Chase Koch on Principles, Music, and Overcoming Entropy (Ep. 283)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I’m chatting with Chase Koch.
今天我正在和蔡斯·科赫聊天。
He is the lead guitarist of a band known as 2ŁØT.
他是 2ŁØT 乐队的主音吉他手。
He plays major roles in Koch Disruptive Technologies and the foundation Stand Together.
他在 Koch Disruptive Technologies 和 Stand Together 基金会中发挥着重要作用。
He and his father, Charles Koch, have a new book out, which I was happy to blurb.
他和他的父亲查尔斯·科赫出版了一本新书，我很高兴地向大家介绍了这本书。
It is called Becoming a Principle-Driven Leader: 41 Principles to Build an Enduring Business.
它被称为“成为原则驱动的领导者：建立持久企业的 41 条原则”。
Chase, welcome.
蔡斯，欢迎。
Thanks for having me on, Tyler.
谢谢你邀请我参加，泰勒。
It’s an honor.
这是一种荣幸。
Now, early on in the book, you tell a story of you being 10 and your father lecturing you about Hayek, Maslow, Schumpeter, Aristotle, and others.
现在，在本书的开头，你讲述了一个故事，你十岁的时候，你的父亲向你讲授哈耶克、马斯洛、熊彼特、亚里士多德和其他人。
You’ve absorbed a lot of those lectures, but what was it from those lectures that did not stick with you?
你已经吸收了很多这些讲座，但是那些讲座中有哪些内容让你印象深刻？
You either rejected it or you’ve still been ignoring it.
你要么拒绝它，要么一直忽视它。
Yes, I definitely rejected it when I was 10 years old, I think like most 10-year-olds would.
是的，我在 10 岁时就明确拒绝了它，我想就像大多数 10 岁的孩子一样。
It was more than a lecture, just to put people in the room with me and my father and my sister.
这不仅仅是一场讲座，只是为了让人们和我、我的父亲和我的妹妹一起在房间里。
These were Sunday philosophy lessons, sometimes economics lessons.
这些是周日的哲学课，有时是经济学课。
They were actually books on tape that he would play, whether it was Milton Friedman, or Hayek, or choose your philosopher.
它们实际上是他会播放的磁带书籍，无论是米尔顿·弗里德曼，还是哈耶克，或者选择你的哲学家。
Every 10 minutes, he would stop the tape and then quiz us with questions to see if we were paying attention.
每隔 10 分钟，他就会停下来，然后问我们一些问题，看看我们是否在集中注意力。
My sister Elizabeth, she knew the answer.
我的妹妹伊丽莎白，她知道答案。
She was right in there.
她就在那里。
I was usually either half asleep or not paying attention.
我通常要么半睡半醒，要么没有集中注意力。
It wasn’t really until later on in life, call it my late 20s, that the principles really hit me.
直到我二十多岁时，这些原则才真正触动了我。
All the things that he’d been trying to teach me hit me at a visceral level.
他一直试图教给我的所有事情都打动了我的内心。
It was from me experiencing them myself.
这是我自己经历过的。
I’ll give you just one example when these principles really came to life for me.
我只举一个例子来说明这些原则对我来说是怎样的。
I was running our fertilizer international business, and we were trying to expand all over the world.
我当时正在经营我们的化肥国际业务，我们正在努力向世界各地扩张。
Brazil was one of the most important import markets.
巴西是最重要的进口市场之一。
We had a large trading business, and I was trying to expand it.
我们有很大的贸易业务，我正在努力扩大它。
We were opening up a new terminal to bring nitrogen fertilizers in with large ships and break bulk 30,000 tons to get to farmers.
我们正在开辟一个新的码头，用大型船舶运送氮肥，并分批运送 30,000 吨给农民。
There was a new high-speed conveyor belt and a storage terminal and everything.
有一条新的高速传送带和一个存储终端等等。
The bureaucracy, the red tape, even the corruption that I, as a young business leader, felt, and what we thought would take under a year to build and get in market, took us over five.
官僚主义、繁文缛节，甚至我作为一名年轻的商业领袖所感受到的腐败，以及我们原以为需要不到一年的时间才能建立并进入市场的东西，我们花了五年多的时间。
Just feeling that, I was like, “Ah, this is what my father has been telling me since I was 10 years old.
只是感觉到这一点，我就想，“啊，这是我父亲从我 10 岁起就一直告诉我的。
We don’t want our country to go down this path.
我们不希望我们的国家走上这条路。
Protectionism, not thinking about things from a mutual benefit lens, barriers in business, holding people back.” All the things that he was teaching me came flooding to the front of my brain, and I was like, “I got it.” That was just one of many examples on why I became so passionate about the principles that my father was trying to teach me since I was a little kid.
保护主义，不从互惠互利的角度思考问题，商业壁垒阻碍了人们的发展。”他教给我的所有东西都涌入我的大脑，我就像是，“我明白了。”这只是为什么我对父亲从小就试图教我的原则如此热衷的众多例子之一。
There must be something from those books on tape that you absorbed the least.
这些磁带书中一定有一些东西是你吸收得最少的。
Do you wake up in the morning and say, “Ah, today, still, A does equal A.
你早上醒来时是否会说：“啊，今天，A 仍然等于 A。
Dad was right about Aristotle,” or did that just still like, “Ah, I don’t need this so much.
爸爸关于亚里士多德的看法是对的，”或者仍然是这样，“啊，我不太需要这个。
I know A equals A.”
我知道A等于A。”
It’s interesting, Tyler.
这很有趣，泰勒。
I would say, he looks at everything through the lens of principles.
我想说，他从原则的角度看待一切。
Ever since I was a kid, whether it’s how he raised Elizabeth and raised me, how he treats my mother, how he does business, the things he’s trying to change in our country with all of our efforts and Stand Together to help people improve their lives, those principles, I’m 100 percent aligned on with him.
从我还是个孩子的时候起，无论是他如何抚养伊丽莎白和我，他如何对待我的母亲，他如何做生意，他试图通过我们的所有努力改变我们国家的事情，以及站在一起帮助人们改善他们的生活，这些原则，我百分百同意他。
There’s not something I could sit here and tell you, “I’m just so polar opposite my father on that.”
我无法坐在这里告诉你，“我在这方面与我父亲截然相反。”
What I will tell you is how I express them is different.
我要告诉你的是我表达它们的方式是不同的。
He also taught me this, the principle of comparative advantage, which I think, of the 41 principles in the book, is maybe one of the most powerful.
他还教给了我这个，比较优势原则，我认为，在书中的 41 条原则中，它可能是最强大的原则之一。
As you know, the principle of comparative advantage is really focusing on where—you can look at it from an individual standpoint.
大家知道，比较优势原理实际上是关注在哪里——你可以从个人的角度来看。
You can look at it on a country’s comparative advantage and what they make and produce and at what cost.
你可以从一个国家的比较优势以及他们制造和生产的产品以及成本来看待它。
Look at it from a personal level: What my comparative advantage is, is what is my gift.
从个人层面来看：我的比较优势是什么，就是我的天赋是什么。
What is my superpower relative to everyone else on the team?
相对于团队中的其他人，我的超能力是什么？
If you look at it from a business standpoint, what I could be doing versus all my other alternatives, what I focus on.
如果你从商业的角度来看，与我所有其他选择相比，我可以做什么，我关注什么。
Also, whoever else is on the team trying to go build a business or achieve a vision, what I could be doing, relative to them and relative to their comparative advantages.
此外，无论团队中的其他人试图建立业务或实现愿景，相对于他们以及相对于他们的比较优势，我可以做什么。
My comparative advantage, compared to my father, is completely different.
我的比较优势和我父亲相比是完全不同的。
My father, his comparative advantage is abstract concepts, because he’d studied philosophy his entire life.
我父亲，他的比较优势是抽象概念，因为他一生都在研究哲学。
He studied the philosophers that you mentioned, Hayek, von Mises, Milton Friedman.
他研究了你提到的哲学家，哈耶克、冯·米塞斯、米尔顿·弗里德曼。
The list goes on and on, Joseph Schumpeter.
约瑟夫·熊彼特，这样的例子不胜枚举。
He also studied Lenin and Marx and applied the scientific method to understand the opposite of what he believed, to refine his own views in terms of how to build a business, how the world works.
他还研究了列宁和马克思，并运用科学方法来理解与他所信仰的相反的观点，以完善自己关于如何建立企业、世界如何运转的观点。
My comparative advantage is more around that I’ve discovered over time through lots of failures, and I talk about this in the book.
我的比较优势更多的是我随着时间的推移通过大量失败发现的，我在书中谈到了这一点。
My comparative advantage is much different.
我的比较优势有很大不同。
I think I got more my mom’s comparative advantage around working with people and understanding people and understanding interpersonal skills and intrapersonal skills.
我认为我在与人合作、理解他人、理解人际交往能力和自我认知能力方面更多地继承了我妈妈的比较优势。
What I’ve learned through a lot of failure is that focus on that, and don’t try to be something that you’re not.
我从很多失败中学到的是，要专注于此，不要试图成为你不是的人。
I think that’s where my father and I would diverge.
我想这就是我和父亲的分歧所在。
We have the same principles, but we express them much differently in business and with the social change efforts that we have.
我们有相同的原则，但我们在商业和社会变革努力中的表达方式却大不相同。
Other than your mom, dad, and sister, are there other relatives who influenced you earlier on?
除了你的妈妈、爸爸和姐姐之外，还有其他亲戚对你产生过较早的影响吗？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
I spent a lot of time with my Uncle David as well, who sadly passed in 2019.
我也花了很多时间和我的叔叔大卫在一起，他于 2019 年不幸去世了。
What he did for the company and just watching him in the boardroom and watching his leadership with my father to build a company that has grown 9,000-fold since the early ’60s.
他为公司所做的事情，就是在董事会里看着他，看着他和我父亲一起领导建立了一家自 60 年代初以来已经增长了 9,000 倍的公司。
Watching his leadership there, that had a profound effect on me.
看到他在那里的领导力，这对我产生了深远的影响。
Also, I’d say the stories of my grandfather.
另外，我还要讲讲我祖父的故事。
I never met my grandfather, but how my father has passed on what he learned from his father.
我从未见过我的祖父，但我的父亲如何传承他从父亲那里学到的东西。
A lot of this is in the book, but I’ll just share one little example with you.
书中有很多内容，但我只与您分享一个小例子。
When my father and his older brother, Fred, were three months old, Fred Koch, my grandfather, wrote a letter that said something like this.
当我父亲和他的哥哥弗雷德三个月大时，我的祖父弗雷德科赫写了一封信，上面写着这样的话。
It was the intent of when he passed away, they would open up this letter and read it.
目的是当他去世时，他们会打开这封信并阅读它。
This was dated 1936.
