Chris Arnade on Walking Cities (Ep. 246)
Thanks to Steve Alexandrowski, CFP of GEM Asset Management, for sponsoring this transcript.
感谢 GEM 资产管理公司的 CFP Steve Alexandrowski 赞助了这份文字记录。
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today, I’m chatting, live and in person, with Chris Arnade.
今天，我正在与克里斯·阿纳德 (Chris Arnade) 进行现场聊天。
Chris has a long, interesting, and varied history.
克里斯有着悠久、有趣且多变的历史。
He started with a PhD in particle physics from Johns Hopkins, was then a bond trader on Wall Street for about 20 years.
他从约翰·霍普金斯大学获得粒子物理学博士学位，随后在华尔街担任债券交易员约 20 年。
Had a life course shift around 2011 where he started traveling around lower-income America, and he became quite famous for what you might call photojournalism, his writings about lower income America, and also Trump voters.
2011 年左右，他的人生轨迹发生了转变，他开始周游低收入美国，并因所谓的新闻摄影、有关低收入美国以及特朗普选民的文章而闻名。
He published a very well-known book called Dignity: Seeking Respect in Back Row America.
他出版了一本非常著名的书，名为《尊严：在美国后排寻求尊重》。
He is now, I would say, obsessed in the good sense with a new project, which is walking both walkable and non-walkable cities throughout the world.
我想说，他现在痴迷于一个新项目，该项目正在全世界步行和不适合步行的城市中行走。
He writes a Substack about his walking and his travels.
他写了一个关于他的步行和旅行的子堆栈。
Chris, welcome.
克里斯，欢迎。
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
If you had to live in either Beijing or Shanghai for 10 full years, which one would you pick and why?
如果你必须在北京或上海生活10年，你会选择哪一个？为什么？
I was actually thinking about that a lot on the airplane.
事实上，我在飞机上思考了很多。
I couldn’t come up with an answer.
我想不出答案。
I think Beijing ultimately, because there was just more there.
我认为最终是北京，因为那里还有更多。
Shanghai, I had a better experience in.
上海，我有更好的经历。
I think the reason I liked Shanghai more initially was just because of my location.
我想我最初更喜欢上海的原因只是因为我的地理位置。
I had a good location.
我有一个很好的位置。
I was right next to People’s Park, and I had a good four or five days.
我就在人民公园旁边，玩了四五天。
Beijing grew on me with time though.
但随着时间的推移，北京对我的吸引力越来越大。
I just thought there was more there.
我只是以为那里还有更多。
I think I would much prefer Beijing.
我想我更喜欢北京。
It feels more intellectual, and there’s a greater variety of Chinese foods there.
感觉比较知性，而且里面的中餐种类也比较多。
I didn’t do as much time as I usually do in a city when I was in both Shanghai and Beijing.
当我在上海和北京时，我并没有像平时在城市里待的那么多时间。
I usually try to spend at least 10 days in a place.
我通常会尝试在一个地方呆至少 10 天。
In both cases, because of visa constraints, I was there for six or less days.
在这两种情况下，由于签证限制，我在那里停留的时间都不超过六天。
The food thing to me that was interesting was, what I had hoped to find in China I didn’t find, which was, I thought I was going to have a Taipei-like experience where there was just going to be a variety of different foods all over the place on the streets.
对我来说，有趣的食物是，我希望在中国找到的东西却没有找到，那就是，我以为我会获得类似台北的体验，街道上到处都是各种不同的食物。
I was eating in mall food courts.
我在商场美食广场吃饭。
There was a lot of diversity there, but it felt very hard to choose because it was all crammed together in these small food courts.
那里有很多多样性，但感觉很难选择，因为所有的东西都挤在这些小美食广场里。
On a Scottian view of Chinese cities
苏格兰人对中国城市的看法
If you had to explain the fundamental difference between the residents of the two places in as small a number of dimensions as possible, how would you explain it to an outsider?
如果你必须在尽可能小的维度上解释两地居民之间的根本区别，你会如何向外人解释？
In those two —
在这两个 ——
Beijing versus Shanghai.
北京对阵上海。
I don’t have a good answer to that one because I don’t feel like I know either of them well enough.
对于这个问题我没有一个好的答案，因为我觉得我对他们中的任何一个都不够了解。
How would you do it?
你会怎么做？
Shanghai — what is status is money and conspicuous consumption.
上海 —— 地位就是金钱和炫耀性消费。
In Beijing, what is status is power.
在北京，地位就是权力。
In a funny way, that intersects with making the city more intellectual, having better bookstores, and having ties to more of China.
有趣的是，这与让这座城市变得更加知识分子、拥有更好的书店以及与更多中国地区建立联系相交叉。
Shanghai is more tied to the outside world, which is maybe better for the city, but for me, makes it less interesting.
上海与外界的联系更加紧密，这也许对这座城市来说更好，但对我来说，却让它变得不那么有趣。
It was interesting because I didn’t get as much of a sense of those places as you did.
这很有趣，因为我对这些地方的了解不像你那么多。
I felt the overwhelming feature to me — and what frustrated me in some ways — was how similar Shanghai and Beijing were, that they were inscrutable to me at the level I do things.
我感到压倒性的特征对我来说——并且在某些方面让我感到沮丧——上海和北京是多么相似，在我做事的层面上，它们对我来说是难以理解的。
A lot of that may be the way I approach learning, which is simply to walk 15 miles, and they’re not particularly walkable cities.
其中很多可能是我学习的方式，就是步行 15 英里，而它们并不是特别适合步行的城市。
Right.
正确的。
That’s one of the things I’ve come to have to deal with in my project is, I walk to learn, but some places that’s not actually the right approach.
这是我在项目中必须处理的事情之一，我步行学习，但有些地方实际上并不是正确的方法。
In both cases, the analogy I use — because I walked 15 miles in Beijing and 15 miles in Shanghai — I kept on saying that it felt like I was in one of those cheap cartoons where the background kept repeating.
在这两种情况下，我使用的类比——因为我在北京走了 15 英里，在上海走了 15 英里——我一直说，感觉就像在那些背景不断重复的廉价卡通片中。
It was frustrating to me in the sense of, I didn’t feel like I got a sense of either place, at least, at the granular level like I usually do when I do what I do.
这让我感到沮丧，因为我觉得我对这两个地方都没有任何感觉，至少在粒度层面上，就像我在做我所做的事情时通常所做的那样。
I don’t know if that was intentional, that’s how the cities are designed to be uniform, to remove any differences.
我不知道这是否是故意的，这就是城市设计的统一方式，以消除任何差异。
I think parts of Beijing are designed to discourage protests and demonstrations, and that correlates with being hard to walk.
我认为北京的部分地区是为了阻止抗议和示威而设计的，这与步行困难有关。
It doesn’t explain the whole pattern.
它没有解释整个模式。
I was thinking in particular of that approach.
我特别想到了这种方法。
I’ve been reading James C.
我一直在读 James C.
Scott who writes a lot about the idea of regulation as control, or top-down regulation as control.
斯科特写了很多关于“监管即控制”或“自上而下监管即控制”这一概念的文章。
That’s certainly the case in Beijing, where gone are the small winding dens of small neighborhoods because those are hard to control.
北京的情况确实如此，小社区的小窝点已经不复存在，因为它们难以控制。
They’re much easier if you replace them by 50-story towers with a mall next to it.
如果你用 50 层高的塔楼取代它们，旁边有一个购物中心，那就容易多了。
And surveillance.
还有监视。
And surveillance.
还有监视。
What struck me when I was in Beijing — not so much the difference between Beijing and Shanghai, but how top-down regulation is often designed very intentionally for control.
当我在北京时，令我印象深刻的是——与其说北京和上海之间有太大区别，不如说自上而下的监管往往是为了控制而有意设计的。
Beijing in particular feels that way.
北京尤其有这种感觉。
That’s what frustrated me initially.
这就是最初让我沮丧的原因。
I had said — because I do all these trips, something seat of the pants — I landed and I said, “Oh, I’ll just walk to Tiananmen Square.” Well, I just can’t do that.
我说过 —— 因为我做了所有这些旅行，凭感觉 —— 我落地后说，“哦，我就步行去天安门广场。”好吧，我就是做不到。
I did that once, but it wasn’t easy.
我曾经这样做过，但这并不容易。
I actually got there even though I had found out along the way that you had to .
我实际上到达了那里，尽管我一路上发现你必须这样做。
.
。
.
。
I went through six security checks or five security checks, and I was supposed to have had a QR code where I’d signed up for it, and I didn’t.
我经历了六次安全检查或五次安全检查，我应该有一个我可以注册的二维码，但我没有。
I just walked by.
我刚刚路过。
What I wrote about was there being what I call a totalitarian anarchy, which is, I think they intend to be control-y, but they don’t pull it off very well.
我写的是存在我所说的极权主义无政府状态，也就是说，我认为他们想要控制，但他们做得不太好。
They’re just too incompetent to pull it off.
他们太无能，无法实现这一目标。
Some of that’s a bit deliberate though.
不过，其中有些有点故意。
I think they feel that if people have a sense of partial freedom, they can control them better along the dimensions they want to, and they’re probably correct.
我认为他们认为，如果人们有一种部分自由的感觉，他们就可以沿着他们想要的维度更好地控制他们，他们可能是正确的。
That’s what I thought about with the firewall, which is, everybody has a VPN, and everybody knows everybody has a VPN, so there really isn’t a firewall, but it’s the idea that you regulate people by making sure that the people who can’t get enough together to figure out how to get around it, don’t get around it.
这就是我对防火墙的想法，即每个人都有一个 VPN，每个人都知道每个人都有一个 VPN，所以确实没有防火墙，但它的想法是通过确保那些无法足够多地聚集在一起找出如何绕过它的人来监管人们，而不是绕过它。
COWEN: The VPN’s also a way to monitor them, right?
COWEN：VPN 也是监控他们的一种方式，对吧？
Yes, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
You can’t actually trust the VPN supplier.
你实际上不能信任 VPN 供应商。
I don’t like to be conspiratorial because I think that’s often wrong, but I did notice my VPN clunked out at very odd moments.
我不喜欢阴谋，因为我认为这通常是错误的，但我确实注意到我的 VPN 在非常奇怪的时刻出现故障。
I was there during the actual election and —
实际选举期间我就在场并且 -
The US election?
美国大选？
Yes.
是的。
When I was following, I noticed that my VPN went out at very inopportune times when there was stuff going on that probably would have been fun to watch, or wasn’t convenient.
当我跟踪时，我注意到我的 VPN 在非常不合时宜的时候断开了，当时发生的事情可能很有趣，或者不方便。
So you think the loosey-goosey approach is actually intentional?
那么你认为这种松散的做法实际上是故意的吗？
I’m not sure they have the option of cracking down entirely, but I think they have come to terms with the partial controls, and they found that it’s still working, and until it starts not working, don’t try too hard to fix it.
我不确定他们是否可以选择完全打击，但我认为他们已经接受了部分控制，并且他们发现它仍然有效，并且在它开始不起作用之前，不要太努力地修复它。
What do you think ultimately is driving them though?
您认为最终推动他们发展的因素是什么？
What is their goal here?
他们来这里的目的是什么？
When you say them, if you mean the —
当你说它们时，如果你的意思是 ——
The CCP.
中共。
The inner committee of the CCP — I think it is to make China “a great nation again,” to drive the United States out of Asia, to have much of the world kowtow to China, to have China be rich, never democratic, and stable.
中共内部 ——我认为是让中国“再次成为一个伟大的国家”，把美国赶出亚洲，让世界大部分地区向中国卑躬屈膝，让中国变得富裕，而不是民主和稳定。
Now, all that together is probably impossible, but it’s not a crazy set of goals.
