunch of readings.

我认为在这种情况下，教授提到有时很难确定一本特定的书来进行大量阅读。

Well, maybe you can do a reading or two, but also just use a tailored AI assistant to help give you that context that you would get from multiple readings.

好吧，也许你可以阅读一两本，但也可以使用定制的人工智能助手来帮助你提供从多次阅读中获得的背景信息。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

It’s kind of a meta book.

这是一本元书。

You can ask it, “What did Joseph Schumpeter say about Walras?” And it will give you a reasonable answer.

你可以问它：“约瑟夫·熊彼特对瓦尔拉斯说了什么？”并且会给你一个合理的答案。

Who got the biggest upgrade, and who got the biggest downgrade in the writing of the book?

在这本书的写作中，谁得到了最大的提升，谁得到了最大的降级？

John Stuart Mill got the biggest upgrade.

约翰·斯图尔特·米尔 (John Stuart Mill) 获得了最大的升级。

Just how much Mill there is — it’s either 32 or 33 volumes.

《米尔》到底有多少本——有 32 卷，也有 33 卷。

If you just open up to pages randomly, it’s interesting almost all the time.

如果你只是随机打开页面，它几乎总是很有趣。

He wrote about the ancient world, wrote about Plato and Socrates, wrote about the French historians in addition to the well-known works.

除了著名的作品外，他还写古代世界，写柏拉图和苏格拉底，写法国历史学家。

Reviewed Tocqueville.

回顾托克维尔。

That to me was the biggest upgrade.

这对我来说是最大的升级。

Yes.

是的。

You’ll be happy to know I read this in the Tyler Cowen fashion, Because I was working on the AI assistant for the book, I will say, I looked at every page of the book, as you have said from time to time.

你会很高兴知道我以泰勒·考恩的方式读了这本书，因为我正在为这本书开发人工智能助手，我会说，我看了这本书的每一页，正如你不时所说的那样。

So in that sense, have I read it?

那么从这个意义上说，我读过它吗？

Maybe, but I’ve worked a lot with the AI assistant.

也许吧，但我和人工智能助手一起工作了很多。

I read some of it traditionally, and I’ve looked at every page.

我按照传统方式阅读了其中的一些内容，并且我浏览了每一页。

I think this is encouraging people to rethink how they read.

我认为这鼓励人们重新思考他们的阅读方式。

With the app, you can just ask it, “Well, the chapter on Keynes — give me three anecdotes for a cocktail party.

有了这个应用程序，你可以直接问它：“好吧，关于凯恩斯的章节——给我讲三个鸡尾酒会的轶事。

I don’t want to read the chapter.” It will do that quite well.

我不想读这一章。”它会做得很好。

Now, if that’s how most people read anyway — and there’s a lot of evidence from, say, Kindle, that that is how most people read — why shouldn’t we cater to that demand?

现在，如果这就是大多数人的阅读方式 ——并且有很多证据表明，比如 Kindle，这就是大多数人的阅读方式 ——为什么我们不应该满足这种需求呢？

That’s maybe a cynical view of what people read books for.

这也许是对人们读书目的的一种愤世嫉俗的看法。

Mostly they just don’t read them.

大多数情况下，他们只是不读它们。

They buy them, and they sit dormant.

他们买了它们，然后它们就处于休眠状态。

Mostly they don’t read them.

他们大多不读它们。

Certainly, podcasts have substituted for books.

当然，播客已经取代了书籍。

On some level, there’s a cynicism, where it’s a signaling thing.

在某种程度上，这是一种愤世嫉俗，这是一种信号。

You’re just trying to show a certain intellectual level of sophistication.

你只是想表现出一定的智力水平。

I’m fine with that competition.

我对那场比赛很满意。

Most authors are running away from it.

大多数作者都在逃避它。

I think we should run toward it and embrace it.

我认为我们应该奔向它并拥抱它。

If you have to figure out, “This is actually my comparative advantage,” it’s fantastic to know that.

如果你必须弄清楚，“这实际上是我的比较优势”，那么知道这一点真是太棒了。

Most authors never know that.

大多数作者从来不知道这一点。

When you read nonfiction books, you can read very fast, but you also read really efficiently.

当你阅读非小说类书籍时，你可以读得非常快，但你也可以非常高效地阅读。

You can skip parts of the book that you’re like, “I know this.”

你可以跳过书中你喜欢的部分，“我知道这一点。”

Which is often the case, yes.

是的，这种情况经常发生。

When would an LLM get good enough that you feel like it could help you do that?

LLM什么时候会变得足够好，让你觉得它可以帮助你做到这一点？

It can just excise the stuff that you don’t even need to see.

它可以删除你甚至不需要看到的东西。

I think in less than two years.

我想不到两年的时间。

Now, whether that’s a product on the market that I can subscribe to, I’m less sure of, but technologically speaking, it’s probably possible right now.

现在，我不太确定市场上是否有我可以订阅的产品，但从技术上来说，现在可能是可能的。

It’s a question of at what cost?

问题是要付出什么代价？

What’s the token cost?

代币成本是多少？

If it’s $2 per query to do that?

如果每次查询花费 2 美元呢？

Well, I’m not going to do that even if I could afford it.

好吧，即使我负担得起，我也不会这样做。

Again, it’ll be affordable in a few years’ time.

再说一次，几年后它就会变得负担得起。

You’ll train it on Tyler Cowen and then say, “Just take out the parts that Tyler already knows.”

你将在泰勒·考恩（Tyler Cowen）上训练它，然后说：“只需取出泰勒已经知道的部分即可。”

What would give you the certainty that it’s doing the job, and would you actually —

什么能让你确信它正在完成这项工作，你真的会 -

I don’t have the certainty now that I’m doing the job.

我现在不确定自己是否在做这份工作。

I’d be fine with that.

我会同意的。

I think it’d be 87 percent accurate, and I’d get to read much more, and then I would apply my own rules to what’s left in there.

我认为它的准确率是 87%，而且我会阅读更多内容，然后将我自己的规则应用到剩下的内容上。

If it leaves in too much, I would’ve been faced with that anyway.

如果它留下太多，我无论如何都会面临这个问题。

You can always set type I versus type II error.

您始终可以设置 I 类错误与 II 类错误。

It almost certainly has to be a help.

这几乎肯定是有帮助的。

I don’t see the scenario where it’s not a help.

我没有看到它没有帮助的情况。

It puts you, though, in a digital reading context, unless you’re having it print on demand for you somehow.

不过，它会将您置于数字阅读环境中，除非您以某种方式按需打印它。

Give that another year or two.

再过一两年。

If there’s something like a Kindle but more sophisticated — now that’s a kind of digital reading, but it would be enough like reading a book with some kind of screen.

如果有像 Kindle 这样但更复杂的东西——现在这就是一种数字阅读，但它就像在某种屏幕上阅读一本书就足够了。

Or it’s an audiobook and it just tells me the parts I didn’t know.

或者它是一本有声读物，它只是告诉我我不知道的部分。

Speaking of audiobooks, after this recording, we’re going to sit down and record a sample of you reading the book to generate a synthetic Tyler voice.

说到有声读物，在录制之后，我们将坐下来录制您阅读这本书的样本，以生成合成的泰勒声音。

I don’t think we even told you about this, but we’re going to take five minutes and have you record a sample to generate.

我认为我们甚至没有告诉过您这一点，但我们将花五分钟时间让您记录一个要生成的样本。

There’s not enough of my voice already with 200 episodes.

我的声音已经有 200 集了，还不够。

It has to be my book voice.

这一定是我的书声。

The Tyler-Cowen-talking-about-Adam-Smith book voice is a special thing, I suppose.

我想，泰勒·考恩谈论亚当·史密斯书中的声音是一件很特别的事情。

There is enough that we can do it, but we’ve been told by those in authority that we’ll get even better results if it’s you actually reading the book, so now, a five-minute sample will improve things.

我们可以做到的已经足够了，但权威人士告诉我们，如果您真正阅读这本书，我们会得到更好的结果，所以现在，五分钟的示例将改善情况。

Give me advice on how my book voice should be different than my podcast voice.

请给我一些建议，告诉我我的书本声音应该如何与我的播客声音不同。

Should it be more pompous?

是不是应该更浮夸一些？

It shouldn’t be more giggly, right?

不应该更搞笑，对吧？

That’s a question.

这是一个问题。

I’m not a big consumer of audiobooks.

我不是有声读物的大消费者。

I know you talked about it on the Brian Koppelman episode.

