Chuck Klosterman on Writing the Past and Relishing the Present (Ep. 144)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I’m here with Chuck Klosterman.
今天我和查克·克洛斯特曼一起来。
Chuck I would describe as a person who basically has done everything, but most notably, from our point of view, he has a new book out called The Nineties.
我将查克描述为一个基本上做过所有事情的人，但最值得注意的是，从我们的角度来看，他出版了一本名为《九十年代》的新书。
Chuck, welcome.
查克，欢迎。
Hey, thanks for having me on.
嘿，谢谢你邀请我参加。
I appreciate it.
我很感激。
I have some questions about the ’90s.
我有一些关于 90 年代的问题。
What was our biggest cultural fear or worry from back then that never came to fruition?
那时我们最大的文化恐惧或担忧从未实现？
What was the one that never came to fruition?
从未实现的那件事是什么？
Yes, never happened.
是的，从未发生过。
The easy answer would be Y2K.
最简单的答案是千年虫。
That was, of course, at the very end, and whether or not that didn’t come to fruition, I suppose, depends on if you’re the kind of person who thinks, “Well, this is an example of them seeing a problem, diagnosing it correctly, taking all the steps of stopping it from happening, and then having a nonevent.”
当然，那是在最后，我想，这是否会实现，取决于你是否是那种认为“嗯，这是他们看到问题、正确诊断问题、采取一切步骤阻止问题发生，然后就没事了”的人。
Or, if you’re someone who’s like, “Well, some countries barely did anything, had the same result we did.
或者，如果你是这样的人，“好吧，有些国家几乎什么也没做，却得到了与我们相同的结果。
How come our microchips didn’t stop working in our dishwashers?
为什么我们的微芯片在洗碗机中没有停止工作？
It was never going to happen, and so it was the event that didn’t occur.” Either way, it wasn’t a tragedy, but it was certainly something we talked about for an entire year and thought about constantly and perceived as the possible end to the way we understood civilization.
这永远不会发生，所以这件事就没有发生。”不管怎样，这都不是一场悲剧，但它确实是我们讨论了一整年、不断思考的事情，并被认为是我们理解文明方式的可能终结。
If you go to the very early part of the ’90s, I suppose it was the idea that the Cold War was still in its death throes.
如果你回顾 20 世纪 90 年代初期，我想这是冷战仍处于垂死挣扎的想法。
I think the fear was, “Oh, what if a suitcase bomb gets out of Russia, someone blows up Chicago or something?” That was something that never came to fruition.
我认为恐惧是，“哦，如果手提箱炸弹从俄罗斯流出，有人炸毁了芝加哥或其他什么怎么办？”那是从未实现的事情。
Was there a specific thing that you had in mind when you asked that question?
当你问这个问题时，你心里有什么具体的想法吗？
Well, I had the fear that Russia might invade the Ukraine, which now is Ukraine.
嗯，我担心俄罗斯可能会入侵乌克兰，也就是现在的乌克兰。
That’s come back.
就这样回来了。
The notion that Japan would buy up the entire world.
日本将收购整个世界的想法。
This idea that you had crack babies who would become these super-predators.
这种想法认为，你的婴儿会成为这些超级掠食者。
There were a lot of fears that, in retrospect, seem relatively slight compared to what we now face.
现在回想起来，与我们现在面临的情况相比，有很多恐惧似乎相对较小。
Although that is common, I think, to amplify fears in the moment, and then retroactively look at anything that didn’t happen and perceive it as, “Well, I guess maybe we were amplifying that too much at the time.” If 9/11 doesn’t happen, we look at the attacking of the USS Cole very differently.
我认为，虽然这种情况很常见，但会放大当下的恐惧，然后回顾所有未发生的事情，并将其视为“好吧，我想也许我们当时放大了太多恐惧。”如果 9/11 事件没有发生，我们对科尔号航空母舰的袭击事件的看法就会大不相同。
We look at the first attempt on the World Trade Center very differently.
我们以非常不同的方式看待世界贸易中心的第一次尝试。
Now that seems like a precursor to a plan that had been in existence for this long stretch of time, and this was always the goal.
现在看来，这似乎是一个已经存在了很长一段时间的计划的前身，而这始终是目标。
But if 9/11 doesn’t occur, it’s almost a forgotten event.
但如果 9/11 没有发生，这几乎就是一个被遗忘的事件。
It’s really difficult when writing about history, but particularly history that people have lived through.
写历史确实很困难，尤其是人们经历过的历史。
The hardest thing about writing a book about the ’90s, I found, was the bifurcation between people who remember the ’90s almost like they just happened.
我发现，写一本关于 90 年代的书最困难的事情是，人们对 90 年代的记忆几乎就像刚刚发生一样，之间存在分歧。
That these things — the release of Nevermind or these Quentin Tarantino films and all these things — that this is still the history they’re living in.
这些事情——《没关系》或昆汀·塔伦蒂诺的电影的上映以及所有这些事情——这仍然是他们生活的历史。
Then for other people, it’s no different than the moon landing.
那么对于其他人来说，这和登月没有什么不同。
It’s just exposition about an event that they didn’t experience.
这只是对他们没有经历过的事件的阐述。
How do you write a book with the idea that maybe half the audience is going to be in category A, and half the audience is going to be in category B?
你如何写一本书，假设一半的读者属于 A 类，一半的读者属于 B 类？
It was a complicated problem.
这是一个复杂的问题。
Did I need to literally explain what a compact disc is?
我需要从字面上解释什么是光盘吗？
I asked myself that at one point.
我曾一度这样问自己。
Then I would be like, “Well, when I was growing up, I fully understood what a reel-to-reel was and what an 8-track was, even though I didn’t necessarily purchase them.”
然后我会说，“好吧，在我成长的过程中，我完全理解什么是卷轴到卷轴以及什么是 8 轨，尽管我不一定购买它们。”
But something has changed about the way time is perceived.
但人们感知时间的方式发生了一些变化。
I sense that you’ve recognized this too — 10 years is different now than the way it used to be, and it’s —
我感觉你也意识到了这一点 —— 现在10年和以前不一样了，而且是 ——
Yeah, I think there’s a break point.
是的，我认为有一个断点。
Maybe it comes at 9/11, but since then, everything has felt weird, and a lot of aesthetics hasn’t changed very much.
也许它是在 9/11 发生的，但从那以后，一切都感觉很奇怪，很多审美观也没有太大改变。
Music doesn’t go through phases the way it used to.
音乐不再像以前那样经历阶段。
Movies intensify, maybe, in terms of special effects or number of superheroes, but they don’t evolve the way they used to.
电影也许在特效或超级英雄的数量方面有所加强，但它们并没有像以前那样发展。
The ’90s, to me, was the last part of earlier history.
对我来说，90 年代是早期历史的最后一部分。
Well, I think it’s possible — very easy in fact — to argue that the ’90s were the last decade of the 20th century, but also the last decade that was this immutable framing of time.
嗯，我认为有可能——“事实上很容易”——认为 90 年代是 20 世纪的最后十年，也是这个不可改变的时间框架的最后十年。
One thing I talk about a little bit in the book — maybe I should have talked about more, but I wanted to get away from seeing the past through the prism of the present — but this guy, Mark Fisher, who’s dead now, had this idea about the slow cancellation of the future.
我在书中谈到了一点——“也许我应该谈得更多，但我想摆脱通过现在的棱镜来看待过去”——“但是这个人，马克·费舍尔，现在已经去世了，有一个关于慢慢取消未来的想法。
I feel like that’s one of the most profound ideas that I’ve come across in the last 10 years of my life, and it seems so palpable that this is occurring.
我觉得这是我在过去 10 年里遇到的最深刻的想法之一，而且这种情况的发生似乎是显而易见的。
An example I will often use is, if you take, say, 10 minutes from an obscure film in 1965 with no major actors, and then you take 10 minutes from an obscure film from 1980 where nobody became famous, and you show anyone these 10-minute clips, they will have no problem whatsoever figuring out which one came first.
我经常使用的一个例子是，如果你从 1965 年一部没有主要演员的不起眼电影中取出 10 分钟，然后从 1980 年一部无人成名的不起眼电影中取出 10 分钟，然后向任何人展示这些 10 分钟的剪辑，他们将毫无问题地找出哪一个先出现。
Even a little kid can look at a movie from 1965 and a movie from 1980 and instantly understand that one predates the other.
即使是一个小孩子，在观看一部 1965 年的电影和一部 1980 年的电影时，也会立即明白其中一部先于另一部。
But if you do that with a film from 2005 and a film from 2020 — again, an obscure film where you don’t recognize the actors — you’re just looking at it aesthetically and trying to deduce which one came first and which one came second.
但如果你对一部 2005 年的电影和一部 2020 年的电影进行同样的处理——《又是一部你不认识演员的不起眼的电影》——你只是从美学角度看待它，并试图推断出哪一部排在第一位，哪一部排在第二位。
It’s almost impossible.
这几乎是不可能的。
This phenomenon just seems to almost be infiltrating every aspect of the culture.
这种现象似乎几乎渗透到文化的各个方面。
This idea that everything, to a degree now, is somewhat retro, and certain natural evolutions that happened because culture was lost or forgotten or just moved beyond, doesn’t really happen now.
这种认为现在一切在某种程度上都有点复古的想法，以及由于文化丢失、遗忘或超越而发生的某些自然演变，现在并没有真正发生。
It’s so easy to access the recent past that it all becomes pushed into the same gumbo or whatever.
访问最近的过去是如此容易，以至于所有这些都被推入同一个浓汤或其他东西中。
The ’90s, to me, signal the end of when you are able to look at certain things or certain qualities or a certain vague sense and identify it as from that period.
对我来说，90 年代标志着你能够看待某些事物、某些品质或某种模糊感觉并将其识别为那个时期的终结。
I fear that that may be over, although I’m not sure why I fear it.
我担心这可能会结束，尽管我不确定我为什么害怕。
Why did it change?
为什么会改变呢？
What happened?
发生了什么？
When did we sense the flip there?
我们什么时候感觉到那里发生了翻转？
What drove that difference?
是什么导致了这种差异？
Well, the easy answer or the predictable answer or the answer anyone would give — they would say it’s the internet.
好吧，简单的答案或可预测的答案或任何人都会给出的答案——他们会说这是互联网。
That the internet emerges in the ’90s.
互联网出现于 20 世纪 90 年代。
It makes a big jump in ’95, but when you think of the internet in the ’90s, it’s really more of a mechanical discussion than a cultural discussion.
它在 95 年取得了巨大的飞跃，但当你想到 90 年代的互联网时，你会发现它实际上更多的是机械讨论，而不是文化讨论。
But then, when you move beyond about 2001, beyond 9/11, you see the introduction of social media and all these things, and that it is so easy for anyone to instantly access something, anything, something or anything.
但是，当你超越 2001 年左右、超越 9/11 时，你会看到社交媒体和所有这些东西的引入，任何人都可以轻松地立即访问某些东西、任何东西、任何东西。
I use this example a lot.
我经常使用这个例子。
When I worked in newspapers in the ’90s, there would always be a person at that newspaper — maybe they had once been a reporter, now they’re on the night desk or something.
当我在90年代在报社工作时，那家报社总会有一个人——也许他们曾经是一名记者，现在他们在夜班或其他什么岗位。
You would go up to a person like that, and you’d be like, “Hey, I’m trying to think of this movie.
你会去找这样的人，你会说：“嘿，我正在考虑这部电影。
I don’t know, it was about cars, and I think there’s a beach boy in it, and I feel like the film burns up.” And they’d go, “Oh, that’s Two–Lane Blacktop.” Their job was to remember cultural minutiae.
我不知道，这是关于汽车的，我觉得里面有一个海滩男孩，我觉得这部电影很燃。”他们会说，“哦，那是双车道柏油路。”他们的工作是记住文化细节。
That is gone now because now everyone has the machine that does that, which is maybe personally disappointing because it seemed like that was what my life was going to become, the person who remembered all these insignificant things.
现在这种情况已经消失了，因为现在每个人都有一台可以做到这一点的机器，这可能对我个人来说是令人失望的，因为我的生活似乎将变成这样，一个记住所有这些无关紧要的事情的人。
But that seems to be over now.
但现在这一切似乎已经结束了。
Now that it’s all so available, instead of culture having depth, it’s more like a real shallow ocean that’s very easy to wade into and scoop up whatever you need.
现在一切都唾手可得，文化不再有深度，而更像是一片真正的浅海，很容易涉水而捞取你需要的任何东西。
It’s vast, but it doesn’t go deep.
它很大，但并不深入。
Is Seinfeld still funny?
《宋飞正传》还有趣吗？
Here I have in mind two points of view.
在此我想到两个观点。
One is the view that now it’s just rude.
一种观点认为现在这样做很粗鲁。
The girlfriend named Mulva — you couldn’t get away with that .
女朋友叫穆尔瓦——你是逃不掉的。
The other view is it’s not rude enough.
另一种观点是这还不够粗鲁。
Now we have Curb Your Enthusiasm, and that’s really rude, and it makes Seinfeld and Jason Alexander just not necessary.
现在我们有了《遏制你的热情》，这真的很粗鲁，而且它让宋飞和杰森·亚历山大变得没有必要了。
What’s your take?
你怎么看？
Is Seinfeld still good and funny?
《宋飞正传》仍然精彩有趣吗？
Well, I still find it funny, although I will admit it might be difficult for someone who experienced it first to have a real accurate understanding of that.
好吧，我仍然觉得这很有趣，尽管我承认对于第一次经历过它的人来说可能很难真正准确地理解这一点。
One thing that I have found when I talk to young people is that they tend to like Friends more than Seinfeld.
当我与年轻人交谈时我发现的一件事是，他们更喜欢《老友记》而不是《宋飞正传》。
They see Friends almost as this timeless situation dealing with problems that everyone goes through, where Seinfeld seems more rooted in this worldview that doesn’t exist as much anymore.
他们将《老友记》视为一种永恒的情境，处理每个人都会经历的问题，而《宋飞正传》似乎更植根于这种不再存在的世界观。
I might be a hard person to gauge that.
我可能是一个很难衡量这一点的人。
It does still seem funny to me.
我觉得还是很有趣。
I think the thing that matters, though, is that the tone of Seinfeld was both unlike the culture of today, but also massively popular.
不过，我认为重要的是《宋飞正传》的基调既不同于当今的文化，又广受欢迎。
That is the thing that just kept coming up over and over again whenever I’d write about television.
每当我写有关电视的文章时，这就是不断出现的事情。
This idea that we have these events now like, oh, the finale of Game of Thrones, the finale of Mad Men, or whatever, that seem like these points in the zeitgeist that everyone is discussing simultaneously.
我们现在拥有这些事件的想法，比如，哦，《权力的游戏》的结局，《广告狂人》的结局，或者其他什么，这似乎是每个人都在同时讨论的时代精神中的这些要点。
Yet, any episode of Seinfeld was seen and experienced by more people, which meant that experience was just kind of normative entertainment.
然而，《宋飞正传》的任何一集都会被更多的人观看和体验，这意味着这种体验只是一种规范的娱乐。
It’s always so tempting, when you look back at any period of time, to look for these strange apex moments.
