Brian Armstrong on the Crypto Economy (Ep. 115)
Hello, everyone.
大家好。
Welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
欢迎回到与泰勒对话。
I am very honored to be here with Brian Armstrong, who is the CEO and co-founder of Coinbase.
我非常荣幸能与 Coinbase 的首席执行官兼联合创始人布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗 (Brian Armstrong) 在一起。
Brian, welcome.
布莱恩，欢迎。
Thank you, Tyler.
谢谢你，泰勒。
I appreciate it.
我很感激。
Now, on another podcast, you said that Coinbase employs about 60 or 70 lawyers.
现在，在另一个播客中，您说 Coinbase 雇佣了大约 60 或 70 名律师。
What makes a manager good at managing lawyers in particular?
是什么让管理者特别擅长管理律师？
I’m not sure if it’s too different from general management of people.
我不确定这与一般的人员管理是否有太大不同。
I think you have to care about them and care about their growth and give them clear direction, but also autonomy and accountability and all those things.
我认为你必须关心他们，关心他们的成长，给他们明确的方向，但也要有自主权和责任感以及所有这些东西。
I’m not sure what is too different about managing lawyers.
我不确定管理律师有什么不同。
I think they’re people just like everybody else.
我认为他们和其他人一样都是人。
There’s a kind of tech caricature of, say, companies in the Northeast that end up being run by their lawyers.
比如说，有一种科技漫画描绘的是东北部的公司最终由他们的律师经营。
You have a company with a lot of lawyers, but it seems you haven’t ended up being run by your lawyers.
你的公司有很多律师，但你似乎并没有最终由你的律师来经营。
Yes.
是的。
Well, that’s definitely true as a cultural thing.
嗯，作为一种文化，这绝对是正确的。
I would agree with that.
我同意这一点。
There is something really important — you want the engineers to outnumber the lawyers.
有一点非常重要——你希望工程师的数量超过律师。
One of the metrics that we track inside the company is the percentage of engineering.
我们在公司内部跟踪的指标之一是工程人员的百分比。
The trouble is, if that falls too low, you start to have more people with ideas of what to do than people to actually go implement those ideas.
问题是，如果这个数字太低，那么有想法的人就会多于真正去实施这些想法的人。
The engineers get frustrated, too, because there are just endless meetings about prioritization and rejiggering roadmaps instead of spending more of your time getting the actual things done.
工程师们也会感到沮丧，因为只有无休止的关于优先级和重新调整路线图的会议，而不是花更多的时间来完成实际的事情。
So I agree with that.
所以我同意这一点。
You do need to have that engineering culture.
您确实需要拥有这种工程文化。
We also have something that we say, which is that we’re a product-led organization.
我们还想说，我们是一个以产品为主导的组织。
The product managers are considered the DRIs, or the directly responsible individuals, whose job is to go collect input from legal, from finance, from engineering, and they have to go render those final decisions so that things can keep moving forward, and we don’t get bogged down in bureaucracy.
产品经理被认为是 DRI，即直接负责人，他们的工作是从法律、财务、工程方面收集意见，他们必须做出最终决定，以便事情能够继续向前发展，而我们不会陷入官僚主义的泥潭。
It seems to me that Coinbase has had fewer regulatory issues and problems than many of its competitors.
在我看来，Coinbase 的监管问题和问题比许多竞争对手要少。
What have you done managerially to bring that about?
为了实现这一目标，你在管理上做了什么？
Again, I would say that’s probably a cultural thing that came from the very early days of Coinbase, and we’ve had to reinforce it and persist at every opportunity that we’ve gotten.
再说一遍，我想说这可能是 Coinbase 早期就产生的一种文化，我们必须强化它并坚持我们获得的每一个机会。
The thing that we did early on was that we decided we were going to be reaching out proactively to regulators, not waiting for them to come to us.
我们早期所做的事情是，我们决定主动与监管机构联系，而不是等待他们来找我们。
When we reached out to them proactively, we tried to be an educational resource, and we tried to be basically legitimate.
当我们主动与他们接触时，我们试图成为一种教育资源，并且我们试图基本上是合法的。
We’d put on a suit and tie, and we’d go in there and try to .
我们会穿上西装，打上领带，然后走进去尝试一下。
.
。
.
。
It’s amazing how, basically, if somebody reads something on the internet, their default instinct is often like, “This is something bad.
令人惊讶的是，基本上，如果有人在互联网上阅读某些内容，他们的默认本能通常是，“这很糟糕。
What are they up to?” But the minute they meet you in person, they immediately trust it more.
他们到底想干什么？”但当他们亲自见到你的那一刻，他们立即更加信任你。
That education-advocacy-outreach approach bought us a lot of goodwill along the way.
这种教育-宣传-推广的方式一路走来为我们赢得了很多善意。
Then that translated into a bunch of other things like we proactively went out and got licenses before it was even clear that we needed them.
然后，这转化为一系列其他事情，比如我们在明确需要许可证之前就主动出去获得许可证。
We were essentially pushing the industry forward and saying, “We think this should be a regulated, trusted industry.” Otherwise, we felt like cryptocurrency was always going to be in the shadows, or someone was going to try to shut it down.
我们本质上是在推动行业向前发展，并表示：“我们认为这应该是一个受监管、值得信赖的行业。”否则，我们觉得加密货币总是会处于阴影之中，或者有人会试图关闭它。
Now, you’ve described yourself as an introvert.
现在，您将自己描述为一个内向的人。
Which personality traits do you have that make you so good at reaching out to regulators?
您的哪些性格特征使您如此擅长与监管机构接触？
That seems like a contradiction.
这似乎是一个矛盾。
Or is it that an introvert is better at doing that somehow?
或者说内向的人更擅长这样做？
Well, in the early days of the company, I think, as a founder, you do a lot of things that don’t scale.
嗯，在公司的早期，我认为，作为创始人，你做了很多无法规模化的事情。
I was able to go reach out to some of those.
我能够联系其中的一些人。
Fred Ehrsam, who co-founded Coinbase with me, did a lot of it, and he’s probably more of an extrovert than I am.
与我共同创立 Coinbase 的 Fred Ehrsam 做了很多这样的事，他可能比我更外向。
But over time, of course, your job is to not do everything yourself but find the people who can go replicate that and do it even better than you can.
但随着时间的推移，当然，你的工作不是自己做所有事情，而是找到可以复制这些事情并比你做得更好的人。
I’m the master of nothing, but I can dabble in almost any piece to fill in the gaps when the company is being built over time.
我什么都不精通，但我几乎可以涉足任何领域，以填补公司建设过程中的空白。
If you were to explain to our listeners in 10 words or fewer, what is Coinbase, what’s your answer?
如果您用 10 个或更少的字数向我们的听众解释什么是 Coinbase，您的答案是什么？
Let’s see if I can do it in under 10 words: The primary financial accounts for the crypto economy.
让我们看看我能否用 10 个字来完成：加密经济的主要财务账户。
What is it that you know about how the company, as a corporate form, will change over the next 20 years?
您对公司作为企业形式在未来 20 年将发生怎样的变化了解多少？
Because you work with crypto, a lot of which is very decentralized, but you’re just a company run by people.
因为你使用加密货币，其中很多都是非常去中心化的，但你只是一家由人经营的公司。
In a sense, you’re a regular company, so you straddle the two worlds.
从某种意义上说，你是一家普通公司，所以你横跨两个世界。
What do you understand that the rest of us don’t?
你明白什么是我们其他人不明白的？
Well, I would hesitate to say that I know for sure anything’s going to happen in the next 20 years, but I’ll tell you where I think the corporation could go.
好吧，我不太愿意说我确信未来 20 年内会发生任何事情，但我会告诉你我认为公司会走向何方。
It may not even be a corporation in the traditional sense, but it’s an organization on how people come together to get things done.
它甚至可能不是传统意义上的公司，但它是一个让人们聚集在一起完成工作的组织。
One of the brilliant things that’s been created in crypto is this idea of a smart contract.
加密货币中创造的辉煌事物之一就是智能合约的想法。
Instead of using lawyers to write on a piece of paper a contract between people, you can essentially codify these principles in software in code and run it on a global, decentralized blockchain, which is something that Ethereum allowed us to do, this idea of a smart contract.
您不必使用律师在纸上写下人与人之间的合同，而是可以将这些原则编入代码中的软件中，并在全球性的、去中心化的区块链上运行，这是以太坊允许我们做的事情，即智能合约的想法。
That’s a nebulous idea, but what ended up happening in practice was people started creating these decentralized autonomous organizations, or DAOs, and it allowed people all over the world to come participate in these groups.
这是一个模糊的想法，但最终在实践中发生的是人们开始创建这些去中心化的自治组织（DAO），并且它允许世界各地的人们参与这些团体。
This is all very early-stage stuff, but they started, for instance, raising money and then having voting proposals about how to allocate that money, all happening in a decentralized way.
这都是非常早期的事情，但他们开始筹集资金，然后就如何分配这笔钱提出投票提案，所有这些都以去中心化的方式进行。
None of the participants even knew who the other people were in certain instances.
在某些情况下，参与者甚至都不知道其他人是谁。
In some cases, they raised a billion dollars in 17 minutes from 20,000 people all over the world, and they’d never even met.
在某些情况下，他们在 17 分钟内从世界各地的 20,000 人那里筹集了 10 亿美元，而他们甚至从未见过面。
These new kinds of things had come together.
这些新事物聚集在一起。
Some of them exploded, by the way, in spectacular fashion, but it is creating a really new governance model out there.
顺便说一句，其中一些以惊人的方式爆炸了，但它正在创造一种真正新的治理模式。
One of the organizations that I like that has a good demo of this — it’s called Oregon, and they’ve allowed anybody to come in, create one of these smart contracts in a very simple interface, and you can set up the voting structure, the governance, how rewards might happen, how funds could be allocated.
我喜欢的一个组织有一个很好的演示——它叫俄勒冈州，他们允许任何人进来，在一个非常简单的界面中创建其中一个智能合约，你可以设置投票结构、治理、奖励如何发生、资金如何分配。
It’s almost like a new jurisdiction.
这几乎就像一个新的司法管辖区。
A lot of companies or corporations in the US, at least, are incorporated in Delaware.
至少，美国的许多公司或公司都是在特拉华州注册成立的。
That’s the jurisdiction that has a lot of case law around it.
这个司法管辖区有很多判例法。
But you can almost think of these DAOs as operating in a new online jurisdiction that doesn’t have a direct link to somewhere in the physical world, but there are, of course, real people in the real world all over the place interacting with them.
但你几乎可以将这些 DAO 视为在一个新的在线管辖区中运行，该管辖区与现实世界中的某个地方没有直接联系，但当然，现实世界中到处都有真人与它们互动。
That’s interesting, exciting, and a lot of things can happen from that.
这很有趣、令人兴奋，而且很多事情都可能发生。
But you don’t run Coinbase that way, right?
但你不会以这种方式运营 Coinbase，对吗？
So why aren’t you very skeptical of decentralized systems?
那么，您为什么对去中心化系统不持怀疑态度呢？
You still have the Oracle problem — how to connect the smart contract to actual events in the world, and who verifies what has happened.
你仍然面临着预言机问题——如何将智能合约与世界上的实际事件联系起来，以及由谁来验证发生了什么。
And then decentralized systems can be very slow to improve because no one owns the thing who can just come in and fix it, just like the English language is a mess.
然后去中心化系统的改进可能会非常缓慢，因为没有人拥有可以介入并修复它的东西，就像英语是一团糟一样。
Aren’t you actually just a lover of more or less centralized systems, and in your bones, you’re skeptical about decentralization?
您实际上不只是或多或少集中化系统的爱好者，并且在骨子里对权力下放持怀疑态度吗？
Well, I wouldn’t say that.
好吧，我不会这么说。
When Coinbase started, of course, Ethereum hadn’t even been invented, so we started with the default path that was the best thing at that time.
当然，当 Coinbase 开始时，以太坊还没有被发明，所以我们从当时最好的默认路径开始。
I do think that decentralization is incredibly important.
我确实认为权力下放非常重要。
Obviously, Coinbase is a centralized institution, but we’re one of many centralized institutions that are interacting with the decentralized crypto protocols, and they all have some level of interoperability, right?