现在，所有这些加在一起可能是不可能的，但这并不是一组疯狂的目标。
They’re not my goals.
它们不是我的目标。
What struck me and one of the things I wrote about on both the pieces, was I kept thinking of them as a guardian class incorporating Plato’s Republic.
令我印象深刻的以及我在这两篇文章中所写的事情之一是，我一直将它们视为包含柏拉图理想国的守护阶级。
They really do think of themselves as the guardian class whose goal is to build the best society.
他们确实认为自己是守护阶级，其目标是建设最好的社会。
I just don’t know what they’re working towards, because if they’re working towards increasing material wealth, they’re doing well.
我只是不知道他们在努力做什么，因为如果他们努力增加物质财富，他们就做得很好。
But if the end point is someplace like Korea, Korea’s famously not particularly happy.
但如果终点是像韩国这样的地方，韩国就不会特别高兴。
COWEN: I don’t think that’s their goal, but I think they want China to be happy enough.
考恩：我不认为这是他们的目标，但我认为他们希望中国足够幸福。
I don’t think they’re not altruists.
我不认为他们不是利他主义者。
I just think it’s a very nationalistic view of altruism where Chinese lexically come before other considerations.
我只是认为这是一种非常民族主义的利他主义观点，中文在词汇上优先于其他考虑因素。
Anyone who’s ethnic Chinese ultimately falls under their purview, which is also different than, say, an American view.
任何华裔最终都属于他们的职权范围，这也不同于美国人的观点。
I’m going back again because I find it so fascinating, because I don’t understand it to the degree I feel like I understand other places.
我会再次回去，因为我发现它是如此迷人，因为我对它的理解程度不像我对其他地方的理解那样。
Other places, I come away with a pretty quick sense of describing a town in some ways.
在其他地方，我很快就能以某种方式描述一个城镇。
But both Beijing and Shanghai felt a little bit .
但北京和上海都有一点感觉。
.
。
.
。
Maybe it’s the scale because, again, they’re not really smart places to walk.
也许是规模的原因，因为它们并不是真正适合步行的地方。
Right.
正确的。
I find it’s oddly like America in a number of ways.
我发现它在很多方面都与美国非常相似。
I think you’ve written about this, too.
我想你也写过这个问题。
Inward-looking, large, self-confident, business-oriented, pretty friendly, pragmatic.
内向、大、自信、以业务为导向、相当友好、务实。
I think a lot of the CCP plan is improvised rather than planned.
我认为中共的很多计划都是即兴的而不是计划好的。
Something like the fertility crisis, I think they were not expecting.
像生育危机这样的事情，我认为他们没有预料到。
Really no one was.
确实没有人。
They don’t know what to do.
他们不知道该怎么办。
They’ll try different things, and the larger the scale at which you operate, the more the so-called plan just becomes improvisation.
他们会尝试不同的事情，经营规模越大，所谓的计划就越成为即兴创作。
Again, it’s the problem that comes with top-down management, which is, sometimes, you just get it wrong.
再说一遍，这是自上而下管理带来的问题，有时，你只是搞错了。
You just get it wrong.
你只是搞错了。
I think they’re deathly afraid of disorder and civil war, given their history, in a way we are not.
我认为，考虑到他们的历史，他们对动乱和内战极度恐惧，而我们则不然。
To me, what’s interesting about it is how explicit the top-down organization is at the built level as well as at the cultural level.
对我来说，有趣的是自上而下的组织在构建层面和文化层面上是多么明确。
Everything is micromanaged, again, with a loosey-goosey approach to give a little bit of wiggle room.
再次，一切都是微观管理的，采用松散的方法来提供一点回旋余地。
The image I will always have of, at least Shanghai, one of the initial images is how .
我对上海的印象永远是这样，至少是上海，最初的印象之一就是这样。
.
。
.
。
Asia has very rambunctious cities, and what I like about Asian cities is they have an organic street life, a low regulatory, organic street life.
亚洲有非常喧闹的城市，我喜欢亚洲城市的一点是它们有有机的街道生活，监管程度低、有机的街道生活。
That is gone in China.
这在中国已经消失了。
To have gone from Taipei to Shanghai to see that, and that lack of organic street life is intentional.
从台北到上海看到这一点，缺乏有机的街头生活是故意的。
They say, “We don’t like this.”
他们说：“我们不喜欢这样。”
There was this neighborhood I was walking through in Shanghai where they had bought up the entire neighborhood.
我在上海走过一个街区，他们买下了整个街区。
It had been an old neighborhood, and it was slated for development into a business park–style living.
它曾经是一个老街区，计划开发成商业园式的居住区。
They had replaced where there had been stores with murals of store life.
他们用反映商店生活的壁画取代了原来的商店。
It’s just too spot on for what they’re doing, which is, removing actual organic street life and replacing it with cartoon images of it.
这对于他们正在做的事情来说太恰当了，即去除实际的有机街头生活并用卡通图像取而代之。
You should try Kunming, by the way, if you haven’t been there.
顺便说一下，如果你还没有去过昆明，你应该尝试一下。
It still has organic street life, as does much of western China.
与中国西部的大部分地区一样，这里仍然拥有有机的街头生活。
It’s more fun.
更有趣。
It feels less authoritarian.
感觉不那么专制了。
I’m going to Xi’an next trip.
下次我要去西安。
That also has organic street life.
那也有有机的街头生活。
The further west you go, the harder it is to get a visa.
越往西走，签证就越难。
Yes, but you should be able to get to Kunming without problems.
是的，但是你应该可以毫无问题地到达昆明。
In Xi’an, try the cherries.
在西安，尝尝樱桃。
They’re fantastic.
他们太棒了。
On favorite McDonald’s locations
在最喜欢的麦当劳地点
Now, which is more interesting in a major Chinese city, a McDonald’s or a KFC, Kentucky Fried Chicken?
那么，在中国大城市，麦当劳和肯德基、肯德基哪个更有趣呢？
Everybody told me KFC, and I stuck with McDonald’s because of my past history with McDonald’s.
每个人都告诉我肯德基，而我因为过去吃麦当劳的历史而坚持选择麦当劳。
What struck me about Beijing and China, in both cases was it’s the one time on my trips.
北京和中国给我留下深刻印象的是，这都是我旅行中的唯一一次。
I famously have become, online, the McDonald’s guy because I read a lot about McDonald’s in the US and the role of McDonald’s in the US.
众所周知，我在网上成为了麦当劳的人，因为我读了很多有关美国麦当劳以及麦当劳在美国所扮演的角色的文章。
Whenever I go overseas, people expect me to use McDonald’s, but I just don’t use them because people don’t use them.
每当我出国时，人们都希望我去麦当劳，但我就是不去，因为人们不去。
There’re alternatives.
还有其他选择。
Japan has 7-Elevens and Izakayas, and in other countries there’re other forms of what I would say organic food spaces.
日本有 7-11 便利店和居酒屋，其他国家也有其他形式的有机食品空间。
In Beijing, it was McDonald’s.
在北京，是麦当劳。
It was interesting.
这很有趣。
It served the same role it does in the US for very different reasons, which is, in the US, McDonald’s is the place people go because it’s functional relative to the neighborhood.
它在美国扮演着同样的角色，但出于非常不同的原因，也就是说，在美国，麦当劳是人们去的地方，因为它相对于社区来说很实用。
McDonald’s in Beijing — people go because it’s dysfunctional relative to the neighborhood in terms of regulatory rate.
北京的麦当劳——人们去是因为它在监管方面相对于附近地区来说功能失调。
You just can go and relax.
你可以去放松一下。
I went to a few KFCs to use the bathroom, but I don’t like fried chicken.
我去了几家肯德基上厕所，但我不喜欢炸鸡。
I just do not like it.
我只是不喜欢它。
I don’t like fried foods in general so I didn’t really spend time there.
我一般不喜欢油炸食品，所以我并没有真正花时间在那里。
I found myself spending a lot of time in the McDonald’s in China.
我发现自己花了很多时间在中国的麦当劳。
I find them to be really wonderful places.
我发现它们真是很棒的地方。
My favorite McDonald’s in the world is in Auckland, New Zealand, which is the world’s largest Polynesian city.
世界上我最喜欢的麦当劳位于新西兰奥克兰，这是世界上最大的波利尼西亚城市。
McDonald’s there often serves as the center for Polynesian gatherings, not just Māori —
那里的麦当劳经常成为波利尼西亚人的聚会中心，而不仅仅是毛利人——
I can imagine that, yes.
我可以想象，是的。
— but Cook Islands, Tongans, Fiji.
——但是库克群岛、汤加、斐济。
Yes, I can see that.
是的，我看得出来。
If you’re ever in Auckland, it has a phenomenal McDonald’s.
如果你在奥克兰，那里有一家很棒的麦当劳。
The mixing that takes place in McDonald’s is absolutely amazing.
麦当劳里发生的混合绝对是令人惊叹的。
In the US, it’s absolutely amazing, similarly across the world.
在美国，这绝对是令人惊奇的，在世界各地也是如此。
Again, a lot of other countries have other things that serve that role.
同样，许多其他国家还有其他东西可以发挥这一作用。
Where’s your favorite McDonald’s in the world?
世界上你最喜欢的麦当劳在哪里？
My favorite McDonald’s in the world?
世界上我最喜欢的麦当劳？
The one I probably use the most is in LA.
我最常使用的可能是在洛杉矶。
Where in LA?
在洛杉矶哪里？
In East LA.
在东洛杉矶。
I don’t remember the name of the street.
我不记得那条街的名字了。
A lot of my book was written in it.
我的很多书都是在里面写的。
It’s in the East LA Mexican neighborhood.
它位于东洛杉矶墨西哥社区。
That should be a good one.
那应该是一件好事。
The name of the street is on the tip of my tongue.
街道的名字就在我的舌尖上。
There’s organic life there that is absolutely wonderful.
那里的有机生命绝对是美妙的。
I learned so much in that, because when I was in the US doing my project, I would literally just sit in McDonald’s at night and type up my notes.
我从中学到了很多东西，因为当我在美国做我的项目时，我实际上只是晚上坐在麦当劳里记下我的笔记。
So many of my stories would ultimately come from just being in McDonald’s, not trying to get stories.
我的很多故事最终都来自于麦当劳，而不是试图获取故事。
It’s funny to look back on that period because when you realize .
回顾那段时期很有趣，因为当你意识到时。
.
。
.
。
When I was doing this project on addiction and poverty, I would talk to people, and then I’d meet them at a McDonald’s, and then I would take them outside the McDonald’s to photograph them because it just didn’t seem photographic.
当我在做这个关于毒瘾和贫困的项目时，我会和人们交谈，然后我会在麦当劳与他们见面，然后我会带他们到麦当劳外面给他们拍照，因为这看起来不适合拍照。
Then I was like, “Wait a second.
然后我说：“等一下。
The fact that I’m meeting everybody at McDonald’s — that’s the story.” It’s just such a great community center for so many people.
事实上，我在麦当劳见到了每个人——这就是故事。”对于这么多人来说，这真是一个很棒的社区中心。
On Seoul
关于首尔
Why is Seoul, South Korea, possibly your favorite city?
为什么韩国首尔可能是您最喜欢的城市？
It’s got a functional dysfunction.
它有功能障碍。
It’s a little bit more dysfunctional, a little less uptight than Tokyo, but it has a lot of the same positive qualities of Tokyo, which is, it’s very safe, it’s very efficient.
与东京相比，它有点功能失调，不那么紧张，但它有很多与东京相同的积极品质，那就是，它非常安全，非常高效。
It’s got an amazing food scene if you like food.
如果您喜欢美食，这里有令人惊叹的美食场景。
It’s very active but it’s a little bit quirkier to me than Tokyo, and I feel like it’s a little bit less known, and I enjoy that.