当你回顾任何一段时期时，寻找这些奇怪的巅峰时刻总是很诱人。
The outlier that seemed incongruous with everything else that was happening and maybe seems closer to what’s happening in the culture of the present, and you go, “Well, this is what really mattered.”
异常值似乎与正在发生的其他一切不一致，也许似乎更接近当前文化中正在发生的事情，然后你会说，“嗯，这才是真正重要的。”
I always sense that the thing that really mattered was the thing that we did not even view as having that ancillary secondary meaning.
我总是感觉到，真正重要的事情是我们甚至不认为具有辅助次要意义的事情。
They were just what was being consumed, and the ideas and the morals and the values within that.
它们只是被消费的东西，以及其中的思想、道德和价值观。
What was important about Seinfeld wasn’t that it was more rude and brusque and adversarial with the classic idea of a sitcom, where everything is happy and everything works out.
《宋飞正传》的重要之处并不在于它与情景喜剧的经典理念相比更加粗鲁、粗鲁和对抗，在情景喜剧中，一切都很开心，一切都很顺利。
That was important, but the bigger thing was that those ideas were just on, and people watched them because there they were.
这很重要，但更重要的是，这些想法刚刚出现，人们关注它们，因为它们就在那里。
That sets the texture of an era more than, say, Twin Peaks or something that doesn’t seem like it fits in the time that it came.
这比《双峰》或其他看起来不适合它来的时代的东西更能设定一个时代的质感。
Did the golden age of American TV end after the ’90s?
美国电视的黄金时代在 90 年代之后结束了吗？
And if so, what happened to it?
如果是这样，发生了什么？
Because you have The Sopranos, The Wire.
因为你有《黑道家族》和《火线》。
The years differ, but it’s around that time, right?
虽然年代不同，但都是那个时候，对吧？
Well, I would say that there’s the first golden era of television, which everybody understands is its seminal period, back when television was still a new concept.
嗯，我想说，电视有第一个黄金时代，每个人都知道这是它的开创性时期，当时电视还是一个新概念。
I would say the second golden age of television actually probably comes post ’90s, if we’re looking at the value of the content.
我想说，如果我们关注内容的价值，电视的第二个黄金时代实际上可能会出现在 90 年代后。
When you look at that early part of the 21st century, where you still have The Sopranos, you have The Wire.
当你回顾 21 世纪早期时，那里仍然有《黑道家族》，也有《火线》。
Mad Men is there.
广告狂人就在那里。
Breaking Bad is part .
《绝命毒师》是其中的一部分。
.
。
.
。
There are these shows that probably were, for that period of time, generally superior to what was happening in cinema, which seemed like an unthinkable thing at the beginning of the ’90s, to even assert that somehow television could be better than movies.
在那个时期，这些节目可能普遍优于电影，这在 90 年代初似乎是不可想象的事情，甚至断言电视可能比电影更好。
From a critical perspective it was just unthinkable.
从批判的角度来看，这是不可想象的。
Seinfeld was a great show, but I wouldn’t say the ’90s were a golden age of television.
《宋飞正传》是一部很棒的剧，但我不会说 90 年代是电视的黄金时代。
They were probably closer to the ’80s in a lot of ways.
他们在很多方面可能更接近 80 年代。
The real jump came when shows either moved away from the network concept, or even within the network concept, you could make a show like Lost, which wasn’t really like something that you would’ve seen in the past.
当节目脱离网络概念，或者甚至在网络概念内，你可以制作像《迷失》这样的节目，这与你过去看到的不太一样时，真正的跳跃就出现了。
What’s our biggest misconception about the ’90s?
我们对90年代最大的误解是什么？
I would say that one of the things that I found interesting was, I am not certain it is a misremembered period.
我想说，我发现有趣的一件事是，我不确定这是一个被错误记忆的时期。
I think that there’s a caricature and an idea of the ’90s — I think in this book I described it as a low-stakes grunge cartoon, kind of.
我认为这是 90 年代的漫画和想法——我认为在这本书中我将其描述为低风险的垃圾卡通。
And that’s not perfect, but it’s not radically incorrect.
这并不完美，但也并非完全错误。
The ’90s are still close enough that a lot of the things that we project upon that period aren’t so far from the truth.
20 世纪 90 年代已经很近了，我们对那个时期的预测与事实相差并不远。
When you look at David Halberstam’s The Fifties, or books written about the ’60s, or books written about the ’70s, typically, the author is pushed or maybe feels obligated to contradict the widespread perception of the period.
当你阅读大卫·哈尔伯斯坦的《五十年代》或有关 60 年代的书籍或有关 70 年代的书籍时，通常，作者会被迫或可能觉得有义务与那个时期的普遍看法相矛盾。
“We thought the ’70s were boring.
“我们认为 70 年代很无聊。
Actually, there was all this tumult going on.” It’s always “We thought this, and we were wrong.”
事实上，所有这些骚乱都在发生。”总是“我们这样想，但我们错了”。
Someone could do that with a book about the ’90s, but I felt that that would be a misshapen view of how it was.
有人可以通过一本关于 90 年代的书来做到这一点，但我觉得这将是一种畸形的观点。
My goal in this was to write a book that was not looking at the ’90s the way we think about the culture now, and jamming that retrospective view into a modern ideology, but to go back and try to capture what it actually felt like to experience that time.
我的目标是写一本不以我们现在思考文化的方式看待 90 年代的书，并将这种回顾性的观点塞进现代意识形态中，而是回过头来尝试捕捉那个时代的真实感受。
In some ways, it’s easy to seem smart by looking back and finding little signposts that signal a future, but it’s also not difficult to do that.
在某些方面，通过回顾过去并找到预示未来的小路标很容易显得很聪明，但做到这一点也不难。
What’s much harder is to describe what it felt like to hang around that signpost with no understanding that it had any future symbolic value.
更难的是描述在不知道它有任何未来象征价值的情况下徘徊在那个路标周围的感觉。
Now, the 1960s — you have the Professor on Gilligan’s Island, you have Spock on Star Trek.
现在，20 世纪 60 年代——吉利根岛上有教授，星际迷航中有史波克。
How does the popular culture of the ’90s portray science?
90 年代的流行文化如何描绘科学？
Well, I think with a pretty palpable degree of fear, which is not uncommon.
嗯，我认为有相当明显的恐惧，这并不罕见。
You look back at a Godzilla movie, and it’s like atomic testing is going to cause these calamities.
你回顾一下哥斯拉电影，就像原子测试会导致这些灾难一样。
Frankenstein is founded on this.
《弗兰肯斯坦》就是以此为基础创立的。
In the ’90s, of course, we have this cloning of Dolly the sheep, and that’s a hinge point for the way the idea of genetic engineering was seen.
当然，在 20 世纪 90 年代，我们克隆了多莉羊，这是人们看待基因工程理念的一个转折点。
There was this immediate fear that genetics was going to be used very often to reanimate things from the past, a little bit like Jurassic Park.
人们立即担心遗传学将被经常用来复活过去的事物，有点像侏罗纪公园。
Jurassic Park is the biggest mainstream example.
侏罗纪公园是最大的主流例子。
That’s not really an anti-science book or an anti-science movie, but it is that the scientists have gone too far.
这并不是一本真正的反科学书或反科学电影，而是科学家们走得太远了。
I did find it very intriguing to realize that after Dolly the sheep was cloned in Scotland, Bill Clinton was trying to introduce legislation that would stop the cloning of a human being.
我确实发现，在苏格兰克隆多莉羊之后，比尔·克林顿试图出台立法来阻止克隆人，这确实很有趣。
There was like, “We’ve got to get ahead of this.” That’s odd when you look back.
就像，“我们必须抢在这之前。”当你回头看时，这很奇怪。
When you think about it in retrospect, that’s an odd fear that we had, that somebody would clone humans immediately because the technology existed, but that fear was around.
当你回想起来时，我们有一种奇怪的恐惧，因为技术的存在，有人会立即克隆人类，但这种恐惧是存在的。
It was like many things in the ’90s.
就像 90 年代的许多事情一样。
It was this strange combination of anxiety and excitement.
这是焦虑和兴奋的奇怪结合。
It was thrilling that this was occurring, and yet also seemed like the recipe for disaster.
这种情况的发生令人兴奋，但也似乎是灾难的根源。
It was like you had to embrace the idea while also stopping it.
就好像你必须接受这个想法，同时也要停止它。
Was the ’90s the last era of musical subcultures?
90 年代是音乐亚文化的最后一个时代吗？
If so, why did they go away?
如果是这样，他们为什么要离开？
I think there are still musical subcultures, but they’re exclusively online now.
我认为仍然存在音乐亚文化，但它们现在只存在于网上。
The idea of the physical mass subculture is probably gone.
物质大众亚文化的想法可能已经消失了。
And of course, these are easy things to be wrong about, but part of that had to do with the fact of scarcity — not that the records didn’t exist, but that you had to pay for them, and people in teen culture had a limited amount of funds.
当然，这些都是很容易出错的事情，但部分原因与稀缺性有关——并不是说这些记录不存在，而是你必须为它们付费，而青少年文化中的人们的资金数量有限。
If you went and you bought it, you had enough money to buy one CD, so you bought The Cure, and you listened to that real intensely because it’s the only one you got that week.
如果你去买了它，你就有足够的钱买一张 CD，所以你买了 The Cure，你非常认真地听它，因为这是你那周唯一得到的一张 CD。
When you go back in two weeks, maybe you buy Sisters of Mercy or Nine Inch Nails or something that vaguely tied to it.
当你两周后回去时，也许你会买《慈悲姐妹》或《九寸钉》或与之隐约相关的东西。
Then you realize that the people who like The Cure seem to shop at this place called Hot Topic, so maybe you start shopping there.
然后你意识到喜欢 The Cure 的人似乎在这个叫做 Hot Topic 的地方购物，所以也许你开始在那里购物。
The next thing you know, you’re part of this subculture because you had a real limitation.
接下来你就会知道，你是这个亚文化的一部分，因为你有一个真正的限制。
You were limited in your choice, and you were limited in the number of directions you could go.
你的选择是有限的，你可以走的方向也是有限的。
After Napster and with file sharing in general, and then moving into things like Spotify and Apple Music, there is no pressure to go down the same path over time.
继 Napster 和一般的文件共享之后，再到 Spotify 和 Apple Music 等，随着时间的推移，不再有压力走同样的道路。
Music is now a buffet, and its tangible value is less, so people just pick and choose, and everyone creates a playlist or a mixtape that suits their personality in specific, and that fights against the idea of creating a subculture.
音乐现在是自助餐，它的有形价值越来越少，所以人们只是挑挑拣拣，每个人都会创建一个适合自己个性的播放列表或混音带，这与创造亚文化的想法相悖。
Because what that subculture — what you need are the people who have shared values by default.
因为亚文化 ——你需要的是那些默认具有共同价值观的人。
In other words, what they decide is cool or uncool is not totally just based on what they think, but what their peers seem to think and what the artists that these peers are listening to seem to think.
换句话说，他们决定什么是酷或不酷并不完全取决于他们的想法，而是基于他们的同龄人的想法以及这些同龄人正在聆听的艺术家的想法。
What other subcultures tend to .
其他亚文化倾向于什么。
.
。
.
。
If you considered yourself a goth kid or a metalhead or any of these things that happened at that time, the way your group was perceived calcified, galvanized the meaning of those signifiers.
如果你认为自己是哥特小子或金属迷或当时发生的任何这些事情，那么你的群体被视为钙化的方式就会激发这些符号的含义。
That’s not really how it is now.
现在的情况并非如此。
That’s gone.
那已经消失了。
Now, there, again, it’s something I kind of miss.
现在，这又是我有点怀念的事情。
I’m not sure why I miss it.
我不知道为什么我会想念它。
Is it just because I was familiar with it?
难道只是因为我熟悉吗？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
To ascribe actual value to it is complicated.
赋予它实际价值是很复杂的。
Maybe back then, you were more likely to use music to signal your personality type.
也许那时，您更有可能使用音乐来表明您的性格类型。
You’re an indie girl who’s going to go to Brown, you listen to REM, right?
你是一个要去布朗大学的独立女孩，你听 REM，对吗？
You could be a Deadhead, you could listen to metal.
你可以是一个呆头呆脑的人，你可以听金属乐。
Whereas now, your Instagram page tells everyone what you’re like, so you just go off and consume the buffet.
而现在，你的 Instagram 页面告诉每个人你的喜好，所以你只需去吃自助餐即可。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Can you still be shocked today by music you hear?
今天你还能被听到的音乐震撼吗？
When I first heard “Smells Like Teen Spirit” or Sonic Youth or My Bloody Valentine, I was shocked.
当我第一次听到“Smells Like Teen Spirit”或“Sonic Youth”或“My Bloody Valentine”时，我感到震惊。
I’m never shocked today.
我今天从来没有感到震惊。
Are you shocked?
你震惊吗？
Well, no. I guess the short answer is no. But what you’re describing in some ways, though, really is this slow cancellation of the future.
嗯，不。我想简短的回答是否定的。但从某些方面来说，你所描述的实际上是对未来的缓慢取消。
That music from, say, 1991, ’92, ’93 — Nirvana’s Nevermind came out the same day as Blood Sugar Sex Magik came out.
比如说，1991 年、92 年、93 年的音乐——Nirvana 的 Nevermind 与 Blood Sugar Sex Magik 同一天发行。
There was a whole bunch of records that came out that day.
那天有一大堆唱片问世。
Had you played them to someone from 1971, it would not have seemed even like music.
如果你给 1971 年的人演奏这些曲子，你会觉得它根本不像音乐。
I think that somebody who was into rock in 1971, who was listening to Led Zeppelin and the early Beatles solo records and all that, and you played them this music, they would be like, “Well, it seems dissident.
我认为 1971 年喜欢摇滚的人，听齐柏林飞艇乐队和早期披头士乐队的独奏唱片等等，当你给他们播放这些音乐时，他们会说，“嗯，这似乎是持不同政见的。
It doesn’t seem songful.
看起来并不好听。
It doesn’t seem like music at all.
这看起来根本不像音乐。
I don’t like the way it’s recorded.” It would be really troubling.
我不喜欢它的录制方式。”确实会很麻烦。
It is very unlikely that someone would have that experience from hearing music now who had really been into music at the turn of the 21st century.
21世纪之交真正热爱音乐的人不太可能通过现在听音乐获得这种体验。
It would not seem that different.
看起来并没有什么不同。
It’s very difficult now to create something that isn’t at least partially retro.
现在很难创造出至少部分不复古的东西。
In fact, it almost seems to be gone entirely.
事实上，它似乎几乎完全消失了。
You grew up in North Dakota.
你在北达科他州长大。
You loved metal.
你喜欢金属。
You documented it for Spin and other media sources.
您为 Spin 和其他媒体源记录了它。
If you were coming of age today, what would be your passion in music?
如果你今天成年了，你对音乐的热情是什么？
What would be your thing?
你会做什么？
What would be your at least partial subculture?
你至少部分的亚文化是什么？
That’s an almost impossible question, but a great one.
这是一个几乎不可能回答的问题，但却是一个很好的问题。
It’s fun to think about that, but the answer I give is going to be completely worthless because if I’m coming up in rural North Dakota now .
想到这一点很有趣，但我给出的答案将完全毫无价值，因为如果我现在来到北达科他州的农村。
.
。
.
。
Okay, so my hometown had 500 people, and I lived outside of that town.