我知道你在 Brian Koppelman 节目中谈到过这个问题。

I think it is true that a lot of people — at least with nonfiction — they want to hear the actual author speak the words, and they imagine it — I think most people tend to imagine it in their voice if they have any conception of the author’s voice.

我认为确实有很多人 ——至少对于非小说类作品——他们想听真正的作者说出这些话，并且他们会想象它 ——我认为大多数人如果对作者的声音有任何概念，就会倾向于用自己的声音来想象。

One is it should be you.

一是应该是你。

I just don’t think you have that many register styles.

我只是认为你没有那么多的寄存器风格。

COWEN: That’s good.

考恩：那很好。

It makes it easy then.

这样就很容易了。

I don’t think you really need to worry too much about it.

我认为你真的不需要为此担心太多。

I think, actually, it would be totally fine as we were originally doing, where we just took an episode of Conversations with Tyler and said, “Here you go.” But we’ll give this a try and see what happens.

我认为，实际上，就像我们最初做的那样，完全没问题，我们刚刚拍摄了一集《与泰勒对话》，然后说：“给你。”但我们会尝试一下，看看会发生什么。

It needs to learn how I pronounce Smith, right?

它需要学习我如何发音 Smith，对吗？

Yes.

是的。

Maybe it will take with you some of your more idiosyncratic pronunciations as well, which is important to preserve.

也许它也会带走你一些更独特的发音，保留这一点很重要。

I don’t know if I even connected the dots there, but we’re doing that to generate an AI audiobook.

我不知道我是否把这些点联系起来，但我们这样做是为了生成一本人工智能有声读物。

Great.

伟大的。

When do we think that audiobook will be ready?

我们认为有声读物什么时候可以准备好？

Do you know?

你知道吗？

Right now, it’s a function, I think, mainly of when they give the synthetic voice back to us and how long it might take us to .

我认为，目前，这是一个功能，主要是他们何时将合成声音返回给我们以及我们可能需要多长时间。

.

。

.

。

It’s a fairly long book, so how long it’ll take us just to edit it and all.

这是一本相当长的书，所以我们需要多长时间才能编辑它以及所有内容。

Assuming we get the voice back relatively promptly, it’s days or weeks.

假设我们相对较快地收到语音，则需要几天或几周的时间。

It’s not a long process.

这不是一个漫长的过程。

How long does it take a human to actually package that audio file in a way that is presentable?

人们需要多长时间才能以可呈现的方式实际打包该音频文件？

I would think within a year, an AI should be able to edit it.

我认为一年之内，人工智能应该能够编辑它。

Again, I don’t think that’s a service currently available, but technologically, it should be possible right now.

再说一次，我不认为这是目前可用的服务，但从技术上讲，现在应该是可能的。

You feed it the text, you let it listen, you ask it about the discrepancies.

你向它提供文本，让它聆听，询问它的差异。

It sends you a list.

它会向您发送一个列表。

The nature of this is that you can’t imagine there being a lot of outright errors.

其本质是你无法想象会有很多彻底的错误。

It’s more about maybe having to divvy it up into chapters or things, like packaging as an audiobook, but it’s really not as labor intensive.

更多的是可能必须将其分成章节或其他内容，例如打包为有声读物，但它实际上并不那么劳动密集型。

Say when I write about Keynes being into eugenics.

比如说当我写到凯恩斯热衷于优生学时。

I’m not sure myself, what’s the right tone for that discussion?

我自己也不确定，讨论的正确基调是什么？

I wonder if the AI — I’m pretty sure they don’t change the tone at all.

我想知道人工智能是否 —— 我很确定他们根本不会改变语气。

It should sound more grave or something.

听起来应该更严肃一些。

That’s a great question.

这是一个很好的问题。

I don’t know to what extent there’s an ability for it to have that contextual awareness of, this is a more serious, grave matter.

我不知道它在多大程度上有能力有这样的情境意识，这是一个更严重、更严重的事情。

I’m sure there is.

我确信有。

I don’t think there is now in the current product.

我认为当前的产品中没有。

Again, I don’t think it’s at all difficult, but it’s just not set up as a current service.

再说一次，我认为这一点也不困难，但它只是没有设置为当前的服务。

You just select a mood and say, “Go for it.” Possibly.

你只需选择一种心情并说：“去做吧。”可能吧。

There might be a weird mood for some of these, where it’s a very light and lilting exposition on eugenics or whatever.

其中一些可能会有一种奇怪的情绪，这是对优生学或其他什么的非常轻松和轻快的阐述。

Or when Adam Smith is kidnapped by the gypsies, it’s all joyous.

或者当亚当·斯密被吉普赛人绑架时，一切都是欢乐的。

Of course.

当然。

That sounds fun.

听起来很有趣。

So, that is coming up as well.

所以，这也即将出现。

Almost anything, it can work.

几乎任何东西，它都可以工作。

It’s been done plenty for basketball.

对于篮球来说，这已经做了很多了。

There’s my take on economics.

这是我对经济学的看法。

I think the fundamental innovation is not GOAT per se, but writing from the perspective of a fan.

我觉得最根本的创新不是GOAT本身，而是从粉丝的角度来写。

It’s what a lot of people actually want.

这才是很多人真正想要的。

If you read, say, theringer.com, it’s written from the perspective of a fan, which is great.

如果你读到 theringer.com，你会发现它是从粉丝的角度写的，这很棒。

To have many more things written from the perspectives of fans, to me, is more important than whether or not they do GOAT.

对我来说，从粉丝的角度写更多的东西比他们是否成为山羊更重要。

That’s very much the Bill Simmons brand.

这就是比尔·西蒙斯的品牌。

I think the success of The Ringer has shown that that thing is really enticing, when you hear people come to it from deep appreciation and enthusiasm.

我认为《The Ringer》的成功表明，当你听到人们带着深深的欣赏和热情来到它时，它确实很有吸引力。

The goal is to teach people how to appreciate.

目的是教会人们如何欣赏。

How can you do that if they can’t even see you appreciating?

如果他们甚至看不到你的感激，你怎么能做到这一点呢？

It’s insane.

这太疯狂了。

The key thing — there’s plenty of information, but how do you motivate people to want to study?

关键的是 ——信息很多，但是如何激发人们学习的欲望呢？

Teaching them the art of appreciation is what CWT has been about from the beginning.

CWT 从一开始就致力于教导他们欣赏的艺术。

Like, here’s how I’ve learned to appreciate these people.

就像，这就是我学会欣赏这些人的方法。

You hope your listeners either appreciate them or just learn the general art of learning how to appreciate.

你希望你的听众要么欣赏他们，要么只是学习如何欣赏的一般艺术。

That’s the whole mission.

这就是整个使命。

What’s strange is Bill Simmons has even said that he noticed that that wasn’t the case always in sports writing, that he would read columns and think, “This person doesn’t even care about what they’re writing about.”

奇怪的是，比尔·西蒙斯甚至表示，他注意到体育写作中的情况并非总是如此，他会阅读专栏并思考，“这个人甚至不关心他们在写什么。”

Or they dislike it.

或者他们不喜欢它。

Or they actively disliked it.

或者他们非常不喜欢它。

How do you model that?

你如何建模？

I don’t understand.

我不明白。

I do, but if you can find people whose profession is to commentate on sports or these other things that seem like dream jobs, and they still don’t seem to actually like it, what’s the model for that?

我愿意，但如果你能找到一些人，他们的职业是体育评论或其他看似梦想的工作，但他们似乎仍然并不真正喜欢它，那么这种模式是什么？

How do we have hope that that can be brought to bear on things like who’s the GOAT of political science?

我们如何希望这能够应用于诸如谁是政治学山羊之类的问题？

You used to have these comprehensive media outlets that did sports pages.

你曾经拥有这些做体育版面的综合媒体。

It was never their specialty and probably didn’t have much influence over marginal subscribers or nonsubscribers.

这从来都不是他们的专长，可能对边缘订阅者或非订阅者没有太大影响。

The Washington Post, New York Times — they would sometimes have very good sports reporting, but a lot of the ordinary stuff was just not that interesting.

《华盛顿邮报》、《纽约时报》——他们有时会有非常好的体育报道，但很多普通的东西就没那么有趣了。

It didn’t use analytics.

它没有使用分析。

It wasn’t from the perspective of a fan.

这不是从粉丝的角度来看的。

By the way, I hope we have “Washington” in the reading sample because we’ve got to capture your “Warshington.” That’s a Tyler.

