Claire Lehmann on Speaking Freely (Ep. 48)
I’m here today with Claire Lehmann, who is the founder and editor of Quillette, an online magazine.
今天我和克莱尔·莱曼 (Claire Lehmann) 一起来到这里，她是在线杂志 Quillette 的创始人兼编辑。
Claire is coming to us from Sydney, Australia.
克莱尔从澳大利亚悉尼来到我们这里。
But today, we’re right here in San Francisco.
但今天，我们就在旧金山。
Thank you for coming, Claire.
谢谢你的到来，克莱尔。
Thanks for having me, Tyler.
谢谢你邀请我，泰勒。
Let me start with my first question, a very difficult one.
让我从第一个问题开始，这是一个非常困难的问题。
Quillette has published a lot of articles criticizing what you might call the side of political correctness.
奎莱特发表了很多文章批评所谓的政治正确性。
What would be an example where you would actually side with the people trying to make things more politically correct?
您实际上会站在那些试图使事情变得更加政治正确的人们一边的例子是什么？
On political correctness
论政治正确
I agree with civility.
我同意文明。
If people define political correctness as being civil and being polite, then I’m on that side.
如果人们将政治正确定义为文明和礼貌，那么我就站在那一边。
I’m on the side of not being aggressively provocative and overly polemical with one’s perceived political opponents.
我赞成不要对自己认为的政治对手进行积极挑衅和过度争论。
But I don’t really think that’s what political correctness is.
但我真的不认为这就是政治正确。
I think political correctness is the restraint on inquiry.
我认为政治正确就是对探究的限制。
However, a lot of people define it as just being nice and being civil and respectful.
然而，很多人将其定义为友善、文明和尊重。
If we were to just go on that definition, I’m in perfect agreement with being nice and being respectful.
如果我们继续这个定义，我完全同意友善和尊重。
We both agree, in the past and still the present, racism has been a problem.
我们都同意，无论过去还是现在，种族主义一直是一个问题。
Gay individuals have not been treated well.
同性恋者并没有受到良好的对待。
If someone wants to make the norms tougher, but they honestly told us, “You can never fine-tune a norm.
如果有人想让规范变得更严格，但他们诚实地告诉我们，“你永远无法微调规范。
A norm will either be too tough or not tough enough.” And they say, “I’d rather the norms against racists, in a sense, be too tough and maybe catch some cases that don’t deserve to be caught because that’s the only choice we have.
规范要么太严格，要么不够严格。”他们说，“从某种意义上说，我宁愿针对种族主义者的规范过于严厉，也许会发现一些不值得发现的案件，因为这是我们唯一的选择。
In the past, injustices have been so great.”
过去，不公平现象实在是太严重了。”
What would you say?
你会说什么？
You think we can fine-tune the norm in accord with reason?
你认为我们可以合理地调整规范吗？
The social norms?
社会规范？
Right.
正确的。
If someone says, “I agree.
如果有人说：“我同意。
It’s too tough.
太难了。
There are unfair cases of people being punished.
人们受到惩罚的不公平情况存在。
But the norm has to be too tough,” why is that wrong?
但规范必须太严格了，”为什么这是错误的呢？
I think having social norms that frown upon racism and sexism are very important and useful.
我认为制定反对种族主义和性别歧视的社会规范非常重要且有用。
But when we talk about political correctness, we’re not really talking about social norms.
但当我们谈论政治正确时，我们并不是真正在谈论社会规范。
We’re talking about people being punished for asking questions and expressing doubt and expressing uncertainty.
我们谈论的是人们因提出问题、表达怀疑和表达不确定性而受到惩罚。
The norms are just overactive.
这些规范只是过于活跃。
They’re hyperactive.
他们非常活跃。
The norms where expressing a racial epithet and using race to insult someone—there should be a taboo against that.
表达种族绰号和利用种族来侮辱某人的规范——应该有禁忌。
But I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about when we’re talking about political correctness.
但我认为，当我们谈论政治正确时，我们谈论的并不是这个。
We’re talking about the tool that’s used to stop people from having independent thought and asking questions about social phenomena and questioning some of the more simplistic narratives that get presented around issues of gender and race.
我们谈论的是用于阻止人们进行独立思考、提出有关社会现象的问题以及质疑围绕性别和种族问题提出的一些更简单化叙述的工具。
The norms that prevent people from using race or gender as an insult, I don’t think they’re too tough.
阻止人们使用种族或性别作为侮辱的规范，我认为它们并不太严厉。
I think that they’re perfectly reasonable.
我认为他们是完全合理的。
There’s a recent example: Scarlett Johansson was slated to play a transgender character in a movie.
最近有一个例子：斯嘉丽约翰逊计划在一部电影中扮演变性人角色。
She is not herself transgender.
她本人并不是跨性别者。
Many people complained.
很多人抱怨。
Now, she has declined the role.
现在，她拒绝了这个角色。
What’s your take on that episode?
您对这一集有何看法？
Should the complaints have come?
投诉应该来吗？
Should she have stepped out of the role?
她应该退出这个角色吗？
That’s a particularly ridiculous episode.
这是一个特别可笑的情节。
I would say that’s a good example of political correctness.
我想说这是政治正确的一个很好的例子。
You’ve got a tiny, tiny minority population that is transgender individuals.
你有一个非常非常小的少数群体，他们是跨性别者。
Among transgender individuals, only a small percentage of those are activist.
在跨性别者中，只有一小部分是积极分子。
So it’s the tiniest minority you can think of, but they have all of this political power because they’re very noisy.
所以这是你能想到的最小的少数派，但他们拥有所有这些政治权力，因为他们非常吵闹。
The idea that an actress cannot play someone who she isn’t is ludicrous on its face.
认为女演员不能扮演不是她的人的想法从表面上看是可笑的。
That’s the job of an actor, to play someone that they are not.
这就是演员的工作，扮演一个不是他们的人。
Scarlett Johansson will be playing some kind of Russian spy in her next film.
斯嘉丽约翰逊将在她的下一部电影中扮演某种俄罗斯间谍。
Can she not play a Russian spy because she’s not Russian?
难道因为她不是俄罗斯人，她就不能扮演俄罗斯间谍吗？
The example of her being pressured to step out of that role is a good example of how political correctness has metastasized into seeking offense where offense should probably not be taken, inflating perceived slights, overexaggerating the potential harm that might be caused.
她被迫退出这一角色的例子就是一个很好的例子，说明政治正确如何转变为在可能不应该冒犯的地方寻求冒犯，夸大感知到的轻视，过分夸大可能造成的潜在伤害。
I think there’s a lot of that going on in that particular instance.
我认为在那个特定的例子中发生了很多事情。
In the past, as you know, there’s a long history of white actors playing black characters and putting on something like blackface.
如你所知，在过去，白人演员扮演黑人角色并穿上类似黑脸的东西有着悠久的历史。
We just don’t do that anymore.
我们只是不再这样做了。
It doesn’t seem many people are wishing for that to come back.
似乎没有多少人希望这种情况回来。
In the history of transgender characters in movies, they’re usually not played by transgender individuals.
在电影中的跨性别角色历史上，他们通常不是由跨性别者扮演的。
It’s not that Scarlett Johansson is coming after a string of 20 transgender actors/actresses who played transgender characters.
这并不是说斯嘉丽·约翰逊要追随 20 名扮演跨性别角色的跨性别男女演员。
Is it not like white actors putting on blackface to play blacks, and we ought to do much less of it, or maybe none of it?
这难道不是像白人演员把脸换成黑脸来扮演黑人一样，我们应该少做，或者干脆不做吗？
What’s the difference between those cases?
这些案例有什么区别？
That’s an interesting comparison.
这是一个有趣的比较。
I would just imagine that there’s fewer trans actors to choose from, and the whole idea of being transgender is that you can experiment with your gender.
我只是想象，可供选择的跨性别演员越来越少，而跨性别的整个想法就是你可以尝试自己的性别。
You can be gender fluid or nonbinary.
你可以是性别流动的，也可以是非二元性别的。
Being transgender is in itself a performance.
变性本身就是一种表演。
It’s a theatrical act.
这是一场戏剧表演。
However, being black is not a performance.
然而，黑人并不是一种表演。
It’s not theatrical.