显然，Coinbase 是一个中心化机构，但我们是与去中心化加密协议交互的众多中心化机构之一，而且它们都具有一定程度的互操作性，对吗？
If you decide one day that you don’t like Coinbase, or they’re doing something that is not in your interest, then you can send your cryptocurrency off of Coinbase, and it’s fully compatible with any other private company that might be interacting in that space.
如果有一天你决定不喜欢 Coinbase，或者他们正在做一些不符合你利益的事情，那么你可以将你的加密货币从 Coinbase 发送出去，并且它与可能在该领域互动的任何其他私人公司完全兼容。
There are certainly tradeoffs to decentralization.
去中心化肯定需要权衡。
You noted some of them, but I think it’s an important component that helps preserve a lot of the great properties that have made crypto successful — and the internet and any other decentralized organization.
你注意到了其中的一些，但我认为它是一个重要的组成部分，有助于保留许多使加密货币以及互联网和任何其他去中心化组织取得成功的伟大特性。
On mission statements
关于使命宣言
Why do companies have mission statements at all?
为什么公司有使命宣言？
We would all agree, “Well, companies should stay within the law, and then there’s an obligation to maximize profits.” What extra is the mission statement adding?
我们都会同意，“嗯，公司应该遵守法律，然后就有义务实现利润最大化。”使命宣言还添加了哪些额外内容？
Or is that a Straussian layering on top to make it all sound better?
或者这是施特劳斯式的分层，让一切听起来更好？
When we say, “Oh, a company should stick to its mission,” what’s wrong with just following the law and maximizing profits?
当我们说“哦，公司应该坚守自己的使命”时，仅仅遵守法律并实现利润最大化有什么问题呢？
It’s an interesting philosophical question.
这是一个有趣的哲学问题。
To me, the mission serves a different purpose.
对我来说，这次任务有不同的目的。
Let’s just take for granted you’re going to follow the law, and what you’re really doing with the mission is, you’re saying this company is aligned towards creating some good thing in the world, and it’s important for a few reasons.
让我们理所当然地假设你将遵守法律，而你真正执行的使命是，你说这家公司致力于在世界上创造一些美好的事物，并且出于以下几个原因它很重要。
One is that people don’t want to work at a company that just — its only goal is to make profit.
一是人们不想在一家仅仅以盈利为唯一目标的公司工作。
I think profit is incredibly important — don’t get me wrong — but if that’s the only thing that people are joining for, it tends to be a soulless company or something like that.
我认为利润非常重要 ——“别误会我的意思”—— 但如果这是人们加入的唯一目的，那么它往往是一家没有灵魂的公司或类似的公司。
It’s also like it’s a filter, you could say.
你可以说它就像一个过滤器。
You want to make sure that people are coming into the company for the right reasons because, as you hire more and more people, you can’t interview each of them yourself as the founder, so you have to put certain structure in place to make sure the people who are joining are all aligned towards some common vision of the world that you all want to create, and it creates that healthy culture and that selection of great people into the company, along with the motivation.
你要确保人们以正确的理由进入公司，因为当你雇用越来越多的人时，你无法以创始人的身份亲自面试每个人，因此你必须制定一定的结构，以确保加入的人都朝着你们想要创造的世界的共同愿景保持一致，这会创造健康的文化，并选择优秀的人才进入公司，并带来动力。
Those are my high-level thoughts, I guess.
我想这些是我的高层次想法。
But say someone came along and offered you a million bitcoins to breed green rabbits, and that would make the company a lot of money.
但是假设有人愿意给你一百万比特币来饲养绿色兔子，这会让公司赚很多钱。
It’s probably not in your current mission statement, but at some margin, you would consider doing it, right?
这可能不在你当前的使命宣言中，但在某种程度上，你会考虑这样做，对吗？
There’s like a mission statement above the mission statement?
使命宣言上面有一个使命宣言吗？
Or how does one think about that?
或者人们如何看待这一点？
Well, there’s this inherent tension, I think, in all companies, which is that you have this ultimate vision of the world that you want to see, but you also need to hire a bunch of people and make payroll every month.
嗯，我认为，所有公司都存在这种固有的紧张关系，那就是你对世界有你想看到的终极愿景，但你也需要雇用一群人并每月支付工资。
And the more people you can bring into the company to help get you there, get you there faster.
你可以让越多的人加入公司来帮助你实现目标，你就能更快地实现目标。
Companies often have the thing that makes money, and that’s a step on the path to this longer-term vision.
公司通常拥有赚钱的东西，这是实现这一长期愿景的一步。
Of course, Google makes most of their money from ad words.
当然，谷歌的大部分收入来自广告词。
Selling ads is not the sexiest mission in the world, but they obviously funnel the revenue from that into many world-changing products.
销售广告并不是世界上最性感的使命，但他们显然将由此产生的收入转化为许多改变世界的产品。
Or Tesla — they want to eliminate the world’s dependence on fossil fuels, but they had to start by selling a car to rich people to get the economies of scale working.
或者特斯拉——他们希望消除世界对化石燃料的依赖，但他们必须从向富人出售汽车开始，才能发挥规模经济的作用。
I would say that’s somewhat true in our case for Coinbase as well, by the way.
顺便说一句，我想说，对于 Coinbase 来说，这在某种程度上也是正确的。
Most of our revenue today we make from trading fees.
今天我们的大部分收入来自交易费用。
It’s not like I’m super passionate about people investing in speculative assets or something like that, or trading just as a stand-alone business.
我并不是非常热衷于人们投资投机资产或类似的东西，或者只是将交易作为一项独立的业务。
I’m passionate about it because I want there to be more economic freedom in the world, and trading is one of those really important businesses.
我对此充满热情，因为我希望世界上有更多的经济自由，而贸易是真正重要的业务之一。
We’re making more of them with Custody and all these other things.
我们正在通过托管和所有其他东西制作更多这样的东西。
Those are the things that are helping us get the thousands of people aligned and paid to go accomplish the bigger mission of the company.
这些事情正在帮助我们让成千上万的员工团结一致并获得报酬，以完成公司更大的使命。
You’ve been critical of other companies for going beyond their mission statements and doing, for instance, politics.
您一直批评其他公司超出其使命宣言并从事政治活动等行为。
But if it is the case that other values stand above the mission statement in any case in every company, what’s wrong with that?
但如果在任何情况下，每家公司的其他价值观都高于使命宣言，那又有什么问题呢？
Why can’t that be part of their meta mission statement?
为什么这不能成为他们的元使命宣言的一部分？
I think every company could do that on their own, so I don’t have any issue with other companies choosing to do that.
我认为每个公司都可以自己做到这一点，所以我对其他公司选择这样做没有任何问题。
They might actually clarify that in their mission statement, which is that their mission is to serve the ultimate human good or something more broad which could include activism or politics or something like that.
他们实际上可能会在他们的使命宣言中澄清这一点，即他们的使命是为人类的最终利益或更广泛的目标服务，其中可能包括激进主义或政治或类似的东西。
In our case, my view is that the mission, which was to create an open financial system for the world — that might involve interacting with governments in the sense of if we need to go lobby for cryptocurrency policy or something like that, but it didn’t involve necessarily trying to solve every problem out there in the world.
就我们而言，我的观点是，我们的使命是为世界创建一个开放的金融体系，这可能涉及与政府的互动，比如我们是否需要游说加密货币政策或类似的事情，但这并不一定涉及尝试解决世界上的所有问题。
That was me basically saying it feels like some of these companies are allowing themselves to be distracted.
我基本上是在说，感觉其中一些公司正在让自己分心。
If you try to solve every problem in the world, you’re actually going to end up solving none.
如果你试图解决世界上的每一个问题，实际上你最终什么也解决不了。
There’s real value in focus and solving one hard problem.
专注并解决一个难题具有真正的价值。
Do you think companies are letting themselves become more distracted by politics today as opposed to 30 years ago?
您认为与 30 年前相比，今天的公司是否让自己更加受政治干扰？
And if so, what has changed to cause that?
如果是这样，是什么变化导致了这种情况？
Well, I think you could look over history probably in different times, different places, different countries — there was various levels of this.
嗯，我想你可以回顾一下历史，可能在不同的时间、不同的地点、不同的国家 —— 有不同的层次。
I wouldn’t presume to look back 30 years, but I would say just in the last 10 years or so in Silicon Valley, it does feel like there’s more focus on activism at companies, and so, that was a change that I was noticing.
我不想回顾 30 年前，但我想说的是，就在过去 10 年左右的时间里，硅谷确实感觉公司更加关注激进主义，所以，这是我注意到的一个变化。
Where did that come from?
那是从哪里来的？
Just out of the sky?
刚刚从天上掉下来吗？
Or people felt more guilty, they became too rich?
或者人们因为变得太富有而感到更加内疚？
Or the kinds of people working at the companies evolved?
或者公司工作人员的类型发生了变化？
I’m not really sure what the origin of it was, to be honest.
老实说，我不太确定它的起源是什么。
Others might have better thoughts on that.
其他人对此可能有更好的想法。
I think one factor that might play a role there is that Silicon Valley had so much fierce competition over talent that really companies were bending over backwards to provide the most accommodation to people in any way they could.
我认为其中一个可能发挥作用的因素是，硅谷对人才的竞争非常激烈，以至于公司都在竭尽全力为人们提供尽可能多的便利。
That came in the form of compensation but also perks.
这以补偿和津贴的形式出现。
We were all really so scared of losing people because they could go get three or four offers from another company tomorrow, the top people.
我们真的很害怕失去人才，因为他们明天可能会从另一家公司得到三到四个工作机会，都是顶尖人才。
What’s happened now is, Silicon Valley has decentralized a little bit and started to be more remote-first in their hiring.
现在发生的情况是，硅谷已经稍微分散了一点，并开始在招聘方面更加偏远地区优先。
It’s broadened the talent pool, and I think that has changed a little bit of that dynamic.
它扩大了人才库，我认为这已经改变了这种动态。
If the employees are really excited about taking the company in a different direction, the management or the founders can say, “No, this company is about X, and we’re going to keep moving in that direction.” That’s one factor, but there’re probably many that are at play, I would say.
如果员工真的很高兴将公司带向不同的方向，管理层或创始人可以说：“不，这家公司是关于 X 的，我们将继续朝这个方向前进。”我想说，这是一个因素，但可能还有很多因素在起作用。
Recently, you cited an estimate that if bitcoin were priced at $200,000, that about half the world’s billionaires would be from crypto.
最近，您引用了一项估计，如果比特币定价为 20 万美元，那么世界上大约一半的亿万富翁将来自加密货币。
How is that world different?
那个世界有何不同？
What does it look like?
它看起来像什么？
How does it feel different from the world we have?
感觉与我们所处的世界有何不同？
That’s a big question.
这是一个大问题。
I guess the most honest answer is, I don’t know for sure.
我想最诚实的答案是，我不确定。
One thought I’ve had, though, is that if there are more people who generate a lot of wealth with crypto — which I think is already happening, and it will probably keep happening.
不过，我的一个想法是，如果有更多的人通过加密货币创造大量财富——我认为这种情况已经发生，而且可能会继续发生。
Most of the people who bought crypto early on — they’re believers in the power of technology to change the world.
大多数早期购买加密货币的人都相信技术能够改变世界。
They’re interested in the ethos of crypto in many cases, and I suspect that they would allocate their capital towards more things in that vein.
在很多情况下，他们对加密货币的精神感兴趣，我怀疑他们会将资金分配到更多类似的事情上。
You could almost have this — I don’t know if you’d call it a renaissance or a golden age or something, of people who are technology believers.
你几乎可以拥有这样的 —— 我不知道你是否会称其为技术信徒的文艺复兴或黄金时代或其他什么。
They want to see a better future coming from science and technology, and they’re going to use their capital for good in that direction.
他们希望看到科学和技术带来更美好的未来，并且他们将在这个方向上利用他们的资本。
That could be one outcome.
这可能是一种结果。
Now, with some of your capital, you started something called GiveCrypto.org.
现在，您用自己的一些资金创建了一个名为 GiveCrypto.org 的网站。
Why do that instead of giving the money to existing charities?
为什么要这样做而不是把钱捐给现有的慈善机构？
What’s the advantage?
