Camille Paglia on Her Lifestyle of Observation and Lamb Vindaloo (Ep. 9 - Live at Mason)

There was a major political reporter at the Boston Globe, for example, who tried to pressure me not to write for the web.

例如，《波士顿环球报》的一位重要政治记者试图向我施压，让我不要为网络撰稿。

He said, “Oh, no one takes the web seriously.” It’s an enormous thing that’s happened.

他说：“哦，没有人认真对待网络。”这是一件巨大的事情发生了。

Which, of course, has also sucked in a whole generation of young people, alas.

当然，这也吸引了整整一代年轻人，唉。

That’s all they know.

这就是他们所知道的一切。

I think we’re kind of on the downside of that right now.

我认为我们现在处于不利的一面。

I think it’s getting worse and worse.

我认为情况变得越来越糟。

Web design, which my school, University of the Arts, teaches — I think web design is in the pits.

网页设计，我的学校艺术大学教授 — 我认为网页设计正处于困境中。

I thought web design was moving into becoming a major genre of the arts.

我认为网页设计正在成为一种主要的艺术流派。

I think we’re in a kind of swirling vortex — and yes, what you mentioned about the miniaturization of image is terrible.

我认为我们正处于一种漩涡中——是的，你提到的图像微型化是可怕的。

I was raised in a time, 1950s, when Hollywood was competing with television by doing something which television couldn’t do, with those gigantic screens.

我是在 20 世纪 50 年代长大的，当时好莱坞正在与电视竞争，他们用巨大的屏幕做了一些电视无法做到的事情。

Like in The Ten Commandments, there’s a giant thing of Pharaoh, a giant sculpture.

就像《十诫》中一样，有一个巨大的法老的东西，一个巨大的雕塑。

It starts at one end of the screen and you watch it go to the other end of the screen.

它从屏幕的一端开始，然后您看着它移动到屏幕的另一端。

Phenomenal.

非凡的。

Lawrence of Arabia, oh my God, the dunes of Lawrence of Arabia with that music.

阿拉伯的劳伦斯，天哪，阿拉伯的劳伦斯的沙丘和那音乐。

There’s no sense of the large.

没有大的感觉。

Young people have no sense whatever of the expansive, of the big gesture.

年轻人对扩张、宏大的姿态没有任何感觉。

I think we go back and forth.

我想我们会来来回回。

I just feel lucky, I think, that I have a kind of epic imagination, because I was raised watching The Ten Commandments and Ben-Hur.

我觉得我很幸运，因为我有一种史诗般的想象力，因为我是看着《十诫》和《宾虚》长大的。

Oh my God, Ben-Hur.

天哪，宾虚。

I could watch that 300 times.

我可以看300遍。

They understood my vision of art and beauty — and beauty as an incredibly important human principle, rather than the way it was being trashed by my fellow feminists at that time.

他们理解我对艺术和美的看法，并将美视为一项极其重要的人类原则，而不是像当时的女权主义者同胞们那样糟蹋它。

They also understand nature, the grandeur of nature, the power of nature.

他们也了解自然，了解自然的伟大，了解自然的力量。

It’s much larger.

它要大得多。

On George Lucas and Star Wars

关于乔治·卢卡斯和星球大战

Therefore, I think anyone who dismisses what I say about the sublime quality, the vision, the execution, the emotions, and the passions of that scene, they don’t know what I’m talking about, because they haven’t exposed themselves to it.

因此，我认为任何对我所说的那个场景的崇高品质、愿景、执行、情感和激情不屑一顾的人，他们不知道我在说什么，因为他们还没有接触过它。

On popular music, both past and present

论过去和现在的流行音乐

I still think they’re good, but when I go back and listen, I never hear new things in their music.

我仍然认为他们很好，但是当我回去听时，我从来没有在他们的音乐中听到新的东西。

Now that some time has passed, what would you say about the Rolling Stones, and do you agree that you’re a little disappointed with them?

现在已经过去了一段时间，你对滚石乐队有什么看法？你是否同意你对他们有点失望？

I really have not been following the Stones.

我真的没有关注滚石乐队。

Ever since Bill Wyman left the Stones, I have not felt that this was the Stones I knew.

自从比尔·怀曼离开滚石乐队后，我就不再觉得这还是我所认识的滚石乐队了。

I’m delighted that they go on, and that they perform, and so on, but I have absolutely no interest in exposing myself to those horrible arena conditions for music.

我很高兴他们继续前进，他们表演等等，但我绝对没有兴趣让自己暴露在那些可怕的音乐舞台条件下。

Oh my goodness, just the light shows and the this and the that.

天哪，只有灯光秀和这个那个。

They’re not musical experiences.

它们不是音乐体验。

They’re social experiences now.

它们现在是社交体验。

I love that entire period of the 1960s, the music.

我喜欢整个 20 世纪 60 年代的音乐。

It was a magic moment.

这是一个神奇的时刻。

Still in the ’70s, Led Zeppelin, “When the Levee Breaks.” It still has enormous power.

还是 70 年代，齐柏林飞艇的《当堤坝决堤时》。它仍然拥有巨大的力量。

A lot of that music that Jimmy Page was doing.

吉米·佩奇（Jimmy Page）创作的很多音乐。

A lot of it working in the studio, actually.

事实上，很多都是在工作室里完成的。

It wasn’t just live music.

这不仅仅是现场音乐。

It’s because our music industry is now very formulaic.

这是因为我们的音乐产业现在非常公式化。

Young people can’t really move along studying their instruments and getting their chops over a period of time.

年轻人无法真正在一段时间内学习他们的乐器并获得他们的印章。

There’s nothing to draw on in the way that the musicians of my generation could draw on the folk tradition, the folk music.

我们这一代的音乐家可以借鉴民间传统、民间音乐，但没有什么可以借鉴的。

For example, Shakespeare would not be Shakespeare if he were alive today.

例如，如果莎士比亚今天还活着，他就不再是莎士比亚了。

As it happens, he left Stratford — for whatever reason — went to London at a magic moment when theater was flourishing, which was only for a few decades, and then it was out again.

碰巧的是，他离开斯特拉特福——“无论出于什么原因”——来到伦敦，恰逢戏剧繁荣的神奇时刻，这种繁荣只持续了几十年，然后又再次流行。

There’s a certain kind of luck.

有某种运气。

If you’re the right person at the right time in any one of the artistic genres.

如果您是任何一种艺术流派中正确的时间的正确的人。

On higher education

关于高等教育

You work in small classes, but the classes are all online.

你在小班授课，但课程都是在线的。

There’s no library.

没有图书馆。

There’s no formal campus, per se.

本身没有正式的校园。

It’s been around for about two years.

它已经存在大约两年了。

What do you think?

你怎么认为？

What’s your prediction?

你的预测是什么？

Nick Donner Photography

尼克·唐纳摄影

I know because I get everyone in my classroom.

我知道，因为我让每个人都来到我的教室。

I’m lucky I teach at a kind of school where I’m getting students from a wide range of preparation.

我很幸运，我在一所学校教书，在那里我可以让学生接受广泛的准备。

There might be a couple private school people, but people from the inner city, from good schools, from bad schools.

可能有几个私立学校的人，但都是来自内城的人，来自好学校的人，来自差学校的人。

I really have a very clear sense, after 40 years of teaching, what’s going on at the primary school level.

经过40年的教学，我确实非常清楚地意识到小学阶段发生了什么。

It is unbelievable how little they know.

令人难以置信的是他们知道的如此之少。

It is absolutely shocking how little they know.

他们知道的太少，绝对令人震惊。

This is a recipe for a disaster.

这是一场灾难的根源。

I say yes, send them abroad.

我说是啊，送他们出国吧。

Fantastic idea.

很棒的主意。

This other thing of the online thing, I don’t believe this online thing at all.

网上的另一件事，我根本不相信网上的事情。

I think that you need a live person, and you need a live person who can talk extemporaneously and respond to the moment.

我觉得你需要一个活生生的人，需要一个能即兴说话、能即时做出反应的活生生的人。

Not just people who are reading the same old damn lecture over and over again.

不仅仅是那些一遍又一遍地阅读同一个该死的老讲座的人。

Also, the kind of teaching that goes on in the Ivy League where there’s a flattering.

此外，常春藤盟校的教学方式也充满了奉承。

There’s these small seminar things.

有这些小型研讨会的事情。

I would see him turning up at a doorway.

我会看到他出现在门口。

“Hello, hello, hello,” OK, that’s all.