这不是戏剧。
I think the performative nature of transgenderism itself should allow a woman like Scarlett Johansson to play a transgender person.
我认为跨性别主义本身的表演性质应该允许像斯嘉丽·约翰逊这样的女性扮演跨性别者。
I have to say, the messaging around transgender activism is very confusing and contradictory.
我不得不说，围绕跨性别行动主义的信息非常令人困惑和矛盾。
On the one hand, we’ve got this discourse around gender fluidity and being nonbinary.
一方面，我们有关于性别流动性和非二元性的讨论。
On the other hand, a woman can’t play a transgender person.
另一方面，女性不能扮演变性人。
It doesn’t make any logical sense to me.
这对我来说没有任何逻辑意义。
Let me try another example on you.
让我在你身上尝试另一个例子。
I was reading the New York Times.
我正在读《纽约时报》。
There was an article by David Bowden, talking about superhero movies and how they’ve revised past myths.
大卫·鲍登 (David Bowden) 发表了一篇文章，谈论超级英雄电影以及它们如何修正过去的神话。
This was just from about a week ago.
这只是大约一周前的事情。
He wrote a sentence: “They rival Mormonism for chutzpah.” Is that an offensive sentence?
他写了一句话：“他们的胆量与摩门教相媲美。”这是一句冒犯的话吗？
Should we be bothered?
我们应该感到烦恼吗？
Should have editors insisted that he take it out?
编辑们应该坚持让他把它删掉吗？
Because you might say, “Well, all religions involve strong claims.
因为你可能会说：“好吧，所有宗教都包含强烈的主张。
To single out Mormonism is unusual.
单独指出摩门教是不寻常的。
It’s treating it as somehow especially weird.”
它认为这在某种程度上特别奇怪。”
There might even be a slight objection to the juxtaposition of Mormonism with chutzpah, a word associated with Judaism in some ways, and Yiddish—almost like a slap in the face that maybe the person writing this is probably himself not a Mormon.
甚至可能有人对将摩门教与“肆无忌惮”（这个词在某种程度上与犹太教有关）和意第绪语并列存在轻微的反对意见——几乎就像打在脸上的一记耳光，也许写这篇文章的人自己可能不是摩门教徒。
Offensive or not?
进攻不进攻？
No, it’s not offensive.
不，这并不令人反感。
I can understand why a Mormon person might find it a little bit offensive, but what we have to remember with these new rules around identity and social justice culture is that they’re not evenly applied, and there’s an asymmetry.
我可以理解为什么摩门教徒可能会觉得它有点冒犯，但我们必须记住这些关于身份和社会正义文化的新规则是它们没有得到均匀的应用，并且存在不对称性。
Whether or not you can be offended by something depends on what identity group you belong to, and being a Mormon would not qualify as being part of an identity group that is entitled to feel offended by slights.
你是否会被某件事冒犯取决于你属于哪个身份群体，而作为摩门教徒并不符合有权因轻蔑而感到冒犯的身份群体的一部分。
Jonathan Haidt has identified about seven victims’ groups who are entitled to feel offended and slighted over sort of microaggressions: women, blacks, Muslims, I think indigenous or native peoples, LGBT, and perhaps immigrants would be another one.
乔纳森·海特（Jonathan Haidt）确定了大约七个受害者群体，他们有权因某种微侵犯而感到被冒犯和轻视：妇女、黑人、穆斯林、我认为原住民或原住民、LGBT，也许还有移民。
If you don’t belong to one of those identity groups, these rules don’t apply.
如果您不属于这些身份群体之一，则这些规则不适用。
When did political correctness become a major issue, or become a major issue again?
政治正确什么时候成为一个大问题，或者再次成为一个大问题？
And why do you think it happened exactly then?
你认为为什么这件事恰好发生在那个时候？
That’s a good question, and I don’t know if I have the answer.
这是个好问题，我不知道我是否有答案。
I know that there were lots of debates around political correctness in the early ’90s, for example.
例如，我知道在 20 世纪 90 年代初期，围绕政治正确性存在很多争论。
Yes, and it seems to fade away and then come back.
是的，它似乎消失了然后又回来了。
Yeah.
是的。
That’s when Camille Paglia was talking about PC, and Robert Hughes had a book, The Culture of Complaint.
就在那时，卡米尔·帕格利亚 (Camille Paglia) 正在谈论个人电脑，而罗伯特·休斯 (Robert Hughes) 则出版了一本书《抱怨文化》。
I’ve noticed in my own life that I started noticing political correctness around 2007.
我在自己的生活中注意到，我在 2007 年左右开始注意到政治正确性。
At the time, I thought it had something to do with the business model of Internet publishing.
当时我觉得这和网络出版的商业模式有关。
That was when Gawker and the blog Jezebel was really popular.
那时 Gawker 和 Jezebel 博客非常流行。
It was established in 2007, and then it got very popular over the next couple of years.
它成立于2007年，在接下来的几年里非常受欢迎。
I thought that there were a lot of clickbait kind of articles promoting these really simplistic black-and-white narratives of oppression.
我认为有很多点击诱饵之类的文章宣扬这些非常简单的压迫的黑白叙述。
Unless one had reasonable critical thinking skills, I could see how young people could be influenced by that kind of content coming out.
除非一个人具有合理的批判性思维能力，否则我可以看到年轻人会如何受到此类内容的影响。
I think there’s something to do with the Internet and the way the media has had to adapt to this new business model where you have to drive .
我认为这与互联网和媒体必须适应这种新的商业模式有关，而你必须推动这种新的商业模式。
.
。
.
。
You have to get lots of views, lots of hits, millions more than you would with the newspapers.
你必须获得大量的浏览量、大量的点击量，比报纸上的浏览量多出数百万次。
I think it’s something to do with that, but that’s probably just one variable in many other factors.
我认为这与此有关，但这可能只是许多其他因素中的一个变量。
What do you think of the hypothesis that political correctness is a kind of virus that’s hijacked the left?
您如何看待政治正确是一种劫持左派的病毒这一假设？
It’s figured out some kind of weak entry point, and it’s come in and taken over parts of it, and it will bring down many victims with it, but actually, it’s crippling the left.
它找到了某种薄弱的切入点，它进来并接管了它的一部分，它会带来许多受害者，但实际上，它正在削弱左派。
Yep, yeah.
是的，是的。
True or false?
是真是假？
Probably true.
也许是真的。
If one objects to that argument, we should in a sense encourage more of it, at least if we’re being pure utilitarians, or not?
如果有人反对这一论点，那么从某种意义上说，我们应该鼓励更多这样的论点，至少如果我们是纯粹的功利主义者，或者不是？
I think the sensible left is necessary and important, and people advocating for marginalized groups, and particularly lower socioeconomic groups, is very important.
我认为明智的左派是必要且重要的，人们倡导边缘化群体，特别是社会经济地位较低的群体，非常重要。
So I think having anything that destroys the left altogether is a bad thing.
所以我认为任何完全摧毁左翼的事情都是一件坏事。
The way I think about it is, imagine that being progressive or being interested in social justice or being left-wing is a form of belief system.
我的想法是，想象进步或对社会正义感兴趣或左翼是一种信仰体系。
The stuff we’re talking about is the fundamentalist version.
我们正在谈论的是原教旨主义版本。
You can have a faith that is moderate and on the whole functions well for the people who believe in it, but then when you get into the extremes and it becomes fundamentalist, that’s when you get the trouble.
你可以有一个温和的信仰，并且总体上对相信它的人来说运作良好，但是当你走向极端并且它变得原教旨主义时，那就是你遇到麻烦的时候。
I think what we call social justice warriors are like the fundamentalists of the progressive faith.
我认为我们所说的社会正义斗士就像进步信仰的原教旨主义者。
What do you think is the closest equivalent to political correctness on the right, the political right?
您认为最接近右翼政治正确性（即政治右翼）的是什么？
It’s different in Australia than it is here, but I would .
澳大利亚的情况与这里不同，但我愿意。
.
。
.
。
Sure.
当然。
Start with either place.
从任一地方开始。
Yeah, OK.
是的，好的。
Of course, there are dogmas on the right, as well.
当然，右派也有教条。
Questioning patriotism, questioning certain dogmas around economics or the free market.
