Bob Spitz on the Rolling Stones, Bruce Springsteen, and the Art of Biography (Ep. 277)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I’m sitting here chatting with the great Bob Spitz, the biographer.
今天我坐在这里与伟大的传记作家鲍勃·斯皮茨聊天。
He has a new book out, which I enjoyed very much, The Rolling Stones: The Biography.
He has a new book out, which I enjoyed very much, The Rolling Stones: The Biography.
He has other very well-known books on the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Bob Dylan, Ronald Reagan, Julia Child, and more.
他还有其他有关披头士乐队、齐柏林飞艇、鲍勃·迪伦、罗纳德·里根、朱莉娅·柴尔德等的著名书籍。
Bob, welcome.
鲍勃，欢迎。
My pleasure, Tyler.
我很荣幸，泰勒。
Nice to be with you.
很高兴和你在一起。
Did the Rolling Stones have a long apprenticeship period the way the Beatles did?
滚石乐队是否也像披头士乐队一样有很长的学徒期？
It seems they didn’t.
看来他们没有。
How did they become so great so quickly?
他们是如何如此迅速地变得如此伟大的？
Actually, they did.
事实上，他们做到了。
They worked in a little club called the Crawdaddy Club, which was in Richmond, a suburb of London.
他们在伦敦郊区里士满的一家名为 Crawdaddy Club 的小俱乐部工作。
They worked long and hard there.
They worked long and hard there.
In fact, the first time, and I document this in the book, the first time they show up, only six kids show up.
事实上，第一次，我在书中记录了这一点，他们第一次出现时，只有六个孩子出现。
They’re despondent.
他们很沮丧。
They go and talk to the head of the club.
他们去和俱乐部的负责人交谈。
He said, “Look, play as if there are 100 people there and next week, there will be 100 people.”
他说：“看，就好像那里有 100 个人一样，下周就会有 100 个人。”
Next week, there was 100 people.
下周，人数就达到 100 人。
They played as if there were 100.
他们打得好像有100人一样。
The next week, 200 came.
接下来的一周，就有 200 人来了。
They worked in that club for about six months.
They worked in that club for about six months.
Then they went on the road.
然后他们就上路了。
They played a lot of really crappy little places, the same way that the Beatles did.
他们演奏了很多非常蹩脚的小地方，就像披头士乐队那样。
Perhaps not as long an apprenticeship, but they served their time pretty well.
也许学徒期不长，但他们的表现相当出色。
That seems quite short, those six months.
这六个月似乎很短。
You read about Paul McCartney.
您读过有关保罗·麦卡特尼的文章。
He writes songs when he’s age 14, age 16.
他14、16岁时就开始写歌。
Is there anything comparable in the Rolling Stones?
滚石乐队中有什么可以与之媲美的吗？
No, not really.
不，不是真的。
The Stones never dreamed that they would write music.
滚石乐队从未梦想过他们会创作音乐。
It was beyond them.
这超出了他们的范围。
They were blues singers.
他们是布鲁斯歌手。
Their primary goal in life was to bring that rich catalog of Delta and Mississippi, and Chicago blues to the world.
他们人生的首要目标是将三角洲、密西西比和芝加哥蓝调的丰富目录带到世界各地。
They did not care about writing songs at all.
他们根本不关心写歌。
They saw themselves as authentic blues masters.
他们认为自己是真正的布鲁斯大师。
It was only their young manager, Andrew Oldham, who insisted if they were going to go anywhere, if they were going to compete in the music world, the pop music world, they would have to write music.
只有他们年轻的经理安德鲁·奥尔德姆坚持认为，如果他们要去任何地方，如果他们要在音乐世界、流行音乐世界中竞争，他们就必须写音乐。
They gave it a try.
他们尝试了一下。
This came maybe two years after they were already on the road.
这大约是在他们上路两年后发生的。
On the sound of the Rolling Stones
On the sound of the Rolling Stones
There’s something they added to the blues.
There’s something they added to the blues.
If you were to put your finger on what that was, the secret to their sound, the blues plus X, what’s the X there?
如果你要指出那是什么，他们声音的秘密，布鲁斯加上 X，那里的 X 是什么？
Rock ‘n’ roll.
摇滚乐。
The X is rock ‘n’ roll.
The X is rock ‘n’ roll.
They jacked it up.
他们把它顶了起来。
They hotwired the blues.
他们热线布鲁斯。
They turned it into a sound that we now know as rock ‘n’ roll.
他们把它变成了我们现在所说的摇滚乐。
Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley started that sound.
Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley started that sound.
Then the Stones really gave it extra power and ferocious guitar and gave us the sound that we now know as rock ‘n’ roll today.
然后滚石乐队确实给了它额外的力量和凶猛的吉他，并给了我们现在所知道的摇滚乐的声音。
They also have some songs that are very good.
They also have some songs that are very good.
You could say almost Country and Western music, say, circa 1968.
你可以说几乎是乡村音乐和西部音乐，比如 1968 年左右的音乐。
There’s some other element musically other than just rocking that they’re adding all along.
除了摇滚之外，他们一直在添加一些其他音乐元素。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
They took the records that the American servicemen had left behind after World War II.
他们拿走了美国军人在二战后留下的记录。
They left thousands of records behind.
They left thousands of records behind.
The majority of them were Country and Western records.
其中大部分是乡村和西方唱片。
The Stones grew up, like the Beatles did too, loving Country and Western music, courtesy of the American servicemen.
滚石乐队和披头士乐队一样，在美国军人的帮助下长大，热爱乡村音乐和西部音乐。
Viewed objectively, how good are their melodies, just as melodies?
客观地看，他们的旋律有多好，就像旋律一样？
If you ask about the Beatles, here, there, and everywhere, that’s an A-double-plus melody.
如果你问起披头士乐队，到处都是 A-double+ 的旋律。
How do you rate the Stones?
How do you rate the Stones?
I would rate them maybe a B minus.
I would rate them maybe a B minus.
Their rock and roll melodies are spectacular.
Their rock and roll melodies are spectacular.
“Gimme Shelter,” “Jumpin’ Jack Flash,” “You Can’t Always Get What You Want,” these are melodies that I would put up against some of the Beatles’ better songs, but perhaps not as lush, not as romantic as the Beatles.
“Gimme Shelter”、“Jumpin’ Jack Flash”、“You Can’t Always Get What You Want”这些旋律我会与披头士乐队的一些更好的歌曲搭配，但也许不如披头士乐队那么华丽、浪漫。
Melodies in a different mode.
Melodies in a different mode.
Why was the album Satanic Majesty’s Request such a failure?
为什么专辑《撒旦陛下的请求》如此失败？
Maybe you disagree, but I never listened to it.
也许你不同意，但我从来没有听过。
I don’t disagree at all.
I don’t disagree at all.
Yes, it was a failure.
是的，这是一次失败。
What they did was they were trying to mimic the Beatles’ Sgt.
他们所做的是试图模仿披头士乐队的中士。
Pepper’s.
胡椒的。
You can’t copy.
你无法复制。
You really have to play what’s in your heart.
You really have to play what’s in your heart.
I think they knew it.
我想他们知道这一点。
Certainly, the other people who took part in that, Satanic Majesty’s, knew it.
当然，参与其中的其他人，撒旦陛下，也知道这一点。
The album’s rarely played, rarely listened to.
The album’s rarely played, rarely listened to.
They mimicked many other things quite well, including the blues, sometimes the Beatles themselves.
他们很好地模仿了许多其他东西，包括布鲁斯，有时还有披头士乐队本身。
They did “I Want to Be Your Man.” Arguably, their version was better.
他们演唱了《我想成为你的男人》。可以说，他们的版本更好。
What was it about the psychedelic, or maybe it was studio production, that they couldn’t mimic so well?
迷幻的原因是什么，或者可能是工作室的制作，他们无法模仿得那么好？
Yes, it just wasn’t in their wheelhouse.
Yes, it just wasn’t in their wheelhouse.
They were not a psychedelic band.
他们不是一支迷幻乐队。
They certainly did as many psychedelic drugs as the Beatles, perhaps more, but the music just didn’t come to them easily.
他们确实和披头士乐队一样吸食迷幻药物，甚至更多，但音乐对他们来说并不容易。
They gave it a shot, and then they went back to what they did best.
他们尝试了一下，然后又回到了自己最擅长的领域。
On Rolling Stones songs and albums
关于滚石乐队的歌曲和专辑
Is it true that they weren’t an album-oriented band, the way the Beatles at least became?
他们真的不是一支以专辑为导向的乐队吗？至少不像披头士乐队那样？
I don’t know if I’d say that.
我不知道我是否会这么说。
The Beatles had concept albums.
披头士乐队有概念专辑。
Sgt.
中士。
Pepper’s was a concept album.
Pepper 的专辑是一张概念专辑。
Abbey Road is a concept album in its own way.
Abbey Road 是一张有其独特风格的概念专辑。
Even The White Album is somewhat of a concept album, and certainly Magical Mystery Tour.
即使是《白色专辑》也有点像概念专辑，当然《Magical Mystery Tour》也是如此。
The Stones didn’t do that.
滚石乐队没有这样做。
I think their albums were solid.
我认为他们的专辑很扎实。
They followed a pattern.
他们遵循一种模式。
They knew how to sequence the music so that the music built on the albums the same way that the Beatles built their energy on each album.
他们知道如何对音乐进行排序，以便将音乐构建在专辑中，就像披头士乐队在每张专辑中构建能量一样。
I think perhaps the Stones, when it came to engineering, when it came to production, worked even a little harder than the Beatles.
我想也许滚石乐队在工程、制作方面甚至比披头士乐队还要努力一点。
They were in the studio a lot longer.
他们在工作室待的时间要长得多。
Which, in your view, is their best album, if you had to say?
如果你非要说的话，你认为哪张专辑是他们最好的专辑？
Yes.
是的。
Listen, I am a Beggars Banquet, Let it Bleed, man, those two albums.
听着，我是乞丐宴会，让它流血，伙计，那两张专辑。
All the hits, there they are.
所有热门歌曲都在那里。
That was the hot spot of the Rolling Stones’ career as far as I care.
据我所知，这是滚石乐队职业生涯的热点。
I think those would be my picks.
我想这些将是我的选择。
Exile on Main Street as an album.
作为专辑《流放大街》。
Is that really so great?
真的有这么厉害吗？
There was a time when rock critics would put that in the top 10 albums of all time.
曾经有一段时间，摇滚评论家将这张专辑列入有史以来的前十名专辑。
Sometimes when I put it on, it just sounds like quite a bit of bluesy sludge.
有时当我戴上它时，听起来就像是相当多的布鲁斯污泥。
It’s all pretty good, but none of it sticks with me that much.
一切都很好，但没有一个对我有那么大的影响。
Am I missing something there?
我在那里错过了什么吗？
As far as I care, no. I’ve had friends who would call me on the carpet for that.
据我所知，没有。我有一些朋友会为此在地毯上打电话给我。
A lot of people hear that album in a different way than you and I heard it.