有什么好处？
Well, there’re lots of good charities out there.
嗯，那里有很多好的慈善机构。
In fact, one of the ones that GiveCrypto was inspired by was called GiveDirectly.org.
事实上，GiveCrypto 的灵感来源之一是 GiveDirectly.org。
The main thing that I didn’t see anybody doing that I wanted to try with GiveCrypto was the idea of these direct cash transfers, but using cryptocurrency.
我没有看到任何人做我想尝试使用 GiveCrypto 的主要事情是这些直接现金转移的想法，但使用加密货币。
One of the things that cryptocurrency is good at is making global cross-border payments, especially in small amounts directly to the recipient.
加密货币擅长的事情之一是进行全球跨境支付，尤其是直接向收款人进行小额支付。
Sometimes, there’s fraud and there are middlemen.
有时，存在欺诈和中间商。
If you wanted to, say, send $100 to somebody in Venezuela, there’re a lot of fees and issues where people might skim that along the way before it gets into the hands of the actual recipient.
比如说，如果你想向委内瑞拉的某个人汇款 100 美元，那么在资金到达实际收款人手中之前，人们可能会忽略很多费用和问题。
Crypto allows anybody with a smartphone to participate in the global crypto economy, so it allowed us to do these kinds of experiments, like sending direct cash transfers to people in those countries.
加密货币允许任何拥有智能手机的人参与全球加密经济，因此它允许我们进行此类实验，例如向这些国家的人们直接发送现金转账。
That’s what I wanted to try with that, and it’s been going well, and we’ve been running some interesting experiments.
这就是我想尝试的，而且进展顺利，我们一直在进行一些有趣的实验。
If that can work, why isn’t crypto more widely used for remittances?
如果这可行，为什么加密货币没有更广泛地用于汇款？
Western Union and other companies, as you know, take out big fees.
如您所知，西联汇款和其他公司收取高额费用。
You don’t get a great exchange rate, but there is a last-mile problem.
你无法获得很好的汇率，但存在最后一英里的问题。
What’s the reason to think that crypto can solve the last-mile problem better than, say, money-transfer offices?
有什么理由认为加密货币可以比汇款办公室等方式更好地解决最后一英里的问题？
Well, I’m not sure it can.
好吧，我不确定可以。
Crypto is great when you’re doing crypto to crypto transactions, but to your point, if you need to do a fiat conversion on one side, get it crypto to crypto, and then a fiat conversion on the other side, you’re going to encounter some fees there.
当您进行加密货币到加密货币的交易时，加密货币非常有用，但就您而言，如果您需要在一侧进行法币转换，将其加密到加密货币，然后在另一侧进行法币转换，您将在那里遇到一些费用。
I can tell you in the case, for instance, of GiveCrypto, we were able to see that over 90 percent of the people who received the crypto were actually able to find a local exchange place or merchant who accepted it, and so they were able to make that work, but they were people who were very highly motivated.
我可以告诉你，例如，在 GiveCrypto 的案例中，我们能够看到超过 90% 的收到加密货币的人实际上能够找到接受加密货币的本地交易场所或商人，因此他们能够实现这一目标，但他们都是积极性非常高的人。
There are situations where remittance corridors are more efficient.
在某些情况下，汇款渠道效率更高。
I guess crypto hasn’t met the threshold where it’s actually easier to use in those situations yet.
我想加密货币还没有达到在这些情况下实际上更容易使用的门槛。
Is the implication, then, that most philanthropy should flow to people who are very highly motivated because that would lower the cost of transfer?
那么，这是否意味着大多数慈善事业应该流向那些积极性很高的人，因为这会降低转移成本？
Maybe.
或许。
I like the idea of it flowing to people who are highly motivated, but I’m not sure it would lower the cost of transfer in every situation because some of those markets are very inefficient as well, but yeah, maybe.
我喜欢它流向那些积极性很高的人的想法，但我不确定它会降低在每种情况下的转移成本，因为其中一些市场效率也非常低，但是，是的，也许吧。
How bullish or bearish are you about the future prospects of San Francisco and the Bay Area as a home for tech?
您对旧金山和湾区作为科技之家的未来前景有多乐观或悲观？
Short term, bearish.
短线看跌。
I would say it seems like it’s not in a great place right now, and there are a lot of talented people who are looking at other locations, but I suspect long term, it will be okay.
我想说，现在它似乎不是一个好地方，而且有很多有才华的人正在寻找其他地方，但我怀疑从长远来看，它会好起来的。
It’s probably going to have a dip and a correction of some kind and have some sort of revitalization.
它可能会出现某种程度的下滑和修正，并出现某种程度的复苏。
Yes, short term, it’s not doing so well.
是的，短期来看，它的表现并不好。
On bitcoin features and bugs
关于比特币的功能和错误
I’ve seen estimates that about 20 percent of bitcoin has been lost, or people don’t have their passwords, or it’s somehow abandoned or whatever.
据我估计，大约 20% 的比特币已经丢失，或者人们没有密码，或者比特币以某种方式被遗弃等等。
Let’s say that 20 percent were found.
假设找到了 20%。
Those people would be better off, right?
那些人会过得更好，对吗？
They’d have more wealth.
他们会有更多的财富。
Who is then worse off?
那么谁的处境更糟呢？
I’m asking, generally, what is the incidence of crypto?
我问的是，一般来说，加密货币的发生率是多少？
Is anyone else worse off?
还有其他人情况更糟吗？
Is everyone else worse off?
其他人的情况都更糟吗？
If I’d find a lot of paper money under my mattress, while I’m better off, other people are equally worse off, right?
如果我在床垫下发现很多纸币，虽然我的情况变得更好，但其他人的情况同样更糟，对吗？
Yes, I suppose you have dilution, and you have inflation if you’re increasing the money supply somehow like that.
是的，我想如果你以这样的方式增加货币供应量，就会出现稀释，就会出现通货膨胀。
Then if we ask the general question that the social value of bitcoin — bitcoin in general — again, clearly a benefit to the people who bought at low prices.
然后，如果我们再问一个普遍的问题，即比特币的社会价值 ——“一般的比特币”—— ，显然对低价购买的人来说是有利的。
They in essence found bitcoin.
他们本质上发现了比特币。
But if someone else in the system is losing an equal amount, why think that the social value of bitcoin is positive?
但如果系统中的其他人损失了同等数量，为什么认为比特币的社会价值是积极的呢？
Who’s losing the equivalent amount in this case, just so I understand?
在这种情况下，谁损失了同等金额，据我所知？
I don’t know exactly who, but someone else has less purchasing power, right?
我不知道到底是谁，但其他人的购买力比较低吧？
Bitcoin isn’t apples.
比特币不是苹果。
You can’t eat it for lunch.
你不能把它当午餐吃。
If I find some bitcoin, clearly, I’m better off, but I’m commanding resources that would have gone to other people, and it’s not clear where the efficiency gain arises that’s giving someone somewhere in the system more apples.
如果我找到一些比特币，显然，我的境况会更好，但我所控制的资源本来会流向其他人，并且不清楚效率增益在哪里产生，从而为系统中的某个地方的某人提供了更多的苹果。
It’s not clear to me that bitcoin is a zero-sum game.
我不清楚比特币是一个零和游戏。
Something new of value has been created, which is that we now have a global, decentralized value — and with other cryptocurrencies, of course, because it’s not just about bitcoin now.
一些新的价值已经被创造出来，那就是我们现在拥有一个全球性的、去中心化的价值——当然还有其他加密货币，因为现在不仅仅是比特币。
We have medium of exchange.
我们有交换媒介。
We have security tokens, smart contracts.
我们有安全代币、智能合约。
This is actually driving a lot of innovation and new value, I would say.
我想说，这实际上推动了很多创新和新价值。
It’s not clear to me it’s zero-sum.
我不清楚这是零和游戏。
I think there’s something inherently of value that probably made people, net, better off overall there.
我认为，有一些内在的价值可能会让人们（网络）整体上过得更好。
But what is that?
但那是什么？
When do I get my apples, so to speak?
可以这么说，我什么时候能拿到苹果？
Where do they come from?
他们从哪里来？
Well, anybody can participate of course.
嗯，当然任何人都可以参加。
I’m not sure I’m answering your question super directly, but yes, of course, anybody can participate in this global, decentralized network, and it’s there to benefit anybody who wants to use it.
我不确定我是否非常直接地回答你的问题，但是，当然，任何人都可以参与这个全球性的、去中心化的网络，并且它的存在可以使任何想要使用它的人受益。
I think, now, about probably 10 percent of Americans and maybe 60 or 70 million people globally have crypto, at least.
我认为，现在，大约有 10% 的美国人，以及全球可能有 60 或 7000 万人拥有加密货币。
So it’s been growing a lot.
所以它已经增长了很多。
Here’s a question from a reader, and I quote, “Cryptocurrency fluctuates too much and too often to ever be a common medium of exchange.
这是一位读者提出的问题，我引用一下：“加密货币波动太大、太频繁，不可能成为一种常见的交换媒介。
Why do you disagree?” That’s for you.
你为什么不同意？”那是给你的。
Well, you have to realize that there’re lots of different types of cryptocurrencies.
嗯，你必须意识到有很多不同类型的加密货币。
Let’s take bitcoin for instance.
我们以比特币为例。
Some people use it as a medium of exchange, but as you pointed out, it’s volatile.
有些人将其用作交换媒介，但正如您所指出的，它是不稳定的。
It’s more often used as a store of value or an investment, and in an investment, volatility can be a feature, not a bug.
它更常被用作价值储存或投资，在投资中，波动性可以是一个特征，而不是一个错误。
Actually, when you buy it, you want the value of it to change.
事实上，当你购买它时，你希望它的价值发生变化。
If it just stayed exactly the same forever, that would be a bad investment.
如果它永远保持不变，那将是一项糟糕的投资。
Now, there are other cryptocurrencies that people are starting to use more as mediums of exchange.
现在，人们开始更多地使用其他加密货币作为交换媒介。
You could look at stablecoins, you could look at Ethereum, you could look at layer 2 solutions on top of bitcoin — all these things.
你可以看看稳定币，你可以看看以太坊，你可以看看比特币之上的第二层解决方案——所有这些东西。
I think there are many different types of cryptocurrency that’ll fill different roles in the crypto economy.
我认为有许多不同类型的加密货币将在加密经济中扮演不同的角色。
That’s why, by the way, I like using that word, the crypto economy, because it really is almost like a new alternative economy that’s being built, where people are not just trading bitcoin.
顺便说一句，这就是为什么我喜欢使用“加密经济”这个词，因为它实际上几乎就像一个正在建立的新的替代经济，人们不仅仅是交易比特币。
They’re earning a living.
他们正在谋生。
They’re launching new start-ups — crypto start-ups.
他们正在创办新的初创企业 —— 加密初创企业。
They’re borrowing and lending.
他们在借贷。
They’re doing all different types of economic activity, buying products and goods and services.
他们从事各种不同类型的经济活动，购买产品、商品和服务。
That part is still newer.
那部分还比较新。
Most people come into crypto, and they just trade a little bit as their first experience, but that part — it’s there, and it’s working, and it’s growing with things like DeFi and all the things we’ve seen in the last few years.
大多数人进入加密货币领域时，他们只是进行了一点交易作为他们的第一次体验，但这一部分——它就在那里，它正在发挥作用，并且它随着 DeFi 等事物以及我们过去几年看到的所有事物而不断增长。
When they stop making more bitcoin, what will happen to the net fees for mining?
当他们停止制造更多比特币时，挖矿的净费用会发生什么变化？
What does that equilibrium look like?
这种平衡是什么样的？
Or do you think it will fork, and one branch of the fork — they just keep on making more bitcoin new or whatever they call it?
或者你认为它会分叉，而分叉的一个分支 ——他们只是继续制造更多新的比特币或者不管他们怎么称呼它？
Well, I don’t think it will fork, at least nothing with substantial adoption.
好吧，我认为它不会分叉，至少不会被大量采用。
There will only be 21 million bitcoins, and that’s how that’s going to stay.
比特币的数量将只有 2100 万个，而且会一直如此。
I feel pretty confident about that.
我对此很有信心。
It depends what layer you’re talking about.