此日期为 1936 年。
Three months after my father was born.
我父亲出生三个月后。
It said something like this.
它说了这样的话。
“When I pass, you will inherit what seems to be a large sum of money.
“当我去世时，你将继承一笔似乎是一大笔钱的遗产。
You can do one of two things with it.
您可以用它做两件事之一。
You can either squander it and live an unhappy life, or you can use it for good and apply yourself and apply your gifts and feel the glorious feeling of accomplishment.
你可以浪费它，过上不快乐的生活，也可以用它来做善事，运用你的天赋，感受辉煌的成就感。
I know you won’t let me down.” That was kind of the message.
我知道你不会让我失望的。”这就是这样的信息。
A little bit of a guilt trip there for him, too.
他也有一点内疚。
Obviously, that had a profound effect on my father because that’s the way he’s lived his life.
显然，这对我父亲产生了深远的影响，因为这就是他的生活方式。
He’s two doors down from me right now, almost 91 years old and still grinding it out because he wants to add value.
他现在离我只有两个家的距离，快 91 岁了，但仍在努力奋斗，因为他想增加价值。
He’s still co-CEO of Koch.
他仍然是科赫公司的联合首席执行官。
People ask him all the time, “Why do you still do this?
人们总是问他：“你为什么还要这么做？
Why aren’t you laying on a beach somewhere?” He’s like, “What, do you want me to die?
你为什么不躺在某个地方的海滩上呢？”他说：“什么，你想让我死吗？
This is how I live.
这就是我的生活方式。
I want to feel that glorious feeling of accomplishment.” He’s passed that down to me.
我想要感受那种光荣的成就感。”他把这个传给了我。
I wish I had met my grandfather.
我希望我能见到我的祖父。
He passed before I was born.
他在我出生之前就去世了。
A lot of stories like that have really had a huge influence on me.
很多这样的故事确实对我产生了巨大的影响。
On tennis and basketball
关于网球和篮球
Now, you were a very good tennis player when you were young.
现在，你年轻时是一名非常优秀的网球运动员。
Obviously, you have a good physique for that.
显然，你有很好的体质。
Mentally, what do you think it is that made you so good?
从精神上来说，你认为是什么让你如此优秀？
I don’t have a good physique anymore.
我已经没有好的体质了。
I had shoulder surgery, so I’m not playing tennis anymore.
我接受了肩部手术，所以我不再打网球了。
I think my parents wanted both my sister and I to really apply ourselves.
我想我的父母希望我和妹妹都真正努力。
Whether it’s on the academic side or on the sports side, they said, “Really find your gift early in life.” I tried a lot of different sports, and I frankly sucked at most of them, but tennis was one of those things I had good eye-hand coordination.
无论是在学术方面还是在体育方面，他们说，“真正要在生命的早期发现你的天赋。”我尝试了很多不同的运动，坦率地说，我对其中大多数运动都很糟糕，但网球是我手眼协调能力良好的运动之一。
They were like, “That’s it.
他们说：“就是这样。
If you’re passionate about it, you need to really invest the time in it.” I did.
如果你对此充满热情，就需要真正投入时间。”我做到了。
I became nationally ranked when I was 12 years old.
我12岁时就进入了全国排名。
I was top 100 in the country.
我在全国排名前100名。
By the time I was 15, 16, and I had all these new freedoms in my life, and later curfew and all that, I had no interest in continuing to invest in tennis.
当我15岁、16岁的时候，我的生活有了所有这些新的自由，后来又实行了宵禁等等，我已经没有兴趣继续投资网球了。
I wanted to party with my friends.
我想和我的朋友们一起聚会。
That’s why I started throwing tennis matches.
这就是我开始投掷网球比赛的原因。
My mother came back and told my father, like, “This kid’s going off the rails.
我母亲回来后告诉我父亲，“这孩子出轨了。
What are we going to do with him?” He pulled me into his room and said, “You either give 100 percent on the tennis court, or you’re going to get a job.
我们拿他怎么办？”他把我拉进他的房间，说道：“你要么在网球场上百分百努力，要么就去找份工作。
You’re not going to be a country club bum.” I said, “Fine, get me a job.”
你不会成为乡村俱乐部的流浪汉。”我说：“好吧，给我找份工作吧。”
Overnight, I went from being, frankly, a tennis country club rich kid to shoveling cow shit and digging post holes 12 hours later because he sent me to a feed yard.
一夜之间，坦率地说，我从一个网球乡村俱乐部的富家子变成了12小时后铲牛粪和挖柱洞的人，因为他把我送到了饲料场。
I always tell people, even though I really despised what he did at the time, that might have saved my life.
我总是告诉人们，尽管我真的很鄙视他当时的所作所为，但这可能会救我的命。
Being in the position I was in with the resources that my family had, and going down the path of trying to feel what my grandfather said, is the glorious feeling of accomplishment, instead of going down the rich kid path that doesn’t apply themselves.
处于我所处的位置，拥有家人所拥有的资源，并沿着尝试感受祖父所说的道路走下去，这是一种光荣的成就感，而不是走一条不适合自己的富家子路。
If we think of the three major tennis players of the previous generation, there’s Rafa, Federer, Novak, which of the three do you feel closest to in terms of either principles or maybe just aesthetics?
如果我们想到上一代的三大网球运动员，拉法、费德勒、诺瓦克，您觉得无论是原则上还是美学上最接近这三人中的哪一个？
Which of those—
其中哪一个——
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
Wow.
哇。
—three resonates with you?
——三个引起你的共鸣？
What a question.
这是什么问题啊。
I think I have a little bit of recency bias, Tyler, because I just watched the documentary last week, Rafa.
我想我有一点新近偏见，泰勒，因为我上周刚刚看了纪录片《拉法》。
Have you seen that?
你见过吗？
No, but it’s on my list to watch.
不，但它在我的观看清单上。
I’m keen to see it.
我很想看到它。
Oh, you’ve got to watch it.
哦，你一定要看看。
I think it brought tears to my eyes probably four or five different times because I grew up watching him.
我想这可能让我热泪盈眶四五次，因为我是看着他长大的。
I like all of them for different reasons, but Rafa Nadal, just his grit and what he overcame.
我喜欢他们所有人都有不同的原因，但是拉法·纳达尔，只是他的勇气和他所克服的困难。
I’m a little bit of a stoic at heart.
我内心有点坚忍。
I read all the stoic philosophy.
我读了所有斯多葛哲学。
I’m a big fan of Ryan Holiday.
我是瑞安霍勒迪的忠实粉丝。
One of the books that had a huge influence on me was The Obstacle Is the Way.
对我影响巨大的一本书是《障碍就是道路》。
When you look at Rafa’s life and the injuries and the things that he had to fight through to become the best in the world, it’s just an incredible hero’s journey story.
当你看看拉法的一生、所受的伤病以及他为成为世界最佳而必须经历的事情时，你会发现这只是一个令人难以置信的英雄之旅故事。
Also, what a gentleman he was as well, and how he treats other people.
另外，他也是一位多么绅士的人，以及他对待他人的方式。
He’s not this guy that, because he’s number one in the world, he thinks he’s above everyone.
他不是这个人，因为他是世界第一，他认为自己凌驾于所有人之上。
The way he treated his girlfriend, his wife, the people around him, his coaches, other players, I think he’s a model for tennis.
他对待女友、妻子、周围的人、教练和其他球员的方式，我认为他是网球界的典范。
Now, to go back in time, 1992, the Barcelona Olympics, you have a chance to meet and spend some time with the NBA members of the Dream Team, right?
现在，时光倒流，1992年，巴塞罗那奥运会，你有机会与NBA梦之队成员见面并共度时光，对吧？
Yes, that’s right.
是的，没错。
Who is it you admired the most and why?
您最钦佩的人是谁，为什么？
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Boy, you’re taking me back here.
男孩，你要带我回到这里。
1992, I’ve never been on a trip like that.
1992年，我从来没有经历过这样的旅行。
I’ve been to two or three different Olympics.
我参加过两三届不同的奥运会。
Going when I was 14 years old, experiencing that three-week journey with my father, and we accidentally stayed at the same hotel as the ’92 Dream Team.
我14岁的时候去的，和父亲一起经历了那为期三周的旅程，我们不小心和92年梦之队住在同一家酒店。
I got to at least say hello to some of the players.
我至少得跟一些球员打个招呼。
I don’t know why my brain keeps going to Charles Barkley.
我不知道为什么我的大脑总是想到查尔斯·巴克利。
Because he’s so smart?
因为他太聪明了？
He puts things so well?
他把事情说得这么好？
He speaks so well?
他说话这么好？
His courage to say it like it is.
他有勇气说出这样的话。
He wasn’t the best basketball player of all of them, but I always admire him.
他不是所有人中最好的篮球运动员，但我一直很钦佩他。
They called him the round mound of rebound.
他们称他为“篮板球圆丘”。
I remember that.
我记得。
He hated that nickname.
他讨厌这个绰号。
I always liked him.
我一直很喜欢他。
I remember my father and I had an interaction with him on the elevator.
我记得我和父亲在电梯里和他有过一次互动。
My dad was like, “I’ve always admired you because you always tell it like it is.” He goes, “Well, you have to tell it like it is because the press is never going to let the truth get in the way of a good story.” Just seeing him now with Shaq and Kenny on their NBA show, there’s nothing better.
我父亲说：“我一直很钦佩你，因为你总是实话实说。”他说：“好吧，你必须实话实说，因为媒体永远不会让真相妨碍好故事。”现在只要看到他与沙克和肯尼一起参加 NBA 秀，没有什么比这更好的了。
That’s a great show, isn’t it?
这是一场很棒的表演，不是吗？
It’s incredible.
太不可思议了。
I hope they keep going.
我希望他们继续前进。
I’m not sure Shaq is always quite up to the discussion.
我不确定沙克是否总是能参与讨论。
Yes, but there’s nothing better than the Shaq-Charles arguments, and they start going at it.
是的，但没有什么比沙克和查尔斯的争论更好的了，他们开始争论。
That’s the best TV you can get, in my opinion.
在我看来，这是你能得到的最好的电视。
I’m a basketball guy, being from Kansas, being a basketball kid.
我是一名篮球运动员，来自堪萨斯州，是一名篮球孩子。
I love that stuff.
我喜欢那个东西。
Were you surprised by the Knicks winning the title this year?
您对尼克斯队今年夺冠感到惊讶吗？
I was.
我是。
I’m friends with R.
我和R是朋友。
C.
C.
Buford, who’s the GM of the San Antonio Spurs, because he’s from Wichita originally.
布福德是圣安东尼奥马刺队的总经理，因为他来自威奇托。
I’ve known him for decades.
