Brian Koppelman on TV, Movies, and Appreciating Art (Ep. 196)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I’m chatting with Brian Koppelman, who is a producer, director, and screenwriter.
今天我正在与布莱恩·科佩尔曼（Brian Koppelman）聊天，他是一位制片人、导演和编剧。
He’s the co-writer of the movie Ocean’s Thirteen and the movie Rounders; the producer for films including The Illusionist and The Lucky Ones; the director for films including Solitary Man with Michael Douglas and the documentary This Is What They Want for ESPN; and the co-creator, showrunner, and executive producer of Showtime’s Billions and Super Pumped: The Battle for Uber.
他是电影《十三罗汉》和《赌王之王》的联合编剧；电影《魔术师》和《幸运儿》的制片人；电影导演，包括迈克尔·道格拉斯主演的《孤独的人》和 ESPN 的纪录片《这就是他们想要的》；以及 Showtime 的《Billions》和《Super Pumped：The Battle for Uber》的联合创作者、剧集主管和执行制片人。
His podcast is The Moment, and my own daughter thinks this is one of the sagest sources of life advice out there.
他的播客是“The Moment”，我自己的女儿认为这是最明智的生活建议来源之一。
Brian, welcome.
布莱恩，欢迎。
That’s awesome to hear because, as you know, my son Sam certainly has a high opinion of you and your work.
听到这个消息真是太棒了，因为如你所知，我的儿子 Sam 对你和你的工作肯定有很高的评价。
It’s funny to me that you two knew one another, really, before you and I knew each other.
对我来说很有趣的是，你们两个真的在我和你认识之前就认识了。
And she knows you, I think, more as a podcaster than as a movie and TV person.
我认为，她对你的了解更多是作为一个播客而不是作为一个电影和电视人。
Awesome.
惊人的。
That’s great.
那太棒了。
I love people who interact with me via podcast and who get on the wavelength that I’m on on the pod.
我喜欢那些通过播客与我互动并且与我在播客上的波长相同的人。
I do feel very connected, too, and I understand why they’re connected to me, so that’s great.
我也确实感觉自己与他们之间的联系非常紧密，而且我理解为什么他们与我有联系，所以这很棒。
I have to meet her sometime.
我必须找个时间去见见她。
These people like us more somehow, right?
这些人不知何故更喜欢我们，对吧？
Isn’t that strange?
这不奇怪吗？
It is.
这是。
Do you feel this way?
你有这样的感觉吗？
I do think that someone who’s listened to enough episodes of The Moment — they do have a sense of the things that animate me.
我确实认为，听了足够多《The Moment》剧集的人，他们确实能够感受到那些让我充满活力的事物。
The things that animate me are so much a part of who I am that, in a sense, they do really know me, or they know a part of me, or they know me when I’m trying to access the part of me that’s most alive, the best of myself.
那些让我充满活力的事物是我的一部分，从某种意义上说，它们确实了解我，或者它们了解我的一部分，或者当我试图接触我最有活力的部分、最好的自己时，它们了解我。
When I meet someone and they’re a person who spent a lot of time engaged in that way, it’s not hard to find a way to connect.
当我遇到某人，而他们是一个花了很多时间以这种方式参与的人时，找到一种联系方式并不难。
Do you feel that way, too?
你也有这样的感觉吗？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Some of the people who think they don’t know me — in fact, they do know me.
有些人自认为不认识我——事实上，他们确实认识我。
They just can’t believe that’s what it means to know me, like, that’s it.
他们只是不敢相信这就是了解我的意义，就这样。
Yes.
是的。
Well, I think also, though, it’s hard to believe that somebody has not only the catholicity of interest and knowledge that you have, but the depth of interest and knowledge that you have.
嗯，我也认为，很难相信某人不仅拥有你所拥有的广泛的兴趣和知识，而且拥有你所拥有的兴趣和知识的深度。
I’m sure when someone meets you, they’re trying to understand how a human being has that entire range.
我确信当有人遇到你时，他们会试图了解一个人是如何拥有整个范围的。
Thank you.
谢谢。
I have some very simple questions for you about the history of television to start with.
首先，我有一些关于电视历史的非常简单的问题要问你。
I grew up in the 1970s and I’ve long wondered, “Why was TV so bad for so long before the so-called Golden Age?” Maybe you could date that to the 90s or the noughties, but why weren’t shows in the 70s and 80s better than they were?
我在 20 世纪 70 年代长大，长期以来一直想知道，“为什么电视在所谓的黄金时代之前这么长时间都这么糟糕？”也许你可以把它追溯到 90 年代或 20 世纪 90 年代，但为什么 70 年代和 80 年代的节目没有比现在更好呢？
Would you challenge that premise?
你会挑战这个前提吗？
Well, I also grew up in the ’70s.
嗯，我也是在 70 年代长大的。
I was born in ’66.
我出生于66年。
I’m not sure that the hypothesis that it was bad is correct.
我不确定它很糟糕的假设是否正确。
It certainly wasn’t, in general, as an art form, operating on the level that cinema was operating on or the level that music, in part, was operating on during that time.
一般来说，作为一种艺术形式，它当然不是在当时电影或音乐的运作水平上运作的。
But if we look at, say, children’s television, I could argue that Jim Henson and Sesame Street, for what it was and aimed at what it was aimed at, was as important as any television that’s on today.
但如果我们看一下儿童电视节目，我可以说吉姆·汉森和《芝麻街》就其本质和目标而言，与当今的任何电视节目一样重要。
I would say that Jim Henson moved the art form forward.
我想说吉姆·汉森推动了艺术形式的发展。
He figured out a use case for TV that hadn’t really been done before, and he created a way of thinking about the medium that was really different.
他找到了一个以前从未真正做过的电视用例，并创造了一种真正不同的媒体思考方式。
Then, look, Hill Street Blues shows up in the ’80s and, I think, figures out how to use certain techniques of theater and cinema and novels to tell these TV stories.
然后，看，希尔街布鲁斯出现在八十年代，我认为，它弄清楚了如何使用戏剧、电影和小说的某些技巧来讲述这些电视故事。
Like any other business, when that started to connect, then people in the business started to become aware of what was possible.
与任何其他企业一样，当这种联系开始出现时，企业中的人们就开始意识到什么是可能的。
Yes, it was a function of three channels, to answer your question.
是的，这是三个渠道的功能，来回答你的问题。
Yes, in the main, of course, TV was worse.
是的，当然，总的来说，电视更糟糕。
No doubt about it, but there were high points.
毫无疑问，但也有高潮。
I think those high points pointed the way toward the high points that came later.
我认为这些高潮为后来的高潮指明了道路。
For me, NYPD Blue is the network show that’s fully on the level of any of these shows that came after.
对我来说，《NYPD Blue》是一部完全达到了之后所有节目水平的网络节目。
David Milch cut his teeth on Hill Street Blues.
大卫·米尔奇 (David Milch) 在希尔街布鲁斯 (Hill Street Blues) 中崭露头角。
There’s a wonderful book by Brett Martin, called Difficult Men, that’s about showrunners.
布雷特·马丁（Brett Martin）有一本很棒的书，名叫《难相处的人》（Difficult Men），是关于剧集主管的。
It starts, in a way, with Bochco and Milch in that time period.
在某种程度上，它始于那个时期的博赫科和米尔奇。
It’s a great look into how this idea of showrunners created modern television.
这是对节目主持人的想法如何创造现代电视的一个很好的探讨。
HBO needing something, all these business reasons underneath it, but how people who came up through, originally, Hill Street were able to go on and start this revolution.
HBO 需要一些东西，背后有所有这些商业原因，但最初从希尔街走出来的人们如何能够继续并开始这场革命。
In your view, how good, really, was I Love Lucy?
在你看来，《我爱露西》到底有多好？
Is it just a few memorable moments, like Vitameatavegamin?
是否只是一些难忘的时刻，比如 Vitameatavegamin？
Or is it actually a show where it’d be good episode after good episode, like The Sopranos?
或者它实际上是一部接二连三的好剧，就像《黑道家族》那样？
Well, I was going to say we could look at shows .
嗯，我想说我们可以看演出。
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Obviously, she was an incredible physical performer, an incredible comedian.
显然，她是一位令人难以置信的身体表演者，一位令人难以置信的喜剧演员。
Her time was amazing.
她的时光真是太棒了。
Also, when you asked the question, I started thinking about the ’50s, and I started thinking about directors like Sidney Lumet and people who became world-class directors of cinema, and who started by directing those live television presentations, right?
另外，当你问这个问题时，我开始思考 50 年代，我开始思考像西德尼·吕美特这样的导演和那些成为世界级电影导演的人，以及那些从导演那些现场电视演示开始的人，对吗？
Those plays and all that stuff on TV in the ’50s — look, it was the dawning of an industry.
50 年代的那些戏剧和电视上的所有内容——看起来，这是一个行业的黎明。
It was the dawning of this art form in a real way.
这是这种艺术形式真正的黎明。
I Love Lucy has incredible moments.
我爱露西有令人难以置信的时刻。
I’ve certainly seen every single episode, and I think probably not just because making this stuff is my job.
我当然看过每一集，我想可能不仅仅是因为制作这些东西是我的工作。
It was never, ever a moment that it was my favorite show, but I love westerns.
它从来都不是我最喜欢的节目，但我喜欢西部片。
I grew up watching westerns with my dad, and Chuck Connors, The Rifleman — it might not be a good show, but I think there are elements in that that are synchronous with movies, and have similar iconography, and maybe were able to deliver that in a digestible way that made you curious about what else was out there, what that was inspired by, or what that was inspiring.
我是和父亲一起看西部片长大的，还有查克·康纳斯的《步枪手》——这可能不是一部好剧，但我认为其中有一些元素与电影同步，并且有相似的图像，也许能够以一种易于理解的方式传达这些内容，让你好奇外面还有什么，受到什么启发，或者什么鼓舞人心。
Well, if we move to the current day, there are many quite good TV shows, but why aren’t there many more?
好吧，如果我们回到今天，有很多很好的电视节目，但为什么没有更多呢？
What is the scarce factor?
稀缺因素是什么？
Is it directors, is it money, is it viewers caring, is it screenwriting, all of the above?
是导演的问题，是金钱的问题，是观众的关心，还是编剧的问题，所有这些？
How should I think about that, as an economist?
作为一名经济学家，我应该如何看待这个问题？
Well, art, as you know because you’re such a dedicated consumer and thinker about great art, you care a lot about it.
嗯，艺术，正如你所知，因为你是伟大艺术的忠实消费者和思想家，所以你非常关心它。
You can hear a piece, and it does something to you.
你可以听到一首曲子，它会对你产生一些影响。
Yes, if we look at the music, if we look at Bitches Brew just for a second, how it was received in its time and how people think of it now.
是的，如果我们看看音乐，看看 Bitches Brew，看看它在当时是如何被接受的，以及人们现在是如何看待它的。
On one hand, we could say, “Well, music can be reduced to just frequencies.
一方面，我们可以说：“嗯，音乐可以简化为频率。
These frequencies, for whatever reason that we don’t yet understand, are pleasing to us.”
这些频率，无论出于什么我们尚不明白的原因，都让我们感到高兴。”
You may say, “Well, one has to come to Bitches Brew with an understanding of bebop, hard bop, this whole thing.” Or I might say to you, “I don’t think so.
你可能会说，“好吧，来到 Bitches Brew 的人必须了解 Bebop、硬波普以及这整件事。”或者我可能会对你说：“我不这么认为。
I think you could put that record on, in fact, to somebody who doesn’t come in expecting jazz to be something.
事实上，我认为你可以把这张唱片卖给那些并不期待爵士乐成为某种东西的人。
They might be hit with it in a way that, suddenly, it nails them.” Which is to say that the effect that storytelling art has is, in a sense — because we don’t understand why — it’s magic.