“你好，你好，你好”，就这样吧。

I just knew him to say hello to him.

我只是认识他，向他打个招呼。

Then, he heard what I was going to be working on and that I was having trouble finding a dissertation director for a study of androgyny in literature and art.

然后，他听说了我要从事的工作，以及我很难找到文学和艺术中双性化研究的论文导师。

That’s a time when nobody was doing — it’s hard to believe now because everything is sex and gender everywhere — but at the time, no one was doing a dissertation on sex at the Yale Graduate School.

那是一个没人在做的时代——“现在很难相信，因为一切都是性，无处不在的性别”——但当时，耶鲁大学研究生院没有人写一篇关于性的论文。

It’s hard to believe.

很难相信。

He summoned me to his office.

他把我叫到他的办公室。

That’s really how we met.

我们就是这样认识的。

He said, “My dear, I am the only one who can direct that dissertation,” and I said, “OK.” That was it.

他说：“亲爱的，我是唯一可以指导那篇论文的人，”我说，“好吧。”就是这样。

He understood everything.

他什么都明白了。

He understood everything I wanted to do with the book, and he understood my ideas.

他了解我想用这本书做的一切，也了解我的想法。

He was a fantastic resource for me in so far as he also supported me or gave me confidence throughout all those decades when I couldn’t get it published.

他对我来说是一个很棒的资源，因为在我无法出版它的几十年里，他也支持我或给了我信心。

Sexual Personae was rejected by seven publishers and five agents.

《性人格》被七家出版商和五家代理商拒绝。

By the time it was published, I was 43 years old.

当它出版时，我已经 43 岁了。

I’m a great role model, it seems to me, for people to just soldier through adversity and rejection and just continue to develop the craft.

在我看来，我是一个伟大的榜样，让人们能够勇敢地面对逆境和拒绝，并继续发展自己的技艺。

Eventually, hopefully, one will see one’s work in print.

最终，希望人们能看到自己的作品被印刷出来。

On things under- and overrated

关于被低估和高估的事情

Thanks to Kate Millett and all these philistine feminist types in the early ’70s, there was a great sweeping away of many, many major male figures in the history of literature including Ernest Hemingway, D.

感谢凯特·米利特和 70 年代初所有这些市侩的女权主义者，文学史上许多许多重要的男性人物，包括欧内斯特·海明威、D.

H.

H.

Lawrence, who had a huge influence on me.

劳伦斯，他对我影响很大。

If you are a resident of Mississippi, Faulkner still lives and is vivid.

如果你是密西西比州的居民，福克纳仍然活着并且栩栩如生。

I think, outside of that, it’s been years since I’ve heard Faulkner mentioned.

我想，除此之外，我已经很多年没有听人提到福克纳了。

The fiction writers are off in another world.

小说作家们已经到了另一个世界。

They don’t see the world as it exists now.

他们看不到现在的世界。

They don’t use the language of the contemporary world.

他们不使用当代世界的语言。

Their English is utterly stale and cloistered.

他们的英语完全陈旧且与世隔绝。

I cannot read a page of contemporary fiction, I’m sorry.

抱歉，我一页也读不懂当代小说。

Anything that’s pre–contemporary fiction, I’m a great admirer of.

任何前当代小说，我都是非常崇拜的。

Believe me, these are the kind of books I’ll open like this and like that.

相信我，这些都是我会这样或那样打开的书。

The fiction writers are off in another world.

小说作家们已经到了另一个世界。

They don’t see the world as it exists now.

他们看不到现在的世界。

They don’t use the language of the contemporary world.

他们不使用当代世界的语言。

Their English is utterly stale and cloistered.

他们的英语完全陈旧且与世隔绝。

I cannot read a page of contemporary fiction, I’m sorry.

抱歉，我一页也读不懂当代小说。

People kept trying to bring us together.

人们一直试图让我们走到一起。

HBO wanted to do a My Dinner with Andre type of thing with Madonna and me, and she was afraid.

HBO 想与麦当娜和我一起做一场“我与安德烈共进晚餐”之类的事情，但她很害怕。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

I think she thought I was going to be some big intellectual, but it’s not true.

我想她认为我会成为一个大知识分子，但事实并非如此。

In other words, they’ve been raised in this bourgeois, pampered cocoon, so I think there’s been a tremendous failure of parenting, certainly, in terms of young people being ready to take on the real world in their late teens.

换句话说，他们是在资产阶级的、被养尊处优的环境中长大的，所以我认为，就年轻人在十几岁就准备好面对现实世界而言，我认为养育子女确实是一个巨大的失败。

I think Antony and Cleopatra was a great favorite of my generation, of the ’60s generation, but, for some reason, it’s becoming marginal.

我认为《安东尼与克利奥帕特拉》是我这一代、60 年代一代的最爱，但由于某种原因，它正在变得边缘化。

I’m not sure.

我不知道。

Maybe because it’s about imperialism.

也许是因为它是关于帝国主义的。

On sexual attitudes, both foreign and domestic

关于国外和国内的性态度

I think that the women are magnificent.

我觉得女人都是伟大的。

They’re incredible, the way they look and dress.

他们的外表和穿着都令人难以置信。

They have such style, and assertiveness, and so on, but I’m not sure the communications with men are particularly successful right now.

她们有这样的风格，有自信等等，但我不确定现在与男性的沟通是否特别成功。

There’s a lot of static there.

那里有很多静电。

Nick Donner Photography

尼克·唐纳摄影

The men are like gnomes.

男人们就像侏儒。

It’s strange.

很奇怪。

They don’t have this thing.

他们没有这个东西。

In the United States, usually the upper middle class, successful careers and so on, you have the women doing their Pilates, and then the men will be going to the gym also.

在美国，通常是中上阶层、事业成功等，女性会做普拉提，然后男性也会去健身房。

Not in Brazil.

不在巴西。

The men just seem to sag and get plumper and plumper, and duller and duller, and lose their hair and nobody minds.

男人们似乎都下垂了，变得越来越胖，越来越无趣，头发也掉光了，没人介意。

I think because they assume that woman rules.

我认为是因为他们认为女人统治。

Woman is the cock of the walk down there.

女人是那里散步的公鸡。

I’m still trying to figure it out.

我还在想办法。

Anyway, I love it.

无论如何，我喜欢它。

I adore it.

我喜欢它。

I love Brazilian women.

我爱巴西女人。

They’re so bossy.

他们太专横了。

There was an enormous flamboyance and assertiveness to gay male culture once.

男同性恋文化曾经非常华丽和自信。

It had a distinct style and voice of its own.

它有自己独特的风格和声音。

What you’re saying, things are turning out better.

正如你所说，事情正在变得更好。

Yes, there’s an assimilation going on, but also, to me, a disappearance of that gay aesthetic.

是的，同化正在发生，但对我来说，同性恋审美也在消失。

Oscar Wilde is one of the major influences on my thinking and remains that.

奥斯卡·王尔德是对我的思想产生主要影响的人之一，而且仍然如此。

I teach a whole course on Oscar Wilde.

我教授一门关于奥斯卡·王尔德的课程。

Now, what can you say?

现在，你能说什么？

Is there anything distinctly gay right now, except there are certainly gay activists who are extremely successful in terms of pushing their agenda.

现在有没有什么明显的同性恋，除了肯定有同性恋积极分子在推动他们的议程方面非常成功。

Probably these little cadres of gay activists are the only thing that’s left.

也许这些同性恋活动家的小干部是唯一剩下的了。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

Assimilation is always a loss.

同化总是一种损失。

Certainly, my culture experienced it.

当然，我的文化也经历过这种情况。

Italian-American culture has kind of vanished, too.

意大利裔美国文化也已经消失了。

The problem right now is that the masculine has no honor whatever in our culture.

现在的问题是，在我们的文化中，男性没有任何荣誉。

We’re in a period now where young people are being processed for the universities, and the gender norms are said to be that gender is a construct.

我们现在正处于一个年轻人正在接受大学录取的时期，而性别规范据说是性别是一种建构。

It is simply the product of environmental pressures on people.

它只是环境压力对人们造成的产物。

There’s no nothing in the body — .

体内什么都没有 —— 。

That is why masculinity is constantly being eroded, diminished, and dissolved on university campuses because it allows women to be weak.

这就是为什么男性气质在大学校园里不断被侵蚀、削弱和消解，因为它让女性变得软弱。

If you have weak men, then you can have weak women.

如果你有软弱的男人，那么你就可以有软弱的女人。

That’s what we have.