顺便说一句，我希望阅读样本中有“华盛顿”，因为我们必须捕获您的“沃辛顿”。那是泰勒。

I don’t know if it’s in the GOAT book, because none of the GOATs are in Warshington.

我不知道这是否在“山羊”书中，因为没有一个“山羊”在沃辛顿。

We’ve got it, either way.

不管怎样，我们已经做到了。

I don’t think the humanities are dying, and podcasts show that.

我不认为人文学科正在消亡，播客表明了这一点。

I don’t have data, but I suspect more people are reading Shakespeare than ever before.

我没有数据，但我怀疑阅读莎士比亚的人比以往任何时候都多。

Certainly, if you’re counting India and China, that’s quite likely.

当然，如果你算上印度和中国，那很有可能。

The presence of classical music on YouTube is very high.

YouTube 上古典音乐的出现率非常高。

Poetry — I wouldn’t quite say it’s popular, but it’s a thing, and I think it’s robust.

诗歌 —— 我不太会说它很流行，但它是一件事，而且我认为它很强大。

They’re being removed from the academy.

他们将被从学院开除。

That’s probably good for them at current margins.

以目前的利润率来看，这可能对他们有利。

Upcoming Conversations with Tyler guest Patrick McKenzie asks, “What has changed the most in your production function since LLMs became widely available?

《即将与泰勒对话》嘉宾帕特里克·麦肯齐 (Patrick McKenzie) 问道：“自从法学硕士广泛普及以来，你们的生产职能发生了最大的变化是什么？

And what will change the most over the next five years, assuming continued improvements?”

假设持续改进，未来五年最大的变化是什么？”

What I do when I prepare for a guest who hasn’t written a lot — I keep on interrogating the LLM about background and context, and that works very well.

当我为一位写得不多的客人做准备时，我会做什么 — 我不断询问法学硕士的背景和背景，这非常有效。

I mentioned that already with Lazarus Lake.

我已经在拉撒路湖中提到过这一点。

Has ChatGPT condensed the number of tabs you typically have open?

ChatGPT 是否压缩了您通常打开的选项卡数量？

Or has it expanded it?

或者说它已经扩大了？

Or has it just substituted maybe one-for-one with what you might Google for?

或者它只是一对一地取代了你可能在谷歌上找到的东西？

I have several LLM tabs always open, like Anthropic, which is a great service.

我有几个始终打开的 LLM 选项卡，例如 Anthropic，这是一项很棒的服务。

More to come.

未来还会有更多。

It’s going to increase the number of open tabs by four or five in equilibrium.

在平衡状态下，打开的选项卡数量会增加四到五个。

I don’t have access to X yet, their AI service.

我还无法访问他们的人工智能服务 X。

Open source I’ve played around with, but I’m not using it yet on a regular basis, but I will be once there’s open service fine-tuned on what I want it to have read.

我已经尝试过开源，但我还没有定期使用它，但一旦有开放服务，我就会根据我希望它阅读的内容进行微调。

That’s not very far away.

那并不是很远。

So, it’s five more open tabs perpetually.

所以，永远还有五个打开的选项卡。

Do you see it collapsing?

你看到它崩溃了吗？

If you continue to make the analogy with Google, do you see it collapsing into one thing that you’re using?

如果你继续用谷歌做类比，你会发现它会变成你正在使用的东西吗？

You’re mainly using ChatGPT, but you’re experimenting with others.

您主要使用 ChatGPT，但您正在尝试其他。

Do you see that eventually there’s a leader, and you’re just going to whatever that service is?

你是否看到最终会有一个领导者，而你就会去做任何服务？

Or do you think that it’ll persist where you’re going to have —

或者你认为它会持续存在于你将要拥有的地方吗 —

Well, there’s a leader now, but I strongly believe diversity will persist.

好吧，现在有了一位领导者，但我坚信多样性将会持续下去。

For one thing, there’ll be differences in prices, which is not the case at Google.

一方面，价格会有所不同，但谷歌的情况并非如此。

It’s all p=0.

都是p=0。

If you’re in Kenya, you’ll probably want cheaper, free open source, and it may not be as good as what I’m using, but it will make sense for them.

如果你在肯尼亚，你可能会想要更便宜、免费的开源，它可能不如我正在使用的那么好，但这对他们来说是有意义的。

Open source will just allow a lot of diversity of product.

开源只会让产品变得更加多样化。

John Starker asks, “What does he think about Aaron Renn’s reasons for why you don’t come across more Protestant intellectuals?” You made a comment on the Marginal Revolution that you don’t perceive there being these leading Protestant intellectuals like there are in Catholicism, and then Aaron Renn wrote a response.

约翰·斯塔克问道：“对于艾伦·雷恩提出的为什么你没有遇到更多新教知识分子的原因，他有何看法？”您对《边缘革命》发表了评论，称您不认为存在像天主教那样的新教知识分子领袖，然后亚伦·雷恩 (Aaron Renn) 写了回应。

What do you make of it?

你觉得怎么样？

I don’t hang out in Protestant intellectual circles.

我不混迹于新教知识分子圈子。

That’s the main reason why I don’t meet more of them.

这就是我没有见到更多人的主要原因。

I do hang out in Jewish intellectual circles.

我确实在犹太知识分子圈子里闲逛。

Part of it is just called academia.

其中一部分被称为学术界。

Catholic is trickier, but I think there’s something systematizing about Catholic philosophy, where I’m more likely to end up interacting with those people than I would be for the Protestants.

天主教比较棘手，但我认为天主教哲学有一些系统化的东西，与新教徒相比，我最终更有可能与这些人互动。

There’s a lot of Protestant theology.

有很多新教神学。

When I read it, mainly I’m bored.

当我读它的时候，主要是我很无聊。

That’s probably my defect.

这大概就是我的缺陷吧。

I’m more likely to read something in Ptolemist philosophy because it’s closer to other things I know in terms of the way it thinks.

我更有可能阅读托勒密哲学中的一些东西，因为它在思考方式方面更接近我所知道的其他事物。

“What of your favorite things in Sri Lanka changed after your last visit?” Joshua Parikh asked this question.

“自上次访问以来，您最喜欢的斯里兰卡事物发生了哪些变化？”约书亚·帕里克问了这个问题。

You had an old post on Marginal Revolution, I think, actually, maybe from 2013, 10 years ago —

你有一篇关于边际革命的旧帖子，我想，实际上，可能是 2013 年，也就是 10 年前 ——

That’s when I went the first time, yes.

那是我第一次去的时候，是的。

— where you list some of your favorite things in Sri Lanka, but you say you’re not happy with your picks, and you say, “I’ll try better next time.”

— 你列出了斯里兰卡一些你最喜欢的东西，但你说你对你的选择不满意，你说，“下次我会做得更好。”

The architecture of Geoffrey Bawa, especially the hotels, is one of the great glories of the world, and most people haven’t heard of it.

杰弗里·巴瓦的建筑，尤其是酒店，是世界上最伟大的荣耀之一，但大多数人都没有听说过。

You can see so much of it in Sri Lanka.

在斯里兰卡你可以看到很多这样的事情。

I would elevate that over all else.

我会把它提升到高于一切的程度。

I understand the food much better.

我对食物有了更好的理解。

There’s very good Western food in Sri Lanka, which I hadn’t understood on my first visit.

斯里兰卡有很好的西餐，我第一次来的时候不太明白。

Baked goods in particular can just be first-rate.

尤其是烘焙食品，可以说是一流的。

Great.

太棒了。

“Do you want to do more DJ-ing of your favorite songs, like you did with Rick Rubin?” asked Roommate Dave.

“你想像 Rick Rubin 那样对你最喜欢的歌曲进行更多 DJ 表演吗？”室友戴夫问道。

After my CWT with Rick Rubin, he recorded a podcast with me at his place in Italy.

在我与 Rick Rubin 进行 CWT 之后，他在意大利他的住处与我一起录制了一个播客。

That was quite a fun experience.

那是一次非常有趣的经历。

I went to visit him, and he just asked me to DJ for him.

我去拜访他，他只是让我帮他打碟。

I had no prep for this.

我对此毫无准备。

This is intimidating.

这很吓人。

“I’ve got to DJ for Rick Rubin.” We did that, I guess, a total of seven or eight hours.

“我得为 Rick Rubin 做 DJ。”我猜我们总共花了七八个小时。

He turned about two hours of it into one of his podcasts.