我认识他几十年了。
Of course, I want to support my friend.
当然，我想支持我的朋友。
I like the Spurs.
我喜欢马刺队。
I thought they had more talent.
我认为他们更有才华。
I think they’re young.
我认为他们很年轻。
I think they have the culture.
我认为他们有文化。
I think they have the organization and the team.
我认为他们有组织和团队。
They have the values and principles.
他们有价值观和原则。
I’ve compared a lot of notes with what R.
我已经将很多笔记与 R 进行了比较。
C.
C.
did with Popovich over the years and how they won so many championships.
多年来与波波维奇的合作以及他们如何赢得如此多的冠军。
They’re a culture-first organization.
他们是一个文化第一的组织。
They don’t put up with prima donnas.
他们不能忍受表面上的女主角。
That’s exactly how we think about talent at Koch, and how we’ve built one of the largest private companies in the country is through a differentiated talent model.
这正是我们对科赫人才的看法，我们也是通过差异化的人才模式建立了美国最大的私营公司之一。
Even though they lost this year, I think they are set up so well because of the youth of the team, but also just their overall mindset and their principle and values-driven approach.
尽管他们今年输了，但我认为他们的设置如此之好，因为团队年轻，而且还因为他们的整体心态以及原则和价值观驱动的方法。
Do they need to jettison Fox?
他们需要抛弃福克斯吗？
He was, what, 3 for 15 in the final—
他在决赛中15投3中——
Oh, boy.
哦，男孩。
—game and made a lot of other mistakes.
——游戏并犯了很多其他错误。
Can they even trade him?
他们甚至可以交易他吗？
Yes.
是的。
I would say, is he willing to learn?
我就说他愿意学吗？
That’d be my question.
这就是我的问题。
Just like we talk about in the book, all of our failures.
就像我们在书中谈论的那样，我们所有的失败。
I’ve had plenty of failures.
我经历过很多次失败。
My father’s had plenty of failures in business.
我父亲在生意上经历过很多次失败。
Do you learn through values and principles to dig yourself out of the ditch, or do you just say, “Oh, I’m perfect, and I’m right, and there’s nothing I did that was wrong and it was someone else’s fault?” If that’s the case, yes, I would say they need to get rid of him.
你是通过价值观和原则来学习，让自己摆脱困境，还是只是说：“哦，我很完美，我是对的，我没有做错任何事，都是别人的错？”如果是这样的话，是的，我会说他们需要除掉他。
If he can learn from it, maybe he can be a great team player going forward.
如果他能从中吸取教训，也许他可以成为一名出色的团队合作者。
On the music industry
论音乐产业
In the world of music, are you happy with Spotify, or do you agree with the critics who think it sucked too much of the capital out of the sector?
在音乐世界中，您对 Spotify 感到满意吗？或者您是否同意批评者的观点，他们认为 Spotify 吸走了该行业太多的资金？
Oh, wow, that’s a good question.
哦，哇，这是个好问题。
With Spotify, I think the consumer captures all the value.
我认为消费者通过 Spotify 获得了所有价值。
I love it as a platform.
我喜欢它作为一个平台。
It knows me.
它认识我。
It knows what I like, what kind of music I like.
它知道我喜欢什么，喜欢什么样的音乐。
It feeds me.
它养活了我。
It’s very user-friendly, but the artist doesn’t capture any value.
它非常人性化，但艺术家没有捕捉到任何价值。
I play in a band.
我在乐队里演奏。
We’re only three or four years old, but the checks that we get for something like 5 million listens over time, I put myself in other bands’ shoes, that that is their living.
我们只有三、四岁，但随着时间的推移，我们收到了大约 500 万次收听的支票，我把自己放在其他乐队的立场上，那就是他们的生活。
It’s hard to reconcile the value creation relative to the value capture.
很难协调价值创造与价值获取之间的关系。
What it’s causing the industry to do and artists to do is figure out new methods of monetizing their talent and their value.
它促使整个行业和艺术家做的是找出将他们的才能和价值货币化的新方法。
They’ve got to tour.
他们必须去巡演。
They’ve got to sell merch.
他们必须出售商品。
They’ve got to associate themselves with brands.
他们必须将自己与品牌联系起来。
It’s just a totally different model disrupted by these DSPs, for sure.
当然，这只是被这些 DSP 颠覆的完全不同的模型。
As a boomer, I have the sense that from the years, say 1964 to 1973, music was very, very original.
作为婴儿潮一代，我有一种感觉，从 1964 年到 1973 年，音乐非常非常原创。
It changed every year.
每年都在变化。
Often, you can tell what individual year a piece of music came from when you hear it.
通常，当您听到一首音乐时，您可以辨别出它来自哪一年。
Now, I often hear pieces, and I don’t know if it came out yesterday or 20 years ago.
现在，我经常听到一些片段，不知道是昨天发表的，还是20年前发表的。
Do you disagree with that impression?
您不同意这种印象吗？
I don’t disagree with it.
我不同意。
I think that makes sense.
我认为这是有道理的。
I will say that given the technology that’s available, the perfect processing of a song that you listen to now and how every artist has that technology at their fingertips and they can record it at home now almost on a phone with high quality, I think that’s very different than listening to an old 1970s Led Zeppelin album, where you feel that you can tell that was in the studio and the grit of the song and the album.
我想说的是，考虑到现有的技术，对你现在听的歌曲的完美处理，以及每个艺术家如何触手可及的技术，他们现在几乎可以在家里用手机高质量地录制它，我认为这与听一张 1970 年代 Led Zeppelin 的旧专辑有很大不同，在这张专辑中你会觉得你可以看出这是在录音室里，以及歌曲和专辑的勇气。
I think that’s different.
我认为那是不同的。
I just think there’s been so much innovation in the space that there’s a good and a bad to it.
我只是认为这个领域有如此多的创新，有好有坏。
I think anyone can sound polished and perfect with the technology that we have now, but sometimes you like that old grit of a song from Pink Floyd, or Led Zeppelin, or Grateful Dead, or whatever the band is.
我认为任何人都可以利用我们现在拥有的技术来发出优美和完美的声音，但有时你会喜欢 Pink Floyd、Led Zeppelin、Grateful Dead 或其他乐队的老歌。
You were age 13, and you heard the Pink Floyd album, The Wall, and it just floored you, right?
你当时 13 岁，听过 Pink Floyd 的专辑《The Wall》，这让你震惊，对吧？
Is there anything in music now that you think can do the same for today’s 13-year-olds?
您认为现在音乐界有什么东西可以为今天的 13 岁孩子带来同样的效果吗？
Oh, boy, that’s a good question.
哦，孩子，这是个好问题。
It’s hard to put myself in a 13-year-old’s shoes.
很难设身处地为 13 岁的孩子着想。
I have three kids, and my oldest just turned 14.
我有三个孩子，我最大的刚刚满 14 岁。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
All I can speak to is my own experience in that I hope kids find the music that transforms them because music is a feeling.
我能说的只是我自己的经历，我希望孩子们找到能够改变他们的音乐，因为音乐是一种感觉。
What you’re talking about is my experience.
你说的都是我的经历。
I think I was 11 actually when my sister played Pink Floyd The Wall, and it was the David Gilmour guitar solo from “Comfortably Numb.”
我记得我姐姐演奏 Pink Floyd The Wall 时我才 11 岁，那是《Comfortable Numb》中 David Gilmour 的吉他独奏。
It hit me so viscerally that that was my hook into music and sunk its teeth into me, and I never let go.
它如此强烈地击中了我的内心，以至于我对音乐产生了兴趣，并深深地融入了我，我从未放手。
Music isn’t for everyone, but whether it’s art or reading or dancing, I’d encourage anyone to find that thing because while we all have our work and we all have what we’re doing, I think everyone needs that one thing to help them self-actualize and live the happiest life possible.
音乐并不适合每个人，但无论是艺术、阅读还是舞蹈，我都会鼓励任何人找到它，因为虽然我们都有自己的工作，都有我们正在做的事情，但我认为每个人都需要一件事来帮助他们自我实现并过上最幸福的生活。
For me, music has done that not only because I love it and just experiencing it and going to a live show, but what I’ve learned from going to so many concerts from so many different bands and even DJs over the years is the power of music to unify people.
对我来说，音乐做到了这一点，不仅因为我喜欢它、体验它、去看现场表演，而且多年来我从参加这么多不同乐队甚至 DJ 的音乐会中学到的是音乐团结人们的力量。
It’s the common language that we all have globally.
这是我们在全球范围内拥有的共同语言。
Frankly, that’s why I founded Stand Together Music by basically leveraging the power of music to unify people, and then our Stand Together platform that works on issues like poverty, criminal justice, mental health, transforming education.
坦率地说，这就是为什么我创立了 Stand Together Music，主要是利用音乐的力量来团结人们，然后我们的 Stand Together 平台致力于解决贫困、刑事司法、心理健康、教育转型等问题。
The power of music and artists that have really big followings that want to get engaged but don’t have a way to really drive change.
音乐和艺术家的力量拥有大量追随者，他们想要参与进来，但没有办法真正推动变革。
That’s where we come alongside them and help them push the easy button because we have that platform.
这就是我们与他们并肩作战并帮助他们按下简单按钮的地方，因为我们有这个平台。
I know that wasn’t your original question, but that’s what excites me the most about music and why music is a huge part of my life.
我知道这不是你最初的问题，但这就是音乐最让我兴奋的地方，也是为什么音乐是我生活的重要组成部分。
Not only, yes, I play in a band, but we can drive change with it, too.
是的，我不仅在乐队中演奏，而且我们也可以用它来推动变革。
It’s very exciting.
这非常令人兴奋。
“Money” was the song on that album that really grabbed me when I was about 12.
当我 12 岁的时候，专辑中的“Money”这首歌真正吸引了我。
I heard that I thought, “Wow, I’ve never heard anything like this before.” Now, this summer, you followed around Dave Matthews Band.
我听到后想：“哇，我以前从未听过这样的事情。”现在，今年夏天，您跟随戴夫·马修斯乐队 (Dave Matthews Band)。
What did you learn from them?
你从他们身上学到了什么？
Well, I didn’t really follow them around.
好吧，我并没有真正关注他们。
I would say it was the jam band community more broadly.
我想说的是更广泛的即兴乐队社区。
I loved Phish, Widespread Panic, String Cheese Incident.
我喜欢网络钓鱼、广泛恐慌、奶酪串事件。
There was some Dave Matthews in there as well.
那里还有一些戴夫·马修斯。
I think it’s the fact that you go to the shows with a jam band—Grateful Dead, they’re the ones that pioneered this, right?
我认为事实上你会和即兴乐队一起去看演出——Grateful Dead，他们是这方面的先驱，对吧？
You have no idea what you’re going to get.