好吧，我的家乡有 500 人，而我住在那个城镇外面。
In my hometown, there was essentially two kinds of music.
在我的家乡，基本上有两种音乐。
There was metal, and there was country.
有金属，有乡村。
AC/DC was kind of the crossover act.
AC/DC 是一种交叉行为。
That’s all there was.
这就是全部了。
There was Top 40 music that no one seemed to care about, and even as high school students, we seemed to view it as shallow and superficial, while we were listening to bands like Poison and Mötley Crüe, so there are lots of contradictions here.
似乎没有人关心Top 40音乐，即使是高中生，当我们听Poison和Mötley Crüe这样的乐队时，我们似乎也认为它是浅薄的和肤浅的，所以这里有很多矛盾。
It doesn’t always make sense, but I fell into that music.
这并不总是有意义，但我陷入了那种音乐之中。
My brother came back from the army.
我哥哥从部队回来了。
He had a Mötley Crüe cassette.
他有一盘 Mötley Crüe 磁带。
He had an Ozzy Osbourne cassette.
他有一本奥兹·奥斯本的磁带。
I had been listening to Huey Lewis and Eddie Grant and Madness and Prince.
我一直在听休伊·刘易斯（Huey Lewis）和埃迪·格兰特（Eddie Grant）以及《疯狂与王子》（Madness and Prince）。
Got this — I just loved it immediately, and it became my whole identity for a while.
明白了 —— 我立刻就喜欢上了它，有一段时间它成了我的全部身份。
How would that experience possibly happen now?
现在这种经历怎么可能发生呢？
I would be on the internet.
我会上网。
I assume that instead of just sitting in my bedroom listening to an Ozzy Osbourne cassette and just reading the liner notes over and over again, I would be on a computer.
我认为我不会只是坐在卧室里听奥兹·奥斯本的磁带，一遍又一遍地阅读歌词，我会在电脑上。
And the experience of having my brother drop something off and then leave would be replaced by someone online that I find interesting, leading me in some direction.
让我哥哥放下东西然后离开的经历将被我觉得有趣的在线人所取代，引导我走向某个方向。
I don’t think that I would have the same experience with music that I had growing up in a situation where my options were limited, where there were long stretches of time when I had six cassettes.
我不认为我会有与我在选择有限的情况下长大的音乐经历相同的经历，在那里我有很长一段时间拥有六盘磁带。
That was all I had, and I would play them over and over and over again and think about them and see things in that music that probably didn’t exist.
这就是我所拥有的一切，我会一遍又一遍地播放它们，思考它们并看到音乐中可能不存在的东西。
It seems odd to say this now, and it seems almost crazy, but I think part of the reason I was able to succeed as a critic was because I came from a place where I was so limited in the art I was consuming that I had to think about it differently.
现在这么说似乎很奇怪，而且似乎很疯狂，但我认为我能够作为批评家取得成功的部分原因是因为我来自一个我所消费的艺术非常有限的地方，我必须以不同的方式思考它。
I didn’t have MTV.
我没有 MTV。
Even if I’d grown up in Minneapolis — because the people that I became friends with later in life, most of which came from bigger towns, the people who seemed to like me as an adult — they were the people who listened to The Smiths and who thought Guns N’ Roses was terrible or whatever, but Guns N’ Roses was the most interesting thing I had.
即使我是在明尼阿波利斯长大的——因为我后来成为朋友的人大多来自大城市，他们成年后似乎很喜欢我——他们是听史密斯乐队的人，认为枪与玫瑰很糟糕或者其他什么，但枪与玫瑰是我拥有的最有趣的东西。
I would look at Axl Rose the way somebody else might think of David Byrne or something.
我会像其他人看待大卫·伯恩之类的那样看待埃克索·罗斯。
I had to get all this meaning from him.
我必须从他那里得到所有这些意义。
That really worked to my advantage, I think, as I matured and was able to experience these other kinds of art but still working from the way it was when I had nothing.
我想，这确实对我有利，因为我成熟了，能够体验其他类型的艺术，但仍然以我一无所有时的方式工作。
I guess I don’t know what I would be like now.
我想我不知道我现在会是什么样子。
I don’t even like reading my early books because I can’t relate to the person who wrote them.
我什至不喜欢读我早期的书，因为我无法与写这些书的人产生共鸣。
The idea of me thinking about what I was like at 13 — no idea.
一想到我 13 岁的时候是什么样子，我就不知道了。
Why did Spin magazine fail?
《Spin》杂志为何失败？
Even I subscribed.
连我都订阅了。
Well, the first thing I would say is, it started, I think, in 1988 and was still going pretty well till 2006.
嗯，我要说的第一件事是，我认为它始于 1988 年，直到 2006 年仍然进展顺利。
It didn’t really fail.
它并没有真正失败。
It had a long life.
它的寿命很长。
Why is it still not a factor in the way the music industry operates?
为什么它仍然不是音乐产业运作方式的一个因素？
Well, lots of reasons.
嗯，有很多原因。
One, magazines in general matter less.
第一，杂志总体上不太重要。
More significant, though, is the idea that when I was reading Spin as a college student, you would read about a band like Pavement, or you would read about a band like Teenage Fan Club, and those records weren’t even out yet.
不过，更重要的是，当我作为一名大学生阅读《Spin》时，你会读到像 Pavement 这样的乐队，或者你会读到像 Teenage Fan Club 这样的乐队，而这些唱片甚至还没有发行。
You would be reading this review of someone trying to describe what the music was, and if you would like it, and if it applied to you or whatever.
您可能会阅读这篇评论，其中有人试图描述音乐是什么，您是否喜欢它，以及它是否适用于您或其他什么。
Then you’d wait for the record and finally hear it, and you would’ve had this whole built-in superstructure in your mind over what this music was, and now you’re finally hearing it — whereas now it would be, you would hear about the band at the same time you heard it for the first time, and that kind of takes away the significance of a magazine like Spin.
然后你会等待唱片并最终听到它，你的脑海中就会有整个内置的上层建筑关于这首音乐是什么，现在你终于听到了它 - 而现在，你会在第一次听到它的同时听到这个乐队，这就失去了像《Spin》这样的杂志的意义。
I read Spin because I thought it had the best writers about music, but I wouldn’t need people to write about music if I could instantly hear the song itself.
我读《Spin》是因为我认为它有最好的音乐作家，但如果我能立即听到歌曲本身，我就不需要人们写音乐了。
So I think that’s part of it.
所以我认为这是其中的一部分。
What made Grantland so wonderful?
是什么让格兰特兰如此精彩？
I appreciate you saying that.
我很欣赏你这么说。
I think it was that they just went out and got the best writers they could find, and paid them enough to do projects that other places probably wouldn’t see a real demand for, and let them do it.
我认为他们只是出去找到了他们能找到的最好的作家，并付给他们足够的钱来做其他地方可能不会真正需要的项目，然后让他们去做。
The first story I wrote for Grantland was about going to a junior college basketball game when I was like a sophomore in high school.
我为 Grantland 写的第一个故事是关于我高中二年级时去参加一场专科大学篮球比赛的故事。
It was a Native American team who was playing, and they only had six guys on the roster, and three of them fouled out, and they won the game three on five.
比赛的是一支美洲原住民队，他们的名单上只有六名球员，其中三人被罚下场，他们以三对五赢得了比赛。
But this was a small junior college game in Wahpeton, North Dakota, from the ’80s.
但这是上世纪 80 年代在北达科他州瓦佩顿举行的一场小型专科大学比赛。
There’s no place to present that story to, but at Grantland, it was like, go ahead, the weirder the better.
没有地方可以展示这个故事，但在格兰特兰，就像是，继续吧，越奇怪越好。
From the perspective of being a writer, Grantland is almost an unrealistic scenario.
从作家的角度来看，《格兰特兰》几乎是一个不切实际的场景。
“We want you to be you.” As a consequence, I suppose, if we really went back and we read everything that was on Grantland, we would find a lot of junk that seems ridiculous now.
“我们希望你成为你。”因此，我想，如果我们真的回去阅读格兰特兰上的所有内容，我们会发现很多现在看来很荒谬的垃圾。
But at the same time, the things that people remember were the best parts.
但同时，人们记住的东西也是最好的部分。
What is it in non-American culture that you’re most interested in?
您对非美国文化中的什么最感兴趣？
Canada not counting — no Neil Young, no Joni Mitchell.
加拿大不算——没有尼尔·杨，没有乔尼·米切尔。
Non-American culture.
非美国文化。
Boy, I am a pretty American person in a lot of ways.
天哪，我在很多方面都是一个漂亮的美国人。
I’m sure a criticism of this book is that instead of being called The Nineties, it should be called The American Nineties.
我确信对这本书的批评是，它不应该被称为“九十年代”，而应该被称为“美国九十年代”。
I have a somewhat myopic view about how culture works, but in 2008, I was a guest professor at the University of Leipzig, and I taught American studies there for a semester.
我对文化如何运作的看法有些短视，但2008年，我是莱比锡大学的客座教授，在那里教授了一个学期的美国研究。
It was in East Germany, so it was very interesting.
那是在东德，所以非常有趣。
German’s the main language.
德语是主要语言。
The second most popular language was Russian.
第二流行的语言是俄语。
I could teach a class at this university, but I couldn’t mail a letter because I’d go to the post office and no one knew what I wanted.
我可以在这所大学教课，但我不能寄信，因为我要去邮局，没有人知道我想要什么。
Being in East Germany, the thing that fascinated me was talking to Germans, especially German students, about their perception of America.
在东德，让我着迷的是与德国人，尤其是德国学生谈论他们对美国的看法。
I think that the most valuable thing about traveling is the greater understanding you have of the place you’re from, from the way it is perceived, and your natural inclination is to almost argue with these people.
我认为旅行最有价值的事情是你对自己来自的地方有了更深入的了解，从它的感知方式来看，你的自然倾向几乎是与这些人争论。
I was teaching a class called 20th-Century Pop Culture, and it’s the first day, and I’m walking to class, and a graduate student starts walking alongside of me.
我正在教一门名为“20 世纪流行文化”的课程，这是第一天，我步行去上课，一位研究生开始与我并肩同行。
He seems like a nice guy, and he asked me what I’m doing, and I tell him, “I’m teaching this class on 20th-Century Pop Culture.” He’s like, “Well, that should take 10 minutes.” Because they perceive America as having no culture, but it was crazy because they all loved hip-hop.
他看起来是个好人，他问我在做什么，我告诉他，“我正在教这门课，内容是 20 世纪流行文化。”他说：“好吧，那应该需要 10 分钟。”因为他们认为美国没有文化，但这很疯狂，因为他们都喜欢嘻哈。
I would be like, “Well, hip-hop is American culture.” And they’d be like, “Oh, no, that’s an immigrant culture.” I’m like, “Well, not really.
我会说，“嗯，嘻哈是美国文化。”他们会说，“哦，不，那是移民文化。”我想，“好吧，不是真的。
That’s a weird way to perceive it.”
这是一种奇怪的感知方式。”
I know what you’re really asking more about is, what are things that come from —
我知道你真正想问的是，这些东西来自什么 ——
Well, like Asian cinema in the ’90s was a big deal for me.
嗯，就像 90 年代的亚洲电影对我来说很重要一样。
I discovered —
我发现 ——
It was, oh, sure.
哦，当然。
— Hong Kong movies, changed my whole worldview of movies.
—— 香港电影，改变了我整个电影世界观。
Yes.
是的。
To be honest, I was pretty unsophisticated in that way, in that I thought that I was getting deeper into culture by pursuing what I was already into.
说实话，我在这方面相当不成熟，因为我认为通过追求我已经感兴趣的东西，我可以更深入地了解文化。
I would see a movie like Run Lola Run, and I would think, “Oh, now I’m understanding this thing.” But I was just seeing one part of it.
我会看一部像《罗拉快跑》这样的电影，我会想，“哦，现在我明白了这件事了。”但我只看到了其中的一部分。
There’s a bunch of stuff I could make up, but I think, in reality, my interests are domestic.
我可以编造很多东西，但我认为，实际上，我的兴趣是国内的。
They really are.
他们确实是。
There are tons of bands I like from Britain, but that somehow didn’t seem in any way separate from US culture.
我喜欢的英国乐队有很多，但不知何故，它们似乎与美国文化没有任何区别。
Like the Beatles seem like part of American culture.
就像披头士乐队似乎是美国文化的一部分。
Led Zeppelin seems like part of American culture.
齐柏林飞艇似乎是美国文化的一部分。
In fact, Led Zeppelin seems more like it’s part of American culture than UK culture.
事实上，齐柏林飞艇似乎更像是美国文化的一部分，而不是英国文化的一部分。
Correct.
正确的。
I was really into groups like Pizzicato Five, Japanese pop music.
我真的很喜欢日本流行音乐拨奏五人组这样的乐队。
I really like Swedish pop music, but there again, that’s something that’s been so integrated into our world here, it’s almost like saying, “I love food from other countries.
我真的很喜欢瑞典流行音乐，但同样，这种音乐已经融入我们的世界，几乎就像在说：“我喜欢来自其他国家的食物。
General Tso’s chicken — that’s what I love.” It’s a form of the other, or whatever, that is actually a form of us.
左宗棠鸡 ——这是我的最爱。”它是他人的一种形式，或者其他什么，实际上是我们的一种形式。
Are you up for a lightning round of overrated versus underrated?
您准备好迎接一场高估与低估的闪电回合了吗？
Sure.
当然。
Feel free to pass on any of these.
请随意传递其中任何一个。
George Harrison — overrated or underrated?
乔治·哈里森——被高估还是被低估？
Wow.
哇。
Well, I would say as a —
好吧，我会说作为一个 ——
You’ve seen Get Back, right?
你看过《归来》吧？
Of course.
当然。
He’s a whiner, and he walks offstage.
他爱发牢骚，然后走下舞台。
That’s true.
这是真的。
He’s not transparent.
他并不透明。
Who would hire him?
谁会雇用他？
But I don’t know if any of those qualities factor into someone being overrated or underrated.
但我不知道这些品质是否会导致某人被高估或低估。
I would say this: It is almost impossible to say a member of the Beatles is underrated, not because they are overrated, but because we look at their work in such a way that there’s nobody out there saying that All Things Must Pass isn’t good.
我想说的是：几乎不可能说甲壳虫乐队的成员被低估，不是因为他们被高估了，而是因为我们以这样一种方式看待他们的工作，没有人说《一切都会过去》不好。
I suppose if you had to make an assessment, you could say that George’s music was a little more same-y than John or Paul, that fundamentally his songs follow a similar chord structure and a similar delivery pattern, that All Things Must Pass is many versions of three good songs.
我想如果你必须做出一个评估，你可以说乔治的音乐比约翰或保罗更相似一点，从根本上来说，他的歌曲遵循相似的和弦结构和相似的交付模式，“一切都会过去”是三首好歌曲的许多版本。
I suppose that makes him slightly overrated, but I love George Harrison, so I hate to say that.
我想这让他有点被高估了，但我爱乔治·哈里森，所以我不想这么说。
But I guess if I had to pick one or two, that’s what I pick.
但我想如果我必须选择一两个，我就会选择。
Okay.
好的。
Here’s a softball.
这是一个垒球。
Eric Clapton — over- or underrated?