他把大约两个小时的内容变成了他的一个播客。

Now, since then, he’s asked me to make a number of playlists for him that will be on a new website he’s building.

现在，从那时起，他要求我为他制作一些播放列表，这些列表将出现在他正在建立的新网站上。

Wow, that’s amazing.

哇，太棒了。

You say it’s a seven- or eight-hour DJ session.

你说这是一场七八小时的 DJ 表演。

Are you literally just sitting in the room playing songs and talking about them for eight hours straight?

你真的只是坐在房间里连续演奏歌曲并谈论它们八个小时吗？

This is over the course of three days.

这已经是三天的时间了。

It’s actually maybe, I don’t know, 10 hours.

我不知道，实际上可能是 10 个小时。

And he’ll play for me, too.

他也会为我打球。

There are breaks, and he has work breaks, I have work breaks.

有休息时间，他有工作休息时间，我也有工作休息时间。

There are meal breaks, but it’s a very intense experience.

虽然有吃饭时间，但这是一次非常紧张的经历。

It is taken very seriously in exactly the right way.

人们以完全正确的方式非常认真地对待它。

Do you think there’s an analogy there to developing taste appreciation for other fields?

您认为这与培养其他领域的品味欣赏有类比吗？

What would be the equivalent of that in even something like economics?

即使在经济学之类的领域，与此相当的是什么？

Is that just a seminar?

这只是一个研讨会吗？

You could have a group of three to five people read the same piece and talk about it.

您可以让三到五个人阅读同一篇文章并进行讨论。

We do that at George Mason pretty often, like with Alex Tabarrok, Robin Hanson, Brian Kaplan, Garett Jones.

我们在乔治梅森大学经常这样做，比如亚历克斯·塔巴罗克（Alex Tabarrok）、罗宾·汉森（Robin Hanson）、布莱恩·卡普兰（Brian Kaplan）、加雷特·琼斯（Garet Jones）。

I recommend that.

我建议这样做。

Academics don’t do it enough.

学术界做得还不够。

There’s somehow no space for it.

不知何故没有空间。

You learn more that way than for most seminars.

通过这种方式你可以学到比大多数研讨会更多的知识。

Eric Silver asks, “Will there be more clustered shows as with the three Tatu City episodes?” I’ll broaden that to say, do you think you’ll experiment more with format or guest ideas?

埃里克·西尔弗问道：“是否会有更多像塔图城三集那样的集群节目？”我会扩展说，你认为你会在格式或嘉宾想法上进行更多尝试吗？

We also have the Jerusalem Demsas book club —

我们还有耶路撒冷德姆萨斯读书俱乐部 ——

Where we just read books and talked about those three books.

我们只是读书并讨论那三本书。

We had, what, three big experiments this year.

今年我们进行了三个大型实验。

One is the GPT episode.

其中之一是 GPT 事件。

The other is the Kenyan trilogy — the two Kenyans, I had never met before, and nothing to read by them.

另一个是肯尼亚三部曲——两个肯尼亚人，我以前从未见过，他们也没什么可读的。

Then, with Jerusalem Demsas, doing the books.

然后，和耶路撒冷德姆萨斯一起写书。

I want to experiment more, and I’m looking for ideas.

我想尝试更多，我正在寻找想法。

So, ideas are welcome.

因此，欢迎提出想法。

Tom Mong asks, “Given his interest in cultural dynamics, it could be intriguing to discuss how he sees cultural shifts affecting global economics and politics, particularly in relation to the rise of virtual communities and remote work.” He’s thinking about digital nomad groups, educational communities centered around, say, YouTube channels.

Tom Mong asks, “Given his interest in cultural dynamics, it could be intriguing to discuss how he sees cultural shifts affecting global economics and politics, particularly in relation to the rise of virtual communities and remote work.”他正在考虑数字游牧团体、以 YouTube 频道等为中心的教育社区。

You could think of Vitalik’s Zuzalu, a three-month conference in Montenegro, as an example of this.

您可以将 Vitalik 在黑山举行的为期三个月的 Zuzalu 会议视为一个例子。

What do you think?

你怎么认为？

I think there’ll be much more of that.

我认为还会有更多这样的事情。

I’m going to visit one of those groups in January in Honduras — Próspera.

我将于一月份去洪都拉斯拜访其中一个团体——普罗斯佩拉 (Próspera)。

They’re running a two-month experiment.

他们正在进行为期两个月的实验。

It’s called Vitalia.

它的名字叫维塔利亚。

One of the integrating themes is, people going there are interested in life extension.

整合的主题之一是，去那里的人们对延长寿命感兴趣。

I don’t know very much about it at the moment.

目前我对此了解不多。

I would be going there anyway, but I’m very curious to see it and interact with it and try to learn something.

无论如何我都会去那里，但我很好奇看到它并与之互动并尝试学习一些东西。

Wham Mo asks, “What guest appearances on other podcasts have been your favorite this year?”

Wham Mo 问道：“今年你最喜欢在其他播客中客串哪些节目？”

When I was on Rick Rubin’s.

当我在里克·鲁宾的时候。

That would, by far, be my favorite, yes.

是的，到目前为止，这将是我最喜欢的。

Yes, I would encourage everyone to check that out.

是的，我鼓励大家都去看看。

There are two.

有两个。

There’s an interview with you, and actually, it ends up being one where you talk a lot about yourself, more of your personal bio.

有一次对你的采访，实际上，最终你会谈论很多关于你自己的事情，更多的是你的个人简历。

But then the DJ session is great as well and turned me on to some new tracks and artists that I had never heard of.

但 DJ 表演也很棒，让我接触到了一些我从未听说过的新曲目和艺术家。

That was great.

那很棒。

If you haven’t listened to those, jump on that.

如果您还没有听过这些内容，请继续听。

I did many other podcasts this year.

今年我做了很多其他播客。

They tend to blur together in my mind.

它们在我的脑海中往往模糊在一起。

I don’t even know anymore which are the favorites.

我什至不知道哪些是最喜欢的。

I don’t listen to them afterwards.

后来我就不听他们的了。

Unlike with CWT, I don’t read through a transcript afterwards.

与 CWT 不同的是，我事后不会通读文字记录。

Some of them are good, is what I’ll say.

其中一些是好的，这就是我要说的。

Jeppe Johansen says — I’m going to summarize this one, but he’s pointing out that when you look at the GOATs in different fields, you point to the Beatles, Bach, Homer, Shakespeare.

Jeppe Johansen says — I’m going to summarize this one, but he’s pointing out that when you look at the GOATs in different fields, you point to the Beatles, Bach, Homer, Shakespeare.

Is there a bias there, in that it feels like we look more to older figures as GOATs?

这是否存在偏见，因为我们感觉我们更多地把较老的人物视为山羊？

Is Shakespeare really the best writer or the best playwright?

莎士比亚真的是最好的作家或最好的剧作家吗？

Yes, he’s the best, but it’s going to be older by its nature.

是的，他是最好的，但本质上他会变老。

It doesn’t mean modernity is collapsing.

这并不意味着现代性正在崩溃。

If someone did something amazing two years ago, say in gaming, it just won’t be called GOAT yet.

如果有人在两年前做了一些令人惊叹的事情，比如在游戏领域，那么它还不会被称为“山羊”。

You’ll even wonder, maybe it’ll be surpassed next year, just like, say, the Beatles surpassed the Rolling Stones.

你甚至会想，也许明年就会被超越，就像披头士乐队超越滚石乐队一样。

Things that qualify for GOAT — they’re not going to be that new, but we’re generating GOAT-like outputs all the time.

符合 GOAT 资格的事物——它们不会那么新鲜，但我们一直在生成类似 GOAT 的输出。

We just don’t know yet which are the most wonderful in their areas.

我们只是还不知道哪些是他们所在领域最精彩的。

All right, let’s switch gears and go to a version of GOAT.

好吧，让我们换个话题，看看 GOAT 的版本。

These are your pop culture picks from 2013.

这些是您精选的 2013 年流行文化。

You do a year-end list on Marginal Revolution.

你做了一份关于边际革命的年终清单。

I’ve gone back to 2013, and here are your picks.

我回到了 2013 年，以下是你的选择。

Favorite music — you say these are favorites from a radically incomplete sampling, not a best-of list, which I don’t know that you usually put that qualification on there, but you did this time.

Favorite music — you say these are favorites from a radically incomplete sampling, not a best-of list, which I don’t know that you usually put that qualification on there, but you did this time.