这取决于你在谈论哪一层。
If you’re talking about the base blockchain layer of bitcoin, we’re probably not going to grow the capacity of that to do tons more transactions.
如果你谈论的是比特币的基础区块链层，我们可能不会增加其容量来进行更多的交易。
It will only be used — the base layer of the blockchain — to move pretty large amounts infrequently that the transaction fees, as more and more people use bitcoin globally, could go up there.
它只会被用来————区块链的基础层————很少进行大量交易，随着全球越来越多的人使用比特币，交易费用可能会上涨。
There are things called, like, layer 2 solutions, which would offer faster payments, or there are other blockchains that are trying to target more that medium-of-exchange layer where fees could be very low forever and really focused on scalability.
有些东西被称为第二层解决方案，它可以提供更快的支付速度，或者还有其他区块链试图瞄准更多的交易媒介层，其中费用可能永远非常低，并且真正专注于可扩展性。
It’s like the internet had to move from dial-up to broadband and enable all these new applications.
这就像互联网必须从拨号转向宽带并启用所有这些新应用程序。
There are a lot of people working on the broadband or the more scalable versions of blockchains that could enable that medium-of-exchange use case.
有很多人致力于宽带或更具可扩展性的区块链版本，这些版本可以实现交换媒介用例。
If we know the net mining fees are going up, shouldn’t our prediction for the long-term equilibrium be one of very low velocity, and in some ways, the uses of bitcoin will be more restricted than now, and it will be quite inert.
如果我们知道净挖矿费用正在上涨，那么我们对长期均衡的预测不应该是非常低的速度之一，并且在某些方面，比特币的使用将比现在更加受到限制，并且它将相当惰性。
It will be there as a thing in portfolios, but actually, in a funny way, a little boring.
它会作为投资组合中的一个东西存在，但实际上，以一种有趣的方式，有点无聊。
Look, I think of bitcoin as being like digital gold, so it may turn out that it’s not going to be the medium of exchange unless those layer 2 solutions start to really work.
看，我认为比特币就像数字黄金一样，因此，除非那些第 2 层解决方案开始真正发挥作用，否则它可能不会成为交换媒介。
If we don’t get layer 2, then I think bitcoin will probably stay like a digital gold, and you’re right, it will be large, slow-moving amounts.
如果我们没有获得第 2 层，那么我认为比特币可能会像数字黄金一样继续存在，你是对的，它将是大量、流动缓慢的金额。
It’s like the asset that people flee to in times of uncertainty, almost like the reserve currency of the crypto economy.
它就像人们在不确定时期逃离的资产，几乎就像加密经济的储备货币。
I don’t know if it’s boring or not, but you may see lower movement of money and that kind of thing.
我不知道这是否无聊，但你可能会看到资金流动减少之类的事情。
Why isn’t it a Pareto improvement, then, to have a fork, to give up on the old agreement, have something called bitcoin new, where they do create more than 20 million, and that will keep the mining fees lower for bitcoin new, and that will out-compete classic bitcoin.
那么，为什么不是帕累托改进呢，有一个分叉，放弃旧协议，有一种叫做新比特币的东西，他们确实创造了超过 2000 万个，这将使新比特币的挖矿费用保持在较低水平，这将超越经典比特币。
When you say mining fees, do you mean the transaction fees — keeping those lower?
当你说挖矿费时，你指的是交易费 —— 保持较低吗？
Well, at some point, you won’t be able to pay people with new bitcoin to maintain the blockchain, right?
好吧，在某些时候，你将无法向人们支付新的比特币来维护区块链，对吧？
Because Q, the quantity, hits the ceiling.
因为数量Q已经达到上限。
What year does that happen?
那是哪一年发生的事？
I forget.
我忘记了。
It’s an asymptotic curve, but it’s probably 80, 90, 100 years away, or something like that — the very last one.
这是一条渐近曲线，但可能还需要 80 年、90 年、100 年，或者类似的时间——最后一个。
I forget.
我忘记了。
I think your point is when the new bitcoins being issued per block starts to decline, transaction fees are how the miners were going to get paid.
我认为你的观点是，当每个区块发行的新比特币开始下降时，交易费用就是矿工获得报酬的方式。
You’re asking why don’t we make a new blockchain —
你问我们为什么不创建一个新的区块链 ——
Why not scrap — Yes, make a new blockchain, scrap the quantity limit on bitcoin, and allow the miners to keep on being paid with the creation of this new asset.
为什么不废除 —— 是的，创建一个新的区块链，废除比特币的数量限制，并允许矿工继续通过创建这种新资产获得报酬。
Call it bitcoin new.
称其为比特币新事物。
Right.
正确的。
Well, there are other crypto-assets that have different inflation curves if you will, and they have made .
好吧，如果你愿意的话，还有其他加密资产具有不同的通胀曲线，而且它们已经做到了。
.
。
.
。
some of them have clarified that.
其中一些人已经澄清了这一点。
Some of them have left the door open to it, I should say.
我应该说，他们中的一些人对此敞开了大门。
But bitcoin and the community behind it feels very strongly that there should be a capped supply.
但比特币及其背后的社区强烈认为应该有一个供应上限。
I think it really is emulating gold in that regard, that unless we start mining asteroids or something, they’re not going to find more supply.
我认为在这方面它确实在模仿黄金，除非我们开始开采小行星或其他东西，否则他们不会找到更多的供应。
The people behind it feel that it’s important to have, I guess, a deflationary asset, and it’s one of the components in this new crypto economy.
我认为，其背后的人认为拥有通货紧缩资产很重要，而且它是这种新加密经济的组成部分之一。
Is it the one that people are going to use?
它是人们要使用的吗？
I guess the market will tell us.
我想市场会告诉我们。
What’s the best model we have for how to think about the value of bitcoin?
我们思考比特币价值的最佳模型是什么？
The value of it.
它的价值。
People tie themselves into knots trying to think about, like, what is the intrinsic value of it?
人们陷入困境，试图思考，比如，它的内在价值是什么？
What are you actually able to do?
你实际上能做什么？
You can think of it hypothetically as .
您可以将其假设为。
.
。
.
。
It’s almost like when you’re spending miner fees or transaction fees, it’s like giving you right access to this global, decentralized ledger or something that .
这几乎就像当您花费矿工费或交易费时，就好像让您有权访问这个全球性的、去中心化的分类账或其他东西。
.
。
.
。
People come up with all these ideas.
人们想出了所有这些想法。
But I think the simple answer there is, there’s probably not really a true intrinsic value to bitcoin.
但我认为简单的答案是，比特币可能并没有真正的内在价值。
It’s valuable because people think it’s valuable, and it has some use cases.
它很有价值，因为人们认为它有价值，并且它有一些用例。
It’s useful for some things.
它对某些事情很有用。
After the Ethereum 2.0 rollout, what will I be able to do that I can’t do right now?
以太坊 2.0 推出后，我能做哪些现在不能做的事情？
What will that do for me?
这对我有什么作用？
Ethereum 2.0 does offer a few things.
以太坊 2.0 确实提供了一些东西。
Scalability is probably one of the most important and underrated things.
可扩展性可能是最重要且被低估的事情之一。
Today, as I mentioned, the transaction fees are a little bit high, and it’s like that dial-up going to broadband for the internet.
今天，正如我提到的，交易费用有点高，就像拨号上网宽带一样。
Whenever you lower the friction of something, it adds all these new use cases.
每当你降低某些东西的摩擦力时，它就会增加所有这些新的用例。
Just to give you a specific example, today, people in DeFi — they’re doing borrowing and lending marketplaces, but borrowing and lending is something you do relatively infrequently, so you might actually have to write something to the blockchain if you were to do a borrow or pay back.
举个具体的例子，今天，DeFi 中的人们——他们正在做借贷市场，但借贷是你相对不经常做的事情，所以如果你要借钱或还钱，你实际上可能需要在区块链上写一些东西。
If you can imagine recreating Twitter or something like that on the Ethereum blockchain, you’d have to write to the blockchain every time you tweet or every time you heart something or make some kind of action like that.
如果你可以想象在以太坊区块链上重新创建 Twitter 或类似的东西，那么每次你发推文或每次你关注某事或做出类似的行动时，你都必须写入区块链。
You can imagine the number of actions per second would be hundreds of millions, probably, at a certain scale.
您可以想象，在一定规模下，每秒的操作数可能会达到数亿。
To get to, eventually, some kind of a scalability like that, we’re going to have to have applications like Ethereum 2 go out there.
为了最终实现某种类似的可扩展性，我们必须推出像以太坊 2 这样的应用程序。
That’s one example, is the scalability.
这就是一个例子，就是可扩展性。
There are other things that could be improved along the way there in terms of privacy and usability.
在隐私和可用性方面还有其他一些可以改进的地方。
An example is, today, when you’re sending to Ethereum an Ethereum, you’re sending to another Ethereum address, and it looks like this random string of characters.
一个例子是，今天，当你向以太坊发送一个以太坊时，你正在发送到另一个以太坊地址，它看起来像这个随机字符串。
You could say it’s a machine-readable address, but there can be this thing — we call it decentralized identity — that would allow you to send it to a human-readable name.
你可以说它是一个机器可读的地址，但也可以有这个东西 ——我们称之为去中心化身份 —— 它可以让你将它发送到一个人类可读的名字。
Instead of going to an IP address, you go to Google.com.
您无需访问 IP 地址，而是访问 Google.com。
Well, in this case, instead of sending to a random Ethereum address, you could send it to or something like that.
好吧，在这种情况下，您可以将其发送到或类似的地址，而不是发送到随机的以太坊地址。
Is there a reason to think there’s currently a large suppressed demand for microtransactions?
是否有理由认为目前对微交易的需求被大量抑制？
If the main transactions costs to those are psychological, and now I can do it easily — I don’t have to pull out my visa card; I just connect through platforms built on top of Ethereum — what am I going to use that for?
如果主要的交易成本是心理上的，现在我可以轻松完成 —— 我不用拿出我的visa卡；我只是通过建立在以太坊之上的平台进行连接 — 我要用它来做什么？
I can tweet now for free.
我现在可以免费发推文了。
Where do I get my apples again, so to speak?
可以这么说，我到哪里才能再次得到我的苹果呢？
I’m not sure if I understand the question.
我不确定我是否理解这个问题。
Can you just repeat it?
你能重复一遍吗？
The new transactions that will be enabled by Ethereum 2.0 — what exactly will I do with those?
以太坊 2.0 将启用的新交易 — 我究竟将如何处理这些交易？
I understand if I have this suppressed burning desire to make micropayments — like to read people’s articles and pay them a fraction of a cent — that this new platform might help me do that.
我明白，如果我有这种抑制小额支付的强烈愿望——比如阅读人们的文章并支付他们一小部分钱——那么这个新平台可能会帮助我做到这一点。
But I’m not sure I have such a demand.
但我不确定我有这样的需求。
What else can the platform do for me?
该平台还能为我做什么？
Or do you think the demand to make micropayments is really very strong?
或者您认为小额支付的需求真的非常强劲吗？
I don’t think there’s anybody who’s sitting around saying, “God, I wish I could make more microtransactions,” I agree with that, but I think whenever you give developers and entrepreneurs new tools, they tend to create new apps, and they try to take advantage of that medium and do something new.
我不认为有人会坐在那里说：“天啊，我希望我能进行更多的微交易。”我同意这一点，但我认为每当你为开发人员和企业家提供新工具时，他们往往会创建新的应用程序，并且他们会尝试利用该媒介并做一些新的事情。
It’s just like the early days of the internet.
就像互联网的早期一样。
A lot of people looked at it, and they said, “There’s some kind of blinking text” or “There’s a video of a cat” or something.
很多人看着它，他们说，“有某种闪烁的文字”或“有一只猫的视频”之类的。
“This is a toy.
“这是一个玩具。
Why would we ever use this?
我们为什么要使用这个？
Why would people ever spend their time on it?
人们为什么要花时间在上面？
And that’s not real.”
那不是真的。”
Of course, over time, people made new things that took advantage of that medium that people really resonated with.
当然，随着时间的推移，人们利用人们真正产生共鸣的媒介创造了新的东西。
Or you can say the same thing about smartphones or the same thing about movies versus the theater.
