Benjamin Moser on the Dutch Masters, Brazil, and Cultural Icons (Ep. 212)
Special thanks to an anonymous listener for sponsoring this transcript.
特别感谢一位匿名听众赞助这份文字记录。
Hello, everyone.
大家好。
Welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
欢迎回到与泰勒对话。
Today I’m very happy to be chatting with Benjamin Moser.
今天我很高兴能与本杰明·莫泽聊天。
Benjamin Moser has no title.
本杰明·莫泽没有头衔。
He is a writer.
他是一位作家。
He is an author of a very recent book, which I liked very, very much.
他是最近出版的一本书的作者，我非常非常喜欢这本书。
That book is called The Upside-Down World: Meetings with the Dutch Masters.
这本书的名字叫《颠倒的世界：与荷兰大师的会面》。
Benjamin is probably best known for his Pulitzer Prize–winning biography of Susan Sontag, and he also has the best-known English-language biography of the Brazilian author, Clarice Lispector.
本杰明最出名的可能是他获得普利策奖的苏珊·桑塔格传记，他还有最著名的巴西作家克拉丽斯·李斯佩克特的英文传记。
He has a home page where he writes on many disparate topics, whatever comes to mind for him.
他有一个主页，可以在其中撰写许多不同的主题，无论他想到什么。
Benjamin, welcome.
本杰明，欢迎。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Your book on Dutch art — was Vermeer a Catholic?
您关于荷兰艺术的书 ——维米尔是天主教徒吗？
He was a Catholic, but not originally.
他是天主教徒，但最初不是。
He converted.
他皈依了。
Yes.
是的。
Apparently, he did convert.
显然，他确实皈依了。
He was from a Protestant family, but like a lot of families at that time, there wasn’t a clear dividing line because a lot of times, you would have people within the same family who — some of them would have gone over to the Protestants and some of them wouldn’t.
他来自一个新教家庭，但像当时的许多家庭一样，没有明确的界限，因为很多时候，同一个家庭中的一些人会皈依新教，而另一些人则不会。
Does he have Catholic paintings?
他有天主教画吗？
Yes, he does.
是的，他确实如此。
They’re his worst paintings, actually.
事实上，它们是他最糟糕的画作。
There’s one in the Met in New York.
纽约大都会博物馆有一个。
You mean the Allegory of the Catholic Faith?
你是说天主教信仰的寓言吗？
For example.
例如。
Well, that’s the big one.
嗯，这是最重要的。
It’s kind of hysterical.
这有点歇斯底里。
Why is it a bad painting, or not a great painting?
为什么它是一幅糟糕的画，或者不是一幅伟大的画？
Well, I think it’s because we like Vermeers to be indirect, don’t we?
嗯，我想这是因为我们喜欢维米尔的间接性，不是吗？
We like the suggestion, the hint of something going on, the sexiness of the glance, the gaze, and not being beaten over your head with all this overwrought symbolism.
我们喜欢这种暗示，喜欢对正在发生的事情的暗示，喜欢性感的目光、凝视，而不是用所有这些过度紧张的象征意义来敲打你的头。
At least that’s my impression.
至少这是我的印象。
Isn’t The Art of Painting in some ways a Catholic painting?
《绘画艺术》在某种程度上不就是天主教绘画吗？
That’s a great painting.
那是一幅很棒的画。
It’s probably Vermeer’s best work.
这可能是维米尔最好的作品。
Which one?
哪一个？
The Art of Painting?
绘画艺术？
Right.
正确的。
You have the map in the background —
你的背景是地图 —
Oh, yes, that’s incredible.
哦，是的，这太不可思议了。
— with the 17 provinces from the century before.
—— 与上个世纪的17个省份相比。
Isn’t that some kind of nostalgia for a distant Catholic past?
这难道不是对遥远的天主教过去的某种怀念吗？
Or not?
或不？
No, not necessarily.
不，不一定。
Actually, if I can drop a name, I got to go to the Royal Palace in The Hague the other day.
事实上，如果可以的话，我前几天要去海牙皇宫。
I’d never been there before, actually.
事实上，我以前从未去过那里。
They had not exactly the same map on the wall, but it was a very close relative of that map, where the country is on the side.
他们墙上的地图并不完全相同，但它与那张地图非常接近，国家就在一侧。
Where you would be used to having north on the top, you have north on the right side.
您习惯于在顶部显示北，而在右侧则显示北。
It was thrilling to see it in an interior that looks just like that.
在这样的内饰中看到它真是令人兴奋。
I don’t think it’s a Catholic painting.
我不认为这是一幅天主教画。
It’s a painting that has a lot of symbolism and a lot of allusions to literature and to art, but it’s not necessarily Catholic.
这幅画有很多象征意义，也有很多文学和艺术的典故，但它不一定是天主教的。
Quite a lot of people — Protestants would have done that as well.
很多人 — 新教徒也会这样做。
How do you account for the fact — as far as I can tell, Vermeer was not extremely well known until the late 19th century.
你如何解释这个事实 ——据我所知，维米尔直到 19 世纪末才广为人知。
Is that because it was hard to see them or because people didn’t get it?
是因为很难看到它们还是因为人们不明白？
Well, it’s always usually a bit of both.
嗯，通常都是两者兼而有之。
There are only 35 Vermeers.
维米尔只有 35 幅。
He dies when he’s 43.
43岁时他去世了。
He has 11 or 12 children, so there’s not really that much time for him to make that many paintings.
他有 11 或 12 个孩子，所以他没有那么多时间画那么多画。
They’re also bought up mostly by one guy who is his neighbor, who had something like 20 of them in his house.
它们也大多被他的邻居一个人买下，他家里有大约 20 只。
This was a local favorite.
这是当地人的最爱。
I think that he does get rediscovered, like a lot of the Dutch painters get rediscovered.
我认为他确实被重新发现，就像许多荷兰画家被重新发现一样。
Actually, there are only two that don’t get rediscovered, and that’s Rembrandt and Jan Steen.
事实上，只有两个人没有被重新发现，那就是伦勃朗和简·斯蒂恩。
Everybody else has some story about this.
其他人都有一些关于这件事的故事。
Paintings disappeared into people’s houses.
绘画消失在人们的家里。
You didn’t have museums.
你们没有博物馆。
You didn’t have public places, really, except for churches.
事实上，除了教堂之外，你没有公共场所。
And in the Netherlands, the churches didn’t have very much art because they had whacked it in their Taliban-like movement of iconoclasm in the late 16th century.
而在荷兰，教堂里并没有太多的艺术品，因为他们在 16 世纪末类似塔利班的反传统运动中摧毁了艺术品。
So, it just vanished into the ether.
所以，它就消失在以太里了。
Did you see the big Vermeer show in Amsterdam last year?
您去年在阿姆斯特丹看过维米尔 (Vermeer) 大型画展吗？
I did.
我做到了。
I got to go three times, actually.
事实上，我必须去三次。
What did you learn from it?
你从中学到了什么？
You’ve lived there over 20 years.
你在那里住了20多年。
You already were studying Dutch art for the book.
您已经在为这本书学习荷兰艺术。
What did you learn from the show, per se?
您从节目本身中学到了什么？
Well, I think I learned two things.
嗯，我想我学到了两件事。
I’d seen all the paintings except for one.
我看过所有的画，除了一幅。
There’s one that’s in Japan.
有一个在日本。
It’s this copy of an Italian painting that I’d never seen.
这是一幅我从未见过的意大利绘画的复制品。
I think seeing them all together, you see the break in Vermeer.
我认为看到他们在一起，你就会看到维米尔的突破。
He goes from these very big formats at the beginning of his career.
他在职业生涯初期就放弃了这些非常大的格式。
They’re big, like the one in Dresden or the early heroic Vermeers.
它们很大，就像德累斯顿的那个或早期英雄维米尔的作品一样。
There’s this question about Vermeer, which is, what happens to him halfway through his life?
有一个关于维米尔的问题，那就是，他的中途发生了什么？
He only paints for about 20 years, and there’s a really big break in the style about halfway through.
他只画了大约20年的画，画风到一半左右就出现了很大的突破。
He paints these big, very allegorical, mythological, religious paintings, and then all of a sudden, they shrink into these little bitty paintings that are the famous Vermeers, like the Girl with a Pearl Earring or the little scenes of people at a little table with the window.
他画了这些大的、非常寓言的、神话的、宗教的画作，然后突然间，它们缩小成这些小画作，这就是著名的维米尔的画作，比如《戴珍珠耳环的女孩》或人们坐在有窗户的小桌子旁的小场景。
Those paintings look really different.
这些画看起来真的很不一样。
You can see it’s the same painter, but it’s actually a really big break.
你可以看到这是同一个画家，但这实际上是一个很大的突破。
It’s interesting that during World War II — I tell this story in the book as well — this was a lacuna that invited a clever forger, because the question of how do you go from A to B is really interesting in Vermeer.
有趣的是，在第二次世界大战期间 —— 我也在书中讲述了这个故事 —— 这是一个漏洞，导致了一个聪明的伪造者，因为如何从 A 到 B 的问题在维米尔那里非常有趣。
This forger named Han van Meegeren, who was a Hitleresque .
这个伪造者名叫汉·范·梅格伦 (Han van Meegeren)，是一位希特勒式的人物。
.
。
.
。
Hitler was an art school dropout.
希特勒是一名艺术学校的退学者。
He wasn’t quite talented enough to make it, and he was quite embittered by that.
他的天赋不足以做到这一点，他对此感到非常痛苦。
Han van Meegeren — he thought he was just as good as any old master, so he starts painting these fake Vermeers that are supposed to fill in this gap between A and B, and they’re tremendously successful.
汉·范·梅格伦（Han van Meegeren）——他认为自己和任何一位老大师一样出色，因此他开始画这些假维米尔作品，旨在填补 A 和 B 之间的空白，而且它们非常成功。
I think by the end of World War II, he owned something like 15 country estates, and he owns 50-something houses in the center of Amsterdam.
我认为到第二次世界大战结束时，他拥有大约 15 处乡村庄园，并在阿姆斯特丹市中心拥有 50 多处房屋。
He made bazillions, and they were all fake.
他赚了无数，但都是假的。
If you see them now — and you can see them; some of them are still on display in museums — you think, “You’ve got to be kidding me, right?
如果你现在看到它们 — 你就能看到它们；其中一些至今仍在博物馆展出 — 你会想，“你一定是在跟我开玩笑吧？
This is just totally ridiculous.” It makes you wonder about what do you actually see when you see a Vermeer.
这实在是太荒谬了。”这让你想知道当你看到维米尔的作品时，你到底看到了什么。
Do you see a famous name?
你看到一个著名的名字吗？
Because often, you see the huge line, the website that crashes, the people who flew in from Bangkok and Rio to see this stuff.
因为你经常会看到排长队、崩溃的网站、从曼谷和里约热内卢飞来观看这些内容的人们。
You’re already prepared to see something that isn’t really there.
你已经准备好看到一些并不真实存在的东西了。
Since I know you’re a heterodox person, maybe you’ll like this comparison.
因为我知道你是一个异端人士，也许你会喜欢这个比较。
But in Islam, there’s a famous cliche that every Muslim will tell you, that one of the miracles of the Quran is that it has the perfection of its style.
但在伊斯兰教中，有一个著名的陈词滥调，每个穆斯林都会告诉你，《古兰经》的奇迹之一就是它的风格是完美的。
It’s so beautiful, it’s so elegant, it could only have been composed by divine inspiration or by God himself.
它是如此美丽，它是如此优雅，它只能是由神圣的灵感或上帝亲自创作的。
Now, the thing about this that’s really funny is that if you’re a Muslim and you grow up hearing the Quran, you’re so used to hearing it your entire life, you hear it at every occasion.
现在，真正有趣的是，如果你是一名穆斯林，并且你是听《古兰经》长大的，那么你已经习惯了一生中听到它，你在每个场合都会听到它。
Often, a lot of really pious Muslims will memorize the entire thing.
通常，很多非常虔诚的穆斯林会记住整个事情。
You’re prepared to think it’s beautiful.
你准备好认为它很美丽。
When you see a Vermeer, you’re prepared to think this is the most fabulous thing in the world.
当您看到维米尔 (Vermeer) 的作品时，您会认为这是世界上最美妙的事物。
This is so rare.
这是非常罕见的。
There are only 35.
只有35个。
It’s the only time they’ve ever left this collection in France that nobody ever gets to see.
这是他们唯一一次将这批藏品留在法国，但没人能看到。
You’re prepared to see something by this legend and this name, and it makes it very hard to actually see it.