他们可能会受到某种程度的打击，突然间，它就会钉住他们。”也就是说，讲故事艺术所具有的效果，在某种意义上是 —— 因为我们不明白为什么 —— 它具有魔力。
When you ask why there’s not more that’s better, it’s like it always comes down .
当您问为什么没有更多更好时，似乎总是会下降。
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Of course, as an economist, you might say, “Well, how are we incentivizing people to make this stuff?
当然，作为一名经济学家，你可能会说：“那么，我们如何激励人们制造这些东西呢？
How are we drawing the best people into it?” I do think, on the whole, television is a writer’s medium, and that you need to incentivize and reward writers to be willing to turn themselves inside out to create amazing stuff.
我们如何吸引最优秀的人才加入其中？”我确实认为，总的来说，电视是作家的媒介，你需要激励和奖励作家，让他们愿意彻底改变自己，创造出令人惊叹的东西。
But I might flip it and say, “How much truly amazing stuff is there in any given art form at any given time you might take a snapshot of it?” Because so much stuff has to come together.
但我可能会翻转它并说，“在任何特定的艺术形式中，在任何特定的时间，你可以拍下它的快照，有多少真正令人惊叹的东西？”因为有太多的东西必须聚集在一起。
The writing has to be incredible.
写作必须令人难以置信。
First of all, the concept has to be one that nails the moment in time, you know, the way Franzen was talking about the duty you have to write the great American novel.
首先，这个概念必须是一个能够及时抓住某个时刻的概念，你知道，就像弗兰岑谈论你必须写出一部伟大的美国小说的责任一样。
It’s one that takes in and, in some way, processes the world that you’re living in.
它以某种方式吸收并处理你所生活的世界。
That could be a science fiction novel, right?
这可能是一本科幻小说，对吧？
It could be a historical novel, but in some way, it is hitting off the times in which you live.
它可能是一部历史小说，但在某种程度上，它与你生活的时代很吻合。
A great piece of television — whether it’s Mad Men, whether it’s the Larry Sanders Show, whether it’s NYPD Blue that I was talking about earlier, or if it’s The Sopranos — it needs to, conceptually, be something that the times want to engage with.
一部伟大的电视作品 ——无论是《广告狂人》，还是《拉里·桑德斯秀》，无论是我之前谈到的《纽约警察蓝色》，还是《黑道家族》 ——从概念上讲，它需要成为时代想要参与的东西。
It needs to have a writer or writers with an incredibly clear sense of purpose, and they have to be talented enough and ready to give what it takes.
它需要有一个或多个具有极其清晰的目标感的作家，他们必须有足够的才华并准备好付出一切。
Then the magical alchemy of their words, the camera, and that group of actors has to take flight.
然后他们的话语、摄像机和那群演员的神奇魔力必须起飞。
You can hire really talented people, and sometimes it doesn’t work, and sometimes, suddenly, almost miraculously, it really does work.
你可以雇佣真正有才华的人，有时它不起作用，但有时，突然间，几乎奇迹般地，它真的起作用了。
This is why someone like David Milch — that’s another book I would recommend.
这就是为什么像大卫·米尔奇这样的人——这是我推荐的另一本书。
It’s Milch’s book, which is one of the best, maybe the best book ever written about television, the one that came out last year.
这是米尔奇的书，是关于电视的最好的书之一，也许是有史以来最好的书，去年出版的。
When you think about a guy like that, who was able to write some of the best episodes of Hill Street, then NYPD Blue, and then create Deadwood — that does feel to me, as somebody who does this stuff, miraculous.
当你想到这样一个人时，他能够写出《希尔街》的一些最好的剧集，然后是《纽约警察蓝调》，然后创作《戴德伍德》——对我来说，作为一个做这些事情的人，确实感觉很神奇。
Why has Israeli TV been so good in the last 10 years?
为什么以色列电视在过去十年里如此出色？
Srugim, Shtisel, Prisoners of War.
斯鲁吉姆、施蒂塞尔、战俘。
There’s a lot more, actually.
实际上还有很多。
They are great shows.
他们都是很棒的节目。
I want to give you an answer, but what I really think is, one thing I’ve learned .
我想给你一个答案，但我真正想的是，我学到了一件事。
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When your daughter says that there are things that she hears me say, I would say one of the things that I really have felt, the older I’ve gotten, is just an incredible comfort in saying, “I don’t know.” Whatever that amalgam of things are that’s created the ground to be fertile enough, and then the artists to be ready to make the work that they’re making and to have it connect — I don’t know.
当你女儿说她听到我说一些事情时，我会说我真正感受到的一件事，随着我年龄的增长，说“我不知道”是一种令人难以置信的安慰。无论这些事物的混合体是什么，它创造了足够肥沃的土壤，然后艺术家准备好制作他们正在制作的作品并将其连接起来 - 我不知道。
I haven’t studied it, so I don’t have a ready-made answer for you.
我没有研究过，所以没有现成的答案给你。
I think in a more global sense, we’re pulling back from 30,000 feet.
我认为从更全球的角度来看，我们正在从 30,000 英尺的高度撤退。
There was a moment when I thought South Korean cinema was just incredible.
曾经有一段时间，我觉得韩国电影真是不可思议。
It’s been for a long time.
已经很长时间了。
I remember watching this series of 8 or 10 or 12 movies, and I had a thought that it was a moment in time where the movies from South Korea — without ever mentioning what it feels like to have North Korea as your neighbor, as this bully, as this invasion of your psyche.
我记得看过这个系列的 8 或 10 或 12 部电影，我有一个想法，那就是来自韩国的电影 - 从来没有提到过朝鲜作为你的邻居，作为这个恶霸，作为对你心灵的入侵的感觉。
They would never say that.
他们永远不会这么说。
The movies weren’t about that at all.
电影根本不是关于这个的。
Yet, receiving those movies, I felt part of why they were so potent was that they were suffused with that idea somewhere in the consciousness of the people making it.
然而，在收到这些电影后，我觉得它们之所以如此强大，部分原因在于它们在制作它们的人的意识中的某个地方充满了这种想法。
So, it had that kind of effect because you felt this need for freedom.
所以，它有这样的效果，因为你感到需要自由。
You felt this sense of encroaching doom, this sense of wanting to define themselves — the people in the movies and the filmmakers.
你感受到了这种厄运的逼近感，这种想要定义自己——电影中的人和电影制片人的感觉。
Perhaps something similar is going on.
也许类似的事情正在发生。
Anytime a certain area starts to produce work that’s really good and important .
任何时候某个领域开始产出真正优秀且重要的作品。
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But I haven’t given the Israeli stuff the same amount of thought that I gave that South Korean stuff a few years back.
但我对以色列的东西没有像几年前对韩国的东西那样重视。
I just watched Oldboy on a large screen for the first time.
我刚刚第一次在大屏幕上观看《老男孩》。
Do you like that one?
你喜欢那个吗？
Well, that’s a great one.
嗯，那是一件很棒的事。
For me, it’s an incredible movie, the original.
对我来说，这是一部令人难以置信的原创电影。
For me, Bad Boy, Sympathy for Lady Vengeance — those are two that I think are great.
对我来说，《坏小子》、《同情复仇女神》——我认为这两部都很棒。
But there are many, many movies from 10 years ago and 12 years ago from Korea — I’ll text you a list — that are just great.
但是韩国有很多很多10年前和12年前的电影 —— 我会给你发短信清单 —— 都很棒。
Mother is very good.
妈妈很好。
Memories of a Murder is the earliest one I know.
《谋杀回忆》是我所知道的最早的一部。
I’m sure you have seen it.
我相信你已经看到了。
I haven’t seen that one.
我还没见过那个。
Oh, you must, one time.
哦，你必须，一次。
I know, I haven’t seen that one.
我知道，我还没见过那个。
Somehow I missed that one.
不知怎的，我错过了那个。
No, I missed it.
不，我错过了。
I’ll watch it, for sure.
我肯定会看的。
When people watch TV shows, often these days, they binge, so they’ll watch many episodes in a row.
如今，当人们看电视节目时，他们通常会狂看，因此他们会连续观看很多集。
I don’t do that.
我不这样做。
I like to watch something like one a week.
我喜欢每周看一部。
At the margin, do you want to have your viewers bingeing more, bingeing less?
在边际上，你想让观众多看几集，还是少看几集？
What do you prefer?
你更喜欢什么？
How do you think about that tradeoff?
您如何看待这种权衡？
Do you binge?
你暴饮暴食吗？
I loved the experience of watching Mad Men week to week.
我喜欢每周观看《广告狂人》的体验。
I’m so glad that I got to watch it week to week.
我很高兴能够每周观看它。
It was almost like a holy day in our house.
这几乎就像我们家的一个圣日。
Amy and I would start taping it.
艾米和我会开始录制它。
It would just get a little run-up before we would start, because Mad Men actually had commercials, oddly enough.
在我们开始之前，它会稍微加速一下，因为《广告狂人》实际上有广告，这很奇怪。
Even the later years, very few commercials, and they would chunk it, so that was great.
即使是后来的几年，广告也很少，而且他们会把它分块，所以这很棒。
There’s something about the anticipation and then seeing something when it airs.
当它播出时，会有一些期待和看到的东西。
When Twitter was slightly different, I really loved having a conversation on Twitter after a show that was meaningful.
当 Twitter 略有不同时，我真的很喜欢在一场有意义的演出后在 Twitter 上进行对话。
You would watch the second-to-last episode of Mad Men, and then you could see what Sepinwall was saying on Twitter, and you could talk to him, and you could talk to Matt Zoller Seitz.
你会观看《广告狂人》的倒数第二集，然后你可以看到 Sepinwall 在 Twitter 上说的话，你可以与他交谈，你可以与 Matt Zoller Seitz 交谈。
You could engage in that way, and that was incredibly fun.
你可以以这种方式参与，这非常有趣。
But The Crown is probably my favorite show, The Bear and The Crown.
但《王冠》可能是我最喜欢的节目，《熊与王冠》。
I’d say both The Bear and The Crown — Amy and I binged those shows.
我会说《熊》和《王冠》——《艾米和我》都看了这些节目。
The experience, this year, of watching The Bear was an extraordinary experience to binge it, because I felt like I was immersed in Christopher Storer’s imagination, in the way he saw the world.
今年观看《熊》的经历是一次非凡的狂欢经历，因为我觉得自己沉浸在克里斯托弗·斯托勒的想象中，沉浸在他看待世界的方式中。
And it was like reading a novel, the kind of novel — even a big novel — that you read in a weekend, and that’s what we did.
这就像读一本小说，那种你在周末读的小说——甚至是一本大小说，而这就是我们所做的。
We watched on a Saturday and Sunday, and it was an incredible experience, but I think to binge something like that, the show needs to be great.
我们在周六和周日观看了这部电影，这是一次令人难以置信的体验，但我认为要狂欢这样的节目，节目必须很棒。
We also picked moments to stop.
我们也选择了停下来的时刻。
We picked moments to stop and think about it and talk about it.
我们选择了一些时间停下来思考并讨论它。
Then, picked the moments to stop and wait till the next day.
然后，选择停下来等待第二天。
I think both things are rewarding.
我认为这两件事都是有益的。
I feel like The Crown is built to binge, and the way that it accretes really works in a binge model.
我觉得《The Crown》是为狂欢而生的，而且它的增长方式在狂欢模型中确实有效。
I have a feeling that Mad Men — because there were so many quiet moments in Mad Men, because Mad Men was about visual images and about symbolism, because his business was about semiotics — when you would be able to walk away and think about what you saw, it was really rewarding.
我有一种感觉，《广告狂人》——因为《广告狂人》中有很多安静的时刻，因为《广告狂人》是关于视觉图像和象征主义的，因为他的工作是关于符号学的——当你能够走开并思考你所看到的东西时，这真的很有价值。
The Crown is rewarding, too, in those ways, but I think they’re built slightly differently.
