Coleman Hughes on Colorblindness, Jazz, and Identity (Ep. 211)
Special thanks to O’Shaughnessy Ventures, a creative company that inspires creators, for sponsoring this transcript.
特别感谢 O’Shaughnessy Ventures，一家激励创作者的创意公司，赞助了这份文字记录。
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I’m here with Coleman Hughes.
今天我和科尔曼·休斯一起来。
Coleman has a great new book out, The End of Race Politics: Arguments for a Colorblind America.
科尔曼出版了一本很棒的新书，《种族政治的终结：色盲美国的争论》。
But Coleman is more than just a book author.
但科尔曼不仅仅是一位书籍作者。
He is a well-known blogger.
他是一位知名博主。
He has a very famous podcast, Conversations with Coleman.
他有一个非常著名的播客，Conversations with Coleman。
He has been a star in rap music.
他一直是说唱音乐界的明星。
He plays jazz music — trombone — professionally in New York City nightclubs, and he’s all around a public intellectual and famous person.
他在纽约市的夜总会专业演奏爵士乐——“长号”——“他周围都是公共知识分子和名人。
Coleman, welcome.
科尔曼，欢迎。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
I have to apologize for stealing the name of your podcast for mine, but I figured I have alliteration, so I have extra reason to do it.
我必须为我的播客盗用你的名字而道歉，但我想我有头韵，所以我有额外的理由这样做。
If your name was Tyler, it would be bad, but in fact it’s totally fine.
如果你的名字是泰勒，那就糟糕了，但事实上完全没问题。
Now, before we get to your book, I have just some random questions for you.
现在，在我们讨论你的书之前，我想问你一些随机问题。
What have you learned from J.J.
你从 J.J. 身上学到了什么？
Johnson?
约翰逊？
What is most interesting about J.J.
J.J. 最有趣的是什么？
Johnson is that he was an extreme perfectionist.
约翰逊的特点是他是一个极端的完美主义者。
What people don’t realize about J.J., at least people that aren’t deep connoisseurs, is that most of his solos on his records were prepared.
人们没有意识到 J.J.，至少不是资深鉴赏家的人，是他唱片中的大部分独奏都是经过准备的。
To an extent, that is not true of his other contemporaries like Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, etc. Most of their solos were truly improvised.
在某种程度上，查理·帕克（Charlie Parker）、迪兹·吉莱斯皮（Dizzy Gillespie）等其他同时代人的情况并非如此。他们的大部分独奏都是真正的即兴创作。
Like if you go to the alternate takes on those records, it’s a different solo.
就像如果你去听这些唱片的替代版本一样，这是一个不同的独奏。
If you go to J.J.’s alternate takes, it’s almost the same solo.
如果你去看 J.J. 的替代曲目，你会发现这几乎是相同的独奏。
I think that, rather than be a bug, that was a feature of his success.
我认为这不是一个错误，而是他成功的一个特点。
Because if you consider the challenges required to make the trombone into a bebop instrument — which nobody thought was possible before J.J.
因为如果你考虑一下将长号打造成波普乐器所需的挑战——在 J.J. 之前没有人认为这是可能的。
Johnson did it — it’s a catch-22 because the level of perfectionism you would have had to have in order to be the first successful bebop trombone player would also preclude you from being a truly improvisatory musician, which is generally characteristic of jazz musicians.
约翰逊做到了——这是一个第二十二条军规，因为要成为第一个成功的波普长号演奏家，你所必须达到的完美主义水平也会妨碍你成为一个真正的即兴音乐家，而这通常是爵士乐音乐家的特征。
Are most of your trombone solos prepared?
你的大部分长号独奏都准备好了吗？
No. But, in a way, I benefit —
不。但是，在某种程度上，我受益 ——
This is why you can’t compare modern players to players of the past.
这就是为什么你不能将现代球员与过去的球员进行比较。
I benefit enormously from having studied and learned all of, or many of, J.J.
我从学习和了解 J.J. 的全部或许多内容中受益匪浅。
Johnson’s solos.
约翰逊的独奏。
There were things he had to invent that are now second nature to most trombonists, which make it easier to improvise in that style than it would have been for him.
他必须发明的东西现在已经成为大多数长号手的第二天性，这使得以这种风格即兴创作比他更容易。
Physically, what’s the hardest thing about playing the trombone?
从体力上来说，吹长号最难的是什么？
It’s actually not the slide.
其实这不是幻灯片。
The slide, in my view — that’s what attracted me to the trombone, the fact that you push and pull rather than pressing buttons or valves, and that’s what makes it distinct.
在我看来，幻灯片——这就是长号吸引我的地方，事实上你是推拉而不是按下按钮或阀门，这就是长号的独特之处。
But the slide motion is not actually the trickiest thing about it.
但滑动动作实际上并不是最棘手的事情。
The trickiest thing about it is the same thing that’s tricky about every other brass instrument, which is the embouchure.
它最棘手的事情和其他铜管乐器一样棘手，那就是吹口。
That’s what separates great trumpet players from poor trumpet players.
这就是伟大的小号演奏家和糟糕的小号演奏家的区别。
In my view, the finger technique is not nearly the hardest part.
在我看来，手指技术并不是最难的部分。
It’s always the small muscles of the mouth and coordinating those to play the instrument effectively.
有效地演奏乐器总是需要嘴部的小肌肉并协调这些肌肉。
On jazz, Puerto Rican music, and Billy Joel
关于爵士乐、波多黎各音乐和比利·乔尔
How was it you ended up playing trombone in Charles Mingus Big Band?
你最终在 Charles Mingus Big Band 中演奏长号是怎么回事？
I participated in the Charles Mingus high school jazz festival, which they still do every year.
我参加了查尔斯明格斯高中爵士音乐节，他们每年仍然举办。
It was new at the time.
这在当时是新鲜事。
They invite bands from all around to audition, and they identify a handful of good soloists and let them sit in for one night with the band.
他们邀请各地的乐队来试镜，并挑选了一些优秀的独奏家，让他们和乐队一起呆一晚。
I sat in with the band, and the band leader knew that I lived close by in New Jersey, and so essentially invited me to start playing with the band on Monday nights.
我和乐队坐在一起，乐队领导知道我住在新泽西州附近，所以基本上邀请我在周一晚上开始和乐队一起演奏。
I was probably 16 or 17 at this point, so I would take the NJ Transit into New York City on a Monday night, play two sets with the Mingus Band sitting next to people that had been my idols and were now my mentors — people like Ku-umba Frank Lacy, who is a fantastic trombone player; played with Art Blakey and D’Angelo and so forth.
当时我大概 16 岁或 17 岁，所以我会在周一晚上乘坐新泽西捷运前往纽约市，与 Mingus Band 一起演奏两场，旁边坐着那些曾经是我的偶像、现在是我的导师的人——像 Ku-umba Frank Lacy 这样的人，他是一位出色的长号演奏家；与 Art Blakey 和 D’Angelo 等一起演奏。
Then I would go home at midnight and go to school on Tuesday morning.
然后我会在午夜回家并在周二早上去学校。
Why is the music of Charles Mingus special in jazz?
为什么查尔斯明格斯的音乐在爵士乐中很特别？
Because it is to me, but how would you articulate what it is for you?
因为它对我来说是这样，但你如何表达它对你来说意味着什么？
I would wholeheartedly agree that it’s special even within jazz.
我完全同意即使在爵士乐中它也是很特别的。
The way I would describe it is, there are certain jazz musicians that seem to have created their own autonomous island within the landscape of jazz.
我的描述是，有些爵士音乐家似乎在爵士乐的景观中创造了自己的自治岛屿。
Whereas most of the great jazz musicians resided in the same country, certain people were off in Taiwan on their own island.
虽然大多数伟大的爵士乐音乐家都居住在同一个国家，但某些人却远在台湾的自己的岛屿上。
I would put Mingus in that category.
我会把明格斯归入这一类。
I would put someone like Monk in that category.
我会把像蒙克这样的人归入这一类。
Ornette Coleman, people like that.
奥内特·科尔曼，就是这样的人。
Mingus’s music is my favorite of all of those because it sounds like Duke Ellington if Duke Ellington had an acid trip and composed things that were broadly in his idiom, but just everything was changed a bit.
Mingus 的音乐是所有这些音乐中我最喜欢的，因为如果艾灵顿公爵进行了一次迷幻之旅并创作了大致符合他的风格的东西，那么听起来就像艾灵顿公爵，但只是一切都改变了一点。
That’s how I would describe Mingus.
这就是我对 Mingus 的描述。
Where should a podcast listener start if they don’t know Mingus?
如果播客听众不认识 Mingus，他们应该从哪里开始？
I think you should start with Mingus Ah Um because it’s the album that would most broadly appeal to someone who didn’t know any Mingus.
我认为你应该从 Mingus Ah Um 开始，因为这张专辑最能吸引那些不认识 Mingus 的人。
I would also very much recommend watching his interviews, as his personality is part of the experience of listening to him.
我也非常推荐观看他的采访，因为他的个性是聆听他的经历的一部分。
Then my favorite Mingus is probably — Black Saint and the Sinner Lady is, I think, a masterpiece.
那么我最喜欢的明格斯大概是 —— 黑圣与罪人女士我认为是一部杰作。
The lesser-known Mingus piece that is a beauty and was part of his several-hour-long composition called Epitaph, which I think he never finished, but it’s a song called “Pinky Don’t Come Back from the Moon Looking for Love, Man.” It’s a beautiful, 10-minute or so, just gorgeous piece.
明格斯的那首不太为人所知的作品很美，是他长达几个小时的作品《墓志铭》的一部分，我认为他从未完成这首作品，但这是一首名为“Pinky Don’t Come Back from the Moon Looking for Love, Man”的歌曲。这是一个美丽的、大约 10 分钟的、非常华丽的作品。
He had a penchant for these — giving really long names and funny names.
他对这些很感兴趣——起很长的名字和有趣的名字。
So he has another one, for instance, called — it’s a contrafact of the song “All the Things You Are.” Contrafact meaning same chords, different melody.
例如，他还有另一首歌曲，名为“ ”，它与歌曲“All the Things You Are”相反。 Contrafac 意思是相同的和弦，不同的旋律。
He called it “All the Things You Could Be If Sigmund Freud’s Wife Was Your Mother.”
他称之为“如果西格蒙德·弗洛伊德的妻子是你的母亲，你会成为什么样的人”。
He had these very funny titles, and I’m a lifelong Mingus fan and blessed to play in the band.
