Ben Westhoff on Synthetic Drugs, Dive Bars, and the Evolution of Rap (Ep. 77)
Today I am here with Ben Westhoff.
今天我和本·韦斯特霍夫一起来到这里。
Two of the very best books I’ve read this year are by Ben.
我今年读过的最好的两本书是本写的。
The first is his recently appeared Fentanyl Inc.: How Rogue Chemists Are Creating the Deadliest Wave of the Opioid Epidemic, and the other one is a book about rap music, titled Original Gangstas: Tupac Shakur, Dr. Dre, Eazy-E, Ice Cube, and the Birth of West Coast Rap.
第一本是他最近出版的《芬太尼公司：流氓化学家如何创造阿片类药物流行病最致命的浪潮》，另一本是一本关于说唱音乐的书，题为“原创黑帮：图帕克·沙库尔、德雷博士、Eazy-E、Ice Cube 和西海岸说唱的诞生”。
I thought anyone who had two such excellent books on such disparate topics was an ideal guest for Conversations with Tyler.
我认为任何拥有两本关于如此不同主题的优秀书籍的人都是《与泰勒对话》的理想嘉宾。
So today, we have with us Ben Westhoff.
今天，我们邀请了本·韦斯特霍夫 (Ben Westhoff)。
Ben, welcome.
本，欢迎。
Thanks for having me here.
谢谢你让我来这里。
I’m such a big fan of your writing and your podcast, and I’m grateful for all of it.
我非常喜欢你的写作和播客，我对这一切都很感激。
On drugs and fentanyl
关于毒品和芬太尼
Let’s start with the topic of drugs and fentanyl.
让我们从毒品和芬太尼的话题开始。
Why is there such a strong geographic component to drug use and sales?
为什么毒品的使用和销售具有如此强烈的地理因素？
Certain drugs seem to be very popular in New Hampshire, but they’re not popular in Florida.
某些药物在新罕布什尔州似乎很受欢迎，但在佛罗里达州并不受欢迎。
Drugs of choice vary across countries.
不同国家选择的药物有所不同。
Fentanyl sales don’t seem to be that high, as far as we can tell, in Florida.
据我们所知，佛罗里达州的芬太尼销量似乎并没有那么高。
What accounts for that?
这是什么原因？
With fentanyl, in particular, in the US, the epidemic is moving from east to west.
尤其是芬太尼，在美国，疫情正在从东向西蔓延。
It started in New England; it’s gradually getting to California.
它始于新英格兰；它正在逐渐到达加利福尼亚州。
In Canada, on the other hand, it’s moving from west to east.
另一方面，在加拿大，它正在从西向东移动。
And this has to do with all these distribution networks — it’s actually the heroin distribution network in the US.
这与所有这些分销网络有关——它实际上是美国的海洛因分销网络。
For whatever reason, east of the Mississippi has always had white-powder heroin, and that, since fentanyl is also white, is very easy to mix.
无论出于何种原因，密西西比河以东一直有白色粉末海洛因，而且由于芬太尼也是白色的，因此很容易混合。
Therefore, the epidemic started in the East.
因此，疫情从东方开始。
West of the Mississippi, they have black-tar heroin, which is full of impurities.
密西西比河以西有黑焦油海洛因，其中充满了杂质。
It’s very dark, as the name implies.
顾名思义，它很暗。
You can’t mix fentanyl in with that at all, so it’s been much slower to take root.
你根本不能将芬太尼与它混合，所以扎根的速度要慢得多。
But if so much fentanyl comes from China, and you can just send it through the mail, why doesn’t it spread automatically wherever it’s going to go?
但如果这么多芬太尼来自中国，而且你可以通过邮件发送，为什么它不会自动传播到目的地呢？
Is it some kind of recommender network?
它是某种推荐网络吗？
It wouldn’t seem that it’s a supply constraint.
这似乎不是供应限制。
It’s more like someone told you about a restaurant they ate at last night.
这更像是有人告诉你他们昨晚吃了一家餐馆。
It’s because the Mexican cartels are still really strongly in the trade.
这是因为墨西哥卡特尔在这一行业中的影响力仍然非常大。
Even though it’s all made in China, much of it is trafficked through the cartels, who buy the precursors, the fentanyl ingredients, from China, make it the rest of the way.
尽管这些产品都是中国制造的，但其中大部分是通过卡特尔贩运的，这些卡特尔从中国购买前体、芬太尼成分，以完成其余的生产。
Then they send it through the border into the US.
然后他们将其通过边境发送到美国。
You can get fentanyl in the mail from China, and many people do.