它非常活跃，但对我来说比东京有点古怪，而且我觉得它不太为人所知，我很喜欢这一点。
Also, when I’m in a place, I like to get into a regular walk.
另外，当我在一个地方时，我喜欢定期散步。
I have a 10-mile walk there I absolutely love.
我非常喜欢步行 10 英里去那里。
I do it every day when I’m there.
当我在那里时，我每天都会这样做。
It had been an old drainage ditch, and it goes underneath subways, and it goes underneath interstates, and now it’s just this beautiful reclaimed 10-mile walk.
它曾经是一条古老的排水沟，它在地铁下面，在州际公路下面，现在它只是这条美丽的回收的 10 英里步行道。
What I like there is that the food scene is not Instagrammed to death.
我喜欢那里的食物场景并没有被 Instagram 晒死。
You can find an obscure place that’s more or less undiscovered — and it can be very good — in almost any neighborhood.
你可以找到一个或多或少未被发现的不起眼的地方——而且它可以非常好——几乎在任何社区。
Someone asked me about the best food, and I think if you measure the best food by the median food, I actually think Japan is still higher than Korea that way.
有人问我最好的食物，我想如果你用食物的中位数来衡量最好的食物，我实际上认为日本在这方面仍然高于韩国。
But they have the worst food also.
但他们也有最糟糕的食物。
Yes, you can get some really —
是的，你真的可以得到一些——
Disgusting things there.
那里有恶心的东西。
— disgusting.
—— 恶心。
The night before I got on a 15-hour flight, I had chicken sashimi.
在我搭乘 15 小时航班的前一天晚上，我吃了鸡肉生鱼片。
You should not have chicken sashimi.
你不应该吃鸡肉生鱼片。
I’ve refused.
我已经拒绝了。
I saw it and I was like, “No.”
我看到了它，我想，“不。”
I had two pieces down before I realized what it was, and I’m like, “Okay, if I’m going to die, I’m going to die.” But it wasn’t good.
在我意识到那是什么之前，我已经下了两块，我想，“好吧，如果我要死了，我就会死。”但这并不好。
It doesn’t look good either.
看起来也不太好。
Even for the risk, it wasn’t good.
即使有风险，这也不好。
I’ll take a risk if something tastes good.
如果东西好吃的话我会冒险。
Koreans have some weird food.
韩国人有一些奇怪的食物。
One of the things I like about Japan is, I can go to the 7-Eleven and get a good sandwich.
我喜欢日本的一件事是，我可以去 7-11 买一份美味的三明治。
Yes, very good food at the 7-Eleven.
是的，7-11 的食物非常好。
Sandwiches in the Korean 7-Elevens have a lot of sugar in them, sugar mixed with ham, things like that.
韩国7-11的三明治里有很多糖，糖里混着火腿之类的东西。
I actually think Japan has better food than Korea, but I agree with you that the Korean food scene is less understood by the West, and I think it’s less precious.
我实际上认为日本的食物比韩国更好，但我同意你的观点，韩国的食物场景不太被西方理解，而且我认为它不那么珍贵。
Some of the best food I’ve had in the world is in small places in Japan that are off the beaten track.
我吃过的一些世界上最好的食物都在日本人迹罕至的小地方。
Yes.
是的。
Now, in evaluating cities, how much do you take weather into account?
现在，在评估城市时，您会在多大程度上考虑天气因素？
I’ve been to Seoul at the end of November, which is not even the worst of the winter, and it was awful.
我11月底去过首尔，那甚至还不是最糟糕的冬天，而且很糟糕。
It was truly freezing.
真的很冷。
I love cold weather though.
不过我喜欢寒冷的天气。
I was just in Seoul three days ago.
三天前我刚在首尔。
When I got up in the morning, it was 18 degrees, and I love that.
当我早上起床时，气温是 18 度，我很喜欢这样。
I like cold weather.
我喜欢寒冷的天气。
If you don’t like cold weather, don’t go to Seoul.
如果你不喜欢寒冷的天气，就不要去首尔。
The thing is, the winds come off the mountains, and it’s really cold.
问题是，风从山上吹来，真的很冷。
When the winds come off, it’s really bitterly cold.
风一吹，真是冷得要命。
On dimensions of urban walkability
城市步行适宜性的维度
How much do you count air pollution for?
您认为空气污染有多少？
Because that’s going to hurt China, for walking especially.
因为这会伤害中国，尤其是步行。
I actually put together a metric on walkability.
实际上，我整理了一个关于步行能力的指标。
I had, I think, eight categories.
我想，我有八个类别。
Climate and crime and pollution are three big factors.
气候、犯罪和污染是三大因素。
People got on my ass for ranking LA relatively high as a walkability city.
人们因为洛杉矶作为步行城市的排名相对较高而对我感到不满。
Oh, I put it near the top.
哦，我把它放在靠近顶部的地方。
It’s got great weather.
天气很好。
If you can deal with some of the distances involved and lack of density, it’s got a fantastic bus system.
如果你能解决一些涉及的距离和密度不足的问题，那么它就有一个很棒的公交系统。
Part of being able to walk is, when you choose not to walk, you can just jump on public transportation.
能够步行的一部分是，当您选择不步行时，您可以直接乘坐公共交通工具。
It’s got an ubiquitous bus system that can get you pretty much everywhere.
它有一个无处不在的公交系统，可以带你去几乎任何地方。
It’s got great climate.
这里气候宜人。
It’s also just a visually impressive city.
这也是一座视觉上令人印象深刻的城市。
It’s got good skies.
这里有很好的天空。
It’s a very enjoyable place to walk and it’s got an amazing food scene.
这是一个非常适合散步的地方，而且还有令人惊叹的美食场景。
It’s got a better food scene than almost any place in the US.
它的美食环境比美国几乎任何地方都好。
Sure.
当然。
I once walked across Sao Paulo, which, in retrospect, was insane.
我曾经走过圣保罗，现在回想起来，那是一个疯狂的地方。
I wouldn’t do it today.
我今天不会这样做。
Yes, that’s tough.
是的，这很难。
It’s tough.
它太硬。
Do you remember which direction you walked?
你还记得你走过的方向吗？
No, but it was a very long walk.
不，但这是一段很长的步行路程。
The murder rate then was much higher, but street problems were much less frequent.
当时的谋杀率要高得多，但街头问题却少得多。
I’ve always found that a lot of the locals tell me not to go where I go, and I’ve never had a problem.
我总是发现很多当地人告诉我不要去我去的地方，而我从来没有遇到过问题。
I have zero jewelry on.
我身上的珠宝为零。
I never wear jewelry.
我从来不戴珠宝。
I dress very simply.
我穿得很简单。
I’ve just never had a problem.
我只是从来没有遇到过问题。
I think Latin America and Africa are some of the few places where there are real problems, and you do have to have a little bit of common sense.
我认为拉丁美洲和非洲是少数几个存在真正问题的地方，你必须有一点常识。
I walked all over Lima, Peru, when I was told not to, and I was fine.
当我被告知不要这样做时，我走遍了秘鲁利马，但我很好。
That’s okay.
没关系。
What’s your nomination for the least walkable city?
您提名的最不适宜步行的城市是哪座？
Phoenix is pretty bad.
菲尼克斯的情况实在是太糟糕了。
In the rest of the world, what was the lowest ranked of mine?
在世界其他地方，我的排名最低是多少？
I think Dakar is your lowest ranked.
我认为达喀尔是你们排名最低的。
Dakar is low.
达喀尔的车位很低。
I don’t find that so bad.
我觉得这还不错。
It was partially the heat.
部分原因是炎热。
Also, there was a safety issue, which is not actual violence.
此外，还有一个安全问题，这不是真正的暴力。
It’s just the risk of a miscommunication going very badly because when you’re in a neighborhood where they have a slum basically, where you’re one of few white people, it’s not that I feel threatened by being robbed.
这只是沟通不畅的风险，因为当你在一个基本上有贫民窟的社区时，你是少数白人之一，我并不是因为被抢劫而感到威胁。
I feel threatened that there can be miscommunication, like, “Why are you here?
我感到受到威胁，因为可能会出现沟通不畅的情况，比如，“你为什么在这里？
What are you doing here?” That can spiral out of control if you don’t speak the language.
你来这里做什么？如果你不会说这种语言，情况可能会失控。
Dakar was really tough.
达喀尔真的很艰难。
Kampala was really tough to walk.
坎帕拉真的很难走路。
Why’s that?
这是为什么呢？
I’ve never been there.
我从来没有去过那里。
Again, these are cities that are not meant to be walked.
再说一次，这些城市不适合步行。
Locals don’t walk them.
当地人不走路。
People would look at me like I’m crazy.
人们会看着我，就像我疯了一样。
Part of the reason, first of all, you can jump on a hack bus, so why would you walk?
部分原因是，首先，你可以跳上黑客巴士，那你为什么还要步行呢？
The boda-bodas, which are .
boda-bodas，即。
.
。
.
。
you just jump on the back of a motorcycle, which I won’t do.
你就跳到摩托车后座上，我不会这么做。
I did it once, and I’m like, “I’m not doing this.
我做过一次，然后我就想：“我不会这样做。
This is a really dumb risk.”
这是一个非常愚蠢的风险。”
Yes, I wouldn’t do that.
是的，我不会那样做。
I almost got killed the first time I did it, but they do it.
我第一次这么做的时候差点被杀，但他们还是这么做了。
Consequently, there’s no walking infrastructure and when you do walk, you’re at risk of being hit by a boda-boda.
因此，这里没有步行基础设施，当你步行时，你就有被博达博达击中的风险。
People will walk out of necessity but there’s just no infrastructure.
人们会出于需要而步行，但只是没有基础设施。
Absolutely none.
绝对没有。
Then you can get hit by a car.
然后你就可能会被车撞到。
You can get hit by a car or a motorcycle.
您可能会被汽车或摩托车撞到。
Rio, for me, would be the least walkable.
对我来说，里约是最不适合步行的地方。
It’s very dangerous but on top of that, there are so many places where walks end.
这非常危险，但最重要的是，有很多地方步行结束。
There’re mountains, there’re tunnels.
有山，有隧道。
I have not, in this recent project, gone to Brazil to walk, partly because when I was a banker, I spent a lot of time in Brazil, and so I don’t really want to go back.
在最近的这个项目中，我没有去巴西散步，部分原因是当我担任银行家时，我在巴西呆了很多时间，所以我真的不想回去。
I would imagine that, just connecting dots, Sao Paulo is a lot more walkable than Rio.
我想，仅将点连接起来，圣保罗就比里约更适合步行。
Sure.
当然。
Rio is — there’re just no-go zones.
里约是 —— 只有禁区。
Literally, those are dangerous.
从字面上看，这些都是危险的。
The topography of a place does determine its walkability.
一个地方的地形确实决定了它的步行能力。
Certain cities are just disjoined, and it’s really hard to walk.
有些城市四通八达，步行起来很困难。
One of my favorite cities in the world — and I quite enjoyed walking it — was Amman, Jordan.
世界上我最喜欢的城市之一——“而且我非常喜欢步行”——是约旦的安曼。
I would encourage people who listen to this .
我会鼓励那些听这个的人。
.
。
.
。
People are always like, “What’s a place that’s a relatively really undiscovered place?” It was safe.
人们总是会问，“什么地方是相对真正未被发现的地方？”很安全。
I went into some very “rough” neighborhoods, even though I was open to the people that I was Jewish.
我走进了一些非常“粗鲁”的社区，尽管我对人们开放我是犹太人。
Most of the Arab world is quite safe, I found.
我发现，阿拉伯世界的大部分地区都相当安全。
Exactly.
确切地。
Just, “Assalamu alaikum,” and you’re good.
只需“Assalamu alaikum”，就可以了。
It’s eight hills.