他有这些非常有趣的头衔，我是 Mingus 的终身粉丝，很幸运能在乐队中演奏。
I want to be charmed by Puerto Rican music.
我想被波多黎各音乐所吸引。
Where should I start?
我应该从哪里开始？
Oh, you should definitely start with Héctor Lavoe.
哦，你绝对应该从 Héctor Lavoe 开始。
I would say Héctor Lavoe’s music is — it’s incredible.
我想说 Héctor Lavoe 的音乐是 —— 令人难以置信。
It’s incredible to dance to.
跳舞真是令人难以置信。
It stands the test of time.
它经得起时间的考验。
A lot of it is thematically dark, actually.
事实上，其中很多主题都是黑暗的。
Many of his most famous songs are — for instance, “El día de mi suerte” is an extremely sad song about how his mother died and then his father died and he had a tragic life, but you would never know that because it sounds so damn happy and it makes you want to dance.
他的许多最著名的歌曲都是——例如，《El día de mi suerte》是一首极其悲伤的歌曲，讲述了他的母亲去世，然后他的父亲去世，他过着悲惨的生活，但你永远不会知道这一点，因为它听起来是如此快乐，它让你想跳舞。
It’s also probably the best example of how trombones can be used, because most of that music was performed with Willie Colón, who is arguably the greatest Latin trombone player.
这也可能是如何使用长号的最好例子，因为大部分音乐都是由威利·科隆演奏的，他可以说是最伟大的拉丁长号演奏家。
Essentially, they could sustain the whole harmony of the band if they wanted to without a piano or guitar, simply by having two trombones playing triple forte.
从本质上讲，如果他们想在没有钢琴或吉他的情况下维持乐队的整体和谐，只需让两个长号演奏三重强音即可。
That’s another thing I really love about that music.
这是我真正喜欢音乐的另一件事。
Is Billy Joel at all any good?
比利乔尔真的好吗？
That’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
I love “Piano Man.” I think it’s an incredible song.
我喜欢《钢琴人》。我认为这是一首令人难以置信的歌曲。
I can’t really speak to, that much, Billy Joel being great outside of the few hits, but “Piano Man,” I think, is a correctly rated song.
我真的不能说太多，比利·乔尔除了几首热门歌曲之外还很出色，但我认为“钢琴人”是一首正确评价的歌曲。
I’ve been thinking about him lately because he has immense talent, but I don’t like most of it.
我最近一直在想他，因为他有巨大的天赋，但我不喜欢他的大部分天赋。
That raises interesting questions.
这就提出了有趣的问题。
But when I hear it on the radio, I don’t dislike it.
但当我在广播中听到它时，我并不讨厌它。
I actually want to dislike it more than I actually do.
我实际上比实际更想不喜欢它。
Which aspect bothers you?
哪个方面让您烦恼？
In what sense does it matter that he’s not talented if you like it most of the time?
如果你大部分时间都喜欢他，那么他没有才华又有什么关系呢？
It feels — dumbed down.
感觉“——”愚蠢了。
I grew up in New Jersey, as you did.
我和你一样在新泽西长大。
It appeals to a particular culture that I feel I ought to be rejecting a bit more than perhaps I do.
它吸引了一种特定的文化，我觉得我应该更多地拒绝这种文化。
I don’t know if I’m allowed to say this, given the topic of your book, but in some ways, it’s too “white” for me.
考虑到你书的主题，我不知道我是否可以这么说，但在某些方面，这对我来说太“白”了。
Rhythmically it can be flaccid, but like if I hear “Movin’ Out” and, you know, “heart attack-ack, ack, ack,” I enjoy that.
从节奏上来说，它可能是松弛的，但就像我听到“Movin' Out”，你知道，“心脏病发作-ack，ack，ack”一样，我很喜欢。
Am I wrong?
我错了吗？
Is it that it was so influential that it’s become banal through people —
是不是影响力太大，被人们认为平庸了 ——
For me.
对我来说。
Yes.
是的。
I heard it all the time growing up, probably in a way you did not.
我在成长的过程中一直听到这句话，可能是以一种你没有听过的方式。
How did it strike you when you were growing up?
在你成长的过程中，它给你带来了怎样的印象？
The exact same way.
完全一样的方式。
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
I was wondering if it’s just that it was so influential it influenced everything else and now sounds banal in retrospect, but it sounded banal at the time.
我想知道是否只是因为它影响力太大以至于影响了其他一切，现在回想起来听起来很平庸，但在当时听起来很平庸。
And I think purposely so.
我是故意这样认为的。
But it’s interesting: when I listen to satellite radio, sometimes Billy Joel is on as a disc jockey.
但有趣的是：当我听卫星广播时，有时比利乔尔会以唱片骑师的身份出现。
He’s an A-plus-quality teacher about music, how he explains things.
他是一位关于音乐、解释事物的一流老师。
And I have great respect for that.
我对此非常尊重。
Yes.
是的。
I don’t think there’s much correlation between being able to explain it well and being able to do it well, is one thing I’ve noticed of musicians.
我认为能够很好地解释它和能够做好它之间没有太大的相关性，这是我注意到音乐家的一件事。
Now, you were a philosophy major at Columbia.
现在，你是哥伦比亚大学哲学专业的学生。
That’s now a while back.
那是不久前的事了。
What is it you like most about continental philosophy?
您最喜欢欧陆哲学的什么？
The truth is, I didn’t resonate with much of any continental philosophy.
事实是，我对任何欧陆哲学都没有产生太多共鸣。
It struck me as not respecting what I value in writing, which is brevity and clarity.
我觉得这不尊重我在写作中所看重的东西，那就是简洁和清晰。
I might like to read someone who really gets Nietzsche explain what Nietzsche was trying to say, but reading Nietzsche itself was not a very fun experience for me.
我可能想读一个真正理解尼采的人来解释尼采想说的话，但阅读尼采本身对我来说并不是一种非常有趣的经历。
So I gravitated strongly towards analytic philosophy.
所以我强烈地倾向于分析哲学。
The expositors are often worse, right?
解经者往往更糟，对吗？
You think, “Oh, they’re going to clarify Nietzsche,” but you get something longer and more convoluted.
你想，“哦，他们会澄清尼采”，但你会得到更长、更复杂的东西。
The ones that are really —
那些真正的 ——
“No, please give me back Nietzsche.”
“不，请把尼采还给我。”
Right.
正确的。
The ones that are hyper-obsessed tend to be very unclear.
那些过度痴迷的人往往非常不清楚。
What would you change in American high schools if you had a magic wand?
如果你有一根魔杖，你会改变美国高中的什么？
That’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
There is research suggesting that longer school days are a good thing.
有研究表明，更长的上学时间是一件好事。
Roland Fryer’s experiments in Texas where he randomly selects schools and extends the school day, among other things, gets good results.
罗兰·弗赖尔（Roland Fryer）在德克萨斯州进行的实验，随机选择学校，延长上课时间等，取得了良好的效果。
On the other hand, there just are a lot of kids that don’t resonate with the structure and skill set of high school or public school and schooling in general, and their talents lie elsewhere.
另一方面，有很多孩子与高中或公立学校和一般学校教育的结构和技能不产生共鸣，他们的才能在其他地方。
I know countless musicians that may have even been diagnosed as “ADHD” in school, but the reality is they had no trouble focusing in general, and certainly had no trouble focusing on practicing their instrument for five hours at a time, but had no interest in school as it was structured.
我认识无数的音乐家，他们甚至可能在学校被诊断为“注意力缺陷多动症”，但事实是，他们一般都可以集中注意力，并且一次练习五个小时的乐器当然也没有困难，但对学校的结构不感兴趣。
I’d be curious what can be done to make school more tolerable for those kinds of kids.
我很好奇如何才能让这类孩子更容易上学。
On the practicality of colorblindness
论色盲的实用性
We’ll get back to miscellaneous questions, but now let’s get to your book.
我们将回到其他问题，但现在让我们来看看你的书。
Again, The End of Race Politics: Arguments for a Colorblind America.
种族政治的终结：色盲美国的争论。
How would you give us your bottom-line message in the book?
您如何向我们传达书中的底线信息？
I don’t usually do this, but how would you explain it?
我通常不这样做，但你会如何解释呢？
Yes.
是的。
I would basically explain it by saying the idea of color blindness, by which I mean trying to treat people without regard to race and having color-blind, race-neutral public policy: that’s become a dirty word and a dirty concept, in particular on the Left, in the past couple decades — really in the past decade.
我基本上会用色盲的概念来解释它，我的意思是试图不考虑种族地对待人们，并制定色盲、种族中立的公共政策：这已经成为一个肮脏的词和一个肮脏的概念，特别是在左派身上，在过去的几十年里——实际上是在过去的十年里。
This book is an attempt to rescue color blindness from the jaws of disdain and argue that it is the best overall philosophy by which to view the idea of race.
这本书试图将色盲从蔑视的困境中拯救出来，并认为这是看待种族观念的最佳整体哲学。
That we want to raise our children — even if it’s a watered-down version of MLK, we ought to raise our children on that message.
我们想要抚养我们的孩子——即使这是淡化版本的马丁路德金，我们也应该根据这一信息来抚养我们的孩子。
We ought to get race out of public policy and, wherever possible, wherever plausible, use socioeconomics where we want to deal with issues of disadvantage.
我们应该将种族问题排除在公共政策之外，并在可能的情况下，在我们想要处理弱势问题的地方使用社会经济学。
If I understand you correctly, you’re also suggesting in our private lives we should be color-blind.
如果我没理解错的话，你也暗示在我们的私人生活中我们应该是色盲的。
Yes.
是的。
Broadly, yes.
从广义上讲，是的。
Or we should try to be.
或者我们应该努力做到这一点。
We should try to be.
我们应该努力做到。
This is where I might not agree with you.
这就是我可能不同意你的观点。
So I find if I look at media, I look at social media, I see a dispute — I think 100 percent of the time I agree with Coleman, pretty much, on these race-related matters.
所以我发现，如果我看媒体、社交媒体，我会看到一场争论——我认为在这些与种族相关的问题上，我几乎 100% 同意科尔曼的观点。
In private lives, I’m less sure.
在私生活中，我不太确定。
Let me ask you a question.
让我问你一个问题。
Sure.
当然。
Could jazz music have been created in a color-blind America?
爵士乐可能是在一个色盲的美国创造出来的吗？
Could it have been created in a color-blind America — in what sense do you mean that question?