你可以从中国邮寄芬太尼，很多人都这样做。
It comes right to your door through the US Postal Service.
它通过美国邮政服务直接送到您家门口。
But it takes a certain level of sophistication with the drug dealers to pull that off.
但毒贩需要一定程度的技巧才能做到这一点。
It’s such a big life decision, and it’s shaped by this very small cost of getting a package from New Hampshire to Florida.
这是一个重大的人生决定，而它是由从新罕布什尔州到佛罗里达州获取包裹的极低成本决定的。
What should we infer about human nature as a result of that?
由此我们应该对人性做出什么推断？
What’s your model of the human beings doing this stuff if those geographic differences really make the difference for whether or not you do this and destroy your life?
如果这些地理差异真的会影响你是否这样做并毁掉你的生活，那么你对人类做这件事的模型是什么？
Well, everything is local, right?
好吧，一切都是本地的，对吧？
Not just politics.
不仅仅是政治。
You’re influenced by the people around you and the relative costs.
您会受到周围的人和相对成本的影响。
In St. Louis, it’s so incredibly cheap, like $5 to get some heroin, some fentanyl.
在圣路易斯，海洛因、芬太尼的价格非常便宜，只需 5 美元。
I don’t know how it works in, say, New Hampshire, but I know in places like West Virginia, it’s still a primarily pill market.
我不知道它在新罕布什尔州是如何运作的，但我知道在西弗吉尼亚州等地，它仍然是一个主要的药丸市场。
People don’t use powdered heroin, for example.
例如，人们不使用海洛因粉。
For whatever reason, they prefer Oxycontin.
无论出于何种原因，他们更喜欢奥施康定。
So that has affected the market, too.
这也影响了市场。
Why isn’t fentanyl more of an urban drug?
为什么芬太尼不是一种城市毒品？
Or is it now?
或者是现在？
It is now, yeah.
现在就是这样，是的。
And it’s not a lot talked about.
这并没有被太多谈论。
People think of the opioid epidemic — of which fentanyl is a big part — as a white problem, but heroin abuse in the black community has been happening a long time.
人们认为阿片类药物的流行（芬太尼是其中的一个重要组成部分）是白人问题，但黑人社区的海洛因滥用已经发生很长时间了。
Now it’s almost impossible to find heroin that hasn’t been cut with fentanyl.
现在几乎不可能找到没有经过芬太尼切割的海洛因。
Therefore, places like St. Louis, Chicago, Washington, DC — it’s a big problem.
因此，像圣路易斯、芝加哥、华盛顿特区这样的地方——这是一个大问题。
Given that Belgian scientist Paul Janssen synthesized fentanyl as long ago as 1969 — before the rate of productivity growth slowed down — what took so long for the drug to really spread?
鉴于比利时科学家 Paul Janssen 早在 1969 年就合成了芬太尼（当时生产率增长速度还没有放缓），为什么这种药物花了这么长时间才真正传播开来呢？
That’s a long lag.
这是一个很长的滞后。
I think a lot of it has to do with the internet.
我认为这很大程度上与互联网有关。
Initially, he and other scientists who were making these new drugs published them in papers, and they were in obscure university libraries.
最初，他和其他制造这些新药的科学家将它们发表在论文中，并且存放在不起眼的大学图书馆中。
There were some examples of fentanyl appearing on the streets in the ’80s, for example, but after the internet, then all of these university papers went online, so these rogue chemists could access them.
例如，八十年代街头出现了一些芬太尼的例子，但在互联网出现之后，所有这些大学论文都上网了，所以这些流氓化学家可以访问它们。
Now, with fentanyl, it’s not just fentanyl; it’s all the analogs of fentanyl, which are made by just slightly tweaking the chemical formula.
现在，芬太尼不再只是芬太尼；而是芬太尼。它是芬太尼的所有类似物，只需稍微调整化学式即可制成。
Then you have something 10 times as strong as fentanyl, for example.
例如，你会得到比芬太尼强 10 倍的药物。
The scientists who were all studying these analogs, coming up with them, published their papers, and these chemists were able to find them online.
科学家们都在研究这些类似物，提出它们，发表了他们的论文，这些化学家可以在网上找到它们。
So it’s the product differentiation, eventually, that drove it, and the product differentiation required the internet to get the basic formula and then to spread the variants?
那么最终是产品差异化推动了它，而产品差异化需要互联网获得基本公式，然后传播变体？
Yeah, in a big way because in China, in particular, fentanyl was illegal, but all the analogs weren’t.