你已经准备好看到这个传说和这个名字的东西，但这使得你很难真正看到它。
When you see the fake Vermeers, you think, “Come on, that’s ridiculous.” If you try to see it without the perfume, it becomes a real challenge.
当你看到假维米尔作品时，你会想：“得了吧，这太荒谬了。”如果你尝试在没有香水的情况下看到它，这将成为一个真正的挑战。
On Rembrandt
论伦勃朗
How was Rembrandt so productive?
伦勃朗为何如此多产？
Well, he got to be quite old, first of all, by the standards of the Dutch.
嗯，首先，按照荷兰人的标准，他已经很老了。
He was 63 when he died.
他去世时享年 63 岁。
As you know, in the book, a lot of these people die in their 20s, 30s.
如你所知，在书中，很多人在20多岁、30多岁的时候就去世了。
Vermeer dies at 43.
维米尔去世，享年 43 岁。
So, Rembrandt gets a whole extra generation of work.
因此，伦勃朗获得了整整一代人的额外工作。
He also, though, was just one of these obsessive creators, a kind of volcano.
不过，他也只是这些痴迷的创造者之一，就像一座火山。
It’s completely dismaying.
这完全令人沮丧。
I came to this country when I was a kid, and I would see the early Rembrandts in the museums here, and I’d realize he was younger than I was.
我小时候来到这个国家，我会在这里的博物馆里看到伦勃朗的早期作品，我意识到他比我年轻。
He’s already painting these incredible masterpieces, and I was sitting here trying to write some article that wouldn’t get turned down by some terrible magazine that I didn’t even want to write for.
他已经画出了这些令人难以置信的杰作，而我坐在这里试图写一些文章，以免被一些我什至不想写的糟糕杂志拒绝。
He was painting these canvases, like The Anatomy Lesson in The Hague, these incredibly famous paintings.
他正在画这些画布，比如《海牙的解剖课》，这些非常著名的画作。
I think he does, as I say somewhere in the book — we fill it in a little bit, but he basically died in front of his easel.
我认为他确实如此，正如我在书中某处所说的那样——我们稍微填充了一点，但他基本上死在了画架前。
He was an obsessive, driven creator.
他是一位执着、有动力的创造者。
That’s why he died in front of the easel.
这就是他死在画架前的原因。
He also died very poor and mostly forgotten.
他去世时也非常穷困，几乎被人遗忘。
Do you think Rembrandt prints are still underpriced?
您认为伦勃朗版画的价格仍然被低估吗？
As you may know, there was a London auction of quite a few of them a few months ago, and many went for 2x or 3x the estimates.
如您所知，几个月前在伦敦举行了一场拍卖会，其中不少作品的成交价是估价的 2 倍或 3 倍。
Why aren’t Rembrandt prints just totally unaffordable?
为什么伦勃朗的版画不是完全买不起？
They’re very good, many of them.
他们非常好，很多。
People don’t seem to care anymore —
人们似乎不再关心了 —
They’re unaffordable for me.
它们对我来说是负担不起的。
I doubt if that’s true.
我怀疑这是否属实。
I’m not trying to inquire into your personal finances, but some of the lesser-priced ones, I think, you could afford.
我并不是想询问你的个人财务状况，但我认为一些价格较低的产品你可以负担得起。
Well, you have different states.
好吧，你们有不同的状态。
You have the first, the original prints that are actually made by Rembrandt in his lifetime.
您拥有伦勃朗生前创作的第一幅原始版画。
And then you have the plates that are done afterwards or later on, and they’re a little bit fuzzier, and they’re a little bit .
然后你会得到事后或稍后完成的盘子，它们有点模糊，而且有点。
.
。
.
。
People collected Rembrandt for a lot of reasons.
人们收藏伦勃朗的原因有很多。
The Dutch collected him later, really, and there were obsessive Rembrandt collectors who — actually would be a good book for someone to write about the collectors of Rembrandt because some of them were completely bonkers and obsessive, like a lot of collectors.
荷兰人后来才收藏了他，确实，还有一些痴迷的伦勃朗收藏家，他们——实际上对于有人写伦勃朗收藏家来说会是一本好书，因为他们中的一些人像很多收藏家一样完全疯狂和痴迷。
I don’t know if you followed the auctions this week at Christie’s and Sotheby’s?
不知道大家有没有关注本周佳士得和苏富比的拍卖会呢？
Some of the old master ones, I looked at.
我看了一些老大师的作品。
Yes.
是的。
The old masters auction.
古代大师拍卖会。
Well, the top, top of the top of the top is very, very expensive.
嗯，顶顶顶顶顶顶非常非常贵。
It’s going for three or four times the estimate, but half of the paintings are not being sold.
价格是估价的三四倍，但一半的画都卖不出去。
That means that whereas, with these contemporary auctions, you have this totally hideous-looking stuff that sells for $50 million, and you think, for $50 million you can buy a lot of Dutch paintings.
这意味着，在这些当代拍卖会上，这些看起来完全丑陋的东西售价为 5000 万美元，而你认为，用 5000 万美元你可以买很多荷兰画作。
You can buy paintings from the greatest masters.
您可以购买最伟大的大师的画作。
What you see is that the scholarly approach to painting, what the French called amateur, the person who does it out of love and who does it out of study and out of historical scholarship and all that — those people are disappearing.
你所看到的是，绘画的学术方法，法国人所说的业余爱好者，那些出于热爱、出于研究和历史学术而创作的人，以及所有那些人正在消失。
Prints and drawings are the ultimate nerd thing in the art world.
版画和绘画是艺术世界中终极的书呆子之物。
That’s for people who really know what they’re doing, who are really scholarly.
那是为那些真正知道自己在做什么、真正有学识的人准备的。
You can hang a drawing on your wall, but it doesn’t have the what I call — it’s not my phrase, but in the book I say “wall power.” It’s not like having a big Picasso on your wall that everybody thinks, “Wow.” You really have to have gone to grad school in art history to really know what all this stuff is.
你可以在墙上挂一幅画，但它没有我所说的 —— 这不是我的说法，但在书中我说“墙上的力量”。这并不像墙上挂着一幅毕加索的大画，每个人都会觉得“哇”。你真的必须去艺术史研究生院才能真正知道所有这些东西是什么。
Maybe if educational standards continue to collapse, by the time I’m a little bit older, the prices will also collapse, and I can afford them.
也许如果教育水平继续下降，等我年纪大一点的时候，物价也会下降，我就买得起了。
Do you think the growing size of homes and walls and sofas has hurt the market value of a lot of Dutch art?
您认为房屋、墙壁和沙发的尺寸不断增大是否损害了许多荷兰艺术品的市场价值？
It looks better in a small home.
在小房子里看起来更好。
Well, I don’t know.
好吧，我不知道。
I was just reading an Edith Wharton story.
我刚刚读了伊迪丝·沃顿的故事。
Don’t ask me which one because I forgot which one.
不要问我是哪一个，因为我忘记了哪一个。
Edith Wharton refers to Dutch paintings — this is 1900 or something — as a typical show-offy, expensive thing that these millionaires on Fifth Avenue would have in their huge mansions.
伊迪丝·华顿 (Edith Wharton) 将荷兰画作称为“这是 1900 年左右的作品”，这是第五大道上的百万富翁在他们的豪宅中所拥有的典型的炫耀性、昂贵的东西。
And you do have a lot of Dutch paintings that are quite massive, but you don’t always see them because they’re in storage, a lot of them, in museums.
你确实有很多非常巨大的荷兰画作，但你并不总是能看到它们，因为它们很多都储存在博物馆里。
Maybe if you want to build a huge mansion somewhere, in suburban Houston or somewhere like that, you can drag something out of the basement.
也许如果你想在休斯顿郊区或类似的地方建造一座巨大的豪宅，你可以从地下室拖出一些东西。
Who would be a Dutch artist who is good, but when you see them all together in the form of a single-artist exhibit, you think, “Eh, that’s actually pretty boring.”
谁会是一位优秀的荷兰艺术家，但当你以单一艺术家的形式看到他们时，你会想，“呃，这实际上很无聊。”
Well, that’s a sad fact, that there’s actually more of them than you think.
嗯，这是一个可悲的事实，实际上它们的数量比你想象的要多。
Most of them, I would say.
我想说的是，他们中的大多数。
I like Ruisdael, I like Van Goyen, but if I were to see 50–60 together, I would start walking rapidly through the rooms, I suspect, and nodding my head and saying, “They’re all nice.”
我喜欢 Ruisdael，我喜欢 Van Goyen，但如果我看到 50-60 个人在一起，我怀疑我会开始快速地穿过房间，然后点头说：“他们都很好。”
Well, the thing is, Dutch art is for houses.
嗯，问题是，荷兰艺术是为房屋而设计的。
Coming back to your mansion that you’re building in suburban Virginia, Dutch paintings are for people who have 10 or 15 paintings on the wall.
回到您在弗吉尼亚州郊区建造的豪宅，荷兰画适合墙上有 10 或 15 幅画的人。
They would have different people and different artists and maybe a few same people.
他们会有不同的人和不同的艺术家，也许还有一些相同的人。
It’s true.
这是真的。
I think I say it in the book, that if you go through Dutch galleries and museums, if you go through 20 different rooms and actually try to look at all the pictures, you’re going to get completely bored by the end of it because that’s just not the way they’re meant to be looked at.
我想我在书中说过，如果你参观荷兰的画廊和博物馆，如果你参观 20 个不同的房间并真正尝试观看所有的图片，到最后你会感到完全无聊，因为这不是它们应该被看到的方式。
But for me, when I first came to this country and I started looking at them, the more I looked, the more rewarding it got.
但对我来说，当我第一次来到这个国家并开始观察它们时，我观察得越多，收获就越多。
Ruisdael, who you mentioned — that’s one I’d have to stand up for.
鲁伊斯达尔，你提到的——我必须支持他。
Van Goyen, maybe not.
范戈延，也许不是。
Then you have some of them — not everybody is well served by overexposure.
然后你就会发现其中一些 ——并不是每个人都会因过度暴露而受益。
I think this is true of humans in general.
我认为这对于一般人类来说都是如此。
Some people are fun to meet for dinner once, but you don’t want to marry them.
有些人见面吃一次晚餐很有趣，但你不想嫁给他们。
There are a few that you want to marry.
有几个是你想结婚的。
Some of them are just tragic, like Jan Lievens, who is Rembrandt’s best friend/frenemy growing up.
其中一些人只是悲剧性的，比如简·利文斯（Jan Lievens），他是伦勃朗成长过程中最好的朋友/亦敌亦友的人。
If you see too many of his paintings, you actually get almost disgusted by them.
如果你看太多他的画，你实际上会对它们感到厌恶。
It’s more than just boring; it’s gross after a while.
这不仅仅是无聊；它还很有趣。一段时间后就很糟糕了。
But if you see one or two of them, we would think, “Wow, this is great.”
但如果你看到其中一两个，我们会想，“哇，这太棒了。”
Maybe you would challenge the premise, but why does Dutch art become so boring by the early 18th century, maybe even sooner?
也许你会质疑这个前提，但为什么荷兰艺术到了 18 世纪初甚至更早就变得如此无聊？
Oh, see, I would challenge the premise.
哦，看，我会挑战这个前提。
If you ever want to darken the door of this nation, I can take you to some absolutely beautiful places that were built in the 18th century, with beautiful paintings and beautiful interior design, which isn’t always preserved from the 17th century.
如果你想遮蔽这个国家的大门，我可以带你去一些绝对美丽的地方，这些地方建于 18 世纪，有美丽的绘画和漂亮的室内设计，但并不总是保留着 17 世纪的风格。
There’s quite a lot of it, and it’s very decorative.
东西挺多的，而且很有装饰性。
It’s not quite the heroic thing.
这不是什么英雄事。
By the end of the Golden Age, which is traditionally thought to be 1672, which is when Vermeer has to move in with his mother-in-law and things aren’t going very well — the country gets invaded, the economy collapses, and then this whole generation dies.
到了黄金时代的末期，传统上认为是 1672 年，维米尔必须搬去和他的岳母住在一起，但事情进展得不太顺利——国家遭到入侵，经济崩溃，然后这一代人都死了。
But up to the present day, the Dutch were always good at visual stuff.
但直到今天，荷兰人一直擅长视觉事物。
They’re good architects, they’re good designers.
他们是优秀的建筑师，他们是优秀的设计师。
They make that weird coffee pot that costs $400, and you’re thinking, “Why am I spending $400 on a coffee pot?” But actually, somebody thought about how to put a screw in there so that the coffee comes out in the exact right way.