很多人听这张专辑的方式与你我不同。
They hear it as something authentic, something that moves from genre to genre.
他们认为这是一种真实的东西，一种从一个流派转移到另一个流派的东西。
There are blues songs, there are rock songs, there are Country and Western songs.
有布鲁斯歌曲，有摇滚歌曲，有乡村和西部歌曲。
For my money, I agree with Mick Jagger.
就我的钱而言，我同意米克·贾格尔的观点。
Mick Jagger can’t listen to that album.
米克·贾格尔无法听那张专辑。
That isn’t one of his favorites.
那不是他的最爱之一。
I think it’s because he didn’t really participate much on that album.
我认为这是因为他并没有真正参与这张专辑的太多。
He had just gotten married.
他刚刚结婚。
They were in France.
他们在法国。
Everyone was in France, in exile.
每个人都在法国，流亡国外。
Mick was flying all over the world with his new wife.
米克和他的新婚妻子一起飞往世界各地。
Every once in a while, he would check into the session and participate in the recording.
每隔一段时间，他就会查看会议并参与录制。
It’s a mixed bag.
这是一个混合体。
We hear it in different ways, but I agree with you.
我们以不同的方式听到它，但我同意你的观点。
Exile on Main Street is—I think they didn’t need two albums, and it gets sloppy and mushy.
《Exile on Main Street》是——我认为他们不需要两张专辑，而且它会变得草率和糊状。
If you had to pick a most underrated Rolling Stones song, what is it?
如果你必须选择一首最被低估的滚石歌曲，它是什么？
Wow, that’s a good one.
哇，那是一件好事。
Wow, you’ve stumped me, Tyler.
哇，你把我难住了，泰勒。
I’d say “Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby, Standing in the Shadow?,” which is pretty well known, but it’s one of their top half dozen songs, and I don’t think it’s that famous.
我会说“宝贝，你看见你的妈妈站在阴影里了吗？”这首歌曲相当有名，但它是他们排名前六的歌曲之一，我不认为它有那么出名。
Maybe I’d say “19th Nervous Breakdown.”
也许我会说“第十九次神经崩溃”。
That was my other pick, yes.
是的，那是我的另一个选择。
It was the follow-up to “Satisfaction.” It got lost in the furor that “Satisfaction” made, and yet I think it has the same spark, the same energy, the same bite, the same snap, and it really showcases the Stones in that whole rock ‘n’ roll “Satisfaction” garage band mode that they got.
这是《满意》的后续作品。它迷失在“满足”所带来的狂热中，但我认为它具有相同的火花，相同的能量，相同的咬力，相同的快照，它真正展示了滚石乐队在整个摇滚“满足”车库乐队模式中的表现。
I think it’s actually their very best song, if I had to say.
如果我不得不说的话，我认为这实际上是他们最好的歌曲。
I’ll be darned, thanks.
我会被诅咒的，谢谢。
“Dear Doctor” would be another pick for underrated.
《亲爱的医生》将是另一个被低估的选择。
Absolutely, right.
绝对对。
Which is too folksy to be a seminal or iconic Stones song, but it’s, again, I’d say one of their best.
这首歌太平民化了，不可能成为滚石乐队的一首开创性或标志性的歌曲，但我还是想说，这是他们最好的歌曲之一。
Yes, and there are quite good songs on Hackney Diamonds, which took me by surprise.
是的，Hackney Diamonds 上有很多很好听的歌曲，这让我很惊讶。
Forty years had gone by.
四十年过去了。
The Stones’ music wasn’t as of the moment anymore.
滚石乐队的音乐不再是当下的音乐。
They hadn’t had hits in a while.
他们已经有一段时间没有热门歌曲了。
Yet they put a fabulous blues album together when they were 79 years old, which I find absolutely remarkable.
然而，他们在 79 岁时制作了一张精彩的布鲁斯专辑，我觉得这绝对是了不起的。
On Charlie Watts and Brian Jones
关于查理·沃茨和布莱恩·琼斯
Now, as you point out, Charlie Watts was a jazz drummer at heart.
现在，正如您所指出的，查理·沃茨本质上是一名爵士鼓手。
Did he actually enjoy playing for the Rolling Stones?
他真的喜欢为滚石乐队演奏吗？
Was that just a money thing?
难道这只是钱的事吗？
Did he ever want out?
Did he ever want out?
Never wanted out.
从来没想过要出去。
I think he loved it.
I think he loved it.
It brought out another side of Charlie.
它展现了查理的另一面。
Charlie was a straight-laced guy.
查理是个拘谨的人。
He didn’t say much.
He didn’t say much.
He didn’t participate in the hijinks much.
他很少参加狂欢活动。
When the guys sat down and computed how many women they had slept with, Charlie was out of the conversation completely.
当这些人坐下来计算他们睡过多少个女人时，查理完全退出了谈话。
He loved to dress, and he dressed beautifully.
他很喜欢打扮，而且穿得很漂亮。
Savile row clothing.
萨维尔街服装。
He was a bespoke tailor man.
他是一位定制裁缝。
Dressed to a tee.
Dressed to a tee.
Raised Arabian stallions.
饲养阿拉伯种马。
Had a collection of the finest cars that money could buy.
拥有一系列用钱能买到的最好的汽车。
Never had a driver’s license.
从未有过驾驶执照。
Never drove one of them.
从来没有开过其中一辆。
He was an unusual man, but I think he loved to bring out this other side of him and be the Rolling Stones drummer.
他是一个不寻常的人，但我认为他喜欢展现自己的另一面并成为滚石乐队的鼓手。
Of course, as you know, he was an excellent drummer.
当然，如你所知，他是一位出色的鼓手。
Once we get past the early years when he was foundational, what exactly did Brian Jones add to the sound of the Stones, and what changed once he passed away?
当我们回顾了他早年的奠基时期后，布莱恩·琼斯到底为滚石乐队的声音增添了什么，以及他去世后发生了什么变化？
Not much.
不多。
He didn’t bring much to the Stones.
他并没有给滚石带来太多。
As you know, Brian was the leader of the Rolling Stones at one point.
如您所知，布莱恩曾一度是滚石乐队的领袖。
He founded the band.
他创立了乐队。
He put it together.
He put it together.
He named the band.
他给乐队起了名字。
Brian was a musical savant.
布莱恩是一位音乐专家。
He could play anything.
他什么都可以玩。
When he was a young boy, he played piano and saxophone at an incredible level.
当他还是个小男孩的时候，他就以令人难以置信的水平演奏钢琴和萨克斯管。
Of course, learned the guitar, played every kind of instrument, including the sitar, without ever taking a lesson on the sitar.
当然，学过吉他，演奏过各种乐器，包括西塔琴，但从未上过西塔琴课。
He brought a lot of intricate musical sounds to the early Stones, but once his ego got involved, once he lost his will to be the band leader, once he couldn’t write music, he stopped contributing.
他给早期的滚石乐队带来了很多复杂的音乐声音，但是一旦他的自我介入，一旦他失去了成为乐队领袖的意愿，一旦他不能写音乐，他就停止了贡献。
He really did.
他确实做到了。
There was one session in the book in 1968 when Brian shows up at a session and says to Mick, “Hey, Mick, what can I play?” Mick looks at him and says, “Yes, Brian, what can you play?” Because he just wasn’t contributing at all to the band after that.
书中有一次 1968 年的会议，布莱恩出现在一次会议上，对米克说：“嘿，米克，我可以玩什么？”米克看着他说：“是的，布莱恩，你会玩什么？”因为在那之后他就没有为乐队做出任何贡献。
On art colleges and rock ‘n’ roll
关于艺术学院和摇滚乐
Here’s a sentence from you: “The nascent British rock ‘n’ roll movement was born in art colleges.” Please explain.
这是你的一句话：“新生的英国摇滚运动诞生于艺术学院。”请解释一下。
Oh, well, art colleges, we don’t have them here, but they are a foundation of UK education.
哦，好吧，艺术学院，我们这里没有，但它们是英国教育的基础。
There is an 11-plus test that is given to every student when they’re 11 years old, and it really determines whether or not they’re going to go on to university or they’re going to go to a vocational school.
每个学生在11岁的时候都会有一次11+的考试，它真正决定了他们是要继续上大学还是要上职业学校。
In those early days, a vocational school meant that you’d wind up working in a factory.
在早期，职业学校意味着你最终会在工厂工作。
You’d wind up working as a clerk for the railroad.
你最终会成为铁路的职员。
You’d take on one of those jobs.
你会接受其中一项工作。
Art schools came into being, and this was a repository for people who had talent but didn’t know what to do with it and weren’t that academic.
艺术学校应运而生，这是那些有才华但不知道如何利用并且不那么学术的人的宝库。
Art schools sprang up in almost every community in the UK.
英国几乎每个社区都兴起了艺术学校。
We have people like Jimmy Page coming out of art school, Keith Richards, Jeff Beck, Pete Townshend, all the great rock ‘n’ roll—
我们有像吉米·佩奇这样的艺术学校出身的人，基思·理查兹、杰夫·贝克、皮特·汤森德，所有伟大的摇滚乐手——
John Lennon, also, right?
约翰·列侬也一样，对吧？
John Lennon, absolutely, went to Liverpool College of Art.
约翰·列侬，毫无疑问，去了利物浦艺术学院。
It was an incubator for the arts, but also for rock ‘n’ roll because people brought their instruments to school, and they would play in the cloak rooms.
它是艺术的孵化器，也是摇滚乐的孵化器，因为人们把乐器带到学校，他们会在衣帽间演奏。
That’s where they really formed bands and learned how to play with other musicians.
那是他们真正组建乐队并学习如何与其他音乐家一起演奏的地方。
The art school movement really gave us that whole British rock ‘n’ roll thing to this very day.
直到今天，艺术学校运动确实给我们带来了完整的英国摇滚乐。
Florence Welch of Florence and the Machine came out of it.
《佛罗伦萨与机器》的弗洛伦斯·韦尔奇就是从中诞生的。
Jarvis Cocker came out of art schools.
贾维斯·科克 (Jarvis Cocker) 毕业于艺术学校。
They’re still thriving in the UK, and they’re still giving us new, innovative music.
他们仍然在英国蓬勃发展，并且仍然为我们带来新的、创新的音乐。
On stability
On stability
How is it that the Rolling Stones proved so stable?
滚石乐队为何如此稳定？
They’re still with us, right?
他们还和我们在一起，对吗？
That’s incredible.
那真是难以置信。
Led Zeppelin is not still with us.
齐柏林飞艇已经不在我们身边了。
They could still use the name, but they don’t.
他们仍然可以使用这个名字，但他们没有这样做。
The Beatles, that’s a long time ago.
披头士乐队，那是很久以前的事了。
Why so stable?
Why so stable?
Stable is never a word that I would use with the Rolling Stones.
我从来不会用“稳定”这个词来形容滚石乐队。
Maybe enduring is the proper word.
也许“忍耐”这个词最贴切。
Stability, I don’t know.
稳定性，我不知道。
Their foundation has been rocked time and time again, first with Brian’s death, the drug busts.