是的，很大程度上是因为芬太尼在中国是非法的，但所有类似物却不是。
And so these chemists would make an analog, and then when China banned that one, they’d make another one, and on and on and on.
因此，这些化学家会制作一个类似物，然后当中国禁止该产品时，他们会制作另一种，如此循环往复。
If we’re just sitting here in the 1970s, and there’s a kind of word-of-mouth competition between fentanyl and cocaine, why does cocaine win?
如果我们只是坐在 20 世纪 70 年代，芬太尼和可卡因之间存在某种口碑竞争，为什么可卡因会获胜？
Well, first of all, cocaine comes from a natural plant.
嗯，首先，可卡因来自天然植物。
It’s much easier to make in this era, and it doesn’t kill you by having a tiny amount.
在这个时代做起来容易多了，而且一点点也不会害死你。
Even the DEA, as recently as 2015, did not think fentanyl would be a problem because such a tiny amount could kill you, and the same with all these scientists, so it sort of baffled everyone when it emerged.
就连 DEA，就在 2015 年，也不认为芬太尼会成为问题，因为如此微量的芬太尼就可能致命，所有这些科学家也是如此，所以当它出现时，每个人都感到困惑。
Even the DEA, as recently as 2015, did not think fentanyl would be a problem because such a tiny amount could kill you, and the same with all these scientists, so it sort of baffled everyone when it emerged.
就连 DEA，就在 2015 年，也不认为芬太尼会成为问题，因为如此微量的芬太尼就可能致命，所有这些科学家也是如此，所以当它出现时，每个人都感到困惑。
What was the early FDA stance on fentanyl?
FDA 对芬太尼的早期立场是什么？
In Europe, fentanyl was immediately legalized for hospital use, for medical use.
在欧洲，芬太尼立即在医院和医疗用途上合法化。
But the FDA in the US initially balked, and it wasn’t available here for a while.
但美国 FDA 最初犹豫不决，因此有一段时间无法在美国上市。
I was shocked to learn that the reason they did eventually green-light it was because Paul Janssen himself, the inventor of fentanyl, lobbied for it.
我很震惊地得知他们最终批准的原因是因为芬太尼的发明者保罗·詹森本人的游说。
He called up the guy and said, “Come on, rethink this.” Then they were like, “Okay.”
他打电话给那个人说：“来吧，重新考虑一下。”然后他们就说：“好吧。”
So it was judged safe and effective?
那么就判断是安全有效的吗？
It was mixed — yes.
它是混合的——是的。
It was mixed with dilutant originally, so it was considered that if a junkie or an illicit user tried it, they wouldn’t be a satisfying high.
它最初是与稀释剂混合的，因此人们认为，如果吸毒者或非法使用者尝试它，他们不会获得令人满意的快感。
But eventually, that dilutant was removed.
但最终，稀释剂被去除了。
If you were in the hospital — say you were much older, you had a terminal disease, and you faced the possibility of severe pain, would you take a fentanyl derivative?
如果你在医院——假设你年纪大了，你患有绝症，并且你面临着剧烈疼痛的可能性，你会服用芬太尼衍生物吗？
A legal one, I mean.
我的意思是，合法的。
Probably.
大概。
It’s hard to say, me, personally.
就我个人而言，这很难说。
But people have found great success with this stuff.
但人们已经通过这些东西取得了巨大的成功。
In general, I don’t like opioid prescription pills.
一般来说，我不喜欢阿片类处方药。
I think they get you stoned, but they don’t always address the pain they’re trying to deal with.
我认为它们会让你神魂颠倒，但它们并不总能解决他们试图解决的痛苦。
Overlooking the more general opioid crisis for so long — what was the intellectual failure there?
长期忽视更普遍的阿片类药物危机——那里的智力失败是什么？
Because even leading up to the election of Donald Trump — not that long ago, right?
因为甚至在唐纳德·特朗普当选之前——就在不久之前，对吧？
— the story took many people by surprise, and then we see rates of addiction death rising at very rapid rates over the course of three to four years.
——这个故事让很多人感到惊讶，然后我们看到成瘾死亡率在三到四年内以非常快的速度上升。
What were people missing?
人们失踪了什么？
Is it just that we all are coastal urban elites, removed from the actual realities, or — ?
仅仅是因为我们都是沿海城市的精英，脱离了现实，还是——？
No, I think it had to do with this reclassification of pain as the “fifth vital sign.” Doctors began deciding that people’s pain was a really serious problem, and they deserved to be relieved of it.