他们制作了那种奇怪的咖啡壶，售价 400 美元，你会想，“为什么我要花 400 美元买一个咖啡壶？”但实际上，有人想到了如何在其中放一个螺丝，以便咖啡以正确的方式流出。
They were always visual.
它们总是视觉化的。
In the 18th century, they continue.
到了18世纪，它们仍在继续。
Then in the 19th century, there’s a series of very great artists culminating with Van Gogh.
然后在 19 世纪，出现了一系列非常伟大的艺术家，其中以梵高为代表。
There’s more continuity than people think.
连续性比人们想象的要多。
But post–World War II Dutch art, as far as I can tell, seems terrible.
但据我所知，二战后的荷兰艺术似乎很糟糕。
Or don’t you agree?
或者你不同意？
Not design, not furniture, but actual paintings.
不是设计，不是家具，而是实际的绘画。
Well, it’s not terrible.
嗯，这并不可怕。
The Dutch — they’re good at photography.
荷兰人 ——他们擅长摄影。
There are some very good painters.
有一些非常好的画家。
It’s not really my thing, so it’s not really the thing that I’m going to die on the barricade for this cause.
这不是我的事，所以我不会因此而死在街垒上。
Then up to Mondrian and De Stijl and Rietveld — those are pretty interesting artists.
然后是蒙德里安、风格派和里特维尔德——这些都是非常有趣的艺术家。
I would much rather live in a huge, beautiful 18th-century house along one of the rivers than live in a super modernist house.
我宁愿住在河边一栋巨大、美丽的 18 世纪房子里，也不愿住在超级现代主义的房子里。
But the Dutch — they were good architects and good designers.
但荷兰人——他们是优秀的建筑师和设计师。
Does Mondrian still look fresh to you?
蒙德里安对你来说还新鲜吗？
Or have you seen it on too many shopping bags, so to speak?
或者可以说，您在太多购物袋上看到过它吗？
Oh, way too many.
哦，太多了。
I live in Utrecht, and what I didn’t realize .
我住在乌得勒支，但我没有意识到。
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。
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。
Mondrian dies in New York.
蒙德里安在纽约去世。
He’s presented as an American, at least on museum labels.
他被描绘成美国人，至少在博物馆的标签上是这样。
It’ll say, maybe, Dutch-born American painter.
它可能会说，荷兰出生的美国画家。
You see him next to all these modernist painters from all over the world, including now, if you’ve gone to the MoMA lately and seen the new hang of the modern galleries, they have the big names.
你会看到他和来自世界各地的所有现代主义画家在一起，包括现在，如果你最近去过现代艺术博物馆并看到了现代画廊的新陈列，他们都有大牌。
You have Rothko and Picasso and Mondrian, and now they’re next to a lot of Latin Americans and maybe some people from the Middle East and from Eastern Europe, so it’s kind of all mixed up.
你有罗斯科、毕加索和蒙德里安，现在他们旁边有很多拉丁美洲人，也许还有一些来自中东和东欧的人，所以有点混乱。
But when you come to Utrecht, you see that Mondrian actually really comes out of this city.
但当你来到乌得勒支，你会发现蒙德里安其实真的来自这座城市。
That sort of style is very typical of a very specific place and time.
这种风格是特定地点和特定时间的典型风格。
What I would say is fresh about Mondrian, if you ever get to go to The Hague and get to go to — it’s now called the Art Museum.
我想说的是关于蒙德里安的新鲜事，如果你去海牙并去“它现在被称为艺术博物馆”。
It used to be called the Municipal Museum until like last week.
直到上周，它才被称为市博物馆。
It was called the Gemeentemuseum.
它被称为市立博物馆。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Yes, Gemeentemuseum, that’s the Municipal Museum.
是的，Gemeentemuseum，那就是市博物馆。
Now it’s called Kunstmuseum, just the Art Museum, I heard.
我听说现在它叫Kunstmuseum，只是艺术博物馆。
I hope I’m getting that right.
我希望我做对了。
Anyway, it has a new name, but it’s an old modern museum, and it has all or a lot of the early Mondrians, which are absolutely beautiful.
不管怎样，它有一个新名字，但它是一个古老的现代博物馆，里面有全部或很多早期蒙德里安的作品，绝对是美丽的。
That is surprising because you would never think that he was going in this direction.
这很令人惊讶，因为你永远不会想到他会朝这个方向发展。
That’s one of my favorite museums in the world, and how you see the expressionism turn into cubism and then pure abstraction.
这是世界上我最喜欢的博物馆之一，你会看到表现主义变成立体主义，然后变成纯粹的抽象主义。
It’s phenomenal.
这是惊人的。
It’s fabulous.
太棒了。
It’s like an art history text book that you can actually see.
它就像一本你可以实际看到的艺术史教科书。
It’s like walking through something.
就像走过某些东西一样。
You understand where it comes from.
你明白它从何而来。
On why older Dutch writing is not widely read
关于为什么古老的荷兰文字没有被广泛阅读
Why is Dutch fiction so hard to read over time?
为什么荷兰小说随着时间的推移越来越难读？
Well, I could give you an hour on that, but I’ll try to give you a couple minutes.
好吧，我可以给你一个小时的时间，但我会尽量给你几分钟的时间。
There’s one thing that is really a characteristic.
有一点确实是一种特征。
We talked about the design and the art, the visuals.
我们讨论了设计、艺术、视觉效果。
First of all, the language is not only an unfamiliar language to most foreigners, but it’s also a language that has suffered quite a lot of modifications in terms of spelling and vocabulary.
首先，这种语言不仅对大多数外国人来说是一种陌生的语言，而且在拼写和词汇方面也经历了相当多的修改。
If we read Henry James or Edith Wharton, we can tell it’s not written in the last week, but the language is totally transparent.
如果我们读亨利·詹姆斯或伊迪丝·沃顿的书，我们可以看出它不是上周写的，但语言是完全透明的。
That’s not true in Dutch, and that’s one thing that, in fact, somebody told me — I hope this isn’t true, speaking of the decline and fall of everybody’s civilization — you can’t actually assign a book from before World War II to any Dutch high school class because they just won’t understand it.
在荷兰语中，情况并非如此，事实上，有人告诉我 ——“我希望这不是真的，谈到每个人文明的衰落和衰落”—— 你实际上不能把一本二战前的书布置给任何荷兰高中班级，因为他们根本听不懂。
Is there are any book you would want to assign?
您想布置什么书吗？
Right.
正确的。
The classic tradition of this country’s language is gone.
这个国家语言的经典传统已经消失了。
People not only don’t bother to read it, they’re convinced that they can’t read it.
人们不仅懒得去读它，而且还确信自己读不懂。
This is totally not true, by the way.
顺便说一句，这完全不是真的。
There are some spelling things, but if you’re a minimally literate person, you can read a book from 1935, but the kids won’t read it.
有一些拼写问题，但如果你是一个文化程度最低的人，你可以读一本 1935 年的书，但孩子们不会读。
My friends who are professors and high school teachers of Dutch really struggle with this.
我的朋友们是荷兰语教授和高中老师，他们确实为此苦苦挣扎。
Besides your partner, Arthur Japin, who else should people read in Dutch fiction?
除了你的搭档阿瑟·贾平（Arthur Japin）之外，人们还应该读荷兰小说中的谁？
Harry Mulisch or Rijneveld?
哈里·穆里施还是里杰内维尔德？
Forgive all my pronunciations.
请原谅我所有的发音。
I’m glad you mentioned Arthur.
我很高兴你提到亚瑟。
He’s a great writer, and we met, actually, because of his first novel, which is called The Two Hearts of Kwasi Boachi.
他是一位伟大的作家，实际上，我们是因为他的第一部小说《夸西·博阿奇的两颗心》而认识的。
It’s actually called The Black Man with the White Heart in Dutch, but that was considered too racially charged in America, even though it was a quote from a 19th-century letter.
它实际上在荷兰语中被称为《白心黑人》，但在美国，这被认为太过种族歧视，尽管它是引用自一封 19 世纪的信件。
It’s about two African princes who were given as a gift to the king of the Netherlands in 1837.
这是关于 1837 年两位非洲王子被作为礼物送给荷兰国王的故事。
I have actually never read Rijneveld, although a friend of mine has translated that.
事实上我从来没有读过《Rijneveld》，尽管我的一个朋友已经翻译了它。
Mulisch is a great writer.
穆里施是一位伟大的作家。
He was somebody that I really enjoyed reading when I first got to this country.
当我第一次来到这个国家时，我非常喜欢读他的书。
In the New York Review Classics, there’s a book — I think it’s called Amsterdam Stories.
《纽约评论经典》里有一本书 —— 我想它的名字叫《阿姆斯特丹故事》。
It’s by someone called Nescio, which is a pseudonym.
这是一个名叫 Nescio 的人写的，他是化名。
It’s 100 pages long, and it’s basically the only thing he ever wrote.
它有 100 页长，基本上是他写过的唯一的东西。
It’s just some stories about some kids hanging out in this bad neighborhood in about 1890, and that I thought was one of the best books I’ve ever read.
这只是 1890 年左右一些孩子在这个糟糕的社区闲逛的故事，我认为这是我读过的最好的书之一。
It’s just one of those miracle things that somebody wrote one book.
有人写了一本书只是奇迹之一。
Dutch literature is very rich, and it’s very old.
荷兰文学非常丰富，而且非常古老。
There’s a lot of it, and it goes back all the way into the Middle Ages, deep into the Middle Ages.
有很多，而且可以一直追溯到中世纪，深入到中世纪。
What’s your favorite Dutch movie?
您最喜欢的荷兰电影是什么？
Actually, something I think you can see on YouTube, which I mentioned in my book.
事实上，我想你可以在 YouTube 上看到这一点，我在书中提到过。
It’s called Dutch Light, Hollands Licht.
它被称为“荷兰之光”、“Hollands Licht”。
It’s a documentary I saw years ago about how filling in the water .
这是我几年前看过的一部关于如何注水的纪录片。
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。
.
。
This country is a delta.
这个国家是一个三角洲。
People think it was all dried, it was drained.
人们认为一切都干了，被排干了。
It wasn’t all necessarily drained, but the thing is, it sinks.
不一定全部都被耗尽，但事实是，它会下沉。
You have to keep filling it up so that it doesn’t sink into the water — which is not going to go well, by the way, in parenthesis, in a few years.
你必须不断地把它填满，这样它就不会沉入水中——顺便说一句，几年后，情况不会很好。
It’s going to be over with global warming.
随着全球变暖，这一切都会结束。
As this land gets filled up more and more, the water that was on the surface is very shallow water; it’s not deep water.
随着这片土地越来越被填满，地表的水就变得很浅了；这不是深水。
It’s shallow water, and it reflects light onto the clouds.
这是浅水，它将光线反射到云上。
It’s a cloudy country — northern, depressing, gray weather.
这是一个多云的国家——北方，阴郁、灰暗的天气。
But it has this amazing light that when you see the old landscape paintings, you really can see.
但它具有令人惊叹的光芒，当你看到古老的山水画时，你真的可以看到。
Before, when there was a lot more water, it reflected more light and it was more radiant.
以前，水多了，反射的光就多了，也就更加光彩照人了。
This movie — again, it’s called Dutch Light; I’m pretty sure it’s on YouTube.
这部电影 —— 再说一次，它叫《荷兰之光》；我很确定它在 YouTube 上。
It shows how that process went and how the country was darkened, and how this is reflected in the painting.
它展示了这个过程是如何进行的，国家是如何变暗的，以及这在绘画中是如何反映的。
I thought it was fantastic.
我觉得这太棒了。
It was a very wonk sort of subject, but it’s true.
这是一个非常古怪的话题，但这是事实。
The country — it has warmed up in my time here, but also, if you look at the light in the old paintings, you really notice the difference.
这个国家——在我在这里的时候，它已经变暖了，而且，如果你看看旧画中的光线，你真的会注意到其中的差异。
How much do you feel you’re living in what is still, ultimately, a Calvinist country?
你在多大程度上觉得自己生活在一个最终仍然是加尔文主义国家的国家？
Or not?
或不？
They always say it.
他们总是这么说。
Every time somebody is a little uptight or conservative or not as fun, they’ll say, “Oh, it’s because you’re such a Calvinist.” It has a heritage of Calvinism, but don’t forget that half the country is Catholic.
每当有人有点紧张、保守或者不那么有趣时，他们就会说，“哦，那是因为你是个加尔文主义者。”它有加尔文主义的传统，但不要忘记，这个国家的一半是天主教徒。
Fifty percent.