这是八座山。
There are climbs I was taking that it was just absurd.
我曾经经历过一些攀登，这简直是荒谬的。
I’m walking up basically 60 floors of steep flights.
我基本上是在 60 层楼的陡峭楼梯上行走。
You feel like a hero, and then a 60-year-old woman comes right past you, who’s been doing it all day with stuff on her back.
你感觉自己像个英雄，然后一个 60 岁的女人从你身边走过，她整天背着东西做这件事。
I don’t know if you’ve ever been there, but one of my favorite walkable cities was Alexandria, Egypt.
我不知道你是否去过那里，但我最喜欢的步行城市之一是埃及亚历山大。
I have not been.
我没有去过。
You have both the waterfront and streets with interesting buildings.
海滨和街道上都有有趣的建筑。
When I was there, at least, it was quite safe.
至少当我在那里的时候，那里是相当安全的。
It probably still is.
也许仍然如此。
I also do these long walks, like I walked across England, and I’ve walked across Japan.
我也会进行这些长途步行，就像我走过英格兰和日本一样。
I walk the Rhône Valley and I walk the Rhine Valley — 200-mile walks.
我走在罗纳河谷，我走在莱茵河谷 —— 200英里的步行路程。
It’s what I’ll do over the course of two weeks.
这就是我将在两周内做的事情。
That’s one of the ones I want to do, which is to walk basically down part of the Nile, up from Alexandria and down to Cairo in that region.
这是我想做的事情之一，基本上是沿着尼罗河的一部分步行，从亚历山大到该地区的开罗。
On physical bothers
关于身体上的困扰
What’s the greatest purely physical problem you have with all your walking?
您在步行过程中遇到的最大的纯粹身体问题是什么？
Heat, usually.
热，通常。
Heat exhaustion, because a lot of the interesting places are in very hot parts of the world.
中暑，因为很多有趣的地方都位于世界上非常炎热的地区。
Heat never bothers me.
炎热从来不会困扰我。
I feel very lucky.
我感到非常幸运。
It’s cold I hate.
我讨厌寒冷。
Dehydration and heat are my big problems because, again, places I find really interesting tend to be near the equator.
脱水和炎热是我的大问题，因为我发现真正有趣的地方往往位于赤道附近。
I don’t know how old you are, but as I’ve gotten older, I just can’t handle the heat.
我不知道你多大了，但随着年龄的增长，我实在无法忍受炎热。
Sixty-three.
六十三。
I’m impressed that you can handle the heat.
我对你能承受高温感到印象深刻。
I’ve lived in Virginia a long time.
我在弗吉尼亚州住了很长时间了。
I think for five years, I never turned on my air conditioner because I felt I should get used to it, and I did.
我想五年来我从来没有打开过空调，因为我觉得我应该习惯它，而且我做到了。
Now, when you take the trip as a whole — not just the walk, but the trip — you’re not packing very much, right?
现在，当你把整个旅行看成 —— 不仅仅是步行，而是旅行 —— 你并没有带太多行李，对吧？
That’s correct.
这是正确的。
What is it you wish you could carry but you can’t?
有什么是你希望可以携带但又不能携带的？
It just doesn’t work.
它就是行不通。
I would like a few more night outfits.
我想要多几套晚装。
COWEN: When you say night outfits, do you mean to dress up?
COWEN：当你说晚装时，你的意思是盛装打扮吗？
I usually have one go-out shirt.
我通常有一件外出衬衫。
I want to walk in the shirt.
我想穿着衬衫走路。
After a while, that gets a bit raggedy.
过了一段时间，就变得有点破烂了。
Whenever I’m traveling, I also do attend mass every Sunday, wherever I am.
每当我旅行时，无论身在何处，我每周日都会参加弥撒。
I famously wear only sandals.
众所周知，我只穿凉鞋。
Another pair of shoes would be nice, to feel less disrespectful when I go to mass.
如果我去参加弥撒时再穿一双鞋就好了，这样我就不会感到不尊重了。
Is there anything you bring a double of?
有什么东西可以带双倍的吗？
I bring a double pair of glasses.
我带了一副双层眼镜。
I’ve never needed them.
我从来不需要它们。
I bring lots of Tide Pods.
我带了很多潮汐豆荚。
Those are my secret weapons, Tide Pods.
这些是我的秘密武器，潮汐豆荚。
I bring backup computer cords.
我带了备用电脑线。
I bring backup glasses.
我带了备用眼镜。
I’m trying to think what else I have a double of.
我正在思考我还有什么双倍的。
I carry two spare batteries.
我携带两块备用电池。
I’ve never needed a second one, much less the first one, but I always like to know I won’t run out of power.
我从来不需要第二个，更不用说第一个了，但我总是想知道我不会耗尽电力。
Sometimes I bring spare chargers.
有时我会带备用充电器。
For books, you use Kindle?
看书，你用 Kindle 吗？
Or how do you do that?
或者你如何做到这一点？
I always have one physical book and then my Kindle.
我总是有一本实体书，然后是我的 Kindle。
I always keep one physical book because I just prefer reading physical books.
我总是保留一本实体书，因为我只是更喜欢阅读实体书。
I always bring my Kindle, but try to get by with only physical books.
我总是带着 Kindle，但尽量只看实体书。
I think, honestly, I never regret under-packing.
老实说，我认为我从不后悔打包不足。
I pack remarkably light.
我的行李非常轻。
To me, if I had one hack to people for traveling, what I would say is, when you get home and look at what you brought and see how much you didn’t use, you’ll find that you didn’t use a third of what you brought.
对我来说，如果我对人们旅行有一个窍门，我想说的是，当你回到家，看看你带来的东西，看看你没有使用多少，你会发现你没有使用你带来的三分之一。
You can buy things on the road, you know, if you run out of stuff, like I can buy that second shirt, and sometimes I have.
你可以在路上买东西，你知道，如果你没东西了，就像我可以买第二件衬衫，有时我有。
On what longs walks teach you
长距离步行能教会你什么
Now, I did an episode with Paul Salopek.
现在，我和保罗·萨洛佩克一起做了一集。
Do you know who he is?
你知道他是谁吗？
No.
不。
He’s walking around the world.
他正在环游世界。
Literally?
字面上地？
Literally.
字面上地。
In a — circle isn’t exactly the right word.
“在一个 — 圆圈中”这个词并不完全正确。
He’s had trouble with the war or with Russia.
他在战争或俄罗斯方面遇到了麻烦。
China, at first, was an issue.
起初，中国是一个问题。
This was during the pandemic some of the time.
这是在大流行期间的一段时间。
Are you ever tempted to do that?
你有没有想过这样做？
Yes.
是的。
The problem is, I’ve looked at paths.
问题是，我已经查看了路径。
I looked at walking across the US multiple times.
我多次想过步行穿越美国。
I don’t know how much you’re going to learn the third day in a wheat field.
我不知道在麦田里的第三天你会学到多少东西。
One day of wheat fields is good.
麦田一日游也不错。
Two more days?
还有两天？
The Gobi Desert’s the same.
戈壁滩也是一样。
What am I going to learn the 15th day in the Gobi Desert?
在戈壁滩的第15天我要学到什么？
This whole project started with this idea of walking around the world, literally.
整个项目都是从字面意义上的环游世界的想法开始的。
I started saying, “I’ll just cut out the middle parts, the boring parts, and focus on the cities,” because I like people.
我开始说，“我会删掉中间部分，无聊的部分，专注于城市，”因为我喜欢人。
I’m focused on culture.
我专注于文化。
I’m focused on how people operate.
我关注人们的运作方式。
I like people.
我喜欢人。
I like being around people.
我喜欢和人在一起。
The Woody Allen joke is, “I am at two with nature.” I get that.
伍迪·艾伦的笑话是：“我与自然的关系只有两岁。”我明白了。
I like small doses of it, but what are you going to learn from the forest on the fourth day?
我喜欢小剂量的，但是第四天你要从森林里学到什么？
I’m the same.
我也一样。
If I walk from here to Florida, that’s a lot of pine forest, man.
如果我从这里步行到佛罗里达，那里有很多松树林，伙计。
There’s not much to learn there.
那里没什么可学的。
I looked at walking across the US multiple times.
我多次想过步行穿越美国。
I don’t know how much you’re going to learn the third day in a wheat field.
我不知道在麦田里的第三天你会学到多少东西。
One day of wheat fields is good.
麦田一日游也不错。
Two more days?
还有两天？
The Gobi Desert’s the same.
戈壁滩也是一样。
What am I going to learn the 15th day in the Gobi Desert?
在戈壁沙漠的第 15 天我要学到什么？
This whole project started with this idea of walking around the world, literally.
整个项目都是从字面意义上的环游世界的想法开始的。
I started saying, “I’ll just cut out the middle parts, the boring parts, and focus on the cities,” because I like people.
我开始说，“我会删掉中间部分，无聊的部分，专注于城市，”因为我喜欢人。
I’m focused on culture.
我专注于文化。
I’m focused on how people operate.
我关注人们的运作方式。
I like people.
我喜欢人。
I like being around people.
我喜欢和人在一起。
The Woody Allen joke is, “I am at two with nature.” I get that.
伍迪·艾伦的笑话是：“我与自然的关系只有两岁。”我明白了。
I like small doses of it, but what are you going to learn from the forest on the fourth day?
我喜欢小剂量的，但是第四天你要从森林中学到什么？
What is it you think you learn least well traveling the way you do?
您认为您在旅行中学得最差的是什么？
It’s interesting.
这很有趣。
I used to be a macro-type trader.
我曾经是一名宏观型交易者。
I used to be very top-down.
我以前是非常自上而下的。
I think I, in some sense, have thrown too much of that away.
我想，从某种意义上说，我已经抛弃了太多的东西。
I’ve gone in too blind.
我太盲目了。
I could do a little bit more background reading in terms of the political situation.
我可以多读一点有关政治局势的背景知识。
One of the things I’ve learned from my project is, most people don’t talk about politics.
我从项目中学到的一件事是，大多数人不谈论政治。
It’s because I only talk about what other people want to talk about.
因为我只讲别人想说的。
No one talks about politics.
没有人谈论政治。
Being in Beijing and Shanghai — maybe it’s not the best example because people would say there’s a reason they don’t want to talk about it.
在北京和上海——也许这不是最好的例子，因为人们会说他们不想谈论它是有原因的。
I don’t think that’s it.
我认为不是这样的。
No, I agree.
不，我同意。
Most of the world.
世界上大部分地区。
Even Idaho.
甚至爱达荷州。
Yes, 98 percent of the people aren’t political and they don’t talk about politics.
是的，98%的人不关心政治，他们也不谈论政治。
I got beat up on social media when people were talking about, “Oh my God, Trump’s going to be elected.
当人们在社交媒体上谈论“天哪，特朗普要当选了”时，我遭到了殴打。
The world hates us.” No, they don’t.
这个世界讨厌我们。”不，他们没有。
When that person said that, I was actually in a bar in Kampala with a woman telling me how much she loved Trump.
当那个人这么说时，我实际上正在坎帕拉的一家酒吧里，一位女士告诉我她有多么爱特朗普。
That was a rare political conversation.
这是一次罕见的政治对话。
Most people don’t talk about politics.
大多数人不谈论政治。
In that sense, I could probably do more reading outside of the conversations about politics because I go to a lot of these countries, I don’t know what’s going on politically because people don’t talk about it.
从这个意义上说，我可能可以在政治对话之外阅读更多内容，因为我去了很多这样的国家，我不知道政治上发生了什么，因为人们不谈论它。
What other macro views of the world have you revised due to your walking, visiting, traveling?
由于你的步行、参观、旅行，你对世界的宏观看法还有哪些改变？
Obviously, particular views about any individual place, but on the whole, humanity.