他们的根基一次又一次地受到动摇，首先是布莱恩的死，以及毒品的查获。
There are times when Mick and Keith don’t speak to each other.
有时米克和基思不说话。
Let’s talk about their endurance.
我们来谈谈他们的耐力。
Their endurance begins with Mick and Keith.
他们的忍耐从米克和基思开始。
The entire enterprise depends on their rapport.
整个企业都依赖于他们的融洽关系。
Mick being the libidinous peacock, the showman, Keith being the consummate musician.
米克是性欲旺盛的孔雀，是表演者，基思是完美的音乐家。
The great thing about it is they do not interfere with each other.
最大的好处是它们不会互相干扰。
They have different tasks.
他们有不同的任务。
Keith is so happy to let Mick be the front man as long as he can play music.
Keith很乐意让Mick担任主唱，只要他会演奏音乐。
They endure because they love what they do, and they perform.
他们坚持下去是因为他们热爱自己所做的事情并且表现出色。
It’s one thing that John and Paul never learned.
这是约翰和保罗从未学到的一件事。
In 1966, the Beatles stopped performing.
1966年，披头士乐队停止演出。
They stopped connecting with their audience.
他们停止了与观众的联系。
They stopped getting a response from their audience, and they soon came apart.
他们不再得到观众的回应，很快就分崩离析了。
They broke up in the studio.
他们在录音室分手了。
Also, John and Paul competed to be the top musician in that band.
此外，约翰和保罗竞争成为该乐队中的顶级音乐家。
No competition with the Stones.
无法与滚石队竞争。
They really endure because Mick and Keith love being out there.
他们之所以能坚持下去，是因为米克和基思喜欢呆在那里。
The minute they stop recording in the studio, Mick says, “Let’s go on the road,” because the bad boys know that if they are not performing, if they’re not in the studio, then trouble arises.
当他们在录音室停止录音的那一刻，米克说，“我们上路吧”，因为坏孩子们知道，如果他们不表演，如果他们不在录音室，那么就会出现麻烦。
To keep them out of trouble, to keep them stable—I’ll use your word, Tyler—Mick keeps them working.
为了让他们摆脱麻烦，让他们保持稳定——我用你的话来说，泰勒——米克让他们继续工作。
I think that is the secret to the Rolling Stones’ longevity.
我认为这就是滚石乐队长寿的秘诀。
When Mick had that solo recording deal in the early 1980s, I thought at the time, for sure this is it, but it wasn’t.
当 Mick 在 20 世纪 80 年代初签订个人唱片合约时，我当时想，肯定就是这样了，但事实并非如此。
No, Keith thought it was it too.
不，基思也这么认为。
It offended Keith.
It offended Keith.
He couldn’t believe that Mick, number one, would want to make his own album, but more than that, that Mick would want to go on the road and perform and sing Rolling Stones songs.
他不敢相信排名第一的米克会想要制作自己的专辑，但更重要的是，米克会想要继续上路表演和演唱滚石乐队的歌曲。
Keith was just not having it.
基思只是不喜欢它。
He was furious.
他很愤怒。
As we know, he attacked Mick in the press.
据我们所知，他在媒体上攻击了米克。
He began referring to Mick as Her Majesty or Brenda, because Keith went by a bookstore in France and saw that there was a novel written by a woman named Brenda Jagger.
他开始称米克为女王陛下或布伦达，因为基思路过法国的一家书店，看到有一本名叫布伦达·贾格尔的女人写的小说。
Mick became Brenda.
米克变成了布伦达。
To their credit, and this is another example of their stability, Mick turned a deaf ear to almost all of it.
值得称赞的是，米克对几乎所有这些都充耳不闻，这也是他们稳定性的另一个例子。
Keith really slagged him off in the press.
基思在媒体上确实狠狠地抨击了他。
It didn’t bother Mick.
It didn’t bother Mick.
He forgave him for it.
He forgave him for it.
Also, at the height of their rancor with each other, when Keith turned 40 and married Patti Hansen, who stands up for him as best man?
此外，当基思 (Keith) 40 岁时与帕蒂·汉森 (Patti Hansen) 结婚时，他们彼此之间的仇恨达到了顶峰，谁会站出来为他担任伴郎呢？
Mick Jagger.
米克·贾格尔。
It’s that unshakable bond which keeps that band on the road.
正是这种不可动摇的纽带让乐队一直在路上。
Those guys are intertwined.
这些家伙是纠缠在一起的。
Their lives are intertwined.
他们的生活是交织在一起的。
They’re mates for life, and they are the Rolling Stones.
他们是一生的伴侣，他们是滚石乐队。
On Mick Jagger and economics
米克·贾格尔与经济学
Mick once said his favorite economist was Friedrich A.
米克曾经说过，他最喜欢的经济学家是弗里德里希·A.
Hayek.
Hayek.
Do you know anything more about that?
你对此还知道更多吗？
I do not, actually.
I do not, actually.
I think it’s incredible that Mick had favorite economists.
我认为米克有最喜欢的经济学家是令人难以置信的。
We do know that Mick was a scholarship student to the London School of Economics, and that for two and a half years, he attended and got pretty good grades.
我们确实知道米克是伦敦经济学院的奖学金学生，他在两年半的时间里就读并取得了不错的成绩。
He did fairly well.
He did fairly well.
The one thing that amazes me about Mick coming out of that London School of Economics is this.
米克从伦敦经济学院毕业，让我感到惊讶的一件事是。
After 1967, when Andrew Loog Oldham stopped managing the Stones, they have never had another manager.
1967 年安德鲁·卢格·奥尔德姆 (Andrew Loog Oldham) 不再执教滚石队后，他们就再也没有换过主教练。
They’ve had some money managers, but as far as managers go, Mick Jagger was their manager.
他们有一些资金经理，但就经理而言，米克·贾格尔才是他们的经理。
He has served as the Rolling Stones’ manager, bringing all of his experience from the London School of Economics since 1967.
他自 1967 年以来一直担任滚石乐队的经理，带来了他在伦敦经济学院的所有经验。
He’s negotiated all of the recording contracts, their publishing contracts.
他谈判了所有的唱片合同和出版合同。
Every tour that comes along, he negotiates with the promoters.
每次巡演，他都会与主办方进行谈判。
Every date he oversees, he designs the stage, and he invests the Stones’ money.
他监督的每场演出都会设计舞台，并用滚石乐队的钱进行投资。
So remarkable that this guy, a London School of Economics dropout, let’s call him that, has done so well for the rest of the band.
非常了不起，这个伦敦经济学院的辍学生（我们就这么称呼他吧）为乐队的其他成员做得很好。
On today’s popular music
On today’s popular music
A very general question.
一个非常普遍的问题。
Why do you think popular music today has less cultural influence than it used to?
您认为为什么当今流行音乐的文化影响力比以前要小？
An easy answer.
一个简单的答案。
I think there are no more musicians.
我想已经没有音乐家了。
The bands that come out today, they’re performers.
今天出来的乐队，他们是表演者。
They let their producers push all the buttons in the studio.
他们让制作人按下工作室里的所有按钮。
They do sing, but they’re much more interested in showmanship.
他们确实唱歌，但他们对表演更感兴趣。
I think they’ve lost their edge in that respect because they’re not really thinking in terms of studio excellence.
我认为他们在这方面已经失去了优势，因为他们并没有真正考虑工作室的卓越性。
They’re not mastering instruments.
他们没有掌握乐器。
It’s a different form of music.
这是一种不同形式的音乐。
Look, I have learned to step aside and give them a wide berth.
看，我已经学会退到一边，与他们保持距离。
My daughter is of that age.
我女儿也到了这个年纪。
My parents stepped aside and gave me a wide berth when I discovered the Beatles and Elvis Presley and the Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan, of course.
当然，当我发现披头士乐队、埃尔维斯·普雷斯利、滚石乐队和鲍勃·迪伦时，我的父母退到一边，对我敬而远之。
I may not understand my daughter’s music or the music of today, but it’s their music, and I don’t begrudge them that.
我可能无法理解我女儿的音乐或今天的音乐，但这是他们的音乐，我并不嫉妒他们。
Why have guitarists fallen out of favor?
吉他手为何失宠？
Yes, because they’re not musicians.
是的，因为他们不是音乐家。
They don’t play.
They don’t play.
They don’t even play keyboards.
他们甚至不会弹键盘。
That’s all done with electronics.
这一切都是通过电子设备完成的。
I’m going to get crucified for this, but you take a performer like Taylor Swift, beautiful voice and a wonderful performer, I’d love to teach her more than the four chords she knows on guitar.
我会为此受到惩罚，但是像泰勒·斯威夫特这样的表演者，美丽的声音和出色的表演者，我很乐意教她比她所知道的吉他上的四个和弦更多的东西。
How much real talent do you think The Partridge Family had?
你认为鹧鸪家族到底有多少真正的才华？
You worked with them, right?
你和他们一起工作过，对吧？
Yes, I did.
是的，我做到了。
It was my first job out of college.
这是我大学毕业后的第一份工作。
I met a man named Wes Farrell, who was producing The Partridge Family.
我遇到了一个叫韦斯·法雷尔的人，他正在制作《鹧鸪家族》。
Interesting.
有趣的。
There was a lot of talent involved.
其中涉及到很多人才。
Very little of it had to do with The Partridge Family.
其中与鹧鸪家族的关系很少。
Again, they were performers.
再说一遍，他们是表演者。
Most of the musicians, even most of the singers on those albums, were done by studio musicians.
大多数音乐家，甚至这些专辑中的大多数歌手，都是由录音室音乐家完成的。
Boy, I’m pulling this out of my memory because it was 55 years ago, but there were a pair of twin brothers who did most of the singing as The Partridge Family on the albums.
天哪，我已经把这件事从我的记忆中拉出来了，因为那是 55 年前的事了，但专辑中鹧鸪家族的大部分演唱都是由一对双胞胎兄弟演唱的。
My colleagues, Michael Pell and Jimmy Queticus, with whom I went on to manage Bruce Springsteen, wrote a lot of songs for The Partridge Family.
我的同事迈克尔·佩尔 (Michael Pell) 和吉米·奎蒂库斯 (Jimmy Queticus) 为 The Partridge Family 写了很多歌曲，后来我和他们一起管理布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀 (Bruce Springsteen)。
It was a collaborative effort, but it was really a television show.
这是一项合作努力，但它实际上是一个电视节目。
On the Beatles
On the Beatles
Now, Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr, they’re still alive, of course.
现在，保罗·麦卡特尼和林戈·斯塔尔当然还活着。
Assuming they would be relatively willing to be open while they’re still with us, what should we be asking them to better understand the history of the Beatles or their lives?
假设他们还在我们身边时相对愿意公开，我们应该要求他们做什么来更好地了解披头士乐队的历史或他们的生活？
Yes, I think they ought to come clean with the relationships.
是的，我认为他们应该坦白这些关系。
The relationships were often fraught.
他们的关系常常充满紧张。
We understand that Paul and John were intertwined as songwriters, but that only happened for a very short period of time.