百分之五十。
It was always about 50/50.
一直都是 50/50 左右。
It’s not a purely Protestant country like Scandinavia or something.
它不是像斯堪的纳维亚半岛之类的纯粹的新教国家。
It was always a very mixed country racially, culturally.
它一直是一个种族和文化非常混杂的国家。
It’s always been right in the middle of the three biggest countries in Europe.
它一直位于欧洲三个最大国家的中间。
It’s managed to keep both open to the world, while also being its own thing.
它成功地保持了对世界的开放，同时也保持了自己的特色。
The Calvinist thing — I never even really know what that means.
加尔文主义的事 —— 我什至从来不知道那意味着什么。
Calvinism is a very dark, very terrifying view of God and the world and mankind, and I don’t necessarily feel this is a very dark country.
加尔文主义对于上帝、世界和人类来说是一种非常黑暗、非常可怕的观点，我并不一定觉得这是一个非常黑暗的国家。
On Dutch social tolerance
论荷兰社会宽容
I see some disparate facts about the Netherlands today, and maybe you can make sense of them for me in a kind of simple, unified theory.
我今天看到了一些关于荷兰的不同事实，也许你可以用一种简单、统一的理论来为我理解它们。
Drug use and sex work — they’re more legal in the Netherlands than in most other places.
吸毒和性工作在荷兰比在其他大多数地方更加合法。
It’s a long-standing history of toleration, which you could even say is unparalleled, and yet in the latest election, Geert Wilders takes the greatest share of the vote.
这是一个由来已久的宽容历史，甚至可以说是无与伦比的，但在最近的选举中，基尔特·维尔德斯获得了最大的选票。
People claim, as of February 2024, if there’s no coalition formed and another election were needed, he might take even more of the vote.
人们声称，截至 2024 年 2 月，如果没有组建联盟并且需要再次选举，他可能会获得更多选票。
How does this all fit together?
这一切是如何结合在一起的？
Explain it to me, an outsider.
给我这个外行解释一下。
That’s a great question that I need to unpack a little bit to try to maybe explain it.
这是一个很好的问题，我需要稍微解释一下才能解释它。
It’s true that Wilders won this election.
威尔德斯确实赢得了这次选举。
Winning an election in a Dutch system that has gazillions of parties — I don’t even know the names of the parties anymore because everybody secedes from the party, and then they start a new party, and then somebody dies, and then they get .
在拥有无数政党的荷兰体系中赢得选举 —— 我什至不再知道政党的名字，因为每个人都脱离政党，然后他们成立一个新政党，然后有人去世，然后他们就得到了。
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。
It’s really very complicated.
这确实非常复杂。
But the fact is that Wilders only got about, I think, 16 percent or 17 percent of the vote.
但事实上，我认为维尔德斯只获得了 16% 或 17% 的选票。
That means that 85 percent, roughly, of the Dutch did not vote for him.
这意味着大约 85% 的荷兰人没有投票给他。
It’s a big result, but it’s still a minority.
这是一个很大的结果，但仍然是少数。
The idea of Dutch social tolerance of things like drugs and prostitution and things like that — I think a lot of countries, including our country, have started to understand that .
荷兰社会对毒品和卖淫之类的事情容忍的想法 —— 我认为很多国家，包括我们国家，已经开始理解这一点。
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First of all, you’re in Washington, DC.
首先，您在华盛顿特区。
How hard is it to get a joint or a hooker in Washington?
在华盛顿找个酒吧或妓女有多难？
It’s not that hard, and it never has been that hard.
这并不难，而且从来没有那么难。
It’s just that they wanted to regulate that, and so it got this reputation as a very free-wheeling place.
只是他们想对此进行监管，因此它获得了“非常自由的地方”的声誉。
I think they really just wanted to tax it, but even so .
我认为他们真的只是想对其征税，但即便如此。
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As I’m sure you also know, the cocaine market in the United States is saturated, and so the cartels are pushing a lot of cocaine into Europe right now, particularly through the port of Rotterdam.
我相信您也知道，美国的可卡因市场已经饱和，因此卡特尔现在正在将大量可卡因推入欧洲，特别是通过鹿特丹港。
Even though we have these laws here that are quite tolerant of the stuff, there is a real terrifying thing happening now, where people are even saying that it’s becoming a narco state.
尽管我们这里的法律对这些东西相当宽容，但现在确实发生了一件可怕的事情，人们甚至说它正在成为一个毒品国家。
It’s true.
这是真的。
People are getting killed in a way that didn’t happen before.
人们正在以前所未有的方式被杀害。
I think every society tries to figure out how to regulate things and how to keep this side of things under control, and usually fails in different ways.
我认为每个社会都试图弄清楚如何规范事物以及如何控制事物的这一方面，但通常会以不同的方式失败。
The real glory of Holland that is part of the 17th-century story is that they were much more religiously and socially tolerant in the 17th century than any place in the world.
作为 17 世纪故事的一部分，荷兰真正的荣耀在于，他们在 17 世纪的宗教和社会宽容程度比世界上任何地方都高。
That doesn’t mean it was perfect.
这并不意味着它是完美的。
If you read the story of what happens to Spinoza and what happens to a lot of other people, it was not a completely free country by any means.
如果你读过斯宾诺莎以及其他许多人身上发生的故事，你会发现无论如何，它都不是一个完全自由的国家。
This was a country in the 17th century where if you denied the existence of the Holy Trinity, you could get beheaded, and that was better than anywhere else.
这是一个17世纪的国家，如果你否认三位一体的存在，你可能会被砍头，这比其他任何地方都好。
It’s a kind of country that .
这是一个这样的国家。
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I think they’re losing their minds in the same way that everybody else is, just a little bit of a delayed reaction politically.
我认为他们和其他人一样失去了理智，只是在政治上反应有点迟缓。
What makes the eastern Netherlands special?
荷兰东部有何特别之处？
Would you try to talk people into visiting there?
你会试着说服人们去那里参观吗？
Arnhem, Nijmegen?
阿纳姆、奈梅亨？
The eastern Netherlands?
荷兰东部？
Yes.
是的。
I don’t think I’d talk them into going there.
我想我不会说服他们去那里。
It’s nice.
很好。
It’s rural.
这是农村的。
I think the real fascinating part of the Netherlands is never really the countryside.
我认为荷兰真正迷人的部分从来都不是乡村。
You wouldn’t go to Italy and not want to see the hills of Tuscany.
你不会去意大利而不想去看看托斯卡纳的山丘。
You wouldn’t want to go to a lot of places and not see the rural landscape, but here it’s not so exciting.
你不会想去很多地方而不去看乡村风景，但这里就没那么令人兴奋了。
There are quite a lot of towns in the eastern Netherlands that are very pretty.
荷兰东部有很多非常漂亮的城镇。
I have to say, I’ve become a worse tourist, as I’ve been here so long.
我不得不说，我已经成为一个更糟糕的游客，因为我在这里呆了这么久。
I used to get on the train and go visit some nunnery that made special honey or something every weekend, and now I never do anything like that.
我以前每个周末都会坐火车去参观一些专门制作蜂蜜之类的尼姑庵，但现在我从不做这样的事情了。
If you’re trying to sell someone on living in Utrecht, how would you make the case?
如果您想向某人出售乌得勒支的居住权，您会如何论证？
It’s the perfect city, is what I would say.
我想说，这是一座完美的城市。
It’s the most ideal place I’ve ever lived.
这是我住过的最理想的地方。
I’ve lived here for a long time.
我在这里住了很长时间了。
It is like Brooklyn in the sense that it’s about the same distance.
从某种意义上说，它就像布鲁克林，距离大致相同。
If you go from midtown Manhattan to Brooklyn, you have the same distance .
如果您从曼哈顿市中心前往布鲁克林，距离是相同的。
It’s 40, 45 minutes door-to-door, but it’s much quieter and smaller, even though you also have everything because it’s a university town.
挨家挨户需要 40、45 分钟，但它更安静、更小，尽管你也拥有一切，因为它是一个大学城。
This country is small, physically small, but has a lot of people.
这个国家很小，面积很小，但是人口很多。
Even in towns like this, I don’t really think there’s anything here I don’t have.
即使在这样的城镇，我也不认为这里有我没有的东西。
There’s not much that I would think, “If only .
我不会想太多，“但愿。”
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I have to go to Amsterdam tonight, actually, for the Frans Hals opening at the Rijksmuseum.
事实上，今晚我必须去阿姆斯特丹，参加弗兰斯·哈尔斯在国家博物馆的开幕式。
I’d love for the Rijksmuseum to be here in town, but the fact is, we don’t have the tourists.
我希望国家博物馆能在城里，但事实是，我们没有游客。
Amsterdam has really been struggling with the tourist question, just like Barcelona and Lisbon and Venice and, increasingly, so many cities.
阿姆斯特丹确实一直在努力解决游客问题，就像巴塞罗那、里斯本和威尼斯以及越来越多的城市一样。
We don’t have that here.
我们这里没有。
It’s quite nice.
非常好。
Brazil — why are Brazilians harder to interview?
巴西 ——为什么巴西人更难采访？
Brazilians harder to interview?
巴西人更难采访？
They’re not for me.
它们不适合我。
I’ve been doing it.
我一直在这样做。
Well, you said this once: In general, Latins are harder to interview.
好吧，你曾经说过：一般来说，拉丁人更难采访。
Oh, well, I know what I mean by that.
哦，好吧，我知道我的意思。
Yes, Americans love to talk.
是的，美国人爱说话。
It’s a question that you really feel .
这是一个你真正感受到的问题。
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In countries that have had a long tradition of political freedom, where you can mouth off and not get into too much trouble, people are much more open to strangers.
在有着悠久政治自由传统的国家里，你可以闭嘴而不会惹上太多麻烦，人们对陌生人更加开放。
Edmund White once said that everybody in New York City should either be arrested or interviewed.
埃德蒙·怀特曾经说过，纽约市的每个人都应该被逮捕或接受采访。
Or both.
或者两者兼而有之。
MOSER: Or both.
莫泽：或者两者兼而有之。
Often, it’s both.
通常，两者兼而有之。
But in Latin America, where they have a tradition that’s not old — people remember it; it was very recent — of dictatorship, and of censorship, and of the cops knocking down your door to find forbidden books and all that, people don’t talk quite as easily about sensitive subjects.
但在拉丁美洲，他们有一个并不古老的传统——人们会记住它；人们会记住它。这是最近的事情——独裁、审查、警察敲门寻找禁书等等，人们不太容易谈论敏感话题。
They might be very warm and hospitable, and they often are, but when you interview them about anything sensitive, anything political, you have to gain their trust.
他们可能非常热情好客，而且他们经常如此，但是当你采访他们任何敏感的、任何政治的事情时，你必须获得他们的信任。
In Latin America, where they have a tradition that’s not old of dictatorship, and of censorship, and of the cops knocking down your door to find forbidden books and all that, people don’t talk quite as easily about sensitive subjects.
在拉丁美洲，那里的独裁、审查、警察敲门寻找禁书等传统并不古老，人们不太容易谈论敏感话题。
They might be very warm and hospitable, and they often are, but when you interview them about anything sensitive, anything political, you have to gain their trust.
他们可能非常热情好客，而且他们经常如此，但是当你采访他们任何敏感的、政治的事情时，你必须获得他们的信任。
When I started interviewing people in Latin America, which was a long time ago, 25 years ago, I would barge in a little bit too aggressively, I think, in retrospect.
当我开始采访拉丁美洲的人时，那是很久以前的事了，25 年前，我想，现在回想起来，我的介入有点过于激进了。
I wouldn’t respect the “Isn’t it a beautiful day?” “Oh, yes.” “This is my grandson.
我不会尊重“这不是美好的一天吗？” “哦是的。” “这是我的孙子。
He just went to third grade.” All that stuff that can often, in Latin America, take a long time.
他刚刚上三年级。”在拉丁美洲，所有这些事情通常需要很长时间。
Eventually, I figured that it was about seeing if you’re an okay person, if you can actually be trusted.
最终，我认为这是为了看看你是否是一个好人，是否真的值得信任。
Interviewing people, which is something I’ve done my whole career basically, is fascinating because you learn how different cultures are and how that gets expressed, and just what people will say and what they won’t say.
采访人们基本上是我整个职业生涯所做的事情，这很有趣，因为你可以了解不同的文化是如何以及如何表达的，以及人们会说什么和不会说什么。
On whether Brasilia works as a city
关于巴西利亚是否作为一个城市运作
Does Brasilia actually work as a city?