在这些方面，皇冠也有回报，但我认为它们的建造方式略有不同。
David and I don’t really think about it in making Billions.
大卫和我在赚取数十亿美元时并没有真正考虑过这一点。
I think we just want the whole thing to add up, to accrete, as I say.
正如我所说，我认为我们只是希望整个事情加起来、积累起来。
But also, we do want you to be able to watch in a discrete.
而且，我们确实希望您能够以离散方式观看。
Combining food and television viewing — did that make American food worse?
将食物和电视结合起来 ——这会让美国的食物变得更糟吗？
Because Europeans don’t do that so much.
因为欧洲人不那么做。
Oh, yes.
哦是的。
Eating at the kitchen table and watching is absolutely .
在厨房的餐桌上吃饭和观看绝对是。
.
。
.
。
I love the question.
我喜欢这个问题。
Well, yes, you should eat your food, have a conversation with yourself or your family, depending on your situation, and then get ready and watch stuff.
嗯，是的，您应该吃东西，根据您的情况与自己或家人交谈，然后做好准备并观看内容。
On the other hand, if you’ve worked really hard all day, and you just want to sit down and eat and watch something .
另一方面，如果您一整天都非常努力地工作，而您只想坐下来吃点东西并看一些东西。
.
。
.
。
I feel like for certain things — I’ll use the word read — to read them, I do think that there’s a wrong and a right way to read certain pieces of material.
我觉得对于某些事情 — 我会用“读”这个词 — 来阅读它们，我确实认为阅读某些材料有错误和正确的方法。
On the other hand, it’s entertainment, so if people want to be entertained while eating a burger and watching the thing, I think that’s all right.
另一方面，它是娱乐，所以如果人们想在吃汉堡和观看东西的同时得到娱乐，我认为那是可以的。
I think the people making stuff, to a person — I would say, just to circle to your question earlier, man — people making this stuff are trying really hard to make it as well as they can.
我认为制造东西的人，对一个人来说——我想说，只是为了早些时候回答你的问题，伙计，制造这些东西的人正在非常努力地尽力做到最好。
The answer is never that they’re not working themselves to their greatest capacity, given their level of exhaustion.
考虑到他们的疲惫程度，答案绝不是他们没有尽最大努力工作。
But I don’t think, then, they require you to watch it under certain circumstances.
但我认为，他们并不要求你在某些情况下观看它。
I think you want certain people watching it that way.
我认为你希望某些人以这种方式观看。
I would prefer that someone writing about the work is focused on it.
我希望撰写有关这项工作的人能够专注于它。
How do you feel about audiobooks?
您对有声读物有何看法？
Do you feel that somebody on a run, listening to one of your books, is having an experience similar to the experience of sitting down with a pen and underlining when they read it?
你是否觉得一个人在跑步时听你的一本书，所获得的体验类似于坐下来拿着笔在阅读时在下面划线的体验？
Or is it not at all similar to that?
或者说根本不相似？
If I was reading it, I would feel fine about it.
如果我读它，我会感觉很好。
I don’t like to listen to audiobooks, but if my readers are listening, I think that’s great.
我不喜欢听有声读物，但如果我的读者正在听，我认为那就太好了。
But the people who read them — they’re somehow weird and corny.
但阅读这些文章的人却有些奇怪和老套。
I feel it ought to sound like me, and it doesn’t.
我觉得它听起来应该像我，但事实并非如此。
I get that if it sounded like me, it might sell fewer copies, but I don’t care about that.
我知道如果听起来像我，它的销量可能会减少，但我不在乎。
If I were you, I would insist on doing it yourself.
如果我是你，我会坚持自己做。
You don’t do it yourself now?
你现在不自己做吗？
My last book, they’re “Oh, you should do it yourself.” Then they got the book, and they’re like, “Well, we’re going to have someone come in and do this.” Again, it was probably an okay commercial decision, but it sounds like a Martian.
我的上一本书，他们是“哦，你应该自己做。”然后他们拿到了书，然后说：“好吧，我们会派人来做这件事。”再说一次，这可能是一个不错的商业决定，但听起来像火星人。
Oh, I feel like it’s really crucial.
哦，我觉得这真的很关键。
I couldn’t agree with you more.
我非常同意你的观点。
I really want authors reading their own books, and I want to feel the intonation from the author, particularly someone whose voice is so familiar to people now from the podcast.
我真的希望作者读他们自己的书，我想感受作者的语调，尤其是现在播客中的人们对他的声音如此熟悉的人。
I feel like if I bought your book on audio, I’d want to hear you reading your book.
我觉得如果我买了你的有声书，我会想听你读你的书。
Well, we will see.
好吧，我们拭目以待。
Is there a television purchase that you would be willing to recommend to our listeners?
您愿意向我们的听众推荐购买的电视节目吗？
What you watch, why you think it’s best?
你看什么，为什么你认为它最好？
No, because things change.
不，因为事情发生了变化。
The truth is, I think there’s such a high quality now in the televisions.
事实是，我认为现在电视的质量非常高。
Where people get screwed up is in the settings.
人们搞砸的地方在于设置。
You’ve got to go in there, you’ve got to read, go pull up a cinematography magazine, and just pull up what cinematographers tell you.
你必须进去，你必须阅读，拿出一本电影摄影杂志，然后拿出电影摄影师告诉你的内容。
Rian Johnson’s talked about this online, the great director and writer.
伟大的导演兼编剧莱恩·约翰逊在网上谈到了这一点。
When I got the last TV I got, I asked Rian to just tell me what to set my television up to.
当我拿到最后一台电视时，我请 Rian 告诉我如何设置电视。
I just set it up to exactly his specs, and now it looks great.
我只是按照他的规格进行了设置，现在看起来很棒。
Is that online somewhere?
是在某个地方在线吗？
Oh yes, you can find it.
哦，是的，你可以找到它。
It’s just turning off a bunch of the stuff that’s set up for watching sports only, and it returns it to looking like you want it to look, or as close as it can.
它只是关闭了一些专为观看体育比赛而设置的东西，然后将其恢复到您想要的样子，或者尽可能接近。
Now, let’s say we put you in charge completely, and you get to redesign multiplex movie theaters.
现在，假设我们让你完全负责，你可以重新设计多厅电影院。
You can’t make them like the Hollywood palaces of the ’20s, but within reason, what are the changes you would make to improve the movie-watching experience?
你无法让它们像20年代的好莱坞宫殿，但在合理范围内，你会做出哪些改变来改善观影体验？
This is not about making more money.
这不是为了赚更多的钱。
It’s about making the movie better.
这是为了让电影变得更好。
What would you do?
你会怎么办？
Well, like a good Dungeons & Dragons dungeon master, you started by taking away the first thing I would do.
好吧，就像一个优秀的《龙与地下城》地下城主一样，你首先剥夺了我要做的第一件事。
You made it more difficult.
你让事情变得更加困难了。
The first thing I would do is make sure you could have a Zigfield-like screen because that big screen is immersive, and you’re lost.
我要做的第一件事就是确保你能拥有一个类似 Zigfield 的屏幕，因为那个大屏幕是身临其境的，你会迷失方向。
And the sound quality — I think it’s basic.
音质 —— 我认为这是基本的。
If Greta Gerwig or Chris Nolan — they’re setting up their movie to look a certain way.
如果格蕾塔·葛韦格或克里斯·诺兰 ——他们正在以某种方式设置他们的电影。
Whatever you need to do in the movie theater to recreate the experience that they last had when they approved it, sound and picture.
无论您需要在电影院做什么来重现他们上次批准时的体验，声音和图像。
Sometimes you’ll walk into a theater, and it won’t be bright enough.
有时你走进剧院，却发现里面不够亮。
It won’t be enough candles.
蜡烛不够。
That stuff drives us nuts.
这些东西让我们发疯。
I would just want people to really care: the projectionist to care, the people setting the thing up.
我只是希望人们真正关心：放映员关心，设置人员关心。
Make sure that it’s lit properly.
确保其点亮正常。
Make sure that all the speakers are working properly.
确保所有扬声器都工作正常。
Make sure that the sound ratio is what the filmmakers wanted.
确保声音比例符合电影制作人的要求。
Those are my modest beginning things.
这些是我最谦虚的开始。
Then, I do love seeing a movie on a giant screen.
然后，我真的很喜欢在大屏幕上看电影。
Seeing Mission Impossible at the IMAX — a proper 70-millimeter IMAX — was a phenomenal movie-going experience.
在 IMAX（真正的 70 毫米 IMAX）观看《碟中谍》是一次非凡的观影体验。
There are only 13, I think, proper IMAX 70-millimeter theaters in the country.
我认为，全国只有 13 家正规的 IMAX 70 毫米影院。
There’s one 10 blocks from me in New York City, and it’s a thrill to go to that theater to see a movie, every time I go see a movie there.
纽约市有一个距离我 10 个街区的地方，每次去那个剧院看电影都是一种兴奋。
For you, as a viewer, how crowded do you want the movie theater to be?
对于你来说，作为观众，你希望电影院有多拥挤？
I’d like two-thirds to three-quarters full or totally empty, depending on the film.
我想要三分之二到四分之三满或完全空，具体取决于电影。
Nothing in between.
两者之间没有什么。
What’s your view?
你的看法是什么？
My very favorite time to see a movie is the first screening of the day on a Saturday morning.
我最喜欢看电影的时间是周六早上的第一场放映。
Probably my second favorite would be a really full screening on a Friday night, where I have the seat that I like, which is dead center, but the aisle.
也许我第二喜欢的是周五晚上的一场真正的全面放映，在那里我有我喜欢的座位，在正中心，但在过道上。
I love an early morning seeing a film.
我喜欢清晨看电影。
I remember seeing Tree of Life, that great Terrence Malick film, at the old Lincoln Center Theater.
我记得在老林肯中心剧院看过泰伦斯·马力克的伟大电影《生命之树》。
You would go downstairs, the independent cinema.
你会下楼去独立电影院。
It was a Saturday morning, and I was alone.
那是一个星期六的早晨，我独自一人。
I felt like I was alone with Malick’s vision.
我觉得只有我一个人拥有马利克的愿景。
That theater cared a lot.
那个剧院非常关心。
The screens were small, but they cared a lot about the screens being accurate.
屏幕很小，但他们非常关心屏幕的准确性。
I felt lost for three-plus hours.
我感到迷失了三个多小时。
I was in a reality that I didn’t normally live in and I didn’t create.
我生活在一个我通常不生活的现实中，也没有创造。
I was experiencing the world the way Terrence Malick saw the world.
我以泰伦斯·马力克看待世界的方式体验着这个世界。
That is an experience that I wish everybody could have.
这是我希望每个人都能拥有的经历。
It just rewards you.
它只是奖励你。
It rewards your time and effort.
它奖励您的时间和努力。
That’s my favorite: first thing in the morning on a Saturday.
这是我最喜欢的：周六早上的第一件事。
When is it you prefer to see the movie alone?
你什么时候更喜欢一个人看电影？
No companion, no partner, just you.
没有同伴，没有伙伴，只有你。
You mean, which movies do I prefer to see that way?
你的意思是，我更喜欢这样看哪些电影？
Yes.
是的。
Sometimes a sad movie, I might prefer to see alone.
有时一部悲伤的电影，我可能更喜欢一个人看。
What if the other person doesn’t find it sad?
如果对方不觉得难过怎么办？
It’s a bit of a discord.
这有点不和谐。
I would say I’m lucky in that Amy is a great movie-going partner because she’s also a filmmaker, and if we don’t receive them exactly the same way .
I would say I’m lucky in that Amy is a great movie-going partner because she’s also a filmmaker, and if we don’t receive them exactly the same way .