我们知道保罗和约翰作为歌曲作者交织在一起，但这只发生了很短的一段时间。
I think we should be asking Ringo a little bit about his background, the fact that he never went to school, that he was a very sickly young man who wasn’t supposed to live beyond the age of 10 or 12 years old, lived most of his youth in a hospital recovery room, stricken with polio and other diseases, bronchitis.
我认为我们应该向林戈询问一下他的背景，事实上他从未上过学，他是一个体弱多病的年轻人，不应该活到10岁或12岁以上，他年轻时的大部分时间都在医院的康复室里度过，患有小儿麻痹症和其他疾病、支气管炎。
I’d love to ask them about how they keep their youth, they keep their sound, again, their longevity.
我很想问他们如何保持青春，保持健康，再次保持长寿。
I’d like to know the secret.
我想知道这个秘密。
I’d like to drink the same water.
我想喝同样的水。
Keith Richards and Ringo Starr have held up remarkably—well, Paul McCartney too—they’ve all held up remarkably well.
基思·理查兹和林戈·斯塔尔表现得非常出色，保罗·麦卡特尼也是如此，他们都表现得非常出色。
Look at Mick, too.
Look at Mick, too.
I went to see the Rolling Stones last year at SoFi Stadium in California, a massive football stadium, and from the stage extended a proscenium that, no exaggeration, was two city blocks long.
去年我去加利福尼亚州的索菲体育场观看滚石乐队的演出，这是一个巨大的足球场，舞台上延伸出一个舞台，毫不夸张地说，有两个街区长。
Mick Jagger danced out and back on that proscenium for two and a half hours.
米克·贾格尔在舞台上来来回回地跳舞了两个半小时。
I had to jab my wife in the ribs and say, “You’re looking at an 82-year-old man.” I know how Mick does it.
我不得不戳我妻子的肋骨说：“你面对的是一个 82 岁的老人。”我知道米克是怎么做的。
Mick, from a very early age, was an exercise freak.
米克从小就是一个运动狂。
As we know from my investigation in the book, Mick’s father was the Jack Lalanne of the United Kingdom.
据我在书中的调查得知，米克的父亲是英国的杰克·拉兰尼。
He had a television show, an exercise show like Richard Simmons, and he always had a great person to show off the exercises, young Michael.
他有一个电视节目，一个像理查德·西蒙斯那样的锻炼节目，他总是有一个很棒的人来展示锻炼，年轻的迈克尔。
He would say, Mike, get down, show him 50 pushups.
他会说，迈克，趴下，给他看 50 个俯卧撑。
Mike, do 100 chins, and Mick would jump to it and do it.
迈克，做 100 下巴，米克就会跳起来做。
That man still has a 27-inch waist at the age of 83.
那个人83岁了，腰围仍然有27英寸。
Keith, on the other hand, is a medical miracle.
另一方面，基思是一个医学奇迹。
Look, we all know Keith abused his body.
看，我们都知道基思虐待他的身体。
If he had nine lives like a cat, that cat has had nine lives many times over.
如果他像一只猫一样有九生，那么那只猫已经有九生很多次了。
The fact that he’s still alive, still making music, still has his great sense of humor is beyond anyone’s knowledge.
他还活着，仍然在创作音乐，仍然具有他伟大的幽默感，这一事实超出了任何人的认知。
Although it looks like arthritis, of all things, has caught up with him—not drugs, not smoking, not alcohol.
尽管看起来像是关节炎，但最重要的是，他患上了关节炎——不是毒品、不是吸烟、不是酗酒。
It’s his body.
这是他的身体。
It’s arthritis.
这是关节炎。
We’re all headed in that direction, Tyler.
We’re all headed in that direction, Tyler.
When you wrote your Beatles biography, you lived for a year and a half in Liverpool.
当您撰写披头士乐队传记时，您在利物浦生活了一年半。
Putting aside the Beatles, what did you learn about Liverpool?
撇开披头士乐队不谈，你对利物浦了解了什么？
Fabulous city.
美妙的城市。
Unbelievable.
难以置信。
First of all, it has the best Chinese food I’ve ever tasted because it was the port where people came in from China.
首先，它有我吃过的最好的中国菜，因为它是人们从中国进来的港口。
That was where Chinese food really originated in the Western world.
这就是中国菜真正起源于西方世界的地方。
It still has a big Chinese community there.
那里仍然有一个很大的华人社区。
The town itself, the city itself, was remarkably beautiful.
小镇本身，城市本身，非常美丽。
I think that’s because all the Chandlers who built those Cunard ships and Whiteline ships that sailed out of Liverpool built all the buildings there, the interiors of the buildings.
我认为这是因为所有建造从利物浦出发的丘纳德船和怀特莱恩船的钱德勒建造了那里的所有建筑物，以及建筑物的内部。
They’re gorgeous.
他们很漂亮。
The libraries and the bars, and the concert halls were all built by the people who built those ships with the remarkable woods that were still around at that time.
图书馆、酒吧和音乐厅都是由建造这些船只的人们用当时仍然存在的优质树林建造的。
The city itself is gorgeous.
这座城市本身很美丽。
The people there have a different sense than anybody I’ve ever met, they have a sense of humor.
那里的人与我见过的任何人都有不同的感觉，他们有幽默感。
They’re Irish in a sense?
从某种意义上说他们是爱尔兰人？
Most of them were Irish.
他们大多数是爱尔兰人。
Yes, exactly right.
是的，完全正确。
They called themselves Scousers because they made a scouse stew.
他们称自己为“苏格兰人”，因为他们做了一道“苏格兰人炖菜”。
They kept a pot simmering all week long.
他们把锅煮了一整周。
Whatever scraps came off one meal went into that pot.
一顿饭剩下的任何残渣都进了那个锅。
At the end of the week, they ate that.
一周结束时，他们吃了那个。
It was called scouse.
它被称为scouse。
They took the name Scousers.
他们取名为 Scousers。
Scousers have a really unique sense of humor.
利物浦人有一种非常独特的幽默感。
That year and a half, it was almost two years, that I spent commuting between New York City and Liverpool, gave me a remarkable insight into the people and a real education about the history of that unbelievable city.
那一年半，差不多两年的时间，我在纽约市和利物浦之间通勤，让我对这里的人民有了深刻的了解，并对这座令人难以置信的城市的历史有了真正的了解。
Let’s say we put you in charge of social welfare.
假设我们让你负责社会福利。
Was it good that the Beatles split up when they did?
披头士乐队解散是件好事吗？
I mean for the world, not for them.
我的意思是为了世界，而不是为了他们。
Perhaps it was.
也许是的。
I always felt that a lot of people run out of steam after three or four albums.
我总觉得很多人在三、四张专辑之后就失去了动力。
If you look at Bob Dylan and Neil Young and Van Morrison and The Who and maybe even The Rolling Stones, after a couple years, after maybe four or five albums, they start trying to duplicate themselves.
如果你看看鲍勃·迪伦（Bob Dylan）、尼尔·杨（Neil Young）、范·莫里森（Van Morrison）、谁人乐队（The Who），甚至滚石乐队（The Who），几年后，也许四五张专辑之后，他们开始尝试复制自己。
The Beatles gave us everything they had, and then they stopped.
披头士乐队给了我们他们所拥有的一切，然后他们就停止了。
We have 230-some songs, perhaps the most remarkable songbook, aside from Hammerstein and Rodgers, that we know of from the 1900s on.
我们有 230 多首歌曲，也许是我们从 1900 年代以来所知道的除了 Hammerstein 和 Rodgers 之外最引人注目的歌曲集。
The Beatles songbook I would put up against anybody’s.
我会把披头士乐队的歌曲集与任何人的歌曲集进行比较。
I think maybe if they had stayed together, they might have lost some of that spark.
我想，如果他们一直在一起，他们可能会失去一些火花。
Think how many more George songs we got from this split, or Paul songs for that matter.
想想我们从这次分裂中又得到了多少乔治的歌曲，或者就此而言的保罗的歌曲。
Absolutely right.
完全正确。
George, toward the end, George really came into his own.
乔治，到最后，乔治真正成为了自己的人。
Even after, in his solo career, we got some real gems out of George.
即使在乔治的个人生涯中，我们也从他那里得到了一些真正的宝石。
I think it took him a little longer.
我认为他花了更长的时间。
More than that, I think he learned how to step out of the Lennon-McCartney shadow and stand on his own two feet.
更重要的是，我认为他学会了如何走出列侬-麦卡特尼的阴影，并用自己的两只脚站起来。
What did you learn jamming with Paul McCartney?
你从 Paul McCartney 那里学到了什么即兴演奏？
Boy, that was an experience.
男孩，那是一次经历。
What year is this, just for context?
这是哪一年，只是为了上下文？
1997.
1997年。
The New York Times Magazine sent me to the UK right after Paul was knighted to talk to him about that and give me a few of his memories of John Lennon.
保罗被封为爵士后，《纽约时报》杂志立即派我去英国与他谈论这件事，并给我一些他对约翰·列侬的回忆。
We were in Hastings in his house.
我们在黑斯廷斯他的家里。
It was a strange experience because I expected Paul McCartney to have an expensive house.
这是一次奇怪的经历，因为我原以为保罗·麦卡特尼会拥有一栋昂贵的房子。
It was really this tiny two-and-a-half, three-bedroom cottage.
这确实是一座两间半三居室的小小屋。
I said, “Do you actually live here?” He said, “I do.” I said, “But you have five children.
我说：“你真的住在这里吗？”他说：“我愿意。”我说：“但是你有五个孩子。
You have three bedrooms.” He said, “Linda said that we all need to live on top of one another.
你有三间卧室。”他说：“琳达说我们都需要互相生活。
That’s what we do.
这就是我们所做的。
We are a family here.”
我们在这里是一家人。”
As I was leaving, he said, “Hey, you’re a musician, right?
当我离开时，他说：“嘿，你是音乐家，对吧？
Want to see the studio?” Of course, that was like catnip to a guy like me.
想参观工作室吗？”当然，这对我这样的人来说就像猫薄荷一样。
We went downstairs, and he shows me.
我们下了楼，他给我看了。
It was a room no longer than say my dining room in New York City, but there were all the instruments from Abbey Road that he had, as well as Bill Black’s bass.
这个房间不比我在纽约市的餐厅大，但里面有他拥有的所有来自 Abbey Road 的乐器，还有 Bill Black 的贝司。
Bill Black was Elvis Presley’s bass player.
比尔·布莱克是猫王埃尔维斯·普雷斯利的贝斯手。
Paul had bought all these instruments and maintained them.
保罗购买并维护了所有这些仪器。
He said, “Sit down.” I said, “Sit down?” Paul sat down at the piano, and he nodded me into a guitar.
他说：“坐下吧。”我说：“坐下吧？”保罗在钢琴前坐下，他点点头，让我弹吉他。
What did we play?
我们玩了什么？
We played a few Beatles songs.
我们演奏了几首披头士乐队的歌曲。
It was frightening.
太可怕了。
I played with some great musicians before, but when you see Paul McCartney nodding you into a song, it’s a different feeling altogether, believe me.