你不知道你会得到什么。
The element of surprise at a live show.
现场表演中的惊喜元素。
I didn’t really always listen to them on the radio.
我并不总是在广播中听他们的节目。
I didn’t buy them for their albums.
我买他们不是为了他们的专辑。
It was more of the community aspect of it and the fact that everyone was there because they didn’t know what they were going to get, and these fabulous musicians were going to put on a great show.
这更多的是社区方面的问题，事实上，每个人都在那里，因为他们不知道自己会得到什么，而这些出色的音乐家将上演一场精彩的表演。
Then the friendships that come from that community, that I still have long-term friendships from back in my early ’20s that we all get together.
然后是来自那个社区的友谊，我在 20 岁出头时仍然拥有长期的友谊，我们都聚在一起。
Back to where I was saying before the power of music to unify people, that’s what the jam band community does.
回到我之前所说的音乐的力量可以团结人们，这就是即兴乐队社区所做的。
That’s why I still love it.
这就是为什么我仍然喜欢它。
N.W.A., are they good?
N.W.A.，他们好吗？
I like them.
我喜欢他们。
I had my phases.
我有我的阶段。
My first business, Tyler, was when I was 15 years old and one of my best friends to this day, Askia Ahmad, he was wiring up car stereos and building custom boom boxes and all that.
我的第一笔生意，Tyler，是在我 15 岁的时候，当时我最好的朋友之一是 Askia Ahmad，他负责连接汽车音响和制作定制音箱等等。
We basically built a business out of my parents’ garage because they had all the tools and materials and everything.
我们基本上是在我父母的车库里创办了一家企业，因为他们拥有所有的工具、材料和一切。
Like, “Let’s build a business out of here.
就像，“让我们在这里建立一个企业。
My parents hopefully will pay for the machinery, and then we can sell these boom boxes to our friends at high prices and capture a big margin.” Through that, I learned about the whole gangster rap.
我的父母希望能够支付机器的费用，然后我们就可以将这些音箱高价卖给我们的朋友，获得丰厚的利润。”通过那件事，我了解了整个黑帮说唱。
Your listeners may be surprised, but it started with me, Public Enemy, N.W.A., Eazy-E, of course—
你的听众可能会感到惊讶，但这当然是从我、公敌、N.W.A.、Eazy-E 开始的——
It’s so good.
太好了。
Dre.
德雷。
Snoop.
窥探。
Snoop.
窥探。
You know Snoop, right?
你认识史努比，对吧？
It’s so good, so good.
真是太好了，太好了。
Yes.
是的。
What’s Snoop like?
史努比是什么样的？
Snoop?
窥探？
Okay.
好的。
This goes back to what I was mentioning on the power of music to unify people.
这又回到了我刚才提到的音乐团结人们的力量。
So I’ve been with Stand Together.
所以我一直和“站在一起”在一起。
For the listeners that don’t know, it’ll give context to your question.
对于不知道的听众，它会为你的问题提供背景信息。
Stand Together is an organization that has really a community of like-minded leaders that all believe in one thing, in the power of human potential, and that every human has a gift.
Stand Together 是一个由志同道合的领导者组成的组织，他们都相信一件事，相信人类潜力的力量，并且每个人都有天赋。
We all know that there’s so many barriers in society that are holding people back, whether it’s barriers in education, barriers in regulation, so you can’t start a business, barriers in our criminal justice system, you name it.
我们都知道，社会上有很多障碍阻碍着人们，无论是教育方面的障碍，监管方面的障碍，让你无法创业，还是我们刑事司法系统中的障碍，等等。
What Stand Together does is we have basically a comprehensive strategy that addresses everything from education to policy to bottom-up empowerment in communities to drive real social change.
“站在一起”所做的是，我们基本上有一个全面的战略，解决从教育到政策到社区自下而上的赋权等各个方面，以推动真正的社会变革。
I’ve been a part of this for as long as I can remember.
从我记事起，我就参与其中。
My father’s been working on social change for 60 years.
我父亲 60 年来一直致力于社会变革。
My passion for music, as you can see from your last line of questioning, with Stand Together and that whole community, we never tapped into culture.
我对音乐的热情，正如你从最后一行提问中看到的那样，与 Stand Together 和整个社区一起，我们从未涉足文化。
When I say culture and what the next generation pays attention to—sports, music, YouTube, entertainment, creators, media.
当我谈到文化和下一代关注的事物时——体育、音乐、YouTube、娱乐、创作者、媒体。
During COVID, I had this idea that we’ve never tapped into music to drive social change.
在新冠疫情期间，我有一个想法：我们从未利用音乐来推动社会变革。
Now is the time.
现在是时候了。
Why?
为什么？
Because artists aren’t on tour.
因为艺术家不参加巡演。
They want to help.
他们想提供帮助。
Everyone’s going through this terrible pandemic.
每个人都在经历这场可怕的流行病。
How can we leverage the power of music to help people?
我们如何利用音乐的力量来帮助人们？
I founded this concept, Stand Together, Jam Together, where we got on Zoom and we got the whole Stand Together community all piling in.
我创立了这个概念，Stand Together，Jam Together，我们通过 Zoom 获得了整个 Stand Together 社区的支持。
Everyone was in their homes, they couldn’t do anything.
大家都呆在家里，什么也做不了。
I got some of my friends that were artists to come on.
我邀请了一些艺术家朋友来参加。
It was Matt Sorum from Guns N’ Roses, Michael Kang from String Cheese Incident.
他们分别是《枪与玫瑰》中的马特·索鲁姆和《奶酪串事件》中的迈克尔·康。
We had some of the Blues Traveler guys.
我们有一些布鲁斯旅行者。
Then we had a few experiments.
然后我们做了一些实验。
Then the third show, I had a friend, Pastor Omar Jahwar, that was very close with Snoop.
然后第三场演出，我有一个朋友，奥马尔·贾瓦尔牧师，他和史努比关系非常密切。
Pastor Omar, we had worked with him on trying to disrupt gang violence through a group called Urban Specialists based in Dallas, Texas.
奥马尔牧师，我们曾与他合作，试图通过一个位于德克萨斯州达拉斯市的名为“城市专家”的组织来制止帮派暴力。
He got Snoop on.
他让史努比上场了。
I knew Snoop was big on criminal justice reform.
我知道史努比热衷于刑事司法改革。
This was right after all the George Floyd stuff happened.
这是在乔治·弗洛伊德事件发生之后。
It was really a moment that people wanted to air things out and talk about the injustices of our criminal justice system.
这确实是一个人们想要公开讨论我们刑事司法系统的不公正现象的时刻。
I had my father on the show interview Snoop Dogg on basically everything, the impact of the war on drugs and basically the criminal justice system, and how our approach is lock them up and throw away the key, don’t give people second chances.
我让我父亲在节目中采访史努比狗狗，内容涉及几乎所有事情，毒品战争的影响和刑事司法系统，以及我们的方法是如何将他们锁起来并扔掉钥匙，不给人们第二次机会。
That was really how Stand Together Music was born, is through Stand Together, Jam Together, an online Zoom platform.
这就是 Stand Together 音乐的诞生方式，是通过 Stand Together、Jam Together（一个在线 Zoom 平台）诞生的。
All of a sudden, we realized, “Wow, we have something that artists want.
突然，我们意识到，“哇，我们有艺术家想要的东西。
They want the ability to drive social change and be able to push the easy button.” For Snoop, it was criminal justice.
他们希望能够推动社会变革并能够按下简单的按钮。”对于史努比来说，这就是刑事司法。
For Matt Sorum, it was addiction with The Phoenix and what we’re doing there.
对于马特·索勒姆来说，这是对凤凰城和我们在那里所做的事情的沉迷。
We’ve created a movement called One Million Strong, where we’ve had more than a million people that have transformed their lives with The Phoenix.
我们发起了一项名为“百万强者”的运动，已有超过一百万人通过凤凰城改变了他们的生活。
Anyway, I could go on.
无论如何，我可以继续下去。
I’m very passionate about this.
我对此非常热衷。
It’s very exciting what we started with folks like Snoop and where it’s headed now.
我们与 Snoop 这样的人一起开始的事情以及现在的发展方向非常令人兴奋。
We have meaningful movements, great partners like Live Nation, AEG.
我们有有意义的运动，还有 Live Nation、AEG 等伟大的合作伙伴。
We’re at all the festivals, Coachella, Stagecoach, the Breakaway festivals, where we’re getting to more people at scale through music with these ideas on how we help people.
我们参加了所有音乐节，包括科切拉音乐节、Stagecoach 音乐节、Breakaway 音乐节，通过音乐向更多的人传达我们如何帮助人们的想法。
For your own group, 2ŁØT, if I look on Spotify, the song “Come Together” is much more popular than the next most popular song.
对于你们自己的乐队 2ŁØT，如果我在 Spotify 上查看，歌曲“Come Together”比第二受欢迎的歌曲更受欢迎。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
Is it your best song?
这是你最好听的歌吗？
If you asked the five bandmates, we’d all have a different answer to that.
如果你问五位乐队成员，我们都会有不同的答案。
I loved that one.
我喜欢那个。
I helped co-produce that one, which was very exciting.
我帮助联合制作了那一部，这非常令人兴奋。
It’s one of those, it’s hard to articulate.
这是其中之一，很难说清楚。
We have no idea when we put a song out, what’s going to hit and what’s not.
我们不知道什么时候推出一首歌，什么会流行，什么不会。
I just think it’s in that electronic jam hybrid vibe that gets people dancing, but also has instrumentation to it.
我只是认为电子即兴混合氛围让人们跳舞，但也有乐器演奏。
It’s got a little funk to it as well.
它也有一点恐惧。
It’s really a cross-genre one.
这确实是一种跨类型的作品。
The other one, I would say, that it ties to the principles and ties to the book is the song “Entropy.” How do I say it?
我想说，另一首与原则和本书相关的歌曲是“Entropy”。我该怎么说呢？
It’s album title song of our very first record that we put out two years ago, and 2ŁØT, you mentioned the band’s name.
这是我们两年前推出的第一张唱片的专辑主打歌，2ŁØT，你提到了乐队的名字。
2 L-O-T is short for the second law of thermodynamics, which is the law of entropy.
2 L-O-T 是热力学第二定律的缩写，即熵定律。
We put the band together because the band members were all going through something.
我们组建乐队是因为乐队成员都在经历一些事情。
We were all overcoming our own entropy.
我们都在克服自己的熵。
Our lead singer’s father had just passed away a few months before.
我们主唱的父亲几个月前刚刚去世。
Our drummer’s father, who I mentioned a minute ago, who is the founder of Urban Specialists, Omar II, we call him Two, his father passed away from COVID in his late ’40s.