质疑爱国主义，质疑某些有关经济或自由市场的教条。
In Australia, we’re quite secular, and we don’t really have a very strong Christian conservative contingent, but I imagine here in the US, it’s completely different, and to question certain religious orthodoxies would just be unthinkable in certain communities.
在澳大利亚，我们非常世俗，我们并没有真正强大的基督教保守派队伍，但我想在美国，情况完全不同，质疑某些宗教正统观念在某些社区是不可想象的。
We would agree, I think, that left-wing political correctness is much stronger in academia?
我想，我们会同意左翼政治正确性在学术界要强得多吗？
Yep.
是的。
Probably in the media?
大概是在媒体上吧？
In general, intellectual life, but if you take, say, the United States as a whole, do you think it’s left-wing or right-wing political correctness that’s stronger and more destructive?
一般来说，知识分子生活，但如果你把美国作为一个整体，你认为左翼或右翼的政治正确性更强大、更具破坏性吗？
Yeah, it’s probably right-wing political correctness.
是的，这可能是右翼政治正确性。
That’s worse?
那更糟糕吗？
Yeah, but what I know and what I come up against in my life is left-wing political correctness because I live in an urban center, and I mix with people who are doing their PhDs.
是的，但我所知道的以及我在生活中遇到的是左翼政治正确，因为我住在城市中心，而且我和正在攻读博士学位的人混在一起。
I have friends who are academics, and I’m interested in open inquiry.
我有一些学者朋友，我对公开探究感兴趣。
If you restrict open inquiry on universities, then I’m going to stop paying attention.
如果你限制对大学的公开调查，那么我将不再关注。
If you’re talking about on a national scale, it’s probably right-wing political correctness that is a bigger problem.
如果你在全国范围内谈论，那么右翼政治正确性可能是一个更大的问题。
Can you imagine a Quillette of the future that has more articles criticizing right-wing political correctness, albeit outside of academia, than left-wing political correctness?
你能想象未来的 Quillette 中批评右翼政治正确性的文章（尽管是在学术界之外）比左翼政治正确性更多吗？
Probably not.
可能不会。
Because our audience is the highly educated urban audience, and our audience is not mainland America, where people go to church.
因为我们的观众是受过高等教育的城市观众，而我们的观众不是人们去教堂的美国大陆。
That’s really not who I know, the people that I know, and it’s not who we’re aiming for.
那确实不是我认识的人，我认识的人，也不是我们的目标。
Do you think the Internet gives what one might broadly call the political right a new relative cultural advantage?
您认为互联网是否给人们广泛称之为政治右翼的东西带来了一种新的相对文化优势？
Before the Internet, the left was already pretty well organized through urban elites who live near each other, and now, the Internet has enabled people who are not so urban or not so coastal to suddenly coordinate, and it’s shifted the balance of intellectual influence.
在互联网出现之前，左派已经通过居住在附近的城市精英很好地组织起来，而现在，互联网使那些不那么城市或不那么沿海的人们突然之间能够协调起来，并改变了知识影响力的平衡。
Do you agree with that?
你同意吗？
Yeah, definitely.
是的，绝对是。
I noticed it with myself.
我自己也注意到了。
I live in Sydney, but I know that plenty of people in New York and San Francisco are reading our platform.
我住在悉尼，但我知道纽约和旧金山的很多人正在阅读我们的平台。
Because there’s no barrier to entry, you don’t have to have a PhD.
因为没有进入门槛，所以你不必拥有博士学位。
You can just have some talent, be a good writer with some insights, and you can be viewed or read just as much as a New York Times columnist.
你只要有一些天赋，成为一个有一些见解的好作家，你就可以像《纽约时报》专栏作家一样被关注或阅读。
I definitely think it’s flattened out the hierarchy.
我绝对认为它已经扁平化了层次结构。
The interesting thing is how the Internet has made the right, particularly among younger people, the new counterculture in a way.
有趣的是，互联网如何在某种程度上使右派（尤其是年轻人）成为新的反主流文化。
I’ve been speaking about the right in aggregate terms, but if you think of the effect of the Internet, which strands of the right do you think are favored, and which do you think are falling away because of Internet discourse?
我一直在总体上谈论权利，但是如果你考虑一下互联网的影响，你认为哪些权利会受到青睐，哪些权利会因为网络话语而消失？
Because it shouldn’t favor it all equally, correct?
因为它不应该对所有事情都一视同仁，对吗？
That’s right.
这是正确的。
There’s many different types of right-wing ideology that are coming through via the Internet.
有许多不同类型的右翼意识形态通过互联网传播。
There’s lots of people now self-identifying as classical liberals, and they’re identifying with the English tradition of individualism, free market trade, and civil liberties.
现在有很多人自我认同为古典自由主义者，他们认同英国的个人主义、自由市场贸易和公民自由传统。
When you go further out, there are young people who identify as reactionary or Catholic traditionalists—that’s having a resurgence through the Internet, strangely enough.
当你走得更远时，有些年轻人被认为是反动的或天主教的传统主义者——奇怪的是，这种情况正在通过互联网卷土重来。
But are they favored more than the classical liberals and the free traders?
但他们比古典自由主义者和自由贸易主义者更受青睐吗？
Are the nationalists favored more?
民族主义者更受青睐吗？
Are the populists?
是民粹主义者吗？
What’s your relative assessment of who’s gaining within the right?
您对谁在右派中获胜的相对评估是什么？
I’d have to look at the data and the numbers to make an accurate judgment, but I think that classical liberalism is very strong at the moment through the Internet, and then the nationalists, people who identify as right-wing, but are opposed to free trade dogmas and who want to question immigration, basically.
我必须查看数据和数字才能做出准确的判断，但我认为古典自由主义目前通过互联网非常强大，然后是民族主义者，他们是右翼人士，但反对自由贸易教条，基本上想要质疑移民。
And you think that particular question has been boosted by the Internet as a means of discourse?
您认为互联网作为一种话语手段推动了这个特定问题的发展吗？
Definitely.
确实。
Also in Australia?
也在澳大利亚吗？
Less so in Australia because our immigration is different.
在澳大利亚则不然，因为我们的移民方式不同。
Our immigration policies are different to the US in that we have very high immigration.
我们的移民政策与美国不同，我们的移民数量非常高。
However, we have closed borders, and we have a very tough policy on asylum seekers.
然而，我们关闭了边界，并且对寻求庇护者采取了非常严厉的政策。
So our policy is quite different.
所以我们的政策是完全不同的。
Immigration is always a topic, and it always comes up before any election, but it’s not an Internet thing.
移民始终是一个话题，而且总是在任何选举之前出现，但这不是互联网上的事情。
It’s out in the open, and people talk about it on TV and in the newspapers quite openly.
它是公开的，人们在电视和报纸上相当公开地谈论它。
Whether deserved or not, Australia has a history of being somewhat racist or xenophobic.
无论是否应得，澳大利亚都有种族主义或仇外心理的历史。
In the 1960s, immigration from places other than, say, Great Britain, is quite low.
在 20 世纪 60 年代，来自英国以外地区的移民相当少。
Now, Australians are extremely welcoming of immigration.
现在，澳大利亚人非常欢迎移民。
What is it about how Australia did immigration that accounts for this?
澳大利亚的移民政策到底是怎么造成的呢？
People will debate this question, but I’m quite persuaded by our former prime minister, John Howard’s perspective when he says that the people of Australia will accept very high immigration if they feel that their border is controlled.
人们会争论这个问题，但我很相信我们的前总理约翰·霍华德的观点，他说，如果澳大利亚人民觉得自己的边境受到控制，他们就会接受非常高的移民。
He brought in this policy whereby anyone arriving by boat was turned away, and boats were basically stopped by the navy before they could arrive.
他引入了这项政策，任何乘船抵达的人都会被拒之门外，船只在到达之前基本上会被海军拦截。
His general thesis is that you can have high immigration, and the voting public will accept it if they feel that it’s done in a controlled manner.
他的总体论点是，你可以拥有大量移民，如果投票公众觉得这是以受控方式完成的，他们就会接受它。
I think that’s one aspect of it.
我认为这是一方面。
Another aspect is that we also have very high-skilled immigration.