巴西利亚实际上是一个城市吗？
If you want to keep the great unwashed at a sanitary distance and live in a little colonial island where you don’t ever have to interact with the actual country, yes.
如果你想与伟大的人保持一定的卫生距离，并住在一个殖民小岛上，在那里你不需要与实际的国家互动，是的。
People like living there.
人们喜欢住在那里。
It’s a little diplomatic island.
这是一个外交小岛。
It’s surrounded by this “green belt” which is just a bunch of scrub.
它被这条“绿化带”包围着，绿化带只是一堆灌木丛。
It’s not like a beautiful park or anything.
它不像一个美丽的公园或任何东西。
Then at a very, very, very great distance, you have all the poor people, millions of them.
然后，在非常、非常、非常远的地方，你看到了所有的穷人，数以百万计的人。
It’s quite disconcerting if you know Brazil because one of the things about Brazil that makes it both scary in certain moments, but also really dynamic in other moments, is that despite the massive class differences — which are humongous, of course, and that has a racial component as well — you’re always quite .
如果你了解巴西，那会很令人不安，因为巴西的一个特点是，它在某些时刻既令人恐惧，又在其他时刻又充满活力，那就是尽管存在巨大的阶级差异 ——当然，这种差异是巨大的，而且也有种族因素——你总是很平静。
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If you’ve ever been to Rio, you know that right behind the fancy apartment buildings, you have the slums just right there.
如果你去过里约，你就会知道在豪华公寓楼的后面，贫民窟就在那里。
It’s segregated in a certain way, but it’s not really geographically segregated.
它以某种方式隔离，但在地理上并不是真正隔离的。
So, when you go to Brasilia, and it looks like some kind of architectural drawing but nobody’s on the streets, it’s very weird.
所以，当你去巴西利亚时，它看起来像是某种建筑图，但街上却没有人，这很奇怪。
I think it’s even weirder that people like it, but, apparently, people who grow up there —
我觉得更奇怪的是人们喜欢它，但是，显然，在那里长大的人 -
I like it.
我喜欢它。
I’ve been twice.
我去过两次。
MOSER: Have you really?
莫瑟：真的吗？
I think it’s beautiful.
我觉得很漂亮。
Robert Hughes said that the only reason anybody likes Brasilia is that they’ve never been there.
罗伯特·休斯说，人们喜欢巴西利亚的唯一原因是他们从未去过那里。
You are offering a counterexample.
你提供了一个反例。
It’s not an ambition I share, but it’s a monument to a certain kind of ambition that was seen through a consistent sense of how things should be, and it’s still that way, maybe even more so.
这不是我所共有的野心，但它是某种野心的纪念碑，这种野心是通过对事物应该如何发展的一致认识来看待的，而且仍然如此，甚至可能更是如此。
Why did you go there twice?
为什么你去了两次？
Why did you go there once?
为什么你去了一次？
I wanted to see the modernist architecture, which to me is quite interesting, and then I wanted to show some friends, so that makes twice.
我想看看现代主义建筑，这对我来说很有趣，然后我想给一些朋友看，所以这是两次。
I wouldn’t mind going again.
我不介意再去一次。
I don’t think I will, but .
我想我不会，但是。
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I found that, first time I went I was really excited because I knew all those buildings because I was a Brazil person.
我发现，我第一次去的时候我真的很兴奋，因为我知道所有这些建筑，因为我是巴西人。
I’d been in Brazil for a long time, and I’d never been there because it’s quite hard to get there.
我已经在巴西呆了很长时间了，但我从未去过那里，因为去那里非常困难。
You have to be going there.
你必须去那里。
You’re not going to ever be stopping by.
你永远不会停下来。
I was so bored after a few hours, actually, but you liked it.
事实上，几个小时后我很无聊，但你喜欢它。
I think it’s a wonderful place for two days, let’s put it that way.
我认为这是一个度过两天的好地方，这么说吧。
I wouldn’t live there.
我不会住在那里。
Okay.
好的。
Well, that’s true.
嗯，确实如此。
I had a week.
我有一个星期。
I think maybe that was the first time I went a little bit stir crazy there.
我想也许那是我第一次在那里变得有点疯狂。
That’s far too much.
这太过分了。
Speaking of Dutch novels, a lot of the great Dutch novels actually take place in Indonesia, which was the Dutch East Indies.
说到荷兰小说，许多伟大的荷兰小说实际上都发生在印度尼西亚，即荷属东印度群岛。
A lot of the thing is this colonial life.
很多事情都是殖民生活。
Everybody’s sitting around, waiting for tea at 2:00, and then somebody’s going to come over at 3:15.
2:00 大家都坐在一起等茶，3:15 就会有人过来。
Then they’re going to have another cup of tea, and then they’re going to go on a walk for 15 minutes.
然后他们会再喝一杯茶，然后散步 15 分钟。
They’re just really bored in these little hill station communities.
他们只是对这些小山站社区感到非常无聊。
Then there’s this threatening foreign country around them.
然后他们周围就是这个充满威胁的外国。
My experience in Brasilia was often, I felt that colonial boredom to it.
我在巴西利亚的经历常常让我感受到殖民时期的无聊。
I didn’t have a job.
我没有工作。
A lot of people who work there — they do have real jobs in the government or in the embassies.
很多在那里工作的人——他们确实在政府或大使馆里有真正的工作。
Isn’t it striking to you how much more colonized Brazil feels than Indonesia?
巴西比印度尼西亚更受殖民化，这让您感到惊讶吗？
Well, because Indonesia got rid of the Dutch, and the Dutch also never left their language there.
嗯，因为印度尼西亚摆脱了荷兰人，而荷兰人也从未在那里留下他们的语言。
But Indonesia is a colony of the Javanese.
但印度尼西亚是爪哇人的殖民地。
That’s something that I feel is not quite seen.
这是我觉得不太被看到的事情。
When you go to the other islands, you realize they really impose themselves on these quite different nations, really, so it’s a different kind of thing.
当你去其他岛屿时，你会意识到他们确实将自己强加于这些完全不同的国家，真的，所以这是一种不同的事情。
Now, as you probably know, at least in broad-brush terms, manufacturing used to be about a third of Brazilian GDP, and now it’s about a tenth.
现在，正如您可能知道的那样，至少从广义上讲，制造业曾经约占巴西国内生产总值的三分之一，现在约为十分之一。
That’s a big drop, so Brazil is de-industrializing.
这是一个很大的下降，因此巴西正在去工业化。
What is the political economy of a future de-industrialized Brazil?
未来去工业化的巴西的政治经济是什么样的？
I think you’re seeing it now.
我想你现在已经看到了。
I think that the idea of free trade — and I know you’re an economist, so you know more about this than I do — but the idea of free trade is, “Let’s just figure out where it’s cheaper to make this.
我认为自由贸易的理念 —— 我知道你是一名经济学家，所以你比我更了解这一点 —— 但自由贸易的理念是，“让我们弄清楚在哪里制造这个东西更便宜。
If we can make this in Guangzhou and ship it over to Sao Paulo for cheaper than it would cost to set up something in Sao Paulo, then let’s do it that way.”
如果我们能在广州制造并运往圣保罗，并且比在圣保罗设立工厂的成本更便宜，那么我们就这样做吧。”
Of course, it’s caused great, great instability.
当然，它造成了巨大的不稳定。
It’s caused a rise in extremism, as we’ve seen in so many countries.
正如我们在许多国家所看到的那样，这导致了极端主义的抬头。
It has a slightly different tinge there, but it’s basically the same problem, I think.
它的色调略有不同，但我认为基本上是相同的问题。
It’s fascinating that in the last 20 years, the main Latin American ideology since World War II, which was import substitution — gone, so you have the market just flooded with cheap shit from all over the place.
令人着迷的是，在过去的 20 年里，二战以来拉丁美洲的主要意识形态“进口替代”消失了，所以市场上充斥着来自各地的廉价垃圾。
That offers a seemingly attractive option to consumers, but ultimately, Brazil has not done very well in the last couple of generations.
这似乎为消费者提供了一个有吸引力的选择，但最终，巴西在过去几代人中表现不佳。
What do you think is the underrated Brazilian city to visit?
您认为哪个巴西城市被低估了？
Oh, Recife, I think.
哦，累西腓，我想。
Have you ever been there?
你去过那里吗？
No, but it seems like such a mess.
不，但看起来很混乱。
I’m even a little afraid to go.
我什至有点不敢去。
I’ve been to Salvador and that was possible, but I always had to have my guard up entirely.
我去过萨尔瓦多，这是可能的，但我总是必须完全保持警惕。
I’ve been to Rio and been shot at and have 11-year-olds chase me —
我去过里约，被枪杀，还有 11 岁的孩子追我 —
You got shot at?
你中枪了？
Yes, I was shot at — chased me with pointed sticks.
是的，我被枪击了——用尖棍追赶我。
I was not shooting, to be clear.
澄清一下，我没有开枪。
I love Brazil, it’s one of my favorite countries, but I always worry about where I should and should not go there.
我爱巴西，它是我最喜欢的国家之一，但我总是担心我应该去哪里，不应该去哪里。
But make the case for Recife.
但以累西腓为例。
You could be Brazilian.
你可能是巴西人。
Physically, you could be Brazilian easily.
从身体上来说，你很容易成为巴西人。
People come up to me, they speak Portuguese when I’m in Brazil.
当我在巴西时，人们来找我，他们说葡萄牙语。
Yes.
是的。
You could fit in perfectly.
你可以完美融入。
I talk Portuguese, so it’s different, but no, go to Recife and Olinda.
我说葡萄牙语，所以这是不同的，但不，去累西腓和奥林达。
It’s fantastic.
太棒了。
Listen, I’ve spent so much time in Brazil, I feel almost dishonest that I’ve never been mugged, but I really haven’t.
听着，我在巴西待了很长时间，我觉得自己几乎不诚实，因为我从未被抢劫过，但我真的没有。
I feel like I’m not a true Brazilophile until I’ve had a kidney removed by some drug lord, but I’ve always had a great time there.
我觉得我不是一个真正的巴西迷，直到我的肾脏被某个毒枭摘除，但我在那里总是过得很开心。
Is Recife the place you go to have that happen to you?
累西腓是你遇到这种事的地方吗？
To have a kidney removed by a drug lord?
被毒枭摘除肾脏？
Yes.
是的。
I’m telling you, I’m missing out.
我告诉你，我错过了。
I’m hanging out with the wrong people.
我和错误的人在一起。
I think I need to run with a rougher crowd.
我想我需要和更粗暴的人群一起跑步。
I like the south in Brazil.
我喜欢巴西的南部。
The south?
南方？
Even a city like Curitiba I think is very nice and has wonderful food.
即使像库里蒂巴这样的城市我也认为非常好并且有美味的食物。
There’s not really anything to do there, right?
那里真的没什么可做的，对吧？
I’ve only been there once.
我只去过那里一次。
It’s not my favorite.
这不是我最喜欢的。
I went to Porto Alegre again a couple years ago, where I hadn’t been in a long time.
几年前，我再次去了阿雷格里港，那是我很久没去的地方了。
It’s totally decent, I think, to live there.
我认为，住在那里是非常体面的。
It’s easier than it would be to live in the northeast, but I love the northeast.
生活比东北容易，但我喜欢东北。
If I have to choose, I’ll always go up to the northeast.
如果一定要选的话，我一定会去东北。
Why did modernism so persist in Brazil?
为什么现代主义在巴西如此盛行？
I have a whole long theory about that.
我对此有一个很长的理论。
I have actually written a book about it in Portuguese, but a short book.
我实际上已经用葡萄牙语写了一本关于它的书，但很短。
This is the Autoimperialismo book.
这是《自动帝国主义》一书。
That’s right.
这是正确的。
Which I wrote a few years ago, and I thought I was going to finish writing it and make it a real book in English, and I never did.
这是我几年前写的，我以为我会写完它并使其成为一本真正的英文书，但我从未这样做过。
Maybe I will sometime.
也许有一天我会的。
But Brazil desperately wanted to be modern.
但巴西迫切希望变得现代化。
It desperately wanted to join the modern world.
它迫切地想加入现代世界。
It desperately wanted to project itself into the world.
它迫切希望将自己投射到世界上。
There’s a great sense of inferiority among Brazilian intellectuals that goes back, really, to the 19th century.
巴西知识分子中存在着一种强烈的自卑感，这种感觉实际上可以追溯到 19 世纪。
They always write about this.
他们总是写这个。
Actually, all these books back here — this is all Brazilian literature behind me.
事实上，所有这些书都在这里 ——这就是我身后的所有巴西文学。
Brazilians found, I think, in art, and especially in architecture, a way to create a new identity for themselves.