埃里克·克莱普顿（Eric Clapton）——被高估还是低估？
Well, overrated forever, and now underrated because of his political position in the sense that people now have decided that not only do they not like him, but that somehow Cream was bad and that Derek and the Dominos was bad.
好吧，永远被高估了，现在因为他的政治地位而被低估了，因为人们现在已经决定，他们不仅不喜欢他，而且不知何故，奶油很糟糕，德里克和多米诺骨牌也很糟糕。
He was overrated my whole life.
我一生都高估了他。
There was a long period where if you would’ve said, “Who are the most overrated figures in rock history?” I would be like, “That’s easy.
在很长一段时间内，如果你会问“摇滚史上最被高估的人物是谁？”我会说：“这很容易。
Jim Morrison and Eric Clapton.” But it changed so dramatically and so radically that now it’s almost as though we can’t think of him as probably the most significant white blues guitar player of all time.
吉姆·莫里森和埃里克·克莱普顿。”但它的变化是如此巨大和彻底，以至于现在我们几乎不能认为他可能是有史以来最重要的白人布鲁斯吉他手。
I would say now he’s slightly underrated, but it’s his own fault.
我想说现在他被低估了，但这是他自己的错。
Okay.
好的。
Here’s a guy on the injured list — Anthony Davis.
这是受伤名单上的一个人——安东尼·戴维斯。
Let’s see.
让我们来看看。
Is he overrated or underrated?
他是被高估了还是被低估了？
I would say he is probably somewhat overrated because he is often injured.
我想说他可能有点被高估了，因为他经常受伤。
He is really more of an elite defender than an elite scorer, even though he’s a good shooter.
尽管他是一名优秀的射手，但他实际上更像是一名精英防守者，而不是一名精英得分手。
He’s a great player.
他是一位出色的球员。
He’s an all-star, but I would say that if I’m listing, in order, the best players in the league, I guess I would place him further down on the list than a lot of my peers.
他是一名全明星球员，但我想说，如果我按顺序列出联盟中最好的球员，我想我会把他放在名单上，比我的许多同龄人更靠后。
I would say slightly overrated.
我想说有点高估了。
My local guy, Bradley Beal — over- or underrated?
我的本地人布拉德利·比尔（Bradley Beal）——被高估还是被低估？
I would say slightly underrated, but only by the casual consumer.
我想说的是，它被低估了，但只是被普通消费者低估了。
I think people who follow the NBA pretty closely have a relatively accurate view of Bradley Beal.
我认为密切关注NBA的人对布拉德利·比尔的看法是比较准确的。
He might be properly rated, I guess, among people who understand basketball and follow basketball closely, and certainly people who live in Washington.
我想，在了解篮球并密切关注篮球的人中，尤其是住在华盛顿的人中，他可能会得到适当的评价。
But I would say there are a lot of people who might classify themselves as basketball fans — if you ask them about Bradley Beal, they might not know who he is or where he plays, so slightly —
但我想说的是，有很多人可能会把自己归类为篮球迷 ——“如果你向他们询问布拉德利·比尔，他们可能不知道他是谁，也不知道他在哪里打球，所以稍微 ——
To me, he lacks ambition, and that’s a big no-no. Even though I think insiders know that about him, I still put him as a bit overrated.
对我来说，他缺乏野心，这是一个很大的禁忌。尽管我认为内部人士都了解他，但我仍然认为他有点被高估了。
When you say he lacks ambition — ambition to be great, ambition to win, to become a different player?
当你说他缺乏野心时——“成为伟大的野心、获胜的野心、成为不同球员的野心？”
Both.
两个都。
Really?
真的吗？
Okay.
好的。
Yes, to be the best, to be on the best team.
是的，成为最好的，加入最好的团队。
He doesn’t seem to care, which is fine.
他似乎并不关心，这很好。
He might be a happier guy than a lot of his peers, but nonetheless.
他可能比许多同龄人更快乐，但尽管如此。
Well, that’s a hard thing to measure because in sports, we actually reward people emotionally if they are obnoxious.
嗯，这是一件很难衡量的事情，因为在体育运动中，如果人们令人讨厌，我们实际上会在情感上奖励他们。
I remember when Justin Herbert came out of college, people didn’t want to draft him because they were like, “He’s not an emotional leader.
我记得当贾斯汀·赫伯特大学毕业时，人们不想选他，因为他们会说，“他不是一个情感领袖。
He’ll never succeed because he’s just quiet.
他永远不会成功，因为他只是安静。
He keeps to himself.” Somehow, someone like Baker Mayfield who tries to draw attention is perceived as being more dedicated and more intense.
他只顾自己。”不知何故，像贝克·梅菲尔德这样试图引起注意的人被认为更专注、更热情。
It’s confusing.
这很令人困惑。
It’s always so interesting.
总是那么有趣。
I grew up — my favorite player was Larry Bird.
我长大了——我最喜欢的球员是拉里·伯德。
And I remember being very surprised when I found out that Larry Bird was constantly talking and trash-talking his opponents because, as somebody who was just watching at home as a kid, for some reason I thought of him almost as a stoic person.
我记得当我发现拉里·伯德不断地对他的对手说话和说垃圾话时，我感到非常惊讶，因为作为一个小时候在家看球的人，出于某种原因，我认为他几乎是一个坚忍的人。
That’s how I viewed it because he was talking to other players.
我就是这么看的，因为他正在和其他球员交谈。
He wasn’t talking to the media.
他没有接受媒体采访。
Of the great NBA players — take something like the top 100, whatever you’d like — who’s the most underrated of that lot?
在伟大的 NBA 球员中 — 取前 100 名之类的东西，无论你想要什么 — 其中谁是最被低估的？
Who’s still underappreciated?
谁仍然被低估？
This is a strange answer because he’s very famous, but to a degree, Wilt Chamberlain has become underrated in the fact that people discount his statistics as a vestige of a previous time.
这是一个奇怪的答案，因为他非常有名，但在某种程度上，威尔特·张伯伦被低估了，因为人们把他的统计数据视为以前的遗迹。
But even within that previous time, the statistics he compiled are really unthinkable.
但即便是在之前的时间里，他所统计出来的数据也确实是难以想象的。
The fact that you will sometimes see lists of the greatest players of all time and he will be outside the top five — I think that’s very weird.
事实上，有时你会看到有史以来最伟大球员的名单，而他却排在前五名之外 —— 我认为这很奇怪。
I don’t know if he would be in the top 100, but there were guys like Sydney Moncrief who were good for years and good in every way, but we would never include them in this top tier because pro basketball has also adopted this — maybe predictable but also curious — perception that winning a championship matters almost too much now.
我不知道他是否会进入前100名，但像西德尼·蒙克利夫这样的球员多年来一直表现出色，各方面都表现出色，但我们永远不会将他们纳入这一顶级行列，因为职业篮球也采用了这种“也许可以预见但也令人好奇”的观念，即现在赢得冠军几乎太重要了。
If you have not won a title, you can’t be classified as a great player.
如果你还没有赢得过冠军，你就不能被归类为伟大的球员。
It’s strange — you’ll watch the TNT Show, and Kenny Smith will still hold this over Charles Barkley, somehow, that they are equal as veterans, as former players because Kenny Smith won two titles and Barkley won none, and Barkley’s aware of it.
这很奇怪——你会看 TNT 秀，肯尼·史密斯仍然会比查尔斯·巴克利持有这一点，不知何故，他们作为退伍军人、前球员是平等的，因为肯尼·史密斯赢得了两个冠军，而巴克利没有赢得任何冠军，而巴克利知道这一点。
They’ve made this decision almost collectively.
他们几乎集体做出了这个决定。
This decision has been made, that in basketball — because there are only five guys on the floor, and we can credit the best player as being the reason a team succeeds or fails — winning a title has become everything.
这个决定已经做出，在篮球运动中 ——因为场上只有五个人，我们可以将最好的球员视为球队成功或失败的原因 —— 赢得冠军已经成为一切。
It skews the way we understand this.
它扭曲了我们理解这一点的方式。
It’s why you see guys trying to get titles late in their career — ring chasing or whatever.
这就是为什么你会看到有人在职业生涯后期试图获得冠军——追逐戒指或其他什么。
I think they believe if they can just do that, that will somehow recontextualize everything else about them.
我认为他们相信，如果他们能做到这一点，就会以某种方式重新审视他们的其他一切。
I might say Kareem — just high total value, high peaks, and high total.
我可能会说卡里姆 ——只是高总价值、高峰值和高总价值。
For me, he’s clearly top three.
对我来说，他显然是前三名。
I’m not sure he’s viewed that way necessarily.
我不确定他一定是这样看的。
I think that there is a camp that places him third that goes now —
我认为现在有一个阵营把他排在第三位——
But it’s a camp.
但这是一个营地。
It should be a nation.
应该是一个民族。
It should be a universe, right?
应该是一个宇宙吧？
I guess so.
大概吧。
Van Morrison — was he any good?
范·莫里森（Van Morrison）——他好吗？
Is he any good?
他有那么好吗？
Is he an Eric Clapton figure who’s now hated because he opposed lockdowns?
他是埃里克·克莱普顿(Eric Clapton)式的人物吗，现在因为反对封锁而被人讨厌？
Or was he brilliant for decades or just had an early peak?
或者他已经辉煌了几十年还是只是刚刚达到巅峰？
He did have an early peak.
他确实有一个早期的巅峰。
He’s a strange figure in the sense that he was a guy who was .
从某种意义上说，他是一个奇怪的人物，因为他确实是一个奇怪的人。
.
。
.
。
He’s 22 years old, and he sings nostalgically about this lost past.
他今年22岁，怀念地唱着这段失落的过去。
People who are fans of Van Morrison — they see him as an interesting songwriter with a very distinctive voice.
范·莫里森的粉丝——他们认为他是一位有趣的歌曲作者，有着非常独特的声音。
Compared to Eric Clapton — now, of course, they’re tied together because they share this vaccination platform or whatever — he doesn’t seem to me a fraction as significant in the history of music as Clapton is.
与埃里克·克莱普顿相比——“当然，现在他们因为共享疫苗接种平台或其他什么而联系在一起”——在我看来，他在音乐史上的重要性并不如克莱普顿那么重要。
I would still say a little bit overrated, but that’s taste too.
我还是想说有点高估了，但这也是味道。
Why aren’t the current Portland Trail Blazers better than they are?
为什么现在的波特兰开拓者队没有比他们更好？
As we’re speaking, they’re eight games below 500.
正如我们所说，有 8 场比赛得分低于 500。
On paper, they looked pretty good.
从纸面上看，它们看起来相当不错。
No one thought they would win a title, but they were maybe the fifth-best team in the West.
没有人认为他们会赢得冠军，但他们可能是西部第五好的球队。
Now they stink.
现在它们很臭。
What’s your meta model of the Trail Blazers?
你对开拓者队的元模型是什么？
I think they were a team that overachieved for a period, that people didn’t really think of them as a premier franchise.
我认为他们是一支在一段时间内取得了超常成绩的球队，人们并不真正认为他们是一支顶级球队。
We get into the playoffs, and there was this realization that Lillard was this incredible scoring machine and that CJ McCollum is good and they had all these various pieces.
我们进入季后赛，我们意识到利拉德是一个令人难以置信的得分机器，CJ 麦科勒姆也很出色，他们拥有所有这些不同的部分。
Then it was like they hit some abstract ceiling where there was almost an understanding — within the team itself, but also, oddly, with the fan base — that they could never win a title.
然后，他们就好像达到了某种抽象的天花板，几乎所有人都明白————球队内部，但奇怪的是，球迷群体————他们永远无法赢得冠军。
They could probably never even get out of the West.
他们可能永远无法离开西方。
Once that belief became the foundational idea of the team, it just collapsed.
一旦这种信念成为团队的基本理念，它就崩溃了。
Now you might as well blow the whole thing up.
现在你不妨把整个事情都炸了。
It was almost as though they convinced themselves that they were just limited.
就好像他们说服自己，他们只是有限的。
There was a limit to the success they could have.
他们所能取得的成功是有限的。
As so often is the case, self-awareness is what destroys you.
正如经常出现的情况一样，自我意识会毁掉你。
Their self-awareness of their limitation was the problem.
问题在于他们对自身局限性的自我意识。
As you’ve written, in the 1980s you have the Celtics versus the Lakers.
正如您所写，在 20 世纪 80 年代，凯尔特人队对阵湖人队。
It’s one of the great sports rivalries of all time.
这是有史以来最伟大的体育竞赛之一。
Can we still have sports rivalries at all?
我们还能进行体育竞赛吗？
If not, why not?
如果没有，为什么不呢？
Where did they go?
他们去哪儿了？
You can have them at the collegiate level, for sure.
当然，你可以在大学级别拥有它们。
Part of the reason I find myself drawn to college sports more than pro sports, very often, is that even though the kind of person who goes to a school to play football or basketball is different than the student body, in a sense, if Stanford is playing Arizona or if Texas is playing Georgia, we have an understanding of what kind of person tends to go to those schools.
我发现自己对大学体育比职业体育更感兴趣的部分原因是，尽管去学校踢足球或篮球的人与学生群体不同，但从某种意义上说，如果斯坦福大学对阵亚利桑那州，或者德克萨斯州对阵佐治亚州，我们就能了解什么样的人倾向于去这些学校。
And we can sort of apply it to the players, and even though the players might be outside of that world, they adopt those characteristics.
我们可以将其应用到玩家身上，即使玩家可能在那个世界之外，他们也会采用这些特征。
The rivalry between Michigan and Ohio State, and Auburn and Alabama — those aren’t going to go away.
密歇根州和俄亥俄州立大学、奥本大学和阿拉巴马州之间的竞争不会消失。
At the pro level, though, it will be difficult to see two teams that dynastic at the same time, where the Lakers and the Celtics were clearly the two best teams in the league throughout that period.
然而，在职业层面，很难同时看到两支王朝般的球队，湖人队和凯尔特人队显然是那个时期联盟中最好的两支球队。
Yes, the 76ers were good in there.
是的，76人队在那里表现不错。
The Bucks were good in there.
雄鹿队在那里表现出色。
The Rockets had success.
火箭队取得了成功。
But the 76ers had to get Moses Malone in order to get over the hump to beat the Celtics, and when the Rockets beat the Lakers, it was an anomaly.
但76人队必须得到摩西·马龙才能渡过难关击败凯尔特人队，而当火箭队击败湖人队时，这是一个反常现象。
So you had these two dynastic teams that were also completely different, even to the most casual viewer.
所以，即使对于最不经意的观众来说，这两支王朝球队也完全不同。
Race was part of it, but also playing style.
种族是其中的一部分，但比赛风格也是如此。
Also, this understanding that they were on different coasts, and that there was something diametrically different about what it would be like to be a Celtic fan and what it would be like to be a Laker fan.
而且，他们知道他们位于不同的海岸，并且作为凯尔特人球迷和作为湖人球迷的感觉截然不同。
It’s hard to imagine that now.
现在很难想象。
If you look at the NFL, the Patriots have had this dynasty over a long period of time, and teams have come and gone.
如果你看看NFL，爱国者队已经拥有这个王朝很长一段时间了，球队来来去去。
What would’ve needed to happen would’ve been like if the Packers or the Cowboys had had the same kind of success as the Patriots over that same period of time.