.
。
.
。
David Levien, my creative partner — same thing.
大卫·莱维恩（David Levien），我的创意伙伴——同样如此。
But I love seeing movies alone.
但我喜欢一个人看电影。
I would say I love seeing a movie for the second time alone.
我想说我喜欢第二次独自看电影。
The answer is, really, when I go see something for the second time, like PTA’s movie The Master.
答案是，确实，当我第二次去看某些东西时，比如 PTA 的电影《大师》。
The other thing I love to do is —
我喜欢做的另一件事是 ——
Well, why is that better the second time?
那么，为什么第二次会更好呢？
Tell us that first.
先告诉我们吧。
Being alone the second time — because the first time, you’re swept up in the film.
第二次独自一人 ——因为第一次，你就被电影所吸引。
You’re with somebody, you’re like, “Can you believe this moment?
当你和某人在一起时，你会说：“你能相信这一刻吗？
Look at that shot of him going across the salt flats.
看看他穿过盐滩的那张照片。
Oh, look at the look on Philip Seymour Hoffman’s face in this moment.” You’re in it together.
哦，看看菲利普·塞默·霍夫曼此刻脸上的表情。”你们在一起。
Then the next time, when I’m alone, I’ve seen it, so it’s not about just being swept away, and it’s not about being analytical.
然后下一次，当我一个人的时候，我就看到了它，所以这不仅仅是被卷走，也不是分析。
It is about allowing myself, in a very private way, to notice things and then take my time noticing them and thinking about them, thinking about them as it’s going.
It is about allowing myself, in a very private way, to notice things and then take my time noticing them and thinking about them, thinking about them as it’s going.
I know what the story is.
我知道这个故事是什么。
I saw it the night before.
我前一天晚上就看到了。
There’s something about the solitude of a second time.
第二次的孤独是有某种东西的。
Y tu mamá también I remember seeing a second time because I had a question in my head.
Y tu mamá también 我记得第二次见到是因为我脑子里有一个问题。
“Okay, how did he get to this?” The voiceover is reminiscent of the way Melville would sometimes do voiceover, like in Bob le flambeur or something.
“好吧，他是怎么做到这一点的？”画外音让人想起梅尔维尔有时做画外音的方式，比如《火焰鲍勃》之类的。
You’re like, “Okay, what is this?
你会说：“好吧，这是什么？
How did he decide that that’s the approach he’s taking?
他是如何决定这就是他所采取的方法的？
How is this used so well?
这个怎么用的这么好呢？
Why does this movie both feel so intimate in first person and yet have this omniscience?” I had some questions, so the second time, I could, alone, allow those questions to wash over me and try to see if I came up with answers to them.
为什么这部电影在第一人称视角下给人如此亲密的感觉，同时又有如此无所不知的感觉？” I had some questions, so the second time, I could, alone, allow those questions to wash over me and try to see if I came up with answers to them.
Why are so many movies today too long?
为什么今天这么多电影都太长了？
Yours are not, I’m very happy to say, but how’d that happen?
我很高兴地说，你的不是，但这是怎么发生的呢？
Well, I’ll get to that, but I want to say one other thing.
好吧，我会讲到这一点，但我想说另一件事。
The other thing I love is, I remember the first time I saw She’s Gotta Have It.
我喜欢的另一件事是，我记得第一次看到《她必须拥有它》时的情景。
I didn’t know who Spike Lee was, and —
我不知道斯派克·李是谁，而且 ——
Nor did I.
我也没有。
It blew me away.
它让我大吃一惊。
Right.
正确的。
I was thinking about movies that really changed me, and that was a movie that changed me.
我在想那些真正改变我的电影，那是一部改变我的电影。
I remember going to see it in Boston.
我记得去波士顿看过。
I was a sophomore in college.
我当时是大学二年级学生。
I didn’t say “in Boston” because I went to Harvard.
我没有说“在波士顿”，因为我去了哈佛。
I did not.
我没有。
I went to Tufts.
我去了塔夫茨。
Don’t think I’m trying to be smart and subtly say that.
别以为我是想表现得很聪明，巧妙地说出这些话。
I didn’t.
我没有。
The Harvard people say Cambridge, right?
哈佛人说剑桥，对吧？
That’s the arrogance — not to say Boston.
这就是傲慢——更不用说波士顿了。
Sometimes they say “New England.
有时他们说“新英格兰”。
I went to a small .
我去了一家小。
.
。
.”
”。
I remember going to see it, and all I wanted to do was bring people to it.
我记得我去看了它，我想做的就是带人们去看它。
I saw it, and then when he reveals that it’s him at the end — because as you’re watching it, you don’t know he’s Mars Blackmon because it was so early in the thing.
I saw it, and then when he reveals that it’s him at the end — because as you’re watching it, you don’t know he’s Mars Blackmon because it was so early in the thing.
He wasn’t famous yet.
他还没有出名。
I remember the theater I saw it in and everything.
我记得我在剧院里看过的一切。
I went back three days in a row to see that movie, and I brought groups of people.
我连续三天回去看那部电影，还带了一群人。
I love that with all forms of art.
我喜欢所有形式的艺术。
I love when you stumble upon something that has the thing about it that reminds you.
我喜欢当你偶然发现一些能让你想起的东西时。
For me, I wasn’t yet somebody who was doing this.
对我来说，我还不是做这件事的人。
I wasn’t a filmmaker.
我不是电影制片人。
I didn’t even know I could be a filmmaker.
我什至不知道我可以成为一名电影制片人。
I didn’t know I could be a writer.
我不知道我可以成为一名作家。
But there was something about the way Spike Lee used language and he used cinema that blew my mind, and I had to share it with people.
但斯派克·李使用语言和电影的方式让我大吃一惊，我必须与人们分享。
In a way, it’s a very personal experience, but I wanted it to become communal.
在某种程度上，这是一种非常个人的经历，但我希望它成为公共的。
That’s the gift of the movies.
这就是电影的礼物。
I remember bringing groups of people both nights.
我记得两个晚上都带着一群人。
Say I saw it Friday.
说我周五看到的。
Then I saw it Saturday night, and I saw it Sunday matinee.
然后我周六晚上看了它，周日的日场我又看了它。
Sharing it like that — this is why there are movies.
像这样分享 —— 这就是电影的原因。
This is why this art form is so fantastic.
这就是为什么这种艺术形式如此美妙。
I remember experiencing it with those people and loving it just as much, all three times that I saw it.
我记得和那些人一起经历过它，并且同样喜欢它，我已经看了三次了。
Movies being too long.
电影太长了。
What happened there?
那里发生了什么？
Or are they not too long?
或者它们不是太长？
I don’t know why —
我不知道为什么 —
Well, my friends say they’re too long.
好吧，我的朋友说它们太长了。
I’ve never heard someone say, “Oh, I want more movies that are 2 hours, 49 minutes.”
我从来没有听过有人说：“哦，我想要更多 2 小时 49 分钟的电影。”
Is Citizen Kane too long?
《公民凯恩》太长了吗？
No, but that’s Citizen Kane.
不，但那是《公民凯恩》。
Is Casablanca too long?
卡萨布兰卡太长了吗？
No, that’s Casablanca.
不，那是卡萨布兰卡。
Is The Third Man too long?
《第三个人》太长了吗？
But there are so many movies, like the 13th-best movie that came out this year.
但电影实在是太多了，比如今年上映的最佳电影第13名。
It’s almost three hours, and those are too long.
快三个小时了，太长了。
It just depends.
这只是取决于。
Look, that’s that thing where, for a long time, people would slam an artist for making a double album.
听着，在很长一段时间里，人们都会因为制作双专辑而抨击艺术家。
Yes, a lot of double albums — there’s a lot of fat, but when I listen to The River and then I listen to what would have been the single album of The River —
Yes, a lot of double albums — there’s a lot of fat, but when I listen to The River and then I listen to what would have been the single album of The River —
The double is better.
双的更好。
The double is better.
双的更好。
I love certain of the songs.
我喜欢其中的某些歌曲。
“Be True” is great, and I wish that was on the bigger record, but the bigger record is there for a reason.
“Be True”很棒，我希望它能出现在更大的唱片上，但更大的唱片的存在是有原因的。
Look, I’m somebody who wants the artists .
看，我是一个想要艺术家的人。
.
。
.
。
I love Tarantino’s movies, and I want his movies to be long.
我喜欢塔伦蒂诺的电影，我希望他的电影很长。
I’m happy to sit there and see him fully exercising his vision.
我很高兴坐在那里看到他充分发挥他的视力。
I don’t really think that the studios let most people make movies that are just too long.
我真的不认为工作室会让大多数人制作太长的电影。
I don’t know Wes Anderson.
我不认识韦斯·安德森。
I don’t know him, but I met him once.
我不认识他，但我见过他一次。
I love his movies, and I love that his movies are 90 minutes.
我喜欢他的电影，而且我喜欢他的电影90分钟。
The one time I met him, we were screening a film.
我第一次见到他时，我们正在放映一部电影。
He invited some people who happened to be in town, who he knew were film people, so I got to watch a movie with him.
他邀请了一些碰巧在城里的人，他知道他们都是电影人，所以我和他一起看电影。
Afterwards, we were just talking about movies, and I said, “These movies of yours — they are 90 minutes,” and he said, “Yes.
后来我们就聊电影，我说，“你的这些电影 — 都是90分钟，”他说，“是的。
I found that the concepts I’m interested in don’t really support a journey that lasts longer than that.” He’s an incredibly disciplined filmmaker.
我发现我感兴趣的概念并不真正支持持续时间更长的旅程。”他是一位非常自律的电影制片人。
I was like, “That makes total sense.”
我当时想，“这完全有道理。”
Can you imagine telling PTA — let’s say Magnolia.
你能想象告诉 PTA ——比如说 Magnolia。
Perhaps some people find aspects of Magnolia to be really about a filmmaker working some stuff out for the filmmaker’s purposes, but there are other people who find those parts of the movie incredibly satisfying.
Perhaps some people find aspects of Magnolia to be really about a filmmaker working some stuff out for the filmmaker’s purposes, but there are other people who find those parts of the movie incredibly satisfying.
I think when somebody is a masterful artist, like PTA, let’s give them the room to do that.
我认为当某人是一位出色的艺术家时，就像 PTA 一样，我们应该给他们空间来做到这一点。
I’m also someone who doesn’t like baseball games being shortened, and I don’t like pulling pitchers who are pitching a perfect game in the eighth because of the pitch count.
I’m also someone who doesn’t like baseball games being shortened, and I don’t like pulling pitchers who are pitching a perfect game in the eighth because of the pitch count.
I’m a bit of a romantic when it comes to this stuff, so I’m indulgent of the wishes of both filmmakers and pitchers.
我对这些东西有点浪漫，所以我会满足电影制片人和投手的愿望。
Speaking of Magnolia, what has happened to what you might call old-school movie stars?
说到木兰，那些你所谓的老派电影明星怎么了？
This is 2023.
这是 2023 年。
There were major films with Harrison Ford at 80, and Tom Cruise at whatever age, in the lead roles.
一些主要电影由 80 岁的哈里森·福特和任何年龄的汤姆·克鲁斯担任主角。
Good for them, I’m all for that, but why is there no next generation of very top movie stars?
对他们有好处，我完全赞成，但为什么没有下一代非常顶级的电影明星呢？
Well, let’s see if Margot Robbie is that.
好吧，让我们看看玛格特·罗比是不是那样。
Why isn’t she?
为什么她不是？
She very well may be.
她很可能是。
If you look at how she’s built her career, it’s very possible that she will be.
如果你看看她是如何建立自己的职业生涯的，你就会发现她很可能会成为这样的人。
But who’s the next Harrison Ford?
但谁是下一个哈里森·福特？
It’s a big gap, right?