另一个方面是我们也有非常高技能的移民。
It’s very noticeable that our immigrant communities are filling up professions and are very hardworking, and have immediately gone into the highest income brackets because we poach a lot of very talented people from all over the world to come out to Australia.
值得注意的是，我们的移民社区正在填补职业空白，而且非常勤奋，并且立即进入了最高收入阶层，因为我们从世界各地挖来了很多非常有才华的人来到澳大利亚。
I think that helps when it comes to things like assimilation and acceptance, that’s for sure.
我认为这对于同化和接受等事情很有帮助，这是肯定的。
If I think of the comparative histories of Australia and New Zealand with regard to political correctness, I have the sense New Zealand gets there first.
如果我考虑一下澳大利亚和新西兰在政治正确性方面的比较历史，我有一种感觉，新西兰首先达到了这一点。
They have a very mild version of political correctness.
他们的政治正确性非常温和。
Maori are rhetorically granted higher status much earlier than, say, Aboriginals and Torres Strait Island peoples are granted higher status in Australia.
毛利人在口头上获得更高地位的时间远远早于澳大利亚原住民和托雷斯海峡岛民获得更高地位的时间。
What do you think accounts for that difference?
您认为造成这种差异的原因是什么？
But yet, now, New Zealand has probably less immigration than Australia in percentage terms.
但现在，从百分比来看，新西兰的移民数量可能少于澳大利亚。
I think the difference is how New Zealand was founded.
我认为区别在于新西兰的成立方式。
The colonial settlers signed a treaty with the Maoris straight away, so that set the stage for better relations from their inception.
殖民地定居者立即与毛利人签署了一项条约，从而为他们从一开始就建立更好的关系奠定了基础。
I don’t know the history very well, but I do know that there was a fierce fight against the colonial settlers, and then they came to some kind of truce, and the colonial settlers signed an official treaty with the Maori.
我不太了解历史，但我确实知道，殖民者与殖民者进行了激烈的斗争，然后他们达成了某种休战协议，殖民者与毛利人签署了正式条约。
That didn’t happen in Australia.
这在澳大利亚并没有发生。
It was more of a case of stealing the land and committing atrocious crimes against the indigenous people, and taking a very long time to coming around to accepting that that needed to be dealt with and acknowledged.
这更像是一个盗窃土地并对土著人民犯下残暴罪行的案件，并且花了很长时间才接受需要处理和承认的事实。
We still don’t have a treaty with the indigenous people in Australia.
我们仍然没有与澳大利亚土著人民签订条约。
So there’s a huge contrast.
所以反差很大。
There’s a huge gap with the way that it was done in New Zealand and the way it was done in Australia.
新西兰和澳大利亚的做法存在巨大差距。
We mentioned before the Internet favoring some particular ideas over others, or kinds of ideas.
我们之前提到过互联网偏爱某些特定的想法而不是其他想法或各种想法。
YouTube, in particular.
尤其是 YouTube。
What kinds of ideas do you think are favored by YouTube, and why?
您认为哪些创意会受到 YouTube 的青睐？为什么？
YouTube is fascinating.
YouTube 很有趣。
It’s the second most visited website in the world, behind Google.
它是世界上访问量第二大的网站，仅次于谷歌。
It’s much more popular than Twitter.
它比 Twitter 更受欢迎。
I think it’s more popular than Facebook.
我认为它比 Facebook 更受欢迎。
Much more.
更多。
If you look at just what is viewed the most often, you’ll get kids watching other kids play video games, you’ll get makeup tutorials.
如果你只看最常观看的内容，你就会让孩子们观看其他孩子玩视频游戏，你会得到化妆教程。
In terms of political discourse, I think you’re getting the same ideas that you will see on Twitter, but reduced to a more simplified .
在政治话语方面，我认为你会得到与 Twitter 上相同的想法，但简化为更简单的。
.
。
.
。
reduced into sound bites.
缩减为原声片段。
You’ll get classical liberal ideas, but you’ll also get the right-wing nationalist ideas, but reduced down to slogans.
你会得到古典自由主义思想，但你也会得到右翼民族主义思想，但会被简化为口号。
To present a good YouTube video, it has to be sort of theatrical and entertaining.
要呈现一个好的 YouTube 视频，它必须具有戏剧性和娱乐性。
On the other hand, we’ve got this situation where someone like Jordan Peterson can present hour-long lectures on complicated topics.
另一方面，我们遇到了这样的情况，像乔丹·彼得森这样的人可以就复杂的主题进行长达一小时的讲座。
And Joe Rogan and Dave Rubin have very long interviews with a range of people.
乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）和戴夫·鲁宾（Dave Rubin）对很多人进行了很长的采访。
It’s hard to summarize.
很难概括。
It’s hard to summarize, yeah.
很难概括，是的。
You have a background in psychology.
您有心理学背景。
Why is it you think there are relatively so few female libertarians in the world?
您认为为什么世界上女性自由主义者相对较少？
That’s pretty straightforward, I think.
我认为这非常简单。
If you look at the personality data on libertarians, they tend towards being more systematizing in their cognitive profile.
如果你看一下自由主义者的性格数据，就会发现他们的认知特征往往更加系统化。
Women, on average, tend to be more empathizing and agreeable, and so arguments around political issues that are based on quantitative reasoning and facts and logic without an emotional layer to it are going to be less appealing to women.
平均而言，女性往往更具同理心和随和性，因此基于定量推理、事实和逻辑而没有情感层面的围绕政治问题的争论对女性的吸引力将会降低。
I’ve said to libertarian friends that if you want to be more appealing, get your message across in a more appealing way, you need to wrap up the ideas into a story that has an emotional component.
我对自由主义者朋友说过，如果你想变得更有吸引力，以更有吸引力的方式传达你的信息，你需要将这些想法包装成一个具有情感成分的故事。
Why hasn’t this evolved more?
为什么这没有进一步发展？
There’s a potential audience.
有潜在的观众。
If indeed it’s true women, on average, are more empathetic, you could make an argument, libertarianism is the true empathy.
如果确实如此，女性平均而言更具有同理心，那么您可以提出论点，自由主义才是真正的同理心。
Women on the whole don’t seem to buy that argument.
总体而言，女性似乎并不认同这种说法。
What exactly is stuck in the middle?
中间究竟卡住了什么？
Empathetic people can favor markets, right?
有同理心的人可以支持市场，对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I think it comes back to communication.
我认为这又回到了沟通上。
Any message can be communicated effectively if you take a narrative that perhaps has some kind of .
如果你采用可能具有某种性质的叙述，那么任何信息都可以有效地传达。
.
。
.
。
There’s something like six narrative structures that are known to elicit emotional reactions in people, like the hero overcoming obstacles.
众所周知，有六种叙事结构可以引起人们的情感反应，比如英雄克服障碍。
That’s like the most basic narrative framework.
这就像最基本的叙事框架。
If you want to present a political argument, you have to be able to put your argument into some kind of narrative structure that elicits an emotional reaction.
如果你想提出一个政治论点，你必须能够将你的论点放入某种能引起情感反应的叙事结构中。
I think libertarians have been because they’re very rationalist and systematizing, they’re skeptical of the utility of narratives and manipulating people’s emotions.
我认为自由主义者是因为他们非常理性和系统化，他们对叙事和操纵人们情绪的效用持怀疑态度。
On higher education
关于高等教育
How did at least some parts of American higher education get so screwed up in the first place?
美国高等教育的至少某些部分一开始是如何搞砸的？
Structurally, what went wrong?
从结构上来说，哪里出了问题？
Is it that campus life is somehow toxic?
难道校园生活有毒吗？
Is it the intersection of the university and some new technologies?
是大学和一些新技术的交集吗？
What’s your take?
你怎么看？
I think the setting up of women’s studies departments in the 1970s was a big mistake because, if you look at other humanities disciplines, they’ve been developed over hundreds of years, and they developed scholarly foundations.
我认为 20 世纪 70 年代设立女性研究系是一个很大的错误，因为如果你看看其他人文学科，它们已经发展了数百年，并且建立了学术基础。
History has its scholarly foundations in things like the dialectic, and then you’ve got philosophy, and even English literature had a solid grounding in a very long history.