显然，这是对任何个别地方的特殊看法，但总体而言，是对人性的看法。
The biggest change I would say is I’ve become religious, although that’s not entirely just the walking, but that’s —
我想说的最大的改变是我变得虔诚了，虽然这不完全只是走路，但那就是 ——
Do you think the walking has fed into it?
你认为步行已经影响了它吗？
Yes.
是的。
How has that operated?
这是如何运作的？
Part of it was utilitarian.
其中一部分是功利主义的。
This works for so many people, but also, it’s a little deeper than that, which is an understanding that people are a little bit more complicated than science leads you to belief, and life is a little more complicated.
这对很多人都有效，而且比这更深入一点，这是一种理解，即人比科学更复杂一点，引导你相信，生活也更复杂一点。
In that sense, there is something to what I would call common-sense folk wisdom.
从这个意义上说，我称之为常识性民间智慧。
That’s just more than something that needs to be explained away with science or eventually, we’ll move beyond.
这不仅仅是需要用科学来解释的事情，否则最终我们将超越它。
I do think there are very human qualities that are .
我确实认为这是非常人性化的品质。
.
。
.
。
I am not a relativist.
我不是相对主义者。
I might’ve been 30 years ago — belief in cultural relativism.
30 年前我可能就信仰文化相对主义。
I’m not a relativist.
我不是相对主义者。
I think there are some cultures that are just better than others.
我认为有些文化就是比其他文化更好。
COWEN: I agree with that.
考恩：我同意这一点。
Why can’t we say that?
为什么我们不能这么说？
Way back when, before I found out I was good at math, I started off with the intention of going into anthropology.
很久以前，在我发现自己擅长数学之前，我一开始就打算进入人类学领域。
Basically, as a freshman, I left it after three months because it was filled with this cultural relativism, which I just thought was absurd.
基本上，作为一名新生，三个月后我就离开了它，因为它充满了这种文化相对主义，我只是认为这是荒谬的。
Now, I feel more certain of that.
现在，我对此更加确定。
I would say the bigger thing I’ve been thinking about for the last two years is .
我想说的是，过去两年我一直在思考的更重要的事情是。
.
。
.
。
Six years ago or seven years, I would say, “What elites say doesn’t matter.
六年前或七年前，我会说：“精英们说什么并不重要。
Who cares what people are fighting about on Twitter?” Actually —
谁关心人们在推特上争论什么？”其实 ——
It does matter, I think.
我认为这确实很重要。
Elites, and I’ll put myself as an elite — I’m one — we build cultures.
精英，我会把自己定位为精英 ——“我是精英”—— 我们建设文化。
We build societies, so we matter immensely.
我们建设社会，因此我们非常重要。
Maybe I’ve gone a little bit too far now where I think all of culture is built by elites to almost a level of giving excuses to people who aren’t elites in terms of their behavior because that’s the culture they grow up in.
也许我现在有点太过分了，我认为所有的文化都是由精英建立的，几乎在某种程度上为非精英的人的行为提供借口，因为那是他们成长的文化。
I won’t go that far.
我不会走那么远。
I think there is free will and people have agency.
我认为人们有自由意志，也有代理权。
I think CCP is an extreme example of what takes place in almost every culture, which is, there is a small group of a guardian class — different definitions in different places — who effectively create culture.
我认为中共是几乎所有文化中都发生的一个极端例子，即有一小群守护阶级 ——“不同地方有不同的定义”——有效地创造了文化。
Most people are not political.
大多数人不关心政治。
The way they choose to live is based not on a law decision; it’s based on what culture gives them.
他们选择的生活方式不是基于法律决定；而是基于法律决定。这是基于文化赋予他们的。
Sure, conformity.
当然，顺从。
In that sense, I think what academics do, or what elites do, what politicians do is immensely important and shapes how societies are built and how they evolve.
从这个意义上说，我认为学者的所作所为、精英的所作所为、政治家的所作所为非常重要，它们决定着社会如何构建和发展。
Putting aside issues of financial security, how many people do you think should do what you’re doing?
抛开财务安全问题不谈，您认为有多少人应该做您正在做的事情？
Is it like, “Oh, there’re only a few of us in the world”?
是不是像“哦，世界上只有我们几个人”？
Or is it some kind of life arb opportunity that, say, 3 percent of people actually should be doing if they can?
或者说，这是某种生活套利机会，如果可以的话，3% 的人实际上应该这样做？
What’s interesting is, I’m probably going to take a six-month break from what I’m doing because I’ve leaned too far away from reading books.
有趣的是，我可能会暂停我正在做的事情六个月，因为我已经太远离读书了。
There’s book-learning, then there’s what I call stochastic experimental learning, which is what I’m doing.
有书本学习，还有我所说的随机实验学习，这就是我正在做的事情。
You need both.
你两者都需要。
I think if you only do what I’m doing, you’re going to miss out on a lot of the world.
我认为如果你只做我正在做的事情，你就会错过很多世界。
Why can’t you do both though?
为什么你不能两者兼得呢？
I once had a trip to Goa, and I mistimed the monsoon, and I could hardly go out at all.
我曾经去果阿旅行，但我错过了季风，我几乎无法出去。
I went out two or three hours a day.
我每天出去两三个小时。
That was crushingly sad.
那真是太悲伤了。
I read a lot.
我读了很多。
In fact, it was still a great trip.
事实上，这仍然是一次很棒的旅行。
I would have to change how I travel, which part of it is just me.
我必须改变我的旅行方式，其中的一部分只是我自己。
People are expecting content every 11 days based on walking, so if I sit around reading books .
人们每 11 天就会期待一次基于步行的内容，所以如果我坐下来读书。
.
。
.
。
You can write about that, too.
你也可以写一下。
You have a post on your recent reading.
您有一篇关于您最近阅读的文章。
I can, but I do think that you have to do a mixture of both, and I’ve leaned a little too far into the walking.
我可以，但我确实认为你必须将两者结合起来，而且我在步行方面有点太过了。
In terms of how many other people can do it, it’s logistically a hard lifestyle.
就有多少人能做到这一点而言，这在逻辑上是一种艰难的生活方式。
You have to be a certain personality.
你必须有一定的个性。
I do not mind waking up in a different bedroom every night.
我不介意每晚在不同的卧室醒来。
This might be just a quirk of my personality.
这可能只是我性格的一个怪癖。
I do not mind 16-hour flights.
我不介意16小时的飞行。
I look forward to them.
我期待他们。
I don’t fly first class; I fly in economy.
我不坐头等舱；我乘坐经济舱。
Thirteen hours is my limit.
十三个小时是我的极限。
Thirteen is fine.
十三就好了
Past that, it wears thin on me.
过了那一步，它对我来说就变得单薄了。
Yes, I know, but it’s the time to read.
是的，我知道，但现在是读书的时候了。
I go to the back.
我走到后面。
I know my airplanes, now.
我现在了解我的飞机了。
I know exactly where the stewardesses hang out, and I go back and I talk to people.
我确切地知道空姐们在哪里闲逛，然后我回去和人们交谈。
I sit in the back.
我坐在后面。
I actually don’t mind long flights.
其实我不介意长途飞行。
You have to have a personality that enjoys that.
你必须有一个喜欢这样做的个性。
I like talking to people.
我喜欢与人交谈。
What is it you learn from stewardesses?
你从空姐身上学到了什么？
Speaking of the Faroe Islands example, I landed at 3:00 in the morning and she got a friend to drive me to the hotel.
说到法罗群岛的例子，我凌晨 3:00 降落，她让一个朋友开车送我去酒店。
Small things like that.
诸如此类的小事。
In general, they’re just interesting people to talk about.
总的来说，他们只是值得谈论的有趣的人。
They tell you about where they grew up.
他们告诉你他们在哪里长大。
They tell you where to go.
他们告诉你去哪里。
I use the information probably in the way they wouldn’t think I use the information.
我可能以他们认为我不会的方式使用这些信息。
If they told me to go someplace, I may not go there because that sounds like it’s going to be crowded , and I don’t like crowds.
如果他们告诉我去某个地方，我可能不会去那里，因为听起来那里会很拥挤，而我不喜欢人群。
I just like to hear the life stories of people — how they got into the career they got into and what they want out of life, what’s their goal here.
我只是喜欢听人们的生活故事——他们如何进入他们所从事的职业，他们想要从生活中得到什么，他们在这里的目标是什么。
On the Faroe Islands
在法罗群岛
Why should more people visit the Faroe Islands?
为什么应该有更多的人访问法罗群岛？
I said I’m two with nature, but I give an exemption for Faroe.
我说过我与自然是两个人，但我对法罗群岛给予豁免。
It’s gorgeous.
太漂亮了。
It’s absolutely gorgeous.
这绝对是华丽的。
Physically, it has a sublime beauty.
从身体上来说，它具有崇高的美感。
I get people who get religious experiences out of nature.
我认识的人从大自然中获得宗教体验。
It never got old, the beauty.
它永远不会变老，美丽。
I also think it’s extraordinarily functional, and I like functionality.
我还认为它非常实用，而且我喜欢功能性。
Great seafood also.
海鲜也很棒。
It’s different.
这是不同的。
Have you been?
你去过吗？
Of course, I’ve been.
当然，我去过。
Oh, how many times have you been?
哦，你去过几次了？
COWEN: I’ve been to a lot of places.
考恩：我去过很多地方。
How long were you in Faroe for?
您在法罗待了多长时间？
I think five days.
我想五天。
I’m not sure.
我不知道。
Less than a week, but more than just a day or two.
不到一周，但不仅仅是一两天。
It was interesting.
这很有趣。
I was planning to be there for five days, and I canceled my next trip to stay there for two weeks —
本来打算在那里待五天，所以取消了下次旅行，打算在那里待两周 —
Yes, I can imagine that easily.
是的，我可以很容易地想象到这一点。
What I liked most about it was, I would just go to the bus depot and get on a bus and get off somewhere and then walk for four or five hours.
我最喜欢的是，我会去公交车站上车，然后在某个地方下车，然后步行四五个小时。
would make sure that I would get another bus back because of the timetables.
会确保我会因为时间表而乘坐另一辆巴士回来。
You can island-hop and just walk around.
您可以跳岛游，然后四处走走。
I like these incredible .
我喜欢这些令人难以置信的。
.
。
.
。
you can’t even call them towns, but maybe five homes in a corner somewhere with the world’s best view.
你甚至不能称它们为城镇，但也许在某个角落里有五栋房子，可以看到世界上最好的景色。
And the homes are nice.
而且房子都很好。
What I didn’t like about it — I’m terrified of heights.
我不喜欢的地方是 —— 我恐高。
I remember the first day I got there, I walked out of Tórshavn, across the island to the other side, over the mountain there.
我记得我到达那里的第一天，我走出托尔斯港，穿过岛屿到达另一边，翻过那里的山。
It was an eight-mile walk up the mountain and down.
上山下山需要步行八英里。
Part of that walk, there were some cliffs, and I was a little bit scared, but I got through it.
途中有一些悬崖，我有点害怕，但我还是挺过来了。
I’m like, “I’ll just take the bus back.
我想，“我就坐公共汽车回来。
That’s fine.” The bus was more terrifying than the walk because it would go down to pick up these kids, and they lived down —
那就好。”公共汽车比步行更可怕，因为它会下去接这些孩子，而他们就住在下面 -
I did this once.
我这样做过一次。
The road is a dirt road that’s maybe just a car length wide, and this bus is going around the corners.
这条路是一条土路，大概只有一辆车长宽，而这辆公共汽车正在拐角处行驶。
I had to move sides of the bus to not be on the side that was looking down the 50 .
我不得不移动公共汽车的两侧，以免位于俯视 50 号公路的一侧。
.
。
.
。
These kids were just looking down, smiling.
这些孩子只是低头微笑。
I was terrified.