Let’s run through them.

让我们来看看它们。

Kanye West, Yeezus — his best album by quite a bit.

Kanye West 的《Yeezus》——他最好的专辑。

It’s a very, very good album.

这是一张非常非常好的专辑。

I’m no longer sure it’s his best, but it’s held up very well.

我不再确定这是他最好的，但它保持得很好。

Kanye himself is a more problematic matter, but people still listen to it, and they should.

坎耶本人是一个比较有问题的事情，但人们仍然会听，而且他们应该听。

MBV by My Bloody Valentine.

我的血腥情人节的MBV。

You say if you had to ask who did better after a 20-year hiatus, Kevin Shields or Bobby Fischer, this is decisive evidence in favor of Shields.

你说，如果你不得不问凯文·希尔兹和鲍比·费舍尔在 20 年后谁的表现更好，那么这是有利于希尔兹的决定性证据。

A totally unexpected renaissance.

完全出乎意料的复兴。

Strongly agree.

强烈同意。

It’s still a very good album.

这仍然是一张非常好的专辑。

Acid Rap by Chance the Rapper.

Chance the Rapper 的 Acid Rap。

I don’t listen to rap much anymore.

我不再听说唱了。

I’m not sure why not.

我不知道为什么不。

It’s very innovative and there’s a lot of high-quality work, but somehow it strikes me as being in a rut, and a lot of it doesn’t stick with me.

It’s very innovative and there’s a lot of high-quality work, but somehow it strikes me as being in a rut, and a lot of it doesn’t stick with me.

Chance is very good, but I don’t listen to it these days.

机会很好，但我这些天不听了。

I don’t regret picking it, but yes.

我不后悔选择它，但是是的。

Wed 21 by Juana Molina.

21 日星期三，作者：胡安娜·莫利纳。

You say, “Why isn’t she better known?”

你说：“为什么她不更出名呢？”

She’s from Argentina.

她来自阿根廷。

She does a mix of pop and avant-garde.

她将流行音乐与前卫音乐融为一体。

She’s coming to Barns at Wolf Trap on my teaching night.

在我的教学之夜，她要来狼陷阱的谷仓。

I’m sad to miss her.

我很难过想念她。

I still think about her and her music.

我仍然想着她和她的音乐。

Yes, strongly agree, held up well.

是的，非常同意，坚持得很好。

MATANGI by M.I.A.

M.I.A. 的 MATAGI

You say, “Her first album had enough posturing that I figured that was it, but by now she has compiled an impressive streak.”

你说，“她的第一张专辑有足够的姿态，我认为就是这样，但现在她已经取得了令人印象深刻的连胜。”

The streak ended; she stopped.

连胜结束；她停了下来。

She was an incredible talent.

她是一位令人难以置信的天才。

It may have been family obligations, I’m not sure, but she is not a part of my musical life in terms of new output.

我不确定，这可能是家庭义务，但就新作品而言，她并不是我音乐生活的一部分。

But again, quality on the older work has held up.

但同样，旧作品的质量仍然保持不变。

Lastly, you say, “I’m also starting to like Chvrches, The Bones of What You Believe.

最后，你说：“我也开始喜欢《Chvrches》，《你信仰的骨头》。

My favorite jazz album of the year has been Charles Lloyd and Jason Moran, Hagar’s Song.

我今年最喜欢的爵士乐专辑是 Charles Lloyd 和 Jason Moran 的《Hagar’s Song》。

I have more on order.”

我还有更多订单。”

Charles Lloyd had an incredible renaissance.

查尔斯·劳埃德经历了令人难以置信的复兴。

Not that he really ever stopped at quite an old age.

并不是说他真的在年纪很大的时候就停下来了。

You would think playing the saxophone is hard to do when you’re very old, but his last few albums were some of his best.

你可能会认为当你很老的时候演奏萨克斯管是很难的，但他最后的几张专辑是他最好的专辑之一。

Some of the best jazz, period.

一些最好的爵士乐，时期。

Favorite movies.

最喜欢的电影。

At the end of the year, in resonance, maybe, with 2023, the movie Her came out, and you were a big fan of it.

年底的时候，引起共鸣，也许到了2023年，电影《她》上映了，你是它的忠实粉丝。

It came out after you released your best-of, but that movie, I think, has held up really well, and people are returning to it now because it feels like it got some things right.

It came out after you released your best-of, but that movie, I think, has held up really well, and people are returning to it now because it feels like it got some things right.

One is just the natural feel of how it’s already possible now to chat with an AI and for it to feel very seamless.

其中之一就是现在已经可以与人工智能聊天的自然感觉，并且感觉非常无缝。

It will go down as one of the great movies of its time, like Frankenstein or City Lights or Gone with the Wind.

它将成为那个时代最伟大的电影之一，就像《弗兰肯斯坦》、《城市之光》或《乱世佳人》一样。

Total clear winner.

完全明确的获胜者。

Relatedly, you did a review of Google Glass in 2013.

与此相关的是，您在 2013 年对 Google Glass 进行了评论。

Thinking about Google Glass, you were not a fan of it.

想想谷歌眼镜，你就不是它的粉丝。

I think you found it just hard to use.

我认为您发现它很难使用。

I will try out the pin.

我会尝试一下引脚。

The thing I’m most bullish about is the Meta glasses.

我最看好的就是Meta眼镜。

They’re not out yet.

他们还没出来。

I believe they’ll be priced below $200, and they’ll be what Google Glass was trying to be, except now we have all the tech.

我相信它们的价格将低于 200 美元，而且它们将成为 Google Glass 想要的样子，只不过现在我们拥有了所有的技术。

I was very sympathetic to the idea of Google Glass.

我非常赞同谷歌眼镜的想法。

I give Google a lot of credit.

我非常信任谷歌。

I don’t think it worked, and the market agreed with me, but that was step one.

我认为这不起作用，市场也同意我的观点，但这只是第一步。

With LLMs being so much better, we’re ready for a step that people are going to want to use.

随着法学硕士变得越来越好，我们已经准备好采取人们想要使用的步骤。

All right, let’s go through the favorite movies.

好吧，让我们回顾一下最喜欢的电影。

You have a lot of favorite movies.

你有很多喜欢的电影。

You say, “It’s been an excellent year for movies.

你说：“对于电影来说，这是很棒的一年。

I can’t remember a period so good.” This is after 2012 when you were like, it’s good but a lot of tentpole studio stuff.

我不记得有这么美好的一段时光了。”这是 2012 年之后的事情，当时你会想，这很好，但有很多主力工作室的东西。

Let’s run through these.

让我们来看看这些。

Not all of these released in 2013.

并非所有这些都是 2013 年发布的。

But it’s when I saw it.

但当我看到它的时候。

That’s how I organized them.

我就是这样组织它们的。

Amour by Michael Haneke.

迈克尔·哈内克的《爱情》。

Very dramatic, very European.

非常戏剧化，非常欧洲化。

I don’t like a lot of his movies.

他的很多电影我都不喜欢。

They’re too negative, but that’s a good one.

他们太消极了，但这是一件好事。

The Chilean movie No, which is an account of how, even in the strangest of circumstances, democracies filter policy outcomes — as indeed, autocracies do too, in different ways.

The Chilean movie No, which is an account of how, even in the strangest of circumstances, democracies filter policy outcomes — as indeed, autocracies do too, in different ways.

One of the best movies about elections, politics, and public choice.

关于选举、政治和公共选择的最佳电影之一。

Strong plus.

强加。

Spring Breakers.

放浪青春。

That was just fun.

那很有趣。

That movie has really stuck.

那部电影真的很卡。

It’s an easy movie to hate or make fun of, but it’s full of energy.

这是一部很容易让人讨厌或取笑的电影，但它充满活力。

It’s cinematic in every shot.

每个镜头都充满电影感。

I thought it was great and still do.

我认为这很棒，现在仍然如此。

The Gatekeepers, a documentary.

纪录片《守门人》。

You taught it in a Law and Literature class.

你在法律和文学课上教过它。

It’s about six former heads of Israel’s secret service agency discussing their successes and failures in the Six Day War in 1967.

该剧讲述了以色列特工机构的六位前负责人讨论他们在 1967 年六日战争中的成功和失败的故事。

We all should watch that one again, right?

我们都应该再看一遍，对吧？

Excellent film.

优秀的电影。

Another resonance with 2013 is, you were actually in Israel in December.