我们鼓手的父亲，我刚才提到过，他是城市专家奥马尔二世的创始人，我们称他为二号，他的父亲在 40 多岁时因新冠去世。
He was a close friend of mine.
他是我的好朋友。
Two’s father passed away, and I had just gone through a divorce.
Two的父亲去世了，而我刚刚离婚。
We called it 2ŁØT because we were overcoming entropy in our own lives.
我们称之为 2ŁØT，因为我们正在克服自己生活中的熵。
We said, “Can we build a band that has excellent music and is hybrid, soundscaping from EDM and jam band and all the influences from the band.
我们说，“我们能否组建一支拥有出色音乐、融合 EDM 和即兴乐队的音景以及乐队所有影响的乐队。
Then help other people overcome entropy in their own lives through the stories of a song like ‘Entropy’ that’s on our first record?” Also, when we have the stage, we can showcase groups like The Phoenix with the platform that we have and help drive awareness to organizations like that.
然后通过像我们第一张唱片中的《Entropy》这样的歌曲的故事来帮助其他人克服自己生活中的熵？”此外，当我们拥有舞台时，我们可以通过我们拥有的平台展示像凤凰城这样的团体，并帮助提高对此类组织的认识。
It’s been a really fun project with those guys.
和这些人一起这是一个非常有趣的项目。
Some of your song titles, like “Masquerade” or “I Hurt Myself Again,” they seem to reflect some inner sense of vulnerability that to me comes through in the music as well.
你的一些歌名，比如“Masquerade”或“I Hurt Myself Again”，它们似乎反映了一些内心的脆弱感，对我来说，这种脆弱感也在音乐中体现出来。
That’s quite interesting.
这很有趣。
Oh, thank you.
哦，谢谢。
Yes.
是的。
Thank you, Tyler.
谢谢你，泰勒。
Thank you.
谢谢。
The music’s only good if you’re really speaking from the heart on it.
只有当你真正发自内心地表达音乐时，音乐才是好的。
The listeners get it.
听众明白了。
They know when you’re faking it, or you’re just trying to copy something else.
他们知道你什么时候在假装，或者你只是想复制其他东西。
We’re just trying to make the most authentic stuff we can.
我们只是尽力制作最真实的东西。
Which musical genre do you feel, if you had to say, is the most either classical liberal or libertarian or in accord with your principles?
如果非要说的话，你觉得哪种音乐流派是最古典自由主义或自由主义的，或者最符合你的原则的？
Some people say Country and Western.
有人说乡村和西部。
Do you have a view?
你有什么看法吗？
Can you even generalize in that way?
你能这样概括吗？
Oh, that’s such an interesting question.
哦，这是一个很有趣的问题。
I don’t think it’s one genre.
我不认为这是一种类型。
Again, 2ŁØT and the guys that we’ve pulled together, we all have different backgrounds.
再说一次，2ŁØT 和我们聚集在一起的人，我们都有不同的背景。
Two is from funk, pop.
两个来自放克、流行音乐。
He grew up playing drums in the church.
他从小在教堂打鼓长大。
He was Chance the Rapper’s drummer for a bit when he was 18 years old, so he’s got rap influence.
18岁时，他曾担任过Chance the Rapper的鼓手，因此在说唱方面颇有影响力。
Our bassist has influence from funk and R&B.
我们的贝斯手受到放克和 R&B 的影响。
Our lead singer, the same.
我们的主唱也是这样。
He can play any genre.
他可以演奏任何流派。
Our pianist, synthesizer player, Sage, has jazz background.
我们的钢琴家、合成器演奏家 Sage 拥有爵士乐背景。
I come from the jam band community.
我来自即兴乐队社区。
Literally, almost every genre is represented.
从字面上看，几乎所有流派都有代表。
I think the magic is where it all meets.
我认为神奇之处就在于这一切的交汇。
On MrBeast
关于野兽先生
That’s great.
太好了。
What is MrBeast like, and what are his principles?
MrBeast 是什么样的人，他的原则是什么？
That’s a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
Just to give your audience context, back to our approach with Stand Together and really trying to help people drive change by really tapping into culture, there’s no bigger culture carrier or influencer than MrBeast.
只是为了向观众提供背景信息，回到我们“站在一起”的方法，并真正尝试通过真正利用文化来帮助人们推动变革，没有比 MrBeast 更大的文化载体或影响力了。
He’s the number one YouTuber in the world.
他是世界上排名第一的 YouTuber。
I think he just hit half a billion subscribers.
我认为他的订阅者数量刚刚突破 5 亿。
That was on YouTube, but if you look at it across everything, he’s more than a billion now.
那是在 YouTube 上，但如果你从所有方面来看，他现在已经超过 10 亿了。
It’s hard to even wrap your head around.
甚至连你的头都很难转过来。
The reason that I developed a relationship with Jimmy is because of our values alignment.
我与吉米建立关系的原因是我们的价值观一致。
One of the principles that we talk about in the book, Tyler, is preferred partnerships.
泰勒，我们在书中讨论的原则之一是优先合作伙伴关系。
We believe that a preferred partnership, three things have to be present, for a long-term mutually beneficial partnership, this applies to everything in life, whether it’s your spouse, whether it’s a supplier, a customer, a social change partner, this applies to everyone and everything.
我们相信，首选的合作伙伴关系，必须具备三件事，对于长期互惠互利的合作伙伴关系，这适用于生活中的一切，无论是你的配偶，无论是供应商、客户、社会变革伙伴，这适用于每个人、每件事。
You have to have an aligned vision with where you’re going with that partnership, a clear North Star.
您必须对合作伙伴关系的发展方向有一个一致的愿景，一个明确的北极星。
Number two, you got to have aligned values.
第二，你必须有一致的价值观。
How you capture opportunities, how you solve problems, can you work together, can you engage in a challenge process to get to a better answer.
你们如何抓住机会，如何解决问题，你们能否一起工作，你们能否参与挑战过程以获得更好的答案。
Humility, respect, integrity, all these principles, that’s number two.
谦逊、尊重、正直，所有这些原则，这是第二位的。
Number three is complementary capabilities.
第三是能力互补。
Both parties bring something very unique to the table and different to the table because when that happens, you have real synergy.
双方都带来了一些非常独特和不同的东西，因为当这种情况发生时，你就会产生真正的协同作用。
That’s what makes it a sticky partnership and long term.
这就是它成为粘性和长期合作伙伴关系的原因。
With that context, that is what our partnership with Jimmy Donaldson and his team has been.
在这种背景下，这就是我们与吉米·唐纳森及其团队的合作关系。
We started by experimenting on some videos because his whole thing is making kindness go viral.
我们首先尝试了一些视频，因为他的整个事情就是让善良像病毒一样传播。
That’s where he started with basically helping other people and demonstrating to his followers that it’s cool to go out and help people that are in need.
这就是他开始帮助其他人并向他的追随者证明走出去帮助有需要的人是很酷的事情。
You can do that in a million different ways.
你可以用一百万种不同的方式来做到这一点。
That’s the spirit of Stand Together as well, is that all we’re trying to do is help people remove barriers in their lives.
这也是“站在一起”的精神，我们所做的就是帮助人们消除生活中的障碍。
There’s so many different barriers across all of our institutions.
我们所有的机构都存在许多不同的障碍。
A partnership with Jimmy, he sees what we have with the Stand Together platform.
通过与吉米的合作，他看到了我们在 Stand Together 平台上所拥有的东西。
We see what he has.
我们看到他有什么。
We’re aligned on vision, aligned on values.
我们在愿景、价值观上保持一致。
When you combine those two platforms with messaging and helping kids understand these principles, we think we can really drive some meaningful change.
当您将这两个平台与消息传递结合起来并帮助孩子们理解这些原则时，我们认为我们真的可以推动一些有意义的改变。
He’s a great human.
他是一个伟大的人。
I was with him two weekends ago while he was filming the third Beast Games for Amazon, just to see what he does and how he does it is really remarkable.
两个周末前，当他为亚马逊拍摄第三部《野兽大赛》时，我和他在一起，只是为了看看他做了什么以及他是如何做的，这真的很了不起。
On the evolution of Koch Industries
科赫工业的发展历程
Some basic questions about Koch Industries and also Koch Disruptive Technologies.
有关科赫工业和科赫颠覆性技术的一些基本问题。
At this point, roughly what percentage of the business is still energy-related?
目前，大约有多少比例的业务仍与能源相关？
I’m glad you asked that question because it’s a misperception.
我很高兴你问这个问题，因为这是一个误解。
I think part of that is because Koch is private.
我认为部分原因是科赫是私人的。
We’ve always been private, and we plan to stay private.
我们一直都是保密的，并且我们计划保持保密。
Koch is not an old industrial company anymore.
科赫不再是一家老牌工业公司了。
We’re a tech company.
我们是一家科技公司。
We’ve invested, over the last, I would say, close to 10 years, $50 billion in tech.
我想说，在过去近 10 年里，我们在科技领域投资了 500 亿美元。
That’s through companies like Infor, which is ERP software that we acquired over time that brought on more than 30,000 software engineers to help the rest of Koch really think about technology through a different lens.
这是通过像 Infor 这样的公司实现的，Infor 是我们随着时间的推移收购的 ERP 软件，它聘请了 30,000 多名软件工程师来帮助 Koch 的其他人真正从不同的角度思考技术。
Molex was also a game-changer for us.
Molex 也改变了我们的游戏规则。
Molex makes connectors, whether it’s your iPhone, medical devices, what lights up this room, data centers.
Molex 生产连接器，无论是 iPhone、医疗设备、房间照明设备还是数据中心。
I think that was 2013 that we acquired Molex.
我想那是 2013 年我们收购了 Molex。
That was basically getting us into this IoT world where everything was starting to be connected.
这基本上让我们进入了万物互联的物联网世界。
You could create so much more value if you could get data off machines, and products, and plants, and processes.
如果您能够从机器、产品、工厂和流程中获取数据，您就可以创造更多价值。
When we acquired that, it transformed our knowledge around what you could do with data, but you need the hardware to make that work too.
当我们获得它时，它改变了我们对数据可以做什么的知识，但你也需要硬件来实现这一点。
The first thing I would say is that Koch’s a tech company now.
我要说的第一件事是科赫现在是一家科技公司。
For those, even old industrial companies that aren’t transforming themselves with technology, they’re going to be dinosaurs really quick.
对于那些不通过技术进行转型的老工业公司来说，他们很快就会变成恐龙。
That’s the principle of creative destruction from Joseph Schumpeter.
这就是约瑟夫·熊彼特的创造性破坏原则。
We believe it.
我们相信。
We live it.
我们生活在其中。
It’s not perfect, but we try to inspire that principle in all 130,000 employees in 60 countries.