它有可能是在一个色盲的美国创造出来的吗？——你问这个问题是什么意思？
It seems there’s a lot of cultural creativity.
看来文化创意还蛮多的。
One issue is it may have required some hardship, but that’s not my point.
一个问题是它可能需要一些困难，但这不是我的观点。
It requires some sense of a cultural identity to motivate it — that the people making it want to express something about their lives, their history, their communities.
它需要某种文化认同感来激励它——创造它的人们想要表达一些关于他们的生活、他们的历史、他们的社区的东西。
And to them it’s not color-blind.
对他们来说，这并不是色盲。
Interesting.
有趣的。
My counterargument to that would be, insofar as I understand the early history of jazz, it was heavily more racially integrated than American society was at that time.
我对此的反驳是，就我对爵士乐早期历史的了解而言，它的种族融合程度比当时的美国社会要高得多。
In the sense that the culture of jazz music as it existed in, say, New Orleans and New York City was many, many decades ahead of the curve in terms of its attitudes towards how people should live racially: interracial friendship, interracial relationship, etc. Yes, I’d argue the ethos of jazz was more color-blind, in my sense, than the American average at the time.
从某种意义上说，新奥尔良和纽约市存在的爵士乐文化在人们对种族生活方式的态度方面领先了许多、许多几十年：跨种族友谊、跨种族关系等。是的，我认为爵士乐的精神在我看来比当时美国的平均水平更加无肤色。
But maybe there’s some portfolio effect here.
但也许这里存在一些投资组合效应。
So yes, Benny Goodman hires Teddy Wilson to play for him.
所以，是的，本尼·古德曼聘请了泰迪·威尔逊为他效力。
Teddy Wilson was black, as I’m sure you know.
泰迪·威尔逊是黑人，我相信你知道。
And that works marvelously well.
这效果非常好。
It’s just good for the world that Benny Goodman does this.
本尼·古德曼这样做对世界来说是件好事。
Can it still not be the case that Teddy Wilson is pulling from something deep in his being, in his soul — about his racial experience, his upbringing, the people he’s known — and that that’s where a lot of the expression in the music comes from?
泰迪·威尔逊难道还不能从他的存在、他的灵魂深处——关于他的种族经历、他的成长经历、他所认识的人——而这就是音乐中许多表达的来源吗？
That is most decidedly not color-blind, even though we would all endorse the fact that Benny Goodman was willing to hire Teddy Wilson.
这绝对不是色盲，尽管我们都赞同本尼·古德曼愿意雇用泰迪·威尔逊这一事实。
Yes.
是的。
Maybe — I’d argue it may not be culture-blind, though it probably is color-blind, in the sense that black Americans don’t just represent a race.
也许——我认为它可能不是文化盲，尽管它可能是色盲，因为美国黑人不仅仅代表一个种族。
That’s what a black American would have in common — that’s what I would have in common with someone from Ethiopia, is that we’re broadly of the same “race.” We are not at all of the same culture.
这就是美国黑人的共同点——这就是我和埃塞俄比亚人的共同点，那就是我们基本上属于同一“种族”。我们根本不是同一种文化。
To the extent that there is something called “African American culture,” which I believe that there is, which has had many wonderful products, including jazz and hip-hop — yes, then I’m perfectly willing to concede that that’s a cultural product in the same way that, say, country music is like a product of broadly Southern culture.
在某种程度上，有一种叫做“非裔美国人文化”的东西，我相信它确实存在，它已经产生了许多精彩的产品，包括爵士乐和嘻哈音乐——是的，那么我完全愿意承认这是一种文化产品，就像乡村音乐就像广泛的南方文化的产品一样。
But then here’s my worry a bit.
但我有点担心。
You’re going to have people privately putting out cultural visions in the public sphere through music, television, novels — a thousand ways — and those will inevitably be somewhat political once they’re cultural visions.
人们将会私下通过音乐、电视、小说——“一千种方式”——在公共领域表达文化愿景，而一旦它们成为文化愿景，这些就不可避免地带有政治色彩。
So these other visions will be out there, and a lot of them you’re going to disagree with.
所以这些其他的愿景将会存在，其中很多你会不同意。
It might be fine to say, “It would be better if we were all much more color-blind.” But given these other non-color-blind visions are out there, do you not have to, in some sense, counter them by not being so color-blind yourself and say, “Well, here’s a better way to think about the black or African American or Ethiopian or whatever identity”?
可以这样说：“如果我们都更加色盲就好了。”但鉴于存在其他非色盲愿景，从某种意义上说，您是否不必通过自己不那么色盲来反驳它们，并说：“好吧，这是思考黑人、非裔美国人、埃塞俄比亚人或其他身份的更好方式”？
Yes, I think that’s right.
是的，我认为这是对的。
I think they’re compatible in the sense that you can push for the soft version of something and the harder version of something, if not at literally the same time, then by turns.
我认为它们是兼容的，因为你可以推动某些东西的软版本和硬版本，如果不是同时进行，那么可以轮流进行。
What I’ve been arguing for is a firewall between the cultural versions you’re talking about and the political aspects.
我一直主张的是在你所谈论的文化版本和政治方面之间建立防火墙。
But I think you’re right that in practice they may bleed into each other — they might correlate very highly, right?
但我认为你是对的，在实践中它们可能会相互渗透——它们可能具有非常高的相关性，对吗？
Maybe I, Coleman Hughes, have no problem separating the fact that I grew up with black and Puerto Rican music and have a special attachment to it.
也许我，科尔曼·休斯，可以毫不犹豫地区分我是在黑人和波多黎各音乐的陪伴下长大的，并对它们有一种特殊的依恋。
Also I have a special attachment to Puerto Rican food, for instance.
例如，我对波多黎各食物也有一种特殊的依恋。
I have no problem separating that aspect of me from a demand that the state treat me and my racial group differently, or a political program based on race broadly.
我毫不犹豫地将我的这一方面与国家以不同方式对待我和我的种族群体的要求，或广泛基于种族的政治计划分开。
But it might be the case that for many people, those are just one and the same, or they draw on the same impulse.
但对于许多人来说，情况可能是一样的，或者他们出于同样的冲动。
Now, I’m Irish American, and sometimes I go to Ireland and other times I go to Scotland, and I enjoy them both.
现在，我是爱尔兰裔美国人，有时我去爱尔兰，有时我去苏格兰，我都喜欢它们。
I don’t really think intrinsically one is better or worse than the other.
从本质上讲，我并不认为其中一个比另一个更好或更差。
But I would admit that I honestly feel somewhat better about being in Ireland for some weird, arbitrary reason.
但我承认，出于某种奇怪、武断的原因，我确实对在爱尔兰感觉更好。
I think, “I’m Irish American; this to me is just a bit more interesting,” and it’s probably me fooling myself, but some parts of it even feel a little bit more familiar than Scotland would.
我想，“我是爱尔兰裔美国人；这对我来说只是更有趣一点，”这可能是我在欺骗自己，但其中的某些部分甚至感觉比苏格兰更熟悉一点。
I fully admit that might be placebo or my own self-delusion.
我完全承认这可能是安慰剂或我自己的自欺欺人。
Should I feel bad about thinking that way?
我应该为这样的想法感到难过吗？
No, I don’t think you should feel bad about thinking that way.
不，我认为你不应该因为这样的想法而感到难过。
And I think that I know much more about Puerto Rico than I would if I weren’t one-half Puerto Rican.
我认为，如果我不是半个波多黎各人，我对波多黎各的了解要多得多。
I know much more about it than I know about the Dominican Republic, say.
比如说，我对它的了解比对多米尼加共和国的了解还要多。
However, I would ask you a question.
不过，我想问你一个问题。
I would turn it around.
我会把它扭转过来。
I would ask you if you were to write an MR post about some issue in Irish or Scottish politics, do you think you would analyze them differently, or do you think you would put that little feeling to the side?
我想问你，如果你要写一篇关于爱尔兰或苏格兰政治问题的 MR 文章，你认为你会以不同的方式分析它们，还是你认为你会把这种小小的感觉放在一边？
I think I would know more about Ireland.
我想我会对爱尔兰有更多的了解。
It would be different.
情况会有所不同。
I don’t think I would consciously be biased, but I don’t think I could quite do it neutrally either.
我不认为我会有意识地带有偏见，但我也不认为我能完全中立地做到这一点。
And I’m pretty distant from Ireland: No relatives there.
而且我离爱尔兰很远：那里没有亲戚。
I’ve only been a few times.
我只去过几次。
I’m not an Irish American, sending money to the IRA and drinking in a stereotypical Irish American pub.
我不是爱尔兰裔美国人，向爱尔兰共和军汇款并在典型的爱尔兰裔美国酒吧里喝酒。
There’s not really much in my life that would —
我的生活中并没有太多可以——
You’re not drinking, period.
你没有喝酒，就这样。
Yes.
是的。
This is what worries me a bit.
这是我有点担心的地方。
If I went to, say, Ireland and Africa, and then when I’m in Ireland, I feel a bit better there because, “Oh, I’m in Ireland.
如果我去了爱尔兰和非洲，然后当我在爱尔兰时，我感觉会好一点，因为，“哦，我在爱尔兰。
That’s a place with white people,” I definitely would feel bad if I had that opinion — and I don’t, in fact.
那是一个有白人的地方，”如果我有这样的观点，我肯定会感觉很糟糕 ——事实上我没有。
Actually, if anything, I’m the kind of — prefer to embrace that which is, in some ways, distant from me along those margins.
事实上，如果有的话，我是那种“更喜欢拥抱那些在某种程度上远离我的事物”。
But it would be wrong, right, if I said, “Oh, well, I’m in Ireland.
但如果我说：“哦，好吧，我在爱尔兰。
I’m white.
我是白人。
That’s the white people’s place.
那是白人的地盘。
I can feel a little better about that than being in Ethiopia.”
我对此感觉比在埃塞俄比亚好一点。”
Then there, again, I would underscore the distinction between race and culture.
然后，我再次强调种族和文化之间的区别。
I don’t think anyone should feel bad about the inevitable fact that we have more cultural attachments to the things that we know and the places we’re from and the foods we grew up with and the music we grew up with.
我认为任何人都不应该对这样一个不可避免的事实感到难过：我们对我们所知道的事物、我们来自的地方、我们成长的食物和我们成长的音乐有更多的文化依恋。
That’s all inevitable.
这都是不可避免的。
I even don’t begrudge someone saying, “Look, I’m Jewish.
我什至不嫉妒有人说：“看，我是犹太人。
I would frankly prefer to live in a Jewish community.