我认为，巴西人在艺术，尤其是建筑中找到了一种为自己创造新身份的方式。
That’s my problem, I think, with Brasilia, the city, is that it creates a new look for something that doesn’t require changing any social structures.
我认为，这就是我对巴西利亚这座城市的问题，它创造了一种不需要改变任何社会结构的新面貌。
This was a great subject on the left — the Brazilian left — forever, that Brazil is actually an incredibly conservative country always.
这是左翼——“巴西左翼”——永远的一个伟大话题，巴西实际上一直是一个极其保守的国家。
The great frustration was that incremental change of the kind that we would associate with maybe Franklin Roosevelt was just impossible.
最大的挫败感在于，我们可能会联想到富兰克林·罗斯福的那种渐进式变革是不可能的。
I think a lot of that energy — this is just my bullshit theory; I don’t know if it’s true — but I think a lot of that energy gets subsumed into things that you can do.
我认为很多能量 ——这只是我的废话理论；我不知道这是否属实 — 但我认为很多精力都融入到了你能做的事情中。
You can design a building.
您可以设计一座建筑物。
You can do these things.
你可以做这些事情。
In Brasilia, you see that this modern design is actually the outward appearance of an incredibly authoritarian and very repressive state.
在巴西利亚，你会看到这种现代设计实际上是一个令人难以置信的独裁和高压国家的外观。
Those things could go together.
这些东西可以放在一起。
That was Niemeyer’s big discovery.
这是尼迈耶的重大发现。
On appreciating Clarice Lispector (or any other writer)
关于欣赏克拉丽斯·李斯佩克特（Clarice Lispector）（或任何其他作家）
If you were trying to sell a reader on Clarice Lispector who had never read any Lispector before — how would you make the case, and where should they start?
如果你想向一位以前从未读过任何《李斯佩克特》的读者推销《克拉丽斯·李斯佩克特》，你会如何论证，他们应该从哪里开始？
I’d, first of all, not make the case.
首先，我不会证明这一点。
I would say to read The Hour of the Star, which is her last book, which was the first book of hers that I ever read when I was in college.
我会说读《星星的时刻》，这是她的最后一本书，也是我在大学时读过的第一本书。
If you love it, then it’ll be one of the great things that ever happens to you in your life.
如果你喜欢它，那么这将是你一生中发生过的最伟大的事情之一。
If you don’t love it, then move on and read something else, because it’s so .
如果您不喜欢它，请继续阅读其他内容，因为事实就是如此。
.
。
.
。
I once read this story about this Canadian sex toy, just to diverge for a moment here.
我曾经读过这个关于加拿大性玩具的故事，只是为了暂时发散一下。
It was this toy for women that was so big that it had to be brought over in a van and set up.
这款女性玩具太大了，必须用货车运过来并安装。
Don’t ask me where I saw this; this was a long time ago.
不要问我在哪里看到的；这是很久以前的事了。
I wish I could find this article, but apparently it was so complex, this thing, that it would either give these women these incredible orgasms that would last for weeks — would be the greatest experience of their life — or if it was just like the radio signal a little bit off, you’d feel absolutely nothing.
我希望我能找到这篇文章，但显然这件事太复杂了，它要么会给这些女性带来持续数周的令人难以置信的高潮————这将是她们一生中最伟大的经历————要么就像无线电信号有点关闭，你绝对不会有任何感觉。
I always think about this Canadian sex toy because there’s some sorts of art that, just really, it can be the same art, it can be the same frequency that will blow someone’s mind; somebody else just won’t feel it.
我一直在思考这款加拿大性玩具，因为有某种艺术，真的，它可以是同样的艺术，它可以是同样的频率，让某人大吃一惊；其他人只是感觉不到。
I’ve known a lot of Brazilians who actually are quite troubled by their failure to appreciate Clarice Lispector because they feel she’s this great national and international icon.
我认识很多巴西人，他们实际上因未能欣赏克拉丽斯·李斯佩克特而感到非常困扰，因为他们觉得她是一位伟大的国家和国际偶像。
She’s this incredible figure.
她是一个令人难以置信的人物。
You feel stupid.
你感觉自己很愚蠢。
It’s like not getting Shakespeare or something, but I do think it’s so specific, and it’s a specific kind of person.
这就像没有得到莎士比亚什么的，但我确实认为它是如此具体，而且是一种特殊的人。
I think if you read The Hour of the Star — it’ll take you an hour; it’s 80 pages long — if you feel the frequency, then it’ll be one of the greatest things that you’ve ever read.
我想如果你读《星辰时刻》——你会花一个小时；它有 80 页长 — 如果你感受到频率，那么它将是你读过的最伟大的东西之一。
If you don’t, then it’s okay.
如果你不这样做，那就没关系。
Everybody’s different.
每个人都不同。
On Susan Sontag’s influence
论苏珊·桑塔格的影响
You once wrote about Susan Sontag, and I quote, “So much of Sontag’s best work concerns the ways we try, and fail, to see.” Please explain.
你曾经写过关于苏珊·桑塔格的文章，我引用一下，“桑塔格最好的作品中有很多都是关于我们尝试但失败的观察方式。”请解释一下。
This is what On Photography is about.
这就是《论摄影》的意义所在。
This is what Against Interpretation is about in Sontag’s work.
这就是桑塔格作品中《反对解释》的主题。
Of course, in my new book, The Upside-Down World, I talk about how I’m not really great at seeing, particularly.
当然，在我的新书《颠倒的世界》中，我特别谈到了我并不擅长观察。
I’m not that visual.
我没那么视觉化。
I’m a reader.
我是一名读者。
I’m a bookworm.
我是一个书虫。
Often, when I’ve looked at paintings, I’ve realized how little I actually see.
通常，当我观看绘画时，我会意识到我实际上看到的东西是多么少。
Sometimes I do feel embarrassed by it.
有时我确实为此感到尴尬。
You’ll read the label and it’ll be three sentences, and it’ll say like, A Man with a Dog.
你会读到标签，它会是三句话，上面会写着“一个带着狗的男人”。
You’re like, “Oh, I didn’t even see the dog.” You know what I mean?
你会说，“哦，我什至没有看到那只狗。”你知道我的意思？
On these very basic levels, I just think, “Oh, if someone doesn’t point it out to me, I really don’t see.” I think that that was one of the fascinating things about Sontag, that she was not really able to see.
在这些非常基本的层面上，我只是想，“哦，如果有人不向我指出，我真的看不到。”我认为这是桑塔格最迷人的事情之一，但她并没有真正看到。
She was actually quite terrible at seeing, and this was especially true in her relationships.
事实上，她的视力很糟糕，在她的人际关系中尤其如此。
She was very bad at seeing what other people were thinking and feeling.
她非常不善于了解别人的想法和感受。
I think because she was aware of that, she tried very hard to remedy it, but it’s just not something you can force.
我想因为她意识到了这一点，所以她非常努力地去补救，但这不是你可以强迫的。
You can’t force yourself to like certain music or to like certain tastes that you might not actually like.
你不能强迫自己喜欢某些音乐或喜欢某些你可能并不真正喜欢的品味。
What was Sontag most right about or most insightful about?
桑塔格最正确或最有洞察力的观点是什么？
I think this question of images — what images do — and photography and how representations, metaphors can pervert things.
我认为图像的问题——“图像的作用”——以及摄影以及表征、隐喻如何扭曲事物。
She had a very deep repulsion to photography.
她对摄影有很深的排斥。
She really hated photography, and this is why a lot of photographers hated her because they felt this, even though she didn’t really say it.
她真的很讨厌摄影，这就是为什么很多摄影师讨厌她，因为他们感觉到了这一点，尽管她没有真正说出来。
She really didn’t trust it.
她实在不相信。
She really thought it was wicked.
她确实觉得这样很邪恶。
At the same time, for somebody who had a deficit, I guess you could say, in seeing, she really relied on it to understand the world.
同时，对于一个有缺陷的人来说，我想你可以说，在看到时，她确实依靠它来了解世界。
I think that tension is very instructive for us, because now, she already says 50 years ago, “There are all these images.
我认为这种张力对我们很有启发，因为现在，她在 50 年前就已经说过，“有所有这些图像。
We don’t know what to do with them.
我们不知道该怎么处理它们。
We don’t know how to process them.” Forget AI, forget Russian trolls on Twitter.
我们不知道如何处理它们。”忘记人工智能，忘记 Twitter 上的俄罗斯巨魔。
She uses this word I really like, hygiene, a lot.
她经常使用我非常喜欢的这个词：卫生。
She talks about mental hygiene and how you can clean the rusty pipes in your brain.
她谈论了心理卫生以及如何清理大脑中生锈的管道。
That’s why I think reading her helped me at least to understand a lot of what I’m seeing in the world.
这就是为什么我认为阅读她至少帮助我理解了我在世界上看到的很多事情。
Do you think she will simply end up forgotten?
你认为她最终会被遗忘吗？
In my view, Against Interpretation is one of the great books.
在我看来，《反对解释》是一本伟大的书。
Many of the essays in there are amazing, but I don’t see it resonating with most people anymore.
那里的许多文章都很棒，但我认为它不再能引起大多数人的共鸣。
Will it just disappear?
它会消失吗？
As you mentioned in your book, she spent what, seven years collecting Antonin Artaud into some kind of volume, and he did theater, and he’s forgotten.
正如你在书中提到的，她花了七年的时间将安东尼·阿尔托收集成某种书，而他则从事戏剧，但他被遗忘了。
She must have thought he was quite important.
她一定认为他很重要。
Will she just meet the same fate?
她也会遭遇同样的命运吗？
Well, I think, doesn’t everyone?
嗯，我想，不是每个人都这样吗？
It’s very New York stuff.
这是非常纽约的东西。
New York is not really the cultural center of the world or even the United States anymore.
纽约不再是真正的世界文化中心，甚至不再是美国的文化中心。
Well, I can tell you a lot about that.
嗯，我可以告诉你很多关于这一点的事情。
I have many thoughts about that.
对此我有很多想法。
I’ll try to give you a couple.
我会尽力给你几个。
The first one is that I’m from Texas, so I knew exactly that.
第一个是我来自德克萨斯州，所以我很清楚这一点。
I’m a New Yorker in the way that most New Yorkers are the valedictorian from Boise.
我是一名纽约人，就像大多数纽约人是来自博伊西的告别演说者一样。
I knew that people in Houston have heard of her, but they don’t read her, and I know that everybody in New York is obsessed with her, and they thought .
我知道休斯顿的人们听说过她，但他们没有读过她的书，我知道纽约的每个人都对她着迷，他们认为。
.
。
.
。
I can tell you, the sales of my Sontag book — it was reviewed everywhere, it won this prize, all that kind of stuff, but it didn’t sell that much because it sold to a few groups of people who care very passionately about her.
我可以告诉你，我的桑塔格书的销量——它到处都有评论，它赢得了这个奖项，诸如此类的东西，但它的销量并不高，因为它卖给了几组非常热情地关心她的人。
That’s not to say it shouldn’t.
这并不是说不应该。
I think that her legacy is very uncomfortable.
我认为她的遗产非常不舒服。
It’s very spiny.
它非常多刺。
It’s cactus-y.
这是仙人掌。
It’s like chewing the cactus without removing the exterior.
这就像咀嚼仙人掌而不去除外部。
It demands a lot of the reader.
它对读者的要求很高。
I was saying about Dutch literature that you can’t read anything before World War II, and I don’t think it’s much different.
我说的是荷兰文学，二战之前你不能读任何东西，我认为这没什么不同。
Do you still teach?
你还教书吗？
Sure, of course.
当然，当然。
Does this sound unfamiliar to you?
这对你来说听起来很陌生吗？
All my professor friends say that the kids have read a whole lot less than they had 15 or 20 years ago.
我所有的教授朋友都说，现在孩子们的阅读量比 15 或 20 年前少了很多。
I think that’s true, but what I do find is there are certain superstar figures — Shakespeare, Jane Austen, Tolkien — who are probably read more.
我认为这是事实，但我确实发现某些超级巨星人物 ——莎士比亚、简·奥斯汀、托尔金——可能读得更多。
Overall, reading is probably down.
总体而言，阅读量可能会下降。
Diversity of reading past the superstars is definitely down.
阅读超级巨星的多样性肯定会下降。
That’s my impression.
这是我的印象。
Well, I think that you see this with a lot of things all over the place.
嗯，我想你在很多地方都看到了这一点。
The big brand does really well.
大品牌确实做得很好。
CVS is doing really well, but maybe all the shops that used to make up the rest of the city have been decimated.