我很害怕。
On Instanbul and India
关于伊斯坦布尔和印度
Is Istanbul the world’s most walkable city?
伊斯坦布尔是世界上最适合步行的城市吗？
I think it is one of them.
我认为这是其中之一。
I would put Tokyo up there.
我会把东京放在那儿。
Tokyo wins the walkability award.
东京荣获步行适宜性奖。
Istanbul is one of the most walkable cities.
伊斯坦布尔是最适合步行的城市之一。
If it wasn’t for the motor scooters, delivery guys .
如果没有摩托车，送货员。
.
。
.
。
It’s got the weather, it’s got the beauty, it’s got the diversity.
它有天气，有美丽，有多样性。
The biggest thing for walkability is what I call local distribution, meaning there’s always a shop somewhere.
对于步行来说，最重要的是我所说的本地分销，这意味着某个地方总有一家商店。
Yes.
是的。
I don’t know if your experience was this.
不知道你的经历是不是这样。
I just get over to the Asia side.
我刚刚到达亚洲一侧。
That to me is a much more interesting side.
对我来说，这是更有趣的一面。
Get out of the tourist parts.
离开旅游区。
It’s just a wonderful city.
这真是一座美妙的城市。
It has the history.
它有历史。
The thing I like about the history there is, it hasn’t frozen the city.
我喜欢那里的历史的一点是，它没有冻结这座城市。
On the European side is that famous wall.
欧洲一侧就是那座著名的城墙。
I forget the name of the wall that had been there, the wall that was eventually breached in 1453 or whatever, 1456.
我忘记了那堵墙的名字，那堵墙最终在 1453 年或 1456 年被攻破。
The northern defense wall.
北部防御墙。
It’s still there, remnants of it, and it’s just used as a car park.
它仍然在那里，是它的残余物，它只是用作停车场。
There’s this 13th-century wall that’s used as a car park, which I still think is pretty impressive.
这座 13 世纪的城墙被用作停车场，我仍然认为它令人印象深刻。
I like the way history is there but also not relegated to just a museum-like status.
我喜欢历史在那里的方式，但也不只是沦为博物馆般的地位。
On
开
Is anywhere in India truly, properly walkable?
印度有真正适合步行的地方吗？
I’ve not been since a kid.
我从小就没去过。
I canceled this last trip.
我取消了最后一次旅行。
I was going to go to Mumbai.
我本来打算去 孟买 的。
I don’t know, because I do a lot of Google Street Views before trips.
我不知道，因为我在旅行前做了很多谷歌街景。
Part of the reason I canceled my trip — I was going to go in January.
我取消旅行的部分原因是——我本来打算一月份去。
I had to cancel for a variety of reasons.
由于各种原因我不得不取消。
I’ll go sometime soon, but it looks like it’s going to be hard to walk.
我很快就会去，但看起来走路会很困难。
I was able to walk into Jakarta, I was able to walk Hanoi.
我能够走进雅加达，我能够走进河内。
I found both of them to be okay walkability.
我发现它们都适合步行。
I agree.
我同意。
How would you compare it to Jakarta?
您如何将其与雅加达进行比较？
Have you been to both?
你两个都去过吗？
I’ve been to both.
我两个都去过。
As many parts of India, Amritsar struck me as the most walkable part of India I visited.
和印度的许多地方一样，阿姆利则给我留下的印象是我访问过的印度最适合步行的地方。
The Sikhs are a bit like Mormons of India in terms of how they keep the city.
锡克教徒在维护城市方面有点像印度的摩门教徒。
It’s fairly well maintained.
它维护得相当好。
There’re pollution issues, there’re weather issues, and there’re big, you could call, sidewalk pothole issues, so it’s tough.
有污染问题，有天气问题，还有很大的，你可以称之为，人行道坑洼问题，所以这很困难。
The pothole issue — it’s awful in Jakarta.
坑洼问题——在雅加达真是太糟糕了。
It’s awful in Hanoi.
河内的情况太糟糕了。
You just have to look down a lot, or else you can break an ankle.
你必须经常低头看，否则你可能会摔断脚踝。
Right.
正确的。
Then there’s somewhere like Goa, which is fairly well maintained, but it’s just not well set up for walking.
还有像果阿这样的地方，维护得相当好，但不适合步行。
You need vehicles to get around.
您需要车辆来出行。
A lot of the developing world is not intended to be walked.
许多发展中国家并不适合步行。
Quite the contrary.
恰恰相反。
Again, I remember when I was in Hanoi, people become friends with me, and they’re like, “No, no, no, I’m going to take you on a scooter.
我再次记得当我在河内时，人们和我成为朋友，他们就像，“不，不，不，我要带你骑摩托车。
Why are you walking?” I was trying to explain what I was doing.
你为什么走路？我试图解释我在做什么。
They were like, “Why would you walk when you can go on a moped?” That’s probably the right attitude, too.
他们就像是，“当你可以骑轻便摩托车时，为什么还要走路呢？”这或许也是正确的态度。
On where not to go
关于不该去的地方
I have the view that people should pick out a place where they’re quite sure they don’t want to go and, at least subject to some safety constraint, then go to that place.
我认为人们应该选择一个他们非常确定自己不想去的地方，并且至少受到一些安全限制，然后去那个地方。
I agree with that.
我同意这一点。
That’s my whole strategy in many ways.
从很多方面来说，这就是我的整个策略。
Although it spectacularly failed with Phoenix.
尽管凤凰城的失败令人震惊。
I wanted to be a smart ass and prove that un-walkable Phoenix was, in fact, walkable.
我想成为一个聪明人，证明无法行走的凤凰城实际上是可以行走的。
It did not happen.
但它并没有发生。
It’s getting less walkable too, right?
步行也变得越来越困难，对吗？
Again, no one there walks, and no one should walk there.
再说一次，那里没有人走路，也不应该有人走路。
They have no intention to be walkable, and that’s okay.
他们无意步行，但这没关系。
At current margins, where is it you think you definitely don’t want to go?
在目前的利润率下，你认为你绝对不想去的地方是哪里？
Where do I definitely not want to go?
哪里是我绝对不想去的？
Again, put aside North Korea, in the middle of war zones.
再说一次，抛开处于战区中间的朝鲜不谈。
I’m burned out on Latin America.
我对拉丁美洲已经厌倦了。
I spent so much time there during my banking career.
在我的银行生涯中，我在那里度过了很多时间。
I think Peru, Lima, is quietly some of the best food in the world.
我认为秘鲁、利马是世界上最好的美食之一。
Sure, absolutely.
当然，绝对。
If I had to say where .
如果我必须说在哪里的话。
.
。
.
。
To me, one of the dirty secrets is, the food you get in a place is not that much better than you can get in the US.
对我来说，肮脏的秘密之一是，你在一个地方吃到的食物并不比你在美国吃到的好多少。
The average person does not eat that much.
一般人吃不了那么多。
The exceptions being France, Japan, Korea, and Peru.
法国、日本、韩国和秘鲁除外。
Italy, I think.
意大利，我想。
And Italy, yes.
还有意大利，是的。
Italy.
意大利。
I put up there as well.
我也放在那里。
In general, I got better Indonesian food in Netherlands than I did in Indonesia by far.
总的来说，我在荷兰吃到的印尼菜比在印度尼西亚吃的要好。
Vietnam I’d also put up there as a place where the food is exceptionally better, relative to what you get outside of Vietnam.
越南 我也认为那里的食物相对于越南以外的地方要好得多。
Latin America just doesn’t really interest me.
我对拉丁美洲并不感兴趣。
I don’t see a lot of variety in the cities.
我在城市里没有看到太多的变化。
I’m not particularly into .
我不是特别喜欢。
.
。
.
。
I keep on wanting to go.
我一直想去。
I’ve had this childhood fascination with Suriname.
我童年时就对苏里南很着迷。
In fact, last night I spent about an hour looking once again at flights to Suriname.
事实上，昨晚我花了大约一个小时再次查看飞往苏里南的航班。
I can’t pronounce the name of the capital .
我无法说出首都的名字。
I know.
我知道。
It’s funny, just this morning I was looking up Suriname and thinking of going.
有趣的是，就在今天早上，我正在查找苏里南并想去。
There are direct flights, actually, from Netherlands, but there’s no direct flight from JFK.
实际上，有从荷兰出发的直飞航班，但没有从肯尼迪机场出发的直飞航班。
You can go to Georgetown, but also, just doing lots of pin drops, looking at possible places to walk.
你可以去乔治城，但也可以做很多针掉落，寻找可以散步的地方。
It’s not that interesting.
这没那么有趣。
It’s spread out.
它分散开来。
It’s hot.
很热。
But the mix of groups is interesting.
但不同群体的组合很有趣。
The food is good when you buy it in the Netherlands.
在荷兰买的食物很好吃。
That’s the hope.
这就是希望。
This morning I booked my next trip.
今天早上我预订了下一次旅行。
Originally it was going to be Georgetown, and then going to, I can’t pronounce it, Para —
本来是乔治城，然后是，我发不出来，Para ——
Suriname.
苏里南。
Suriname.
苏里南。
For whatever reason, the Caribbean just doesn’t interest me.
不管出于什么原因，加勒比海就是我不感兴趣。
I don’t know what it is.
我不知道那是什么。
It just doesn’t seem like there’s a lot of cultural depth there.
那里似乎没有太多的文化深度。
Your listeners can yell at me who are Caribbean.
你的听众可以对我加勒比人大喊大叫。
I will go there.
我会去那里。
This is on my list.
这是我的清单上的。
They’re wealthy now.
他们现在很有钱了。
I think the interesting thing about Georgetown is they have the oil, so you have the economics side.
我认为乔治城的有趣之处在于他们有石油，所以你有经济方面。
They had 40 percent GDP growth in the prior year.
上一年他们的 GDP 增长了 40%。
You’ve got to imagine that changed the place.
你必须想象这改变了这个地方。
It’s incredible.
太不可思议了。
Just to look at that, for me, is interesting.
对我来说，仅仅看看这一点就很有趣。
Suriname has a spillover of the same thing, or they’re getting 20 percent growth?
苏里南也有同样的溢出效应，或者他们正在实现 20% 的增长？
Lower, but still impressive, yes.
是的，较低，但仍然令人印象深刻。
I think in Latin America, that would be interesting.
我认为在拉丁美洲，这会很有趣。
I don’t want to go to South Africa either.
我也不想去南非。
I have no interest in going to South Africa.
我没有兴趣去南非。
I went to Cape Town last summer.
去年夏天我去了开普敦。
I was surprised how much I liked it.
我很惊讶我有多喜欢它。
I’m afraid to go elsewhere in the country perhaps, but I would say consider it.
也许我害怕去这个国家的其他地方，但我想说考虑一下。
I walked quite a bit.
我走了相当远的距离。
I spent six months there as a child, so I don’t know.
我小时候在那里度过了六个月，所以我不知道。
That was a very different South Africa.
那是一个非常不同的南非。
Also, there were smaller towns where I quite seriously thought of just moving there for a month.
另外，还有一些较小的城镇，我非常认真地考虑搬到那里一个月。
In South Africa?
在南非？
Near Cape Town, to be clear, basically Cape Town.
需要明确的是，在开普敦附近，基本上是开普敦。
Small towns of — I don’t know — 40,000 people with fully walkable city squares, perfect weather, amazing food, and prices were maybe one-third of US prices with a much higher standard of living.
小镇有 —— 我不知道 —— 40,000人，拥有完全适合步行的城市广场、完美的天气、美味的食物，价格可能是美国价格的三分之一，但生活水平要高得多。
I’m trying to think where else I wouldn’t go.
我正在思考还有什么地方是我不会去的。
I’ll go to anywhere.
我会去任何地方。
I don’t have much interest in Scandinavia.