如果包装工队或牛仔队在同一时期内取得了与爱国者队相同的成功，那么将会发生什么。
That’s almost impossible now.
现在这几乎是不可能的。
It defies logic that the Patriots have been able to succeed the way they have for 20 years.
爱国者队20年来能够取得如此成功，这违背了逻辑。
It doesn’t really make sense, especially in the NFL, which is designed to allow every franchise to eventually get good and to create almost an inorganic degree of parity.
这确实没有意义，尤其是在美国国家橄榄球联盟(NFL)，它的目的是让每支球队最终都能取得好成绩，并创造出几乎无机程度的平等。
In college basketball, if so many of the good players are one and done, the coach doesn’t get to imprint an identity on the franchise.
在大学篮球比赛中，如果这么多优秀的球员都已经退役，教练就无法在球队中留下自己的印记。
Players just want to signal they have upside potential to become lottery picks.
球员只是想表明他们有成为乐透选秀的上升潜力。
How is it that college basketball is even still worth watching?
为什么大学篮球仍然值得一看？
Well, the first thing I will say is that when I think about sports experiences in my life — and I’m discounting “Oh, this team I wanted to win lost,” or “This team I hated succeeded,” and I discount terrible injuries to people or the death of Len Bias or whatever — when I think about things in sports that have disappointed me over the course of my life, the decline in college basketball is probably at the top of the list.
好吧，我要说的第一件事是，当我想到我一生中的体育经历时，我会忽视“哦，我想赢的这支球队输了”或“我讨厌的这支球队成功了”，我会忽视人们遭受的严重伤害或伦·比亚斯的死亡或其他什么，当我想到在我的一生中让我失望的体育运动时，大学篮球的衰落可能是最重要的。
I would say that and the introduction of instant replay are the two things that disappoint me most about the way sports has changed over time.
我想说，对于体育运动随着时间的推移而发生的变化，最令我失望的两件事是这一点和即时重播的引入。
College basketball now is solely the March Madness tournament.
大学篮球现在只是疯狂三月锦标赛。
That seems to be the only thing even relatively serious college basketball fans care about.
即使是相对严肃的大学篮球迷，这似乎也是唯一关心的事情。
Because the best players play the shortest amount of time, it is real difficult to get a sense of what these guys are like and what the coach is trying to do beyond succeed.
因为最好的球员上场时间最短，所以很难了解这些人是什么样的，以及教练除了成功之外还想做什么。
I guess that is part of it.
我想这是其中的一部分。
When you think of college basketball in the ’70s and the ’80s, and you think of John Wooden and Bobby Knight and Dean Smith and John Thompson and all these guys, you think about these coaches who had consistently strong teams and teams that had a real clear identity.
当你想到 70 年代和 80 年代的大学篮球时，你会想到约翰·伍登、鲍比·奈特、迪恩·史密斯和约翰·汤普森以及所有这些人，你会想到这些教练，他们拥有始终如一的强大球队和拥有真正明确身份的球队。
You could look at these teams, and you would almost see when a kid graduates and a new kid is recruited, he’s the replacement for that guy, both as a position on the floor but also as what they would bring to the team.
你可以看看这些球队，你几乎会看到，当一个孩子毕业并招募一个新孩子时，他就是那个人的替代者，既作为球场上的一个位置，也作为他们将为球队带来的东西。
That is gone now.
现在已经不复存在了。
The fact that Duke does this, especially .
杜克大学尤其这样做。
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.
。
People thought they might be the last holdout of this, but they are not.
人们以为他们可能是最后的坚持者，但事实并非如此。
When Calipari succeeded at Kentucky, it proved that this is the best way to build a great team.
当卡利帕里在肯塔基大学取得成功时，证明这是建立一支伟大球队的最佳方式。
You get the best collection of kids coming out of high school, put them together, and accept that college basketball now is more an extension of AAU basketball than high school basketball.
你收集了高中毕业的最好的孩子，把他们放在一起，然后接受现在的大学篮球更多的是 AAU 篮球而不是高中篮球的延伸。
If you’re asking me, “Why is it worth watching?” It’s like, “Well, I still watch it.” But I will say this: There was a long stretch of my life where, if there was a pro game on and a college game on, I would always watch the college game.
如果你问我：“为什么值得一看？”就像，“好吧，我还在看。”但我要说的是：在我生命的很长一段时间里，如果有一场职业比赛和一场大学比赛，我总是会看大学比赛。
Now that’s never the case.
现在情况并非如此。
Now I will always watch the pro game.
现在我会一直看职业比赛。
Is there too much gambling money in sports today?
现在的体育界赌钱是不是太多了？
Too much?
太多了？
What do you mean by too much?
你说的太多是什么意思？
Asking for scandal.
求丑闻。
The flow of betting on professional sports is much higher than the revenue of the sports themselves.
职业体育博彩的流量远高于体育运动本身的收入。
There’s room for conflicting incentives.
激励措施之间存在冲突的空间。
People selling inside information about player injuries.
人们出售有关球员受伤的内幕信息。
Referees not quite being deliberately dishonest, but just not always looking too hard at the fouls of one team, and so on.
裁判并不是故意不诚实，只是没有总是过分关注一支球队的犯规，等等。
Relative to the flow of betting money, why should we have great faith in the process?
相对于投注资金的流动，我们为什么要对这个过程抱有很大的信心呢？
I think that officiating is the issue where this does become a little dangerous and fragile.
我认为主持这个问题确实变得有点危险和脆弱。
One thing that came out of the whole Tim Donaghy situation, when there was a scandal, the NBA did a pretty good job of sweeping it away, and everyone’s forgot about it.
从蒂姆·多纳吉的整个事件中得出的一件事是，当丑闻发生时，NBA 很好地把它扫除了，每个人都忘记了它。
One of the things that came out of that was a realization that a referee can dictate the outcome of a game, simply by calling the game straight in the sense that they don’t have to create fouls or even try to look for situations where they can dictate the outcome.
由此产生的一件事是意识到裁判可以决定比赛的结果，只需直接宣布比赛即可，因为他们不必制造犯规，甚至不需要试图寻找可以决定结果的情况。
They can just occasionally call traveling, the way traveling actually is, or they can call lane violations on free throws which they normally completely ignore.
他们只是偶尔会叫出走动，实际上就是这样，或者他们可以叫出罚球时的违例，而他们通常完全忽略这一点。
It becomes almost this invisible way of manipulating the spread because they’re not doing anything.
这几乎变成了一种无形的操纵价差的方式，因为他们什么也没做。
They’re not wrong about anything.
他们在任何事情上都没有错。
They’re actually just being correct in a way that is usually forgotten.
他们实际上只是以一种通常被遗忘的方式是正确的。
There is some risk with that.
这存在一定的风险。
The fact of the matter is, pro athletes are now compensated to a degree where it would be difficult to convince them to throw a game or manipulate a spread with the risk that is there, with the amount of money they’re already making.
事实是，职业运动员现在得到的补偿达到了一定程度，很难说服他们在存在风险的情况下进行比赛或操纵利差，以他们已经赚到的钱。
There was a controversy about Len Dawson when he played for the Chiefs in Super Bowl IV.
当莱恩·道森为酋长队参加第四届超级碗比赛时，他引起了争议。
Before that Super Bowl, there was this idea that maybe he had some relationship with gamblers.
在那届超级碗之前，有人认为他可能与赌徒有某种关系。
The fact of the matter is, in the early 1970s, what a guy was making — you could definitely see how giving a guy $10,000 or whatever could be a legitimate amount of money.
事实是，在 20 世纪 70 年代初，一个人的收入是多少 ——你绝对可以看出给一个人 10,000 美元或其他什么可能是合法的金额。
At the pro level now, the amount of money you’d have to pay these guys to make it worth the risk is huge.
在现在的职业水平上，你需要付给这些人多少钱才能让你值得冒这个风险。
At college, harder to say.
到了大学就更难说了。
Here in Oregon now, I could gamble if I wanted to on the Oregon State Lottery, but you can’t gamble on college games.
现在在俄勒冈州，如果我愿意，我可以在俄勒冈州彩票上赌博，但你不能在大学比赛上赌博。
I suppose that they would see that that’s still an area of danger, that you could convince a .
我想他们会看到这仍然是一个危险的领域，你可以说服一个。
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particularly since you can gamble on anything now.
尤其是现在你可以赌任何东西。
I think if somebody wanted to do this, what they would do is, they would probably get involved with the mid-majors in very small college teams, where it wouldn’t be that difficult, not only to get to a player but to give him something that would be worth his time.
我认为如果有人想这样做，他们会做的是，他们可能会参与非常小的大学球队的中等专业，在那里它不会那么困难，不仅是为了找到一个球员，而且给他一些值得他花时间的东西。
I think, though, that there was this fear that sports might become so splintered that it could recede from the culture, and they had to find a way to keep it as popular as it ever was.
不过，我认为，人们担心体育可能会变得如此分裂，以至于它可能会从文化中消失，他们必须找到一种方法来保持它像以前一样受欢迎。
And gambling was the answer because gambling makes people who don’t care, care a lot.
赌博就是答案，因为赌博让那些不关心的人变得更加关心。
Why are so many people so interested in eSports?
为什么这么多人对电子竞技如此感兴趣？
Have regular sports failed us?
常规运动让我们失望了吗？
What’s going on there?
那里发生了什么事？
I think the fact that, for a lot of people, their relationship to gaming starts so early that they perceive it as really no different than an athletic sport, except they were never comfortable playing athletic sports, and this is a way to do it.
我认为，对于很多人来说，他们与游戏的关系很早就开始了，以至于他们认为游戏与体育运动没有什么不同，只是他们从来不舒服地玩体育运动，而这是一种做到这一点的方式。
Seeing people do it at the highest level — to them it’s not any different than watching LeBron James.
看到人们在最高水平上做到这一点——对他们来说，这与观看勒布朗·詹姆斯没有任何不同。
It is strange.
这很奇怪。
My son is eight.
我儿子八岁了。
He will watch YouTube clips of people playing video games.
他会观看 YouTube 上人们玩电子游戏的视频。
It seems bizarre to me.
我觉得这很奇怪。
It doesn’t seem remotely strange to him.
这对他来说一点也不奇怪。
When you teach writing, how is it that you teach that’s different from how other people teach writing?
当你教写作时，你教的方式与其他人教写作的方式有何不同？
I’m probably worse.
我可能更糟。
Okay, but how are you worse?
好吧，但是你怎么更糟了？
What is it you fail to succeed at?
你在什么方面未能成功？
Well, the most important quality of writing, in my view at least, is the unteachable element, which is voice.
嗯，至少在我看来，写作最重要的品质是不可教的元素，即声音。
If writing has voice, the content — I wouldn’t say it’s irrelevant, but voice can compensate for a lot.
如果写作有声音，那么内容 —— 我不会说它无关紧要，但声音可以弥补很多。
A lot of times, when you’re teaching kids about writing, they ask questions like, “How do you find your voice?” Or “How did you find your voice?” is something they often want to know.
很多时候，当你教孩子们写作时，他们会问这样的问题：“你如何找到自己的声音？”或者“你是如何找到自己的声音的？”是他们经常想知道的事情。
The reality is, your voice exists inside of you.
事实是，你的声音存在于你的内心。
You just have to pull it out.
你只需要把它拉出来。
You’re not finding it.
你没有找到它。
You’re not going to find it from reading other people.
你不会从阅读其他人的文章中找到它。
My take on this is, I think of my life, and there was this variety of writers.
我对此的看法是，我想到了我的生活，有各种各样的作家。
When I was in high school, I really liked Dave Barry.
当我在高中时，我非常喜欢戴夫·巴里。
Then I went to college and I was into Douglas Coupland.
然后我上了大学，迷上了道格拉斯·库普兰。
Then, I was into Raymond Carver for a while, and so I’d want to read all of this, and then it was like, “Oh, Michael Lanier.” I thought that was really great.
然后，我迷上了雷蒙德·卡佛一段时间，所以我想读所有这些，然后就像是，“哦，迈克尔·拉尼尔。”我觉得那真是太棒了。
Then David Foster Wallace — I was obsessed with that, but he was the last one.
然后是大卫·福斯特·华莱士——我对此很着迷，但他是最后一个。
I think that you don’t become a writer until you no longer want to be like other writers.
我认为，除非你不再想像其他作家一样，否则你不会成为一名作家。
That’s sort of the key.
这就是关键。
The key is getting beyond the idea that there is some idea of what you think writing is that you can somehow match or find or replicate.
关键是要超越这样的想法，即你认为所写的内容是你可以以某种方式匹配、找到或复制的。
And you just go off and do your own thing that only you can do.
然后你就去做你自己的事情，只有你能做的事。
I feel pretty strongly about that, but there again, I’m going by my experience.
我对此有强烈的感觉，但我还是以我的经验为准。
You can teach mechanical aspects of writing to someone, and you can make one little jump.
你可以向某人教授写作的机械方面，并且你可以做出一点小小的跳跃。
You can make somebody who’s very mediocre into okay, and you can turn somebody who’s okay into pretty good, and somebody who’s pretty good, maybe you can make very good.
你可以把一个很平庸的人变成还好，你可以把一个还不错的人变成很好，而一个很不错的人，也许你可以变得非常好。
But to really change the experience for people consuming that work, to take someone and say, “If you do these things, you’ll be able to become the writer you want.” It doesn’t seem like that’s how it works to me.
但要真正改变人们消费该作品的体验，就可以对某人说：“如果你做了这些事情，你就能够成为你想要的作家。”对我来说似乎不是这样的。
I taught a writing class, and I think it was kind of useless.
我教过写作课，我觉得这没什么用。
In the same way, when I was in college, I was an editor at the school paper.
同样，当我上大学时，我是校报的编辑。
I found that I was a real bad editor because I had two natural inclinations that were dissident.
我发现我是一个非常糟糕的编辑，因为我有两种持不同政见的自然倾向。
Either I would be like, “I’m going to rewrite everything in this because this is terrible.” Or I would be like, “That’s him, it’s her, she gets to do what she wants, just put it through.” It’s hard for me to be that middle person because anytime I read anything, any book I read, as I’m reading it, I’m changing the sentences in my mind That’s how I’ve always been.
我要么会说，“我要重写其中的所有内容，因为这太糟糕了。”或者我会说，“那就是他，就是她，她可以做她想做的事，只要坚持到底。”对我来说，成为那个中间人很难，因为每当我读任何东西，读任何书，当我读它的时候，我都会改变我脑海中的句子，这就是我一直以来的样子。
Now, you’ve put out a deck of cards called HYPERtheticals.
现在，你已经拿出了一副名为 HYPERtheticals 的牌。
I’ll ask you one of your own questions.
我会问你一个你自己的问题。
Here I’m quoting you: “Every person you have ever slept with is invited to a banquet where you are the guest of honor.
我在这里引用你的话：“每一个和你睡过的人都会被邀请去参加一场宴会，而你是那里的主宾。
No one will be in attendance except you, the collection of your former lovers, and the caterers.
除了你、你的前情人以及餐饮承办商之外，没有人会出席。
After the meal, you’re asked to give a 15-minute speech to the assembly.
餐后，您将被要求在大会上发表 15 分钟的演讲。
What do you talk about?”