这就是我们所拥有的。

Our university system, anything that is remotely masculine is identified as toxic, as intrinsic to rape culture.

在我们的大学系统中，任何带有男性气息的东西都被认为是有毒的，是强奸文化所固有的。

A utopian future is imagined where there are no men.

人们想象了一个没有人类的乌托邦未来。

We’re all genderless mannequins.

我们都是无性别的人体模特。

The movie The Time Machine is like one.

电影《时间机器》就是其中之一。

We’re moving toward that, the Eloi.

我们正在朝着这个方向前进，埃洛伊。

That’s how I see the upper middle class graduates of the Ivy League.

这就是我对常春藤联盟中上阶层毕业生的看法。

They’re the Eloi.

他们是埃洛伊人。

I’ve been told that also when I go to Norway.

当我去挪威时也有人告诉我。

People say, “Oh, we can’t stand it.

人们说：“哦，我们受不了了。

We are not allowed to have an opinion in Norway.

在挪威我们不被允许发表意见。

We all have to have a consensus.” Everyone is very civilized in Canada, but it’s impossible to rise above the herd, also.

我们大家必须达成共识。”在加拿大，每个人都很文明，但也不可能出类拔萃。

You can’t make any big gestures; you’re thought to be antisocial.

你不能做出任何大动作；你被认为是反社会的。

I wouldn’t glorify Canada.

我不会赞美加拿大。

On middle- and late-period Camille

论中后期卡米尔

Beethoven is maybe the most obvious example, but there are many, many others.

贝多芬也许是最明显的例子，但还有很多很多其他例子。

When you think of your own career, how do you see it as fitting together in terms of a time arc, what you’ve done and what you want to do?

当你想到自己的职业生涯时，你认为它在时间弧线、你所做的事情和你想做的事情方面如何结合在一起？

What are your early, middle, and late periods?

你的早、中、晚各是什么时期？

Where are you in it now?

你现在在哪里？

I go around and I find little tiny artifacts.

我四处走动，发现了一些微小的文物。

I read.

我读了。

Absolutely no one, especially anyone in Manhattan, has the slightest interest in what I’m doing.

绝对没有人，尤其是曼哈顿的任何人，对我正在做的事情有丝毫兴趣。

Everything has been prepared for in my life.

我生命中的一切都已经准备好了。

I’ve always been interested in archeology.

我一直对考古学很感兴趣。

I feel like I make a contribution, even though no one’s interested at all.

我觉得我做出了贡献，尽管根本没有人感兴趣。

What I’m trying to do is show how the politicization of ethnic studies, of racial studies, and so on has actually been very limiting.

我想做的是表明民族研究、种族研究等的政治化实际上是非常有限的。

I find very objectionable this eternal projection of genocide and disaster and so on onto Native American studies.

我发现这种将种族灭绝和灾难等永恒地投射到美洲原住民研究上的做法是非常令人反感的。

I’d like to show the actual vision of Native American culture which is a religious vision, a metaphysical vision, and — .

我想展示美洲原住民文化的真实愿景，这是一种宗教愿景，一种形而上学的愿景，以及 —— 。

We know more actually about the Plains Indians and, obviously, Northwestern Indians, and the Navaho than we do about the Northeastern Indians.

事实上，我们对平原印第安人，显然还有西北印第安人和纳瓦霍人的了解比对东北印第安人的了解更多。

I believe that there are remnants everywhere — I stumbled on this.

我相信到处都有遗迹 —— 我偶然发现了这一点。

I’m very sorry I didn’t notice this when I was living all those years in Upstate New York, where the Onondagas still have their reservation.

我很抱歉，当我住在纽约州北部时，我没有注意到这一点，奥农达加斯人仍然保留在那里。

Probably the remnants of these glacial era cultures were still there as well.

也许这些冰川时代文化的残余仍然存在。

But I find it’s absolutely staggering.

但我发现这绝对令人震惊。

It is staggering the actual signs and remnants that are everywhere in the Northeast.

东北随处可见的实际痕迹和遗迹，令人瞠目结舌。

I could go out right now, find some dirt, and I’ll find you a broken tool.

我现在就可以出去，找到一些泥土，然后我会给你找一个坏掉的工具。

It’s absolutely incredible.

这绝对令人难以置信。

I feel that’s what I should be doing something like this, which no one is interested in.

我觉得这就是我应该做的事情，但没有人感兴趣。

But I feel it’s substantive, and I hope can help to show what was here before.

但我觉得它是实质性的，我希望能够帮助展示以前的情况。

All my writing on popular culture, I’ve continued to do.

我所有关于流行文化的写作都是我继续写的。

Like on football, I had a chapter, “Baseball versus Football,” and football is the ultimate pagan sport, etc.

就像足球一样，我有一章“棒球与足球”，足球是终极异教运动，等等。

Well I wrote for Wall Street Journal, my football feminism.

嗯，我为《华尔街日报》撰写了我的足球女权主义。

I have a whole concept and philosophy of that.

我对此有一个完整的概念和哲学。

Now, football is getting more and more boring.

现在，足球越来越无聊了。

It’s gotten more and more technocratic.

它变得越来越技术官僚。

It’s not in a period right now that I would celebrate.

现在不是我应该庆祝的时期。

But I was celebrating that tremendous period when there were still hard hits and there was still defense.

但我正在庆祝那个伟大的时期，当时仍然有猛烈的打击，仍然有防守。

There wasn’t all this throwing, flinging the ball down the field, people catching it like ballerinas.

没有所有这些投掷，将球抛向球场，人们像芭蕾舞演员一样接球。

On Amelia Earhart and feminism

关于阿米莉亚·埃尔哈特和女权主义

I became very interested in her.

我对她非常感兴趣。

At that point, I was, I guess, 14.

我猜那时我才 14 岁。

I began researching her in the bowels of the Syracuse Library, the things were still not on microfilm yet.

我开始在雪城图书馆的内部对她进行研究，这些东西还没有在缩微胶卷上。

All the newspapers were still there from the 1930s.

所有 20 世纪 30 年代的报纸都还在那里。

I did that for three years on this research project.

我在这个研究项目上这样做了三年。

That’s how I became a feminist before feminism had revived, because I suddenly discovered this period just after women had won the right to vote.

这就是我在女权主义复兴之前成为女权主义者的原因，因为我在女性刚刚赢得选举权之后突然发现了这个时期。

In the 1920s and ’30s, we had all these career women, like Amelia Earhart, Dorothy Parker, Dorothy Thompson, Clare Boothe Luce.

在 20 世纪 20 年代和 30 年代，我们有很多职业女性，比如阿米莉亚·埃尔哈特 (Amelia Earhart)、多萝西·帕克 (Dorothy Parker)、多萝西·汤普森 (Dorothy Thompson)、克莱尔·布斯·卢斯 (Clare Boothe Luce)。

There’s so many women, Margaret Bourke-White.

玛格丽特·伯克-怀特，女人太多了。

By the time second-wave feminism revived, which was with Betty Friedan’s cofounding of NOW in 1967, I was out of sync with them.

1967 年，随着贝蒂·弗里丹 (Betty Friedan) 与人共同创立 NOW，第二波女权主义重新兴起，我已经与她们格格不入了。

When suddenly they revived, began complaining about men, and all that stuff, so on and so forth, I hated it.

当他们突然苏醒，开始抱怨男人，以及诸如此类的事情时，我讨厌它。

It was early clashes that I had with those feminists from the start.

我从一开始就与那些女权主义者发生了早期冲突。

I tried to join second-wave feminism.

我试图加入第二波女权主义。

They wouldn’t have me because I would not bad mouth men.

他们不会收留我，因为我不会说男人坏话。

These women, like Amelia Earhart, they did not bad mouth men.

这些女人，就像阿米莉亚·埃尔哈特一样，她们不会说男人坏话。

They admired men.

她们钦佩男人。

They admired what men had done.

他们钦佩男人所做的事情。

What they said was, “We demand equal opportunity for women,” which gave us the opportunity to show that we can achieve at the same level as men who did all these great things.

他们说的是，“我们要求女性享有平等的机会”，这让我们有机会证明，我们可以取得与做出所有这些伟大成就的男性相同的水平。

That was not the tone of second-wave feminism from the start.

这从一开始就不是第二波女权主义的基调。

It’s almost like, “Patriarchy — ” like this.

这几乎就像“父权制 —— ”这样。

These women were insane.

这些女人都疯了。

I found out from the start.