或者你可以对智能手机说同样的事情，或者对电影与剧院说同样的事情。
When movies first came out, they were just filming what might happen in the theater, but they had to take advantage of that medium and do something new.
当电影刚问世时，他们只是拍摄剧院中可能发生的事情，但他们必须利用这种媒介并做一些新的事情。
I think the same thing is happening here with crypto, and that scalability is just one of those new tools that it’s really hard to say what could come out of it, but I do believe people will be creative and come up with new stuff.
我认为加密货币也发生了同样的事情，可扩展性只是这些新工具之一，很难说它会带来什么，但我确实相信人们会富有创造力并想出新东西。
On central bank digital currencies
关于央行数字货币
As you know, central banks have started talking about doing electronic reserve currencies.
如您所知，各国央行已经开始谈论电子储备货币。
China might be the first to do this.
中国可能是第一个这样做的。
Sweden and Singapore have at least raised the idea.
瑞典和新加坡至少提出了这个想法。
Do you view that as a competitor to crypto or something crypto can somehow build upon or work with, a complement of crypto?
您是否认为加密货币是加密货币的竞争对手，或者加密货币可以以某种方式构建或与加密货币的补充一起使用？
I think of central bank digital currencies as primarily complementary to crypto.
我认为央行数字货币主要是对加密货币的补充。
On the one hand, it’s a great endorsement of this technology that central banks are starting to look at it, and they are showing that there’re things that they want to go build with it.
一方面，各国央行开始关注这项技术，这是对这项技术的极大认可，并且他们正在表明他们想用它来构建一些东西。
On the other hand, to me, the thing that’s more exciting is really these decentralized cryptocurrencies because if we want to use centralized or fiat currencies, we can do that today.
另一方面，对我来说，更令人兴奋的是这些去中心化的加密货币，因为如果我们想使用中心化或法定货币，我们今天就可以做到。
And sure, blockchain might be able to improve some of the efficiencies around that, like interbank settlement, or maybe foreign exchange, or something like that.
当然，区块链也许能够提高一些效率，比如银行间结算，或者外汇，或者类似的东西。
By the way, China is, I think, very far ahead on this with the digitized yuan, but the more exciting thing for the world is to have this global decentralized currency.
顺便说一句，我认为中国在数字化人民币方面遥遥领先，但对世界来说更令人兴奋的是拥有这种全球去中心化货币。
It’s like if a country came up with their own private internet.
这就像一个国家想出了自己的私人互联网一样。
I’m more interested in the global decentralized internet.
我对全球去中心化互联网更感兴趣。
I think that unlocked more innovation.
我认为这释放了更多创新。
But if I could access an electronic reserve currency?
但是我是否可以使用电子储备货币呢？
Again, black and gray market aside — that I understand.
再说一遍，除了黑市和灰市之外 ——我理解。
Why, for instance, would I want to use a stablecoin when I have some other system of direct digital transfer that I can just do?
例如，当我可以使用其他一些直接数字传输系统时，为什么我要使用稳定币？
Stablecoins are an interesting discussion.
稳定币是一个有趣的讨论。
There are some use cases where they really make sense today.
有些用例在今天确实有意义。
For instance, people are trying to make .
例如，人们正在尝试制作。
.
。
.
。
They’re making decentralized exchanges and various things where you want to have these currency trading pairs, and you want to make something that’s dollar- or euro- or yen-denominated.
他们正在制作去中心化交易所和各种你想要拥有这些货币交易对的东西，并且你想要制作以美元、欧元或日元计价的东西。
It makes sense to have a crypto asset that is one-to-one linked with a fiat token underneath.
拥有与底层法定代币一对一链接的加密资产是有意义的。
I’ll say, in addition to that, there’re a lot of people who live in countries where they don’t have stable currency.
我想说的是，除此之外，还有很多人生活在没有稳定货币的国家。
Maybe they want to have a dollar, and they can’t open a dollar-denominated bank account, for instance.
例如，也许他们想要一美元，但他们无法开设以美元计价的银行账户。
But they do have a smartphone, so they can have a USD-Coin-denominated account on their smartphone.
但他们确实有智能手机，因此他们可以在智能手机上拥有美元硬币计价的账户。
There are use cases like that, but I agree with you.
有这样的用例，但我同意你的观点。
I think, longer term, the more interesting thing are those decentralized crypto assets for people to really start to participate in a more global, more free, more fair economy.
我认为，从长远来看，更有趣的是那些去中心化的加密资产，让人们真正开始参与一个更加全球化、更加自由、更加公平的经济。
That might sound like a very niche thing today, but I think over time it will become bigger and more important.
这在今天听起来可能是一件非常小众的事情，但我认为随着时间的推移，它会变得更大、更重要。
What will happen with the Facebook asset formerly known as Libra, now called Diem?
Facebook 的资产（以前称为 Libra，现在称为 Diem）会发生什么？
Which I think is a bad name, but I still think of it as Libra.
我认为这是一个不好的名字，但我仍然认为它是天秤座。
Okay, why don’t you like Diem?
好吧，你为什么不喜欢迪姆呢？
It confuses D-I-E-M and D-E-E-M, and it looks like a Vietnamese word.
它混淆了D-I-E-M和D-E-E-M，看起来像越南语单词。
Libra, I thought, was fine, and it doesn’t evoke anything.
我认为天秤座很好，而且不会引起任何事情。
The name of your company, Coinbase — it’s a great name.
你们公司的名字，Coinbase ——这是一个很棒的名字。
A base, a solid, coin, money, evokes notions of banking and payments and transfer and funds management.
底座、固体、硬币、货币会让人想起银行、支付、转账和资金管理的概念。
But Diem — what do you think of?
但是吴庭艳——你觉得怎么样？
You think of some obscure general in the Vietnamese war in the late 1950s.
你会想到 20 世纪 50 年代末越南战争中的一位默默无闻的将军。
I think of it like per diem or something, like your daily payment you’d get.
我认为它就像每日津贴或其他什么，就像你每天收到的付款一样。
By the way, naming things turns out to be incredibly hard just because of global trademark issues and all these things.
顺便说一句，由于全球商标问题和所有这些事情，命名事物变得非常困难。
It’s so hard to find unused names that are good.
很难找到未使用的好名字。
But what do I think will become of it?
但我认为它会变成什么样子呢？
Look, I give them a lot of credit for being forward thinking on this.
看，我非常赞扬他们在这方面的前瞻性思考。
Of the big FAANG tech companies, Facebook was really one of the first to go embrace this technology in a big way and see some of the potential of it, and they’ve taken their own approach to it which now, of course, is not run by Facebook.
在大型 FAANG 科技公司中，Facebook 确实是最先大规模采用这项技术并看到其潜力的公司之一，他们采取了自己的方法，当然，现在不再由 Facebook 运营。
It’s this bigger organization.
这是一个更大的组织。
Of course, they managed to upset everybody in DC pretty much by doing it, which I didn’t think was totally fair.
当然，他们的做法让华盛顿的每个人都感到非常不安，我认为这并不完全公平。
As I mentioned earlier, China, I think, is pretty far ahead in digitizing the yuan.
正如我之前提到的，我认为中国在人民币数字化方面遥遥领先。
They’ve been working on this for maybe six or more years.
他们已经为此工作了六年或更长时间。
They have this thing working, and there are people actually using it.
他们让这个东西发挥作用，并且有人实际使用它。
In the US, we don’t have necessarily state-controlled things.
在美国，我们不一定有国家控制的东西。
We try to rely on the private industry to innovate.
我们尝试依靠私营企业进行创新。
In my mind, that was Facebook trying at least.
在我看来，Facebook 至少在尝试这样做。
Whether they were going to succeed or not, who knows, but they were trying to innovate there and do something that would help America globally.
无论他们是否会成功，谁知道呢，但他们正在努力在那里进行创新，并做一些能够在全球范围内帮助美国的事情。
The US government had a pretty negative reaction to it, I think, because it was Facebook.
我认为，美国政府对此反应相当消极，因为它是 Facebook。
But then, once they realized they were maybe potentially a little behind China, the US Treasury started to think about, “All right, what is our solution going to be?”
但随后，一旦他们意识到自己可能稍微落后于中国，美国财政部就开始思考：“好吧，我们的解决方案是什么？”
And they’re now looking out for that, I think.
我认为他们现在正在寻找这一点。
I hope that they continue to make progress on that, whether they use USD Coin or Diem, or they create something entirely new themselves because it would be unfortunate to see the yuan — from a global perspective, maybe, who knows if it would be bad — but from a US point of view, it would be bad to see the US lose its reserve currency status or something like that over a miss in technology adoption.
我希望他们继续在这方面取得进展，无论他们使用美元硬币还是Diem，或者他们自己创造一些全新的东西，因为看到人民币是不幸的——从全球角度来看，也许，谁知道这是否会很糟糕——但从美国的角度来看，看到美国因技术采用失误而失去其储备货币地位或类似的情况将是很糟糕的。
Who is Satoshi?
中本聪是谁？
Give us your best guess.
给我们您最好的猜测。
Yeah, my best guess.
是的，我最好的猜测。
Obviously, I don’t know who it is, and it’s definitely not me.
显然，我不知道是谁，也绝对不是我。
My guess is that there was a handful of people who came together to work on that.
我的猜测是，有少数人聚集在一起致力于此。
There’re some good candidates out there — Hal Finney and people like that.
那里有一些不错的候选人 ——哈尔·芬尼（Hal Finney）和类似的人。
My guess is, it was a collection of people, some of the early cypherpunks, and one or more of them wrote it, and they decided they wanted it to stay totally disconnected from them.
我的猜测是，它是一群人的集合，一些早期的密码朋克，他们中的一个或多个人写了它，他们决定希望它与他们完全脱节。
Now, in all of these conversations, we have a segment in the middle: overrated versus underrated.
现在，在所有这些对话中，我们有一个中间部分：高估与低估。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
These are the easy questions.
这些都是简单的问题。
Yes, I’m ready.
是的，我准备好了。
On things under- and overrated
关于被低估和高估的事情
First one: city of Houston — underrated or overrated?
第一个：休斯顿市 — 被低估还是高估？
Underrated, I think.
我认为被低估了。
You’re asking because I went to school there at Rice .
你问这个问题是因为我在莱斯大学上学。
Houston’s a pretty great place.
休斯顿是一个非常棒的地方。
The weather is not great, but it has an amazing economy.
天气不太好，但经济却惊人。
It has great people, great culture, great food, and a lot of really important industries, and NASA, and healthcare, and oil, and stuff like that.
它有伟大的人民、伟大的文化、美味的食物和许多非常重要的行业，还有美国宇航局、医疗保健、石油等等。
Yeah, it’s a really cool place.
是的，那是一个非常酷的地方。
Monty Python — overrated or underrated?
Monty Python — 被高估还是低估？
I think Monty Python is pretty funny, but I think that’s a widely held view.
我认为巨蟒剧团很有趣，但我认为这是一个广泛持有的观点。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
It’s probably a little underrated or something.
它可能有点被低估了。
The movie director Ridley Scott.
电影导演雷德利·斯科特。
Alien was such a breakthrough film that it’s hard to ever .
《异形》是一部如此具有突破性的电影，很难做到。
.
。
.
。
and I think Blade Runner, right?
我想《银翼杀手》，对吧？
Correct.
正确的。
Yeah, those were just incredible films that changed so many people’s lives.
是的，这些都是令人难以置信的电影，改变了很多人的生活。
I think those will forever be underrated.
我认为这些将永远被低估。
But some of the more recent films, I’ve really struggled.
但最近的一些电影，我真的很挣扎。
I’m not sure what’s different.
我不确定有什么不同。
In fact, if I ever meet Ridley Scott for some reason, I want to ask him what was the process behind, say, Prometheus versus some of those earlier films because it feels like something materially is different now.
事实上，如果我出于某种原因见到雷德利·斯科特，我想问他《普罗米修斯》和一些早期电影背后的过程是什么，因为现在感觉有些东西已经发生了实质性的不同。
Chinchulines, the food from Argentina.
Chinchulins，来自阿根廷的食物。
Chinchulines — I don’t think I know what that is.
Chinchulins — 我想我不知道那是什么。
Oh, they’re disgusting.
哦，他们真恶心。
They’re from the intestines of the cow.