坦率地说，我更喜欢住在犹太社区。
I would prefer to marry a Jewish person,” and so forth.
我更愿意嫁给一个犹太人，”等等。
All of those kinds of feelings, I would argue, are inevitable, and you shouldn’t fight within yourself.
我认为，所有这些感觉都是不可避免的，你不应该在自己内心挣扎。
However, I think there should be a strong firewall between saying all of those things and saying the state ought to treat my group special because of this, that, or another reason.
然而，我认为在说所有这些事情和说国家应该因为这个、那个或其他原因而特殊对待我的团队之间应该有一个强大的防火墙。
Like I said, that might be too hard a distinction for some people to draw.
就像我说的，对于某些人来说，这可能很难区分。
It’s not a hard one for me to draw.
对我来说画起来并不难。
Maybe I falsely assume it’s realistic to advocate other people draw it, but that seems to me a sensible place to draw the line, given we have to draw it somewhere between “everyone’s a rational individual with no attachments whatsoever” and “any and all expressions of racial and group pride are OK.”
也许我错误地认为提倡其他人画它是现实的，但在我看来，这是一个明智的划界线，因为我们必须在“每个人都是一个没有任何依恋的理性个体”和“任何和所有种族和群体自豪感的表达都可以”之间划定界限。
I agree fully when it comes to the state, but in terms of separating race and culture, they seem quite intertwined to me.
当谈到国家时，我完全同意，但就种族和文化的分离而言，它们对我来说似乎相当交织在一起。
A lot of people’s cultures talk about their race.
许多人的文化都会谈论他们的种族。
It can be in quite unpleasant ways in many cases, as we both know.
正如我们都知道的，在许多情况下，这可能会以非常不愉快的方式出现。
So is there really that firewall there?
那么真的有防火墙吗？
I would argue race and culture are fairly distinct.
我认为种族和文化是相当不同的。
The fact that in America right now, arguably the most bitter difference is between two different white cultures.
事实上，目前在美国，最痛苦的差异可以说是两种不同的白人文化之间的差异。
I think — was it David French who wrote the piece about the great white culture war, something like that, a few years back?
我想——几年前，大卫·弗伦奇（David French）写了一篇关于伟大的白人文化战争之类的文章吗？
Where you have white Americans of a blue culture and white Americans of a red culture — some who grew up with 50 guns thinking it’s normal, and some who literally couldn’t tell you the difference between a shotgun and a rifle — looking at each other and feeling really all of the sociological feelings of tribal hatred towards one another, but are totally of the same race.
拥有蓝色文化的美国白人和拥有红色文化的美国白人——有些人从小就有 50 支枪，认为这很正常，有些人根本无法告诉你霰弹枪和步枪之间的区别——彼此看着对方，感受到了部落相互仇恨的所有社会学感受，但他们完全属于同一种族。
I think that underscores the difference between race and culture.
我认为这强调了种族和文化之间的差异。
Let me try another hypothetical on you.
让我对你尝试另一个假设。
You might ask, “Should we be race-blind?” But should we be autism-blind?
你可能会问，“我们应该不区分种族吗？”但我们应该对自闭症视而不见吗？
If I meet a person who is autistic or I think they’re autistic, I’ll make a point of speaking to that person more directly.
如果我遇到一个自闭症患者或者我认为他们患有自闭症，我会更直接地与那个人交谈。
You could say I would treat them differently.
你可以说我会以不同的方式对待他们。
I think it is efficient.
我认为这是有效的。
I think it’s welcome.
我认为这是受欢迎的。
It leads to better outcomes.
它会带来更好的结果。
I wouldn’t say I’m autism-blind.
我不会说我是自闭症盲人。
Now, autism isn’t culture.
现在，自闭症不是文化。
It’s not race, but it is mostly genetic.
这不是种族问题，但主要是遗传因素。
It’s a thing you were born with.
这是你与生俱来的东西。
Should we be autism-blind or ADHD-blind or whatever-else-blind?
我们应该是自闭症盲人、多动症盲人还是其他什么盲人？
No, I don’t think we should be autism-blind.
不，我认为我们不应该对自闭症视而不见。
I think insofar as you know someone has a totally different communication style, you know that they don’t read facial expressions well, it makes sense to take that into account in all of your interactions and communications with them.
我认为只要你知道某人有完全不同的沟通方式，你知道他们不能很好地解读面部表情，那么在你与他们的所有互动和沟通中考虑到这一点是有意义的。
For instance, I don’t argue that we should be gender-blind, at least not in the same sense we should try to be race-blind, because there really just are important differences between men and women that shouldn’t be ignored.
例如，我并不认为我们应该对性别视而不见，至少不是在同样的意义上我们应该尝试对种族视而不见，因为男性和女性之间确实存在着不容忽视的重要差异。
You shouldn’t treat anyone worse, but I also wouldn’t necessarily treat my brother and my sister and my mother and my father the same in every possible conversation or scenario.
你不应该对任何人更坏，但我也不一定在每一次可能的对话或场景中都对我的兄弟和姐妹以及我的母亲和父亲一视同仁。
It’s not about a hierarchy of treatment.
这与治疗的等级无关。
It’s simply nonidentical treatment.
这根本就是不相同的待遇。
My point about race, I think, is that race really is — whatever you think about its constructed nature, it’s much more socially constructed than all of these other categories.
我认为，我关于种族的观点是，种族确实是 —— 无论你如何看待它的构建本质，它比所有其他类别更具社会构建性。
If we have autistic people in 1,000 years, they’re going to have the same symptoms that they did 1,000 years ago.
如果 1000 年后出现自闭症患者，他们将会出现与 1000 年前相同的症状。
The classic differences between men and women today are quite similar to what they were 50 years ago, and there will be differences between men and women in 100 years.
今天男女之间的经典差异与50年前非常相似，100年后男女之间也会有差异。
But race is not really like that.
但种族并非如此。
What we think of as a racial difference is heavily influenced by culture.
我们所认为的种族差异很大程度上受到文化的影响。
In that sense, they’re intertwined.
从这个意义上说，它们是交织在一起的。
I think it’s much more fertile ground for progress to advocate that people treat those of different races without regard to their race than to treat people with, say, different personality conditions or genders or so forth.
我认为，倡导人们不分种族地对待不同种族的人，比对待具有不同性格条件或性别等的人，更能推动进步。
Things that are, frankly, less malleable to begin with.
坦率地说，这些事情一开始就不太可塑。
In its most fundamental terms, if you had to present the micro foundation for why does race get so much blindness in your view .
从最基本的角度来说，如果你必须提供微观基础来解释为什么种族在你的观点中如此盲目。
.
。
.
。
So culture is extremely contingent, and yet there you don’t want us to be culture-blind.
因此，文化是极其偶然的，但你不希望我们对文化视而不见。
Then autism, say, is mostly genetic, and you don’t want us to be autism-blind.
那么，自闭症主要是遗传性的，你不希望我们成为自闭症盲人。
The extreme contingent and the extreme noncontingent, you don’t want blindness, but there’s some point in the middle where blindness makes sense — or how does the whole model operate?
极端的偶然性和极端的非偶然性，你不希望盲目，但在中间的某个点，盲目性是有意义的 ——或者整个模型是如何运作的？
I guess the model operates in the following way.
我猜这个模型是按以下方式运作的。
If I meet two people of a different culture, I’m not going to treat them differently.
如果我遇到两个不同文化的人，我不会以不同的方式对待他们。
In other words, let’s say, to dissect out the variables.
换句话说，就是剖析变量。
I’ve got an Ethiopian and a black American — same race, totally different cultures — and they’re both applying to work at my podcast.
我有一个埃塞俄比亚人和一个美国黑人——“同一种族，完全不同的文化”——他们都在申请在我的播客工作。
I’m neither going to consider their race nor their culture if they’re editing my podcast, say.
比如说，如果他们编辑我的播客，我既不会考虑他们的种族，也不会考虑他们的文化。
I really only care about their competence there.
我真的只关心他们在那里的能力。
The sense in which you might not be culture-blind is, I wouldn’t fault the Ethiopian guy for saying, “Look, I want an Ethiopian wife, and I like injera better than I like barbecue.” In that sense, I allow him his non–culture blindness.
你可能不是文化盲的感觉是，我不会责怪埃塞俄比亚人说：“听着，我想要一个埃塞俄比亚妻子，而且我喜欢因吉拉胜过喜欢烧烤。”从这个意义上说，我允许他的非文化失明。
I don’t make him feel guilty in the sense that I don’t make you feel guilty when you feel a bit of something for Ireland.
我不会让他感到内疚，就像当你对爱尔兰有一点感觉时，我不会让你感到内疚一样。
I would still insist on not treating them differently: not treating them differently where the different treatment might amount to some kind of injustice.
我仍然坚持不区别对待他们：不区别对待他们，因为不同的待遇可能构成某种不公正。
I wouldn’t insist on being deliberately obtuse about the differences between people with different mental competencies like autism or depression or, God forbid, schizophrenia.
我不会坚持故意对具有不同心理能力的人之间的差异表现得迟钝，例如自闭症或抑郁症，或者上帝禁止的精神分裂症。
Schizophrenia blindness is just being obtuse.
精神分裂症的失明只是迟钝。
The problem is that schizophrenia is actually a perfect proxy for having a different mind.
问题是，精神分裂症实际上是拥有不同想法的完美代表。
Definitionally, that’s what it is.
从定义上来说，就是这样。
Whereas a person’s race is not a very good proxy for having a different mind at all.
然而一个人的种族并不能很好地代表他是否有不同的想法。
It’s certainly not a good proxy the moment you have more information about them.
当你有更多关于它们的信息时，它肯定不是一个好的代理。
The only situations where it might be a good proxy: if you picture a quadrant with stakes and information, if you’re in the quadrant that’s high-stakes and low-information — you know that there’s a bomb in Times Square and you’ve only got two seconds, and you have to decide between the guy that looks like a terrorist and looks like the race of most terrorists you know — I’m not going to fault you for paying attention to race in that particular corner case.
它可能是一个很好的代理的唯一情况：如果你想象一个有赌注和信息的象限，如果你处于高风险和低信息的象限 ——你知道时代广场有一枚炸弹，而你只有两秒钟的时间，你必须在看起来像恐怖分子的人和看起来像你认识的大多数恐怖分子种族的人之间做出选择 —— 我不会责怪你在那个特定的地方关注种族极端情况。
In most of our life situations, we’re in the other three quadrants of situations that are either low-stakes, high-information; low-stakes, low-information; or high-stakes, high-information.