这是一个很大的差距，对吧？
Thirty years, and it’s not clear who you would put in that same post.
三十年了，尚不清楚你会让谁担任同一个职位。
Well, how old should .
嗯，应该多大。
.
。
.
。
I’m not asking it rhetorically.
我不是在修辞上问这个问题。
In your mind, how old should that person be now?
在你的心目中，那个人现在应该多大？
Where on the continuum?
在连续体的哪个位置？
53, and they’ve been doing it for 16 years and have at least three or four excellent movies under their belt.
53岁，他们已经这样做了16年，至少拍了三四部优秀的电影。
Perhaps Bradley Cooper.
也许是布莱德利·库珀。
Let’s see what happens with the Bernstein film because perhaps Bradley Cooper is that person.
让我们看看伯恩斯坦的电影会发生什么，因为也许布莱德利·库珀就是那个人。
Perhaps Matt Damon is that person.
也许马特·达蒙就是那个人。
It’s a difficult question because you’re really asking, I think, about what happened to the movie industry.
这是一个很难回答的问题，因为我认为你实际上是在问电影业发生了什么。
Let’s adjust, so life expectancy and how long one can do this.
让我们调整一下预期寿命以及一个人能做到这一点的时间。
Is Tom Cruise at 60 Harrison Ford at 53, and if so, is Tom Cruise that person?
汤姆·克鲁斯 (Tom Cruise) 60 岁哈里森·福特 (Harrison Ford) 53 岁吗？如果是，汤姆·克鲁斯 (Tom Cruise) 就是那个人吗？
Also, of course, there’s the question of mystery and all that stuff, right?
当然，还有神秘之类的问题，对吧？
We didn’t know anything about Jack, or we knew funny things about Jack or Pacino.
我们对杰克一无所知，或者我们知道关于杰克或帕西诺的有趣的事情。
Also, those guys are still doing it.
而且，那些家伙仍然在这样做。
Those people are still making movies.
那些人还在拍电影。
Bogie died.
转向架死了。
The generation before those guys just died.
这些人的前一代刚刚去世。
William Holden and Bogie — they died off and created room, but as you say, you still have Harrison doing this stuff.
威廉·霍尔顿和转向架——他们消失了并创造了空间，但正如你所说，你仍然让哈里森做这些事情。
I’m sure that you — as is the case with myself — you know many very smart people who just don’t understand movies very well.
我确信你 ——就像我自己一样 ——你认识很多非常聪明的人，但他们不太了解电影。
If you show them Tarkovsky’s Solaris, they’d be bored, no matter how big the screen.
如果你给他们看塔可夫斯基的《飞向太空》，无论屏幕有多大，他们都会感到无聊。
If you had to explain, in as few dimensions as possible, what differentiates the really smart people who get movies from the really smart people who do not get movies, what’s going on there?
If you had to explain, in as few dimensions as possible, what differentiates the really smart people who get movies from the really smart people who do not get movies, what’s going on there?
Perhaps openness, perhaps the ability to not have to analyze in real time and to experience — and perhaps it’s a gateway thing.
也许是开放性，也许是不必实时分析和体验的能力——也许这是一个门户。
I find Casablanca is a remarkable tool to solve this problem because Kane is slow.
我发现卡萨布兰卡是解决这个问题的一个出色的工具，因为凯恩很慢。
Citizen Kane is slow, and Citizen Kane is very much a masterpiece with a capital M.
《公民凯恩》节奏缓慢，《公民凯恩》是一部大写M的杰作。
Casablanca sneaks up on you.
卡萨布兰卡悄悄靠近你。
Casablanca is just fun.
卡萨布兰卡很有趣。
It’s fun from moment one.
从一开始就很有趣。
Citizen Kane is portentous — not pretentious, but portentous, right?
《公民凯恩》是不祥的——不是自命不凡，而是不祥，对吧？
From the moment it starts, you understand you’re supposed to take something very seriously.
从开始的那一刻起，你就明白你应该非常认真地对待某件事。
It’s in everything that Welles does.
威尔斯所做的一切都是如此。
Casablanca is a delight.
卡萨布兰卡是一个令人愉快的地方。
I have never met anyone immune to Casablanca’s charms, so it’s a gateway into understanding what makes great cinema, because if you get them .
I have never met anyone immune to Casablanca’s charms, so it’s a gateway into understanding what makes great cinema, because if you get them .
.
。
.
。
Now, a lot of people are resistant to sitting down and turning it on, or sitting down and watching it.
现在，很多人都不愿意坐下来打开它，或者坐下来观看它。
But if you get someone to watch 10 minutes of Casablanca, and 10 minutes in, you go, “Hey, all right, cool.
但如果你让某人看了 10 分钟的《卡萨布兰卡》，然后 10 分钟后，你会说：“嘿，好吧，酷。
You tried, let’s go,” they’re like, “No, no, no, what happens?” Then you’ve got them.
你试过了，我们走吧，”他们说，“不，不，不，会发生什么？”然后你就得到了它们。
I do find it to be an incredible thing to hook people.
我确实发现吸引人们是一件不可思议的事情。
I think All the President’s Men is another great example of a film that does that because right away, you are in this mystery.
我认为《总统班底》是这部电影的另一个很好的例子，因为你立刻就陷入了这个谜团之中。
It doesn’t announce itself as proper cinema, but it is proper cinema.
它没有宣称自己是真正的电影，但它就是真正的电影。
It deploys all the tools of proper cinema.
它部署了适当电影的所有工具。
It’s another gateway film, as is Raiders, the first one.
这是另一部入门电影，就像第一部《攻略》一样。
Then I guess there are some people who could stand in front of a painting, and it just doesn’t move them.
然后我想有些人可以站在一幅画前，但它却无法感动他们。
Maybe they think, “Well, I don’t like paintings.” Maybe they don’t like Caravaggio, but maybe they like Jasper Johns.
也许他们会想：“好吧，我不喜欢绘画。”也许他们不喜欢卡拉瓦乔，但也许他们喜欢贾斯珀·琼斯。
They don’t know that they like Jasper Johns because they would never go look at a Jasper Johns.
他们不知道自己喜欢 Jasper Johns，因为他们永远不会去看 Jasper Johns。
Or they don’t like Jasper Johns, but suddenly, they see something else that speaks to them.
或者他们不喜欢贾斯珀·琼斯，但突然间，他们看到了其他能吸引他们的东西。
Poetry functions the same way, right, Tyler?
诗歌的作用是一样的，对吧，泰勒？
Why are people immune to poetry, and other people — it just speaks to them?
为什么人们对诗歌免疫，而其他人——诗歌只是对他们说话？
I see a clump distribution when it comes to cinema and Americans.
当谈到电影和美国人时，我看到了一种集中分布。
Almost everyone I know quite likes Casablanca, but they draw a line somewhere, just as people will draw a line, maybe, with modern art or abstract art.
Almost everyone I know quite likes Casablanca, but they draw a line somewhere, just as people will draw a line, maybe, with modern art or abstract art.
They won’t love Fellini or Bergman or whatever else you want to put on that list.
他们不会喜欢费里尼或伯格曼或任何你想列入名单的人。
Who crosses that line, and who doesn’t?
谁跨越了这条线，谁没有？
Oh, that’s interesting.
哦，这很有趣。
Well, okay.
好吧，好吧。
Is it like this, though?
是这样的吗？
I don’t understand atonal composition.
我不懂无调性作曲。
I don’t enjoy atonal composition.
我不喜欢无调性作曲。
I understand what it is as an exercise, but as a listener, I don’t want to put in what I would have to put in to get out of it what some of my friends perhaps get out of it.
I understand what it is as an exercise, but as a listener, I don’t want to put in what I would have to put in to get out of it what some of my friends perhaps get out of it.
It’s like Bergman.
就像伯格曼一样。
I was once talking to an author who I admire a great deal, Mark Helprin.
我曾经和一位我非常敬佩的作家马克·赫尔普林（Mark Helprin）交谈过。
Mark Helprin who wrote A Soldier of the Great War and Winter’s Tale, not the political journalist.
马克·赫普林是《一战士兵》和《冬天的故事》的作者，而不是政治记者。
They’re different people — not Halperin, but Helprin.
他们是不同的人 ——不是哈尔珀林，而是赫尔普林。
He talked about the emotional cost of reading novels after 50, and the way a novel can stir you up, because the best novels are about death, essentially.
他谈到了 50 岁以后阅读小说的情感成本，以及小说如何激发你的激情，因为最好的小说本质上都是关于死亡的。
Whether they are or they aren’t, they are, right?
不管他们是或不是，他们都是，对吗？
Right.
正确的。
The best movies — Bergman is about death.
最好的电影 — 伯格曼是关于死亡的。
Bergman is about impermanence, right?
伯格曼讲的是无常，对吗？
All the great works of art, in some way or another, are about impermanence, and people often don’t want to deal with impermanence.
所有伟大的艺术作品都以某种方式讲述无常，而人们往往不想面对无常。
You have to decide how you’re going to deal with that when engaging with art, because when art can affect you that deeply — in a way that it makes you think about impermanence — maybe you don’t consider that a good time.
You have to decide how you’re going to deal with that when engaging with art, because when art can affect you that deeply — in a way that it makes you think about impermanence — maybe you don’t consider that a good time.
Maybe you can watch Michael Mann, a cinematic master, make Heat because although there’s death in it, it’s not really about death.
也许你可以看看电影大师迈克尔·曼（Michael Mann）制作的《盗火线》，因为虽然里面有死亡，但它并不是真正的死亡。
It’s about consequences, and that’s entirely different.
这是关于后果的，这是完全不同的。
The other stuff is about impermanence, regardless of deserve, regardless of consequence.
其他的东西是关于无常的，无论应得的，无论结果。
I think in some way, it gets to the answer to that question.
我认为在某种程度上，它找到了这个问题的答案。
Speaking of death, what’s your favorite Hitchcock movie?
说到死亡，你最喜欢希区柯克的哪部电影？
It’s funny.
这很有趣。
I was watching him talk yesterday about the use of staircase imagery in films.
昨天我正在看他谈论电影中楼梯意象的使用。
It’s a very boring answer, but North by Northwest.
这是一个非常无聊的答案，但却是西北偏北。
I watched it pretty recently and was just blown away by it.
我最近看了它，并被它震撼了。
I would say the coldness of Hitchcock and his style of directing performance — he’s a master.
我想说希区柯克的冷酷和他的导演表演风格——他是一位大师。
He’s the greatest, but it’s not my personal favorite.
他是最伟大的，但这不是我个人最喜欢的。
There’s a difference between what we understand and can fully appreciate and what we just love.
我们所理解和能够充分欣赏的东西与我们仅仅喜欢的东西之间是有区别的。
I’m not just someone in love with his movies.
我不仅仅是一个热爱他的电影的人。
Are Jerry Lewis movies funny?
杰瑞刘易斯的电影有趣吗？
Sometimes, yes.
有时，是的。
Sometimes they are.
有时他们是。
He, as a human character, obviously is a complicated figure.
他作为一个人类角色，显然是一个复杂的人物。
I don’t go back to his movies very often.
我不经常看他的电影。
Why does comedy seem to stand the test of time less well than drama?
为什么喜剧似乎不如戏剧更经得起时间的考验？
If I watch silent movies that are supposed to be funny — there’s some Chaplin that quite speaks to me, but for the most part, I just think, “This isn’t funny.” A lot of movies from the 1950s — to me, they’re just flat-out not funny.
如果我看应该很有趣的无声电影，卓别林的某些作品对我来说很有意义，但在大多数情况下，我只是想，“这并不好笑。”很多 20 世纪 50 年代的电影——对我来说，它们根本就不好笑。
Bringing Up Baby I enjoy, but very few early comedies.
我喜欢《抚养婴儿》，但早期的喜剧很少。
What’s happening there?