历史在辩证法等方面有其学术基础，然后还有哲学，甚至英国文学也有悠久历史的坚实基础。
If you create departments virtually overnight, as they did with women’s studies, when theories become popularized by the departments, and the departments don’t have a very strong, solid grounding in scholarly principles, then these faddish theories such as poststructuralism and deconstruction are going to be able to take root much more quickly and easily than they would in some of the older disciplines such as history or philosophy.
如果你几乎在一夜之间就创建了院系，就像妇女研究那样，当理论在院系中普及时，而院系在学术原则上没有非常牢固、坚实的基础，那么这些流行的理论，如后结构主义和解构主义，将能够比历史或哲学等一些较古老的学科更快、更容易地扎根。
History has its scholarly foundations in things like the dialectic and even English literature had a solid grounding in a very long history.
历史在辩证法等方面有其学术基础，甚至英国文学也有悠久历史的坚实基础。
If you create departments virtually overnight, as they did with women’s studies, when theories become popularized by the departments, and the departments don’t have a very strong, solid grounding in scholarly principles, then these faddish theories such as poststructuralism and deconstruction are going to be able to take root much more quickly.
如果你几乎在一夜之间就创建了一些院系，就像妇女研究那样，当理论在这些院系中普及起来，而这些院系在学术原理上没有非常牢固、坚实的基础时，那么这些流行的理论，比如后结构主义和解构主义将能够更快地扎根。
But do those actually influence anyone?
但这些真的会影响任何人吗？
On your list of worries about the United States or the world, how high should they be?
在你对美国或世界的担忧清单上，它们应该排在多高？
“Well, too many people believe in poststructuralism or postmodernism.”
“嗯，太多人相信后结构主义或后现代主义。”
Young people vote at pretty low rates in the US, as you probably know, and maybe they’ll vote Democratic to a disproportionate degree, but that possibly would be the case anyway.
正如你可能知道的那样，美国年轻人的投票率相当低，也许他们会在不成比例的程度上投票给民主党，但无论如何，情况可能就是这样。
Why does it matter so much?
为什么它如此重要？
It matters because people who go through elite colleges and go into the professions, particularly in journalism and law, are often trained and inculcated with these theories.
这很重要，因为进入精英大学并进入专业领域的人，特别是新闻和法律领域的人，经常接受这些理论的培训和灌输。
So if you are thinking of the next generation of professionals, particularly in the media—and law is not far off—if you’re thinking about the next generation of professionals who have been trained to be skeptical of objective methods and have been trained to view social phenomena through simplistic narratives of impression, without looking at the complications in the data and that kind of thing, then it’s going to have a toxic effect.
因此，如果你想到的是下一代专业人士，特别是媒体领域的专业人士——法律也离我们不远了——如果你想到的是下一代专业人士，他们被训练对客观方法持怀疑态度，并被训练通过简单化的印象叙述来看待社会现象，而不考虑数据的复杂性和诸如此类的事情，那么它将产生毒性作用。
I think we can already see the results of that, particularly in some of the biggest media institutions.
我认为我们已经可以看到结果，特别是在一些最大的媒体机构中。
And I think being complacent about the effect that poststructuralism has had, particularly in the humanities, has backfired.
我认为对后结构主义所产生的影响感到自满，尤其是在人文学科领域，会适得其反。
Part of the problems with polarization is because generations of scholars have been complacent about its impact.
两极分化问题的部分原因是几代学者对其影响感到自满。
With respect to political correctness, how is it that Australian universities are different?
在政治正确性方面，澳大利亚大学有何不同？
I think the fact that they’re public makes a big difference because students are not paying vast sums to go to university in the first place, so students have less power.
我认为它们是公立的这一事实有很大的不同，因为学生一开始就没有支付大量费用来上大学，所以学生的权力较小。
If you’re a student, and you make a complaint against a professor in an Australian university, the university’s just going to shrug its shoulders, and you’ll be sort of walked out of the room.
如果你是一名学生，你对澳大利亚大学的教授提出投诉，大学只会耸耸肩，然后你就会被赶出房间。
Students have much less power to make complaints and have their grievances heard.
学生提出投诉和表达不满的权力要小得多。
That’s one factor.
这是一个因素。
Another factor is, we don’t have this hothouse environment where students go and live on campus and have their social life collapsed into their university life.
另一个因素是，我们没有这种温室环境，让学生住在校园里，让他们的社交生活融入大学生活。
Most students in Australia live at home with their parents or move into a share house and then travel to university, but they don’t live on campus.
澳大利亚的大多数学生与父母一起住在家里，或者搬进合租房，然后前往大学，但他们不住在校园里。
So there isn’t this compression where your entire life is the campus environment.
因此，如果你的整个生活都在校园环境中，就不会有这种压缩。
That’s another factor.
这是另一个因素。
We don’t have a history of policies such as affirmative action.
我们没有平权行动等政策的历史。
To get into university in Australia, it’s based on a tertiary entrance rank, which is a score out of 100, and that’s just based on your final-year academic results.
在澳大利亚进入大学，是基于高等教育入学排名，即满分 100 分，并且仅基于您最后一年的学业成绩。
No extracurricular activities are considered.
不考虑任何课外活动。
If I think about Australian intellectuals, from my great distance in Fairfax, Virginia, they seem to me more left-wing than American intellectuals.
如果我想到澳大利亚知识分子，从我遥远的弗吉尼亚州费尔法克斯来看，他们在我看来比美国知识分子更左翼。
Your media is probably more left-wing than American.
你们的媒体可能比美国媒体更左翼。
Yep.
是的。
You don’t have political correctness, and the intellectual power center has turned out to be further to the left.
你没有政治正确，知识分子的权力中心竟然更左了。
Does that mean political correctness isn’t that important after all?
这是否意味着政治正确性并不那么重要？
I think there’s a difference between political correctness and being left-wing.
我认为政治正确和左翼之间是有区别的。
I think one can be left-wing and not be politically correct.
我认为一个人可以是左翼，但政治上不正确。
In Australia, to be left-wing simply means to favor more redistributive policies, and to favor egalitarianism, basically.
在澳大利亚，左翼仅仅意味着支持更多的再分配政策，基本上支持平均主义。
We have a strong history of egalitarianism in our culture, and there are lots of left-wing people in Australia who are not politically correct in our characters in films and TV shows.
我们的文化中有着悠久的平等主义历史，而且澳大利亚有很多左翼人士，他们在电影和电视节目中的角色在政治上并不正确。
If you think of someone like Crocodile Dundee, he’s not politically correct, but he’s not right-wing.
如果你想到像鳄鱼邓迪这样的人，他在政治上并不正确，但他也不是右翼。
He’s just an Aussie bloke who goes out into the bush and fights with crocodiles.
他只是一个走进丛林与鳄鱼搏斗的澳大利亚小伙子。
There’s not this dichotomy where, if you’re anti-PC, you must be right-wing.
不存在这样的二分法：如果你反对个人电脑，你就一定是右翼。
We don’t really have that black-and-white kind of setup.
我们确实没有那种黑白分明的设置。
On Australian traditions
关于澳大利亚的传统
There’s a cliché about Australia, or maybe an earlier Australia if not today, that it is in some ways more sexually chauvinist than some of the other Anglo countries.
有一个关于澳大利亚的陈词滥调，或者也许是早期的澳大利亚，如果不是今天的话，它在某些方面比其他一些盎格鲁国家更具性沙文主义色彩。
You mentioned Crocodile Dundee.
你提到了鳄鱼邓迪。
Mel Gibson—not entirely Australian.
梅尔·吉布森——不完全是澳大利亚人。
Robert Hughes.
罗伯特·休斯.
There seems to be this tradition of gruff, very manly type figures.
似乎有这种粗暴、非常有男子气概的人物传统。
Is that part of Australian culture?
这是澳大利亚文化的一部分吗？
And is it still there?
它还在吗？
Yeah, and I hope that it remains a part of our culture.
是的，我希望它仍然是我们文化的一部分。
Australia is a dangerous country.
澳大利亚是一个危险的国家。
The people who colonized and settled Australia had to be tough.
殖民和定居澳大利亚的人们必须坚强。
The outback is right there.
内陆地区就在那里。
It doesn’t take long to drive out of the city and you’re in the outback, and it’s a harsh environment.