我对斯堪的纳维亚半岛没有太大兴趣。
I just don’t.
我只是不知道。
I’ve had good trips there.
我在那里度过了愉快的旅行。
Helsinki, for walking, is one of my favorite cities.
赫尔辛基是我最喜欢散步的城市之一。
Fair Island surprised me.
公平岛让我感到惊讶。
I didn’t expect to like Fair Island, so there you go.
我没想到会喜欢费尔岛，所以就这样吧。
In summertime, I don’t mind the heat, but my wife does, and they’re great —
夏天，我不介意热，但我妻子介意，而且他们很棒 —
Have you been to the Orkneys?
你去过奥克尼群岛吗？
Of course.
当然。
And?
和？
Incredible but small.
令人难以置信但很小。
It’s not that big a trip.
这并不是一次很大的旅行。
Because I was thinking of doing an Orkney-Shetland-Faroe trip.
因为我正在考虑去奥克尼群岛-设得兰群岛-法罗群岛旅行。
I’ve never been to Shetland, but Orkneys I’d recommend.
我从未去过设得兰群岛，但我推荐奥克尼群岛。
You can do that by boats — all three.
您可以乘船 ——三者皆可。
Oh, yes, that would be fun.
哦，是的，那会很有趣。
To get to the ancient sites in Orkneys, I guess you could do it by bus, but a car is useful.
要到达奥克尼群岛的古代遗址，我想你可以乘坐公共汽车，但汽车也很有用。
It feels quite Nordic, not Scottish, and that surprised me a bit.
感觉很北欧，而不是苏格兰，这让我有点惊讶。
I should have known.
我应该知道的。
Very Norwegian, right?
非常挪威，对吧？
That was my sense, yes.
是的，这就是我的感觉。
Iran, I want to go to, but I don’t have my hopes up.
伊朗，我想去，但我不抱希望。
Places I want to go that are not particularly easy is, basically, Russia.
我想去的地方不太方便，基本上就是俄罗斯。
I love Russian culture.
我喜欢俄罗斯文化。
Absolutely love Russian culture.
非常喜欢俄罗斯文化。
I’ve only been twice.
我只去过两次。
I was thinking about one of the trips I’m trying to book is Belarus, but again, it’s just hard for a lot of reasons.
我正在考虑我要预订的旅行之一是白俄罗斯，但同样，由于多种原因，这很难。
There are risks, and I don’t know if I particularly want to take those risks right now.
风险是存在的，我不知道我现在是否特别想冒这些风险。
I also know, to the questions of issues of political morality, I would say that, again, 98 percent of the people aren’t involved in politics.
我也知道，对于政治道德问题，我再说一遍，98%的人不参与政治。
You get to a place and they don’t care.
你到达一个地方，他们不在乎。
It’s unfair to condemn a place based on the elite’s behavior when 98 percent of people don’t care.
当 98% 的人不在乎时，根据精英的行为来谴责一个地方是不公平的。
Similarly, the opposite behavior is, I find a lot of foreigners are very forgiving of American policy because they understand that the citizens are not necessarily responsible for the behavior of the country.
同样，相反的行为是，我发现很多外国人对美国的政策非常宽容，因为他们明白公民不一定要对国家的行为负责。
Very popular in Vietnam, I found.
我发现在越南很受欢迎。
When I was in Vietnam, readers kept asking me to write about the political.
当我在越南时，读者不断要求我写一些有关政治的文章。
What about the war?
战争呢？
No one talks about it.
没有人谈论它。
Nobody.
没有人。
I remember talking to some people.
我记得和一些人交谈过。
I was in an outdoor bar right next to a memorial to a Christmas day bombing we did in, I think, whenever.
我当时在一家户外酒吧里，旁边就是圣诞节爆炸案的纪念馆，我想，无论什么时候。
We killed like 30 people, and there was this memorial, including having part of a US jet fighter.
我们杀了大约 30 个人，还有这个纪念馆，里面有一架美国喷气式战斗机的一部分。
No one cared.
没有人关心。
Why do you like El Paso so much?
你为什么这么喜欢埃尔帕索？
The optimism.
乐观。
It’s the American dream, and so I think the American dream is very much alive in the working-class Mexican American community, and you see that in El Paso.
这是美国梦，所以我认为美国梦在墨西哥裔美国工人阶级社区中非常活跃，你在埃尔帕索也能看到这一点。
When I was doing my project on addiction and poverty, El Paso was just fundamentally different.
当我做关于毒瘾和贫困的项目时，埃尔帕索有着根本的不同。
You don’t have the despair that you have in places.
你不会像某些地方那样感到绝望。
A low crime rate, too.
犯罪率也很低。
Yes.
是的。
Extraordinarily, in some senses, Mexico acts as the roach motel.
不同寻常的是，从某种意义上说，墨西哥就像蟑螂汽车旅馆。
If you’re going to do crime, go over to Juárez.
如果你要犯罪，就去华雷斯。
Consequently, there’s no crime in El Paso, but it’s one of the most optimistic cities in the United States.
因此，埃尔帕索没有犯罪，但它是美国最乐观的城市之一。
It has amazing food, by the way.
顺便说一下，它有很棒的食物。
I think it’s walkable.
我认为这是可以步行的。
I have walked a lot of it, but I can understand why some people might not see that.
我走了很多路，但我可以理解为什么有些人可能看不到这一点。
I find the colorful buildings, I find the fantastic weather — by the way, high desert is always my favorite weather.
我发现了色彩缤纷的建筑，我发现了美妙的天气 ——顺便说一句，高沙漠一直是我最喜欢的天气。
Great weather.
天气很好。
Again, the optimism.
再次，乐观。
When you look at working-class Mexican Americans versus working-class Whites or working-class Blacks in the US, statistically, all the things are the same except for issues of deviance, crime, addiction.
当你观察墨西哥裔美国人的工人阶级与美国白人工人阶级或黑人工人阶级时，从统计数据来看，除了越轨、犯罪和成瘾问题之外，所有事情都是一样的。
The Mexicans drink too much, but generally, it’s where someone can come and really feel .
墨西哥人喝得太多，但一般来说，这是人们可以真正感受到的地方。
.
。
.
。
I think a lot of it is the slope of the curve, not the height.
我认为很大程度上是曲线的斜率，而不是高度。
They can literally look across over to Juárez and see how their life has improved, and that just brings a great deal of optimism.
他们实际上可以眺望华雷斯城，看到他们的生活如何改善，这只会带来很大的乐观情绪。
On the good and bad of working on Wall Street
论在华尔街工作的好处和坏处
Looking back on your career as a whole, what were the best things about working on Wall Street?
回顾你的整个职业生涯，在华尔街工作最棒的事情是什么？
Smart people.
聪明人。
Smart people.
聪明人。
I’ve had particle physics, banking, and then I guess journalism — whatever you want to call it — writing now, punditry.
我学过粒子物理学、银行业，然后我猜是新闻学 —— 无论你怎么称呼它 —— 现在写作，专家学者。
I have found, in general, that the friends, the group of people that was the smartest, the people I enjoy talking to the most, and I still enjoy talking to most in terms of being able to have discussions that you can talk about anything and not feel like you’re going to offend somebody, at a level, were generally bankers.
总的来说，我发现朋友们，最聪明的一群人，我最喜欢与之交谈的人，而且我仍然喜欢与大多数人交谈，因为能够进行讨论，你可以谈论任何事情，并且在某种程度上不会觉得自己会冒犯某人，通常都是银行家。
Not all of them.
不是全部。
There is a hierarchy in banking, but in general, I think it was a great way to learn about the world at a very top-down approach.
银行业存在等级制度，但总的来说，我认为这是以自上而下的方式了解世界的好方法。
People make fun of the idea of becoming a specialist in X, but that was the great thing about banking.
人们嘲笑成为 X 领域专家的想法，但这正是银行业的伟大之处。
All of a sudden, you had to learn about oil for three months.
突然之间，你必须学习三个月的石油知识。
You became an expert in oil, and then three months later, you became an expert on palladium or whatever.
你成为了石油专家，三个月后，你成为了钯金或其他方面的专家。
I found that kind of intense, continual learning to be very enjoyable.
我发现这种激烈、持续的学习非常令人愉快。
What were the worst things about working there?
在那里工作最糟糕的事情是什么？
It was a very narrow view, again, which is why I’m doing what I’m doing now.
这又是一个非常狭隘的观点，这就是我现在所做的事情的原因。
It was very much the view from the Ramada.
这就是华美达酒店的景色。
It’s fly-in.
这是飞进来的。
One of the things I will say is that I stay away from certain neighborhoods in certain towns, which are generally the wealthy neighborhoods.
我要说的一件事是，我远离某些城镇的某些社区，这些社区通常是富裕的社区。
They’re all the same.
他们都是一样的。
They’re all variations on a theme.
它们都是同一个主题的变体。
The wealthy neighborhood in Sophia is like a little Fifth Avenue.
索菲亚的富人区就像一个小第五大道。
They’re just not interesting.
他们只是不有趣。
That’s what bankers do when they look at a place.
这就是银行家在考察一个地方时所做的事情。
My joke I used to say — because I did emerging markets fixed income; we bond trade in Russia, bond trade in Turkey — the entire investor base in the bond market of Turkey could fit into this restaurant, and they often do.
我以前常说的笑话“——”因为我投资的是新兴市场固定收益；我们在俄罗斯进行债券交易，在土耳其进行债券交易——土耳其债券市场的整个投资者群体都可以进入这家餐厅，而且他们经常这样做。
They’re all there every night, the same group of people.
他们每晚都在那里，同一群人。
It’s a very limiting perspective.
这是一个非常有限的观点。
On the role of pigeons and snapping turtles
关于鸽子和鳄龟的作用
What’s the special role that pigeons played in your career?
鸽子在您的职业生涯中扮演着什么特殊的角色？
Hi, John, for asking that question.
嗨，约翰，你问了这个问题。
A lot, actually.
实际上很多。
I became fascinated with pigeon keeping.
我开始对养鸽子着迷。
When I started this project of documenting addiction, it came basically through pigeons.
当我开始这个记录成瘾的项目时，它基本上是通过鸽子进行的。
During the financial crisis, I would go on these long walks in New York, these 15-mile walks, 16-mile walks, and I became fascinated with the pigeon keepers.
在金融危机期间，我会在纽约进行这些长途散步，这些15英里的步行，16英里的步行，我对鸽子饲养员着迷。
I would see these flocks of pigeons above the air, and then I started documenting and becoming friends with these pigeon keepers.
我会在空中看到这些鸽子群，然后我开始记录并与这些鸽子饲养员成为朋友。
It was an old Italian sport brought over to the Bronx and Brooklyn.
这是一项古老的意大利运动，被带到了布朗克斯和布鲁克林。
Now it’s mostly a Black and Puerto Rican sport.
现在它主要是黑人和波多黎各人的运动。
These guys will find these abandoned buildings and put coops up there and just keep pigeons.
这些人会找到这些废弃的建筑物，并在那里建鸡舍，只养鸽子。
I find them to be extraordinarily beautiful.
我发现它们非常美丽。
I think it’s an art form.
我认为这是一种艺术形式。
They call it a sport, but there’s really no goal to it.
他们称其为一项运动，但实际上没有目标。
You’re not racing.
你不是在赛车。
It’s animal husbandry.
这是畜牧业。
You just keep pretty pigeons, and then every day you fly them.
你只养漂亮的鸽子，然后每天放飞它们。
I found it to be a really wonderful hobby, and so, I started going all around New York, becoming part of this, documenting pigeon keepers.
我发现这是一个非常美妙的爱好，因此，我开始走遍纽约，成为其中的一部分，记录鸽子饲养员。
That brought me to Hunts Point, which started me on my addiction project.