它并不完美，但我们努力在 60 个国家/地区的所有 130,000 名员工中激发这一原则。
Creatively destroy what has made us successful in the past and make it better every day, whether it’s your individual job and what you focus on or experimenting with new technologies.
创造性地摧毁过去使我们成功的因素，并使其每天变得更好，无论是您的个人工作、您关注的内容还是尝试新技术。
Back to your question on energy, 4 percent of the overall capital consumed at Koch is in refining, which is basically where my grandfather started the company.
回到你关于能源的问题，科赫公司消耗的总资本的 4% 用于炼油，这基本上是我祖父创办公司的地方。
I think that surprises a lot of people because I think a lot of people are still stuck in this, “Well, you’re this energy company.” No, we’re not.
我认为这让很多人感到惊讶，因为我认为很多人仍然陷入困境，“好吧，你是这家能源公司。”不，我们不是。
We touch the majority of the economy now, and we’re in everything from forest products, consumer products, software, as I described, glass manufacturing, to energy and fertilizers as well.
我们现在涉及经济的大部分领域，从林业产品、消费品、软件（正如我所描述的）、玻璃制造，到能源和化肥，我们无所不包。
What have you learned from Marc Andreessen, speaking of partnerships?
谈到合作伙伴关系，您从马克·安德森 (Marc Andreessen) 那里学到了什么？
Marc is amazing.
马克太棒了。
I remember when I started Koch Disruptive Technologies, that was in 2017.
我记得我创办 Koch Disruptive Technologies 是在 2017 年。
Marc was one of my first mentors.
马克是我的第一位导师之一。
I had actually fired myself from being CEO of Koch Fertilizer because I’d spent 10 years in that business, and I had so many great opportunities and different roles, I got to the point where my boss at the time had said, “You’re ready, you need to be CEO, I’m moving on to a different role.” I realized that being a CEO operating in 30 countries and 5,000, 6,000 employees, it wasn’t my comparative advantage, back to that key principle that we described earlier.
事实上，我已经辞掉了科赫化肥公司首席执行官的职务，因为我在这个行业工作了 10 年，我有很多很好的机会和不同的角色，当时我的老板对我说：“你已经准备好了，你需要担任首席执行官，我要转向另一个角色。”我意识到，作为一名在 30 个国家/地区运营、拥有 5,000、6,000 名员工的首席执行官，这并不是我的比较优势，回到我们之前描述的关键原则。
Where my heart was, was in technology and innovation.
我的心在哪里，就是技术和创新。
I wanted to work on the next thing, not optimizing and operating the existing business.
我想从事下一步工作，而不是优化和运营现有业务。
That’s when I had the idea of building Koch Disruptive Technologies from scratch and getting us in the tech game like we’d never been in before, and invest in technologies that were very early.
就在那时，我有了从头开始构建科赫颠覆性技术的想法，让我们以前所未有的方式参与科技游戏，并投资于非常早期的技术。
Koch could look around corners and do a more effective job of driving creative destruction.
科赫可以环顾四周，更有效地推动创造性破坏。
Marc, back to your point, was one of those key mentors.
马克，回到你的观点，他是那些重要的导师之一。
He was one of the first people I sat down with in Silicon Valley.
他是我在硅谷最早见到的人之一。
We had had a prior relationship with him, but I hadn’t really spent a lot of time with him.
我们之前和他有过关系，但我并没有真正花很多时间和他在一起。
I spent an hour with him just walking through all his learnings and how he built Andreessen Horowitz.
我花了一个小时和他一起回顾了他所有的学习以及他如何建立安德森霍洛维茨。
One of the smartest guys in the game, results speak for themselves.
作为游戏中最聪明的人之一，结果不言而喻。
Just how he looks at technology and how he thinks about betting on founders and the values alignment, and what he sees in the pattern analysis, given all of his history, to make the right decision based on the quality of the founder.
他如何看待技术，如何看待押注创始人和价值观一致性，以及他在模式分析中看到的内容，考虑到他的全部历史，以根据创始人的素质做出正确的决定。
Learned a lot and I modeled a lot with KDT after what I learned from Marc, and I would say from Ben as well, and become friends with them both.
从 Marc 那里学到了很多东西，我也用 KDT 做了很多建模，我也会从 Ben 那里学到很多东西，并和他们都成为了朋友。
On the Midwest
在中西部
Do you think the principles of market-based management work especially well in the Midwest and Canada, or is it completely culturally neutral?
您认为基于市场的管理原则在中西部和加拿大特别有效，还是完全文化中立？
There’s a reason we stayed in Wichita, Kansas, in the Midwest.
我们留在中西部堪萨斯州威奇托是有原因的。
How would you articulate that reason?
你会如何阐明这个原因？
I would say talent and values.
我想说的是天赋和价值观。
I call it access to the farm team.
我称之为进入农场团队。
This is our whole talent vision for Koch.
这是我们对科赫的整体人才愿景。
Now, case in point, we operate, as I mentioned, in 60 countries, and I believe we’re in all 50 states.
现在，正如我提到的，我们在 60 个国家/地区开展业务，而且我相信我们的业务遍及所有 50 个州。
I would say how we deliberately think about talent, it’s we want to hire kids that are contribution motivated.
我想说的是，我们如何刻意考虑人才，我们想要雇用有贡献动机的孩子。
I think too often you see in our culture that you have people, or in kids that are more deficiency motivated, if not destructively motivated.
我认为，在我们的文化中，你经常会看到有些人或孩子更具有缺陷动机，即使不是破坏性动机。
There’s a continuum there.
那里有一个连续体。
Contribution motivated all the way to destructively motivated.
贡献动机一直到破坏性动机。
On the contribution motivated side, take the positive.
在贡献动机方面，采取积极的态度。
The reason why I say we want to hire the farm team is kids, whether they grew up on a farm or not, that doesn’t matter, but it’s the mindset.
我之所以说要聘请农场团队，是因为孩子们，不管他们是不是在农场长大的，这并不重要，但这是心态。
The mindset of grit and work ethic, and wanting to come in and make a contribution, as opposed to deficiency motivated where you come in with a victim mindset or you come in with a mindset of, “I went to this fancy school.
坚韧和职业道德的心态，以及想要进来做出贡献的心态，而不是带着受害者心态或带着“我去了这所好学校”的心态进来的缺陷动机。
Look at my resume.
看看我的简历。
I had a 4.0, and I’m entitled to some role, some title, and some salary,” when you haven’t earned it yet.
我有一个 4.0，我有权获得一些角色、一些头衔和一些薪水，”当你还没有赢得它时。
We want the contribution-motivated kids.
我们想要有奉献精神的孩子。
Let me give you one example, Tyler.
让我给你举一个例子，泰勒。
We have our CIO today at Koch, over all of Koch Inc., has no college degree.
我们今天在科赫的首席信息官，以及整个科赫公司的首席信息官，都没有大学学位。
His first access to Koch was stripping lines in the parking lot.
他第一次接触科赫是在拆除停车场的线路。
He just wanted to get in the building.
他只想进大楼。
This was back when we were way more stringent and way more process-driven on talent, which was the wrong way to approach it, just based on resumes and GPA 20-plus years ago.
那时我们对人才的要求更加严格，更加注重流程驱动，20 多年前仅仅根据简历和 GPA 来对待人才是错误的方法。
Somehow, he found a way in Koch.
不知何故，他在科赫身上找到了出路。
He proved himself that he knew a lot about technology.
他证明自己对技术了解很多。
He was helping us a lot with data science in the early days.
早期他在数据科学方面为我们提供了很多帮助。
Then he saw the cyber wave coming and all the cyber risk that Koch had, and all the attacks we were getting, and he built a capability around that.
然后他看到了网络浪潮的到来，科赫面临的所有网络风险，以及我们受到的所有攻击，他围绕这些建立了一种能力。
He became CISO, head of our cybersecurity capability, built that, and then a number of different roles, but is now CIO of Koch.
他成为了首席信息安全官（CISO），我们网络安全能力的负责人，并随后担任了许多不同的角色，但现在是科赫的首席信息官。
No college degree.
没有大学学历。
His name is Jarrod Benson.
他的名字叫贾罗德·本森。
Jarrod is, I’d say, that’s what we want.
我想说，贾罗德就是我们想要的。
We want someone that’s come in and wants their role so badly, and they come in with fire in their belly, just wanting to make a contribution.
我们希望有人进来后非常想要自己的角色，他们进来时肚子里有火，只是想做出贡献。
Look where he is today.
看看他今天在哪里。
How has Wichita most changed since you grew up there?
自从你在那里长大以来，威奇托发生了哪些最大的变化？
That’s interesting.
那很有意思。
It keeps growing.
它不断增长。
There’s more and more businesses here.
这里的生意越来越多。
There’s something in the water here, Tyler.
这里的水里有东西，泰勒。
I think it ties back to access to the farm team and values.
我认为这与接触农场团队和价值观有关。
There’s so many principled entrepreneurs here, and so many great businesses have been built in Wichita.
这里有很多有原则的企业家，威奇托建立了很多伟大的企业。
What I would say how it’s changed is that the people have stayed the same and the value system has stayed the same.
我想说的是，它的变化是人们保持不变，价值体系保持不变。
I have so many friends that left.
我有很多朋友都离开了。
They went to college, or they wanted to go to the big city.
他们上大学了，或者他们想去大城市。
Almost all of them have come back, and it’s for the same reason that I described.
他们几乎都回来了，原因和我描述的一样。
How it’s going to change, I have a specific project I’m working on downtown.
它将如何改变，我正在市中心进行一个特定的项目。
We talked about my passion for music and the ability to unify people.
我们谈论了我对音乐的热情和团结人们的能力。
I’m building around this idea of bringing people together through music.
我的想法是通过音乐将人们聚集在一起。
I’ve helped build festivals here the last couple summers.
过去几个夏天我帮助这里举办了节日。
We have another one coming up in September called Somewhere Fest, where we basically mix great music with social change and bring all that together into one concept.
我们将在 9 月份推出另一场名为“Somewhere Fest”的活动，我们基本上将伟大的音乐与社会变革结合在一起，并将所有这些融合到一个概念中。
I’m building long-term assets here because I think we’ve had a gap in Wichita around music.
我在这里建立长期资产，因为我认为我们在威奇托在音乐方面存在差距。
I’m building an indoor venue that I think fits that gap with a number of other assets around that for housing, working with Wichita State on a number of things downtown.
我正在建造一个室内场馆，我认为该场馆与周围的许多其他住房资产相匹配，并与威奇托州立大学在市中心的许多事情上进行了合作。
I think you’ll see Wichita continue to evolve and hopefully attract more and more of those people that I described.
我想你会看到威奇托继续发展，并希望能吸引越来越多我所描述的人。
You founded a school that is located on the grounds of Wichita State.