在我们生活的大多数情况下，我们都处于其他三个象限，要么是低风险、高信息；要么是低风险、高信息；或者是低风险、高信息。低风险、低信息；或高风险、高信息。
We’re meeting friends at coffee shops.
我们在咖啡馆见朋友。
We’re introducing each other and so forth in scenarios where we can learn about each other.
我们在可以互相了解的场景中互相介绍等等。
The moment we have that, race falls away as a very useful proxy.
一旦我们有了这个，种族就不再是一个非常有用的代理。
On lookism
论外貌主义
As you probably know, a disproportionate share of American CEOs are quite tall.
您可能知道，美国首席执行官的身高比例不成比例。
How do you feel about “lookism”?
您如何看待“外貌主义”？
Lookism is another one where I would feel — it’s not that I don’t think it’s an injustice of some kind.
外貌至上主义是另一种让我感到“——”的感觉，但这并不是说我不认为这是某种不公正。
It’s that I would feel silly spending very much time trying to budge that particular variable, because I don’t think it’s that budgeable.
而是我会觉得花很多时间试图改变这个特定的变量很愚蠢，因为我不认为它是可以改变的。
I’m not saying it’s not movable at all.
我并不是说它根本不可移动。
I would argue that, for instance, in my view, attitudes towards racism have changed pretty dramatically in the past 50 years — in the past 100, certainly.
例如，我认为，在我看来，在过去 50 年——当然在过去 100 年里，人们对种族主义的态度发生了相当大的变化。
I don’t know that attitudes towards lookism have, and that leads me to believe that lookism might be something more like closer to a constant.
我不知道人们对外貌歧视的态度有没有改变，这让我相信外貌歧视可能更接近于一个常数。
Whereas attitudes towards race are fairly influenceable by, let’s say, those of us who are in the marketplace of ideas.
然而，对种族的态度相当容易受到我们这些思想市场中的人的影响。
I don’t want to exaggerate our influence as a whole profession, but I would feel somewhat silly trying to budge variables that might not be very budgeable.
我不想夸大我们作为整个行业的影响力，但我会觉得试图改变那些可能不太容易改变的变量有点愚蠢。
We worry sometimes that blacks in America face more lookism, even from people who would not typically be considered racist, but when they meet a black person, they really pay more attention to the looks.
有时我们担心美国的黑人面临更多的外貌歧视，即使是那些通常不会被视为种族主义者的人，但当他们遇到黑人时，他们确实会更加关注外貌。
Obama once said when he was president, “When I’m on TV, the one thing I can’t do too much is to get angry.” You look very friendly.
奥巴马在担任总统时曾说过：“当我在电视上时，我不能做太多的一件事就是生气。”你看起来很友好。
You are very friendly; I know you.
你非常友善；我认识你。
How would things have gone for you if you looked more savage?
如果你看起来更野蛮一些，事情会怎样？
Do you think blacks in America face more lookism?
您认为美国黑人面临更多的外貌歧视吗？
I think probably yes.
我想可能是的。
It’s interesting.
这很有趣。
Our friend Noam, who was also on this podcast, said the same thing.
我们的朋友诺姆也在这个播客上，也说了同样的话。
He said if I had a look that was more threatening, for lack of a better word, that I might have a different black experience than the one that I have, and that it’s not .
他说，如果我的表情更具威胁性，因为找不到更好的词来形容，我可能会有一种与现在不同的黑人经历，但事实并非如此。
.
。
.
。
We often reduce things to race that aren’t all racial, right?
我们经常将不全是种族的事物简化为种族，对吗？
Whether I can say — there’s only one time I’ve ever been accused of stealing something from a store that I did not in fact steal, which is often talked about as a ubiquitous experience for black men, black people in general.
我是否可以说“——”只有一次我被指控从一家商店偷了一些实际上不是我偷的东西，这通常被认为是黑人、一般黑人的普遍经历。
It’s only happened once.
只发生过一次。
I’ve been living in New York for 10 years, and I buy a lot of stuff from delis, and I’ve lived in Harlem, and I’ve lived above Harlem in Hamilton Heights and the kinds of neighborhoods where a black teen might be accused of this kind of thing and so forth.
我在纽约生活了 10 年，从熟食店买了很多东西，我住在哈莱姆区，也住在哈莱姆区上方的汉密尔顿高地，以及黑人青少年可能会被指控犯有此类行为的社区，等等。
Is that partly because I have a certain look?
部分原因是因为我有某种外表吗？
Even if I dress shabbily, I have a certain vaguely nonthreatening look?
即使我穿着破烂，我也有一种隐隐约约的不具威胁性的样子？
Although, for some reason, it’s enough to make employees at TED feel unsafe, but not deli owners in Harlem.
尽管出于某种原因，这足以让 TED 的员工感到不安全，但哈莱姆区的熟食店老板却不会。
I think there’s something to that.
我认为这是有原因的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
On being biracial and pegged as young
关于混血儿和年轻时的定位
Do you think being half Puerto Rican has given you additional or different insight into racism?
您认为拥有一半波多黎各血统是否让您对种族主义有更多或不同的见解？
If so, what?
如果是这样，那又怎样？
It’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
I think there may be something to the idea that kids who are products of interracial unions are more drawn towards the idea that race isn’t all that important.
我认为，跨种族结合的孩子更容易被种族并不那么重要的想法所吸引，这可能是有道理的。
Because if you grow up in a scenario, especially if you grow up with two happy, loving parents, as I did, who are clearly of different races and different cultures and so forth — my mother grew up speaking Spanish, and my dad was as American as you could get — it becomes difficult to believe that there are deep dividing lines between groups of people, because your immediate context says otherwise.
因为如果你在这样的场景中长大，特别是如果你像我一样有两个幸福、慈爱的父母长大，他们显然来自不同的种族和不同的文化等等 ——我的母亲是说西班牙语长大的，而我的父亲是你能想到的美国人——你就很难相信不同群体之间存在深刻的分界线，因为你的直接背景是相反的。
The two people that are most important, your parents, have formed the deepest union any two people can form.
最重要的两个人，即你的父母，已经形成了任何两个人都可以形成的最深厚的结合。
It belies the notion, it belies the people that would want to tell you that there are important divisions between the races.
它掩盖了这个概念，它掩盖了那些想告诉你种族之间存在重要分歧的人。
Insofar as that’s part of my experience, I think it’s possibly influenced me.
就我经历的一部分而言，我认为它可能影响了我。
The white conservatives who are your fans, what do you think they’re most likely to get wrong about race?
作为你的粉丝的白人保守派，你认为他们在种族问题上最有可能犯错什么？
That’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
That’s a very good question.
这是一个很好的问题。
And then I’ll ask you about the libertarians and whether the conservatives and libertarians get the same things wrong.
然后我会问你关于自由主义者的问题，以及保守派和自由主义者是否犯了同样的错误。
That’s a stumper.
这是一个难题。
Is there some way in which you feel uncomfortable by their embrace of you?
他们对你的拥抱是否让你感到不舒服？
They haven’t quite earned the opinion in a way you might feel you have?
他们还没有像您认为的那样完全赢得意见？
Or that doesn’t enter into it?
或者说这不属于其中？
No, I feel that sometimes.
不，我有时也有这样的感觉。
I feel a kind of undeveloped discomfort and inarticulable discomfort with some of the people that like me.
对于一些喜欢我的人，我感到一种未开发的不适和难以言表的不适。
I couldn’t exactly say why, but yes, it does come from some sense that the opinion is unearned, or that what is an opinion I’ve come to with great emotional weight and, frankly, psychological wrestling is an opinion that they’ve come to reflexively.
我不能确切地说出为什么，但是，是的，这确实来自于某种感觉，即这种意见是不劳而获的，或者是我带着巨大的情感分量得出的意见，坦率地说，心理斗争是他们本能地得出的意见。
That doesn’t sit well with me.
这对我来说不太合适。
In some sense, I would prefer — it makes me feel better about my message if I feel people who wouldn’t otherwise come to the views that I have are coming to it, not reluctantly, but knowing the counterarguments against it and taking them seriously.
从某种意义上说，我更愿意——如果我觉得那些原本不会同意我观点的人会接受我的观点，而不是不情愿，而是知道反对它的反对意见并认真对待它们，这会让我对我的信息感觉更好。
I feel a kind of undeveloped discomfort and inarticulable discomfort with some of the people that like me.
对于一些喜欢我的人，我感到一种未开发的不适和难以言表的不适。
I couldn’t exactly say why, but yes, it does come from some sense that the opinion is unearned, or that what is an opinion I’ve come to with great emotional weight and, frankly, psychological wrestling is an opinion that they’ve come to reflexively.
我不能确切地说出为什么，但是，是的，这确实来自于某种感觉，即这种意见是不劳而获的，或者是我带着巨大的情感分量得出的意见，坦率地说，心理斗争是他们本能地得出的意见。
That doesn’t sit well with me.
这对我来说不太合适。
Taking, for instance, just the fact and kind of sanctity of the legacy of racism in black culture as a meme.
例如，将黑人文化中种族主义遗产的事实和神圣性视为模因。
Taking all of that seriously and, nevertheless, coming to the opinion that basically the dominant narrative on race is importantly wrong sits better for me than someone that takes it reflexively and without fully appreciating the counterargument.
认真对待所有这些，并且认为关于种族的主流叙述基本上是错误的，这对我来说比那些本能地接受它并且没有充分理解反驳的人更好。
To the extent that white conservatives over-index on that way of engaging with me, it does make me uncomfortable.
在某种程度上，白人保守派过度重视这种与我交往的方式，这确实让我感到不舒服。
However, if I had stopped doing things that made me uncomfortable, I never would have gotten to where I am right now.
然而，如果我停止做那些让我不舒服的事情，我永远不会达到现在的水平。
I think that is one of the biggest things stopping many black people, and people of color in general, from agreeing with me publicly, is not that they disagree with me privately, it’s that they don’t want to tolerate those same feelings of discomfort from the white conservatives who will agree with them.
我认为，阻止许多黑人和一般有色人种公开同意我的最大因素之一，并不是他们私下不同意我的观点，而是他们不想容忍那些同意他们观点的白人保守派带来的同样的不适感。
I’ve made the choice that I’m willing to tolerate that discomfort, and I think that’s the right decision.
我已经做出了选择，我愿意忍受这种不适，我认为这是正确的决定。
How do ageism and racism interact?