与 2013 年的另一个共鸣是，12 月你实际上在以色列。

You were writing a lot of posts about Israel.

您写了很多关于以色列的帖子。

That was another resonance with me when I was reviewing it.

当我回顾它时，这是我的另一个共鸣。

I think you were also doing a dive more into Israel at the time, as you were wont to do.

我认为您当时也像往常一样更深入地了解了以色列。

It’s about these people who think there are all these secret hidden meanings in The Shining.

这是关于那些认为《闪灵》中隐藏着所有这些秘密含义的人。

It’s a hilarious film.

这是一部搞笑的电影。

More people should watch it.

应该让更多人关注。

I’m surprised it hasn’t become better known because Strauss has become much better known and more widely discussed.

我很惊讶它并没有因为施特劳斯变得更加出名和更广泛的讨论而变得更加出名。

I would recommend that.

我会推荐这个。

Room 237 — that’s the title, right?

237号房间 —— 这就是标题吧？

Yes.

是的。

Oblivion, Tom Cruise movie directed by Joseph Kosinski, who went on to direct Tom Cruise in Top Gun Maverick which was one of the biggest movies of last year.

Oblivion, Tom Cruise movie directed by Joseph Kosinski, who went on to direct Tom Cruise in Top Gun Maverick which was one of the biggest movies of last year.

Maybe it’s a bad sign that I don’t remember, but which one is Oblivion?

也许我不记得了这是一个坏兆头，但是哪一个是湮灭？

I’ve never seen it, but a lot of people remark on Oblivion as being a visually spectacular movie.

我从未看过它，但很多人都认为《遗落战境》是一部视觉上壮观的电影。

That’s actually what you say.

这实际上就是你说的。

I’m quoting you.

我引用你的话。

“It’s one of the most visually spectacular movies I’ve seen.

“这是我看过的视觉效果最壮观的电影之一。

The first half is a very good movie in its own right.

前半部分本身就是一部非常好的电影。

The second half is mostly narcissistic trash, only periodically compelling, in which Cruise also rewrites the story of his breakup with Nicole Kidman.”

The second half is mostly narcissistic trash, only periodically compelling, in which Cruise also rewrites the story of his breakup with Nicole Kidman.”

There you go.

就这样吧。

I must have been right.

我一定是对的。

It’s been one that I have meant to check out for its visual style.

我本来想看看它的视觉风格。

You might need a big screen, though.

不过，您可能需要一个大屏幕。

Yes.

是的。

Next on the list, Stories We Tell by Sarah Polley.

名单上的下一个是莎拉·波利的《我们讲述的故事》。

She’s an incredible filmmaker.

她是一位令人难以置信的电影制片人。

The very recent one about Women Talking, I couldn’t stick with.

最近一篇关于女性谈话的文章，我无法坚持下去。

I was a big fan of it, actually.

事实上，我是它的忠实粉丝。

I like the idea of it.

我喜欢这个主意。

Away from Her also is another amazing Polley movie.

《远离她》也是波利的另一部精彩电影。

I’m glad to see she’s gotten the recognition she deserves.

我很高兴看到她得到了应有的认可。

Stories We Tell is a very unique documentary.

我们讲述的故事是一部非常独特的纪录片。

It’s about the stories we tell, and it relates to her life and upbringing, and it’s a very well done and crafted documentary.

这是关于我们讲述的故事，与她的生活和成长有关，这是一部制作精良的纪录片。

I highly recommend it as well.

我也强烈推荐它。

She will still do great things, I think.

我想她仍然会做出伟大的事情。

Before Midnight, “completes the trilogy realistically with charm and bite.”

在午夜之前，“以魅力和咬合现实地完成了三部曲。”

People love that trilogy.

人们喜欢那部三部曲。

Again, it will go down as a classic achievement of the age.

它将再次成为这个时代的经典成就。

Maybe it’s too poppy or too popular or too clichéd, but it does cliché in just the right way, and it’s a bit self-mocking.

也许它太流行、太流行或太陈词滥调，但它以正确的方式确实陈词滥调，而且有点自嘲。

I think those are great.

我认为这些都很棒。

I think they’ll age well.

我认为他们会老得很好。

I am a fan of the trilogy.

我是三部曲的粉丝。

I think they will age well.

我认为他们会很好地变老。

Tell me something.

告诉我一些事情。

It’s a comedy about voiceover artists.

这是一部关于配音艺术家的喜剧。

Oh, that was very good, yes.

哦，那非常好，是的。

I like movies about how things are done, how things are made.

我喜欢关于事情是如何完成、事情是如何制造的电影。

Something very CWT about it.

一些非常CWT的东西。

More people should watch it, yes.

应该让更多人观看，是的。

By the way, another random question for me: What is an intellectual romance or gossip book?

顺便问一下我另一个随机问题：什么是知性言情书或八卦书？

What does that mean to you?

这对你来说意味着什么？

There’s a number of recent books about early 20th-century intellectuals and their love lives.

最近有很多关于 20 世纪早期知识分子及其爱情生活的书籍。

I reviewed them on MR. Those were just fun, and you don’t have to read all of it.

I reviewed them on MR.这些都很有趣，你不必阅读全部内容。

You can just pick out figures you’re interested in.

您只需挑选您感兴趣的数字即可。

There’s one of them — it’s about what different top central European thinkers were doing, often with their love lives, right before World War I broke out.

There’s one of them — it’s about what different top central European thinkers were doing, often with their love lives, right before World War I broke out.

This is a very Tyler book.

这是一本非常泰勒的书。

I don’t know if you’ve invented a new genre there, but the reason this came up is, you spoke positively of a book called Lives of the Wives: Five Literary Marriages.

I don’t know if you’ve invented a new genre there, but the reason this came up is, you spoke positively of a book called Lives of the Wives: Five Literary Marriages.

Oh yes, that’s a good example.

哦，是的，这是一个很好的例子。

Yes.

是的。

That’s from this year.

That’s from this year.

I don’t remember it well.

我记不太清楚了。

I know I liked it, must have been good.

我知道我喜欢它，一定很好。

With a lot of history of communism, I feel a bit too much “I know this story,” and a lot of things haven’t stuck with me.

了解了很多共产主义历史，我感觉有点太多“我知道这个故事”，很多事情都没有让我印象深刻。

Maybe that’s me oversimplifying, but I’m not going back to that topic very much.

也许这是我过于简单化了，但我不会太多地回到这个话题。

Pieta, a beautiful Korean tale involving money lenders and nonprice compensation schemes.

Pieta，一个美丽的韩国故事，涉及放债人和非价格补偿计划。

Korean movies for almost a 20-year period are just some of the best in the world.

近20年来，韩国电影一直是世界上最好的电影之一。

The ones that are known at all are quite good at a success rate of about 90 percent.

已知的都相当不错，成功率在90%左右。

In Another Country is another pick, Korean and French juxtaposed.

《另一个国家》是另一个选择，韩国语和法语并列。

World War Z you say was surprised how serious and deeply politically incorrect it is, including on third-rail issues such as immigration, ethnic conflict, songs of peace, the Middle East.

World War Z you say was surprised how serious and deeply politically incorrect it is, including on third-rail issues such as immigration, ethnic conflict, songs of peace, the Middle East.

You also mentioned The Attack, Lebanese and Israeli in its sources.

您还在其来源中提到了《袭击》、黎巴嫩和以色列。

That’s an incredible film, The Attack.

这是一部令人难以置信的电影，《攻击》。

The Z one — I don’t know if watching it would hold up well, but part of it is this story about killers scaling a fence, and we should rewatch it and see.

Z one —— 我不知道看它是否能坚持下去，但其中一部分是关于杀手翻过栅栏的故事，我们应该重新观看并看看。

The film was willing to take chances.

这部电影愿意冒险。

I suspect a lot of it doesn’t hold up, but fundamentally creative, and I’m for that kind of effort.

我怀疑其中很多内容都站不住脚，但从根本上讲是有创意的，我支持这种努力。

The Act of Killing, a documentary with interviews with Indonesian gangsters and murderers from the ’65 pogroms.

《杀戮行为》是一部纪录片，采访了 65 年大屠杀中的印度尼西亚黑帮和凶手。

Saturday night, I was talking to the cellist in the Jack Quartet about this movie, The Act of Killing.

星期六晚上，我和杰克四重奏中的大提琴家谈论了这部电影《杀戮的行为》。

He and I both agree it’s just phenomenal, one of the best movies, just flat-out, of its time.