不，我认为这与将疼痛重新分类为“第五生命体征”有关。医生们开始认为人们的疼痛是一个非常严重的问题，他们应该得到缓解。
This came to a weird situation because you can’t quantify pain in any effective way, right?
这是一个奇怪的情况，因为你无法以任何有效的方式量化疼痛，对吗？
I remember seeing a doctor, and the doctor said, “One to ten, what’s your pain level?” And I’d say, “Oh, I don’t know, four, seven.” But the doctors were coached that if someone said a certain number — I think it was above seven — then that meant they were eligible and should probably receive an opioid narcotic pain pill.
我记得去看医生，医生说：“一到十，你的疼痛程度是多少？”我会说，“哦，我不知道，四，七。”但医生们接受的指导是，如果有人说出某个数字——我认为是在七个以上——那么就意味着他们有资格，并且可能应该接受阿片类麻醉止痛药。
And this clearly got out of hand very quickly.
这显然很快就失控了。
When did the story first break?
这个故事什么时候第一次爆发？
Who did it, or which group did it?
谁干的，或者哪个团体干的？
How did that happen?
这是怎么发生的？
It happened in so many little ways because at first, when you heard about the opioid, the narcotics, all these different drugs, it was as prescription patches, for example.
它以很多小方式发生，因为一开始，当你听说阿片类药物、麻醉剂、所有这些不同的药物时，它是作为处方贴剂等。
People were putting these fentanyl patches all over their body, four or five, or they were abusing Oxycontin, the hillbilly heroin, as it was known.
人们将这些芬太尼贴剂贴在全身，四五个，或者他们正在滥用奥施康定，即众所周知的乡巴佬海洛因。
Then more in this decade, the effects of people transitioning to heroin, particularly in Sam Quinones’s book Dreamland, really drove it home for a lot of people.
在这十年里，人们转向海洛因的影响，特别是在萨姆·奎诺斯 (Sam Quinones) 的《梦境》一书中，确实让很多人明白了这一点。
Are we still underrating the scope of the problem of addictive substances, which are opioids or chemically derived?
我们是否仍然低估了阿片类药物或化学衍生的成瘾物质问题的范围？
Yes, I believe we definitely are.
是的，我相信我们绝对是。
Even though people are using fewer pills, people are abusing less heroin now, fentanyl deaths are still skyrocketing.
尽管人们使用的药物越来越少，海洛因的滥用也越来越少，芬太尼的死亡人数仍然在猛增。
I heard someone on your blog, someone asked that — all the deaths aside, which are obviously bad — there’s still millions and millions of people addicted.
我在你的博客上听到有人问——除了所有的死亡，这显然很糟糕——仍然有数以百万计的人上瘾。
Even if they’re not dying, how do we quantify the damage to society?
即使他们没有死亡，我们如何量化对社会的损害？
That’s a very good question, and it’s something that’s not even close to going away anytime soon.
这是一个非常好的问题，而且短期内还不会消失。
But if people are underestimating the severity of the problem, what’s the cognitive mistake they’re making?
但如果人们低估了问题的严重性，他们犯了什么认知错误呢？
So often, people over-extrapolate from very recent trends.
人们常常会根据最近的趋势进行过度推断。
Like, “Oh, healthcare costs — it’ll swallow up all of GDP,” because they see a number of years where that rate of increase is high.
就像，“哦，医疗保健费用——它将吞噬所有的 GDP”，因为他们看到多年来增长率很高。
Why are we now putting too little weight on the recent rate of increase, when we usually put too much emphasis on it?
为什么我们通常过于重视近期增长率，而现在却对其重视过少？
That’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
I’ve been shocked at the Democratic debates, for example, and there’s so little talk about this.
例如，我对民主党辩论感到震惊，而对此的讨论却很少。
There’s more people dying than at the peak of the AIDS crisis, and I’ve got to think that it’s because these are marginalized members of society, generally.
死亡人数比艾滋病危机最严重时还要多，我必须认为这是因为这些人总体上是社会边缘化成员。
You hear plenty about politicians’ kids who die from fentanyl and opioids, but mainly it’s marginalized people, and they’re just not on anyone’s priority list, it seems like.
你听说过很多政客的孩子死于芬太尼和阿片类药物的消息，但主要是边缘化人群，而且他们似乎不在任何人的优先考虑名单上。
If it’s mainly marginalized people, if we take a nonmarginalized person, someone with a high income, pretty high social status, is the main difference that they don’t try it at all?
如果主要是边缘化的人，如果我们拿一个非边缘化的人来说，一个高收入、相当高社会地位的人，主要的区别是他们根本不尝试吗？
Or when they try it, because maybe they have a better life, they’re able to resist temptation better?