你们在聊什么？”
Well, the thing I always think about with this question is, what is the likelihood that the people at this banquet are going to recognize why they are there?
嗯，我一直在思考这个问题是，参加这场宴会的人们认识到他们为何来到这里的可能性有多大？
That’s never said in the question.
问题中从未说过这一点。
Some people hear that question, and they assume they have been asked to this event for this reason, and they’re coming because they are part of this weird sorority or whatever.
有些人听到这个问题，他们认为他们是因为这个原因被邀请参加这个活动的，他们来是因为他们是这个奇怪的联谊会或其他什么的一部分。
Then some people imagine the people are just there.
然后有些人想象人们就在那里。
They don’t know why they’ve been asked.
他们不知道为什么有人问他们。
They don’t know what the relationship is to each other.
他们不知道彼此之间是什么关系。
That’s usually how I think of it, that the people in this room — they don’t know why they’re there.
我通常是这么想的，这个房间里的人 ——他们不知道自己为什么会在那里。
If they know each other, it’s by chance, and they happen to know each other in life.
如果他们认识，那是偶然，也是生活中碰巧认识的。
So, I would probably give a speech where I would go over the trajectory of my life and discuss all of the things about the past that I regret.
所以，我可能会发表演讲，回顾我的人生轨迹，讨论所有让我后悔的过去的事情。
I feel, by doing that, it would somehow connect with every person there.
我觉得，通过这样做，它会以某种方式与那里的每个人建立联系。
You’re with your parents in the honesty room.
你和你的父母一起在诚实室里。
You can ask them any question.
你可以问他们任何问题。
They’ll give you an honest answer.
他们会给你一个诚实的答案。
What do you ask them?
你问他们什么？
Well, my dad is dead now.
嗯，我爸爸现在已经死了。
My mom is very old.
我妈妈很老了。
What’s interesting about that is, at one point, I interviewed my parents.
有趣的是，有一次，我采访了我的父母。
I thought, I’m just going to ask them about their life.
我想，我只是想问问他们的生活。
I put a tape recorder on, and I asked my parents questions.
我打开录音机，向父母询问问题。
My dad loved this.
我爸爸喜欢这个。
My dad talked about every detail of his life.
父亲讲述了他生活中的每一个细节。
My mom was like interviewing Thom Yorke.
我妈妈就像采访汤姆·约克。
She didn’t want to say anything.
她什么也不想说。
She did not want to give me a response to anything, even the simplest questions.
她不想给我任何答复，即使是最简单的问题。
I guess what I would ask them is sort of a narcissistic question.
我想我会问他们一个有点自恋的问题。
I would ask them, “Are you proud of me?
我会问他们：“你们为我感到骄傲吗？
Are you happy with the person I turned out to be?” Because that’s very important to me, and I know they would never give me a real answer on that, but somehow if they’re in this hypothetical question, I could.
你对我现在的样子满意吗？”因为这对我来说非常重要，我知道他们永远不会给我一个真正的答案，但如果他们提出这个假设的问题，我可以。
I’ll always wonder that.
我会一直想知道这一点。
Did they think you were cooler than Billy Joel?
他们认为你比比利乔尔酷吗？
Well, my parents wouldn’t know who Billy Joel is.
好吧，我的父母不会知道比利·乔尔是谁。
COWEN: Probably yes?
考恩：可能是的？
I don’t really care if my parents think I was cool.
我真的不在乎我的父母是否认为我很酷。
My fear always was that .
我的恐惧一直是这样。
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.
。
The difference between my life and my parents’ life and their experience — I can’t prove this, but I think it’s probably greater than most writers.
我的生活和我父母的生活以及他们的经历之间的差异 —— 我无法证明这一点，但我认为这可能比大多数作家都要大。
Due to the age of my parents, the level of poverty they grew up in, the fact that we were in such a rural place — they’ve never totally understood anything about my career.
由于我父母的年龄，他们成长的贫困程度，以及我们生活在这样一个农村地区的事实——他们从来没有完全理解我的职业生涯。
I hope they haven’t read my books, but even if they have, I don’t think it would make any sense to them.
我希望他们没有读过我的书，但即使他们读过，我也不认为这对他们有任何意义。
Maybe the novel Downtown Owl might, but none of the other ones.
也许小说《市中心猫头鹰》可能会，但其他小说都不会。
Yet they can also see how other people react to me.
但他们也可以看到其他人对我的反应。
They have a sense that somehow I did okay or whatever.
他们有一种感觉，不知怎的，我做得还不错，或者其他什么。
I would like to know if they feel I made them proud, or if it’s embarrassing that I ended up becoming the person I am.
我想知道他们是否觉得我让他们感到骄傲，或者我最终成为现在的样子是否感到尴尬。
That’s probably what I would ask them.
这可能就是我会问他们的问题。
I know which answer I would bet on.
我知道我会押注哪个答案。
Crypto — does it represent the final break with the 1990s?
Crypto — 它是否代表着与 20 世纪 90 年代的最终决裂？
Shouldn’t that be something I should be asking you about?
这不应该是我应该问你的事情吗？
Because to me, cryptocurrency — I didn’t know anything about it, so I was like, “Well, I should look into this, just to understand it.”
因为对我来说，加密货币 ——我对此一无所知，所以我想，“好吧，我应该研究一下这个，只是为了理解它。”
It’s very difficult to understand, as far as I can tell.
据我所知，这很难理解。
I came across something, an idea that I’m wondering what you will say, as an economist.
我遇到了一些事情，一个想法，我想知道作为一名经济学家你会说什么。
My assumption always was that cryptocurrency, in some ways, was like we’re breaking away from the way money used to be, and there’s a real opportunity to make a lot of money in this kind of Wild West scenario.
我一直认为加密货币在某种程度上就像我们正在摆脱过去的货币方式一样，在这种狂野的西部场景中确实有机会赚很多钱。
I came across some information that seemed to suggest that for someone like me, it might be smart to look at cryptocurrency as a safety net in fear that the US economy collapses or the world economy collapses.
我发现一些信息似乎表明，对于像我这样的人来说，由于担心美国经济崩溃或世界经济崩溃，将加密货币视为安全网可能是明智之举。
Is there any value in looking at cryptocurrency, not as this radical change, but as a backup?
看待加密货币是否有任何价值，不是作为这种彻底的改变，而是作为一种备份？
Early crypto prices are very countercyclical.
早期的加密货币价格非常反周期。
They’re like gold once had been.
它们就像曾经的黄金一样。
In more recent times, crypto prices have become highly cyclical, that is, they move with everything else.
近年来，加密货币价格变得高度周期性，也就是说，它们随着其他一切而变化。
Now, what would happen if a big part of the world collapsed?
现在，如果世界的很大一部分崩溃了，会发生什么？
I would say, we don’t know.
我想说，我们不知道。
I suspect some small percentage of your portfolio should, in fact, be in crypto, just because it helps you diversify.
我怀疑你的投资组合中的一小部分实际上应该是加密货币，只是因为它可以帮助你实现多元化。
I see the world as follows.
我所看到的世界如下。
Every decade, to me, is super weird, but the 1980s and ’90s pretended they weren’t weird.
对我来说，每十年都非常奇怪，但 80 年代和 90 年代却假装它们并不奇怪。
The ’80s pretended to be good versus evil.
八十年代假装善与恶。
The ’90s pretended that good won.
90 年代假装正义获胜。
But when crypto comes and persists, you have to drop all pretense that the age you’re living in isn’t totally weird.
但当加密货币出现并持续存在时，你必须放弃所有的假装，以为你生活的时代并不完全奇怪。
You have internet crypto, and everyone admits, right now, everything’s weird.
你有互联网加密货币，每个人都承认，现在一切都很奇怪。
And that, to me, is the fundamental break with the 1990s because everyone pretended most things were normal and that Seinfeld was your dose of weird, right?
对我来说，这是与 20 世纪 90 年代的根本决裂，因为每个人都假装大多数事情都很正常，而《宋飞正传》就是你的怪异剂，对吧？
Jason Alexander — that’s a very manageable weird.
杰森·亚历山大（Jason Alexander）——这是一个非常容易控制的怪人。
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
Some guy in an apartment in New York City cracking sarcastic jokes — like, whoop-de-do.
纽约市一间公寓里的某个人正在讲讽刺笑话——就像“百日咳”一样。
The ’90s — there was not the sense that culture was unraveling, which I think is a common feeling now.
90 年代——没有文化正在瓦解的感觉，我认为这是现在的普遍感觉。
That crisis is not unmanageable.
这场危机并非无法控制。
I have a financial adviser, and he always wants me to take more risks.
我有一位财务顾问，他总是希望我承担更多风险。
But I always have this fear that at some point, the way the economy of the United States works — it could just collapse.
但我总是担心，在某个时候，美国经济的运作方式可能会崩溃。
He always tells me, “Well, if that’s your concern, it’s a concern for everybody.
他总是告诉我，“好吧，如果这是你关心的问题，那么这也是每个人都关心的问题。
You can’t build that into your portfolio, the idea of what happens if there’s a catastrophic end to capitalism.”
你不能将这种想法纳入你的投资组合中，即如果资本主义发生灾难性终结会发生什么。”
As an economist, what is the likelihood of — the way our economy is built — just completely hemorrhaging and falling apart?
作为一名经济学家，“我们的经济构建方式”完全失血和崩溃的可能性有多大？
Would you say there’s a 2 percent chance of that?
你说有2%的可能性吗？
A 20 percent chance of that?
有百分之二十的可能性吗？
Is it always 50–50?
总是50-50吗？
I don’t think economists are especially able to judge that.
我不认为经济学家特别能够判断这一点。
I am mostly optimistic, and the biggest risks I worry about are at the level of international peace: China, Taiwan, Russia, Ukraine, right?
我大多持乐观态度，我担心的最大风险是国际和平层面的：中国、台湾、俄罗斯、乌克兰，对吧？
Big problems that I’m sure I don’t understand, but I’m not sure they’re going to work out well.
我确信我不理解这些大问题，但我不确定它们能否得到很好的解决。
I used to think the countercyclical asset was to have a second residence or savings in some other country.
我曾经认为逆周期资产是在其他国家拥有第二居所或储蓄。
But increasingly, I’m wondering if the countercyclical asset isn’t the United States, and you’re already, in a sense, overinvested in it.
但我越来越想知道，反周期资产是否不是美国，而从某种意义上说，你已经对其进行了过度投资。
Maybe it’s parts of Florida are the countercyclical asset.
也许佛罗里达州的部分地区是反周期资产。
Wouldn’t that be weird?
那不是很奇怪吗？
How about North Dakota, even?
北达科他州怎么样？
Not impossible, right?
并非不可能，对吧？
Like buying land, you’re saying?
你是说就像买土地一样？
There’s fracking, climate change — it could become warmer — all the better for agriculture.
还有水力压裂、气候变化——“气候可能会变得更温暖——”对农业来说更加有利。
I know there are nuclear silos there, but I don’t really think anyone’s going to attack.
我知道那里有核发射井，但我真的不认为有人会发动攻击。
You can have cheap hobbies, watch basketball, enjoy the internet, listen to your music till you die.
你可以有廉价的爱好，看篮球，享受互联网，听音乐，直到死去。
My guess is you’re more invested in the countercyclical assets than your adviser thinks and than you think, which does mean you can take more risk.
我的猜测是，你对反周期资产的投资比你的顾问和你想象的要多，这确实意味着你可以承担更多的风险。
It’s the person who lives, say, in Singapore, where if China becomes a truly dominant Pacific power, might start feeling they’re screwed.
比如说，这个人生活在新加坡，如果中国成为太平洋上真正的主导力量，他们可能会开始觉得自己完蛋了。
They’re the ones that have a hard time truly diversifying.
他们是那些很难真正实现多元化的人。
You don’t.
你不知道。
It might be, though, just what your personality is like.
不过，这可能就是你的个性。
There’s a certain personality whose goal seems to be to make more money, and my personality is, “Don’t lose the money you’ve made.” I seem so lucky to have had things work out the way they have.
有些人的目标似乎是赚更多的钱，而我的个性是，“不要失去你赚到的钱。”我似乎很幸运能够让事情按照现在的方式发展。
My fear always is that, in the end, I’m going to have nothing again.
我总是担心，到最后，我会变得一无所有。
Somehow, I’m going to have put all this time in, and done all of these things to accumulate this wealth that seemed absolutely unfathomable to me for most of my life, but somehow, I’m going to end up exactly the way I started.
不知何故，我会投入所有的时间，做所有这些事情来积累这些财富，这对我来说在我一生的大部分时间里似乎绝对是深不可测的，但不知何故，我最终会像我开始的那样。
It’s not going to happen unless you blow it through some weird addiction.
除非你克服了一些奇怪的瘾，否则这不会发生。
I would say high-quality real estate and cheap hobbies — I’m sure you have at least one of those right now, probably both — are the best hedges.
我想说的是，高质量的房地产和廉价的爱好 ——我相信你现在至少拥有其中之一，可能两者都有——是最好的对冲。
You’ve got them.
你已经拥有它们了。
Take more risk.
承担更多风险。
Okay.
好的。
You are human capital, right?
你是人力资本，对吗？
No one can touch that, short of you destroying yourself or just dying.
没有人能触碰它，除非你毁灭自己或者直接死去。
The more money you spend .
您花的钱越多。
.
。
.
。
like spending money is insuring against an early death, because if I hit 96 years old and I’m broke, I’m like, “Oh my goodness.
就像花钱是为了防止早逝一样，因为如果我到了 96 岁却破产了，我会想，“天哪。
I made it to 96.
我已经到了96级了
I can at least read Wikipedia every day.
我至少每天可以阅读维基百科。
This is still pretty awesome.”
这还是相当厉害的。”
Do you have kids?
你有孩子吗？
Oh, you did, you said that.
噢，你做到了，你也这么说过。
Yes.
是的。
She’s a huge fan of yours.
她是你的超级粉丝。
She just had a daughter, a baby girl — beautiful.
她刚刚有了一个女儿，一个女婴——很漂亮。
I can enjoy her for free.
我可以免费享受她。
I’m hedged.
我是对冲的。
The real risk is premature death, in my view.
在我看来，真正的风险是过早死亡。
You want to do things that are fun now, so if you die when you’re 63, you still will feel, “I got my stuff in,” whatever that’s going to be, and I bet you do that.
你现在想做一些有趣的事情，所以如果你在 63 岁时去世，你仍然会觉得，“我把我的东西都放进去了”，不管那会是什么，我打赌你会这么做。
Well, that’s an interesting way to look at it, I guess.
嗯，我想这是一种有趣的看待方式。
I don’t know if I look at it that way; 63 — I’m 14 years away from that.
我不知道我是否这么看； 63 — 我距离那个目标还有14年。
Do I even look 14 years ahead?
我是否会展望未来 14 年？
I don’t think I do.
我不这么认为。
I feel like I’m almost trapped in this perpetual now, where it’s hard for me to think about my life in the future but very easy to fixate on my life in the past.
我觉得我现在几乎陷入了这种永恒的境地，我很难去思考我未来的生活，但很容易专注于我过去的生活。
It probably means you should take more risk.
这可能意味着您应该承担更多风险。
If you just hold safe assets, and we have above-average inflation, you get hammered, right?
如果你只持有安全资产，而我们的通胀率高于平均水平，你就会受到重创，对吗？
You lose compound returns every year, that cumulates.