年龄歧视和种族主义如何相互作用？
It’s a common racist trope to take a young black male and call him “boy,” historically.
从历史上看，将年轻的黑人男性称为“男孩”是一种常见的种族主义比喻。
I’ve noticed sometimes when people talk about you, maybe it’s me that’s off, but they say pretty often that you’re “young” or “very young.” You’re not actually that young anymore.
我注意到有时当人们谈论你时，也许是我不对劲，但他们经常说你“年轻”或“非常年轻”。其实你已经不再那么年轻了。
Do you feel people see you as too young in part because of racial issues, or is there some underlying condescension when people refer to you as “young”?
你是否觉得人们认为你太年轻，部分原因是种族问题，或者当人们称你“年轻”时，是否存在某种潜在的屈尊？
Or you just don’t notice or don’t think any of that’s there?
或者你只是没有注意到或不认为其中有任何东西？
I don’t think that it’s a racial issue.
我不认为这是一个种族问题。
For example, when I started playing with Mingus Band, which is on most nights a majority black band — it certainly was in those days — I would always be introduced as “young,” even up to the point when I was like 24.
例如，当我开始与 Mingus Band 一起演奏时，该乐队在大多数晚上都是以黑人为主的乐队 ——“在那些日子里确实如此”—— 我总是被介绍为“年轻”，甚至在我 24 岁的时候也是如此。
I guess it was a relative thing because most guys in the band were older.
我想这是一个相对的事情，因为乐队中的大多数人都比较老。
But there was just this general phenomenon of youth worship that I do dislike about — I don’t know if it’s American culture or if this is the same everywhere.
但我确实不喜欢这种普遍的青少年崇拜现象——我不知道这是美国文化还是各地都一样。
I don’t really like that we put 17-year-old activists on TV if their school was shot up.
我真的不喜欢我们让 17 岁的活动人士上电视，如果他们的学校遭到枪击的话。
I think it’s a disservice to them.
我认为这对他们来说是一种伤害。
To that extent, I don’t really like being praised because I’m young, because there’s a part of me that worries that people are correcting, giving me a mulligan on certain things because I’m younger.
从这个意义上说，我真的不喜欢因为我年轻而受到赞扬，因为我内心有一部分担心人们会纠正我，因为我年轻而在某些事情上给我重新考虑。
I don’t like even the intimation of false praise.
我什至不喜欢虚假赞美的暗示。
So there’s that.
就是这样。
However, I don’t think it’s a racial issue.
不过，我不认为这是种族问题。
In fact, I would — probably it’s the opposite, in the sense — I hear many more people complaining that black children are viewed as older than they in fact are.
事实上，我会——从某种意义上说，可能恰恰相反——我听到更多的人抱怨黑人孩子被认为比实际年龄大。
Like the case of Tamir Rice, who was 12 but actually did come across as much older than 12.
就像塔米尔·赖斯 (Tamir Rice) 的例子一样，他当时 12 岁，但实际上看起来比 12 岁还要大。
In other words, teenagers being seen as adults is probably the bigger issue.
换句话说，青少年被视为成年人可能是更大的问题。
On things over- and underrated
关于被高估和低估的事情
Are you game for a round of overrated versus underrated?
您是否准备进行一轮高估与低估的比赛？
Of course.
当然。
These are easy ones, of course.
当然，这些都是简单的。
Easy to you, maybe.
也许对你来说很容易。
No, very easy.
不，非常容易。
The West Village: overrated or underrated?
西村：被高估还是被低估？
Underrated based on how much time I spend there, though a lot of that time is admittedly spent at the Comedy Cellar.
根据我在那里度过的时间，我被低估了，尽管不可否认，大部分时间都是在喜剧地窖度过的。
It’s an amazing, culturally vibrant place.
这是一个令人惊叹的、文化充满活力的地方。
There’s still great music, there’s great comedy, and there is a really beautiful cacophony that goes on there.
仍然有很棒的音乐，有很棒的喜剧，还有非常美丽的刺耳声音。
I wouldn’t trade that for anything; it’s beautiful.
我不会用它来换取任何东西；很美丽。
The Beastie Boys.
野兽男孩。
Overrated.
被高估了。
To me they’re just a bunch of whiners.
对我来说，他们只是一群抱怨者。
I’m very glad to hear you say that.
我很高兴听到你这么说。
I think that they — have they even made really a mark in the history of hip-hop?
我认为他们 — 他们真的在嘻哈历史上留下了印记吗？
I think they came around at a time when people were looking for white rappers and Eminem wasn’t on the scene yet.
我认为他们出现的时候，人们正在寻找白人说唱歌手，而埃米纳姆还没有出现。
That’s right.
这是正确的。
However, Eminem made a very important mark in the sense that I don’t think you could find a single great rapper from the past 20 years that doesn’t cite Eminem as an influence, especially early Eminem.
然而，Eminem 留下了非常重要的印记，我认为过去 20 年里你找不到一位伟大的说唱歌手不受到 Eminem 的影响，尤其是早期的 Eminem。
All of the great black rappers would absolutely give him his due in the lineage, whereas almost no one would cite the Beastie Boys.
所有伟大的黑人说唱歌手绝对都会在血统中给予他应有的尊重，而几乎没有人会引用野兽男孩。
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, overrated or underrated?
卡里姆·阿卜杜尔-贾巴尔，被高估还是被低估？
I would say overrated as a commentator.
我想说作为评论员被高估了。
Perhaps it’s because he’s often writing about things that were within my pet purview, and because we may have disagreements that are small in the big picture but seem large to me.
也许是因为他经常写一些属于我的职权范围内的事情，而且因为我们之间可能存在一些分歧，这些分歧在大局上很小，但在我看来却很大。
He’s much more likely to jump to racism as an explanation for phenomena in the media.
他更有可能跳到种族主义作为对媒体现象的解释。
I do think, in the same way that some people have probably given me some false praise for being young or that’s added to their opinion of me, I think the fact that he’s Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and a former basketball player who happens to have this other skill might lead people to rate his output in that other domain somewhat more highly.
我确实认为，就像有些人可能因为我年轻而给了我一些虚假的赞扬，或者这增加了他们对我的看法一样，我认为他是卡里姆·阿卜杜勒·贾巴尔，并且是一名恰好拥有其他技能的前篮球运动员，这一事实可能会导致人们对他在其他领域的表现给予更高的评价。
Gershwin’s Rhapsody in Blue.
格什温的蓝色狂想曲。
I will go overrated, only because I think it’s been played to death on airplanes, and I think in some way the worst thing that could have happened to it is for it to become the anthem of whichever airline it’s the anthem for.
我会被高估，只是因为我认为这首歌在飞机上已经被玩死了，而且我认为在某种程度上，它可能发生的最糟糕的事情就是它成为任何一家航空公司的国歌。
Frantz Fanon.
弗朗茨·法农.
I would say overrated, in the sense that I really don’t like his idea — I remember almost being offended at the idea of the colonized mind.
我会说被高估了，因为我真的不喜欢他的想法 —— 我记得几乎对被殖民思想的想法感到冒犯。
The idea that a colonized people — that the colonization infects the mind in a way that a colonized person must constantly interrogate whether they are parroting the words of the colonizer or whether they’re actually holding their beliefs in good faith.
被殖民者的思想——被殖民者必须不断地质疑他们是否在重复殖民者的话，或者他们是否真的真诚地坚持自己的信仰。
I remember rejecting that in a very knee-jerk way because it is so easily used as a way of shutting down a person like myself, and I knew from introspection that my own views were not coming from a love of whiteness or white supremacy or something.
我记得我以一种非常下意识的方式拒绝了这一点，因为它很容易被用作关闭像我这样的人的方式，而且我从内省中知道，我自己的观点并不是来自对白人或白人至上之类的热爱。
In fact, I remember as a kid — I remember there’s this meme of the self-hating black person.
事实上，我记得小时候 —— 我记得有一个关于自我憎恨的黑人的模因。
I recall as a kid looking in the mirror and being very happy at what I saw, being very happy that I was black and thinking that, had I been white, that it would look wrong.
我记得小时候看着镜子，对自己所看到的感到非常高兴，对自己是黑人感到非常高兴，并认为如果我是白人，那看起来就会不对劲。
I remember having, frankly, high racial self-esteem as a kid, and I knew that’s not where my opinions were coming from.
坦率地说，我记得小时候有很高的种族自尊心，但我知道这不是我的观点的来源。
What have you learned from Noam Dworman, who’s also been a guest on Conversations with Tyler?
您从诺姆·德沃曼（Noam Dwoman）身上学到了什么，他也是《与泰勒对话》的嘉宾？
I’ve learned a lot from Noam Dworman.
我从诺姆·德沃曼那里学到了很多东西。
One thing I’ve learned is that if you have warmth and humor and charisma, you can get away with being a lot more “disagreeable,” in the psychologist sense, than otherwise.
我学到的一件事是，如果你有热情、幽默和魅力，从心理学家的角度来看，你可以比其他人更“令人不愉快”。
I’ve also learned that there’s such a thing as a bullshit detector, and some people have it in spades and others don’t.
我还了解到，有“废话检测器”这样的东西，有些人确实拥有它，而另一些人却没有。
And Noam does, you’re saying?
你是说诺姆做到了？
Noam has the best bullshit detector that I know.
诺姆拥有我所知道的最好的废话探测器。
The highest batting average of knee-jerk responses to emerging stories being correct, say — both in personal life and in the media.
对新兴故事的下意识反应的最高成功率是正确的，比如说——无论是在个人生活中还是在媒体中。
Knowing when people are lying without strong evidence.
在没有有力证据的情况下知道人们何时撒谎。
What’s your favorite movie?
你最喜欢的电影是什么？
My favorite movie of all time or my favorite recent movie?
我一直以来最喜欢的电影还是我最近最喜欢的电影？
All time.
所有时间。
Well, both.
嗯，两者都有。
All time — start with that.
所有的时间 —— 从那开始。
I’ll say probably my two favorites: I’ll give you two.
我会说我最喜欢的两个：我给你两个。
One would be Interstellar, and one would be Little Miss Sunshine.
一部是《星际穿越》，一部是《阳光小美女》。
Why are those two special?
为什么这两个特别呢？
Interstellar I think is Nolan’s masterpiece.
我认为《星际穿越》是诺兰的代表作。
I’m a big fan of Nolan.
我是诺兰的忠实粉丝。
Many of his movies are the same, but I think he perfected his — calling it a “shtick” is not the right thing, but he perfected his thing with Interstellar.