或者当他们尝试时，因为也许他们有更好的生活，他们能够更好地抵制诱惑？
How much of the isolation of the problem into lower income or status is due to which factor?
问题在多大程度上归因于较低的收入或地位？
Well, it’s not actually these drugs which kill people because you can take a safe dose of heroin.
嗯，实际上并不是这些药物会杀人，因为你可以服用安全剂量的海洛因。
You can even take a safe dose of fentanyl.
您甚至可以服用安全剂量的芬太尼。
It’s all these lifestyle things surrounding the drug use — dirty needles, for example, crime, prostitution to earn the money to get these drugs — and so these tend to be the problems.
所有这些生活方式都围绕着吸毒——例如肮脏的针头、犯罪、卖淫来赚钱获取这些毒品——所以这些往往是问题所在。
If you’re wealthy, you have access, you can buy directly from China in a very pure form, for example, and have access to good healthcare.
如果你很富有，你就有机会，例如，你可以直接从中国以非常纯净的形式购买，并且可以获得良好的医疗保健。
But let’s say I’m a lawyer; I earn 170K a year.
但假设我是一名律师；我一年赚17万。
I try a potent version of fentanyl once.
我尝试过一次强效芬太尼。
It doesn’t kill me.
它不会杀了我。
What am I likely to do next?
接下来我可能会做什么？
Stop, kill myself, something else?
停下来，自杀，或者别的什么？
Move on to heroin?
继续吸食海洛因吗？
You’d probably use it again, I hate to say.
我不想说，你可能会再次使用它。
People describe it as that good.
人们形容它很好。
So the key decision is not using it at all?
那么关键的决定是根本不使用它吗？
That would be my recommendation, absolutely.
这绝对是我的建议。
But not just recommendation.
但不仅仅是推荐。
Predictively, the people who avoid it do it by never using it.
可以预见的是，那些避免使用它的人就是从不使用它。
People have totally different physiologies, too.
人们也有完全不同的生理机能。
People have addictive personalities, and I think everyone knows if they have one of these or not.
人们都有令人上瘾的性格，我想每个人都知道他们是否有其中一种。
I don’t, but other people — when it comes to alcohol, for example, one drink is never enough.
我不这么认为，但其他人——例如，当谈到酒精时，喝一杯是永远不够的。
If I think of the crack epidemic of the 1980s, the 1990s, there’s a pattern, a significant chunk of at least a generation burning itself out.
如果我想到 20 世纪 80 年代和 90 年代的毒品流行，就会发现有一种模式，至少有一代人在精疲力竭。
But then, maybe it’s the younger siblings see what’s happened, and interest in the drug wanes, and some semi-stable equilibrium reemerges.
但后来，也许是弟弟妹妹看到了发生的事情，对药物的兴趣减弱了，一些半稳定的平衡重新出现。
Is that going to happen with opioids and fentanyl?
阿片类药物和芬太尼会发生这种情况吗？
Or is this a different pattern because maybe they’re more addictive?
或者这是一种不同的模式，因为它们可能更容易上瘾？
If we go back through the decades, yes.
如果我们回顾几十年，是的。
Crack really did seem to burn out, but that seems to me to be kind of the exception to the rule.
裂纹确实似乎已经耗尽了，但在我看来，这似乎是规则的例外。
Take the meth epidemic, for example.
以冰毒流行为例。
We thought that was sort of winding down, and the passage of these laws made it so you couldn’t get Sudafed without going behind the counter.
我们认为这有点结束了，而这些法律的通过使得你不能不去柜台后面就得到 Sudafed。
So they thought, well, the production is going to stop.
所以他们想，好吧，生产将会停止。
Instead, it went to Mexico.
相反，它去了墨西哥。
Now meth is worse than ever.
现在冰毒比以往任何时候都更糟糕。
Cocaine, same thing.
可卡因，同样的事情。
It seemed to be on the decline.
它似乎正在下降。
Pablo Escobar was killed.
巴勃罗·埃斯科巴被杀。
Now there’s more cocaine coming out of Colombia than ever.
现在来自哥伦比亚的可卡因比以往任何时候都多。
So I am certainly not optimistic at all that the opioid epidemic is going to wind itself down.
因此，我对阿片类药物流行病的消退当然一点也不乐观。
But what’s the right way to think about the equilibrium?
但思考均衡的正确方法是什么？
Will it just be 17 percent of us are drug addicts, and some percent of those people die, and it will be that way forever?