我从一开始就发现了。

I went to this feminist conference at the Yale Law School when I was in graduate school.

当我在读研究生时，我参加了耶鲁大学法学院的女权主义会议。

It was 1971.

那是 1971 年。

Kate Millett was there.

凯特·米利特也在场。

Rita Mae Brown who later became a lesbian novelist and lives on a horse farm in Virginia came around.

后来成为一名女同性恋小说家、住在弗吉尼亚州一个马场的丽塔·梅·布朗（Rita Mae Brown）改变了主意。

We had this huge screaming argument.

我们进行了一场激烈的争吵。

My back was to the wall.

我的背靠着墙。

They were screaming in my face.

他们当着我的面尖叫。

I said, “Yes, the Rolling Stones are sexist, but they made great music.” They go, “Oh, no, no, no!”

我说：“是的，滚石乐队有性别歧视，但他们创作了很棒的音乐。”他们说：“哦，不，不，不！”

I said, “All right, let’s take ‘Under My Thumb.’ ‘Under My Thumb,’ yes, it’s sexist, but it’s a great song.

我说：“好吧，让我们来听《Under My Thumb》吧。《Under My Thumb》，是的，它是性别歧视的，但它是一首很棒的歌。

It’s a work of art.” These women, they said to me, they said, “Art!

这是一件艺术品。”这些女人，她们对我说，“艺术！

Art!

艺术！

Nothing that demeans women can be art!” Now that is a Stalinist view of art!

任何贬低女性的东西都不能成为艺术！”这就是斯大林主义的艺术观！

I thought, “Well, they’re feminist.

我想：“好吧，他们是女权主义者。

I’m feminist.

我是女权主义者。

OK.

好的。

All right.” We had a dinner.

好吧。”我们共进晚餐。

We were going to go to a lecture, and so on.

我们要去听讲座等等。

We didn’t get through to dessert.

我们没有吃到甜点。

Let me tell you about that dinner.

让我告诉你那顿晚餐的事。

Because we had this screaming argument about hormones.

因为我们对荷尔蒙有过激烈的争论。

They deny that hormones have the slightest impact on human life.

他们否认荷尔蒙对人类生命有丝毫影响。

They said hormones don’t even exist.

他们说荷尔蒙根本不存在。

They told me I had been brainwashed by male scientists to believe — these are women who are in the English department.

他们告诉我，我被男性科学家洗脑，让我相信“这些是英语系的女性”。

Wonderful education they had in biology.

他们在生物学方面接受了很好的教育。

At any rate, Amelia Earhart — .

无论如何，阿米莉亚·埃尔哈特 —— 。

What was it?

那是什么？

They put a picture of Amelia Earhart there.

他们在那里放了一张阿米莉亚埃尔哈特的照片。

It was Valentina Tereshkova had become the first women in space.

瓦莲京娜·捷列什科娃（Valentina Tereshkova）成为第一位进入太空的女性。

The Soviet Union had sent her up.

苏联派她上来的。

I wrote a protest letter into Newsweek and I said, “That Valentina Tereshkova, the cosmonaut, has became the first woman to be — on the anniversary that Amelia Earhart flew the ocean,” whatever it was.

我给《新闻周刊》写了一封抗议信，我说：“在阿米莉亚·埃尔哈特飞越海洋的周年纪念日，宇航员瓦伦蒂娜·捷列什科娃（Valentina Tereshkova）成为了第一位女性宇航员”，不管它是什么。

It was some big anniversary.

这是一个重要的周年纪念日。

I said, “Obviously, Amelia Earhart’s lifelong fight for equal opportunity for American women remains to be won.” That’s 1963.

我说：“显然，阿米莉亚·埃尔哈特一生为美国女性争取平等机会的斗争仍有待胜利。”那是1963年。

Gloria Steinem can lick dirt, as far as I’m concerned.

就我而言，格洛丽亚·斯泰纳姆可以舔土。

When I was doing that, Gloria Steinem was running around New York in a plastic skirt, I’m telling you.

我告诉你，当我这样做时，格洛丽亚·斯泰纳姆正穿着塑料裙子在纽约跑来跑去。

She’s a fraud, that woman.

那个女人，她是个骗子。

A fraud.

一场骗局。

On Camille’s lifestyle of observation

论卡米尔的观察生活方式

I feel that the basis of my work is not only the care I take with writing, with my quality controls, my prose, but also my observation.

我觉得我工作的基础不仅是我对写作、质量控制、散文的细心，还有我的观察。

It’s 24/7.

现在是 24/7。

I’m always observing.

我一直在观察。

I don’t sit in a university.

我没有坐在大学里。

I never go to conferences.

我从不参加会议。

That is a terrible mistake.

这是一个可怕的错误。

A conference is like overlaying the same insular ideology on top of it.

一场会议就像是在其之上叠加了同样的孤立意识形态。

I am always listening to conversations at the shopping mall.

我总是在商场里听谈话。

It’s fantastic.

太棒了。

My writer’s voice is actually very — rather than these novelists with their recherché lingo and so on — my actual writing voice is very influenced by the way English is spoken today by people and often men on radio.

我的作家的声音实际上非常“——而不是那些小说家用他们的recherché行话等等”——“我实际的写作声音很大程度上受到当今人们（通常是广播中的男人）说英语的方式的影响。

You get this high impact sound, you see.

你会听到这种高冲击力的声音，你看。

On lamb vindaloo, LSD, and other mental stimulants

食用咖喱羊肉、LSD 和其他精神兴奋剂

All I know is it’s like an ecstasy for me, the lamb vindaloo.

All I know is it’s like an ecstasy for me, the lamb vindaloo.

It’s a 40-year rut.

这是40年的惯例。

Every time I go to an Indian restaurant, I say “Now, I’m going to try something new.” But, no, I must go back to the lamb vindaloo.

Every time I go to an Indian restaurant, I say “Now, I’m going to try something new.”但是，不，我必须回到咖喱羊肉。

All I know is it’s like an ecstasy for me, the lamb vindaloo.

All I know is it’s like an ecstasy for me, the lamb vindaloo.

Everyone who says that, I feel, actually never attained the level of accomplishment that they should have in terms of whatever their vision had been.

我认为，每个说这句话的人实际上从未达到他们应有的成就水平，无论他们的愿景是什么。

I think LSD gave vision.

我认为 LSD 赋予了视力。

It gave vision, but then it deprived people of the ability to translate that vision into material form for the present and for posterity.

It gave vision, but then it deprived people of the ability to translate that vision into material form for the present and for posterity.

But I still remain very oriented toward the LSD vision.

但我仍然非常倾向于 LSD 的愿景。

I feel I took LSD because I have the music.

我觉得我服用LSD是因为我有音乐。

With “Bathing at Baxter’s,” Jefferson Airplane, the first people to be using like this.

With “Bathing at Baxter’s,” Jefferson Airplane, the first people to be using like this.

Distortions of The Byrds, “Eight Miles High,” I adore that song.

Distortions of The Byrds, “Eight Miles High,” I adore that song.

I feel I’m in that psychedelic world.

我感觉自己正处在那个迷幻的世界里。

I’ve sometimes said that what I do is psychedelic criticism.

我有时会说我所做的就是迷幻的批评。

Because it is metaphysical, it is visionary.

因为它是形而上的，所以它是有远见的。

I have a vision.

我有一个愿景。

I have a vision that’s bigger than society.

我有一个比社会更大的愿景。

That’s the problem with the Marxist approach.

这就是马克思主义方法的问题。

I believe the Marxist approach is useful.

我相信马克思主义的方法是有用的。

Arnold Hauser’s one of the great — The Social History of Art is one of the most influential things on me.

Arnold Hauser’s one of the great — The Social History of Art is one of the most influential things on me.

It’s a Marxist perspective.

这是马克思主义的观点。

Indeed, my work is always very attentive to the social context of anything.

事实上，我的作品总是非常关注任何事物的社会背景。

But what Marxism lacks is that larger vision of the universe.

但马克思主义缺乏的是更大的宇宙视野。

There are all kinds of questions and issues about human life that Marxism has no answers for.

关于人类生活的各种疑问和议题是马克思主义无法回答的。

It doesn’t even see it.

它甚至没有看到它。

It doesn’t see nature.

它看不到自然。

What kind of a vision doesn’t see nature, could only see society?

What kind of a vision doesn’t see nature, could only see society?

This is what’s happening.

这就是正在发生的事情。

We have all these graduates of the elite schools, whereas my generation was all into cosmic consciousness and opening — we were influenced by Hinduism, Buddhism, and all kinds of Eastern — .