开车出城没多久，你就到了内陆地区，环境很恶劣。
We have a very strong sporting culture because we have fabulous beaches.
我们拥有非常浓厚的体育文化，因为我们拥有美丽的海滩。
The masculinity is very much tied up with being physically competent.
男子气概与身体能力密切相关。
Do you view yourself and Quillette—you’re not speaking for every author, but broadly—as, to some extent, in this tradition of Australian traditional thought?
您是否认为自己和奎莱特（您不是代表每个作者，而是代表每个作者）在某种程度上属于澳大利亚传统思想的传统？
The sexes are different.
性别不同。
Tough guys are good.
硬汉都是好人
I have not actually considered that, but if someone proposed that, I wouldn’t disagree with it.
我实际上没有考虑过这一点，但如果有人提出这一点，我不会不同意。
On Quillette
关于奎莱特
Could you have done Quillette here in San Francisco?
你能在旧金山做《Quillette》吗？
I don’t think so.
我不这么认为。
I really don’t think so, mostly because what I sense from being here is that there’s a lot of fear of rocking the boat and offending one’s friends.
我真的不这么认为，主要是因为我从这里感受到的是，人们非常害怕搅局和冒犯朋友。
Then if you have coworkers who have certain political inclinations, you don’t want to upset them by expressing one’s honest opinion.
如果你的同事有一定的政治倾向，你不想因为表达自己的诚实意见而惹恼他们。
I sense there’s a lot of social politeness and social etiquette that prevents one from being just unashamed of having a view.
我感觉有很多社交礼貌和社交礼节阻碍了人们毫不羞耻地表达自己的观点。
You’re from Adelaide, not Sydney, is that correct?
您来自阿德莱德，而不是悉尼，对吗？
Yeah, that’s correct.
是的，没错。
How has that influenced your work in Quillette, being from Adelaide, in particular?
这对您在 Quillette 的工作有何影响，尤其是来自阿德莱德的您？
Adelaide’s a smaller city, and it was founded by some pioneers who had experimental ideas about social…
阿德莱德是一座较小的城市，它是由一些对社会有实验性想法的先驱者建立的……
South Australia was the first state to give women the vote, and there was a visionary architect, a city planner who designed the city.
南澳大利亚州是第一个给予女性投票权的州，并且有一位富有远见的建筑师、一位城市规划师设计了这座城市。
I think just the fact that it was smaller.
我认为只是因为它更小。
Sydney and Melbourne—they’re very competitive cities.
悉尼和墨尔本——它们是竞争非常激烈的城市。
Unless you go to a private school, unless you have the right family network, it can be difficult to really be socially mobile.
除非你上私立学校，除非你有合适的家庭网络，否则很难真正具有社交流动性。
Adelaide—because it was smaller—all you really had to do was do well in school, get into university, and you could quite easily be socially mobile.
阿德莱德——因为它更小——你真正需要做的就是在学校取得好成绩，进入大学，你就可以很容易地进行社交流动。
It didn’t really matter who your family was and where you came from.
你的家人是谁以及你来自哪里并不重要。
I think being a smaller city, it allowed me to be ambitious and to not feel constrained, basically.
我认为作为一个较小的城市，它让我有雄心壮志，基本上不会感到受到限制。
What is it you find most puzzling about the United States as an outsider?
作为一个局外人，您觉得美国最令人困惑的是什么？
I have been surprised by how there is this culture of risk-taking, particularly in business.
我对这种冒险文化感到惊讶，尤其是在商业领域。
You celebrate entrepreneurs and courage in making money and that kind of thing, but there is a general timidity when it comes to expressing one’s honest views about things.
你赞扬企业家和赚钱的勇气之类的事情，但在表达自己对事物的诚实观点时，人们普遍感到胆怯。
I have been surprised by how there is this culture of risk-taking , particularly in business .
我对这种冒险文化的存在感到惊讶，尤其是在商业领域。
You celebrate entrepreneurs and courage in making money and that kind of thing, but there is a general timidity when it comes to expressing one’s honest views about things.
你赞扬企业家和赚钱的勇气之类的事情，但在表达自己对事物的诚实观点时，人们普遍感到胆怯。
I find that surprising, and particularly among people who are risk-taking in all sorts of other domains.
我发现这令人惊讶，尤其是对于那些在各种其他领域冒险的人来说。
They might not be risk-taking when it comes to just expressing their feelings about a particular topic in public.
当他们只是在公开场合表达对某个特定话题的感受时，他们可能不会冒险。
I found that surprising.
我发现这很令人惊讶。
San Francisco—in particular, what has surprised you?
尤其是旧金山，什么让您感到惊讶？
Basically, what I’ve just described: how someone can be a visionary entrepreneur and take all sorts of risks in their career, but then be very timid when it comes to anything political, and sort of rocking the boat when it comes to social issues or just expressing a dissenting viewpoint.
基本上，我刚才描述的是：一个人如何成为一个有远见的企业家，并在职业生涯中承担各种风险，但在涉及任何政治问题时却非常胆怯，而在涉及社会问题或只是表达不同观点时则有点搅局。
On things under- and overrated
关于被低估和高估的事情
In many of these conversations, we have a segment in the middle called underrated versus overrated.
在许多这样的对话中，我们中间有一个部分，称为被低估与高估。
I’ll choose some partly from Australia.
我会选择一些来自澳大利亚的。
Are you game?
你是游戏吗？
Sure.
当然。
The city of Canberra, overrated or underrated?
堪培拉这座城市，被高估还是被低估？
Overrated.
被高估了。
Why?
为什么？
Badly designed.
设计得很糟糕。
Badly designed, hard to get around.
设计不好，很难绕过去。
You need a car to get around.
你需要一辆车才能四处走动。
Very poorly designed, and it’s cold.
设计很糟糕，而且很冷。
Marmite.
马麦酱。
You mean Vegemite?
你是说维吉麦特吗？
Take your pick.
随你挑选。
Either one.
任一者。
Probably overrated.
可能被高估了。
Within Australia, but it’s not overrated out there in the big broad world, or is it?
在澳大利亚境内，但在广阔的世界中它并没有被高估，不是吗？
No, so underrated globally, overrated locally.
不，在全球范围内被低估，在当地被高估。
What do you think is the best or most interesting Australian movie?
您认为最好或最有趣的澳大利亚电影是什么？
A movie called Lantana.
有一部电影叫马缨丹。
It had Geoffrey Rush, and it has interweaving narratives of different couples.
它有杰弗里·拉什（Geoffrey Rush），并且有不同夫妇的交织叙述。
It explores themes like trust and openness in marriage.
它探讨了婚姻中的信任和开放等主题。
It’s a very well-crafted film.
这是一部制作非常精良的电影。
It was made recently, probably about 10 years ago or 15 years ago.
它是最近制作的，大概是 10 年前或 15 年前。
I would strongly second that recommendation.
我强烈支持这项建议。
Rugby, overrated or underrated?
橄榄球，被高估还是被低估？
I think probably overrated.
我认为可能被高估了。
Why?
为什么？
Head injuries.
头部受伤。
COWEN: What is most interesting to you in Australian music?
COWEN：澳大利亚音乐中你最感兴趣的是什么？
There were some interesting groups back in the ’80s that I’ve been listening to recently.
我最近一直在听一些 80 年代的有趣团体的声音。
A band called the Go-Betweens and the Church.
一支名为“Go-Betweens and the Church”的乐队。
We had a really cool underground music scene a couple of decades ago.
几十年前，我们有一个非常酷的地下音乐场景。
I’m not sure what’s going on at the moment, though.
不过，我不确定现在发生了什么。
Australian fashion, what is most interesting in that area?
澳洲时尚界，最有趣的是什么？
We have some great designers who do swimwear and resort wear and that kind of thing.
我们有一些出色的设计师，他们设计泳装和度假装等。
Zimmermann is a great brand, which is known all over the world, but I don’t know what it is about them that’s particularly Australian.
Zimmermann是一个伟大的品牌，全世界都知道，但我不知道他们有什么特别的澳大利亚特色。
Yeah, I’m not sure how I could characterize it as Australian.
是的，我不确定如何将其描述为澳大利亚人。
Who is an intellectual or public intellectual in Australia that you would draw our attention to as especially worthy or possibly underrated?