难道我们当中只有 17% 的人是吸毒者，其中一部分人会死亡，而且这种情况会永远持续下去吗？
Or what social forces will restore, we hope, a better equilibrium?
或者我们希望什么社会力量能够恢复更好的平衡？
I don’t think it will be that way forever because I think people are starting to think about the problem in the right way, finally.
我认为这种情况不会永远如此，因为我认为人们最终开始以正确的方式思考这个问题。
We’ve always been so focused on the supply side for all these years, and that’s right now, too.
这些年来我们一直非常关注供给侧，现在也是如此。
My book is about China and how China is feeding the problem.
我的书是关于中国以及中国如何解决这个问题的。
But now that people in power know people who are dying, themselves, they’ve started to think that drug addiction and whatnot is a disease.
但现在当权者知道自己正在死去的人，他们开始认为吸毒成瘾之类的东西是一种疾病。
We’re trying to think about how to educate people, how to give them treatment, how to do harm reduction, which is basically admitting that people are always going to use drugs, and finding more safe ways for them to do it.
我们正在努力思考如何教育人们，如何为他们提供治疗，如何减少伤害，这基本上就是承认人们总是会使用毒品，并为他们找到更安全的方法。
So even if the abuse rate, even if the number of people trying these drugs for the first time stays the same, I think that we can reduce the casualties.
因此，即使滥用率、即使首次尝试这些药物的人数保持不变，我认为我们可以减少伤亡。
True or false, the opioid crisis is driven primarily by restrictions on the legal access to opioids?
无论真假，阿片类药物危机主要是由于对阿片类药物合法获取的限制造成的？
Legal — that’s a little tricky because I wouldn’t say it’s driven by the legal access because, for example, decriminalization has had a really positive effect.
法律——这有点棘手，因为我不会说这是由合法渠道驱动的，因为例如，非刑事化确实产生了积极的影响。
But I do think that the way we go about the war on drugs is feeding the problem, absolutely.
但我确实认为，我们反毒品战争的方式绝对是在助长问题。
So what does the world look like if we decriminalize opioids?
那么，如果我们将阿片类药物合法化，世界会是什么样子呢？
What forces step in to make things better?
是什么力量介入让事情变得更好？
First of all, people are treated like they have a disease, so they’re not sent to prison or jail, and it doesn’t start the cycle of recidivism again.
首先，人们被当作患有疾病一样对待，所以他们不会被送进监狱或看守所，也不会再次开始累犯的循环。
People are instead given these opioid blockers or these low-level opioids like methadone and Suboxone and can figure their lives out.
相反，人们会服用这些阿片类药物阻滞剂或低浓度阿片类药物（如美沙酮和 Suboxone），并可以弄清楚自己的生活。
That’s the main driver, to be honest, of the opioid epidemic.
老实说，这是阿片类药物流行的主要驱动力。
It’s not just that people are taking these addictive drugs; it’s that their lives are a mess.
不仅仅是人们服用这些令人上瘾的药物；他们的生活一团糟。
So sending someone to jail just makes their life a bigger mess.
因此，将某人送进监狱只会让他们的生活变得更加混乱。
Given time, counseling, and help, people can actually beat these drugs.
只要有时间、咨询和帮助，人们实际上可以战胜这些药物。
Did New Zealand do the right thing, legalizing so many synthetic drugs in 2013?
新西兰在 2013 年将如此多的合成毒品合法化，这样做正确吗？
I absolutely think they did.
我绝对认为他们做到了。
It was an unprecedented thing.
这是前所未有的事情。
Now drugs like marijuana, cocaine, heroin, all the drugs you’ve heard of, are internationally banned.
现在，大麻、可卡因、海洛因等所有你听说过的毒品都在国际上被禁止。
But what New Zealand did was it legalized these forms of synthetic marijuana.
但新西兰所做的是将这些形式的合成大麻合法化。
So synthetic marijuana has a really bad reputation.
因此，合成大麻的名声非常不好。
It goes by names like K2 and Spice, and it’s big in homeless populations.
它被称为 K2 和 Spice 等，无家可归者人数众多。
It’s causing huge problems in places like DC.
它在像华盛顿这样的地方造成了巨大的问题。
But if you make synthetic marijuana right, as this character in my book named Matt Bowden was doing in New Zealand, you can actually make it so it’s less toxic, so it’s somewhat safe.
但如果你正确地制造合成大麻，就像我书中的这个名叫马特·鲍登的人物在新西兰所做的那样，你实际上可以制造出它的毒性较小，所以它在某种程度上是安全的。
That’s what he did.