这让我来到了 Hunts Point，在那里我开始了我的成瘾项目。
How about snapping turtles?
鳄龟怎么样？
I have two snapping turtles, Reginald and No Name, that are in my pond at home.
我家里的池塘里有两只鳄龟，雷金纳德和无名。
For the last eight years, when the summer comes, they come out, and I feed them every night.
在过去的八年里，当夏天到来时，它们就会出来，我每天晚上都给它们喂食。
I find it really fascinating that these two creatures, one of which is probably 40 years old, will live underneath the ice — my pond’s frozen right now — will be underneath the ice for six, seven months, and then they know when to come and where to come to get hot dogs at the same time every year, which I think is a pretty amazing instinctive skill.
我觉得很有趣的是，这两只生物，其中一只大概有 40 岁了，会生活在冰下 ——“我的池塘现在结冰了”—— 会在冰下待六七个月，然后它们每年都知道什么时候来、到哪里去买热狗，我认为这是一种非常惊人的本能技能。
What’s the best thing about writing Substack?
编写 Substack 最好的事情是什么？
Tell us the full name of your Substack and how to connect to it.
告诉我们您的子堆栈的全名以及如何连接到它。
Chris Arnade Walks the World.
克里斯·阿纳德走遍世界。
I would just Google “Chris Arnade Walks the World.” The freedom to basically do this.
我只会谷歌“克里斯·阿纳德走遍世界”。基本上可以自由地执行此操作。
I can’t believe people are .
我不敢相信人们是这样。
.
。
.
。
I’m being paid — not tons, but enough to literally walk around the world.
我的报酬 ——虽然不是很多，但足够环游世界了。
It’s the perfect job for me.
这对我来说是一份完美的工作。
I don’t think you could do that with .
我认为你无法做到这一点。
.
。
.
。
I forgot who it was, who wrote back in the ’60s or ’70s, someone related to the Grateful Dead, wrote about the concept that you could, if you just have 2,000 fans on anything —
我忘了是谁，在 60 年代或 70 年代写过，一个与 Grateful Dead 相关的人，写了这样一个概念：只要你在任何事情上有 2,000 名粉丝，你就可以 —
That’s right.
没错。
I forgot who it was who had that.
我忘记了是谁拥有的。
Is it Kevin Kelly?
是凯文·凯利吗？
I believe that’s who it was.
我相信那就是他。
No, Stewart Brand, I think.
不，斯图尔特·布兰德，我想。
Who comes up with the concept, all you need is 2,000 people.
谁提出这个概念，只需要2000人。
That’s right, or sometimes one.
是的，或者有时是这样。
And that’s pretty amazing.
这真是太神奇了。
There’re five billion people in the world.
世界上有五十亿人。
You don’t need that many people.
你不需要那么多人。
COWEN: But it’s hard to get, right?
COWEN：但是很难得到，对吧？
It is, but it’s not a high barrier.
确实如此，但这并不是一个很高的障碍。
It’s really a niche culture because I have a niche thing, and all you need is 2,000 people.
这确实是一种小众文化，因为我有一个小众的东西，而你所需要的只是 2000 人。
I really find the Substack model of allowing people to build a life based on just finding 2,000 people who appreciate what they do, or 1,000 — that’s a really liberating notion because in a big world, you can usually find 1,500 people if you have a unique enough interest.
我确实发现 Substack 模型允许人们通过找到 2,000 名或 1,000 名欣赏自己所做工作的人来构建生活——这是一个真正解放的概念，因为在一个大世界中，如果你有足够独特的兴趣，你通常可以找到 1,500 个人。
Do you think you’ll turn your Substack into a book or something else?
您认为您会将您的子堆栈变成一本书或其他东西吗？
Why?
为什么？
So, there’s no plan per se.
所以，本身没有计划。
No. Why would you?
不，你为什么要这么做？
I don’t really understand books in the sense of —
我对书的理解并不真正在于 ——
But you want to read more of them, right?
但您想阅读更多内容，对吗？
I’m glad people wrote books in the past, but I think in many cases, a weekly essay or biweekly essay, at least for me, is a perfect way to communicate.
我很高兴人们过去写书，但我认为在很多情况下，每周一次的论文或每两周一次的论文，至少对我来说，是一种完美的交流方式。
On AI-assisted travel
论人工智能辅助出行
Do you use AI at all when you travel?
你旅行时会使用人工智能吗？
I do not.
我不知道。
I’m starting to use it now as a .
我现在开始使用它作为。
.
。
.
。
I take that back.
我收回这句话。
It’s very good for travel.
非常适合旅行。
I started using it as a copy editor, but what do you use it for for traveling?
我开始使用它作为文字编辑器，但是你在旅行时用它做什么？
If I’m just arriving in a city, I will have guidebooks, but I’ll ask GPT or Claude, “What should I see in the city?” I’ll tell it what I’m interested in.
如果我刚到一个城市，我会有旅游指南，但我会问GPT或Claude，“我应该在城市里看到什么？”我会告诉它我感兴趣的事情。
It’s better than any guidebook.
它比任何指南都好。
Really?
真的吗？
It is.
这是。
When you land in a city — let’s say you were going to Xi’an — what would you do?
当你降落在一个城市时——比如你要去西安——你会做什么？
I would say I’m interested in Chinese history, art, culture, and food.
我想说我对中国历史、艺术、文化和美食感兴趣。
So, you’re a museum guy?
那么，你是博物馆人吗？
I’m a museum guy, and I’ve been to Xi’an.
我是一个博物馆人，我去过西安。
You go through museums?
你去博物馆吗？
That’s right.
这是正确的。
I do exactly the opposite.
我的做法恰恰相反。
The only museums I go to are military history museums because —
我唯一去的博物馆是军事历史博物馆，因为 -
Those are great, too.
这些也很棒。
— their history is a propaganda, which I love.
— 他们的历史是一种宣传，我喜欢这一点。
COWEN: The one in Tokyo is incredible.
COWEN：东京的那个真是令人难以置信。
They’re almost histories of histories.
它们几乎是历史中的历史。
They’re almost museums of museums at this point.
此时它们几乎是博物馆中的博物馆。
Yes.
是的。
You go through the museums?
你逛博物馆吗？
In China there are not many good ones to see, but in Xi’an, by far the best thing to see is in a museum.
在中国，好看的东西不多，但在西安，迄今为止最好看的东西是博物馆。
You cannot not go to the museum to see the terracotta warriors, right?
看兵马俑总不能不去博物馆吧？
What do you get out of a museum?
你从博物馆能得到什么？
I love the visual arts, so I see what’s in it.
我喜欢视觉艺术，所以我能看到其中的内容。
Okay, but seeing —
好吧，但是看到 ——
It’s elites building a narrative, if you’re interested in that.
如果你对此感兴趣的话，这是精英们在构建一个叙事。
What can you get out of that that you can’t get from a book?
你能从中得到什么是书本上无法得到的？
The color plates are not very good compared to the actual paintings.
与实际绘画相比，色板不太好。
To me, I’m asking the Walter Benjamin question.
对我来说，我在问沃尔特·本杰明的问题。
The age of mechanical reproduction.
机械复制时代。
Yes, the reproductions are terrible, but in the book, you don’t really see the process of defining the history in the narrative and how people respond to it.
是的，复制品很糟糕，但在书中，你并没有真正看到叙述中定义历史的过程以及人们如何回应它。
You’ve been to the Hagia Sophia.
你去过圣索菲亚大教堂。
Yes, sure.
是的，当然。
Did you get something out of it?
你从中得到什么了吗？
Of course.
当然。
What did you get out of it?
你从中得到了什么？
The visual splendor of it, which cannot be captured in a photograph.
它的视觉震撼力是照片无法捕捉到的。
Okay, so the aura.
好吧，气场就这样。
Right, aura.
对了，气场。
Okay, the aura.
好吧，气场。
Yes.
是的。
And that helped you understand it better?
这有助于您更好地理解它吗？
I don’t know if understand is the word.
我不知道这个词是否理解。
I enjoyed it.
我很享受。
I felt inspired.
我感到受到启发。
I shared it with other people who were there.
我与在场的其他人分享了它。
Okay.
好的。
In some senses I am more the .
从某种意义上说，我更像是。
.
。
.
。
I think you have a reputation of being something of a libertarian kind of materialist.
我认为您以自由意志唯物主义者而闻名。
Is that fair?
这公平吗？
I don’t know what that means.
我不知道这意味着什么。
I’m broadly a libertarian.
我基本上是一个自由主义者。
No, but you’re almost more romantic about it than I am here.
不，但你对此几乎比我在这里更浪漫。
Oh, much more.
哦，还有更多。
Of course.
当然。
Whereas I find the museums to be like, eh.
而我发现博物馆就像，呃。
The thing you can do with AI is you can take a photo of any picture in the museum, or any bird, any plant, any building —
你可以用人工智能做的事情是你可以拍摄博物馆里的任何照片，或者任何鸟类、任何植物、任何建筑 ——
And get the history.
并获取历史记录。
— and ask it all the questions you want.
— 然后问它所有你想问的问题。
That guidebooks cannot do, and that’s phenomenal.
这是旅游指南做不到的，这是惊人的。
Again, I love the .
再说一次，我喜欢。
.
。
.
。
And it’s free.
而且它是免费的。
At the margin, it’s free.
边际上，它是免费的。
You have to pay some subscription, but it’s not much.
你必须支付一些订阅费，但不多。
What do you think you’ll do next?
你认为接下来你会做什么？
I’m going to do this for another few years, and then, I don’t know.
我还要再做几年，然后，我不知道。
I didn’t know I was going to do this.
我不知道我会这么做。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Just how did it come about that you did this?
你到底是怎么做到这一点的？
What was the moment of realization or decision?
意识到或决定的时刻是什么？
I just found when life was stressful, I always walked.
我发现当生活有压力时，我总是走路。
When I’m at home, I walk.
当我在家时，我走路。
I have a standard 10-mile daily walk that I do, which is very different from my learning walk.
我每天都会步行 10 英里，这与我的学习步行有很大不同。
It’s therapeutic.
这是有治疗作用的。
When COVID happened, I looked at actuarial tables, and I said, “Oh, I’m a little bit overweight.
当新冠疫情发生时，我看了精算表，然后说：“哦，我有点超重了。
That’s not good.” So, I started walking 10 miles every day, and I really enjoyed it.
这可不好。”于是，我开始每天步行 10 英里，我真的很享受。
Then I started saying, “Well, I should .
然后我开始说：“好吧，我应该。”
.
。
.” When I was in Brooklyn, I walked the entire length of the New York subway system above ground.
”。当我在布鲁克林时，我走遍了纽约地上地铁系统的整个长度。
I’ve always been into walking, and I just realized, “Hey I can just .
我一直很喜欢走路，但我刚刚意识到，“嘿，我可以。
.
。
.” I think I was looking at a table that about 1.5 billion people live in massive cities that we really don’t know the names, these big sprawling Jakartas.
”。我想我看到的表格显示，大约有 15 亿人生活在我们不知道名字的大城市里，比如庞大的雅加达。
I’m like, “I would like to see that.”
我想，“我想看看。”
Yes, agreed.
是的，同意。
That’s the normal experience for most people, and so I just started.
这是大多数人的正常经历，所以我才刚刚开始。
I booked a trip to Jakarta and just started walking Jakarta.
我预订了去雅加达的旅行，然后就开始步行雅加达。
Listeners, I love Chris’s Substack.
听众们，我喜欢克里斯的子堆栈。
It’s Walking the World.
这是行走世界。
Chris’s book I can recommend as well.
我也可以推荐克里斯的书。
Chris, thank you very much for coming on the show.
克里斯，非常感谢你参加这个节目。
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Photo Credit: Bryan Jones
照片来源：布莱恩·琼斯