您认为谁是澳大利亚特别有价值或可能被低估的知识分子或公共知识分子？
One of our deputy prime ministers, John Anderson, has been having conversations with people from around the world like Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Haidt, and I think he’s really trying to move discourse in a more intellectual, open .
我们的一位副总理约翰·安德森（John Anderson）一直在与乔丹·彼得森（Jordan Peterson）和乔纳森·海特（Jonathan Haidt）等来自世界各地的人进行对话，我认为他确实在努力以一种更加理智、开放的方式推动对话。
.
。
.
。
He’s trying to bring back these long-form discussions and grapple with the big ideas.
他正试图带回这些长期讨论并努力解决重大想法。
If you had to draw our attention to something in Australian fiction, what might it be?
如果你必须让我们注意澳大利亚小说中的某些东西，它会是什么？
Australian fiction .
澳大利亚小说。
.
。
.
。
I haven’t read any Australian fiction in some years, but if international listeners aren’t aware of Patrick White, he’s probably our best novelist that we’ve ever produced.
我已经好几年没有读过任何澳大利亚小说了，但如果国际听众不知道帕特里克·怀特，他可能是我们有史以来最好的小说家。
On the Claire Lehmann production function
关于克莱尔·莱曼生产函数
I’d like to ask you a few questions, just Claire Lehmann as manager.
我想问你几个问题，请问克莱尔·莱曼（Claire Lehmann）作为经理。
If you’re looking for heuristics to figure out who is a good writer, and also a good writer for Quillette, what do you look for, other than just reading their work?
如果你正在寻找启发法来找出谁是一个好作家，以及《Quillette》的好作家，那么除了阅读他们的作品之外，你还要寻找什么？
How do you think about figuring out who will be a writer worth investing time and networking with, helping them become better?
您如何看待找出谁将成为值得投入时间并与之建立联系并帮助他们变得更好的作家？
Courage.
勇气。
Courage to express ideas without qualifying them in all sorts of disclaimers and weasel words, clarity in prose, being able to structure an article.
勇于表达想法，而不用各种免责声明和狡猾的语言来限定它们，散文清晰，能够构建文章。
Structuring an article is extremely important.
文章的结构非常重要。
A lot of people have a good prose style and have interesting ideas, but their articles just go on and on, and they don’t really have much of a narrative structure.
很多人的散文风格很好，想法也很有趣，但他们的文章只是滔滔不绝，没有太多的叙事结构。
So if anyone has the ability to have a story arc in their article, that’s an instant indicator that that person, that writer, is a winner.
因此，如果任何人有能力在他们的文章中包含故事情节，那就立即表明那个人，那个作家，是赢家。
If I think of the Claire Lehmann production function, so to speak—you were not obviously trained to do what you do—but which of your own talents did you invest in to get in a position to be able to run, start, finance, do everything with Quillette, do the editing?
如果我想到克莱尔·莱曼（Claire Lehmann）的制作职能，可以这么说——你显然没有接受过做你所做的事情的培训——但是你投资了你自己的哪些才能来获得能够运行、启动、财务、与 Quillette 一起做所有事情的位置，进行剪辑？
Building up social capital is a big part of it.
建立社会资本是其中的重要组成部分。
I have developed friendships with people, sort of loose affiliations with people over the years, being able to draw on those affiliations when a certain news story come up.
多年来，我与人们建立了友谊，与人们建立了某种松散的联系，当某个新闻报道出现时，我能够利用这些联系。
For example, when the James Damore controversy broke, I was able to draw on some friendships that I had built up over the years, and so we were able to publish a piece straightaway on that topic.
例如，当詹姆斯·达莫尔争议爆发时，我能够利用多年来建立的一些友谊，因此我们能够立即发表有关该主题的文章。
Things that I’ve had to invest in is .
我必须投资的东西是。
.
。
.
。
I now outsource a lot of the editing work to professional editors.
我现在将很多编辑工作外包给专业编辑。
You have to be aware of the limits of your own competence.
你必须意识到自己能力的局限性。
My competence stops at proofreading.
我的能力仅限于校对。
I’m a hopeless proofreader.
我是一个无可救药的校对员。
Leadership and managing is somewhat common sense.
领导和管理在某种程度上是常识。
You either have it or you don’t, I think, but you can fine-tune certain techniques, and articulate your vision more clearly, and that kind of thing.
我认为，你要么拥有它，要么没有，但你可以微调某些技术，更清楚地表达你的愿景，诸如此类的事情。
What is the most significant constraint for making Quillette bigger and better?
让 Quillette 变得更大更好的最重要的限制是什么？
Of course, you might wish for more money, but if you had, in some way, more resources, how would you invest them?
当然，你可能希望得到更多的钱，但如果你在某种程度上拥有更多的资源，你会如何投资它们？
Is it that you want bigger staffs, more editors?
您是否想要更多的员工、更多的编辑？
What’s your wish list?
你的愿望清单是什么？
What’s number one?
什么是第一？
The biggest constraint is time.
最大的限制是时间。
You mean your time.
你指的是你的时间。
My time, but also the time of my two co-editors because they have judgment that cannot be replaced or substituted.
我的时间，还有我的两位共同编辑的时间，因为他们的判断是无法替代的。
I can’t just ramp up by hiring a whole bunch of people to replicate the work that they do because it can’t be replicated.
我不能只是通过雇佣一大堆人来复制他们所做的工作来提高自己的水平，因为它是无法复制的。
The real constraint is the talent and the time of the individuals that I have at the moment.
真正的限制是我目前拥有的个人的才能和时间。
That being said, it would be very beneficial for us if we had more proofreaders, more subeditors, and more administrative support.
话虽这么说，如果我们有更多的校对员、副编辑和更多的行政支持，那对我们将非常有利。
But when it comes to making decisions about the submissions that we get, and then helping authors refine their work, that skill level can’t really be replicated easily.
但是，当我们对收到的提交内容做出决定，然后帮助作者完善他们的作品时，这种技能水平确实无法轻易复制。
Do you think it could be scalable?
您认为它可以扩展吗？
Say, you had 20 editors as good as the few you have now.
比如说，你们有 20 名编辑，和现在的几个编辑一样好。
Let’s just say you found them.
假设您找到了它们。
Could that work?
那行得通吗？
Or is there something about the number 20 where you’re overloaded, they don’t know each other, something breaks down?
或者说，20这个数字是不是有些东西让你超载了，他们彼此不认识，有些东西出了问题？
Yeah, I think that would be too many, and the other constraint would be that we wouldn’t receive enough pieces.
是的，我认为这太多了，另一个限制是我们不会收到足够的作品。
We wouldn’t receive enough articles, and there probably wouldn’t be enough writers for us to commission to produce the kind of work that we’re after.
我们不会收到足够的文章，也可能没有足够的作家来委托我们创作我们想要的作品。
But we could scale up a little bit more and commission more writers, but I don’t think to the level of having a staff of 20 editors.
但我们可以扩大一点规模，委托更多的作家，但我不认为达到拥有 20 名编辑人员的水平。
I think that would be too many, and then the internal communication would break down.
我认为太多了，然后内部沟通就会中断。
Then there would be power plays amongst people.
那么人与人之间就会发生权力斗争。
Let’s say you were in charge of the Anglo-American world, and you could make one change in education, broadly defined so that we would produce more good writers.
假设你负责英美世界，你可以对教育进行一项广泛的改变，以便我们能够培养出更多优秀的作家。
What would that be?
那会是什么？
I would defund departments that encouraged students to use too much postmodernist jargon.
我将取消对那些鼓励学生使用过多后现代主义术语的院系的资助。
I would clear out a lot of the studies courses—cultural studies, gender studies, critical race studies.
我会清除很多研究课程——文化研究、性别研究、批判种族研究。
Not that the content shouldn’t be taught, but a lot of these schools really train students in poor writing techniques, using opaque jargon to express ideas, and not putting emphasis on clear thought, logical thought.
并不是说内容不应该教，而是很多这样的学校确实训练学生的写作技巧很差，使用晦涩的行话来表达想法，而不强调清晰的思维、逻辑思维。
I would clear them out, just stop funding altogether.