他和我都认为这真是太棒了，是那个时代最好的电影之一。

Happy People: A Year in the Taiga depicts the life of the people in the isolated village of Bakhtia in the eastern Siberian taiga.

快乐的人们：针叶林的一年描绘了西伯利亚东部针叶林偏僻村庄巴赫蒂亚人民的生活。

Hasn’t stuck with me.

没有坚持住我。

You end the list with three Hollywood picks: Gravity directed by Alfonso Cuarón, Captain Phillips, and 12 Years a Slave.

最后是三部好莱坞精选影片：阿方索·卡隆执导的《地心引力》、《菲利普斯船长》和《为奴十二年》。

We should try to get Cuarón on the show — remember that.

我们应该努力让卡隆参加演出 ——记住这一点。

Captain Phillips, Tom Hanks, Somali pirate, based on a true story.

菲利普斯船长、汤姆·汉克斯、索马里海盗，根据真实故事改编。

It would bore me now.

It would bore me now.

It’s a well-done Hollywood movie.

这是一部制作精良的好莱坞电影。

I’m fine with that.

我对此很满意。

The reason that movie has stuck — I think it’s lived on in YouTube fame for the clip where Tom Hanks depicts going into shock.

这部电影经久不衰的原因是——我认为它因汤姆·汉克斯描述的震惊的片段而在 YouTube 上名声大噪。

It’s in the final minutes of the movie.

这是在电影的最后几分钟。

He very realistically portrays what it’s like to go through shock as he’s being treated.

他非常真实地描绘了他在接受治疗时经历震惊的感觉。

It’s just this really surprising punch right at the end of the movie where he’s just breaking down as he’s being treated.

这真是令人惊讶的一击，就在电影的结尾，他在接受治疗时崩溃了。

Yes.

是的。

For a lot of people, I think that’s why Tom Hanks is still a top contender for GOAT in terms of actors today — because just the skill of being able to go through this range of emotions and portray it so realistically, he gets all these little nuances of it exactly right.

对于很多人来说，我认为这就是为什么汤姆·汉克斯仍然是当今演员方面的最佳演员的顶级竞争者——因为正是因为他能够经历这种情感范围并如此真实地描绘它，所以他才能准确地捕捉到所有这些细微差别。

I watch him on YouTube all the time.

我一直在 YouTube 上看他。

I don’t know why, but it comes up for me all the time.

我不知道为什么，但它总是出现在我身上。

Like, “I’m going to watch Tom Hanks go through shock again.”

就像，“我将看到汤姆·汉克斯再次经历震惊。”

Who is the GOAT of actors?

谁是演员中的GOAT？

Cary Grant, Jimmy Stewart, Harrison Ford, Clint Eastwood?

加里·格兰特、吉米·斯图尔特、哈里森·福特、克林特·伊斯特伍德？

I’m very biased.

I’m very biased.

For me, I don’t watch enough old movies that I could give you a pick for older, and the style has changed so much.

对我来说，我看的老电影还不够多，所以我不能给你选更老的电影，而且风格已经发生了很大的变化。

I think if you were looking for criteria, they would have to have critical success, commercial success, longevity.

我认为如果你要寻找标准，他们必须取得关键的成功、商业上的成功、长寿。

How about Tom Cruise, the Kubrick Eyes Wide Shut?

《库布里克大开眼戒》汤姆·克鲁斯怎么样？

He’s amazing in that.

He’s amazing in that.

Tom Cruise is absolutely a contender.

汤姆·克鲁斯绝对是一个竞争者。

I’ll say Tom Cruise off the top of my head.

我会脱口而出汤姆·克鲁斯。

He’s worked with top directors.

他曾与顶级导演合作过。

He has been in critically adored films.

他曾出演过广受好评的电影。

Now he’s in a phase where he’s doing shooting-for-the-moon blockbusters with physical stunt work, and that could be another dimension of it, the physical demands of the role.

现在，他正处于拍摄登月大片和体能特技​​工作的阶段，这可能是它的另一个维度，即角色的身体要求。

Absolutely a contender for GOAT.

绝对是 GOAT 的有力竞争者。

I called Knausgaard early, even the earlier book about the angels.

我很早就给克瑙斯加德打了电话，甚至是早期关于天使的书。

I basically said, “This guy is going to be great.” I feel very good about that one.

我基本上是说，“这家伙会很棒。”我对此感觉非常好。

He, of course, has been a guest in one of my most favorite episodes.

当然，他是我最喜欢的剧集之一的嘉宾。

Yes, that’s an underrated pick from years past.

是的，这是过去几年被低估的选择。

Claire Messud, The Woman Upstairs.

克莱尔·梅苏德，《楼上的女人》。

She’s done good things since then.

从那时起她就做了好事。

Good pick on my part.

Good pick on my part.

Amy Sackville, Orkney.

Amy Sackville, Orkney.

I love the Orkney Islands.

我爱奥克尼群岛。

That made that one work for me.

这使得那个对我有用。

I’m not sure everyone should read it.

我不确定每个人都应该阅读它。

Mohsin Hamid, How to Get Filthy Rich in Rising Asia.

莫辛·哈米德（Mohsin Hamid），《如何在崛起的亚洲致富》。

That’s one of these fun books you read on a plane.

这是您在飞机上阅读的其中一本有趣的书。

It’s good for that.

It’s good for that.

I don’t think you need to read it now.

我认为你现在不需要阅读它。

Kathryn Davis, Duplex.

凯瑟琳·戴维斯，复式。

Her work is very deep.

Her work is very deep.

It seems to have slipped a bit out of people’s attention, but people who like very serious fiction should take a look at her.

似乎有点淡出了人们的视线，但喜欢严肃小说的人应该看看她。

All right, favorite nonfiction.

好吧，最喜欢的非小说类作品。

Quite a lot here.

Quite a lot here.

Why don’t I just run through them, and you stop me if you want to say anything.

我为什么不直接浏览它们，如果你想说什么，你就阻止我。

Jeremy Adelman, Worldly Philosopher: The Odyssey of Albert O.

杰里米·阿德尔曼，世俗哲学家：阿尔伯特·奥德赛

Hirschman.

Hirschman.

Obviously a great book.

显然是一本很棒的书。

Self-recommending, as they say.

正如他们所说，自我推荐。

As they say.

正如他们所说。

Daniel Brook, A History of Future Cities.

丹尼尔·布鲁克，《未来城市的历史》。

Lawrence Wright, Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood, and the Prison of Belief.

劳伦斯·赖特，《澄清：山达基教、好莱坞和信仰监狱》。

That’s a very of-its-moment pick.

这是一个非常当下的选择。

I liked Neil Powell, Benjamin Britten: A Life for Music.

我喜欢尼尔·鲍威尔的《本杰明·布里顿：音乐的一生》。

Self-recommending.

Self-recommending.

A couple of books on Benjamin Britten.

几本关于本杰明·布里顿的书。

M.E.

M.E.

Thomas, Confessions of a Sociopath.

托马斯，《一个反社会者的自白》。

Rana Mitter, China’s War with Japan, 1937–1945.

拉纳·米特（Rana Mitter），《中日战争，1937-1945》。

It’s called in the US, Forgotten Ally.

它在美国被称为“被遗忘的盟友”。

Confessions of a Sociopath, people should still read.

一个反社会者的自白，人们仍然应该阅读。

Sociopaths are underrated, I think, is a key point of that one.

我认为，反社会人格者被低估是其中的一个关键点。

I’m serious.

我是认真的。

Please elaborate.

请详细说明。

They can be problematic.

They can be problematic.

The notion that they can be super smart, high-achieving people — people are beginning to learn this, and her book is one of the best statements of how you could think more deeply about sociopaths.

他们可以成为超级聪明、取得高成就的人，人们已经开始了解这一点，而她的书是如何更深入地思考反社会人格者的最佳陈述之一。

They’re not psychopaths, to be clear, right?

需要明确的是，他们不是精神病患者，对吧？

Right.

正确的。

Are you willing to bite the bullet on this idea that a lot of things that might be considered mental disorders of one form or another are more about just cognitive diversity?

您是否愿意接受这样一种观点：许多可能被视为某种形式的精神障碍的事情更多地与认知多样性有关？

If there are specific problems or behaviors, that’s one thing.

如果存在特定的问题或行为，那是一回事。

But in general, maybe we should be more open to —

但总的来说，也许我们应该更加开放地对待——

You toss me that bullet, I’ll bite it.