那里发生了什么？
And they don’t cross borders as well either, as you know.
正如你所知，他们也不跨越国界。
A couple of answers to that.
对此有几个答案。
Comedy clearly is of its time because that applies to stand-up comedy, too.
喜剧显然是它的时代，因为这也适用于单口喜剧。
People our age — there’s literally nothing in the world that seemed funnier than the first two Steve Martin albums.
对于我们这个年纪的人来说，世界上几乎没有什么比史蒂夫·马丁的前两张专辑更有趣的了。
You could try those albums on some younger people because the world took a lot of what he did.
你可以在一些年轻人身上尝试这些专辑，因为世界接受了他所做的很多事情。
No part of what he did seems stunning or surprising now.
现在看来，他所做的一切似乎都不令人震惊或令人惊讶。
On the other hand, man, maybe it’s just about truly great stuff is what lasts because Thin Man is still as entertaining.
另一方面，伙计，也许真正伟大的东西才能持久，因为《瘦人》仍然很有趣。
If I put on Thin Man —
如果我穿上瘦人 ——
I agree.
我同意。
Even After the Thin Man, yes.
即使在瘦人之后，是的。
The first two — if you watch the first two, those movies are so fucking funny and endearing and charming and just amazing.
前两部——如果你看了前两部，那些电影真是太他妈有趣、可爱、迷人、令人惊叹了。
Maybe it’s just that they were great, and the other stuff wasn’t great.
也许只是他们很棒，其他的就不太好了。
But I’ve done the test, as I wonder if you have.
但我已经做过测试了，我想知道你是否也做过。
I’ve done the test because it’s a long time now from when Eddie Murphy and Bill Murray were in their prime, making those movies back then.
我做了这个测试，因为距离艾迪·墨菲和比尔·默里拍摄这些电影的巅峰时期已经过去很长时间了。
It’s 40, 50 years later — 40 years later, certainly.
40、50 年后了——当然是 40 年后了。
They still really work.
他们仍然确实有效。
Stripes is still very, very funny, and Trading Places is still very funny.
《条纹》仍然非常非常有趣，《交换地方》仍然非常有趣。
I agree.
我同意。
Those things can last, but Thin Man — that’s another movie that I would say to people, “If you think you don’t like old movies, watch Thin Man.”
这些事情可以持续下去，但是《瘦人》——这是另一部电影，我会对人们说，“如果你认为你不喜欢老电影，那就看《瘦人》吧。”
What’s the Steven Spielberg movie that you feel is quite deep in some underappreciated way, if you had to pick one?
如果你必须选择一部，你觉得史蒂文·斯皮尔伯格的哪部电影在某种程度上被低估了？
I don’t join the people who condemn Spielberg for being a populist.
我不同意谴责斯皮尔伯格是民粹主义者的人。
I loved the movie about him that came out last year.
我喜欢去年上映的关于他的电影。
I agree.
我同意。
I just loved it.
我只是喜欢它。
Couldn’t have loved it more, his film as memoir.
非常喜欢他的电影作为回忆录。
I loved it.
我喜欢它。
Some people really didn’t like it.
有些人确实不喜欢它。
I just have to say it was my favorite movie of the year.
我不得不说这是我今年最喜欢的电影。
I just loved it so much.
我非常喜欢它。
I think Close Encounters is a great movie.
我认为《近距离接触》是一部很棒的电影。
It’s about alienation, and I think it’s a great film.
这是关于疏离的电影，我认为这是一部很棒的电影。
E.T.
外星人
is a great film.
是一部很棒的电影。
Either of those serves.
其中任何一个都可以。
I think Close Encounters is probably the one that’s quite deep, even if on the surface, it doesn’t seem that way.
我觉得《近距离接触》可能是比较有深度的一部，虽然表面上看起来并不是那么回事。
Which is the Murakami book that is especially deep and not sufficiently appreciated?
村上春树的哪本书特别有深度却没有被充分欣赏？
I’m glad you asked.
我很高兴你问了。
I saw that somebody wondered about Murakami.
我看到有人对村上隆感到好奇。
I’m glad you asked the question.
我很高兴你问了这个问题。
For me, it’s Hard-Boiled Wonderland, but I love many of them.
对我来说，这是冷酷仙境，但我喜欢其中的很多。
That would’ve been my number two choice!
那将是我的第二选择！
I’ve been thinking about it.
我一直在想。
Ah, what’s your number one choice?
啊，你的第一选择是什么？
I think Kafka on the Shore is astonishing.
我觉得《海边的卡夫卡》很精彩。
To me, Kafka on the Shore — it works so well, and it shouldn’t work.
对我来说，《海边的卡夫卡》——它运作得很好，但它不应该运作。
It encompasses the entire experience of life and love and war.
它涵盖了生活、爱情和战争的全部经历。
It just encompasses so much, and every page is entertaining.
它包含了很多内容，而且每一页都很有趣。
The thing about Haruki Murakami, and why I think he’s the living writer that captures my imagination the most, is that he never forgets the reader.
村上春树的特点，以及为什么我认为他是最能激发我想象力的在世作家，是因为他永远不会忘记读者。
He’s completely consumed with the personal.
他完全沉迷于个人事务。
He’s completely consumed with making these things live for himself and to be fully personal expressions of how he feels and sees the world.
他全神贯注于让这些东西为自己而活，并完全个人化地表达他对世界的感受和看法。
Yet his incredible, magical, mysterious gift is that he makes every page entertaining for you, the reader.
然而，他令人难以置信的、神奇的、神秘的天赋是，他让每一页都为读者带来乐趣。
I’ve read every single Murakami book more than once, except I’ve held out two to read for when he’s no longer producing books because I want to have two that I can read later that I’ve never read.
村上春树的每一本书我都读过不止一遍，除了他不再出书时我会拿出两本来读，因为我想要两本我从未读过的书，以后可以读。
I find him a miraculous marvel.
我发现他是一个奇迹。
I’ll never forget reading Norwegian Wood for the first time and just understanding that there was somebody out there working at the highest possible level that you could work at as a writer.
我永远不会忘记第一次阅读《挪威的森林》，并了解到有人在你作为作家所能达到的最高水平上工作。
What’s your favorite book about poker and why?
您最喜欢哪一本有关扑克的书？为什么？
I know you’ve bought hundreds of them.
我知道你已经买了数百个。
I have.
我有。
There’s a little-known book.
有一本鲜为人知的书。
The books about poker that are nonfiction books — Al Alvarez’s book is perfect.
关于扑克的非小说类书籍——Al Alvarez 的书非常完美。
It’s a perfect book.
这是一本完美的书。
I highly recommend it.
我强烈推荐它。
Anthony Holden’s book is really entertaining.
安东尼·霍尔登的书真的很有趣。
Peter Olsen’s book about the World Series of Poker.
彼得·奥尔森（Peter Olsen）关于世界扑克系列赛的书。
There are many, many great poker books.
有很多很多很棒的扑克书籍。
I’m leaving so many out.
我遗漏了很多。
There’s a tiny little book called King of a Small World by Rick Bennet.
有一本小书，名叫《小世界之王》，作者是瑞克·班尼特。
I don’t even know if it’s in print.
我什至不知道它是否已印刷。
It’s 210 pages.
有210页。
It’s about Maryland poker games.
这是关于马里兰州的扑克游戏。
I’ve read that book 10 times.
我已经读了那本书十遍了。
It is a perfect encapsulation of a certain kind of poker life that existed a while back.
它是对不久前存在的某种扑克生活的完美概括。
I’m leaving books out, I’m sorry.
我把书留在外面了，抱歉。
I do have one of the biggest poker book collections.
我确实拥有最大的扑克书籍收藏之一。
I’ve been collecting poker books for 35 years.
我收集扑克书籍已有 35 年了。
How was Maryland’s poker different?
马里兰州的扑克有何不同？
Because I live in Virginia.
因为我住在弗吉尼亚州。
Those games were at like these fire stations.
那些比赛就像消防站一样。
They had to be under fake charities.
他们一定是在虚假的慈善机构下。
It’s this whole byzantine set of rules that allowed these couple hustlers to live in it.
正是这整套错综复杂的规则让这对骗子夫妇得以生活在其中。
I never got to play in that scene, and I’m glad because I would’ve been fleeced.
我从来没有演过那个场景，我很高兴，因为我会被骗。
This guy creates these incredible characters.
这个家伙创造了这些令人难以置信的角色。
This guy wrote a really special book.
这家伙写了一本非常特别的书。
Oh, I have to just mention, the other writer who I think is the best writer in the world, and he also dabbles in magic realism, and he wrote, for me, the best book ever about a person who’s in the world of gambling, and that is William Kennedy’s Billy Phelan’s Greatest Game.
哦，我不得不提一下，我认为是世界上最好的作家的另一位作家，他也涉足魔幻现实主义，对我来说，他写了关于赌博世界中的人的最好的书，那就是威廉·肯尼迪的《比利·费伦最伟大的游戏》。
Have you ever read that book?
你读过那本书吗？
No, I’ve never read it.
不，我从来没有读过。
Tyler, Kennedy, to me, is like another one of these people.
对我来说，泰勒、肯尼迪就像这些人中的另一位。
Kennedy, I think, should have won the Nobel.
我认为肯尼迪应该获得诺贝尔奖。
I think that that Albany Cycle is a stunning achievement, and I think that Billy Phelan’s Greatest Game is his best book.
我认为《奥尔巴尼自行车》是一项令人惊叹的成就，我认为《比利·费兰的最伟大的游戏》是他最好的书。
Everything that’s been about gambling since, in some way .
从某种程度上来说，从那时起，一切都与赌博有关。
.
。
.
。
This book is in the same way that David Maurer’s The Big Con, where every single con artist movie came from.
这本书就像大卫·毛雷尔的《大骗子》一样，每一部骗子电影都来自那里。
Billy Phelan’s Greatest Game is like an urtext of sorts, and I highly recommend it.
比利·费兰的《最伟大的游戏》就像是某种原始文本，我强烈推荐它。
What would be something you feel you’ve learned about the poker universe that a well-educated American is likely to simply not understand or not know about that would be surprising and nonobvious?
在扑克世界中，有哪些事情是你觉得自己所了解的，而受过良好教育的美国人可能根本不理解或不知道的，这会让你感到惊讶和不明显？
This is basic, but it’s not obvious to most people, which is you probably can’t win.
这是基本的，但对大多数人来说并不明显，这就是你可能赢不了。
When you say “probably,” where does the probably come from?
当你说“可能”时，“可能”来自哪里？
Why not just you can’t win?
为什么不只是你赢不了呢？
You may be one of those gifted freaks who can sit down and suddenly the math makes sense and reading people makes sense.
你可能是那些有天赋的怪人之一，他们可以坐下来，突然间数学变得有意义，读人也变得有意义。
But basically, if you don’t study and think about poker at least a little bit every day .
但基本上，如果你不每天至少学习一点扑克并思考一下。
.
。
.
。
I think about poker every day, and I am not a world-class poker player.
我每天都想着扑克，但我不是世界级的扑克玩家。
I track my results very closely, and I’m flat.
我非常密切地跟踪我的结果，结果很平淡。
I’m usually flat, and I play a lot of poker.
我通常性格平淡，也经常打扑克。
Being flat is a gigantic victory.
保持平坦是一个巨大的胜利。
Some years I win a little bit, and some years I lose a little bit.
有些年份我赢了一点，有些年份我输了一点。
Basically, in competitive, difficult poker games, I am flat.
基本上，在竞争激烈、困难的扑克游戏中，我表现平平。
I think about poker.
我想到了扑克。
At least, I engage in some way with materials about how to be better at poker every day.
至少，我每天都会以某种方式参与有关如何更好地打牌的材料。
That’s where it’s like chess.