你每年都会损失复合回报，这是累积的。
Real estate, equities — you at least have a chance of outrunning the demon, so to speak.
房地产、股票——可以这么说，你至少有机会摆脱恶魔。
You can always earn more.
你总是可以赚更多。
That’s another great thing about being in your position.
这是处于你的位置的另一件好事。
True.
真的。
Until you’re senile, you can supply more labor, earn more, give talks, write more books, consult, teach — whatever you want to do.
直到你老了，你可以提供更多的劳动力，赚更多的钱，发表更多的演讲，写更多的书，咨询，教书——任何你想做的事。
You’re golden.
你是金色的。
Well, we’ll see.
好吧，我们拭目以待。
We’ll see.
我们会看到的。
We will see.
我们会看到。
That brings me to my final question, but first, I’d like to plug Chuck’s book, The Nineties.
这引出了我的最后一个问题，但首先，我想插入查克的书《九十年代》。
On the cover, it’s called The Nineties: A Book.
封面上写着《九十年代：一本书》。
I promise you, it is a book.
我向你保证，这是一本书。
You turn to the inside — it’s just The Nineties.
你转向内部 —— 这只是九十年代。
This is an excellent, fascinating book about the ’90s, a decade which also I will recommend.
这是一本关于 90 年代的优秀而引人入胜的书，我也会推荐这十年。
But final question: what is it you will do next?
但最后一个问题是：接下来你会做什么？
Oh, like what writing project I have next?
哦，比如我接下来有什么写作计划？
Doesn’t have to be writing.
不一定要写。
It could just be “I’m going to spend a year watching high school basketball.” Or “I’m going to listen to all my heavy metal records again.” Anything.
可能只是“我要花一年时间看高中篮球赛”。或者“我要再听一遍我所有的重金属唱片。”任何事物。
Your true project, the one you haven’t told anyone about.
你真正的项目，一个你没有告诉任何人的项目。
That I haven’t told anyone about.
我没有告诉过任何人。
Well, I am just trying to appreciate the high likelihood that in some distant future, I will look back at this period of my life as the best period I had.
好吧，我只是想体会一下，在遥远的未来，我很可能会回顾我生命中的这段时期，认为这是我度过的最美好的时期。
I’m trying to stay conscious of that as it’s happening.
我正在努力保持对正在发生的事情的意识。
My daughter is six, and she still likes me to lay in bed with her and hold her hand before she falls asleep.
我女儿六岁了，她仍然喜欢我和她一起躺在床上，在她入睡前握着她的手。
Sometimes that’s a drag.
有时这会是一种拖累。
Last night, for example, I wanted to see what was going on in the football game, and I was, “Well, you know .
例如，昨晚，我想看看足球比赛中发生了什么，我说：“嗯，你知道。
.
。
.”
”。
But then, another part of me is like, when I am dying, and I’m thinking about the moments in my life that mattered, it’s probably going to be things like lying in bed with my daughter and holding her hand in this extraordinarily intimate situation.
但是，我的另一部分就像，当我快要死的时候，我在思考我生命中重要的时刻，可能会是像和我女儿躺在床上，在这种非常亲密的情况下握着她的手这样的事情。
We’re so close to each other, both physically and intellectually, that if I could build a time machine on my deathbed, that’s probably where I’d go back to.
我们在身体上和智力上都非常接近，如果我能在临终前建造一台时间机器，那可能就是我会回到的地方。
What I’m really trying to do now is try to be cognizant of the fact that all of the things that I wanted in life — I’ve got them, but it’s way beyond it.
我现在真正想做的是认识到这样一个事实：我在生活中想要的所有东西 —— 我已经得到了它们，但它远远超出了它。
I don’t know what you’re supposed to do when your actual life has completely usurped any dreams you had, but that’s totally how it is.
我不知道当你的现实生活完全取代了你的梦想时你应该做什么，但事实就是这样。
Like I said, I used to read Spin magazine in college.
就像我说的，我在大学时读过 Spin 杂志。
When I worked there in the early 2000s, all my friends from college were like, “Ah, your dream, you’ve realized your dream.” I was like, “I never dreamt that when I was reading that magazine.
2000 年代初期，当我在那里工作时，我所有的大学朋友都说，“啊，你的梦想，你已经实现了你的梦想。”我当时想，“当我读那本杂志时，我从未梦想过这一点。
I knew somebody wrote it, but I didn’t think I could get that job.” I never imagined.
我知道有人写了它，但我不认为我能得到那份工作。”我从来没有想象过。
I was always thinking if I wrote one book in my life, that would be amazing, but now I’ve written 12.
我一直在想，如果我一生能写一本书，那就太棒了，但现在我已经写了 12 本书。
Why doesn’t that make me completely happy?
为什么这不能让我完全快乐？
Why am I not completely satisfied by the fact that everything that I was hoping for has not only happened but happened many times over?
为什么我对我所希望的一切不仅发生而且多次发生这一事实并不完全满意？
Because it doesn’t.
因为事实并非如此。
In some fundamental way, you stay the same.
从某种根本上来说，你保持不变。
In some ways, I feel the same as I did 30 years ago, even though my life then — I would never want to really revisit except maybe on a vacation, but I wouldn’t want to re-experience it.
在某些方面，我的感觉和 30 年前一样，尽管我当时的生活 —— 除了度假之外，我永远不想真正重温它，但我不想重新体验它。
That’s not really an answer to the question, but I guess the answer is that I’m almost not thinking about what’s next.
这并不是问题的真正答案，但我想答案是我几乎没有考虑接下来会发生什么。
I’m trying to think about what I’m doing now and failing.
我正在尝试思考我现在正在做的事情以及失败的事情。
There’s an old 17th-century French saying I’m quite fond of, and it goes something like, “Things are never as good or as bad as they seem.”
我很喜欢一句 17 世纪的法国谚语，大概是这样的：“事情从来不像看起来那么好或那么坏。”
It’s true.
这是真的。
Hey, I wanted to ask you something, though.
嘿，不过我想问你一件事。
Yeah, sure.
是的，当然。
Before I did this podcast, I listened to your podcast with Žižek.
在我做这个播客之前，我听了你和齐泽克的播客。
Oh yeah, that was hilarious.
哦，是的，那太搞笑了。
Are you friends with him?
你和他是朋友吗？
It sure seemed like it.
看起来确实是这样。
And if you are, what is it like to be with him when he is not in a performative scenario?
如果你是，当他不在表演场景时和他在一起感觉如何？
I met him at that event.
我在那次活动中认识了他。
I had a breakfast with him, like the day before the talk.
我和他一起吃了早餐，就像演讲前一天一样。
He and I hit it off very well and just spent three, four hours going crazy, talking at each other.
他和我很合得来，我们花了三四个小时疯狂地互相交谈。
We became friendly but hadn’t met before.
我们变得友好，但之前从未见过面。
There’s only one mode of engaging with him.
与他互动的方式只有一种。
And for me, it was fun because he’s one of the few people I’ve met — you can ask him a question about anything, and whether or not you agree — and often I don’t — he has an intelligent, informed answer immediately on tap, full of detail, and he can run with it.
对我来说，这很有趣，因为他是我见过的为数不多的人之一 ——你可以问他任何问题，无论你是否同意 ——但我常常不同意——他会立即给出明智、明智的答案，充满细节，而且他可以接受它。
A lot of times, it’s interesting.
很多时候，这很有趣。
Oh, it’s always interesting.
哦，这总是很有趣。
Although one thing that, over time, I have come to realize is that a lot of his responses to things are always driving back to some of these things he likes to think about.
尽管随着时间的推移，我逐渐意识到一件事是，他对事物的很多反应总是会回到他喜欢思考的一些事情。
Of course.
当然。
You probably saw this.
你可能看到了这个。
He recently reviewed the new Matrix movie.
他最近评论了新的《黑客帝国》电影。
It was this really good review, and then at the end, he’s like, “Also, I have not seen Matrix, and that proves my point.” I was like, “Well, in a way it does.” In a strange way, it was like the epitome that you could look at something and have it only mean things outside of itself, so much so, you don’t even have to look at the thing itself, but yeah.
这是一篇非常好的评论，最后他说，“而且，我还没有看过《黑客帝国》，这证明了我的观点。”我当时想，“嗯，在某种程度上确实如此。”以一种奇怪的方式，它就像一个缩影，你可以看着某样东西，让它只意味着它本身之外的东西，以至于你甚至不必看东西本身，但是是的。
COWEN: I think he’s underrated.
COWEN：我认为他被低估了。
He has his cult followers, and presumably a lot of them overrate him, but a lot of serious people don’t think of him as a force.
他有他的狂热追随者，想必其中很多人都高估了他，但很多认真的人并不认为他是一股力量。
He is, as a person, truly a force, in a way not actually that many thinkers are.
作为一个人，他确实是一种力量，但在某种程度上实际上并不像许多思想家那样。
So I’m a big fan, even though I really don’t agree that much with him.
所以我是他的忠实粉丝，尽管我真的不太同意他的观点。
Oh, so am I, but the underrated-overrated thing — it’s hard to place on him because, in a sense, his notoriety for what he does completely goes beyond the vast majority of people who are philosophers or whatever.
哦，我也是，但是低估-高估的事情 ——很难归咎于他，因为从某种意义上说，他的恶名完全超出了绝大多数哲学家或其他什么人的范畴。
In that sense, if you go from an individual’s importance to their field relative to their notoriety in that field, I think he might be at the top of that.
从这个意义上说，如果你从一个人对其领域的重要性相对于他们在该领域的恶名来看，我认为他可能处于领先地位。
It is just not many people — I think Cornel West maybe, or whatever.
只是人不多 ——我想也许是康奈尔·韦斯特，或者其他什么。
You find a few people who are philosophers who are famous.
你会发现一些著名的哲学家。
But in terms of his ideas themselves, they could be underrated because I think that his notoriety is very often used against him.
但就他的想法本身而言，它们可能被低估，因为我认为他的恶名经常被用来对付他。
The fact that he’ll talk about Titanic or whatever in this very commercial way builds in this assumption that these ideas must not be really meaningful as much as they are attention-grabbing.
事实上，他会以这种非常商业化的方式谈论泰坦尼克号或其他任何东西，这一事实建立在这样的假设之上：这些想法一定不会像它们吸引注意力那样真正有意义。
In some weird way, he’s a little bit like Evan Dando of the Lemonheads, where Evan Dando of the Lemonheads was making records that people made fun of and didn’t take seriously because he was so overtly handsome.
在某种奇怪的方面，他有点像柠檬头乐队的埃文·丹多，柠檬头乐队的埃文·丹多制作的唱片被人们取笑并且不认真对待，因为他太帅了。
He was good-looking in an obvious way.
显而易见，他长得很帅。
There was this assumption, particularly at that time in the ’90s, that if you were conventionally good-looking, or banal good looks or whatever, that made people look at his songwriting as, “Oh, meaningless.”
有这样的假设，特别是在 90 年代的那个时候，如果你长得传统上好看，或者平庸的好看或其他什么，这会让人们认为他的歌曲创作“哦，毫无意义”。
Now we go back and listen to him as a songwriter — it’s like, “Oh, well, he is real good.” He was better than most.
现在我们回去听他作为歌曲作者的声音——就像，“哦，好吧，他真的很棒。”他比大多数人都好。
We thought he was bad because he was handsome.
我们认为他很坏，因为他很帅。
I think sometimes people think that Žižek is full of shit because he’s famous, but that’s not necessarily true.
我想有时人们会认为齐泽克是满嘴狗屎，因为他很有名，但这不一定是真的。
His best side, I think, is his Hegelian side, when he insists the truth is to be found in the reconciliation of diametrically opposing ideas, and then he’s quite good.
我认为，他最好的一面是黑格尔式的一面，当他坚持认为真理是在截然相反的观点的调和中找到的时候，那么他就相当出色了。
If he gets too wrapped up in Marx or some of the heavier continental stuff, sometimes I just think he is drifting.
如果他过于沉迷于马克思或一些更重的大陆性的东西，有时我只是认为他在随波逐流。
It’s also amazing when you’re with him, how he uses his body.
当你和他在一起时，他如何利用自己的身体，这也很令人惊奇。
It’s such an integral part of how he thinks and talks, and a lot of us aren’t used to that.
这是他思考和说话方式不可或缺的一部分，而我们很多人都不习惯这一点。
He is hurling his whole body at you all the time, and how he moves is part of his thought, and that’s a funny notion, but you need to meet him to grasp him.
他一直把整个身体都扔向你，他的动作是他思想的一部分，这是一个有趣的想法，但你需要遇见他才能抓住他。
Well, physicality is part of charisma.
好吧，身体素质是魅力的一部分。
Of course.
当然。
Charisma is a real thing, and in a way, I think sometimes we put charisma into a category like grit or like authenticity.
魅力是真实存在的，在某种程度上，我认为有时我们将魅力归入像勇气或真实性这样的类别。
It’s like, “Well, it’s a thing that we throw at people when we write about them, and it’s just this imaginary construct.” But I have found, over and over again, that charisma is one of the realest things in the experience of being alive.
就像，“嗯，这是我们在写人们的作品时扔给他们的东西，这只是一个想象的结构。”但我一次又一次地发现，魅力是生活体验中最真实的东西之一。
There are people who are different when you’re around them than they are when you see them on a screen or you read them, and it changes everything.
当你在他们身边时，有些人的表现与你在屏幕上看到他们或阅读他们时的表现有所不同，这会改变一切。
Then there are some people who can transmit that charisma through the screen or through the page.
然后有些人可以通过屏幕或页面传播这种魅力。
In some ways, it’s just the most attractive quality a performer can have, and the most desirable.
在某些方面，这是表演者可以拥有的最有吸引力的品质，也是最令人向往的品质。
I said voice is the most important part of writing.
我说声音是写作中最重要的部分。
There’s also a voice to his identity, just his being.
他的身份也有一个声音，就是他的存在。
He’s an athlete in a funny way.
有趣的是，他是一名运动员。
Yes, but what’s weird is, even the things that we’re saying about him could be used as evidence for the criticisms of him.
是的，但奇怪的是，甚至我们所说的关于他的事情也可以用作批评他的证据。
Here I am talking about how I like this philosopher, and I’m bogged down on the fact that he has charisma that can break through a TV screen or whatever.
这里我说的是我多么喜欢这位哲学家，我陷入了他拥有突破电视屏幕或其他什么的魅力这一事实。
That’s not philosophy.
那不是哲学。
I always think when I write stuff, my goal is to be as accessible as possible.
我一直认为，当我写东西时，我的目标是尽可能地易于理解。
My self-editing is constantly making sentences straighter and more simple and more clear, but then you can become accessible to a fault, where it looks easy to some people.
我的自我编辑不断地让句子变得更直、更简单、更清晰，但这样你就可能会犯错误，而这对某些人来说似乎很容易。
And it also seems obvious to people because it hits someone so directly that they assume that they thought that themselves, which in some ways, the weird goal is to make the person feel like they’re writing the book as they read it.
这对人们来说似乎也是显而易见的，因为它如此直接地打击了某人，以至于他们认为他们自己认为是他们自己，从某种程度上来说，奇怪的目标是让人们在读这本书时感觉自己正在写这本书。
But if you succeed at that goal, they’re going to think you’re a bad writer.