我们这些都是精英学校的毕业生，而我们这一代人都是宇宙意识和开放的——我们受到印度教、佛教和各种东方文化的影响——。

I feel that is the true multiculturalism.

我觉得这才是真正的多元文化。

I’ve been arguing for that for 25 years.

我为此争论了 25 年。

I’ve been saying that if you want true multiculturalism, you have to present world cultures, including religion.

我一直在说，如果你想要真正的多元文化主义，你就必须呈现世界文化，包括宗教。

Religion is extremely important — the most complex systems human beings have ever devised were the great religions of the world.

宗教极其重要——人类所设计的最复杂的系统就是世界上伟大的宗教。

I’m trying to think who has written a serious book I’m interested in right now.

我正在思考谁写了一本我现在感兴趣的严肃的书。

Listen, there’s no one I would say, “Oh, so-and-so’s book is coming.” What?

听着，我不会有人说：“哦，某某的书要出版了。”什么？

They’re dead.

他们死了。

The people who I admire are long dead.

我敬佩的人早已去世。

Unfortunately, it’s a terrible destruction.

不幸的是，这是一次可怕的破坏。

My work looks very strange and idiosyncratic because I’m alone.

我的作品看起来非常奇怪和独特，因为我独自一人。

I’m alone and all the people who should have been writing interesting, quirky books, as I do, are dead or their brains were destroyed by LSD.

我孤身一人，所有应该像我一样写出有趣、古怪的书的人都死了，或者他们的大脑被LSD摧毁了。

It’s one or the other.

这是其中之一或另一个。

I knew so many, to me, brilliant minds in graduate school and early in my teaching career at Bennington College, really brilliant minds.

对我来说，我在研究生院和本宁顿学院教学生涯的早期认识了很多才华横溢的人，非常聪明的人。

I had great hopes for them and for what they would do.

我对他们以及他们将要做的事情抱有很大的希望。

Then they couldn’t get anything done.

然后他们什么也做不了。

For whatever reason, they couldn’t.

不管出于什么原因，他们不能。

They didn’t have the — I don’t know what.

他们没有——我不知道是什么。

They didn’t have the resilience to continue against obstacles.

他们没有能力继续克服障碍。

When their work would get rejected, they would become discouraged and would stop.

当他们的工作被拒绝时，他们就会灰心丧气并停下来。

Rejection simply infuriates me.

拒绝只会激怒我。

I’ll say, “Well, I’ll have my revenge on you in the afterlife.” I’ll be around, and you’ll be dead.

我会说：“好吧，我会在来世为你报仇。”我会在身边，而你就会死。

I don’t know, it’s an Italian thing.

我不知道，这是意大利的事情。

What can I say?

我能说什么？

I should say that the push of countries like Greece and Egypt to recover their masterpieces from where they were taken and scattered around the world, I think with what’s been happening with ISIS, and the demolition of Palmyra and all kinds of things that have happened, my attitude now is keep Nefertiti in Berlin, please.

我应该说，像希腊和埃及这样的国家努力从他们被夺走并散布在世界各地的杰作中恢复它们的杰作，我认为随着伊斯兰国发生的事情，以及帕尔米拉的拆除和发生的各种事情，我现在的态度是请把纳芙蒂蒂留在柏林。

Don’t send it back to Cairo.

不要将其寄回开罗。

I didn’t have much time.

我没有太多时间。

She invited me to go to the ranch and see all the animals and the lions that she collected and so on.

她邀请我去牧场，看看她收集的所有动物和狮子等等。

Suzanne Pleshette, I think, was absolutely underutilized by Hollywood.

我认为，苏珊娜·普莱薛特绝对没有被好莱坞充分利用。

What an intelligent — she’s this knife-sharp character, she was.

多么聪明啊——她是一个锋利的人物，她就是。

In fact, I recently, in one of my Salon columns, compared her to Lena Dunham — is, oh — .

事实上，我最近在我的沙龙专栏中将她与莉娜邓纳姆（Lena Dunham）进行了比较——是，哦—— 。

Can I say a word about this?

我能就此说几句话吗？

There wasn’t a lot of theory.

没有太多理论。

I wasn’t citing, you know, the male gaze, and et cetera, et cetera.

我并没有引用，你知道，男性的目光等等。

All this book does is go through the film The Birds from beginning to end, scene by scene by scene, and pays attention to the film itself.

这本书所做的就是从头到尾逐个场景地回顾电影《鸟儿》，并关注电影本身。

Slowly it’s made its way.

慢慢地它就出来了。

Now here it is.

现在就在这里。

It was 1998 when that came out, and it’s starting to happen now.

这是 1998 年的事情，现在已经开始发生了。

Routledge is a publisher that’s done nothing but this theory stuff.

劳特利奇是一家除了理论之外什么也没做的出版商。

They’re starting to go, “Hmm.

他们开始说：“嗯。

Maybe there was something in her — ,” I’m hoping.

也许她身上有某种东西 —— ，”我希望。

I’m just trying to inspire graduate students to rebel against this horrible fascism that forces theory onto them before they expose themselves to everything that’s wonderful and imaginative in the history of literature and art.

我只是想激励研究生反抗这种可怕的法西斯主义，这种法西斯主义在他们接触文学和艺术史上一切精彩和富有想象力的事物之前，将理论强加给他们。

I believe that paying minute attention to the actual work itself is the mission of criticism.

我认为，关注实际工作本身就是批评的使命。

I am hopelessly old-fashioned.

我无可救药地守旧了。

Because that’s not what you’re supposed to do.

因为那不是你应该做的。

You’re supposed to mention Foucault 59 times in one paragraph, et cetera.

你应该在一个段落中提到福柯 59 次，等等。

You have all these people thinking Foucault was some sort of innovative figure in the history of modern sociology or intellect, and he wasn’t.

所有这些人都认为福柯是现代社会学或智力史上的某种创新人物，但他不是。

It is a disease in these people.

这是这些人的一种疾病。

Everywhere, every single university in the United States, every single gender studies department, they’re impregnated with Foucault.

美国的每一所大学、每一个性别研究部门都充满了福柯的思想。

That’s why we have graduates who know nothing.

这就是为什么我们的毕业生一无所知。

On the simple life

关于简单的生活

I just try to keep to reality.

我只是尽力保持现实。

Because I know that the basis of my work is the closeness with which I live to ordinary life.

因为我知道我的工作的基础是我与日常生活的贴近。

I hate the elites.

我讨厌精英。

I hate parties.

我讨厌聚会。

I don’t have any book parties or anything like that.

我没有举办任何读书会或类似的活动。

PAGLIA: I think that people, they want success and they want material advantages and so on.

帕格利亚：我认为人们想要成功，想要物质优势等等。

Being a writer is just scut work.

成为一名作家只是一件枯燥的工作。

Being a teacher, that’s what Susan Sontag also did wrong.

作为一名教师，苏珊·桑塔格也做错了。

Susan Sontag began in graduate school.

苏珊·桑塔格开始读研究生。

“Oh, it’s so boring.” She did a little teaching and then went off and became a luminary.

“哦，真是无聊啊。”她做了一些教学，然后就成为了一位名人。

She was a big luminary, a big giant dirigible luminary her whole life.

她一生都是一位伟大的杰出人物，一位巨大的飞船杰出人物。

People who go to dinner parties to impress other people, it is such BS.

那些去参加晚宴是为了给别人留下深刻印象的人，简直就是废话。

Susan Sontag over time, her work got less and less meaningful, even though people worship at the shrine of Sontag.

随着时间的推移，苏珊·桑塔格的作品变得越来越没有意义，尽管人们在桑塔格的神殿里崇拜。

You try to quote her on anything.

你试图引用她的话。

What can you quote her on?

你能引用她的话吗？

There’s nothing important.

没什么重要的。

The one thing you can quote her on — .

你可以引用她的一件事 —— 。

I think the best thing she did probably was for me, she wrote a very witty thing, “The Imagination of Disaster.” I like that essay a lot, which is all about the horror films of the 1950s.

我想她做的最好的事情可能是为了我，她写了一篇非常诙谐的文章，《灾难的想象》。我很喜欢那篇文章，内容都是关于 20 世纪 50 年代的恐怖电影。

I thought if she only had stayed like that, unpretentious and really engaging with actual materials.

我想如果她一直保持这样，朴实无华，真正参与实际材料就好了。

But Susan Sontag, basically her life became going from lecture to lecture, being hailed as the Great One, and being so detached from ordinary life.