它们来自牛的肠子。
They serve them in Buenos Aires.
他们在布宜诺斯艾利斯为他们服务。
It’s like tripe and that kind of thing?
就像牛肚之类的东西？
Okay.
好的。
It means something very specific, but I couldn’t tell you what.
这意味着一些非常具体的事情，但我无法告诉你是什么。
I probably never tried it, so I couldn’t say.
我可能从未尝试过，所以我不能说。
That must mean it’s underrated then, right?
这一定意味着它被低估了，对吧？
Maybe, we’ll see.
也许，我们会看到。
What is the biggest obstacle to charter cities in today’s world?
当今世界特许城市的最大障碍是什么？
Well, I’m interested in charter cities.
嗯，我对特许城市感兴趣。
I think one of the biggest obstacles, of course, is that all the land is claimed by a sovereign, so it’s hard to get one that’s truly independent of the legal system around it, although I know there are people trying that.
当然，我认为最大的障碍之一是所有土地都由主权者拥有，因此很难获得真正独立于周围法律体系的土地，尽管我知道有人在尝试这样做。
There’s one called Próspera in Honduras that seems to have gotten an exception from the government for this area of land to run its own legal system and court system.
洪都拉斯有一个名为普罗斯佩拉（Próspera）的地方，似乎获得了政府的例外，让这片土地拥有自己的法律体系和法院系统。
There are some people doing really interesting work here in terms of trying to bring people together in the cloud, so to speak, initially, because that’s unclaimed land, so to speak.
有些人在这里做着非常有趣的工作，试图将人们聚集在云中，可以这么说，最初，因为可以说，这是无人认领的土地。
You’ve basically got to go seasteading or go to Mars.
你基本上必须去海上定居或去火星。
It’s probably easier to get people together in VR or on a Zoom call, at least, than in getting in the cloud in this community.
至少，在这个社区中，通过 VR 或 Zoom 通话将人们聚集在一起可能比进入云更容易。
Then once you have some critical mass happening, you might be able to go do collective bargaining and negotiate with a sovereign to get a little piece of land, but that feels like the hard part to me.
然后，一旦发生了一些临界事件，你也许可以进行集体谈判，并与主权国家谈判以获得一小块土地，但这对我来说是困难的部分。
What was the best part about living in Buenos Aires?
在布宜诺斯艾利斯生活最好的部分是什么？
The best part was that I got to see a country that had gone through hyperinflation, which might sound weird to say as the best part, but what it ended up doing was, it helped me really understand the potential for cryptocurrency later when I read the Satoshi white paper.
最棒的是，我看到了一个经历了恶性通货膨胀的国家，这可能听起来很奇怪，但最终的结果是，当我后来读到中本聪白皮书时，它帮助我真正了解了加密货币的潜力。
Having a country that went through hyperinflation like that — it affected, really, every part of the culture just in terms of people’s optimism about the future sometimes.
有一个经历过这样的恶性通货膨胀的国家——实际上，仅仅从人们对未来的乐观态度来看，它确实影响了文化的方方面面。
I think it really harmed that.
我认为这确实伤害了这一点。
It’s almost like, “Live today to the fullest because tomorrow it might all be gone.” It was almost like this feeling that had lived underneath that.
这几乎就像是，“今天要过得充实，因为明天一切可能都会消失。”这几乎就像是存在于其之下的这种感觉。
Only the richest people who were able to buy assets that adjusted for inflation, like real estate — they were able to survive through these periods or to get their assets outside of Argentina.
只有那些能够购买根据通货膨胀调整的资产（例如房地产）的最富有的人，他们才能度过这些时期或将资产转移到阿根廷境外。
Inflation was so insidious because it eroded the wealth of the poorest people who held their wealth in cash.
通货膨胀之所以如此阴险，是因为它侵蚀了持有现金财富的最贫困人口的财富。
Anyway, just seeing that was obviously tragic, but it led me to understand and appreciate the potential for cryptocurrency more broadly.
不管怎样，看到这显然是一场悲剧，但它让我更广泛地理解和欣赏加密货币的潜力。
Let’s say we had the potential to settle Mars.
假设我们有潜力定居火星。
We had the technology, and 5,000 people would go.
我们有技术，可以容纳 5,000 人。
What principles would we use for choosing which people?
我们会根据什么原则来选择哪些人？
And what kinds of rules or governing structure should they live under?
他们应该遵守什么样的规则或治理结构？
Let’s say it’s more or less self-sustaining when they get there.
假设当他们到达那里时，它或多或少可以自我维持。
Solar power works, there’s some other source of energy, they’re not completely dependent on us, and they’re going to make their own way, 5,000 people.
太阳能有效，还有其他能源，他们并不完全依赖我们，他们会自己谋生，5000人。
Do they all come from one country?
他们都来自同一个国家吗？
Is it all young people?
都是年轻人吗？
A lot of old people?
老人多吗？
How do you do it?
你怎么做？
My first reaction is, why don’t we let the market decide who wants to buy a ticket, who wants to go there.
我的第一反应是，为什么我们不让市场来决定谁想买票、谁想去那里。
The market is good, as you’ve written about in other contexts — vaccines and all kinds of things.
正如您在其他情况下所写的那样，市场很好——疫苗和各种东西。
The market is good at sending the information, transmitting it through prices.
市场擅长发送信息，通过价格传递信息。
I like the idea of letting the market decide.
我喜欢让市场决定的想法。
In terms of what governance system they would live under, I think there are some really interesting ideas about how to make the next version of democracy because democracy was such a breakthrough, but it has some issues that are cropping up here and there that people are thinking about how to improve on it.
就他们将生活在什么样的治理体系而言，我认为关于如何打造下一个版本的民主有一些非常有趣的想法，因为民主是一个突破，但它也有一些问题时时出现，人们正在考虑如何改进它。
For instance, we have this accumulation of laws in the US, and people make these analogies to tech debt and software.
例如，我们在美国有大量的法律，人们将这些与技术债务和软件进行类比。
I think the IRS or the tax legal code is 150,000 pages or something at this point.
我认为 IRS 或税收法律法规目前有 150,000 页之类的。
It only grows.
它只会增长。
One interesting idea for democracies is that you put a sunset clause in every law, where after 4 or 8 or 10 years or something, unless people actively go to reinitiate it, it sunsets and goes away.
对于民主国家来说，一个有趣的想法是，你在每项法律中都加入日落条款，在 4 年、8 年或 10 年或更长的时间后，除非人们积极地重新启动它，否则它就会日落并消失。
It might be interesting to have other ways to keep the amount of bureaucracy and overhead low.
采用其他方法来减少官僚主义和管理费用可能会很有趣。
It takes two-thirds to add a new law, but it takes only 50 percent or less to remove a law.
增加一项新法律需要三分之二的人，但删除一项法律只需要 50% 或更少。
I also think that a lot of laws — they have these issues where people want to add in all these additional special interest things to get the votes, to get it approved.
我还认为，很多法律都存在这些问题，人们希望添加所有这些额外的特殊利益，以获得选票，获得批准。
You get these laws that are thousands of pages.
你会得到这些长达数千页的法律。
They have all these special interests inserted.
他们有所有这些特殊兴趣。
But if you had some rule that was, every law should only be two pages maximum, otherwise it can’t be a law, you break it down into these smaller chunks that would be, actually, the law itself, and not these massive things that people didn’t read before they voted on.
但如果你有一些规则，每项法律最多只能有两页，否则它就不能成为法律，你把它分解成这些更小的块，实际上，这些块就是法律本身，而不是人们在投票前没有阅读的这些大块内容。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I’m not an expert on this, but there are lots of ideas about how we could probably iterate on democracy, and Mars might be an opportunity to do that.
我不是这方面的专家，但是关于我们如何迭代民主有很多想法，而火星可能是一个实现这一点的机会。
If you could do one thing to accelerate progress in science, what would it be?
如果你可以做一件事来加速科学进步，你会做什么？
I’ve thought about this a lot because I think it should become more like open-source software, basically.
我对此思考了很多，因为我认为它基本上应该变得更像开源软件。
There’re a lot of pieces that go into that.
有很多部分涉及其中。
There’s a project I’ve been working on called ResearchHub, which is trying to help with this problem.
我一直在致力于一个名为 ResearchHub 的项目，它试图帮助解决这个问题。
There are all kinds of issues in science around reproducibility and funding, and why aren’t there more scientific research that translates into products that can be commercialized?
科学界存在着各种围绕可重复性和资金问题的问题，为什么没有更多的科学研究转化为可以商业化的产品呢？
There’s this huge divide between academia and scientists and entrepreneurs.
学术界、科学家和企业家之间存在巨大分歧。
Most entrepreneurs are starting companies that don’t have any scientific innovation behind it at all.
大多数企业家所创办的公司根本没有任何科学创新的支持。
It’s purely marketing, where they’re making some new beverage or clothing line or something like that.
这纯粹是营销，他们正在制作一些新的饮料或服装系列或类似的东西。
Then most scientists are completely disconnected from business, too.
那么大多数科学家也完全脱离了商业。
Sometimes they’ll try to leave academia to start a business, but it’s not what they’re schooled in.
有时他们会尝试离开学术界去创业，但这不是他们所接受的教育。
I want to try to help bring that divide together and create some kind of a prioritization mechanism that’s like, if you’re the scientist who discovers CRISPR or something like that, and a bunch of entrepreneurs can license that and go commercialize it in various ways, that scientist should be a billionaire from that.
我想尝试帮助弥合这种分歧，并创建某种优先级机制，就像，如果你是发现 CRISPR 或类似技术的科学家，并且一群企业家可以获得许可并以各种方式将其商业化，那么该科学家应该成为亿万富翁。
Those are the incredible breakthroughs that are really improving the world and improving people’s lives, or at least have the potential to.
这些令人难以置信的突破确实正在改善世界，改善人们的生活，或者至少有潜力。
We have some first attempts at that ResearchHub, but it’s a much bigger problem to try to make science and engineering more efficient.
我们在该研究中心进行了一些初步尝试，但试图提高科学和工程效率是一个更大的问题。
If genetic engineering of our children truly were possible, would parents choose to have too many or too few autistic children?
如果我们的孩子的基因工程真的可能，父母会选择生太多还是太少的自闭症孩子？
I think a lot of people are worried about this idea.
我想很多人都对这个想法感到担忧。
Something like autism is a great example.
像自闭症这样的事情就是一个很好的例子。
It has some drawbacks, but it has some incredible benefits.
它有一些缺点，但也有一些令人难以置信的好处。
Will people choose to just move away from these things?
人们会选择远离这些东西吗？
The thing that they’re not contemplating, I think, is that there’s such great variety in human preferences, and people have a desire for uniqueness too.
我认为，他们没有考虑到的是，人类的喜好多种多样，而且人们也渴望独特性。
It’s almost like you see these avatars in video games.
这几乎就像你在电子游戏中看到这些化身一样。
When you can dress up your avatar however you want, it gets boring to be the stereotypical tall or whatever attribute you’d want to name.
当你可以随心所欲地打扮你的头像时，成为刻板印象中的高个子或任何你想要命名的属性就会变得无聊。
People start to come up with the crazy, wild things.
人们开始想出一些疯狂、狂野的东西。
To get back to your question, I don’t think it’ll be too many or too few.
回到你的问题，我认为不会太多或太少。
It’s like the people who are really interested in that might opt to move more in that direction.
就像真正对此感兴趣的人可能会选择朝这个方向更多地前进。
The people who aren’t will move in other directions, and we’ll just have more creativity and variety.
那些不这样做的人会转向其他方向，而我们就会有更多的创造力和多样性。
On the future of crypto regulation
关于加密货币监管的未来
Now, the sector that Coinbase works in, in the longer run, what will the regulation of that sector look like?
现在，Coinbase 所在的行业，从长远来看，该行业的监管会是什么样子？
Will you be regulated like clearinghouses, like banks, like commodity brokerages?
你会像清算所、银行、商品经纪公司一样受到监管吗？
How is that going to be?
那会怎样呢？
Well, of course, crypto is really touching many different industries, and they’ll each be regulated a little bit differently.
嗯，当然，加密货币确实涉及许多不同的行业，并且每个行业的监管都略有不同。
There will be custodians for crypto that are regulated like trust companies or banks, and there will be brokerages for crypto that are regulated like brokerages.