他的很多电影都是一样的，但我认为他完善了自己的——称其为“噱头”并不正确，但他在《星际穿越》中完善了自己的东西。
It was just a marvelous movie in its marriage of emotionality and the humanity of Matthew McConaughey’s character and the abstract playing-with-time thing that Nolan likes to do.
这是一部精彩的电影，它结合了马修·麦康纳角色的情感和人性，以及诺兰喜欢做的抽象的玩弄时间的事情。
For example, his early movie Memento I think over-indexes on the fun of the playing with time without enough real raw human emotion, and I think Interstellar strikes the perfect balance.
例如，他的早期电影《记忆碎片》我认为过度强调了玩弄时间的乐趣，而没有足够真实的原始人类情感，而我认为《星际穿越》达到了完美的平衡。
Little Miss Sunshine I would say is a perfect film, in my view.
在我看来，《阳光小美女》是一部完美的电影。
It’s hard to say why, but it makes me cry almost every time I watch it.
很难说为什么，但几乎每次看都会让我哭。
It’s a story of a lot of shitty people.
这是一个关于很多坏人的故事。
I guess that’s one thing that’s interesting about it.
我想这是其中有趣的一件事。
Basically, everyone except for the young girl in the movie is kind of a shitty person.
基本上，除了电影中的小女孩之外，每个人都是卑鄙的人。
The mom is constantly angry for no reason; the husband’s a fraud and a bit of a car salesman and a fake success.
妈妈总是无缘无故地生气；丈夫是个骗子，有点像汽车推销员，是个假成功者。
The son is an asshole who only cares about himself.
儿子是个只顾自己的混蛋。
Steve Carell’s character is maudlin and depressed.
史蒂夫·卡瑞尔饰演的角色多愁善感且抑郁。
They all have character traits that you should 100 percent avoid, but by the end of the movie, they have to come together around this thing that — it should be totally meaningless, and then it erupts in a totally inappropriate dance at the end.
他们都有你应该百分百避免的性格特征，但到了电影的结尾，他们必须围绕着这件事聚集在一起——这应该是完全没有意义的，然后在最后爆发出一场完全不合适的舞蹈。
It’s just a perfect film.
这只是一部完美的电影。
On why black Americans are voting more Republican
为什么美国黑人更多地投票给共和党
I have a few questions about politics.
我有几个关于政治的问题。
Why are more blacks voting Republican these days?
为什么现在越来越多的黑人投票给共和党？
Is that mainly a Trump thing or a more permanent shift?
这主要是特朗普的事情还是一个更永久的转变？
Well, this is a very tricky issue.
嗯，这是一个非常棘手的问题。
I’m not actually sure what the trend is.
我实际上不确定趋势是什么。
One thing is that it predates 2020; Trump got more of the black vote in 2020 than he did in 2016.
有一件事是它早于 2020 年；特朗普在 2020 年获得的黑人选票比 2016 年还要多。
Something was going on in the first term that started the trend.
第一学期发生的一些事情引发了这一趋势。
It could have just been the economy was great.
可能只是经济状况良好。
It could have also been a Trump effect in that people on the Left talk about Trump’s racism as one big phenomenon, but really his problem was always with immigrants.
这也可能是特朗普效应，因为左翼人士将特朗普的种族主义视为一个大现象，但实际上他的问题始终与移民有关。
And his denigrating comments, at least the ones that are confirmed and on the record, almost all of them were directed at immigrants, not black Americans.
而他的诽谤性言论，至少是那些被证实并记录在案的言论，几乎全部都是针对移民，而不是美国黑人。
Black Americans are roughly as broadly anti-immigration as white Americans, and so the apparent paradox is that Trump is this “racist,” but black people seem to be going towards him in greater and greater numbers.
美国黑人与美国白人大致一样广泛地反移民，因此明显的悖论是，特朗普是这样的“种族主义者”，但黑人似乎越来越多地支持他。
Well, his racism, to the extent you’d agree it’s racism, has always been directed at immigrants, not at black people, by and large.
好吧，他的种族主义，在某种程度上你会同意这是种族主义，总的来说一直是针对移民，而不是黑人。
He passed lots of policies in his first term that on their face seem very pro-black.
他在第一个任期内通过了许多政策，从表面上看，这些政策似乎非常支持黑人。
The First Step Act was very progressive criminal justice reform; making funding for historically black colleges automatic.
《第一步法案》是非常进步的刑事司法改革；为历史悠久的黑人大学提供自动资助。
These are things that, had Obama done them, he’d have been lampooned by the Right as playing identity politics — and, in a way, that’s why Trump was able to do them and Obama wasn’t.
这些事情，如果奥巴马做到了，他会被右翼讽刺为玩身份政治——在某种程度上，这就是为什么特朗普能够做到这些，而奥巴马却不能。
There’s all of that, and then there’s just the fact that Biden is a uniquely especially weak candidate.
所有这些，还有一个事实是，拜登是一位特别特别弱的候选人。
Then there’s this theory, of course, that the indictments have led to a rallying around Trump from within the black community because he seems to be unfairly persecuted, and being unfairly persecuted by the criminal justice system may be something that resonates with black people.
当然，还有一种理论认为，起诉书导致黑人社区内部团结起来支持特朗普，因为他似乎受到了不公平的迫害，而受到刑事司法系统的不公平迫害可能会引起黑人的共鸣。
I don’t actually know that that’s true, but you put it all together and you can see how such a trend might ensue.
我实际上不知道这是真的，但你把所有这些放在一起，你就可以看到这种趋势是如何发生的。
Do you think there are any common patterns of political views amongst black jazz musicians?
您认为黑人爵士音乐家之间有什么共同的政治观点模式吗？
Obviously, a lot of diversity, but on average, what do you observe?
显然，有很多多样性，但平均而言，您观察到了什么？
On average, black jazz musicians that I know are frankly probably more in the conservative Democrat domain than many people would assume.
坦率地说，平均而言，我认识的黑人爵士音乐家可能比许多人想象的更多地属于保守的民主党领域。
This is not always widely talked about, but black Americans in general are the most conservative wing of the Democratic base, in the sense that almost all black people vote Democrat, but there’s quite a high degree of social conservatism, conservative viewpoints on things like immigration and so forth.
这并不总是被广泛谈论，但美国黑人总体上是民主党基础中最保守的一派，从某种意义上说，几乎所有黑人都投票给民主党，但社会保守主义程度相当高，在移民等问题上持保守观点。
If you’re white and you have those views, you go to the Republican Party.
如果你是白人并且有这些观点，你就会加入共和党。
If you’re black and you have those views, you probably don’t go to the Republican Party; you probably just vote Democrat with basically a conservative ideology — and that’s a third of black Americans.
如果你是黑人并且有这些观点，你可能不会加入共和党；你会选择加入共和党。你可能只是以保守的意识形态投票给民主党——而那是美国黑人的三分之一。
I would say that there’s a lot of black jazz musicians that fall into that category, quiet as it’s kept.
我想说，有很多黑人爵士乐音乐家都属于这一类，尽管他们保持安静。
On the mores of black hip-hop
论黑人嘻哈音乐的风尚
In black hip-hop, there seems to be a lot of gender conflict and gender divides.
在黑人嘻哈音乐中，似乎存在很多性别冲突和性别鸿沟。
Is that reflecting something real, or it’s just an aesthetic in the art?
这是反映了真实的东西，还是只是艺术中的一种美学？
What do you make of that issue?
您对这个问题有何看法？
What do you mean by that?
你这是什么意思？
Men talking about women in a way that many women would find very objectionable.
男人谈论女人的方式会让许多女人感到非常反感。
I think it’s higher in black hip-hop than white hip-hop, but feel free to contradict me.
我认为黑人嘻哈音乐比白人嘻哈音乐更高，但请随意反驳我。
Yes, I would agree it’s higher in black hip-hop.
是的，我同意黑人嘻哈音乐的比例更高。
I was always amused when I was in college that there was a very intense variety of feminism around, but some of those same women would go to, say, a Trippie Redd concert or an XXXTentacion concert and hear some of the most brutally misogynist lyrics that have ever been written in any song, without any contradiction .
当我上大学时，我总是觉得很有趣，因为周围有各种各样的女权主义，但其中一些女性会去听 Trippie Redd 音乐会或 XXXTentacion 音乐会，听到一些在任何歌曲中写过的最残酷的厌恶女性主义的歌词，没有任何矛盾。
There was, I guess, this unspoken sense that if you’re a black man, it’s OK to say those things, or that it’s not really meant, or that who cares.
我想，有一种不言而喻的感觉，如果你是一个黑人，可以说这些话，或者这不是真正的意思，或者谁在乎。
Whereas if a white artist had said the same thing, there would be a bevy of articles the next day.
而如果一个白人艺术家说了同样的话，第二天就会有一堆文章。
I’m not exactly sure what is behind that trend, but I have to think that the success of someone like Drake is partly because he bucks that trend.
我不太确定这种趋势背后的原因是什么，但我必须认为像德雷克这样的人的成功部分是因为他逆袭了这种趋势。
Like, women love Drake.
就像，女人喜欢德雷克。
Drake is the most popular rapper to ever exist.
德雷克是有史以来最受欢迎的说唱歌手。
I think one thing that makes him popular is the very fact that he was squarely within the tradition and school, being a disciple of Lil Wayne — the school that said the worst possible things, the most dismissive, misogynist possible things.
我认为让他受欢迎的一件事是，他完全符合传统和学派，是李尔·韦恩（Lil Wayne）的弟子——这个学派说的是最糟糕的事情，最轻蔑、最厌恶女性的事情。
He was accepted and loved at that school, but the route he went was to say things — to make music for women.
他在那所学校被接受并受到爱戴，但他走的路是说事——为女性创作音乐。
To say things that were sweet to women.
对女人说些甜言蜜语的话。
Not to say that that’s all he says, but he really bucked the trend and in that sense was vulnerable to the critique that he was soft and feminine, which is the greatest possible sin, you would think, in the rap world, but actually led to the greatest possible success.
并不是说这就是他所说的全部，但他确实逆潮流而行，从这个意义上说，他很容易受到批评，认为他是软弱和女性化的，你会认为这是说唱世界中可能最大的罪恶，但实际上带来了最大可能的成功。
In the 19th century, it seems that Beethoven and also Queen Victoria were especially popular with a lot of black communities in the United States.
在19世纪，贝多芬和维多利亚女王似乎特别受到美国许多黑人社区的欢迎。
Should we think that strange, or you find that intuitive?