他就是这么做的。
They legalized these safer forms of it, and the overdose rate plummeted.
他们将这些更安全的形式合法化，服药过量率直线下降。
Very shortly thereafter, however, they banned them again, and now deaths from synthetic marijuana in New Zealand have gone way up.
然而不久之后，他们再次禁止使用合成大麻，现在新西兰因合成大麻造成的死亡人数大幅上升。
And what about Portugal and Slovenia — their experiments in decriminalization?
那么葡萄牙和斯洛文尼亚的非刑事化实验又如何呢？
How have those gone?
那些怎么样了？
By all accounts, they’ve been massive successes.
从各方面来看，他们都取得了巨大的成功。
Portugal had this huge problem with heroin, talking like one out of every 100 members of the population was touched by it, or something like that.
葡萄牙在海洛因方面存在巨大问题，据说每 100 名人口中就有一人接触过海洛因，或者类似的事情。
And now those rates have gone way down.
现在这些利率已经大幅下降。
In Slovenia, they have no fentanyl problem.
在斯洛文尼亚，他们没有芬太尼问题。
They barely have an opioid problem.
他们几乎没有阿片类药物问题。
Their rates of AIDS and other diseases passed through needles have gone way down.
他们通过针头传播艾滋病和其他疾病的比率大幅下降。
If we look at Vancouver, where they have safe injection sites but a persistently high death rate from drug use, is that an argument against decriminalization and public health treatment of these drugs?
如果我们看看温哥华，那里有安全的注射地点，但吸毒死亡率持续居高不下，这是否是反对这些药物非刑事化和公共卫生治疗的论据？
That’s a very good question because Vancouver was seen as the city who was doing things right with these supervised injection facilities, where you can legally shoot up fentanyl and heroin, and there’s doctors and nurses and clean needles, so people applauded that.
这是一个非常好的问题，因为温哥华被认为是一个在这些受监督的注射设施方面做得很好的城市，在那里你可以合法地注射芬太尼和海洛因，并且有医生和护士以及干净的针头，所以人们对此表示赞赏。
But the overdose death rate has actually gone up since these facilities have come in.
但自从这些设施投入使用以来，服药过量死亡率实际上有所上升。
Now the supporters of the facilities say death rates would have gone up even more without these sites, but that’s a hard argument to make.
现在，这些设施的支持者表示，如果没有这些设施，死亡率会更高，但这是一个很难提出的论点。
I’m generally very much in favor of these types of facilities, and they’ve worked great in places like Europe, but I cannot explain what’s happening in Vancouver.
我总体上非常赞成这些类型的设施，它们在欧洲等地运作良好，但我无法解释温哥华发生的事情。
Let’s say you’re in charge of Singapore.
假设您负责新加坡。
As you probably know, there aren’t many ways into Singapore.
您可能知道，进入新加坡的方式并不多。
Also, as you probably know, Singapore is fairly willing to simply execute drug dealers.
此外，您可能知道，新加坡相当愿意处决毒贩。
Would you relax this policy and move toward decriminalization?
您会放松这项政策并走向非刑事化吗？
Or would you just say, “We’re Singapore.
或者你会说：“我们是新加坡。
You can’t get in here that easily.
你不能那么轻易地进入这里。
We’re going to keep it tough”?
我们要保持强硬”？
No, I’m not in favor of executing drug dealers or anyone else.
不，我不赞成处决毒贩或其他任何人。
So life in prison?
那么终身监禁吗？
If the materials are so potent and so harmful, and if you’re in a country that can, to some degree, keep the material out, why not just be as tough as possible?
如果这些材料如此有效且如此有害，而且如果你所在的国家可以在某种程度上将这些材料拒之门外，为什么不尽可能地强硬呢？
I think you’re deluding yourself if you think you can keep it out, even in a landlocked, even in a place like Singapore that’s so hard to have entries.
如果你认为你可以把它拒之门外，即使是在内陆国家，即使是在像新加坡这样很难入境的地方，我认为你是在自欺欺人。
Sure, yeah.
当然，是的。
These are synthetic drugs, and this revolution is that everything is moving toward synthetic, and that is what can be made anywhere.
这些都是合成药物，这场革命是一切都朝着合成的方向发展，而且这是可以在任何地方制造的。
Often, the big problem with harsh penalties against dealers is that the dealer is often just an addicted user.
通常，对经销商进行严厉处罚的一个大问题是，经销商往往只是一个上瘾的用户。
These are the same people.