将会有像信托公司或银行一样受到监管的加密货币托管人，也会有像经纪公司一样受到监管的加密货币经纪公司。
There will be exchanges that need to have an ETS license.
有些交易所需要获得 ETS 许可证。
There’ll be, even, payments or remittance companies.
甚至还会有支付或汇款公司。
Also, by the way, there’ll be some that are just not regulated like traditional financial services.
另外，顺便说一下，有些服务不像传统金融服务那样受到监管。
They’re just software companies.
他们只是软件公司。
For instance, if you’re creating what’s called a self-hosted wallet, which means you, the company, never take possession of customer funds, but you’re just enabling people to store their own crypto and use it — those, I think, will be regulated more like software companies, which allows them to move quicker and launch in every country on day one, and a lot of benefits like that.
例如，如果你正在创建所谓的自托管钱包，这意味着你，公司，永远不会占有客户资金，而你只是让人们能够存储自己的加密货币并使用它 - 我认为，这些将更像软件公司一样受到监管，这使他们能够更快地行动并在第一天就在每个国家推出，并且有很多类似的好处。
Crypto is really touching many different industries, and they’ll each be regulated differently.
加密货币确实涉及许多不同的行业，并且每个行业都会受到不同的监管。
Should those wallets themselves then be regulated like banks and, say, forced to have capital requirements?
那么这些钱包本身是否应该像银行一样受到监管，例如被迫满足资本要求？
Because I could hold the wallet.
因为我可以拿着钱包。
I could make loans.
我可以贷款。
I could do something that could be a bit like taking deposits, I could be transforming relatively illiquid assets into fairly liquid demand liabilities, and we recreate the problem of runs.
我可以做一些类似于吸收存款的事情，我可以将流动性相对较差的资产转化为流动性相当强的需求负债，然后我们就会重现挤兑问题。
What should regulators do about that, if anything?
如果有的话，监管机构应该采取什么措施？
If you’re talking about a crypto company that’s actually storing customer funds, then the next question you have to ask is, do they have a reserve ratio?
如果您谈论的是一家实际上存储客户资金的加密货币公司，那么您要问的下一个问题是，他们有准备金率吗？
Or are they storing 100 percent of those assets?
或者他们是否存储了 100% 的资产？
Or have they lent out a bunch of them and are doing more .
或者他们已经借出了一堆并且正在做更多的事情。
.
。
.
。
Obviously, if you’re in a world of fractional reserve, then you would probably be regulated like a bank.
显然，如果你处于一个部分准备金的世界，那么你可能会像银行一样受到监管。
If you are storing 100 percent of customer assets and you’re not in any kind of fractional reserve, then you might be regulated more like a money transmitter or someone like that.
如果您存储 100% 的客户资产，并且不存在任何形式的部分准备金，那么您可能会像货币转移者或类似的人一样受到监管。
This is one of these fascinating things where, whenever you’re trying to create something new in a regulated industry — which is where a lot of the opportunities are for entrepreneurs — you always go to the regulators, and they’re like, “We have a box for this, and one for this, and one for this.” You come and you’re like, “Mine’s like none of those boxes.
这是令人着迷的事情之一，每当你试图在受监管的行业中创造新事物时——这对企业家来说有很多机会——你总是去找监管机构，他们会说，“我们有一个盒子可以做这个，一个盒子可以做这个，另一个盒子可以做这个。”你来了之后会说，“我的盒子和那些盒子都不一样。
Should we make a new one, or do we check the one that’s closest?”
我们应该制作一个新的，还是检查最接近的一个？”
This is one of these fascinating things where, whenever you’re trying to create something new in a regulated industry — which is where a lot of the opportunities are for entrepreneurs — you always go to the regulators, and they’re like, “We have a box for this, and one for this, and one for this.” You come and you’re like, “Mine’s like none of those boxes.
这是令人着迷的事情之一，每当你试图在受监管的行业中创造新事物时——这对企业家来说有很多机会——你总是去找监管机构，他们会说，“我们有一个盒子可以做这个，一个盒子可以做这个，另一个盒子可以做这个。”你来了之后会说，“我的盒子和那些盒子都不一样。
Should we make a new one, or do we check the one that’s closest?”
我们应该制作一个新的，还是检查最接近的一个？”
Most people in the world are not as excited as entrepreneurs to try to make the new box.
世界上大多数人并不像企业家那样对尝试制造新盒子感到兴奋。
There’s such an art to this.
这是一门艺术。
I actually feel like half of the innovation we do is on technology and the other half we do is on regulatory compliance and policy and things like that, just trying to explain it’s not quite like any of those boxes and work with them to come up with a solution.
实际上，我觉得我们所做的一半创新是在技术上，另一半是在监管合规性和政策等方面，只是试图解释它与这些盒子不太一样，并与他们合作提出解决方案。
Do you worry then about regulation becoming countercyclical?
那么您是否担心监管会变得反周期？
Say you issue some liabilities, and you hold a bunch of assets.
假设您发行了一些负债，并且持有大量资产。
When the value of assets is high, it’s like 100 percent reserves.
当资产价值很高时，就相当于 100% 的储备。
Something bad happens to the economy.
经济发生了一些不好的事情。
The value of the assets falls.
资产价值下降。
You’re now not really 100 percent reserves anymore, so they come in, and they regulate you more strictly, and then the value of your own enterprise falls.
你现在不再是真正100%的储备了，所以他们进来了，他们对你的监管更严格，然后你自己企业的价值就会下降。
Then the problem becomes worse, and the regulations have to keep on becoming worse.
那么问题就会变得更糟，监管也必须继续变得更糟。
Yes, I do think that as the crypto markets evolve, the regulation around it will also evolve.
是的，我确实认为随着加密货币市场的发展，围绕它的监管也会随之发展。
In fact, we’re seeing history repeats itself.
事实上，我们看到历史在重演。
What is that phrase?
那句话是什么？
Like it repeats but doesn’t rhyme.
就像它重复但不押韵。
Anyway, I’m forgetting exactly.
无论如何，我完全忘记了。
Some of the regulation is happening, like those traditional market structures we saw in financial services are, in some ways, being replicated in crypto, but in some ways, it’s new.
一些监管正在发生，就像我们在金融服务中看到的那些传统市场结构一样，在某些方面，在加密货币中被复制，但在某些方面，它是新的。
We’re seeing things like decentralized finance, decentralized exchanges that are .
我们看到了诸如去中心化金融、去中心化交易所之类的东西。
.
。
.
。
They can’t really be regulated like the traditional way because they’re running on some global decentralized computer, and there’s no centralized entity to it.
它们不能像传统方式那样受到真正的监管，因为它们运行在一些全球分散的计算机上，并且没有集中的实体。
I think in some ways, it’ll look the same.
我认为在某些方面，它看起来会是一样的。
In some ways, it’ll have to evolve and look new.
在某些方面，它必须不断发展并焕然一新。
I was speaking to someone online a few nights ago, and I suggested that maybe the crypto companies that make the most money would be those that learn how to work with regulated banks and to merge their products into that highly regulated structure.
几天前的晚上，我在网上与某人交谈，我建议，也许赚最多钱的加密货币公司将是那些学习如何与受监管的银行合作并将其产品合并到高度监管的结构中的公司。
Agree or disagree?
同意还是不同意？
I disagree.
我不同意。
Balaji will tell you the opposite, right?
巴拉吉会告诉你相反的情况，对吗？
The future is going to be some kind of radically decentralized setup that the regulators won’t even be able to get at.
未来将是某种监管机构甚至无法实现的彻底去中心化的设置。
Well, I disagree that integrating with the traditional banks would be the best way to go forward.
嗯，我不同意与传统银行整合是前进的最佳方式。
The reason is that traditional banks are notoriously slow at adopting new technology.
原因是传统银行在采用新技术方面进展缓慢。
That’s because they are so heavily regulated.
那是因为它们受到严格的监管。
You could almost say they’re like quasi-government institutions, even in the United States.
你几乎可以说它们就像准政府机构，即使在美国也是如此。
Their decision-making at the top level is the board and the CEOs, and everything is largely about “How do we not get on the bad side of the regulators?” It’s almost like a risk function is the mindset at the very top.
他们的最高层决策权是董事会和首席执行官，一切都主要围绕“我们如何不得罪监管机构？”这几乎就像风险职能是最高层的心态一样。
I know that that’s probably not entirely true throughout their entire organization.
我知道在他们的整个组织中这可能并不完全正确。
Many of them are trying to become more like tech companies, but I think it’s hard to deny that banks are very slow at adopting new technologies.
他们中的许多人都在努力变得更像科技公司，但我认为很难否认银行在采用新技术方面非常缓慢。
I think what’s more likely is, you’re going to see new companies like Coinbase.
我认为更有可能的是，你会看到像 Coinbase 这样的新公司。
I don’t know what’s the analogy.
我不知道这有什么比喻。
Like the traditional newspapers when the internet came along — there were very few newspapers that successfully made the transition to being online.
就像互联网出现时的传统报纸一样，很少有报纸能够成功过渡到网络。
You saw social media and search engines, basically tech-forward things, that succeeded in that arena because jumping across that chasm was almost like too much of a divide.
你看到社交媒体和搜索引擎，基本上是技术前沿的东西，它们在这个领域取得了成功，因为跨越这条鸿沟几乎就像是太大的鸿沟。
Are stablecoins mostly about regulatory arbitrage?
稳定币主要是为了监管套利吗？
Because they’re less regulated than banks.
因为它们比银行受到的监管更少。
But if they were regulated at the same level, why would I want a stablecoin rather than a traditional bank account?
但如果它们受到同一级别的监管，为什么我想要稳定币而不是传统的银行账户？
That’s true.
这是真的。
I think if you needed to go through all of the overhead to open an account to store stablecoins, then it would lose a lot of the value.
我认为如果你需要花费所有费用来开设一个账户来存储稳定币，那么它会损失很多价值。
I agree with that.
我同意这一点。
Part of what’s innovative about stablecoins is that with a self-custody wallet, you can be anywhere in the world, just have a smartphone and open an account in a few minutes.
稳定币的创新之处在于，有了自我托管钱包，您可以在世界任何地方，只需拥有一部智能手机并在几分钟内开设一个账户。
That’s a big deal.
这是一件大事。
There are a lot of people in the world who wish they could open a bank account, but they’re unbanked, they’re underbanked — all these kinds of words.
世界上有很多人希望自己能开设一个银行账户，但他们没有银行账户，他们的银行账户不足——诸如此类的词语。
Where do you think the changing regulatory landscape is headed?
您认为不断变化的监管环境将走向何方？
If you think about the Bank Company Holding Act of 1987, among other things, it creates a certain separation between banks and commerce.
如果你考虑一下 1987 年的《银行公司控股法》，除其他外，它在银行和商业之间造成了一定的分离。
And so far as fintech and banks either work together or use each other’s ideas — that seems to break down the traditional separation between banking and commerce.
到目前为止，金融科技和银行要么合作，要么利用彼此的想法——这似乎打破了银行业和商业之间的传统分离。
That, in turn, gets the FDIC worried about the values of which assets they’re actually protecting.
这反过来又让 FDIC 担心他们实际保护的资产的价值。
What’s the long-run regulatory equilibrium there?
那里的长期监管均衡是什么？
I’m not sure.
我不知道。
That might be a little above my pay grade.
这可能比我的工资等级略高一些。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Do you have a thought on it?
你有什么想法吗？
It’s the world you’ll be living in, right?
这就是你将生活的世界，对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Arguably, pretty soon.
可以说，很快。
So, how Coinbase positions itself — imagine there will be some larger superstructure that tries to regulate everything in some way.
那么，Coinbase 如何定位自己——想象一下会有一些更大的上层建筑试图以某种方式监管一切。
That’s what I would expect.
这正是我所期望的。
It would be very hard for them to do that.
他们很难做到这一点。
But as stablecoins become larger, say, as plausibly they might, at some point, banks yelp.
但随着稳定币变得越来越大，比如说，在某些时候，银行可能会大喊大叫。
Community banks seem to be very good at winning political battles.
社区银行似乎非常擅长赢得政治斗争。
Banks in general always get bailed out when they need to.