但苏珊·桑塔格，基本上她的生活变成了一场又一场的演讲，被誉为伟人，与平凡的生活如此超脱。

Whereas, when you’re a teacher, like a classroom teacher, as I’ve been for 40 years, the kids have no idea that I write books.

然而，当你是一名老师，就像一名课堂老师，就像我 40 年来那样，孩子们并不知道我写书。

Now and then, someone’s father will say, “She writes books,” and they’ll come and say, “My father is a fan of yours.” “Oh, really?

有时，某人的父亲会说：“她写书”，然后他们会过来说：“我父亲是你的粉丝。” “哦，真的吗？

That’s so nice,” I’ll say.

那太好了，”我会说。

Anyway, the point is all these professors at Harvard and Princeton and Yale, they have the graduate students are paying court to them, because they need letters of recommendations.

不管怎样，关键是哈佛、普林斯顿和耶鲁大学的所有这些教授，他们的研究生都在向他们讨好，因为他们需要推荐信。

Hello, they want something from you.

你好，他们想从你这里得到一些东西。

They’re so used to “They’re so grand” and so on.

他们已经习惯了“他们太伟大了”等等。

I go in, and it’s like, “We need more chairs.” “What’s wrong?” “The curtain is wrong.” I’m always in touch with the janitors, infrastructure, condition of the buildings.

我走进去，感觉就像是，“我们需要更多椅子。” “怎么了？” “窗帘错了。”我始终与看门人、基础设施和建筑物的状况保持联系。

I deal with everyday life.

我处理日常生活。

I’m not treated like a queen.

我没有被当作女王对待。

I’m just like an ordinary schoolmarm working like a horse, pulling the plow.

我就像一个普通的女教师，像马一样拉着犁。

I think that’s a really good idea for writers is to have a job where you’re dealing with constant frustrations, and problems, and so on.

我认为对于作家来说这是一个非常好的主意，那就是拥有一份不断处理挫折和问题等的工作。

I think that’s really good for you.

我认为这对你来说真的很好。

Get a job.

找份工作。

Have a job.

有工作。

Again, that’s the real job.

再说一遍，这才是真正的工作。

Every time you have frustrations with the real job, you say, “This is good.” This is good, because this is reality.

每当你在实际工作中遇到挫折时，你都会说：“这很好。”这很好，因为这就是现实。

This is reality as everybody lives it.

这是现实，每个人都生活在其中。

This thing of withdrawing from the world to be a writer, I think, is a terrible mistake.

我认为，为了成为一名作家而退出这个世界是一个可怕的错误。

Number one thing is constantly observing.

第一件事是不断观察。

My whole life, I’m constantly jotting things down.

我一生都在不断地记下事情。

Constantly.

不断地。

Just jot, jot, jot, jot.

只是记下，记下，记下，记下。

I’ll have an idea.

我有一个主意。

I’m cooking, and I have an idea, “Whoa, whoa.” I have a lot of pieces of paper with tomato sauce on them or whatever.

我正在做饭，我有一个想法，“哇，哇。”我有很多纸片，上面涂有番茄酱或其他什么东西。

I transfer these to cards or I transfer them to notes.

我将它们转移到卡片上或将它们转移到笔记上。

I’m just constantly open.

我只是一直保持开放。

Everything’s on all the time.

一切都一直在进行。

I never say, “This is important.

我从不说：“这很重要。

This is not important.” That’s why I got into popular culture at a time when popular culture was — .

这并不重要。”这就是为什么我在流行文化处于 - 的时代进入流行文化。

In fact, there’s absolutely no doubt that at Yale Graduate School, I lost huge credibility with the professors because of my endorsement of not only film but Hollywood.

事实上，毫无疑问，在耶鲁大学研究生院，我失去了教授们的巨大信誉，因为我不仅支持电影，还支持好莱坞。

When Hollywood was considered crass entertainment and so on.

当好莱坞被认为是粗俗的娱乐等等。

Now, the media studies came in very strongly after that, although highly theoretical.

现在，媒体研究在那之后出现得非常强烈，尽管其理论性很强。

Not the way I teach media studies.

这不是我教授媒体研究的方式。

I also believe in following your own instincts and intuition, like there’s something meaningful here.

我也相信遵循自己的直觉和直觉，就像这里有一些有意义的东西一样。

You don’t know what it is, but you just keep it on the back burner.

你不知道它是什么，但你只是把它放在次要位置。

That’s basically how I work is this, the constant observation.

这基本上就是我的工作方式，不断观察。

Also, I try to tell my students, they never get the message really, but what I try to say to them is nothing is boring.

另外，我试图告诉我的学生，他们从来没有真正理解这一信息，但我试图对他们说的是没有什么是无聊的。

Nothing is boring.

没有什么是无聊的。

If you’re bored, you’re boring.

如果你无聊，你就无聊。

I think there’s really no experience that you can have that there’s not something in there that eventually you can’t use as a part of your developing system.

我认为你确实没有任何经验可以证明其中没有最终不能用作开发系统的一部分的东西。

Another thing I have to say, anyone interested in ideas, do not read any of the current books like Pierre Bourdieu and all that stuff.

我不得不说的另一件事是，任何对思想感兴趣的人都不要阅读任何当前的书籍，例如皮埃尔·布迪厄（Pierre Bourdieu）之类的东西。

Oh my God, it’s so incomplete.

天哪，这太不完整了。

It’s really boring.

真的很无聊。

I believe in the library.

我相信图书馆。

The library is my shrine.

图书馆就是我的圣地。

It was my shrine when I was researching Amelia Earhart.

当我研究阿米莉亚埃尔哈特时，这是我的神殿。

When I got to Yale, Sterling Library was my shrine.

当我到达耶鲁时，斯特林图书馆就是我的圣地。

I ransacked that building, oh my God.

我洗劫了那栋大楼，天哪。

That’s the thing, is that I’ve learned more from the old commentators.

事情就是这样，我从老评论员那里学到了更多。

James George Frazer, The Golden Bough, which was considered completely gone but had a huge impact on “The Waste Land” and other works of modernism.

詹姆斯·乔治·弗雷泽的《金枝》被认为已经完全消失，但对《荒原》和其他现代主义作品产生了巨大影响。

I’ve learned a great deal from the commentators of the past, the historians of the past.

我从过去的评论家、过去的历史学家那里学到了很多东西。

Now, when I did Glittering Images, the actual nullity of current scholarship became very exposed to me.

现在，当我拍摄《闪闪发光的图像》时，我清楚地看到了当前学术研究的实际无效性。

Of course, I already knew about it, but I really got objective proof of it.

当然，我已经知道了，但我确实得到了客观的证明。

There’s 29 chapters in it.

全书共有29章。

Each artwork that I chose, I did a full research of what had been said about that particular artwork, so I began chronologically.

我选择的每件艺术品，我都会对有关该特定艺术品的评论进行全面研究，所以我按时间顺序开始。

I would work, if it was an older work from the late 19th century, moving through the decades to the present.

如果这是一部 19 世纪末的老作品，跨越几十年一直到现在，我就会创作。

There, oh my God, could you see it, could you see the fall in the quality of scholarship in our time from the 1980s on.

天哪，你能看到吗，你能看到我们这个时代从 20 世纪 80 年代以来学术质量的下降吗？

I would move from these incredibly erudite and wonderful sentences, beautiful stylus about art, late 19th century moving into the 20th century.

我将从这些令人难以置信的博学和美妙的句子，关于艺术的美丽笔触，从19世纪末进入20世纪。

Still solid into about the ’60s.

到 60 年代左右仍然如此。

And then the ’70s is kind of holding there.

然后 70 年代就在那里了。

All of a sudden comes the ’80s, ’90s, 2000s.

突然间，80年代、90年代、2000年代到来了。

All these people are pygmies.

所有这些人都是俾格米人。

Pygmies, the people at the elite schools.

俾格米人，精英学校里的人。

Let me say, the big art survey courses are being dismantled.

我说，大型艺术调查课程正在被拆除。

Hello?

你好？

It used to be you had a two-semester course.

过去你有两个学期的课程。

It would begin with cave art and move, in two semesters, down to modernism.

它将从洞穴艺术开始，并在两个学期内转向现代主义。

Magnificent structure, now abandoned wholesale except when students have protested, like at Smith.

宏伟的建筑，现在被大规模废弃，除非学生抗议，比如史密斯学院。

My sister is a graduate of Smith, and was part of the protest that got the survey restored.