CVS 做得非常好，但也许城市其他地方曾经的所有商店都被摧毁了。
They’re not there anymore.
他们已经不在那儿了。
They’re all replaced by chains so you have a few chain brands.
它们都被连锁店取代了，所以你有几个连锁品牌。
I think that’s true in clothing, it’s true in media, it’s true in literature.
我认为这在服装、媒体、文学中都是如此。
But that’s not to say .
但这并不是说。
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。
.
。
I don’t love reading Susan Sontag.
我不喜欢读苏珊桑塔格的书。
It’s not what I want to read if I have an hour to kill and I’m sitting on my couch.
如果我坐在沙发上有一个小时可以消磨，这不是我想读的书。
She’s not the writer that I would want to pick up.
她不是我想要选择的作家。
That said, I’ve learned more from Susan Sontag than just about anybody else I’ve ever read.
也就是说，我从苏珊·桑塔格那里学到的东西比我读过的任何人都多。
I think if you’re the kind of bootcamp reader that I always was — I always really liked difficult books.
我想，如果你是我一直以来的那种训练营读者 —— 我总是非常喜欢困难的书。
I liked studying things that were hard because I felt that there was something in there that I could maybe learn from them.
我喜欢研究困难的东西，因为我觉得其中有一些我可以从中学到的东西。
There’s a masochism to it, but at the same time, I would hate to think of my life without Sontag.
这其中有一种受虐倾向，但与此同时，我不愿想象没有桑塔格的生活。
I think I would be stupider.
我想我会更傻。
I think I would be less able to cope with the reality of the world.
我想我将无法应对世界的现实。
I have huge gratitude for having read all that stuff.
我非常感谢阅读了所有这些内容。
When you read it all together, it’s not all so great.
当你把这一切放在一起读时，你会发现一切并不是那么好。
She’s quite prolific, actually.
事实上，她非常多产。
She writes a lot.
她写了很多。
People read a couple of books or a couple of essays, but there’s a whole lot of Sontag to read.
人们读几本书或几篇文章，但桑塔格有很多东西可供阅读。
I think if you look in the Library of America, they have a lot of it in those two volumes now.
我想如果你去美国图书馆看看，你会发现这两卷里现在有很多这样的书。
It’s just majestic altogether.
这真是太雄伟了。
It’s beautiful.
很美丽。
Why didn’t Camille Paglia become the next Susan Sontag?
为什么卡米尔·帕格利亚没有成为下一个苏珊·桑塔格？
That’s a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
She denies that she wanted to be.
她否认自己想成为这样的人。
When I spoke to her…
当我和她说话时……
She clearly did.
她显然做到了。
Yes, she clearly did.
是的，她显然做到了。
I think she had an identity, though.
但我认为她有一个身份。
Camille is a complex subject of her own, but she has an idea of herself that she needed to stay in the academy because she felt that teaching and interacting with actual humans was a way of preventing the aristocratic excesses of people like Susan Sontag, which I think is absolutely fair enough.
卡米尔本身就是一个复杂的主题，但她对自己有一个想法，她需要留在学院，因为她觉得教学和与真实的人类互动是防止像苏珊·桑塔格这样的人的贵族式过度行为的一种方式，我认为这绝对是足够公平的。
I can’t imagine Sontag as a professor.
我无法想象桑塔格成为一名教授。
That’s just not who she was.
她不是这样的人。
But I think that Camille — the reason she’s a fascinating person, I think, is that she both satirizes a lot of the aspects of the celebrity culture that Sontag was a part of — and a very successful part of — while also having quite a lot of excesses of her own.
但我认为卡米尔——我认为她之所以如此迷人，是因为她讽刺了桑塔格所属的名人文化的许多方面——而且是其中非常成功的一部分——同时她自己也有很多过分的行为。
I don’t know if you saw when Sinéad O’Connor died a few months ago, a few weeks ago.
我不知道你是否看到西妮德·奥康纳几个月前、几周前去世的时候。
There was this clip going around the internet of Camille saying, “If I were Sinéad O’Connor, I would hate myself too, and I would want to kill myself.” This was before the internet.
网络上流传着卡米尔的这段视频，她说：“如果我是西妮德·奥康纳，我也会恨自己，我会想自杀。”这是在互联网出现之前。
Now, if you say something like that, you’re putting yourself out there as a kind of “I’m an obnoxious person on the internet.” But this was 30 or 40 years ago.
现在，如果你说这样的话，你就是在把自己定位为“我是互联网上一个令人讨厌的人”。但这是30或40年前的事了。
In fact, Sinéad does kill herself and does have this very miserable life and was abused, and all this.
事实上，西妮德确实自杀了，也确实过着非常悲惨的生活，并受到虐待，等等。
I think Camille is .
我认为卡米尔是。
.
。
.
。
I’m not going to write a book about her, but I think that there is a book to write about her because she both criticizes and also embodies a lot of these questions.
我不会写一本关于她的书，但我认为有一本关于她的书可以写，因为她既批评又体现了很多这样的问题。
I once did a podcast with her, and I think of all the guests we’ve ever had, she produced the greatest number of words and greatest number of words per minute.
我曾经和她一起做过一个播客，我想到我们遇到过的所有客人，她产生的单词数和每分钟单词数最多。
Oh my God, I remember I had to type down the first time I talked to her.
天哪，我记得第一次和她说话时我必须打字。
The first thing she said to me, which I thought was hilarious — I said, “Is this on the record?” She said, “Everything I say is on the record!” Which I thought was hilarious because so many people would whisper in the corridors and try to make themselves interesting.
她对我说的第一句话，我觉得很搞笑——我说，“这件事记录在案吗？”她说：“我所说的一切都记录在案！”我觉得这很搞笑，因为很多人会在走廊里窃窃私语，试图让自己变得有趣。
She owns it, and yes, she talks really fast.
她拥有它，是的，她说得很快。
On V.S.
关于 V.S.
Naipaul’s mentorship
奈保尔的指导
Now to our final segment on the Benjamin Moser production function.
现在到我们关于本杰明·莫泽生产函数的最后一部分。
What did you learn from V.S.
你从 V.S. 学到了什么？
Naipaul?
奈保尔？
Oh, you’ve been looking at my Instagram.
哦，你一直在看我的 Instagram。
I don’t know where I saw that, but you mentioned it somewhere.
我不知道我在哪里看到的，但你在某处提到过。
Oh, I mentioned him in the book as well.
哦，我在书中也提到过他。
V.S.
V.S.
Naipaul — he’s probably the most symbolic figure in my head.
奈保尔——他可能是我脑海中最具象征意义的人物。
He’s the person that occupies the most space of all the people I’ve known.
他是我认识的人中占据空间最多的人。
He is an almost oedipal figure for me, a father figure, someone that I knew very well when I was younger.
对我来说，他几乎是一个恋母情结的人物，一个父亲的人物，一个我年轻时就非常了解的人。
I venerated him, and I think I became a writer because of him.
我很崇拜他，我想我是因为他才成为一名作家的。
I also stopped reading him because I wanted to be a writer, because his influence was so overwhelming on me.
我也不再读他的书了，因为我想成为一名作家，因为他对我的影响是如此巨大。
The sense of never being able to measure up to him was so depressing that I had to find my own way in the world to use the title of one of his novels.
永远无法达到他的标准的感觉是如此令人沮丧，以至于我不得不在世界上找到自己的方式来使用他的一本小说的标题。
Having that as an example, that integrity and that self-immolating, self-sacrificing belief in the importance of literature and writing — I had to go away from it.
以此为例，那种对文学和写作重要性的正直和自我牺牲、自我牺牲的信念——我必须放弃它。
I started reading him again about four or five years ago.
大约四五年前，我又开始读他的书。
Actually, when I won the Pulitzer Prize — that’s when I thought, “Now I can read him again.” Rather than diminishing him in a sense — sometimes, like the writers that make a huge impression on you in adolescence or as a young person — you come back to them 20 years later, and it’s just not as much.
事实上，当我获得普利策奖时，我就想：“现在我可以再次阅读他的作品了。”与其在某种意义上贬低他——有时候，就像那些在青春期或年轻时给你留下深刻印象的作家一样——20年后你再回到他们身边，情况就没有那么严重了。
It’s just not as important.
只是没那么重要。
He was in fact, even better than I remembered.
事实上，他比我记忆中的还要好。
Again, I had to stop reading him because the impression that he makes on an impressionable young person is too overwhelming.
我再次不得不停止阅读他的作品，因为他给一个易受影响的年轻人留下的印象太强烈了。
When I read A Turn in the South, I greatly enjoyed it, but over time, I somehow grew not to like the book, especially after I spent more time in the South.
当我读《南方的转弯》时，我非常喜欢它，但随着时间的推移，我不知何故变得不喜欢这本书，尤其是在我在南方呆了更多时间之后。
What’s the correct stance on that one?
对此，正确的立场是什么？
He strikes me in part — he was just a grump, but in a way that infected his writing.
他给我的印象有一部分是——他只是脾气暴躁，但这种脾气影响了他的写作。
He disliked groups.
他不喜欢团体。
Same about A Million Mutinies — quite an interesting book, but ultimately not willing to understand what makes India work.
《百万叛变》也是如此——一本相当有趣的书，但最终不愿意了解印度的运作原理。
Well, I don’t think he thought India worked.
嗯，我认为他认为印度行不通。
It’s done relatively well since he wrote A Million Mutinies, I think, better than almost anyone had predicted, in some ways at least.
我认为，自从他写了《百万叛变》以来，它的表现相对较好，至少在某些方面比几乎任何人的预测都要好。
Well, A Million Mutinies is a book about positive change.
嗯，《百万叛变》是一本关于积极改变的书。
That’s a book about how the mutinies for the people who, instead of being imprisoned in their caste function, have liberated themselves.
这本书讲述了人们如何通过叛变摆脱了种姓功能的囚禁，从而解放了自己。
The son of the railway conductor becomes a dentist.
铁路售票员的儿子成为一名牙医。
It’s that story of mobility.
这就是移动性的故事。
But India is, of course, an increasingly repressive and increasingly dictatorial country, which Vidia did not see coming quite as much, and to a certain extent support it.
但印度当然是一个越来越专制、越来越独裁的国家，维迪亚并没有预见到这种情况的发生，并在一定程度上支持它。
When did you last read him?
你最后一次读他的书是什么时候？
Not recently.
不是最近。
Not in the last two years.
近两年没有。
Go back to even those early novels he wrote in his early 20s.
甚至可以追溯到他 20 岁出头写的那些早期小说。
They’re so incredibly good, like Miguel Street.
他们非常好，就像米格尔街一样。
A Way in the World is one of the great books.
《世界之路》是一本伟大的书。
In a Free State is fantastic.
在自由州真是太棒了。
As for Mr. Biswas —
至于毕斯瓦斯先生 ——
Fabulous.
太棒了。
And there are so many of them.
而且有很多。
He writes these books.
他写了这些书。
I’m sitting here trying very hard to write.
我坐在这里非常努力地写作。
If I can write a page a day, I feel like I can take the rest of the week off.
如果我每天能写一页，我觉得这周剩下的时间我都可以休息。
He wrote books of a quality and of a penetration that I find .
我发现他写的书质量很高，而且很有洞察力。
.
。
.
。
I wonder if he’s read much anymore.
我想知道他是否还读过很多书。
He’s been canceled every which way for all sorts of reasons.
由于各种原因，他已经被取消了。
I don’t think he’s read much anymore.
我认为他读书不多了。
Do people read him?
人们读他的书吗？
Not that I hear about.
不是我听说的。
You don’t?
你不知道吗？
Maybe some people my age, but I never hear about him from younger people.
也许有些人是我这个年纪的人，但我从来没有从年轻人那里听说过他。
Well, we’ll see.
好吧，我们拭目以待。
I think it’s a body of work that’s produced in one lifetime, that — particularly, probably, in India and the Caribbean — will perdure.
我认为这是一生中创作的一系列作品，“尤其是在印度和加勒比海地区”，将永垂不朽。
I just read The Masque of Africa about a year ago, which had made no impression on me at the time it came out.
大约一年前，我刚刚读了《非洲假面》，当时它出版时并没有给我留下任何印象。
I thought he was old, and he was grumping around Gabon or whatever.
我以为他老了，而且他对加蓬之类的地方脾气暴躁。
He was obsessed with this idea of animal sacrifice and human sacrifice.
他痴迷于动物祭祀和人类祭祀的想法。
One of my main commitments, socially and ethically, is for vegetarianism.