我以前和一些伟大的音乐家一起演奏过，但是当你看到保罗·麦卡特尼点点头让你唱一首歌时，那是一种完全不同的感觉，相信我。
He was good?
他很好吗？
Was he good?
他好吗？
Oh, yes.
哦是的。
I would say he was good.
我想说他很好。
Then I let him sing “Maybe I’m Amazed” by himself on the piano.
然后我让他自己在钢琴上唱《也许我很惊讶》。
That was freakish, having a private audience in a tiny room.
在一个小房间里有私人观众，这太奇怪了。
Never experienced anything like that before.
以前从未经历过类似的事情。
On Led Zeppelin
关于齐柏林飞艇
Why didn’t you like Led Zeppelin at first?
为什么你一开始不喜欢齐柏林飞艇？
Ah.
啊。
I knew nothing about Led Zeppelin.
我对齐柏林飞艇一无所知。
I was in the midst of writing a biography of Ronald Reagan.
我当时正在写罗纳德·里根的传记。
In fact, I had just begun the research on that book.
事实上，我刚刚开始对那本书的研究。
My editor called and said, “Listen, I need to sign you up for another book.” I said, “I’m up to my eyeballs in this.
我的编辑打电话说：“听着，我需要给你报名另一本书。”我说：“我已经尽力了。
I’m not even thinking of the future.” He said, “No, I’ve always wanted to do this book.
我什至没有想到未来。”他说：“不，我一直想写这本书。
We’re going to sign you up now.
我们现在就为您报名。
We’re going to give you a contract.
我们将给你一份合同。
You’re the only guy who can write it.” I said, “Who is it?” He said, “It’s Led Zeppelin.” Tyler, I have to admit, my heart sunk.
你是唯一能写出这本书的人。”我说：“是谁？”他说：“这是齐柏林飞船。”泰勒，我不得不承认，我的心沉了下去。
I knew nothing about the band.
我对乐队一无所知。
How can you know nothing about Led Zeppelin, given all the other things you know?
既然你知道所有其他事情，你怎么能对齐柏林飞艇一无所知呢？
That’s weird.
这很奇怪。
It’s like if I said I know nothing about Adam Smith or Keynes.
这就好像我说我对亚当·斯密或凯恩斯一无所知。
I had been on the road with Bruce Springsteen and Elton John while Led Zeppelin came into the forefront.
我和布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀（Bruce Springsteen）和埃尔顿·约翰（Elton John）一起在路上，而齐柏林飞艇（Led Zeppelin）则走在了前列。
Our paths never crossed.
我们的道路从未交叉。
I never listened to their music.
我从来没有听过他们的音乐。
I knew that they were a heavy metal band.
我知道他们是一支重金属乐队。
I wasn’t interested in heavy metal.
我对重金属不感兴趣。
I have 20,000 vinyl albums in my collection.
我收藏了 20,000 张黑胶唱片。
I didn’t have a single Led Zeppelin album.
我没有一张齐柏林飞船专辑。
When my editor asked me about it, I might have been able to mention that I knew “Whole Lotta Love.” I might have known “Stairway to Heaven,” but I couldn’t name another Led Zeppelin song.
当我的编辑问我这件事时，我可能可以提到我知道“Whole Lotta Love”。我可能知道《天国的阶梯》，但我无法说出另一首齐柏林飞艇的歌曲。
I found myself saying to my editor, “Of course, I’m your guy.” I was really happy that I did it.
我发现自己对编辑说：“当然，我是你的人。”我真的很高兴我做到了。
I’m convinced now that I was the right person to do it because I’m a musician.
我现在确信我是做这件事的合适人选，因为我是一名音乐家。
I love music.
我喜欢音乐。
I was an empty vessel when it came to Led Zeppelin.
当谈到齐柏林飞艇时，我是一个空船。
I just let them fill me up.
我只是让他们填满我。
I really studied it as if I were taking a foreign language and had never studied that language before.
我真的像在学习一门外语一样学习它，而我以前从未学过该语言。
It gave me an opportunity to spend a good year and a half before I started writing, listening to their music, trying to understand it.
它给了我一个机会，让我花了一年半的时间才开始写作、听他们的音乐、试图理解它们。
Asking other great musicians, “Explain John Bonham’s drum technique to me.
询问其他伟大的音乐家，“向我解释一下约翰·博纳姆的鼓技巧。
Explain Jimmy Page’s guitar to me.” I asked Jeff Beck to explain it to me.
向我解释一下吉米·佩奇的吉他。”我请杰夫·贝克向我解释一下。
Jeff Beck was Jimmy’s boyhood neighbor.
杰夫·贝克是吉米儿时的邻居。
I came at Led Zeppelin from a neophyte’s angle, and I thought, “Okay, I can be incredibly objective here when it comes to writing about this band.” I was happy that I had the experience to do it.
我是从新手的角度来到齐柏林飞艇的，我想，“好吧，在写关于这个乐队的文章时，我可以非常客观。”我很高兴我有这样做的经验。
It taught me a lot, and I fell in love with their entire catalog of music that I had never appreciated before.
它教会了我很多东西，我爱上了他们以前从未欣赏过的整个音乐目录。
“Stairway to Heaven,” overrated or underrated?
《天国的阶梯》被高估还是被低估？
Completely rated as it should be.
完全符合应有的评价。
Although I promised my wife I would never play that song again in the house.
尽管我向妻子保证我再也不会在家里播放那首歌了。
I have to do that.
我必须这么做。
However, listen, we all made fun of that song at some point in our lives, but listening to it, I find it remarkable.
然而，听着，我们都在生活中的某个时刻取笑过这首歌，但听着它，我发现它很了不起。
The same way that I can hear Bob Dylan sing one of the early songs, a song that we’ve heard 100 times, “Blowin’ the Wind,” and it can still bring tears to my eyes when I peel back the layers of the voice, of the instrumentation, of the words.
就像我能听到鲍勃·迪伦（Bob Dylan）唱一首早期歌曲一样，这首歌我们听了 100 遍，“风在吹”，当我剥开声音、乐器和歌词的层次时，它仍然会让我热泪盈眶。
I can do the same thing with “Stairway to Heaven” and really appreciate it for what it is.
我可以对《天国的阶梯》做同样的事情，并且非常欣赏它的本质。
On Bruce Springsteen
关于布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀
What can you tell us about Bruce Springsteen’s work ethic?
您能告诉我们关于布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀的职业道德吗？
Wow.
哇。
Never saw anybody who had a work ethic like Bruce Springsteen.
从来没有见过像布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀这样有职业道德的人。
I got a chance to see it up close.
我有机会近距离观察它。
When we were kids, when we were 21, Bruce came into our office and auditioned with his guitar.
当我们还是孩子的时候，21 岁的时候，Bruce 来到我们的办公室，拿着他的吉他试镜。
We quit our jobs, Mike Appel and Jim Cretecos and I, we quit our jobs the next day.
我们辞职了，迈克·阿佩尔、吉姆·克里特科斯和我，第二天我们就辞职了。
Bruce, because he lived in Asbury Park and needed to be in New York to record and to see John Hammond, the great Columbia Records producer, Bruce stayed in my apartment.
布鲁斯（Bruce）住在阿斯伯里帕克（Asbury Park），需要去纽约录制唱片并去见哥伦比亚唱片公司伟大的制作人约翰·哈蒙德（John Hammond），所以布鲁斯住在我的公寓里。
He wrote a lot of those songs in my apartment.
他在我的公寓里写了很多这样的歌曲。
I watched him work and put a band together like never before.
我看着他工作并以前所未有的方式组建了一支乐队。
Bruce is a master when it comes to rehearsals and making demands on the other musicians.
布鲁斯在排练和对其他音乐家提出要求方面是一位大师。
There are a lot of demands.
有很多要求。
Timing has to be right.
时机必须正确。
Sound has to be right.
声音必须正确。
It has to be everything that’s in his head.
这一定是他脑子里的一切。
He knows exactly what he wants, and he knows how to get it out of people.
他清楚地知道自己想要什么，也知道如何从人们那里得到它。
Yet, he is an incredibly nice person.
然而，他是一个非常好的人。
Just a gentleman.
只是一位绅士。
Not that easy to work with.
合作起来并不那么容易。
When it comes to music, because he is so demanding, but really a master of knowing how to work with people and how to get what he hears in his head onto a record and onto a stage.
说到音乐，因为他要求很高，但他确实是一位大师，知道如何与人合作，以及如何将他脑海中听到的内容记录到唱片和舞台上。
My hat goes off to Bruce.
我向布鲁斯致敬。
We’ve known each other for 45 years, and he still amazes me.
我们认识 45 年了，他仍然让我惊叹不已。
When Barack Obama was elected president of the United States, he flew back to Chicago that night to make an acceptance speech.
巴拉克·奥巴马当选美国总统后，当晚飞回芝加哥发表获奖感言。
The helicopter landed in a field near the stage.
直升机降落在舞台附近的空地上。
Obama hopped out.
奥巴马跳了出去。
Michelle hopped out.
米歇尔跳了出去。
The next person who hopped out of that was Bruce Springsteen.
下一个跳出来的人是布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀。
When I saw that, I burst into tears.
当我看到这一幕时，我泪流满面。
We had come a long way.
我们已经走了很长一段路。
Twenty-one years old, rough kids, unformed, unlicked.
二十一岁，粗野的孩子，未成形，未舔舐。
Maybe Bruce, less unlicked than me.
也许是布鲁斯，比我不那么不干净。
Here he was with the next president of the United States, the first Black man to accept that honor.
他与美国下一任总统在一起，他是第一位接受这一荣誉的黑人。
It was beyond my imagination.
这超出了我的想象。
I’m amazed how many of his live versions of songs sound as good and as tight as the studio versions.
我很惊讶他的许多现场版本的歌曲听起来和录音室版本一样好、一样紧凑。
How does he manage that?
他是如何做到这一点的？
He’s a master performer.
他是一位表演大师。
He has a beautiful voice.
他有一个美丽的声音。
He works harder than anybody I know.
他比我认识的任何人都更努力。
How does he stay on stage for three and a half hours and not lose his energy and not lose his voice?
他是如何在舞台上坚持三个半小时而不气馁、不失声的？
It’s another example, a different example of what Keith Richards does.
这是另一个例子，基思·理查兹所做的事情的另一个例子。
Keith learned how to live through drugs and alcohol.
基思学会了如何在毒品和酒精中生存。
Bruce learned how to extend his life battering his body and his voice on the stage for three and a half hours.
布鲁斯在舞台上用三个半小时的时间敲打着自己的身体和声音，学会了如何延长生命。
You can’t explain these things, Tyler, but we have to know that when one or two of these people come along, it really does as well to sit back and appreciate them because you won’t see people like that very often.
你无法解释这些事情，泰勒，但我们必须知道，当其中一两个人出现时，最好坐下来欣赏他们，因为你不会经常看到这样的人。
What does Bruce maximize?
布鲁斯最大化了什么？
It’s not income, is it?
这不是收入，是吗？
Oh, no, it’s not income, although his income is astronomical.