一般来说，银行总是在需要时获得救助。
Crypto, politically, is very decentralized, and it’s a lot of — you might call them unusual outsiders who don’t necessarily have political clout, even if they have a lot of money.
从政治上来说，加密货币是非常去中心化的，而且有很多——你可能会称他们为不寻常的局外人，他们不一定具有政治影响力，即使他们有很多钱。
So, if crypto, on average, loses those battles, and the Fed, FDIC, and other regulators try to bring you all under the same umbrella, I would think, personally, that’s the future, and that, actually, Coinbase is fairly well positioned for that, precisely because you have fewer problems with the regulators.
因此，如果加密货币平均而言输掉了这些战斗，并且美联储、FDIC 和其他监管机构试图将所有人纳入同一保护伞下，我个人认为，这就是未来，而实际上，Coinbase 在这方面处于相当有利的位置，正是因为监管机构的问题较少。
That’s what I think about when I think about the future of your sector, what that political equilibrium will look like.
当我思考你所在行业的未来时，这就是我所思考的，政治平衡会是什么样子。
I think it’s true that companies like Coinbase could be pulled into those regulatory frameworks more and more, especially if you look at the piece of our business where we actually are storing customer assets and looking more like at least the money transmitter, if not a bank longer term.
我认为像 Coinbase 这样的公司确实可以越来越多地被纳入这些监管框架，特别是如果你看看我们实际上存储客户资产的业务部分，并且从长远来看，如果不是银行的话，至少看起来更像是货币传输者。
Of course, I should mention the parent company Coinbase has different subs, and one of those is a self-custody wallet, which is regulated more like a software company than a financial service company because it never takes custody of any customer funds.
当然，我应该提到母公司 Coinbase 有不同的子公司，其中之一是自我托管钱包，它的监管更像是软件公司而不是金融服务公司，因为它从不托管任何客户资金。
Of course, there are many other crypto companies who are following that model.
当然，还有许多其他加密货币公司也在效仿这种模式。
I don’t really see a world where those would be treated like banks.
我真的不认为这些会像银行一样被对待。
That would have to be a massive redefinition of what it means to be a bank because you have to take deposits.
这必须对银行的意义进行大规模的重新定义，因为你必须吸收存款。
Those companies are not really taking deposits in any sense of the word that I can think of.
从我能想到的任何意义上来说，这些公司并没有真正吸收存款。
Those, I think, would operate in a new regulatory environment, and that’s where you’re probably going to see a big unlock of innovation.
我认为，这些将在新的监管环境中运作，而这正是你可能会看到创新的巨大释放的地方。
This is like one of these trends of history.
这就像历史趋势之一。
It’s like whenever you see something like software or the internet or whatever that’s operating outside of a massive regulatory oversight, you see this flourishing of innovation.
就像每当你看到软件、互联网或任何在大规模监管监督之外运行的东西时，你就会看到创新的蓬勃发展。
I think you’ll see that with the self-custody aspect of crypto as well.
我想你也会在加密货币的自我托管方面看到这一点。
On the Brian Armstrong production function
关于布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗生产函数
Now, our final segment is about what I call the Brian Armstrong production function, and here there is no room for modesty whatsoever.
现在，我们的最后一部分是关于我所说的布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗生产函数，这里没有任何谦虚的余地。
Coinbase has been a big success.
Coinbase 取得了巨大成功。
What exactly is it about you that made that possible?
你究竟是什么让这一切成为可能？
Yes, you’re smart or you worked hard or seven other things, but what’s actually the unusual side of you that accounts for the success of Coinbase relative to your competitors?
是的，你很聪明，或者你很努力，或者还有其他七件事，但实际上，你的不寻常的一面是什么，导致了 Coinbase 相对于你的竞争对手的成功？
Well, let’s see.
好吧，让我们看看。
There’s one aspect that I think was important, which was I don’t have the same risk aversion as some people.
我认为有一个方面很重要，那就是我不像某些人那样厌恶风险。
I’m actually not very risk-loving in the rest of my life.
事实上，我这辈子都不太喜欢冒险。
I don’t really do BASE jumping or any extreme sports or anything like that.
我真的不做定点跳伞或任何极限运动或类似的运动。
I’ve never really understood this.
我从来没有真正理解过这一点。
When I read the bitcoin white paper, I thought about it for a few years, and I said, “Hey, maybe there’ll be something like a cool company that’d be built in this space that would help people use this.” In my view, I was like, “Why don’t I go try this?
当我阅读比特币白皮书时，我思考了几年，然后我说：“嘿，也许会在这个领域建立一家很酷的公司，帮助人们使用它。”在我看来，我当时想，“我为什么不去尝试一下呢？
This sounds really cool.
这听起来真的很酷。
I’m interested in it.”
我对此很感兴趣。”
Most people, for whatever reason, don’t do that.
大多数人，无论出于何种原因，都不会这样做。
It’s one of those entrepreneurial skill sets.
这是创业技能之一。
That’s number one, I would say, is just maybe some risk aversion or willing to try something new even if I’m the only one who thought it was interesting in my friend circle.
我想说，第一可能只是某种风险规避或愿意尝试新事物，即使我是朋友圈中唯一认为这很有趣的人。
The second might be determination and just being relentless.
第二个可能是决心和坚持不懈。
There is something about that where I’m uncharacteristically determined.
在这方面，我有一种不同寻常的决心。
Building a start-up is like moving from one setback to the next with enthusiasm.
创办一家初创企业就像满怀热情从一次挫折走向下一次挫折。
You get sued by various people.
你会被不同的人起诉。
Employees quit.
员工辞职了。
You’re almost out of money.
你快没钱了。
There are cybersecurity risks.
存在网络安全风险。
And people will have all these kinds of people issues and fighting.
人们会遇到各种各样的人际问题和争吵。
There are just nonstop issues.
只是有不间断的问题。
I’ve just always been very determined.
我一直都很坚定。
Having a little bit of a chip on your shoulder I think helps, by the way, with that.
顺便说一句，我认为你的肩膀上有一点不满是有帮助的。
People who want to go build new things — it helps to have something you need to go prove to the world.
想要创造新事物的人 ——拥有向世界证明所需的东西会很有帮助。
I think there was a part of me, maybe, as a shy introverted kid who always felt like, “You know what?
我想我的一部分，也许，作为一个害羞内向的孩子，总是觉得，“你知道吗？
I have cool ideas, but I’m not very articulate, and people don’t want to listen to me.
我有很酷的想法，但我不太善于表达，人们不想听我的。
I’ve got to go show the world I can do something cool.” I thought it would be fun.
我必须去向世界展示我可以做一些很酷的事情。”我觉得这会很有趣。
Those are a few ideas.
这些是一些想法。
I’m sure there’re lots more we could talk about in terms of how I prioritize my day or focus and those kinds of things, too.
我确信我们还有很多事情可以讨论，比如我如何安排一天的优先顺序或焦点以及诸如此类的事情。
Yeah, those are a few ideas.
是的，这些是一些想法。
What’s your greatest interpersonal skill?
你最出色的人际交往能力是什么？
What’s my greatest interpersonal skill?
我最大的人际交往能力是什么？
I think I’ve done a pretty good job of hiring good people.
我认为我在聘用优秀人才方面做得非常好。
I guess that’s more of like an assessment skill of understanding if I would work well with them, and if they’re good at their job across a number of different disciplines.
我想这更像是一种评估技能，了解我是否能与他们很好地合作，以及他们是否擅长跨多个不同学科的工作。
I’ll tell you what I was not very good at.
我会告诉你我不擅长什么。
I don’t think I’m the most inspiring or compelling person.
我不认为我是最鼓舞人心或最有说服力的人。
I’ve gotten a lot of practice at it over the years, but in terms of the early days, especially at Coinbase, in terms of fundraising and pitching people and recruiting, I was never very good at that.
多年来我在这方面进行了很多练习，但就早期而言，尤其是在 Coinbase，在筹款、推销人员和招聘方面，我一直不太擅长。
I was like B or B-minus.
我就像B或B-。
I was enough to get to the next stage, but I never ended up being world-class at that.
我已经足以进入下一阶段，但我从未达到世界级水平。
What do you hope to learn from composing electronic music?
你希望从电子音乐创作中学到什么？
Well, I always love learning new things.
嗯，我总是喜欢学习新事物。
It’s one of those things I’m addicted to that’s just fun.
这是我沉迷的事情之一，而且很有趣。
That’s something I’ve been trying out recently, is trying to learn how some of these electronic music composition apps work.
这是我最近一直在尝试的事情，试图了解其中一些电子音乐创作应用程序的工作原理。
Meeting some other artists who use it and getting some lessons from them has just been a fun way to decompress on the weekend.
与其他使用它的艺术家见面并向他们学习是周末减压的一种有趣方式。
Scratching my learning itch.
挠我的学习痒。
How do you overcome CEO loneliness?
如何克服CEO的孤独感？
What is CEO loneliness?
什么是CEO的孤独感？
Well, the people you work with, clearly, typically are your friends, but there’s a certain distance that they’re not quite in every way like the other friends you have.
嗯，很明显，与你一起工作的人通常都是你的朋友，但有一定的距离，他们在各方面都不像你的其他朋友。
Yet, if you’re determined, and you’re in some ways a workaholic, you’re spending an awful lot of time with the people you work with, and that often breeds something that’s been called CEO loneliness.
然而，如果你意志坚定，并且在某种程度上你是一个工作狂，那么你就会花大量时间与同事相处，这往往会滋生所谓的首席执行官孤独感。
You can’t confide to them about every worry or trouble in the business, for instance, that you might have.
例如，您无法向他们吐露您在业务中可能遇到的所有担忧或麻烦。
Yes, that’s true.
是的，确实如此。
The relationship with somebody you work with can build great friendships.
与同事的关系可以建立深厚的友谊。
But you’re right — it is a little different if you’re the boss.
但你是对的——如果你是老板，那就有点不同了。
I think the answer for me is that I’ve made friends with other founders and CEOs.
我认为对我来说答案是我和其他创始人和首席执行官交了朋友。
In fact, one of the things that’s really helped me stay sane over the years is, I’ve built this group of friends.
事实上，多年来真正帮助我保持理智的事情之一是，我建立了这群朋友。
It’s about 10 friends.
大概有10个朋友。
We get together about once a month and go on a trip once a year.
我们大约每月一次聚会，每年一次旅行。
They’ve all founded different companies.
他们都创立了不同的公司。
Most of them are CEOs of it.
他们中的大多数人都是该公司的首席执行官。
That’s been a great friend group.
这是一个很棒的朋友团体。
We all learn from each other various challenges we’re each facing in our own companies.
我们都互相学习在自己的公司中面临的各种挑战。
By the way, maybe everybody should have a group like that of friends that you invest in.
顺便说一句，也许每个人都应该有一个像你投资的朋友那样的团体。
I think it’s been great.
我认为这很棒。
Last question: what is it you hope to learn over the course of the next year?
最后一个问题：你希望在明年的课程中学到什么？
One thing I think is that, as crypto keeps getting bigger and bigger, there’s going to be more and more scrutiny and attention on us from a government relations–policy point of view.
我认为的一件事是，随着加密货币变得越来越大，从政府关系政策的角度来看，我们将会受到越来越多的审查和关注。
I’m learning how to build out a policy function.
我正在学习如何构建政策功能。
I’m also learning how to build out our marketing function.
我还在学习如何建立我们的营销职能。
To date, we have gotten to where we are largely based on just organic growth, and people telling their friends and things like that.
迄今为止，我们已经达到了很大程度上基于有机增长以及人们告诉他们的朋友之类的情况。
I think we’re at a stage now where, if we really get good at marketing and branding and everything like that, we can even just throw a fuel on the fire.
我认为我们现在正处于一个阶段，如果我们真的擅长营销和品牌推广以及类似的事情，我们甚至可以火上浇油。
I was never somebody who naturally understood marketing, but I’m getting a crash course and talking to a lot of people in the process of interviewing folks.
我从来都不是一个自然了解营销的人，但我正在参加速成课程，并在采访人们的过程中与很多人交谈。
Brian Armstrong, thank you very much.
布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗，非常感谢你。
Thank you, Tyler.
谢谢你，泰勒。