我对社会和道德的主要承诺之一是素食主义。
I knew that he was always thought of as a vegetarian, but he wasn’t actually a vegetarian.
我知道他一直被认为是素食主义者，但他实际上并不是素食主义者。
This is kind of funny.
这有点好笑。
I don’t know why — I think it was the British thought, oh wow, he’s Indian.
我不知道为什么 —— 我认为这是英国人的想法，哦哇，他是印度人。
But there was sometimes meat in his house, which I always found quite shocking actually.
但他家有时也会有肉，我总觉得这很令人震惊。
He had a Hindu sense of the uncleanness of meat — not just the sinfulness of killing, but that meat was dirty.
他对肉的不洁有一种印度教的感觉——不仅是杀戮的罪恶，而且肉也是肮脏的。
He goes to Africa, and he goes all over the place.
他去了非洲，他走遍了所有地方。
He is only really talking about this idea that power can be taken from the organ of a slaughtered animal or human.
他实际上只是在谈论这个想法，即可以从被屠宰的动物或人类的器官中获取能量。
This is something that I know exists in Africa.
据我所知，非洲存在这种情况。
But in this book, he ties these ideas of sacrifice, of power, but also with this extremely shocking view of environmental destruction and what it means to kill animals and to destroy the forest.
但在这本书中，他将这些牺牲、权力的观念，以及对环境破坏的极其令人震惊的观点以及杀死动物和破坏森林的意义联系在一起。
I put that book down with a chill.
我打了个冷颤放下那本书。
I’d missed it the first time I read it.
我第一次读的时候就错过了。
I thought, “Eh, it’s boring.”
我想：“呃，这很无聊。”
What do you think of the biography, Sir Vidia?
维迪亚爵士，您对这本传记有何看法？
I’m sure you know it.
我相信你知道。
Patrick French’s biography?
帕特里克·弗伦奇的传记？
Oh no, you mean Paul Theroux?
哦不，你是说保罗·塞洛克斯？
Theroux, yes.
塞鲁克斯，是的。
Sir Vidia’s Shadow.
维迪亚爵士的影子。
Yes, it’s different titles, I think, in the US and UK.
是的，我认为在美国和英国有不同的头衔。
Well, no, there’s a Patrick French biography called The World Is What It Is.
嗯，不，帕特里克·弗伦奇有一本传记，名叫《世界就是这样》。
Patrick French who just died.
帕特里克·弗伦奇刚刚去世。
Then there’s Paul Theroux’s book, Sir Vidia’s Shadow.
然后是保罗·塞洛克斯的书《维迪亚爵士的影子》。
That’s right.
这是正确的。
That book is 100 percent accurate if you knew him, 100 percent accurate — and yet, totally wrong.
如果你认识他，那本书就是 100% 准确的，100% 准确的——然而，完全错误。
He was one of these people that if you want to put him through the kind of cancel culture filter and say this was an obnoxious thing to say about women, this was an obnoxious thing to say about Black people, this was an obnoxious thing to say about gay people — it’s all there.
他是这样的人之一，如果你想让他通过那种取消文化过滤器，并说这是关于女性的令人讨厌的事情，关于黑人的这是令人讨厌的事情，关于同性恋者的这是令人讨厌的事情 - 一切都在那里。
It’s all fair.
这都是公平的。
He was a provocateur.
他是一个挑衅者。
He loved getting a rise out of people.
他喜欢提高人们的地位。
He was funny.
他很有趣。
He was kind of bitchy.
他有点恶毒。
He was fun to talk to.
和他聊天很有趣。
I’ll never forget.
我永远不会忘记。
I’m from America, so I don’t understand cricket.
我来自美国，所以我不懂板球。
We were in England.
我们当时在英国。
I was at his house, and he was watching cricket.
我在他家，他正在看板球比赛。
He said, “Benji, I must watch the cricket.” I said, “Okay, but forgive my American ignorance, but I still don’t get cricket.” He sat there, and he was so patient.
他说：“本吉，我必须看板球。”我说：“好吧，请原谅我美国人的无知，但我还是不会打板球。”他坐在那里，非常有耐心。
He spent two or three hours — because those cricket matches last forever — explaining everything.
他花了两三个小时 ——“因为那些板球比赛永远持续下去”—— 解释了一切。
I retained zero of it.
我保留了零。
When I see cricket, I still have no idea what’s happening.
当我看到板球时，我仍然不知道发生了什么。
But he was very kind to me.
但他对我很好。
He was very encouraging to me when I was young.
当我年轻的时候，他给了我很大的鼓励。
God knows why.
天知道为什么。
He was a wonderful man.
他是一个很棒的人。
On Houston’s intellectual culture
论休斯顿的知识文化
Why does Houston produce so few intellectuals?
为什么休斯顿的知识分子这么少？
Or perhaps you’ll challenge the premise of that question.
或者也许你会质疑这个问题的前提。
Well, I’m from Houston, and I’m something of an intellectual, but I won’t challenge the premise of the question.
好吧，我来自休斯顿，我是一个知识分子，但我不会挑战这个问题的前提。
I think that when I was growing up — and Houston’s changed a lot since I was growing up, Houston is so much bigger than it was.
我认为在我成长的过程中，休斯顿发生了很大的变化，休斯顿比以前大得多。
It’s so much more diverse.
它更加多样化。
It’s a huge, huge and fascinating city of which I know absolutely nothing anymore.
这是一座巨大而迷人的城市，但我对它一无所知。
I think it’s Calvin Coolidge who said, “The business of America is business.” The business of Houston is business.
我认为卡尔文·柯立芝曾说过：“美国的生意就是生意。”休斯顿的生意就是生意。
It’s a business place.
这是一个商业场所。
It’s a place where you go to ship 500,000 tons of crude from Equatorial Guinea to be delivered in Shanghai on Tuesday at 11:15 am.
周二上午 11 点 15 分，从赤道几内亚运来的 50 万吨原油将在上海交付。
Everybody I knew growing up, my parents’ friends and my teachers and all those people that were adults — I always thought that if you’re good at math, you became a doctor.
我成长过程中认识的每个人，我父母的朋友、我的老师以及所有那些成年人 —— 我一直认为，如果你擅长数学，你就会成为一名医生。
If you’re good at English, you became a lawyer.
如果你英语很好，你就会成为一名律师。
That sounds almost like an exaggeration, but I didn’t really know about all these other professions that people could have.
这听起来几乎有点夸张，但我并不真正了解人们可以拥有的所有其他职业。
The idea of culture was an imported phenomenon.
文化观念是一种外来现象。
It’s not now; it’s quite different now.
不是现在；现在完全不同了。
My parents were pretty well-connected people in the art world, literary world.
我的父母在艺术界、文学界都是人脉广泛的人。
My mother had a bookstore.
我妈妈有一家书店。
She actually had two bookstores, one for children and one for adults.
她实际上有两家书店，一家是儿童书店，一家是成人书店。
My father was a lawyer.
我的父亲是一名律师。
I had a pretty good introduction to the interesting people around.
我很好地认识了周围有趣的人。
But if I hadn’t gone away .
但如果我没有离开的话。
.
。
.
。
My mother said she wouldn’t pay for me to go to college if I stayed in Texas.
我母亲说，如果我留在德克萨斯州，她就不会支付我上大学的费用。
Her parents sent her to college in Texas, and I think she would’ve loved to have gone somewhere else, but that was back in those different times.
她的父母送她去德克萨斯州上大学，我想她很想去其他地方，但那是在不同的时代。
It was different times.
这是不同的时代。
I’m fascinated by this question.
我对这个问题很着迷。
I think it’s a really good question.
我认为这是一个非常好的问题。
I think that places get a character impressed on them very early, and it doesn’t really change.
我认为这些地方很早就给他们留下了深刻的印象，而且它并没有真正改变。
I think they just attract a certain kind of people.
我认为他们只是吸引特定类型的人。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I think I would be pretty lonely in Houston, intellectually, in a way that I’m not here.
我想我在休斯顿会很孤独，从某种程度上来说，我不在这里。
Even though this city — I’m talking about Utrecht here — I wouldn’t say I have this incredibly intellectual existence here at all.
尽管这座城市 —— 我在这里谈论的是乌得勒支 —— 我根本不会说我在这里有这种令人难以置信的智力存在。
I write books, but that’s me in my house.
我写书，但那是我在家里。
It’s not like some idea of Paris with Sartre at the next table or something.
这不像巴黎的某个想法，萨特坐在邻桌之类的。
It’s not like that at all.
根本不是那样的。
I go get my dry cleaning every week, and I go to the grocery store.
我每周都去干洗，然后去杂货店。
I don’t really have a social life like that.
我真的没有那样的社交生活。
And yet, to think of being in Houston and trying to do this would somehow feel harder.
然而，想到在休斯敦并尝试做到这一点，不知何故会感觉更困难。
I don’t know why.
我不知道为什么。
Before my last question, let me just present your book again.
在我提出最后一个问题之前，让我再次介绍一下您的书。
It is The Upside-Down World: Meetings with the Dutch Masters by Benjamin Moser.
这是本杰明·莫泽的《颠倒的世界：与荷兰大师的会面》。
Very last question: What will you do next?
最后一个问题：接下来你会做什么？
Well, this is a secret; it is to be revealed very soon.
嗯，这是一个秘密；很快就会揭晓。
For reasons dealing with my agent, I cannot tell you.
由于与我的经纪人打交道的原因，我无法告诉你。
Is that mysterious and sexy?
是不是神秘又性感？
That’s mysterious and sexy, but then I need a different final question.
这既神秘又性感，但我需要一个不同的最后一个问题。
New project aside, what is it you will next seek to learn about?
除了新项目之外，您接下来想要了解什么？
Well, because of Sontag, I spent a lot of time in the Balkans, and Bosnia especially, and then in Serbia and Croatia.
嗯，因为桑塔格，我在巴尔干地区度过了很多时间，尤其是波斯尼亚，然后又去了塞尔维亚和克罗地亚。
I am now learning the language that is the only language that has two alphabets and at least four different names, which used to be called Serbo-Croatian in the old days.
我现在正在学习的语言是唯一有两个字母和至少四个不同名称的语言，过去被称为塞尔维亚-克罗地亚语。
It’s now called Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, and Montenegrin.
现在被称为塞尔维亚语、克罗地亚语、波斯尼亚语和黑山语。
It’s all the same language, but I’ve been studying that for the last couple of years.
它们都是同一种语言，但过去几年我一直在研究它。
I feel like I’m really too old to learn another language, especially one that I don’t really have any .
我觉得我真的太老了，无法学习另一种语言，尤其是我实际上不会的语言。
.
。
.
。
If I had learned it five, ten years ago, it would’ve been useful for this book.
如果我五、十年前就学会了，它会对这本书有用。
Now I’m just obsessively studying Serbo-Croatian.
现在我正在痴迷于学习塞尔维亚-克罗地亚语。
I have to say, I love it.
我不得不说，我喜欢它。
Who knows?
谁知道？
You learn so many things that have no point to them, and then their point is veiled in mystery.
你学到了很多对他们来说毫无意义的东西，然后它们的意义就被蒙上了一层神秘的面纱。
Then eventually, sometimes, they come in handy.
最终，有时它们会派上用场。
I studied Swedish in college, which was another story because I liked the professor of Swedish, who was the wife of a professor I knew and said, “You should take Swedish.” I didn’t have anything else to do in that afternoon, so I went.
我在大学学习瑞典语，这是另一回事，因为我喜欢瑞典语教授，她是我认识的一位教授的妻子，她说：“你应该学习瑞典语。”那天下午我也没什么事可做，所以就去了。
Swedish has never once in 30 years been of any use to me whatsoever.
三十年来瑞典语对我来说从来没有任何用处。
Whereas Portuguese, which I also studied in college, also completely by accident, has been one of the most important things in my life.
而葡萄牙语，我也在大学里学习过，也完全是出于偶然，它却是我一生中最重要的事情之一。
So, I think that when you study languages, you open up that possibility.
所以，我认为当你学习语言时，你就开启了这种可能性。
Swedish — I’m still waiting for the moment that’s going to come in handy.
瑞典语 — 我还在等待派上用场的那一刻。
It hasn’t happened yet.
这还没有发生。
It’s not going to be today.
不会是今天。
You’ll still be waiting.
你仍然会等待。
Maybe you’ll understand all the rules of cricket first.
也许您会首先了解板球的所有规则。
Benjamin Moser, thank you very much.
本杰明·莫泽，非常感谢你。
Thanks so much.
非常感谢。
Photo Credit: Philippe Quaisse
照片来源：Philippe Quaisse