哦，不，不是收入，虽然他的收入是天文数字。
I think he maximizes his open heart.
我认为他最大限度地敞开了心扉。
He has a huge heart.
他有一颗巨大的心。
He loves his fans.
他爱他的粉丝。
He is a kind human being.
他是一个善良的人。
More times than enough, I have seen him after a gig, see kids in the parking lot not knowing how to get home.
很多次，我在演出结束后看到他，看到孩子们在停车场不知道如何回家。
Bruce, in his truck, which he drove to the gig himself, to a stadium, stops and takes those kids home, picks them up, and takes them home.
布鲁斯开着他的卡车，他亲自开着卡车去演出，去体育场，停下来，把那些孩子们带回家，接他们，然后带他们回家。
He would ring the doorbell and walk them into the house and introduce himself to his parents.
他会按门铃，送他们进屋，并向父母介绍自己。
I’ve told Bruce this recently after all these years.
这么多年过去了，我最近才告诉布鲁斯这件事。
We’re both now the same age.
我们现在同龄。
We’re in our 70s.
我们已经70多岁了。
The first time I ever said to him, “Bruce, you’re my hero.
我第一次对他说：“布鲁斯，你是我的英雄。
I look up to you.
我仰望你。
You speak for all of us.
你代表我们所有人说话。
You put yourself on the line.
你把自己置于危险之中。
You’re a magnificent performer, and you’re a kind human being.” As far as I go, in my book, that says it all.
你是一位出色的表演者，也是一个善良的人。”就我而言，在我的书中，这说明了一切。
What’s his greatest musical achievement?
他最大的音乐成就是什么？
I guess it would have to be the Born to Run album.
我想这一定是《Born to Run》专辑。
For me, I guess there are a couple of masterpieces on that album.
对我来说，我想那张专辑中有一些杰作。
“She’s the One.” “Thunder Road.” All of it, really.
“她就是那个人。” “雷霆之路。”所有这一切，真的。
The sequencing.
排序。
I would say “Thunder Road” is his masterpiece.
我想说《雷霆之路》是他的代表作。
I’ve seen him do it with a band and hotwire it, but I’ve also seen him sit down at the piano and play it where he rings every last ounce of romance out of that song.
我见过他和乐队一起演奏，并用热线连接它，但我也见过他坐在钢琴前演奏，他演奏出那首歌中最后一盎司的浪漫。
Who writes a song that starts out, “the screen door slams?” It’s beyond me.
谁写了一首以“纱门砰地关上”开头的歌曲？这超出了我的范围。
I don’t know where that comes from.
我不知道那是从哪里来的。
You have to bottle it.
你必须把它装瓶。
On Bob Dylan
关于鲍勃·迪伦
Why didn’t Bob Dylan show up for his Nobel Prize?
鲍勃·迪伦为何没有出席诺贝尔奖颁奖典礼？
Because Bob Dylan doesn’t do anything anyone expects of him.
因为鲍勃·迪伦没有做任何人期望他做的事情。
He’s never shown up for any prize.
他从未露面领取任何奖项。
What does he do all day?
他整天都在做什么？
Beats me.
打败了我。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
You’re his biographer.
你是他的传记作者。
Bob reads a lot.
鲍勃读了很多书。
He studies a lot.
他学习很多。
He still studies Talmud.
他仍在研究塔木德。
Listen, I was his biographer 40 years ago.
听着，四十年前我是他的传记作者。
He sat on my steps in the village, chatting with me.
他坐在村子里我的台阶上，和我聊天。
I got a sense of who he was then.
那时我就知道他是谁了。
I wish I were his biographer again.
我希望我能再次成为他的传记作者。
I’d love to have another crack at that.
我很想再尝试一下。
I don’t know what he does all day.
我不知道他整天都在做什么。
I don’t know what I do all day.
我不知道自己整天都在做什么。
It’s beyond me.
这超出了我的范围。
You write all day, or you assemble materials, right?
你整天写作，或者收集材料，对吧？
I do, but then the day goes by.
我愿意，但日子就这样过去了。
It goes by in a flash.
一晃就过去了。
I wonder how all that work that I spent that day contributes to maybe a couple of sentences in a book.
我想知道我那天所做的所有工作是如何促成一本书中的几句话的。
It’s magical.
这很神奇。
You have this unusual habit that you don’t start writing until you’ve assembled all your materials.
你有一个不寻常的习惯，就是在收集完所有材料后才开始写作。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
That is true.
确实如此。
Then I write in sequence.
然后我就按顺序写。
I start at the beginning, and I work to the end of the story.
我从头开始，一直写到故事的结尾。
Also, perhaps unusual, is that I don’t edit.
另外，也许不寻常的是我不编辑。
I’ve never edited a word of my book.
我从未编辑过书中的一个字。
I don’t rewrite.
我不重写。
I massage each sentence as I go.
我一边说一边按摩每句话。
Sometimes that works to my benefit, and sometimes it doesn’t.
有时这对我有利，有时则不然。
You might have heard that when I delivered the manuscript to the Beatles, I put it on my publisher’s desk.
你可能听说过，当我将手稿交给披头士乐队时，我把它放在出版商的桌子上。
It was 2,800 pages.
共有 2,800 页。
He looked at it, and he said, “Bob, you know this is unpublishable.”
他看着它，然后说：“鲍勃，你知道这是无法发表的。”
He was right.
他是对的。
He said, “We’re going to do an edit, and we’ll get back to you.” They called me about three months later and said, “Okay, the first edit’s in.
他说：“我们将进行编辑，然后再回复您。”大约三个月后他们打电话给我说：“好吧，第一个编辑已经完成了。
We cut 1,100 pages out of the manuscript.” I read it, and I said, “What did you cut?” It read beautifully.
我们从手稿中剪掉了 1,100 页。”我读完后说：“你剪了什么？”读起来很美。
He said, “Now we’re going to make you cry.
他说：“现在我们要让你哭了。
We’re going to cut another 600 pages out of the book.” They did make me cry.
我们将从书中再删去 600 页。”他们确实让我哭了。
I gave up about 1,500 pages of Beatles stories that you’ll never hear again, that were really fantastic stories.
我放弃了大约 1,500 页的披头士乐队故事，你再也不会听到这些故事了，那些故事真的很棒。
They made the book much more streamlined.
他们使这本书更加精简。
They made it a sleek 964-page book.
他们将其制作成了一本 964 页的精美书籍。
We didn’t rewrite a word.
我们没有重写一个字。
We just cut.
我们刚剪。
Can you talk them into putting out a director’s cut, all those stories?
你能说服他们把所有这些故事都拍成导演剪辑版吗？
We can search it using AI.
我们可以使用人工智能来搜索它。
Oh, give me the three best Paul McCartney stories, and then someone just reads that on their Kindle.
哦，给我三个最好的保罗·麦卡特尼故事，然后有人就在他们的 Kindle 上阅读。
Won’t that work?
那行不通吗？
Tyler, I wish we could.
泰勒，我希望我们可以。
I’m going to tell you why that could never happen.
我将告诉你为什么这永远不会发生。
It’s the same nightmare that I have whenever I have a nightmare.
我每次做噩梦时都会做同样的噩梦。
I moved out of a house in Connecticut after I was done with the Beatles.
与披头士乐队结束后，我搬出了康涅狄格州的一所房子。
It had taken every last ounce out of me.
它耗尽了我的每一分钱。
I was broke.
我破产了。
My marriage had fallen apart.
我的婚姻已经破裂。
I was 50 years old and really wondering where I was headed after that.
我当时 50 岁了，真的很想知道在那之后我要去哪里。
I had spent eight and a half years on a three-year book, and I was wiped out.
我花了八年半的时间写了一本三年的书，结果我彻底崩溃了。
My wife and I moved out of that house.
我和我的妻子搬出了那所房子。
Before we moved, I took all my research and all those interviews, and we took them to the dump.
在我们搬家之前，我把所有的研究和所有的采访都拿走了，然后我们把它们带到了垃圾场。
To the dump?
去垃圾场？
Yes, we did.
是的，我们做到了。
It’s the most foolish mistake I’ve ever made.
这是我犯过的最愚蠢的错误。
I did it out of exhaustion and temper and not thinking.
我这样做是出于疲惫和脾气，而不是思考。
All those stories, I’m afraid to say, are gone.
我不敢说，所有这些故事都消失了。
You and your viewers can berate me for it over and over again.
你和你的观众可以一遍又一遍地谴责我。
On Julia Child
关于朱莉娅·柴尔德
How good a cook was Julia Child?
朱莉娅·柴尔德 (Julia Child) 的厨艺有多好？
That’s another of your biographies.
这是你的另一本传记。
Actually, how good was she?
其实，她有多优秀呢？
She was great.
她很棒。
She was a wonderful person, but here’s the little secret.
她是一个很棒的人，但这里有一个小秘密。
Julia was a great cooking teacher, but not a very good cook.
朱莉娅是一位出色的烹饪老师，但不是一位很好的厨师。
There were people who left her house—and John Updike told me this.
有人离开了她的家——约翰·厄普代克告诉我这一点。
He was a frequent guest with her.
他是她的常客。
Corby Kummer, who was a wonderful food writer, told me this as well.
科比·库默（Corby Kummer）是一位出色的美食作家，他也告诉了我这一点。
They’d leave Julia’s house.
他们会离开朱莉娅的家。
They’d go to a little park around the corner, and they’d get physically ill.
他们会去拐角处的一个小公园，然后就会生病。
They’d get sick.
他们会生病。
Julia used too much butter, too much cream.
朱莉娅用了太多黄油、太多奶油。
She really had no reins on her when it came to using things like that.
她在使用这种东西的时候，实在是没有任何节制。
She knew how to teach cooking.
她知道如何教烹饪。
She had great recipes.
她有很棒的食谱。
She changed the way that Americans not only cook, but a way that they eat as well.
她不仅改变了美国人的烹饪方式，也改变了他们的饮食方式。
She changed the way supermarkets position food.
她改变了超市定位食品的方式。
She gave us the wine industry.
她给了我们葡萄酒行业。
This was all because Julia went on TV and she demanded it.
这都是因为朱莉娅上电视了，而且是她自己要求的。
I was extremely lucky to be able to travel with her in Italy for a couple of months.
我非常幸运能够和她一起去意大利旅行几个月。
That was Sicily, right?
那是西西里岛，对吗？
It was.
是的。
It was in Sicily.
那是在西西里岛。
What was she like as a traveling companion?
作为旅伴的她是什么样的？
Fabulous.
太棒了。
We ate three meals a day together, and otherwise we talked.
我们一日三餐都在一起吃，其他时间我们就聊天。
At those meals, I always said to her, “Julia, you’re 6’3”.
吃饭时，我总是对她说：“朱莉娅，你身高 6 英尺 3 英寸”。
You’re in great shape.
你的状态很好。
How do you do it?” She went, “Oh, dearie, I’ll show you how I do it.” She took a knife, and she divided a line right down the center of every meal that came.