我们应该认为这很奇怪，还是你觉得这很直观？
I’ve heard it said among the conspiracies in the Hotep world that Beethoven “is black.” That’s something that some people believe.
我在霍特普世界的阴谋中听人说过，贝多芬“是黑人”。这是一些人所相信的。
I’m not putting my name to that.
我不会说出我的名字。
I have nothing else to say about that.
对此我无话可说。
That’s interesting, though.
不过，这很有趣。
Here’s a reader question, and I quote: “For other men who share your political views, what’s your advice on dating women?
这是一个读者问题，我引用一下：“对于其他与你分享政治观点的男性，你对与女性约会有什么建议？
It’s hard to find ones who are not woke and not socially ignorant, crazy conspiracy theorists at the same time.”
很难找到那些既不觉醒又不对社会无知、疯狂的阴谋论者。”
My advice would be, do not talk about politics on the first date.
我的建议是，不要在第一次约会时谈论政治。
In fact, I would say don’t raise it at all.
事实上，我会说根本不要提出它。
It will inevitably come up, but delay the time that it comes up as long as possible.
它不可避免地会出现，但尽可能推迟它出现的时间。
You’re not there to discuss politics.
你不是来讨论政治的。
You’re there to meet a woman that might potentially be a life partner, right?
你去那里是为了遇见一个可能成为终身伴侣的女人，对吧？
Insofar as you go on a first date and a second date and you begin to like each other’s nonpolitical attributes, once politics comes up and there are differences between you two, you may be surprised in her ability to tolerate those political differences once she’s realized that she likes a lot of your nonpolitical attributes.
当你们进行第一次约会和第二次约会时，你们开始喜欢对方的非政治属性，一旦政治问题出现并且你们两人之间存在差异，一旦她意识到她喜欢你的很多非政治属性，你可能会惊讶于她容忍这些政治差异的能力。
And in fact, she may surprise herself in her ability to tolerate different opinions, and you may surprise yourself.
事实上，她可能会惊讶于她容忍不同意见的能力，你也可能会惊讶自己。
On the Coleman Hughes production function
关于科尔曼休斯生产函数
Let me now turn to the Coleman Hughes production function.
现在让我谈谈科尔曼休斯生产函数。
I hope you don’t feel this is unmerited praise, but what makes you so good at so many things?
我希望你不要觉得这是不值得的赞扬，但是是什么让你在这么多事情上如此擅长呢？
What’s your simplest theory of that?
你最简单的理论是什么？
I guess I’ve always had a monomaniacal focus on the things I do like.
我想我一直偏执地专注于我喜欢的事情。
I’m bad at a lot of things that I just never do.
我不擅长很多我从来没有做过的事情。
You think you’re good at learning curves for the things you do?
你认为你擅长学习你所做的事情的曲线吗？
Yes; however, it’s not really — that’s a false way to frame it.
是的;然而，这并不是真的——这是一种错误的框架方式。
The way to frame it is that I’ve invested heavily in the things where my learning curve was naturally the best.
框架的方式是，我在那些我的学习曲线自然是最好的事情上投入了大量资金。
For instance, I tried to switch to trumpet when I was 17, but I was no good at it.
例如，我在17岁时尝试转吹小号，但我并不擅长。
When I started playing trombone, I got good fairly quickly, and so I invested and tripled down in the areas where I was learning fastest.
当我开始演奏长号时，我很快就学得很好，所以我在学得最快的领域投入了三倍。
I used to be very into languages.
我曾经非常喜欢语言。
I was good, not great.
我很好，但不是很好。
I ditched it completely when I was 12.
我12岁时彻底放弃了它。
I guess I’ve tripled down on the areas where I have the highest natural genetic advantage as an individual.
我想我已经在我个人拥有最高自然遗传优势的领域投入了三倍的精力。
This extreme willingness to specialize, where do you think it comes from?
这种极端的专业化意愿，你认为它来自哪里？
You were born with it?
你是生来就有的吗？
You developed it?
你开发的？
Your parents taught you, or —
你的父母教过你，或者 ——
No, born with it, 100 percent.
不，是天生的，100%。
I’ve always had just an intense natural desire to focus on whatever I want to get good at, to the exclusion of almost everything else.
我总是有一种强烈的自然欲望，想要专注于我想擅长的事情，而排除几乎所有其他事情。
You think your jazz education and background has helped you when you have to improvise — when you’re podcasting, giving a public talk, or otherwise in the public arena?
您认为当您必须即兴创作时，您的爵士乐教育和背景对您有帮助吗？当您在播客、进行公开演讲或在公共场合进行其他活动时？
Not at all.
一点也不。
Hasn’t helped me in the speaking domain one bit.
在口语领域对我没有一点帮助。
What it did do, I think, is that growing up so deeply in the jazz world — which is very diverse, multiracial, multinational — advertised the possibility of true deep interracial friendship and interracial working with people of different cultures and not seeing anything weird about that, towards a common goal and towards a common passion.
我认为，它的作用在于，在爵士乐世界——这是一个非常多元化、多种族、跨国的——中成长得如此之深，宣告了与不同文化的人们建立真正深厚的跨种族友谊和跨种族合作的可能性，并且没有看到任何奇怪的事情，朝着共同的目标和共同的激情。
I think not everyone has that.
我想不是每个人都有这个。
What is your most unusual successful work habit?
您最不寻常的成功工作习惯是什么？
Most unusual successful work habit.
最不寻常的成功工作习惯。
I don’t know if I have any unusual successful work habits.
我不知道我是否有什么不同寻常的成功工作习惯。
They’re successful, but they’re not unusual?
他们很成功，但他们并不罕见？
Or they’re unusual, but they’re not successful?
或者他们很不寻常，但并不成功？
Like I said, I can be very monomaniacally focused on things.
就像我说的，我可能非常偏执地专注于事物。
It’s possible, for instance, for me to accidentally skip meals because I’m working, and I don’t get hungry.
例如，我可能会因为工作而不小心不吃饭，而且我不会饿。
It used to be very hard for me to stop or get interrupted.
过去我很难停下来或被打扰。
I’ve gotten a little bit better at that and become a more balanced person, but I would say working for long stretches of time with no break at all — as opposed to what might be more common advice, which is every hour take a 20-minute break.
我在这方面已经进步了一些，成为了一个更加平衡的人，但我想说的是长时间工作而不休息 ——而不是更常见的建议，即每小时休息 20 分钟。
What do you think you optimize for?
您认为您优化的目的是什么？
When I work?
我什么时候工作？
No, in life.
不，在生活中。
Oh.
哦。
I like to think that I optimize for happiness broadly construed: not just pleasure or joy, but a balanced amount of that mixed with meaning.
我喜欢认为我优化了广义上的幸福：不仅仅是快乐或快乐，而是与意义混合的平衡量。
I’m definitely of the school that, though I work a lot, I don’t think that work is life.
我绝对属于那种虽然我工作很多，但我不认为工作就是生活的人。
I would like to have a family and do all of that.
我想拥有一个家庭并实现这一切。
I try to optimize for being a balanced and happy human being.
我努力优化自己，成为一个平衡且快乐的人。
I think that’s a good thing, because to get too into the world I’m in with politics and debate and so forth can be taxing and toxic without balance.
我认为这是一件好事，因为过多地融入我所处的世界中的政治和辩论等可能会在不平衡的情况下造成负担和有毒。
What do you think is the fundamental reason why that world can be so toxic?
你认为这个世界如此有毒的根本原因是什么？
I guess where other things in life value or incentivize a relaxed, open-minded, and loving attitude — things such as music — the incentives in the domain of public conversation about politics are towards nastiness, in a way, towards dissatisfaction.
我猜想，生活中的其他事物都看重或激励一种轻松、开放和充满爱心的态度——比如音乐——而在有关政治的公共对话领域中，在某种程度上，激励因素是指向肮脏的、指向不满的。
You’re supposed to point out the thing you’re pissed about.
你应该指出你生气的事情。
Whereas in other domains in life, such as at church or with your family, you are supposed to think about the thing you are grateful for.
而在生活的其他领域，例如在教堂或与家人在一起时，您应该考虑您值得感激的事情。
It’s a kind of precise turning on its head of the wise lessons about how you should spend your time and attention for your own happiness, inverted to maximize the toxic things.
这是一种对关于你应该如何花费时间和注意力来获得自己的幸福的明智教训的精确转变，颠倒过来以最大化有毒的东西。
Could you imagine a world where you just say “goodbye to politics,” do something else, and you’re simply happier?
你能想象一个世界，只要你说“再见政治”，做点别的事情，你就会变得更快乐吗？
I think the truth is, if I wanted to do that, I would have done it.
我认为事实是，如果我想这么做，我就会这么做。
And vice versa: If I wanted to not do music at all and just go fully into it, I think I would have done that too.
反之亦然：如果我根本不想做音乐而只是全身心投入其中，我想我也会这样做。
I think the truth is, when I was a full-time musician, gigging trombone every night, I had an itch to scratch that was not getting scratched.
我认为事实是，当我还是一名全职音乐家，每晚演奏长号时，我有一种渴望去抓挠但又不被抓挠的感觉。
For instance, when I was at Juilliard, I would go to the music library and try to pull out books about philosophy, and when I was at Columbia, I was always itching to get off campus and go play some music.
例如，当我在茱莉亚学院时，我会去音乐图书馆并尝试找出有关哲学的书籍，而当我在哥伦比亚大学时，我总是渴望离开校园去演奏一些音乐。
They’re just two sides of me that both need to be fed.
它们只是我的两个侧面，都需要喂养。
Before the final question, let me just repeat: Coleman Hughes, The End of Race Politics: Arguments for a Colorblind America, which I enjoyed very much.
在最后一个问题之前，让我重复一遍：科尔曼休斯，《种族政治的终结：色盲美国的争论》，我非常喜欢这本书。
Very last question, Coleman: What will you do next?
最后一个问题，科尔曼：接下来你会做什么？
What will I do next?
接下来我要做什么？
Well, I’m going to keep doing my podcast.
好吧，我会继续做我的播客。
I’ll probably write another book, and I will continue to play music, perhaps take up a new instrument, and continue optimizing for happiness.
我可能会写另一本书，我会继续演奏音乐，也许会使用一种新乐器，并继续优化幸福。
Coleman Hughes, thank you very much.
科尔曼休斯，非常感谢你。
Thank you, Tyler.
谢谢你，泰勒。
Photo Credit: Evan Mann
照片来源：埃文·曼