但如果你成功实现了这个目标，他们就会认为你是一个糟糕的作家。
It’s strange.
很奇怪。
You might like the book less years from now, also.
几年后你可能也会喜欢这本书。
Sure.
当然。
Are you writing for your current self, your future self?
你是在为现在的自己、未来的自己而写作吗？
Even your past self, you might write for, and you’ve written about this issue yourself, as you well know.
即使是你过去的自己，你也可能会为之写作，而且你自己也写过这个问题，正如你所知。
Yes.
是的。
True.
真的。
Anyway, it’s been great chatting with you.
不管怎样，和你聊天真是太棒了。
Again, Chuck Klosterman, The Nineties: A Book.
再次，查克·克洛斯特曼（Chuck Klosterman），《九十年代：一本书》。
I should probably tell you, my name is actually pronounced kl-OH-ster-man.
我也许应该告诉你，我的名字实际上发音为 kl-OH-ster-man。
Oh, apologies, Chuck kl-OH-ster-man.
哦，抱歉，Chuck kl-OH-ster-man。
I hate telling people that because there’s no umlaut over it.
我讨厌告诉人们这一点，因为它没有变音。
I don’t care.
我不在乎。
My dad used to always say, “Well, you should tell people to pronounce your name right.” My son — he now goes by Klosterman.
我爸爸过去总是说：“好吧，你应该告诉人们正确地发音你的名字。”我的儿子——他现在的名字是克洛斯特曼。
It’s really funny.
真的很有趣。
He’s eight, but he’s made the decision.
他八岁了，但他已经做出了决定。
You know what?
你知道吗？
He’s totally right.
他是完全正确的。
I spent all this time telling people like radio hosts, “Just so you know, I don’t really care, but my name is klOHsterman.” Well, if I don’t care, why am I telling people?
我花了很多时间告诉广播主持人等人，“只是让你知道，我真的不在乎，但我的名字是 klOHsterman。”好吧，如果我不在乎，我为什么要告诉别人呢？
I feel this obligation to do it.
我觉得有义务这样做。
I felt obligated to tell you, even though, if anybody now realizes you mispronounced my name, they’ve listened to an hour and a half of a podcast.
我觉得有义务告诉你，尽管如此，如果有人现在意识到你念错了我的名字，他们已经听了一个半小时的播客了。
What do they care now?
他们现在关心什么？
COWEN: I face the COH-wen/COW-en issue, and it’s COW-wen.
COWEN：我面临着 COH-wen/COW-en 问题，而且是 COW-wen。
People think it’s COH-wen.
人们认为是COH-wen。
That’s what I thought, good thing I didn’t —
我就是这么想的，幸好我没有 ——
It’s Irish, COW-wen, but I let people say COH-wen.
这是爱尔兰语，COW-wen，但我让人们说 COH-wen。
Eh, whatever, you know.
呃，无论如何，你知道。
I guess it’s the strange thing about names.
我想这就是名字的奇怪之处。
It’s the most and least important thing about you.
这是对你来说最重要和最不重要的事情。
It really is.
确实如此。
You have a baby, and you’re coming up with its name, and any name can work.
你有了一个孩子，你正在给他起名字，任何名字都可以。
Yet, the thing you do name it is going to be the one thing that’s going to follow that person for the totality of their life.
然而，你所命名的那件事将是跟随那个人一生的一件事。
It means nothing.
这没有任何意义。
It’s just a collection .
这只是一个集合。
.
。
.
。
You could name your kid Stick, and it would be fine.
你可以给你的孩子起名叫Stick，那就没问题了。
If my name was Stick Klosterman, nothing about me would probably be different.
如果我的名字叫斯蒂克·克洛斯特曼，我可能不会有什么不同。
And then part of me is like, “Or would it?” If I had went by Charles Klosterman instead of Chuck Klosterman —
然后我的一部分就像，“或者会吗？”如果我用查尔斯·克洛斯特曼而不是查克·克洛斯特曼 ——
That would be different.
那会有所不同。
— would I be taken more seriously?
— 我会被更认真地对待吗？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Would I be seen differently?
我会被以不同的方式看待吗？
Chuck makes it seem like I just came off the football field.
查克让我看起来就像刚从足球场上下来一样。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I have no idea if my life would be different if I had gone by Charles.
我不知道如果我选择了查尔斯，我的生活是否会有所不同。
Or if I had gone by Charlie, would I be more playful?
或者如果我是查理，我会更贪玩吗？
It’s often the combination of names that matters.
通常重要的是名称的组合。
Like in my case, Tyler and Cowen — they’re not rare, but together, you just don’t find them much.
就像我的例子一样，泰勒和考恩——他们并不罕见，但放在一起，你就很难找到他们了。
If someone combines the two, I figure they’re close enough.
如果有人将两者结合起来，我认为他们已经足够接近了。
They could even call me Tyrone Cowen, and it’s, well, you know, someone will think it’s me.
他们甚至可以叫我泰隆·考恩，嗯，你知道，有人会认为是我。
Tyler seems like a more modern name.
泰勒似乎是一个更现代的名字。
If I only knew your name, I’d assume you were younger.
如果我只知道你的名字，我就会认为你更年轻。
I was the only Tyler in my day, like the only one.
我是我那个时代唯一的泰勒，就像唯一的一个。
Henry Kissinger’s dog was named Tyler.
亨利·基辛格的狗名叫泰勒。
There was no other kid named Tyler.
没有其他孩子叫泰勒。
Now it’s one of the more common names.
现在它是更常见的名称之一。
Was that the reason you were named Tyler — because of Kissinger’s dog?
这就是你被命名为泰勒的原因吗——因为基辛格的狗？
My father really wanted to name me Tyrone because of Tyrone Power, the movie star, whom he liked.
我父亲很想给我起名叫泰隆，因为他喜欢电影明星泰隆·鲍尔。
My mother thought that was crazy, and she insisted on it being knocked down to Tyler, and they compromised on Tyler.
我母亲认为这太疯狂了，她坚持要把它推给泰勒，他们在泰勒身上妥协了。
That’s the story.
这就是故事。
It worked out.
成功了。
It worked out, yes.
结果成功了，是的。
My parents wanted to name me Fred, Frederick, but my sister, who was three years older, couldn’t say “Fred.” She said “Fwed.” Even though she was only three, for some reason, my parents were like, “Well, that will be a problem.” So then they named me Charles.
我的父母想给我起名叫弗雷德，弗雷德里克，但比我大三岁的姐姐不能说“弗雷德”。她说：“去吧。”尽管她只有三岁，但出于某种原因，我的父母说：“好吧，这将是一个问题。”于是他们给我起名叫查尔斯。
I always think if I had been named Freddy, if I had been Freddy Klosterman, somehow that makes me seem like I would have had a career as a con artist or something, where I was trickier, you know?
我总是想，如果我叫弗雷迪，如果我叫弗雷迪·克洛斯特曼，不知何故，这让我看起来像是一个骗子之类的职业，我在这方面更狡猾，你知道吗？
Freddy is a horror movie name.
弗雷迪（Freddy）是一个恐怖电影的名字。
I think you don’t want to be a Freddy.
我认为你不想成为弗雷迪。
Well, now, only if it’s a y.
好吧，现在，只要它是 y。
Now, if somebody has a y at the end, but if it’s F‑R‑E‑D‑D‑I‑E, that doesn’t really seem like a horror movie thing.
现在，如果有人末尾有 y，但如果是 F-R-E-D-D-I-E，那看起来真的不像恐怖电影。
On YouTube, it’s all Freddy, right?
在 YouTube 上，都是 Freddy，对吧？
Yes, I don’t know.
是的，我不知道。
When did it become more common to have to spell the word “Jon” J‑O‑N, than J‑O‑H‑N?
从什么时候开始，拼写“Jon”J-O-N 一词变得比 J-O-H-N 更常见了？
Sure seems like that.
当然看起来是这样。
I realize there are J‑O‑N Jons throughout time, but when I was a kid, every John was J‑O‑H‑N.
我意识到自始至终都有 J-O-N Jons，但当我还是个孩子的时候，每个约翰都是 J-O-H-N。
Now, is that because I came from a place where everybody was Catholic and Lutheran?
现在，这是因为我来自一个人人都是天主教徒和路德教徒的地方吗？
Is J‑O‑N often used — seems like a lot of Jewish guys named Jon often have J‑O‑N, but just younger people .
J-O-N 经常被使用吗 ——似乎很多名叫 Jon 的犹太人经常使用 J-O-N，但只是年轻人。
.
。
.
。
Now it seems like J‑O‑N is more common than J‑O‑H‑N.
现在看来 J-O-N 比 J-O-H-N 更常见。
I don’t know when that happened.
我不知道那是什么时候发生的。
I think a key thing for your kid — you want your kid to be Googleable if you have any faith in them at all, right?
我认为对你的孩子来说最重要的是——如果你对你的孩子有信心的话，你希望他们能够被谷歌搜索到，对吗？
You don’t think they’ll be a convicted criminal, in which case you want them not to be Googleable, but if your kid’s John Smith, who can find them?
你不认为他们会是一个被定罪的罪犯，在这种情况下你不希望他们被谷歌搜索到，但如果你的孩子是约翰·史密斯，谁能找到他们呢？
Say you want to hire John Smith, you want to get a date with John Smith.
假设您想雇用约翰·史密斯，您想与约翰·史密斯约会。
You Google “John Smith,” you’re screwed.
你用谷歌搜索“约翰·史密斯”，你就完蛋了。
Wouldn’t it always be an advantage to be unGoogleable, to have the inability for someone to find you easily?
无法通过 Google 搜索、别人无法轻松找到您，这难道不是一个优势吗？
Once they meet you, they’ll be able to find you.
一旦他们见到你，他们就能找到你。
They’ll know other things about you.
他们会了解有关您的其他事情。
If all they know is your name, I think it would be better if you were unfindable, if that’s all they know.
如果他们只知道你的名字，我想如果他们只知道你的名字，那么找不到你会更好。
Look, it’s clearly better for you that you’re findable.
瞧，如果你能被找到，显然对你来说更好。
Someone types your name into Amazon search, right?
有人在亚马逊搜索中输入你的名字，对吗？
True.
真的。
Your actual books come up.
你的实际书籍出现了。
Yes, that’s true.
是的，确实如此。
Same for me.
对我来说也一样。
More and more areas are becoming like what we do.
越来越多的领域正在变得像我们所做的那样。
You don’t have to be a writer, but someone hears about you, and they might want to offer you something.
你不必成为一名作家，但有人听说过你，他们可能想为你提供一些东西。
If you want to cooperate with people, on average, more than you want to run away from them, you want your kid’s name to be Googleable.
平均而言，如果你想与人合作，而不是想逃离他们，那么你希望你孩子的名字可以在谷歌上搜索到。
That’s a good argument, I guess.
我想这是一个很好的论点。
That’s a good argument against anonymity.
这是反对匿名的一个很好的论据。
That could be a book title, Against Anonymity.
这可能是一本书的标题，《反对匿名》。
That seems like it would sell now, you know what I’m saying?
看起来现在就可以卖了，你知道我在说什么吗？
David Brin wrote a book like that, called The Transparent Society.
大卫·布林写了一本类似的书，名叫《透明社会》。
I think he overlooked some of the costs to that.
我认为他忽略了其中的一些成本。
But yes, at least for your kid, you want to assume, on average, your kid will be successful like you’ve been, and on average, that’s a pretty good guess.
但是，是的，至少对于你的孩子来说，你想假设，平均而言，你的孩子会像你一样成功，平均而言，这是一个很好的猜测。
Well, I hope you’re right about that, you know.
好吧，我希望你是对的，你知道。
I hope you are.
我希望你是。
I hope people are Googling him in a positive way.
我希望人们以积极的方式谷歌搜索他。
Your kids will have your talents, on average, and the talents of other parents, and that’s good.
平均而言，你的孩子将拥有你的才能，以及其他父母的才能，这很好。
But it really is “on average.” There are seven kids in my family, and there are strong similarities visually, or our use of our hands when we talk and maybe our fundamental ideas about, oh, money and safety and spirituality and stuff.
但这确实是“平均水平”。我家里有七个孩子，在视觉上有很强的相似性，或者我们说话时用手的用法，也许我们关于金钱、安全、灵性等等的基本想法。
But skills-wise, it’s pretty disconnected.
但就技能而言，这是相当脱节的。
I think that, on average, of course, what you’re saying is true, but I wonder how much.
我认为，平均而言，你所说的当然是正确的，但我想知道有多少是正确的。
I have two kids, and I’m shocked by how different they are.
我有两个孩子，我对他们的不同感到震惊。
It seems like they should be more similar than they are.
看起来他们应该比实际情况更相似。
They have the same parents, they’re having the exact same experience, so I don’t know.
他们有相同的父母，他们有完全相同的经历，所以我不知道。
It’s interesting.
这很有趣。
But you compare them to other kids — then they look a lot more similar.
但你将他们与其他孩子进行比较——然后他们看起来更加相似。
Yes, but the way they interact with other kids is really the key difference.
是的，但他们与其他孩子互动的方式确实是关键的区别。
That is how they seem different to me — the way they view how they operate in society, and what they want from other people, and what they want from friendships, and what they want from themselves.
这就是他们在我看来的不同之处——他们看待自己在社会中的运作方式、他们想从别人那里得到什么、他们想从友谊中得到什么、以及他们想从自己身上得到什么。
What I’m saying is that it’s not like they’re so diametrically different I can’t believe they’re brother and sister, but —
我的意思是，他们并没有完全不同，我不敢相信他们是兄妹，但是 ——
They’re also playing niche strategies within the family, and they’ll become more similar as they age.
他们也在家庭内部采取利基策略，随着年龄的增长，他们会变得更加相似。
Yes, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Genes will matter more.
基因会更重要。
The niche strategies will matter less.
利基战略将不再那么重要。
Definitely, having kids does seemingly solve the nature versus nurture thing.
当然，生孩子似乎确实解决了先天与后天的问题。
It does.
确实如此。
It seems like nature.
看起来就像大自然。
It really seems obvious, but you can’t tell that to somebody because now, to say that somehow seems like, I don’t know, they think you’re a eugenicist or something.
这看起来确实很明显，但你不能告诉别人，因为现在，说这句话似乎是，我不知道，他们认为你是优生学家之类的。
You’re somehow claiming that the experience of society doesn’t matter, but I think the experience of society generally makes people more similar.
你在某种程度上声称社会经历并不重要，但我认为社会经历通常会让人们更加相似。
It’s their nature that makes them different.
他们的本性使他们与众不同。
Their peers may matter more than the direct environment of their parents, especially over time.
他们的同龄人可能比父母的直接环境更重要，尤其是随着时间的推移。
Not at age 6, but at age 14, for sure.
当然不是6岁时，而是14岁时。
I think even now, to some degree, more than I would have liked.
我认为即使是现在，在某种程度上，也超出了我的预期。
Anyway, it’s been wonderful.
不管怎样，这真是太棒了。
Oh yes, thanks for having me on.
哦，是的，谢谢你邀请我。
I really appreciate it.
我真的很感激。
It was an interesting conversation.
这是一次有趣的谈话。
Thumbnail photo credit: Joanna Ceciliani
缩略图照片来源：Joanna Ceciliani