你是怎么做到的？她说：“哦，亲爱的，我会告诉你我是怎么做的。”她拿起一把刀，在每顿饭的中间划了一条线。
Then I watched as Julia ate one half.
然后我看着朱莉娅吃了一半。
When she was done with one half, she ate the second half as well.
当她吃完一半时，她也吃了另一半。
She was funny.
她很有趣。
She was intuitive.
她很直觉。
She loved people and loved watching them cook.
她爱人们，喜欢看他们做饭。
I went into restaurant after restaurant with her in Italy, where she marched into the kitchen, and she demanded to know how many women were cooking in the kitchen.
我和她在意大利去了一家又一家餐馆，她走进厨房，她想知道有多少女人在厨房做饭。
She wanted to make sure that women were being integrated more and more into the kitchen.
她希望确保女性越来越多地融入厨房。
She also had a wide palate.
她的味觉也很宽广。
When we got back to the United States, she said to me, “Oh, dearie, we’ve eaten such good food.
当我们回到美国时，她对我说：“哦，亲爱的，我们吃过这么好的食物。
I want to take you to one of my favorite restaurants.” She did.
我想带你去我最喜欢的餐厅之一。”她做到了。
She took me to McDonald’s, and we had a Big Mac.
她带我去了麦当劳，我们吃了一个巨无霸。
Julia could go high.
朱莉娅可以走得很高。
She could go low.
她可以走低。
She was quite a character.
她很有个性。
When she was young, she lived in Kunming and also Chongqing in China.
她年轻时曾在中国昆明和重庆生活过。
Could she cook good Chinese food?
她能做一手好吃的中国菜吗？
She never cooked Chinese food.
她从来不煮中国菜。
She had enormous respect for it, and it was one of her favorite cuisines.
她非常尊重它，这是她最喜欢的菜肴之一。
I don’t think I ever saw a wok in Julia’s kitchen.
我想我从来没有在朱莉娅的厨房里见过炒锅。
She stayed away from that, and she let others who knew how to do it better than her cook Chinese food.
她远离了这一点，她让那些知道如何做的人比她做的中国菜做得更好。
On the Knicks
在尼克斯队
One of my favorite books of yours is your New York Knicks book about the team in its glory years.
我最喜欢的一本你的书是关于纽约尼克斯队辉煌岁月的书。
Yes.
是的。
Another thing I had no interest in, no knowledge of.
还有一件事我不感兴趣，也不了解。
Somebody asked me to write a book on the 1969 Knicks.
有人请我写一本关于 1969 年尼克斯队的书。
I was a poor, young, up-and-coming writer at the time, and I said, “Sure, I’ll do it.” I didn’t know anything about basketball, but I got to talk to all these wonderful individuals who played for the Knicks, and not only them, but all the great players.
当时我是一位贫穷、年轻、有前途的作家，我说：“当然，我会这么做。”我对篮球一无所知，但我必须与所有为尼克斯队效力的出色人士交谈，不仅是他们，还有所有伟大的球员。
I sought out all the great players who played opposite them—Oscar Robertson and Jerry West—who explained the game to me and explained how they interacted with the wonderful Knicks, Bill Bradley and Walt Frazier, and Dave DeBusschere, a team like we’ve never seen in New York since those days.
我找到了所有与他们对阵的伟大球员——奥斯卡·罗伯逊和杰里·韦斯特——他们向我解释了比赛，并解释了他们如何与出色的尼克斯队、比尔·布拉德利、沃尔特·弗雷泽以及戴夫·德布斯切尔互动，这是一支自那时以来我们在纽约从未见过的球队。
I learned all I could about basketball, and I became a lifelong Knicks fan.
我尽我所能地学习了有关篮球的知识，并成为了尼克斯队的终身球迷。
It’s one of the great things about writing, not knowing Led Zeppelin, not knowing basketball, never voting for Ronald Reagan, and yet becoming his biographer.
这是写作的伟大之处之一，不了解齐柏林飞艇，不了解篮球，从未投票给罗纳德·里根，却成为了他的传记作者。
Very fortunate that I may not have gone to grad school, but I’ve done a PhD in heavy metal.
非常幸运的是，我可能没有读过研究生，但我已经获得了重金属博士学位。
I’ve done a PhD in Republican politics and basketball.
我获得了共和党政治和篮球博士学位。
What a wonderful experience.
多么美妙的经历啊。
I saw some of those Knicks games at the time.
我当时看了一些尼克斯队的比赛。
Now, how did Dave DeBusschere end up as coach of the Detroit Pistons at age 24?
那么，24 岁的戴夫·德布斯切尔 (Dave DeBusschere) 是如何成为底特律活塞队 (Detroit Pistons) 教练的呢？
That sounds so impossible today.
这在今天听起来是不可能的。
He not only played for them, he would come off the bench, and he would sit back down on the bench and coach them as well.
他不仅为他们效力，他还会替补出场，他也会坐在替补席上指导他们。
They didn’t have any money.
他们没有钱。
They couldn’t afford a new coach.
他们买不起新教练。
Dave was a gregarious guy.
戴夫是一个合群的人。
He sometimes didn’t show up because he and his father loved to drink beer, and they couldn’t get it together to get to the game for the next day.
他有时没有出现，因为他和他的父亲喜欢喝啤酒，他们无法一起去参加第二天的比赛。
When it came time to finding who had a rapport with the rest of the players and could motivate them, this 24-year-old kid could.
当需要寻找谁与其他球员关系融洽并能够激励他们时，这个 24 岁的孩子可以。
Dave wore both masks as a player and a coach.
戴夫作为球员和教练都戴着面具。
I don’t think we’ve seen that happen since.
我认为从那以后我们就再也没有见过这种情况发生。
Why did those Knicks gel so well as a team?
为什么尼克斯队的团队凝聚力如此之好？
They were smart, and they were willing to play for Red Holzman, who played a smart game.
他们很聪明，他们愿意为红霍尔兹曼效力，而红霍尔兹曼打出了一场聪明的比赛。
He had one rule, and that was, “See the open man.” That’s what I loved about watching that team.
他有一条规则，那就是“看空位球员”。这就是我喜欢观看这支球队的原因。
They were selfless.
他们是无私的。
They looked for the open man.
他们寻找空位的人。
They passed the ball.
他们传球了。
Today, it’s all, give me the ball, give me the ball.
今天，就这样吧，给我球，给我球。
They want to get the ball.
他们想要拿到球。
They want to score their points.
他们想要得分。
They want to look at the stats.
他们想看看统计数据。
I have seen players today sit on the bench, and the first thing they do is they want to see the stats.
我今天看到球员们坐在替补席上，他们做的第一件事就是想看数据。
They want to see how many points they scored.
他们想看看自己得了多少分。
None of the Knicks in those days cared about that.
当时的尼克斯队没有人关心这一点。
They cared about the team and winning the game and hitting the open man.
他们关心球队，关心赢得比赛，关心空位球员。
On Ronald Reagan
关于罗纳德·里根
How senile was Ronald Reagan in his second term toward the end?
罗纳德·里根在他的第二个任期即将结束时有多衰老？
I don’t think senile.
我不认为老年。
I think he was wearing down.
我认为他已经疲惫不堪了。
His battery was wearing down.
他的电池已经耗尽了。
He was tired.
他累了。
He was too old to be president, I think, that second term.
我认为他太老了，无法担任第二个任期的总统。
He napped repeatedly during the days.
这些天他反复打瞌睡。
He didn’t sneak away to do it.
他并没有偷偷溜走去做这件事。
He did it in public.
他在公开场合这么做了。
He would fall asleep at a cabinet meeting, but I don’t think the senility happened until he had that accident right after he was out of office on July 4th.
他会在内阁会议上睡着，但我认为直到 7 月 4 日他卸任后发生那次事故，他才开始衰老。
He fell off a horse.
他从马上摔下来。
He hit his head.
他撞到了头。
Something went wrong, and it was downhill from then on.
出了点问题，从此就走下坡路了。
Nancy knew it.
南希知道这一点。
There’s a wonderful scene at the end of my book where she calls people together, and she admits that Ronnie is not thinking clearly, and they decide what to do, and then he sits down and writes that heart-rendering speech about his lack of memory, and an incredible moment, especially for a biographer, to get that close to somebody.
在我的书的结尾有一个精彩的场景，她把人们召集在一起，她承认罗尼思考不清晰，他们决定做什么，然后他坐下来写了一篇关于他记忆缺失的感人演讲，这是一个令人难以置信的时刻，特别是对于一个传记作家来说，与某人如此接近。
The very early Reagan, the Hollywood years, was he actually a communist or just a leftist?
里根早期，好莱坞时代，他实际上是共产主义者还是只是左派？
He was just a leftist.
他只是一个左派。
I think he would have been offended to have been called a communist in those days.
我想，在当时，如果他被称为共产主义者，他一定会感到被冒犯。
He was still a patriot, but of course, he was a Democrat.
他仍然是一名爱国者，但当然，他是一名民主党人。
Where he grew up in his hometown, there was a Democratic headquarters.
在他长大的家乡，那里有一个民主党总部。
Who ran it?
谁运行的？
His father did, and Ron came in to help him all the time, Ron and his brother.
他的父亲这样做了，罗恩和他的兄弟一直进来帮助他。
They were some of the only Democrats in that small city.
他们是那个小城市里仅有的民主党人之一。
It wasn’t until after World War II that he went to the other side of the aisle.
直到二战结束后，他才走到了过道的另一边。
What shifts him?
是什么改变了他？
Money.
钱。
An unusual story, but when Reagan was in World War II, he put together promotional films for the army.
这是一个不寻常的故事，但里根在第二次世界大战期间为军队制作了宣传片。
He had read somewhere that the soldiers in World War I, after the war, were excused from paying taxes while they were soldiers.
他在某处读到，第一次世界大战的士兵在战后可以在当兵期间免缴税款。
Reagan just withheld his taxes during World War II because he was sure he didn’t have to pay them.
里根在第二次世界大战期间扣缴了税款，因为他确信自己不必缴纳税款。
It didn’t happen that way.
事情并非如此。
Then he started being dunned for money by the IRS, and it irked him.
然后美国国税局开始向他催款，这让他很恼火。
He became obsessed with economics, obsessed with not paying money to the government, not paying a lot of taxes, and that ushered him right into the Republican Party.
他开始痴迷于经济学，痴迷于不向政府交钱，不缴纳大量税款，这使他直接加入了共和党。
In the later years, do you think there’s still a real Ronald Reagan under the surface, or is he, as a human being, just becoming the TV personality?
在后来的几年里，你认为表面之下仍然是一个真正的罗纳德·里根，还是他作为一个人，只是成为电视名人？
Oh, I think there was a lot of Ronald Reagan under that surface.
哦，我认为表面之下有很多罗纳德·里根的影子。
He really cared about the laws that were being enacted and the relationships of lawmakers and the relationships that he had with foreign affairs people.
他非常关心正在颁布的法律、立法者的关系以及他与外交事务人员的关系。
I think he was still pretty riled up.
我想他还是很生气。
Yes, he was a personality as a president.