你把子弹扔给我，我就咬住它。

I’ll swallow it.

I’ll swallow it.

Okay, moving on.

好的，继续。

Emile Simpson, War from the Ground Up: Twenty-First Century Combat as Politics.

埃米尔·辛普森，《从头开始的战争：二十一世纪的政治战争》。

Hasn’t stuck with me.

没有坚持住我。

William Haseltine, Affordable Excellence: The Singapore Healthcare Story.

William Haseltine，负担得起的卓越：新加坡医疗保健故事。

Self-recommending.

Self-recommending.

Clare Jacobson, New Museums in China.

克莱尔·雅各布森，《中国新博物馆》。

It’s mostly a picture book.

这主要是一本图画书。

A lot of them are still empty, but the construction boom there and how the Chinese state tried to use aesthetics — that book has very important lessons, and we should all think about that more.

其中很多仍然是空的，但是那里的建设热潮以及中国政府如何尝试运用美学——那本书有非常重要的教训，我们都应该更多地思考。

Mark Lawrence Schrad, Vodka Politics: Alcohol, Autocracy, and the Secret History of the Russian State.

马克·劳伦斯·施拉德，《伏特加政治：酒精、独裁和俄罗斯国家秘史》。

The roles of alcohol and drugs in war, people are starting to pay attention to.

酒精和毒品在战争中的作用，人们开始关注。

That book was an early move in that direction, way ahead of its time.

那本书是朝这个方向迈出的早期一步，远远领先于时代。

I would say a very good pick by me.

我想说这是我的一个非常好的选择。

I feel like you were tweeting someone else or linking to a piece that was making that point just recently, about if you don’t engage with the role of alcohol, particularly with Russia, you’re missing a fundamental component of the dynamics there.

我觉得你在推特上发了别人的推文，或者链接到了最近发表的一篇文章，内容是如果你不参与酒精的作用，特别是在俄罗斯，你就错过了那里动态的一个基本组成部分。

And how many of the Nazis were on speed or some version thereof?

有多少纳粹分子处于高速状态或某种速度状态？

Paul Sabin, The Bet: Paul Ehrlich, Julian Simon, and Our Gamble over Earth’s Future.

保罗·萨宾，《赌注：保罗·埃利希、朱利安·西蒙和我们对地球未来的赌博》。

In any given year, it changes who is looking better in that bet.

在任何一年中，谁在赌注中看起来更好都会改变。

The funny thing I’ve realized is that Ehrlich’s, in a funny way, is the more optimistic prognosis, that rising resource prices is a sign that AI is working.

我意识到的有趣的事情是，以一种有趣的方式，埃利希的预测是更乐观的，即资源价格上涨是人工智能正在发挥作用的标志。

I think the price of energy is going to go up a lot because people will need to compute, and they’ll be building all these new projects, and that’s a good thing.

我认为能源价格将会上涨很多，因为人们需要计算，他们将建设所有这些新项目，这是一件好事。

So, in a funny way, the Simon side is pessimistic.

所以，有趣的是，西蒙方面是悲观的。

Charles Moore, Margaret Thatcher, biography.

查尔斯·摩尔，玛格丽特·撒切尔，传记。

That’s an incredibly detailed and thoughtful piece of work.

这是一项非常详细和深思熟虑的工作。

There are several volumes.

有几卷。

Just amazing.

太棒了。

More detail than most people need to know.

比大多数人需要知道的更多细节。

I don’t think I’ll read them all, but you’ve got to give that one an A+.

我想我不会全部读完，但你必须给其中一本 A+。

From books you say close at hand, you very much liked The Power of Glamour by John List, Yuri Oganessian, Virginia Postrel; Lant Pritchett, The Rebirth of Education; and Tim Harford’s The Undercover Economist Strikes Back was the book in 2013.

从你所说的近在眼前的书来看，你非常喜欢约翰·李斯特、尤里·奥加内西安、维吉尼亚·波斯特雷尔的《魅力的力量》；兰特·普里切特，《教育的重生》；蒂姆·哈福德 (Tim Harford) 于 2013 年出版了《卧底经济学家的反击》(The Undercover Economist Strikes Back)。

I know all those people.

我认识所有这些人。

They’re great; they’re just obvious picks.

他们很棒；他们只是显而易见的选择。

Everything they do is quality and interesting, and Tim has been on the show.

他们所做的一切都是优质且有趣的，蒂姆也一直在节目中。

Another past CWT guest.

另一位过去的 CWT 嘉宾。

The Studwell book has become seminal, and I’m happy I had a role in its spread.

斯塔德韦尔的书已经成为具有影响力的书，我很高兴我在它的传播中发挥了作用。

It’s the book a lot of people go to to understand Asia, and I feel I was early to that.

很多人都通过这本书来了解亚洲，我觉得我很早就开始了解亚洲了。

Let me go back.

让我回去吧。

It was Days of Fire: Bush and Cheney in the White House and Taylor, The Internal Enemy: Slavery and War in Virginia.

这是《战火连天：布什和切尼在白宫》和泰勒的《内部敌人：弗吉尼亚的奴隶制和战争》。

The Taylor, yes.

泰勒，是的。

The Days of Fire — I am tired of all that stuff, so people don’t talk about that time so much anymore, which is interesting.

烈火之日 — 我厌倦了所有这些事情，所以人们不再谈论那段时光了，这很有趣。

But overall, I think my 2013 recommendations might have been my best year ever of recommendations because so many of them turned out so well.

但总的来说，我认为我 2013 年的推荐可能是我有史以来最好的推荐一年，因为其中很多都效果很好。

That is all of your pop culture picks that I could find from 2013.

这就是我能找到的 2013 年所有流行文化精选。

I’m glad to hear your assessment is positive.

我很高兴听到您的评价是积极的。

But it means I’ve gotten worse, so we’ll see.

但这意味着我变得更糟了，所以我们拭目以待。

We’re catching up to the era in which I actually knew you and we’d been working together.

我们正在赶上我真正认识你并且我们一直一起工作的时代。

This year was a year in which I feel like, especially in movies, I watched a lot of the movies, either coincidentally or on your recommendation.

今年是我感觉特别是电影方面的一年，我看了很多电影，或者是巧合，或者是在你的推荐下。

So I felt a little more up-to-date in some ways with your recommendations this year compared to previous years, but quite a few, as well, I think, an uncommonly large amount of recommendations from this year.

因此，与往年相比，我觉得今年你们的建议在某些方面更符合最新情况，但我认为今年的建议数量也异常多。

He strengthened something I’ve been feeling for a while, which is that it’s very difficult to get true geographic diversity in your winners.

他强化了我一段时间以来的感受，那就是很难在获奖者中获得真正的地域多样性。

Maybe where they’re from, you can do, but where they live now.

也许他们来自哪里，你可以做，但他们现在住在哪里。

He is in central Tennessee, as he takes pains to emphasize.

正如他煞费苦心地强调的那样，他位于田纳西州中部。

I don’t think I’ve ever gotten an application, much less a winner, from central Tennessee.

我认为我从未收到过来自田纳西州中部的申请，更不用说获胜者了。

I know that’s a failure on my part, but it’s a hard problem to overcome, and his success just drove that home to me all the more.

我知道这对我来说是失败的，但这是一个很难克服的问题，而他的成功让我更加清楚这一点。

Before we close, let me give a shout-out to everyone who helped out on the show this year.

在我们结束之前，让我向今年为节目提供帮助的所有人表示感谢。

That’s Dallas Floer, Sam Alburger, Jen Whisler, Morgan Hamilton, Karen Plante, Christina Behe, Haley Larsen, Anna McVae, Ashley Schiller, and there are many others who have contributed as well in small ways.

他们是达拉斯·弗洛尔 (Dallas Floer)、山姆·阿尔伯格 (Sam Alburger)、珍·惠斯勒 (Jen Whisler)、摩根·汉密尔顿 (Morgan Hamilton)、凯伦·普兰特 (Karen Plante)、克里斯蒂娜·贝赫 (Christina Behe)、海莉·拉森 (Haley Larsen)、安娜·麦克维 (Anna McVae)、阿什利·席勒 (Ashley Schiller)，还有许多其他人也做出了小小的贡献。

Thank you all very much, and we look forward to another year in Conversations in 2024.

非常感谢大家，我们期待 2024 年对话的又一年。

Years, right?

几年了，对吗？

Thank you, Jeff.

谢谢你，杰夫。

Thank you.

谢谢。