您在威奇托州立大学创办了一所学校。
Do I understand that properly?
我的理解正确吗？
Yes.
是的。
I would say my ex-wife founded that.
我想说这是我的前妻创立的。
I can’t remember exactly what year it was, but it’s a school called Wonder.
我记不清具体是哪一年了，但那是一所叫Wonder的学校。
My kids still go there today.
我的孩子们今天仍然去那里。
It’s really this principle that we really support across Stand Together.
我们在“站在一起”中真正支持的正是这一原则。
That’s this idea of where education is going, and what’s helping kids the most is not a one-size-fits-all approach, the teach-to-test model that Tyler, you, and I probably grew up in, with the teacher at the front of the classroom talking at kids.
这就是教育的发展方向，对孩子们最有帮助的不是一刀切的方法，泰勒、你和我可能就是在这种从教学到测试的模式中长大的，老师在教室前面对孩子们说话。
This is more of a model, and I think where most of education is going, project-based learning.
这更多的是一种模式，我认为大多数教育的方向是基于项目的学习。
The kids have agency.
孩子们有代理权。
The kids are the customer, not the teacher.
孩子是顾客，而不是老师。
It’s more of a guided system where each kid has a different gift.
它更像是一个引导系统，每个孩子都有不同的天赋。
You help guide them and find their gift earlier in life than they otherwise would.
您帮助引导他们，并比他们更早地发现他们的天赋。
They’re leveraging things like Claude Code.
他们正在利用 Claude Code 之类的东西。
My son can run circles around me with Claude Code or what he’s building, but it’s because he has the freedom at school to try these different things on his own.
我的儿子可以用 Claude Code 或他正在构建的东西围着我转，但这是因为他在学校有自由地自己尝试这些不同的东西。
No one’s telling him what to do.
没有人告诉他该怎么做。
He and his friends are getting together and saying, “Hey, we can go build stuff.
他和他的朋友们聚在一起说：“嘿，我们可以去建造东西。
We can build video games.
我们可以制作视频游戏。
We can build apps.” What I’m most excited about what we’re working on with Stand Together is around education.
我们可以构建应用程序。”我们与 Stand Together 合作的最令我兴奋的是教育方面的工作。
We are in the middle of one of the biggest movements as a country, I think, that we’ve ever seen.
我认为，作为一个国家，我们正处于我们所见过的最大的运动之一。
If you look pre-COVID at the research, and Stand Together has done all this research, only 20 percent of families were open to their kids going to a nontraditional school.
如果你看看新冠疫情之前的研究，Stand Together 已经完成了所有这些研究，就会发现只有 20% 的家庭对孩子去非传统学校持开放态度。
If you look at over the last year, we’ve measured that same question, and it’s north of 70 percent, I think closer to 80 percent.
如果你看看去年，我们测量了同样的问题，超过了 70%，我认为接近 80%。
In terms of the biggest opportunity for what we can do to transform education, it’s shifting from that one-size-fits-all approach to one where it’s individualized education.
就我们可以做的改变教育的最大机会而言，它正在从一刀切的方法转变为个性化教育的方法。
As you know better than anyone, we now have the technology to do it.
正如您比任何人都清楚的那样，我们现在拥有做到这一点的技术。
Alpha School is a great example of that.
阿尔法学校就是一个很好的例子。
Khan Academy is a great example of that.
可汗学院就是一个很好的例子。
We have a VELA Fund concept where, with the Walton family, where we’re writing very fast checks to any parent, any teacher, any entrepreneur that wants to transform education so they can go build it.
我们有一个 VELA 基金的概念，与沃尔顿家族一起，我们向任何想要改变教育的家长、教师、企业家开出非常快速的支票，以便他们能够去建设教育。
With that model, we’ve built over 5,000 schools over the last five years.
通过这种模式，我们在过去五年里建造了 5,000 多所学校。
If you were to explain to an outsider, in terms of fundamentals, how is Kansas different from Nebraska, how would you put it?
如果你要向一个局外人解释，从根本上讲，堪萨斯州和内布拉斯加州有什么不同，你会怎么说？
Oh, my gosh.
哦，天哪。
In my tennis days, I toured Nebraska quite a bit, but it’s been a while since I’ve been back there.
在我打网球的日子里，我经常游览内布拉斯加州，但我已经有一段时间没有回到那里了。
I wouldn’t be the best person to give you—
我不会是给你最好的人——
That’s endogenous, right?
这是内生的，对吧？
You don’t have to feel you need to go back.
你不必觉得你需要回去。
Okay, that’s fair.
好吧，这很公平。
For the Midwest, Kansas is home.
对于中西部地区来说，堪萨斯州是家乡。
I’d shout from the rooftops at how great this state is.
我会在屋顶上大喊这个州是多么伟大。
I spend a lot of time on the road with my role.
我花了很多时间在路上与我的角色相处。
I’m all about finding the new technologies, building new origination and partnerships.
我致力于寻找新技术、建立新的起源和合作伙伴关系。
I’m on the East Coast, West Coast.
我在东海岸，西海岸。
You see the trend, right?
你看到了趋势，对吗？
You see people leaving the coast wanting something different, whether it’s because they’re taxed too much, or the regulations are too high, the cost of living is too.
你看到人们离开海岸想要一些不同的东西，无论是因为他们的税收太多，还是法规太高，生活成本也太高。
They’re finding markets like Kansas.
他们正在寻找像堪萨斯这样的市场。
Wall Street Journal did a write-up on Wichita three weeks ago about how attractive it is from a cost-of-living standpoint and how more and more people are encouraging people to look at markets, mid-sized cities, and markets like Wichita, Kansas.
三周前，《华尔街日报》发表了一篇关于威奇托的文章，介绍了从生活成本的角度来看威奇托的吸引力，以及越来越多的人如何鼓励人们关注市场、中型城市以及堪萨斯州威奇托等市场。
What’s physically the most beautiful thing about Wichita weather?
威奇托天气中最美丽的事情是什么？
For this summer, it’s been one of the mildest summers so far.
今年夏天是迄今为止最温和的夏天之一。
It was in the 60s the other day.
前几天是 60 年代。
I would say we have an amazing pocket in the fall, which is there’s no other place you’d want to be than Wichita.
我想说，我们在秋天有一个令人惊叹的口袋，那就是威奇托是您最想去的地方。
Then we have another month and a half in spring that’s remarkable.
然后我们还有一个半月的春天，这是非凡的。
The thing that people knock on Kansas is the wind because it’s flat.
人们对堪萨斯的评价是风，因为它很平坦。
You can stand on a can and see a long way when you’re in Kansas.
当你在堪萨斯州时，你可以站在罐子上看到很远的地方。
I’m obviously very proud to be from Kansas and still live here.
我显然非常自豪自己来自堪萨斯州并仍然住在这里。
I think your lightning storms are quite beautiful, and because it’s flat, you can see them very clearly.
我觉得你们的闪电风暴非常漂亮，而且因为地势平坦，所以看得很清楚。
It’s the hot summer months that, for me, are the most attractive about Wichita.
对我来说，威奇托最有吸引力的是炎热的夏季。
Agreed.
同意。
On AI
论人工智能
You mentioned AI.
你提到了人工智能。
How is it in either your personal life or work life?
您的个人生活或工作生活怎么样？
How do you use AI?
你如何使用人工智能？
As I told you, he just turned 14 last week.
正如我告诉过你的，他上周刚刚满 14 岁。
My oldest son is teaching me how to code.
我的大儿子正在教我如何编码。
Never would I have imagined that I could code.
我从来没有想过我会编码。
I was using Claude the last year or so.
去年左右我正在使用克劳德。
When he introduced me to Claude Code, the ability to become a super coder in about 30 or 45 minutes of someone showing you how to use it, what’s amazing now, the first little project I worked on was my son saw I had a bunch of Excel spreadsheets for my exercises and my stretches that I do.
当他向我介绍 Claude Code 时，有人向你展示如何使用它，在大约 30 或 45 分钟内成为超级程序员的能力，现在令人惊奇的是，我从事的第一个小项目是我儿子看到我有一堆 Excel 电子表格用于我的练习和伸展运动。
He’s like, “What is this?” He’s like, “Why don’t you have this to where you have checklists and an app and you can have analysis and charts?” This is my son telling me this.
他说：“这是什么？”他说，“为什么你不把这个放在有清单和应用程序、并且可以进行分析和图表的地方呢？”这是我儿子告诉我的。
I was like, “Then build it for me.” He whipped it together in about an hour or two.
我当时想，“那就为我建造它吧。”他在大约一两个小时内将其搅拌在一起。
Now I have an app on my phone.
现在我的手机上有一个应用程序。
It’s one of the top apps I use to hold myself accountable.
这是我用来让自己负起责任的顶级应用程序之一。
So something as simple as that.
就这么简单。
Then, when I saw the power of it, I’m working on my own operating system.
然后，当我看到它的强大功能时，我开始开发自己的操作系统。
And I can talk about what the company is doing with it as well, but you asked me personally, what am I doing?
我也可以谈论公司正在用它做什么，但你亲自问我，我在做什么？
I’m building my own operating system.
我正在构建自己的操作系统。
I fed it, “Here’s my roles and my responsibilities for Koch as a board leader, as an investment decision-maker, and being on the investment committee, but also with my role as origination in partnerships and finding the next great opportunity.” Then Stand Together, all the things I’m doing there, I fed that document in, and I said, “How can Claude help me become 100X more effective and efficient?
我补充说：“这是我作为董事会领导者、投资决策者和投资委员会成员对科赫的角色和责任，同时也是我作为合作伙伴关系发起者和寻找下一个伟大机会的角色。”然后站在一起，我在那里做的所有事情，我都把这份文件放进去，我说，“克劳德如何帮助我变得更有效率和效率 100 倍？
What engines do I need to build to make me a better decision maker across all these disparate roles?” Then instead of me saying, “I do a lot of origination.
我需要构建哪些引擎才能使我在所有这些不同的角色中成为更好的决策者？”然后我就不用说：“我做了很多原创。
Who are the people that I need to have access to, where I can create mutually beneficial opportunities with?” I just said, instead of me coming up with the engine, Claude came up with all of it.
我需要接触哪些人，我可以与谁创造互利的机会？”我只是说，引擎不是我想出来的，而是克劳德想出来的。
It gave me five engines.
它给了我五个引擎。
I have it actually right here.
我这里确实有。
Let me pull it up—five engines that I use to just operate my day.
让我把它拉起来——我一天用的五个引擎。
It’s everything from origination.
一切都是从起源开始的。
It analyzes the quarterly business reviews for all the business, helps me ask better questions.
它分析所有业务的季度业务回顾，帮助我提出更好的问题。
It recommends strategies to me.