这就是它就像国际象棋的地方。
It’s required, I think.
我认为这是必需的。
Oh, okay, I can tell you.
哦，好吧，我可以告诉你。
In your home game — that’s your casual Monday night game — if you have a rotating group of 12 people to make your 9 or 7 who show up, what you don’t know is that at least two of those people actually are taking it almost as seriously as their job.
在你的主场比赛中——“那是你周一晚上的休闲比赛”——如果你有一个由 12 个人组成的轮流小组，让你的 9 或 7 人出现，你不知道的是，其中至少有两个人实际上几乎像对待他们的工作一样认真地对待它。
That’s the thing that most people don’t know.
这是大多数人不知道的事情。
What’s your greatest weakness as a poker player?
作为一名扑克玩家，你最大的弱点是什么？
I think you’ll understand that I’d rather not say.
我想你会明白我宁愿不说。
Jalen Brunson — overrated or underrated?
杰伦·布伦森 — 被高估还是低估？
Underrated.
被低估了。
Let’s go!
我们走吧！
He’s properly rated now.
他现在得到了正确的评价。
That’s what I think.
我就是这么想的。
He was underrated.
他被低估了。
It’s one of the only times the Knicks got an asset below what should have been the market price for that asset.
这是尼克斯队获得低于该资产应有市场价格的资产的唯一一次。
I love him.
我爱他。
He overdelivered, which hasn’t happened since Bernard King, probably, for the Knicks, where someone just overdelivered.
他超额交付了，这可能是自伯纳德·金（Bernard King）以来尼克斯队从未发生过的，因为尼克斯队有人刚刚超额交付了。
Shohei Ohtani, though — underrated.
不过，大谷翔平被低估了。
Are the Knicks going to get Joel Embiid?
尼克斯队会得到乔尔·恩比德吗？
The Coase Theorem says they should, right?
科斯定理说他们应该这样做，对吗？
You think that he is going to force a trade?
你认为他会强迫交易吗？
He’s going to force a trade of some sort?
他会强迫进行某种交易吗？
Well, this is August of 2023, but it seems to me, at this time, not impossible that Harden leaves Philly and Embiid wants out.
好吧，现在是 2023 年 8 月，但在我看来，此时哈登离开费城、恩比德想要离开也并非不可能。
I agree.
我同意。
Not that many teams can actually attract him, and the Knicks are one of those.
真正能够吸引他的球队并不多，尼克斯就是其中之一。
Tell me if I’m wrong.
如果我错了请告诉我。
New York market, right?
纽约市场，对吗？
Yes, if he forces a trade, meaning if it’s not when he’s a free agent —
是的，如果他强迫交易，也就是说，如果他不是自由球员的话 ——
As many draft picks as the CBA will allow.
CBA 允许的尽可能多的选秀权。
Yes, but Daryl is going to want Brunson.
是的，但达里尔想要布伦森。
Daryl’s going to want Brunson.
达里尔会想要布伦森。
No, you can’t do that.
不，你不能那样做。
And you can’t do that.
但你不能那样做。
Let me just say this, and Daryl, if you’re listening — I’m friends with Daryl, as I know you know him, too — Darryl, if you’re listening, I think it’d be a great idea — just take some draft picks and give us Joel Embiid.
让我这么说吧，达里尔，如果你在听的话 —— 我是达里尔的朋友，因为我知道你也认识他 —— 达里尔，如果你在听的话，我认为这是个好主意 —— 只需拿一些选秀权，给我们乔尔·恩比德。
I think it solves all your problems.
我认为它可以解决你所有的问题。
What is it you really think of New Jersey, anyway?
无论如何，您对新泽西的真正看法是什么？
I loved Fred Armisen’s version of David Paterson when he would just say New Jersey with so much contempt.
我喜欢弗雷德·阿米森版的大卫·帕特森，他总是轻蔑地说新泽西州。
My wife’s from New Jersey.
我的妻子来自新泽西州。
I’m from Long Island originally, and she’s from New Jersey.
我来自长岛，她来自新泽西。
I always figured, no matter what, I would marry someone where they would be able to use as a trump card on me, “Well, what do you know?
我一直认为，无论如何，我都会嫁给一个可以作为对付我的王牌的人，“好吧，你知道什么？
You’re from Long Island.” But at least she’s from Jersey.
你来自长岛。”但至少她来自泽西岛。
Let’s say I’m in Manhattan, and I’m looking for good food.
假设我在曼哈顿，我正在寻找美食。
What is it you think that you might know that I do not, being a northern Virginian but ultimately from New Jersey?
作为北弗吉尼亚人但最终来自新泽西州，你认为你可能知道我不知道的是什么？
Well, David Chang is a Virginian, so he certainly figured it out.
嗯，张大卫是弗吉尼亚人，所以他当然明白这一点。
I think you should look at the places he recommends in Virginia.
我认为你应该看看他推荐的弗吉尼亚州的地方。
Just go to those places.
就去那些地方吧。
I would say, yes, a lifetime of being in this city and eating in this city, I think I’ve developed relationships with chefs.
我会说，是的，在这个城市生活了一辈子，在这个城市吃饭，我想我已经和厨师建立了关系。
I might know where chefs are eating, and that might give me some insight.
我可能知道厨师在哪里吃饭，这可能会给我一些见解。
Also, just knowing where some younger people who aren’t able to spend a lot of money are finding great food is a valuable thing to know in this city because someone’s always opening an amazing spot.
此外，在这个城市里，了解一些不能花很多钱的年轻人在哪里找到美味的食物是一件很有价值的事情，因为总有人在开一家很棒的店。
There are people here who really want to find out what that spot is before it becomes impossible to get into.
这里有人真的想在无法进入之前找出那个地方是什么。
You just learn to have an instinct for that.
你只需学会对此有一种本能。
Also, where the place that’s not hip or cool is — I’d say I really do know that.
另外，不时髦或不酷的地方是 —— 我想说我确实知道这一点。
I know the place that if you want to go to a great diner, go to Joe G’s, and don’t worry about where the internet is telling you to go.
我知道如果你想去一家很棒的餐厅，就去 Joe G’s，不用担心互联网告诉你去哪里。
If you want to get a great steak au poivre, just go to Lucien, which was really hip 20 years ago but isn’t hip now.
如果你想吃一顿美味的牛排，就去 Lucien 吧，那里在 20 年前确实很时髦，但现在已经不时髦了。
Those kinds of things.
诸如此类的事情。
I could take you to 25 uncool places, places that are not hip and not cool, where we could just have something perfectly prepared and delicious, and you would leave really happy, and there would be nothing about it that felt like you were part of a scene.
我可以带你去 25 个不酷的地方，那些不时髦、不酷的地方，在那里我们可以吃到精心准备的美味食物，你会非常高兴地离开，而且不会感觉你是某个场景的一部分。
Maybe that’s something that only someone who lives here could put together.
也许只有住在这里的人才能做到这一点。
What’s the part of town that is most ripe for further exploration in these directions?
城镇的哪个部分最适合在这些方向上进行进一步探索？
If I’m in the Upper West Side, it can be tough going, I feel.
我觉得，如果我在上西区，那会很艰难。
There aren’t that many good places.
好的地方并不多。
What’s wrong with you people?
你们怎么了？
If I’m in the East Village, I’ll do better.
如果我在东村，我会做得更好。
It’s everyone feels that way now.
现在每个人都有这样的感觉。
Then I start thinking, “Well, there’s some trick here.
然后我开始想：“嗯，这里有一些技巧。
This isn’t going to last.”
这不会持续下去。”
Well, the Upper West Side does now have New York’s best restaurant in Tatiana.
好吧，塔蒂亚娜现在在上西区拥有纽约最好的餐厅。
But other than that, you’re totally right, the Upper West Side’s been a wasteland for food.
但除此之外，你是完全正确的，上西区一直是食物的荒地。
There are practical reasons, because that’s a neighborhood people move to to raise kids, and they’re not going out to eat as much.
这是有实际原因的，因为那是人们搬去抚养孩子的社区，他们不会经常出去吃饭。
They’re at home.
他们在家。
Whereas the West Village or the Lower East Side or Midtown East or over in Koreatown — there’s just so much great stuff that’s unexplored.
而西村、下东区、中城东或韩国城 ——则有很多很棒的东西有待探索。
Let’s say you could spend three days at a retreat, and you get to choose two or three other people who will show up and talk with you for those three days.
假设您可以在静修中度过三天，然后您可以选择另外两到三个人在这三天里出现并与您交谈。
Now, people in cinema — you can already do that, right?
现在，电影界的人 ——你已经可以做到了，对吧？
Maybe some other people, too.
也许还有其他一些人。
Living people — who are the two or three people you would choose?
活着的人 — 你会选择哪两三个人？
Well, can these be friends of mine?
那么，这些可以是我的朋友吗？
Or you don’t want them to be friends?
或者你不想让他们成为朋友？
No, you can already do your friends.
不，你已经可以做你的朋友了。
No, you can’t do your friends.
不，你不能做你的朋友。
I can’t say Seth Godin, even though I would say Seth Godin.
我不能说塞斯·戈丁，尽管我会说塞斯·戈丁。
Well, Haruki Murakami — that would be great.
嗯，村上春树——那就太好了。
Even though I am not someone who has cats, I would supply them if he wanted to be there.
虽然我不是养猫的人，但如果他愿意的话我也会提供。
I will tell you, I would love to be able to talk to Donald Hoffman for a few days because it would take a few days for him to be able to find where I could understand him well enough that we could really communicate.
我会告诉你，我很想能够与唐纳德霍夫曼交谈几天，因为他需要几天时间才能找到我可以充分理解他的地方，以便我们可以真正进行交流。
I would want to take that time to really understand his theory about what reality is.
我想花时间真正理解他关于现实是什么的理论。
I feel that would be an incredibly useful thing, to be able to sit with him and get the building blocks so that I could begin to understand where he is.
我觉得这将是一件非常有用的事情，能够和他坐在一起并获得积木，这样我就可以开始了解他在哪里。
Then I think you have to say Bob Dylan because if you were able to be in a spot where Dylan was, and assuming for this game that Bob was interested in sharing.
那么我想你必须说鲍勃·迪伦，因为如果你能够处于迪伦所在的位置，并假设鲍勃有兴趣分享这个游戏。
He wouldn’t have to share autobiographical details.
他不必分享自传细节。
Like you, I’ve read, I know all the things, but if I assume that Dylan is perhaps the wisest person, he must be the smartest person.
和你一样，我读过，我知道所有的事情，但如果我认为迪伦可能是最聪明的人，他一定是最聪明的人。
He’s an accident of nature, and he’s, let’s say, the smartest human walking around.
他是大自然的偶然，可以说，他是世界上最聪明的人。
I would want to understand what it is that he understands if there were a way he could explain that to me.
如果他能有办法向我解释的话，我想了解他所理解的是什么。
You have a career.
你有一份事业。
Dylan has a career.
迪伦有自己的事业。
What do you think you can learn from his career?
您认为您可以从他的职业生涯中学到什么？
Well, I said this to Paul Schrader on my podcast once.
嗯，我曾经在我的播客上对保罗·施拉德说过这句话。
I don’t know, Bob Dylan’s ability .
我不知道鲍勃·迪伦的能力。
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For instance, he said that he wrote the Kennedy song.
例如，他说肯尼迪之歌是他写的。
There was some interview that he gave where he’s like, “Yes, I wrote this song.” He said something about where in time he wrote it that was just not true because he didn’t want to talk about the fact of when he’d actually come up with it, which was recently to comment about the world we were really living in.
在接受采访时，他说：“是的，这首歌是我写的。”他说了一些关于他在什么时间写下这篇文章的事情，但这并不属实，因为他不想谈论他何时真正想出这篇文章的事实，这是最近对我们真正生活的世界的评论。
I think he told some story about writing it seven years ago or something like that.