是的，他是一位有个性的总统。
He knew how to turn on the charm.
他知道如何发挥魅力。
He could look in the camera and really sparkle like an actor would sparkle, and that’s what made him connect with his audience.
他看着镜头，真的像演员一样闪闪发光，这就是让他与观众产生共鸣的原因。
I think there was still a lot of fire and brimstone under there.
我认为下面仍然有很多火和硫磺。
As a person, what do you think that real Ronald Reagan was like, again, in the later years?
作为一个人，你认为真正的罗纳德·里根晚年是什么样子？
I think he was a nice grandfatherly old man.
我认为他是一位和蔼可亲的祖父。
Yes, I think he lost some of that snap, lost some of the fire and brimstone just in the last few years, learned how to appreciate his life a little more and his wife a little more, retire to his home in Santa Barbara, in Montecito, and enjoyed riding horses.
是的，我认为他失去了一些活力，失去了过去几年的热情，学会了如何更多地欣赏自己的生活和妻子，退休回到他在圣巴巴拉蒙特西托的家，并享受骑马。
Yes, I think he was grandfatherly, but although at the same time never learned how to be a father.
是的，我认为他是祖父，但尽管同时从未学会如何成为一名父亲。
He was a very remote father.
他是一个非常疏远的父亲。
On Robert Caro
罗伯特·卡罗
What is Robert Caro like?
罗伯特·卡罗是个什么样的人？
Robert Caro is the guy I look up to whenever it comes to writing biographies.
每当谈到写传记时，罗伯特·卡罗都是我尊敬的人。
That man has a way with words that has often intrigued me and humbled me.
这个人的说话方式经常引起我的兴趣，也让我感到谦卑。
I was at a party one time, and a guy came over and said, “I hear you’re writing a book about Ronald Reagan.” There were about 150 people in this party.
有一次我参加一个聚会，一个人走过来说，“我听说你正在写一本关于罗纳德·里根的书。”这次聚会约有150人。
I said, “I am.” He said, “Could you talk to me about it a little?”
我说：“我是。”他说：“你能跟我谈谈这件事吗？”
We sat down on the couch.
我们坐在沙发上。
I looked, and I saw over the man’s shoulder, my wife was going, “It’s Robert Caro.
我看了看，从那个男人的肩膀上看到，我的妻子正在说：“这是罗伯特·卡罗。
It’s Robert Caro.” At which point, my semi-intelligent dialogue became bedab, bedab, bedab, bedab.
这是罗伯特·卡罗。”这时，我的半智能对话变成了bedab，bedab，bedab，bedab。
He was an incredibly thoughtful man.
他是一个非常有思想的人。
He sent me a number of notes from time to time.
他时不时地给我寄来一些纸条。
He is the biographer’s biographer.
他是传记作者的传记作者。
I don’t know how he does it.
我不知道他是怎么做到的。
A great read.
很棒的一本书。
Why doesn’t he do more in public?
他为什么不在公共场合做更多的事情呢？
Is it a Bob Dylan kind of thing, or just he’s too busy writing and researching?
这是鲍勃·迪伦那样的事情，还是他太忙于写作和研究？
I think he’s too busy writing.
我认为他太忙于写作了。
This guy writes and researches around the clock.
这家伙昼夜不停地写作和研究。
I have learned not to do that.
我已经学会不这样做了。
From what I’ve gathered, he’s up to his eyeballs in work day and night.
据我所知，他夜以继日地工作。
He lives to do that.
他活着就是为了做到这一点。
That’s his process.
这就是他的过程。
Does he understand how much of a cult surrounds him since he’s not out in public much?
由于他很少出现在公共场合，他是否了解自己周围有多少邪教？
I think he does.
我认为他确实如此。
When he’s out in public, people stop this guy on the street.
当他出现在公共场合时，人们会在街上拦住他。
He’s like a rock star.
他就像一个摇滚明星。
He gets a lot of letters from people, especially people who want to know if he’s ever going to finish that last installment of the Johnson biography.
他收到了很多人的来信，尤其是那些想知道他是否能完成约翰逊传记最后一部分的人。
I expect we’re going to see that any day.
我希望我们有一天会看到这一点。
That would be great.
那太好了。
Why is Thelma & Louise an interesting movie?
为什么《塞尔玛与路易丝》是一部有趣的电影？
We’re getting into my wife’s profession here.
我们正在进入我妻子的职业。
My wife, Becky Aikman, is the real writer in the family.
我的妻子贝基·艾克曼 (Becky Aikman) 是家里真正的作家。
She spent 20 years as a reporter.
她当了20年记者。
She is a brilliant writer.
她是一位才华横溢的作家。
She felt that Thelma & Louise was really one of the very first feminist movies.
她认为《末路狂花》确实是最早的女权主义电影之一。
It’s an outlaw movie.
这是一部亡命徒电影。
There was women who live as men in the movies have always lived as outlaws.
电影中有些女人像男人一样生活，但她们却总是像亡命之徒一样生活。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Why shouldn’t they?
为什么他们不应该呢？
Why shouldn’t they talk the same way men talk and behave the same way men talk?
为什么她们不应该像男人一样说话、做事也像男人一样呢？
Plus, they looked out for themselves.
另外，他们还照顾自己。
When they were abused, they fought back.
当他们受到虐待时，他们会反击。
It’s a controversial movie.
这是一部有争议的电影。
People are still wondering, was it Thelma or was it Louise who shot the man?
人们仍然想知道，到底是塞尔玛还是路易丝开枪打死了这名男子？
We don’t know.
我们不知道。
Should they have ended the movie the way they ended the movie by, we assume, committing suicide?
他们应该像我们假设的那样自杀来结束这部电影吗？
It’s an intriguing film.
这是一部有趣的电影。
It has a Sopranos ending, the same way the Sopranos ended.
它有一个黑道家族的结局，就像黑道家族的结局一样。
Did the movie really end that way?
电影真的就这样结束了吗？
We think it did.
我们认为确实如此。
Could it be a fantasy?
会不会是幻觉？
Perhaps.
也许。
We don’t know.
我们不知道。
It’s a movie that makes you think, and it’s a movie that has a great political undertone.
这是一部让人思考的电影，也是一部带有浓厚政治色彩的电影。
I think movies need to get that edge again today.
我认为今天的电影需要再次获得这种优势。
I’ve seen that film too many times, but every time I do, I learn something from it.
我已经看过那部电影太多次了，但每次我都能从中学到一些东西。
On writing
论写作
How does it matter being married to another writer?
与另一位作家结婚有什么关系？
It’s such a treat.
这真是一种享受。
We write our books back-to-back in the same room.
我们在同一个房间里背靠背地写书。
I can always shout out, “Becky, synonym for avaricious.” She loathes the fact that I would interrupt her writing, but we do that.
我总是可以大喊：“贝基，贪婪的代名词。”她讨厌我打断她的写作，但我们还是这么做了。
We edit each other almost every night.
我们几乎每天晚上都会互相编辑。
We look over our work.
我们审视我们的工作。
We talk about it.
我们谈论它。
It’s the table conversation.
这是餐桌上的谈话。
We get to live our books.
我们要按照书本生活。
To have somebody else who does the same thing and understands what I do and what I go through, it makes for a fabulous marriage.
拥有一个和我做同样事情、理解我所做的事情和经历过的事情的人，这会造就一段美妙的婚姻。
How is it that you write so much?
你怎么写这么多？
She writes a lot, too, but the number of excellent pages you’ve written is really quite high.
她也写了很多，但你写的优秀页数确实很多。
I write so much because I can’t believe that there’s anybody in the world who would allow me to write.
我写了这么多，因为我不敢相信世界上有人允许我写作。
I’m going to keep doing it until they tell me I can’t.
我会继续这样做，直到他们告诉我我不能。
I learned very early on that writing was not a bloody process.
我很早就知道写作并不是一个血腥的过程。
Becky and I both don’t believe in writer’s block.
贝基和我都不相信写作障碍。
If you can’t come up with what you need to come up with, take a walk.
如果你无法想出你需要的东西，那就散散步。
Walk away and come back to it.
走开然后再回来。
Think about it a little, and you’ll come to it.
稍微想一下，你就会明白的。
I love the whole process of writing.
我喜欢写作的整个过程。
To me, it’s like doing a crossword puzzle.
对我来说，这就像做填字游戏。
You have to think about it and look at all angles on it until you’re sure what you’re writing is the right thing.
你必须思考它并从各个角度审视它，直到你确定你所写的东西是正确的。
It’s like solving a puzzle every day.
就像每天解决一个难题一样。
I feel great while I write, and I feel great after I write.
写的时候感觉很棒，写完之后也感觉很棒。
The fact that my subconscious works at night and allows me to wake up in the morning and solve certain things, it’s a fabulous feeling.
事实上，我的潜意识在晚上发挥作用，让我早上醒来并解决某些事情，这是一种美妙的感觉。
I love doing it.
我喜欢这样做。
Before the last question, just another plug for your new book, The Rolling Stones: The Biography, of which I read every page.
在最后一个问题之前，请先介绍一下您的新书《滚石乐队：传记》的另一个插件，我读了其中的每一页。
Final question, what will you do next?
最后一个问题，你接下来要做什么？
I’m working on a project already.
我已经在做一个项目了。
I’ll tell you what it’s about.
我会告诉你它是关于什么的。
It’s about John Lennon’s second act.
这是关于约翰·列侬的第二幕。
It is from the breakup of the Beatles to his tragic death.
这是从披头士乐队解散到他悲惨死亡的过程。
It covers about 10 years of his life.
它涵盖了他大约10年的人生。
I think we’re going to get a picture of John that we’ve never gotten before.
我想我们会得到一张我们以前从未得到过的约翰的照片。
Fortunately, I’m going to be one of the first people allowed into the John Lennon archives.
幸运的是，我将成为第一批被允许进入约翰·列侬档案馆的人之一。
His scrapbooks are there.
他的剪贴簿就在那里。
His journals are there.
他的日记就在那里。
His diaries are there.
他的日记就在那里。
No one’s ever seen them.
没有人见过他们。
I hope I’ll be able to bring this remarkable man to life.
我希望我能把这个非凡的人带入生活。
I think both Mind Games and Rock ‘n’ Roll are quite underrated albums.
我认为《Mind Games》和《Rock ‘n’ Roll》都是被低估的专辑。
You’re in a minority, Tyler.
你属于少数派，泰勒。
That’s why they’re underrated.
这就是他们被低估的原因。
I see.
我懂了。
All right.
好的。
We’ll have to have that out on a different show, but we’ll see about that.
我们必须在另一个节目中展示它，但我们会看到这一点。
I’m going to learn to love them.
我要学着去爱他们。
I am going to come to understand, like I’ve learned about Led Zeppelin, why this person made those albums and what makes them great.
我将开始了解，就像我了解齐柏林飞艇一样，为什么这个人制作了这些专辑以及是什么让它们如此伟大。
Bob Spitz, thank you very much.
鲍勃·斯皮茨，非常感谢你。
This has been a pleasure.
这是一种乐趣。
Thank you.
谢谢。