它向我推荐策略。
It literally is 100X to 1,000X in terms of what it can do, and that’s anyone.
就其功能而言，它实际上是 100 倍到 1,000 倍，而且是任何人。
It doesn’t matter what role you have.
你扮演什么角色并不重要。
If you’re head of sales, if you’re a salesperson, if you’re an admin, whatever role it is, can supercharge whatever gift you have.
如果你是销售主管，如果你是销售人员，如果你是管理员，无论是什么角色，都可以增强你拥有的任何天赋。
That’s what we’re trying to do across the company is help people understand that and encourage people to use things like Claude and ChatGPT.
这就是我们在整个公司努力做的事情，帮助人们理解这一点，并鼓励人们使用 Claude 和 ChatGPT 之类的东西。
Across the company and your affiliates, what do you do to incentivize your workers, managers to do something with this?
在整个公司和您的附属公司中，您如何激励您的员工、经理为此做一些事情？
It starts with leadership.
这要从领导力开始。
One of the key principles that we have in the book, Tyler, is bottom-up versus top-down.
泰勒，我们在书中提出的关键原则之一是自下而上与自上而下。
One of the ways I describe principle-based management and what is different about Koch is asking yourself the question, if you run an organization, what if you had a culture where everyone knew what to do without being told?
我描述基于原则的管理以及科赫的不同之处的方式之一是问自己这样一个问题：如果你经营一个组织，如果你有一种每个人都知道该做什么而无需被告知的文化会怎么样？
It’s a big question.
这是一个大问题。
I’m not saying we have that at Koch, but it is a vision for us.
我并不是说科赫就拥有这样的能力，但这对我们来说是一个愿景。
What that principle is, is bottom-up empowerment as opposed to top-down control and dependency on the smartest guy in the room.
这个原则是自下而上的授权，而不是自上而下的控制和对房间里最聪明的人的依赖。
It’s really all about empowering people with principles, but to your point, also empowering people with technology and empowering people with tools.
这实际上就是用原则赋予人们权力，但就你而言，也用技术赋予人们权力，用工具赋予人们权力。
The incentive is, it just makes them more effective.
其动机是，它只会让他们更加高效。
I think there’s a natural motivation there for any employee to say, “Do I want to do my job more effectively?
我认为任何员工都有自然的动机说：“我想更有效地完成我的工作吗？
Yes.
是的。
Are there tools out there that can help me with that?
有没有可以帮助我的工具？
Of course.” A role as a supervisor is to encourage and empower these people with principles.
当然。”作为主管的角色是用原则来鼓励和授权这些人。
Are you driving creative destruction of your own role?
你是否正在对自己的角色进行创造性的破坏？
Are you driving creative destruction of your own business?
您是否正在对自己的企业进行创造性破坏？
Are you practicing experimental discovery with technology?
您是否正在利用技术进行实验发现？
That’s another one of our principles.
这是我们的另一项原则。
They’re questions, they’re not, “Go do this.” I think that’s what’s very different about a bottom-up approach as opposed to running an organization from the top down.
它们是问题，而不是“去做吧”。我认为这就是自下而上的方法与自上而下管理组织的非常不同的地方。
On politics
关于政治
Now, we live in a great country.
现在，我们生活在一个伟大的国家。
As you know, Kansas is a great state.
如您所知，堪萨斯州是一个伟大的州。
We have other great states.
我们还有其他伟大的国家。
What’s the most fundamental reason for trying to understand why so many of our political candidates are so terribly bad?
试图理解为什么我们这么多的政治候选人如此糟糕的最根本原因是什么？
That is a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
I wish I knew the answer to that question.
我希望我知道这个问题的答案。
I think we need more people that have been successful in business and that really understand the real world to engage in politics.
我认为我们需要更多在商业上取得成功并且真正了解现实世界的人来参与政治。
I would say, Tyler, for me personally, I have never been one to get really excited about politics and engage in politics.
我想说，泰勒，就我个人而言，我从来都不是一个真正对政治感到兴奋并参与政治的人。
My focus is really more on all the community things that we’re talking about, transforming education, culture.
我的重点实际上更多地放在我们正在谈论的所有社区事物上，即改变教育和文化。
Politics is critical.
政治至关重要。
Our focus around politics is around encouraging principle-driven policies.
我们围绕政治的重点是鼓励原则驱动的政策。
It’s policy versus politics.
这是政策与政治的对抗。
If we can get away from Republican versus Democrat and apply the principle of openness and work together more, and have politicians that have that mindset.
如果我们能够摆脱共和党与民主党的对抗，应用开放的原则，更多地合作，并拥有具有这种心态的政客。
My father taught me about Frederick Douglass, and that’s one of his, and frankly mine, most inspirational leaders, because he taught everyone to work with anyone to do right.
我的父亲向我介绍了弗雷德里克·道格拉斯（Frederick Douglass），这是他（坦率地说，也是我的）最鼓舞人心的领导人之一，因为他教导每个人与任何人合作，做正确的事。
We don’t see much of that today in politics.
如今，我们在政治中已经看不到太多这样的事情了。
It’s Republican versus Democrat mudslinging.
这是共和党与民主党之间的诽谤。
If we could work together, like what we’re doing, what we did on criminal justice reform, we worked with Van Jones as an example.
如果我们能够共同努力，就像我们正在做的事情，我们在刑事司法改革方面所做的那样，我们以范琼斯为例。
Van disagrees with us on probably seven or eight out of 10 things, but we saw the one thing we could agree on, and we saw a problem around criminal justice system, and we came together, and we helped drive change in that.
范可能在十分之七或八的事情上不同意我们的观点，但我们看到了我们可以达成一致的一件事，我们看到了刑事司法系统的问题，我们走到了一起，帮助推动了这方面的变革。
We’re also doing the same in transforming education, working with anyone to do right.
我们也在教育转型方面做同样的事情，与任何人合作做正确的事。
We’ve helped pass school reform in 33 states now, which going back to what I think is the biggest opportunity to transform education and one of the biggest movements.
我们现在已经帮助 33 个州通过了学校改革，这可以追溯到我认为改变教育的最大机会和最大的运动之一。
That’s one of the reasons it’s happening, because people are working together because they see how broken the education system is.
这是发生这种情况的原因之一，因为人们正在共同努力，因为他们看到教育体系有多么支离破碎。
I can’t speak to a specific politician or this and that.
我无法与特定的政客或这个或那个交谈。
It’s not really my focus, but I can speak to what I feel like we need to do at the principle level.
这并不是我真正关注的重点，但我可以谈谈我认为我们需要在原则层面上做的事情。
Last question.
最后一个问题。
Obviously, you’re very busy, including being a father.
显然，你很忙，包括做父亲。
Is there a place you’ve never been, and you think of going, traveling to, and what would that place be, and why does it so intrigue you?
有没有一个地方你从未去过，但你想去、去旅行，那个地方会是什么，为什么它如此吸引你？
That’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
With my roles across Koch, I’ve been to a lot of places around the world.
由于我在科赫的角色，我去过世界各地的很多地方。
I’ve seen most of the world.
我已经见过世界的大部分了。
As I mentioned, I spent a lot of time in Brazil.
正如我提到的，我在巴西度过了很多时间。
I’ve been all over Europe.
我走遍了欧洲。
I’ve built businesses there.
我在那里建立了企业。
I spent time in Asia.
我在亚洲呆过一段时间。
God, where do I want to go?
天哪，我想去哪里？
I’ll tell you where I’m going this summer that I’ve never been.
我会告诉你今年夏天我要去哪里但我从未去过。
Croatia, just because I’ve heard it is so spectacularly beautiful.
克罗地亚，只是因为我听说它是如此美丽。
After this book tour, over the last four to five weeks, I’m going to need an opportunity to recharge the batteries.
在这本书的巡演之后，在过去的四到五周里，我将需要一个机会来充电。
That’s where we’re going this summer.
这就是我们今年夏天要去的地方。
I’ll tell you how it is.
我来告诉你是怎么回事。
I’ve heard amazing things about it.
我听说过一些令人惊奇的事情。
The culture, the people, and the beauty of it.
文化、人民和它的美丽。
We’re going to spend a week there, and I’ll let you know how it goes.
我们将在那里度过一周，我会让你知道进展如何。
I’ve loved my trips there, and it has arguably the most beautiful people in the world.
我很喜欢那里的旅行，那里可以说是世界上最美丽的人。
Oh, wonderful.
哦，太棒了。
Chase Koch, thank you very much.
蔡斯·科赫，非常感谢你。
Tyler, thanks for the opportunity.
泰勒，谢谢你给我这个机会。
It’s great to see you, and great to be on.
很高兴见到你，也很高兴加入。
Thanks a lot.
多谢。
Again, everyone, to repeat, Charles and Chase Koch have a new book out, Becoming a Principle-Driven Leader.
大家再说一遍，查尔斯·科赫和蔡斯·科赫出版了一本新书，《成为原则驱动的领导者》。
Hey, Tyler, if I could say one more thing.
嘿，泰勒，我还能再说一件事吗？
Sure.
当然。
We didn’t think about this just as a book.
我们并不认为这只是一本书。
We think about it as a platform for principles.
我们将其视为原则平台。
One of the things that we built is an app that your audience can download on any of the app stores, whether it’s the Apple App Store or Google Play.
我们构建的应用程序之一是您的受众可以在任何应用程序商店（无论是 Apple App Store 还是 Google Play）上下载的应用程序。
It’s called Principle Companion.
它被称为原则伴侣。
What it is, is one field, just like ChatGPT, solve your problem with principles now.
它就是一个领域，就像ChatGPT一样，现在用原理解决你的问题。
With engaging with this in five minutes on a specific problem that you have today, whether it’s in business, whether it’s family problems, whether it’s sports team problems, it’ll coach you through with the principles that many of them I described on this podcast.
用五分钟的时间来解决你今天遇到的具体问题，无论是商业问题，家庭问题，运动队问题，它都会指导你完成我在这个播客中描述的许多原则。
I think it’s another way for people to engage with something that they’re dealing with right now.
我认为这是人们参与他们现在正在处理的事情的另一种方式。
I’d encourage downloading Principle Companion as well.
我也鼓励下载 Principle Companion。
Thanks for the opportunity.
感谢您提供的机会。
I’ll add there’s a QR code in the book.
我会补充一下书中有一个二维码。
I also received my copy of 41 cards for the 41 principles.
我还收到了包含 41 条原则的 41 张卡片副本。
Here are principle leadership questions in a little red box.
以下是小红框中的主要领导力问题。
Amazing.
惊人的。
Chase, thanks again.
蔡斯，再次感谢。
Thanks again, Tyler.
再次感谢，泰勒。
I really appreciate you.
我真的很感激你。