我姐姐是史密斯学院的毕业生，也是恢复调查的抗议活动的一部分。

Graduate students in art history and art historians no longer have the ability to teach the big picture, because all narratives are regarded as fictional now, imperialistic fictions.

艺术史研究生和艺术史学家不再有能力教授大局，因为所有叙述现在都被视为虚构，帝国主义虚构。

The entire story of art is not possible, and therefore, people know nothing.

艺术的全部故事是不可能的，因此，人们一无所知。

You saying something to the effect of, “I teach in a skirt, because I have more control over the classroom that way.”

你说的话大意是“我穿着裙子教课，因为这样我可以更好地控制课堂。”

It’s really shocking.

真是令人震惊。

Here is a woman, a middle-aged woman at that point, I’m in my 40s, who had spent 20 years writing a book that had been rejected, and finally was published by Yale Press.

这是一个女人，当时是个中年女人，我40多岁了，她花了20年写了一本书，一直被拒绝，最后被耶鲁出版社出版了。

A book on the whole history of the Western civilization, and this is the treatment that I got at Smith College?

一本关于整个西方文明史的书，这就是我在史密斯学院得到的待遇？

This is one of the bastions of the Seven Sisters, one of the most noble names in the history of modern women’s education.

这是七姐妹的堡垒之一，是现代女子教育史上最崇高的名字之一。

That just shows you how ideology really is very distorting.

这只是向你展示了意识形态确实是多么扭曲。

Feminism is going through phases.

女权主义正在经历几个阶段。

I call myself a feminist, absolutely.

我绝对称自己为女权主义者。

I simply belong to a dissident wing of feminism, and I think that the error made by all these people was not to understand that my wing of feminism had been suppressed and silenced at that point for 25 years.

我只是属于持不同政见的女权主义派系，我认为所有这些人所犯的错误是没有理解我的女权主义派系在那时已经被压制和沉默了25年。

Eventually, we won in the ’90s, the pro-sex wing of feminism, thanks to Madonna, who wasn’t a feminist.

最终，我们在 90 年代赢得了女权主义中支持性的一方的胜利，这要感谢麦当娜，她不是女权主义者。

But because of Madonna’s foregrounding of sexual themes and so on, it allowed us to break through the over-control by the Steinem politburo at that time.

但由于麦当娜对性题材的突出等等，让我们突破了当时斯泰纳姆政治局的过度控制。

You also mentioned in that interview that obsession and genius are pretty much the same thing, so where would you draw the line between — say you have an opportunity to meet someone who’s very important to you, or contrive a meeting, or just seek them out.

你在那次采访中还提到，痴迷和天才几乎是同一件事，那么你会在哪里划清界限 ——假设你有机会见到对你来说非常重要的人，或者策划一次会面，或者只是找到他们。

Where do you draw the line between the obsession, and I mean the Paglia kind of obsession, not the John Hinckley kind — .

你如何在痴迷之间划清界限，我指的是帕格利亚式的痴迷，而不是约翰·欣克利式的 —— 。

I’ve been working in art schools also my entire career, so I know.

我的整个职业生涯都在艺术学校工作，所以我知道。

I have dancers in my class.

我班上有舞者。

I have actors in my class, and I completely understand the difference between the fallible real self, the mundane real self, and the artistic self suddenly emerges within what I call the temenos, which is the sacred precinct that I regard as art.

我的班上有演员，我完全理解容易犯错的真实自我、世俗的真实自我和艺术自我之间的区别，突然出现在我所谓的“temenos”中，这是我认为艺术的神圣领域。

Therefore, when I encountered Catherine Deneuve by accident that day, and I was at the peak of my obsession with her, it really almost ruined my interest in her, because it’s like, “Oh, my God.” It’s not the real Catherine Deneuve that I was so intent on.

因此，当我那天偶然遇到凯瑟琳·德纳芙，而我对她的痴迷正值巅峰时，真的差点毁了我对她的兴趣，因为这就像，“哦，我的上帝。”这不是我真正想要的凯瑟琳·德纳芙。

It was this magical creation that is a result of her talent, but also of the director’s own magical skills, and so on.

正是这种神奇的创作，既有她的才华，也有导演自身的神奇技巧等等。

Oh, yes, Elizabeth Taylor, I have 599 pictures, yes.

哦，是的，伊丽莎白·泰勒，我有 599 张照片，是的。

People often say what’s odd about that is not the number, but that I had counted them.

人们常说奇怪的不是数字，而是我数过它们了。

Oh, yes, Elizabeth Taylor, I have 599 pictures, yes.

哦，是的，伊丽莎白·泰勒，我有 599 张照片，是的。

People often say what’s odd about that is not the number, but that I had counted them.

人们常说奇怪的不是数字，而是我数过它们了。

There were so many phenomenal images that I was inundated with when I was in high school and college, and what do these kids have today?

当我在高中和大学时，有太多惊人的图像淹没了我，而这些孩子今天拥有什么？

Taylor Swift?

泰勒·斯威夫特？

Oh, my God.

我的天啊。

She is such a fake.

她真是太假了。

She poses in things that she imagines are sexy and sultry, and it’s so fake.

她摆出她想象中性感又撩人的姿势，但其实很假。

Awful, awful, awful.

可怕，可怕，可怕。

At least Rihanna, who’s on dope most of the time, and that’s why she looks so sultry, but — .

至少蕾哈娜，她大部分时间都在吸毒，这就是为什么她看起来如此性感，但是 —— 。

I want to get into my next essay collection, but with Bowie, see, Bowie is different than Deneuve.

我想进入我的下一本散文集，但是有了鲍伊，你看，鲍伊与德纳芙不同。

Bowie is truly like a creative artist, whereas Deneuve and Taylor are performers in other people’s fictions.

鲍伊确实像一位富有创造力的艺术家，而德纳芙和泰勒则是其他人小说中的表演者。

But Bowie was truly a master creator of a level that just is staggering.

But Bowie was truly a master creator of a level that just is staggering.

When I did the research for that essay, I knocked out all over again at the enormity of what he achieved, and also at how little has been acknowledged, his deep knowledge of the visual arts, and how he had been influenced by that.

当我为那篇文章做研究时，我再次震惊于他所取得的巨大成就，也震惊于他对视觉艺术的深厚知识以及他如何受到视觉艺术的影响，而得到的认可是多么的少。

I found all kinds of little details that showed his deep knowledge, his erudition about that.

I found all kinds of little details that showed his deep knowledge, his erudition about that.

It appears to be that he did tell the V&A to invite me.

看来他确实告诉 V&A 邀请我了。

That time, people don’t know.

那个时候，人们并不知道。

What you’re talking about is where — it was earlier in the 1990s, and a message came to my publisher saying — and it was conveyed to me by the publicist and my publisher — saying, “David Bowie wants your phone number,” and I burst out laughing.

你说的是——那是在 20 世纪 90 年代初期，我的出版商收到一条消息说：“公关人员和我的出版商转达给了我——”说，“大卫·鲍伊想要你的电话号码，”我突然大笑起来。

Only now, only after I did the research for this Victoria and Albert thing, did I realize that the reason it was so strange was that he had fired his entire staff.

直到现在，直到我对维多利亚和阿尔伯特这件事进行了研究之后，我才意识到这件事之所以如此奇怪，是因为他解雇了所有员工。

He had fired his management.

他解雇了他的管理层。

He had fired his company, and dealing with the record companies and so on after Berlin, and he only dealt with the world via friends.

He had fired his company, and dealing with the record companies and so on after Berlin, and he only dealt with the world via friends.

That’s what was so strange about it.

这就是它的奇怪之处。

It was strange.

很奇怪。

I made a mistake.

我犯了一个错误。

What he wanted was he wanted to use an excerpt from Sexual Personae on a record album in one of his lyrics.

What he wanted was he wanted to use an excerpt from Sexual Personae on a record album in one of his lyrics.

I’m like, “Oh, my God.” It’s very embarrassing that that happened, but that’s OK.

我就像，“哦，我的上帝。”发生这种事非常尴尬，但没关系。

I think there should be a distance, or a sense of respect and reserve, with great artists.

I think there should be a distance, or a sense of respect and reserve, with great artists.

I’ve been thinking about it a lot, and it seems to me that it boils down to a problem of culture, to the extent that, for example, Mark Zuckerberg publicizing taking paternity leave does more to alleviate the pay disparity problem that we have than either companies or governments setting a policy.