我想他讲了一些七年前写这本书的故事或者类似的事情。
I think he’s great at taking pressure off himself throughout his career from any externality.
我认为他很擅长在整个职业生涯中减轻来自任何外部因素的压力。
I think the clue is what he said when he won that award, when he said, “My father said to me that a man can debase himself so much that even his own family will turn his back on them, but God never will.” I tie that to the thing he wrote in the book of lyrics, that poem he wrote about Woody — not “Song to Woody,” but that poem he wrote about Woody, when he talks about going to the hospital to visit Woody.
我认为线索就是他在获奖时所说的话，当时他说：“我父亲对我说，一个人可以如此贬低自己，以至于连他自己的家人都会背弃他们，但上帝永远不会。”我把这和他在歌词书中写的那首关于伍迪的诗联系起来——不是《献给伍迪的歌》，而是他写的关于伍迪的诗，当时他谈到要去医院看望伍迪。
Woody Guthrie, for those who don’t know — I know you know, but just people who don’t know — when he goes to the hospital to visit Woody, and Woody let him clean his bedpans and stuff because Woody wanted to show Bob that no man should be a hero to another man, that he was just a person.
伍迪·格思里，对于那些不知道的人——我知道你知道，但只是那些不知道的人——当他去医院看望伍迪时，伍迪让他清理便盆之类的东西，因为伍迪想让鲍勃知道，没有人应该成为另一个人的英雄，他只是一个人。
He produced this work because of what he was willing to do to himself to produce this work.
他之所以创作出这部作品，是因为他愿意为创作这部作品而对自己做一些事情。
I think there’s something about that moment, and Bob saying the thing about debasing himself, and all the shit he made up in Chronicles — the lesson is that none of the externalities matter.
我认为那一刻是有道理的，鲍勃说的是贬低自己的话，以及他在《编年史》中编造的所有狗屎——教训是，任何外部性都不重要。
Yes, Bob wanted success, and it’s always confusing with Bob because he’s a multi-headed hydra and all that stuff.
是的，鲍勃想要成功，但这总是让鲍勃感到困惑，因为他是多头九头蛇之类的东西。
But at core, he is this writer who always found a way to hear only his own voice and to have the confidence and comfort to then serve and produce that voice only for those people who were willing to try to hear it.
但从本质上讲，他是一位作家，总是找到一种方法来只听到自己的声音，并有信心和安慰，然后只为那些愿意尝试听到它的人服务和产生这种声音。
I think, as any kind of an artist, that’s almost impossible to do.
我认为，作为任何类型的艺术家，这几乎是不可能做到的。
You tell yourself you can, but it’s very difficult to do it because there’s all sorts of other considerations that come into play.
你告诉自己你可以，但要做到这一点非常困难，因为还有各种各样的其他考虑因素在起作用。
It seems to me that only Dylan and Miles and Chuck Berry were able and willing to do that.
在我看来，只有迪伦、迈尔斯和查克·贝瑞能够并且愿意这样做。
Bruce had Jon Landau, who he could bounce this stuff off to make a third thing out of it.
布鲁斯有乔恩·兰道（Jon Landau），他可以将这些东西反弹回来，用它来制作第三种东西。
REM did that for five years, but Bob has done that for 60 years.
REM 这样做了五年，但 Bob 已经这样做了 60 年。
It’s crazy.
太疯狂了。
Do you think that the read I have of Dylan and what he does — does it line up with your read?
你认为我对迪伦及其所做的事情的解读与你的解读相符吗？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
“Study the past” is another career lesson from Dylan, I think, and just keep on going, be willing to reinvent yourself, and choose your audiences wisely, the ones you care about.
我认为，“研究过去”是迪伦的另一个职业教训，只要继续前进，愿意重塑自己，并明智地选择你的观众，即你关心的观众。
Yes.
是的。
Be willing to reinvent yourself, not in the .
愿意重塑自己，而不是陷入困境。
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David Bowie is a great artist, too, but a different kind of artist.
大卫·鲍伊也是一位伟大的艺术家，但他是一位不同类型的艺术家。
To me, anyway, not reinvent yourself to fit the times, but be willing to reinvent yourself because it’s what your inner voice is telling you you need to do to stay an artist, I think is what he’s doing.
无论如何，对我来说，不是为了适应时代而重塑自己，而是愿意重塑自己，因为这是你内心的声音告诉你你需要做的事情才能成为一名艺术家，我认为这就是他正在做的事情。
Yes.
是的。
Last few questions.
最后几个问题。
How happy are people in the movie business?
电影行业的人们有多幸福？
When the strike’s over, thrilled.
罢工结束后，兴奋不已。
But in general, it’s this long-standing cliché — someone wants to be a movie star, wants to be a director.
但总的来说，这是一个长期存在的陈词滥调——“有人想成为电影明星，想成为导演。”
At the end of that pot of gold, are people happier than average, less happy?
拿到第一桶金后，人们是比平均水平更快乐，还是更不快乐？
Vishy Anand — I interviewed him two weeks ago.
Vishy Anand — 我两周前采访了他。
He said he thinks the top chess players are really happy.
他说他认为顶级棋手真的很幸福。
Would you say the same about your line of work?
您对您的工作也这么说吗？
When engaged in the work.
从事工作时。
On set, doing the work — that’s the time that people are really taking flight.
在片场做工作 ——那是人们真正起飞的时候。
The rest of it, I think, for people, at times, can be hard because of a series of pressures and things.
我认为，对于人们来说，有时，由于一系列的压力和事情，剩下的事情可能会很困难。
There are some people who seem to be able to be happy, but I don’t know that it draws happy people to it.
有些人似乎能够快乐，但我不知道它是否能吸引快乐的人。
I don’t know that if you’re happy, you feel like this is the form of expression that you need to engage in.
我不知道如果你感到快乐，你会觉得这就是你需要参与的表达形式。
But I do think, in the making of something that you care about, I think that’s where there’s a lot of joy.
但我确实认为，在制作你关心的东西时，我认为这就是有很多快乐的地方。
At the meta level, what did you learn from your dad?
在元层面上，你从你父亲那里学到了什么？
Obviously, very particular things, but viewed largely.
显然，这是非常特殊的事情，但从很大程度上来看。
It’s an enormous question.
这是一个巨大的问题。
He only died seven months ago, so it’s a hard question.
他七个月前才去世，所以这是一个很难回答的问题。
It’s obviously the question I’m thinking about the answer to a lot.
显然，这是我经常思考的问题的答案。
I would say there are the basic things like loyalty, which I mean, but I would suggest I’ve thought a lot about .
我会说有一些基本的东西，比如忠诚度，我的意思是，但我建议我已经考虑了很多。
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My dad was somebody who never felt intimidated to have any conversation with anybody.
我父亲是一个从不害怕与任何人交谈的人。
This idea that no one is better than anyone else was important to him, even if it might not have seemed like that.
“没有人比其他人更好”这一想法对他来说很重要，即使看起来可能并非如此。
That is, he had a really egalitarian idea about people’s capacity and that you had to keep your eyes open because greatness could show up at any given moment.
也就是说，他对人们的能力有一个真正平等的想法，你必须睁大眼睛，因为伟大可能在任何特定时刻出现。
That is something I’ve carried with me.
那是我随身携带的东西。
I think he probably wouldn’t have expressed his curiosity in the way I express my curiosity, but he had a similar kind of curiosity and appreciation for greatness.
我想他可能不会像我表达好奇心那样表达他的好奇心，但他也有类似的好奇心和对伟大事物的欣赏。
I think that I chase greatness in the same way that he did.
我想我和他一样追求伟大。
At the meta level, what did you learn from your mom?
在元层面上，你从你妈妈那里学到了什么？
How to love people with your whole heart and not hold back.
如何全心全意地去爱一个人，而不是有所保留。
Is there an unrealized dream or project you have — again, current conditions aside, but that somehow the world won’t let you make it?
你是否有一个未实现的梦想或项目 ——再次，抛开目前的条件不谈，但不知何故世界不让你实现？
We always wanted to make Billy Phelan’s Greatest Game.
我们一直想制作《比利·费伦最伟大的游戏》。
It’s set in Albany in 1910, and it’s a really very difficult kind of a thing.
故事发生在 1910 年的奥尔巴尼，这确实是一件非常困难的事情。
It’s got magic realism in it, but if you could somehow .
它有魔幻现实主义色彩，但如果你能做到的话。
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I’ll tell you, there are two things.
我告诉你，有两件事。
The other thing is American Tabloid, which is one of the greatest things ever written about what’s at the heart of a certain kind of America.
另一件事是《美国小报》，它是有史以来关于某种美国的核心内容的最伟大的文章之一。
James Ellroy’s American Tabloid clearly, to me, is best, the book that’s going to live on of his.
对我来说，詹姆斯·艾尔罗伊的《美国小报》显然是最好的，这本书将继续流传。
Black Dahlia can too, same with L.A.
黑色大丽花也可以，和洛杉矶一样。
Confidential, but for me, American Tabloid was this guy at the moment in his life as an artist when he was firing on all cylinders.
保密，但对我来说，《美国小报》就是这个人在他作为艺术家的生活中全速前进的那一刻。
Before, even to himself, they became — tropes is the wrong word.
在此之前，甚至对他自己来说，它们都变成了“比喻”这个词是错误的。
I don’t mean it negatively, but he hadn’t fallen into a groove yet.
我并没有消极的意思，但他还没有陷入困境。
Even The Cold Six Thousand is almost in reaction to American Tabloid, whereas American Tabloid is its own thing.
就连《冷六千》也几乎是对《美国小报》的反应，而《美国小报》却是它自己的东西。
To me, what’s at the heart of American Tabloid could just be the most staggering and crushing television series.
对我来说，《美国小报》的核心可能就是最令人震惊和震撼的电视剧。
It’s been very hard to try to do that.
尝试做到这一点非常困难。
That would be an amazing thing to be able to do.
能够做到这一点将是一件了不起的事情。
I can see the problem with Albany, 1910, but American Tabloid sounds commercially viable to me at some point.
我可以看到《奥尔巴尼，1910》的问题，但《美国小报》在某种程度上对我来说在商业上是可行的。
People have owned it.
人们已经拥有了它。
It’s just challenging to put together.
把它们放在一起是很有挑战性的。
Final question: what is the next thing you will set your mind to learning about?
最后一个问题：您下定决心要学习的下一件事是什么？
I want to take my knowledge of opera up a huge amount.
我想增加我对歌剧的了解。
Opera would be one thing because I didn’t like it till I was 52 years old.
歌剧是一回事，因为我直到 52 岁才喜欢它。
I really like it now, but only some, and I don’t understand why yet.
我现在真的很喜欢它，但只是一些，我还不明白为什么。
I have no idea why I put on one piece and I love it, and I put on another and I don’t dig it at all.
我不知道为什么我穿上一件我很喜欢它，而我穿上另一件我根本不喜欢它。
I’m curious about that.
我对此很好奇。
That’s a simple little one.
这是一个简单的小事。
Then the bigger one for me is related to physical fitness and working out.
对我来说更重要的是身体健康和锻炼。
I’ve been working out a lot, and I want to see if I can return myself at 60 — I’m 57 — by 60, if I can somehow turn myself back into the basketball player I was at 30.
我一直在锻炼，我想看看我是否能在 60 岁之前恢复到 60 岁——我现在 57 岁——到 60 岁，如果我能以某种方式让自己回到 30 岁时的篮球运动员。
If you send me your Korean movie recommendations, I’ll send you my opera.
如果你把你推荐的韩国电影发给我，我就把我的歌剧发给你。
Brian Koppelman, thank you very much.
布莱恩·科佩尔曼，非常感谢你。
Thanks, Tyler.
谢谢，泰勒。
This is great.
这太棒了。