我会把它们清除掉，完全停止资助。
When you see writing under a pseudonym or Anonymous, do you think, on average, it’s better writing or worse writing than writing with real names on it?
当你看到用笔名或匿名写作时，你认为平均而言，它比用真名写作更好还是更差？
I actually think it’s probably better writing.
其实我觉得这样写可能更好。
Why?
为什么？
More fearless.
更加无所畏惧。
More liberated.
更加解放。
Yeah.
是的。
That’s how cowed and cowardly we’ve become.
我们就是这样变得胆怯和胆怯。
Yeah, I think so.
是的，我想是的。
You’d have to assess a piece of writing on a case-by-case basis, but I think some of the best writing that is coming out at the moment is by people under pen names.
你必须根据具体情况来评估一篇文章，但我认为目前出现的一些最好的文章是由笔名的人写的。
What would you say is an issue you’ve changed your mind on?
您认为哪一个问题是您改变主意的？
I changed my mind on issues to do with the welfare state and inequality, and whether inequality is the right metric to be looking at, or social mobility.
我在与福利国家和不平等有关的问题上改变了看法，以及不平等是否是衡量社会流动性的正确指标。
I change my mind on that issue quite a lot, and it’s .
我在这个问题上改变了很多想法，而且是。
.
。
.
。
In which direction?
朝哪个方向？
Just backwards and forwards.
只是向后和向前。
I might think that inequality is an important topic that we need to focus on reducing, and then I might listen to another argument and think that it’s poverty that should be the central metric that we should be looking at, and inequality doesn’t really matter.
我可能认为不平等是我们需要重点关注的一个重要话题，然后我可能会听另一个论点，并认为贫困应该是我们应该关注的核心指标，而不平等并不重要。
I find arguments on both sides of that debate to be compelling, and I don’t really know where I stand, but I know that I change my mind on that issue quite a bit.
我发现辩论双方的论点都很引人注目，我真的不知道自己的立场，但我知道我在这个问题上改变了很多想法。
What would be an example of a doctrine in psychology, one that maybe has some credence—I don’t mean blank slate—that you either reject or are quite skeptical of, relative to the mainstream?
心理学中的一个学说的例子是什么，它可能有一定的可信度（我不是指白板），但相对于主流，你要么拒绝要么相当怀疑？
Cognitive behavioral therapy is known to be an effective therapy.
众所周知，认知行为疗法是一种有效的疗法。
But I am aware that, because it’s much more difficult to standardize other therapies, like extended talk therapy, because we can’t standardize them, it’s hard to measure their effectiveness.
但我知道，因为其他疗法（例如扩展谈话疗法）标准化要困难得多，因为我们无法标准化它们，所以很难衡量它们的有效性。
There are things in psychology in the therapy side of things that could be quite effective that we don’t know about because we can’t accurately measure.
在心理学的治疗方面，有些东西可能非常有效，但我们不知道，因为我们无法准确测量。
I think that just because there isn’t evidence doesn’t mean something isn’t working.
我认为没有证据并不意味着某些东西不起作用。
I think we should be more aware of that.
我认为我们应该更加意识到这一点。
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
没有证据并不等于不存在的证据。
How would you change how psychology is taught?
您将如何改变心理学的教学方式？
I think for people who want to be clinical psychologists and working with actual clients, which is not all psychologists, but for people who want to be clinical psychologists, they should start working in a mental health setting much earlier on.
我认为对于那些想成为临床心理学家并与实际客户合作的人来说，这并不都是心理学家，但对于那些想成为临床心理学家的人来说，他们应该更早地开始在心理健康领域工作。
At the moment, in Australia at least, it’s three or four years of course work, and a heavy course load in statistics, which is important, but you don’t get into a clinical setting until your fifth or sixth year.
目前，至少在澳大利亚，需要三到四年的课程学习，统计学课程负担很重，这很重要，但直到第五年或第六年你才能进入临床环境。
I think that’s too late.
我认为那已经太晚了。
I think students who want to be on that track should start working in a mental health setting earlier.
我认为想要走上这条道路的学生应该尽早开始在心理健康环境中工作。
Do you think Australia should have more forms of affirmative action for Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islander peoples?
您认为澳大利亚应该为原住民和托雷斯海峡岛民采取更多形式的平权行动吗？
Possibly.
可能吧。
We already have all of those policies.
我们已经拥有所有这些政策。
But because the Aboriginal population is so small, it’s not really a political issue because if an Aboriginal individual receives some kind of affirmative action, no is missing out.
但由于原住民人口如此之少，这并不是一个真正的政治问题，因为如果原住民个人获得某种平权行动，就不会错过任何机会。
No one is going to miss out on their university place because of it because it’s such a tiny minority population anyway.
没有人会因此而错过大学入学机会，因为无论如何，这是一个极小的少数群体。
It’s really a nonissue.
这确实不是问题。
When should contrarians give up and join the resistance?
逆向投资者什么时候应该放弃并加入抵抗？
The resistance against what?
抵抗什么？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Simply stop trying to work within established structures such as the world of media or world of higher education and split off.
只需停止尝试在媒体世界或高等教育世界等既定结构内工作并脱离即可。
Do something different.
做一些不同的事情。
I think that creative solutions are always superior to destructive solutions.
我认为创造性的解决方案总是优于破坏性的解决方案。
I’m encouraging people who are disenchanted with media or with universities to think about building their own institutions.
我鼓励那些对媒体或大学不再抱有幻想的人考虑建立自己的机构。
It’s difficult for people to imagine setting up a university.
人们很难想象建立一所大学。
However, people can set up book clubs and reading lists and websites where they encourage academic-type material.
然而，人们可以建立读书俱乐部、阅读清单和网站，鼓励学术型材料。
I think anyone who’s cynical or disenchanted — if you can come up with creative ways to .
我认为任何愤世嫉俗或失望的人 ——如果你能想出创造性的方法来……
.
。
.
。
If you imagine a learning environment that would be just how you wanted it to be, why not create it?
如果您想象一个正是您想要的学习环境，为什么不创造它呢？
Why not give it a go and build what you want to see in the world?
为什么不尝试一下并构建您想在世界上看到的东西呢？
When should contrarians give up and simply join the establishment?
逆向投资者什么时候应该放弃并加入建制派？
When they want to be very strategic and they want to win.
当他们想要非常有策略并且想要获胜时。
Let’s say a younger person comes up to you and says, “I want to be the next Claire Lehmann.” Not an exact copy of what you’ve done, but to do something creative in media, outside of the mainstream but read by many people who are in the mainstream, to have an impact, represent some definite point of view, work on one’s own to a high degree.
假设一个年轻人走到你面前说：“我想成为下一个克莱尔·莱曼。”不是完全复制你所做的事情，而是在媒体上做一些创造性的事情，在主流之外，但被许多主流人阅读，产生影响，代表一些明确的观点，在很大程度上独立工作。
What pieces of advice would you give that person?
你会给那个人什么建议？
Well, it’s something that I landed into as an accident.
嗯，这是我偶然遇到的事情。
So there isn’t an actual pathway to get to where I’ve become.
所以没有一条真正的途径可以到达我现在的位置。
I would say to anyone who wants to have an impact in the media space is to probably not study journalism or media but study something where you get some scientific training.
我想对任何想要在媒体领域产生影响的人说，可能不是学习新闻或媒体，而是学习一些接受过科学培训的东西。
It might be economics.
这可能是经济学。
It might be psychology.
这可能是心理学。
It might be biology.
这可能是生物学。
But I think people who have some kind of scientific training and can bring that training to communication definitely have an edge over those who have gone through journalism school and may have only taken English courses.
但我认为接受过某种科学训练并且能够将这种训练运用到交流中的人肯定比那些读过新闻学校并且可能只上过英语课程的人有优势。
If one can understand statistics and read scientific papers and can couch arguments in a scientifically literate way, then their skills are going to be in demand, I think, because there’s just a scarcity of people who can do that at the moment.
我认为，如果一个人能够理解统计数据、阅读科学论文，并能够以一种具有科学素养的方式表达论点，那么他们的技能将会受到需求，因为目前能做到这一点的人很少。
Claire Lehmann, thank you very much.
克莱尔·莱曼，非常感谢你。
Thank you, Tyler.
谢谢你，泰勒。
Thanks.
谢谢。