我一直在思考这个问题，在我看来，这可以归结为一个文化问题，例如，马克·扎克伯格宣传休陪产假比公司或政府制定政策更能缓解我们面临的薪酬差距问题。

Because to the extent that the demand for flexibility, to have children and care for children is only used by women, it’s going to hurt us on the margin when it comes to pay.

因为在某种程度上，对灵活性、生孩子和照顾孩子的需求只有女性才会使用，所以在支付方面，这会在一定程度上损害我们的利益。

Since you’re such a great and incisive social critic, I just wanted to get your thoughts on that.

Since you’re such a great and incisive social critic, I just wanted to get your thoughts on that.

There may be cases of outrageous disparity in pay for doing the same work.

There may be cases of outrageous disparity in pay for doing the same work.

Now and then, they’ll find something like in a hospital, a woman doctor, a veteran doctor who’s not being paid the same level.

Now and then, they’ll find something like in a hospital, a woman doctor, a veteran doctor who’s not being paid the same level.

But it’s rare when these actual cases do surface.

But it’s rare when these actual cases do surface.

There’s all this propaganda being pumped out about this issue, when in fact, women are not — if women are earning 72 cents or 75 cents on the dollar, it’s not for the same job.

关于这个问题的宣传层出不穷，但事实上，女性并非如此——如果女性的收入为 72 美分或 75 美分，那么她们从事的工作就不是同样的工作。

This is the lie that’s being told.

这就是人们所说的谎言。

Women doing the same job as a man are not being paid 75 cents for something that the man is being paid a dollar.

Women doing the same job as a man are not being paid 75 cents for something that the man is being paid a dollar.

What it is, is overall, the averages of women, of their own volition, for whatever reasons, are taking jobs that have more flexibility as opposed to the around-the-clock, seven days a week, night thing.

总体而言，女性平均出于自愿，无论出于何种原因，都会从事更具灵活性的工作，而不是全天候、每周 7 天、晚上工作。

For example, women tend to shy away from commission sales jobs where they’re on the road a lot, and that is where a lot of men have very high earnings.

例如，女性往往会回避经常出差的佣金销售工作，而这正是许多男性收入很高的工作。

Women are making choices, and they would prefer to be closer to their children, so yes.

Women are making choices, and they would prefer to be closer to their children, so yes.

These disparities are ultimately based in biological differences.

These disparities are ultimately based in biological differences.

Susan Faludi and these other feminists of the Steinem kind of credo have one answer.

苏珊·法鲁迪和其他持斯泰纳姆信条的女权主义者有一个答案。

Men must do more.

男人必须做得更多。

That’s their answer.

这就是他们的答案。

Men must do more.

男人必须做得更多。

Susan Faludi has never had a child, so has absolutely no idea.

苏珊·法鲁迪从未生过孩子，所以完全不知道。

What I feel is that there is a tie.

我的感觉是有一个平局。

There is an ineffable, indefinable, biological tie between a child and the mother in whose body the child has developed into a full being, and there are all kinds of impulses and instincts that women may have of protectiveness toward their biologically born children.

孩子和母亲之间存在着一种不可言喻、无法定义的生物联系，孩子在母亲的体内发育成一个完整的存在，并且妇女可能对自己亲生的孩子有各种保护的冲动和本能。

I think that to politicize the thing, and to assume that a woman bearing a child is like an automaton, “Yes, here is the baby.

我认为将这件事政治化，并假设一个生孩子的女人就像一个机器人，“是的，这是婴儿。

Here, to my husband, you are equally fit to be able to nurture this three-month-old child.”

在这里，对我丈夫来说，你同样适合抚养这个三个月大的孩子。”

As a child gets a little older and turns into a real human being with a personality and so on, it’s not so dependent, then is when men can do more.

当孩子长大一点，变成一个真正的人，有个性等等，就不那么依赖了，那时男人就可以做更多的事情了。

I believe personally, from my observation of human life, that there is something going on.

从我对人类生活的观察来看，我个人相信有些事情正在发生。

An infant doesn’t want the father, hello.

婴儿不需要父亲，你好。

The infant wants the mother.

婴儿想要母亲。

You want the nice, cushy — the smell is the mother.

你想要美好、舒适的味道——那是母亲的味道。

“Who is this person coming closer?

“这个靠近的人是谁？

Go away.” Freud talked about that.

走开吧。”弗洛伊德曾谈到过这一点。

This distraction comes in, the father.

这种干扰进来了，父亲。

“Get out.” Remember?

“出去。”记住？

She is the generalissimo of the household.

她是家里的大元帅。

The man, her husband, who was lasonce her equal, shrinks down to merely one counter.

那个男人，也就是她的丈夫，原本与她平起平坐，却缩小到只有一个柜台。

Nick Donner Photography

尼克·唐纳摄影

To ask men to do more, seems to me to ask them to do something that they are not biologically prepared to do.

在我看来，要求男人做更多的事情，似乎是要求他们做一些他们在生物学上不准备做的事情。

The way they communicate with each other and the email format now in text is very truncated, and it’s why the writing on the web has also degenerated horribly.

他们相互交流的方式以及现在的电子邮件格式都被大大缩短了，这就是为什么网络上的文字也严重退化的原因。

The writing for blogs is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but no one has — .

博客的写作是废话、废话、废话、废话、废话、废话，但没有人有 — 。

It used to be with newspapers and magazines, there was a space limit, and that imposed a real kind of format.

过去是报纸和杂志，有空间限制，这就强加了一种真正的格式。

It forced you to condense, and it gave a crispness to language.

它迫使你凝练，并赋予语言清脆的感觉。

We’re in a period now, I’m afraid that the ear for language is degenerating.

我们现在正处于一个语言耳朵正在退化的时期。

What I’m also saying is that there are huge areas of human life that are not political that have to do with our private spiritual nature, and that is a place where legislation will always be helpless and hopeless and indeed, intrusive, so I think that feminism has made enormous gains in terms of — there was a time that women were totally dependent on father, on husband, on brother, for their survival.

我还想说的是，人类生活中有很多与政治无关的领域与我们私人的精神本质有关，而在这个领域，立法永远是无助和无望的，甚至是侵入性的，所以我认为女权主义在以下方面取得了巨大的进步：曾经有一段时间，妇女完全依赖父亲、丈夫、兄弟来生存。

Now, women can be self-supporting, can live totally on their own.

现在，女性可以自力更生，可以完全独立生活。

It’s part of this whole Western world powered by capitalism that our university curricula are now habitually always demeaning.

这是由资本主义驱动的整个西方世界的一部分，我们的大学课程现在总是习惯性地贬低它。

Capitalism made women’s emancipation possible.

资本主义使妇女解放成为可能。

I think that the problem right now is that young women have been taught that to somehow identify their own sense of personal unhappiness with men, and men are responsible for our unhappiness, when in fact, part of the issue is that we have lived as a species for tens of thousands of year, where mating occurred early, where you left your parents’ house, and had your own household, and your own children.

我认为现在的问题是，年轻女性被教导要以某种方式识别自己对男性的个人不幸福感，而男性要为我们的不幸福负责，而事实上，部分问题在于我们作为一个物种生活了数万年，交配发生得很早，你离开了父母的房子，拥有了自己的家庭和自己的孩子。

Juliet, in Romeo and Juliet, is 13 going on 14, and already, she’s ready for marriage.

《罗密欧与朱丽叶》中的朱丽叶已经 13 岁了，即将 14 岁了，她已经做好了结婚的准备。

In this life, we have a very long, an unnaturally long period here, before women can attain some sense of who they are as women.

在这一生中，我们有一段非常长的、不自然的长时期，直到女性能够对自己作为女性的身份有一定的认识。

I think that that is — .

我认为那就是 —— 。

It’s not men.

这不是男人。

It’s not the patriarchy, and it’s ultimately not a feminist issue.

这不是父权制，最终也不是女权主义问题。

It has something to do with this very mechanical system of the modern technological, professional world that has emerged to replace the agrarian period, when there were multiple generations living with each other, and women had a natural sense of solidarity, being all together.

这与现代技术、职业世界的机械系统有关，该系统是为了取代农业时代而出现的，当时有多代人相互生活，女性有一种自然的团结感，大家在一起。

There was the world of women, and the world of men, once.

曾经有女人的世界，也曾经有男人的世界。

They didn’t have that much to do with each other once.

他们曾经没有那么多的来往。

All the problems have happened since we started having to deal with each other.

自从我们开始互相打交道以来，所有的问题都发生了。