这些都是同一个人。
Now, it’s all fine and well to say, “We’re going to go after the top, the kingpin” or whatever, but ultimately, what happens is you just end up locking up a lot of very low-level addicted users, essentially.
现在，说“我们要追求顶级、主宰”或其他什么都很好，但最终会发生的事情是，本质上，你最终会锁定很多非常低级别的上瘾用户。
America is legalizing, decriminalizing, or simply tolerating marijuana use to a very surprising degree.
美国正在将大麻合法化、非刑事化，或者只是容忍大麻的使用，其程度令人惊讶。
Unprecedented in this country.
在这个国家是史无前例的。
What do you see that equilibrium looking like?
您认为这种平衡是什么样的？
There is really preliminary data coming out of places like Colorado, which was one of the first to legalize.
科罗拉多州等地确实提供了初步数据，科罗拉多州是最早合法化的地方之一。
And it’s encouraging for the most part.
这在很大程度上是令人鼓舞的。
Kids aren’t using it in greater rates.
孩子们并没有以更高的频率使用它。
The one thing to be worried about is that deaths from driving while stoned are increasing, so this is something to be worried about.
值得担心的一件事是，醉酒驾驶造成的死亡人数正在增加，所以这是值得担心的事情。
I tend to think, and I think you’ve said this on your blog or a link to it, that decriminalization is maybe a way to think about it.
我倾向于认为，而且我想你已经在你的博客或链接上说过了，非刑事化可能是一种思考方式。
In places like St. Louis, where I’m from, they’re having more success.
在我的家乡圣路易斯这样的地方，他们取得了更大的成功。
They’re not locking up people.
他们不会把人关起来。
But at the same time, there’s not a store selling weed on every corner.
但与此同时，并不是每个角落都有卖大麻的商店。
I’m not an expert on the legalization of marijuana, but I urge a little bit of caution in all that’s happening.
我不是大麻合法化方面的专家，但我敦促对正在发生的一切保持谨慎。
Is the American Medical Association responsibly managing the prescribing authority it grants to doctors when it licenses them?
美国医学会在向医生颁发执照时是否负责任地管理其授予医生的处方权？
Would you change those policies?
你会改变这些政策吗？
The only thing that I know that should probably be changed is that to prescribe these treatments, you need to go through this rigorous screening.
我知道唯一可能应该改变的是，要开出这些治疗方法，您需要经过严格的筛选。
I think it should be much easier to prescribe the treatment drugs like Suboxone.
我认为开Suboxone这样的治疗药物应该容易得多。
When it comes to prescribing opioids and things like that, I know the pendulum is way swinging in the other direction now, and it’s becoming much harder to do this.
当谈到开阿片类药物之类的处方时，我知道钟摆现在正朝另一个方向摆动，而且这样做变得越来越困难。
This is affecting a lot of people who have chronic pain and who are using opioids over the long term.
这影响着许多患有慢性疼痛并长期使用阿片类药物的人。
Now, there’s evidence to show that opioid use long term is not helpful at all, that you’re just creating a new problem.
现在，有证据表明，长期使用阿片类药物根本没有帮助，只会造成新问题。
But taking away people’s opioids, I also think is not the answer, who are using them for medical reasons.
但我也认为拿走人们的阿片类药物并不是答案，因为人们出于医疗原因而使用它们。
Do nurses and doctors view opioids differently?
护士和医生对阿片类药物的看法不同吗？
I have no idea.
我不知道。
Should anyone become a fentanyl addict?
任何人都应该成为芬太尼成瘾者吗？
Is there any rational case for becoming addicted?
上瘾有什么合理的理由吗？
Not that I can think of.
我想不到。
Say you don’t have much time left in life.
假设你的人生所剩时间不多了。
Why not do it?
为什么不这样做呢？
Empirically, I don’t observe that’s when people do it, but you would think under a rational Gary Becker model of addiction, you would see more of it.
根据经验，我没有观察到人们会这样做，但你会认为在理性的加里·贝克尔成瘾模型下，你会看到更多这样的情况。
Yeah, I’ve thought about if the end of the world was coming, and I knew it was coming, what would I do?
是的，我曾经想过，如果世界末日即将到来，而且我知道它即将到来，我会做什么？
Well, I’m a vegetarian, but I would love to have a Whopper again.
好吧，我是素食主义者，但我很想再吃一个皇堡。
I would want to try heroin, that’s what I think in these last few moments.
我想尝试一下海洛因，这就是我在最后一刻的想法。
But then really, ultimately, you’re feeling this euphoria, but then coming down is much worse.
但实际上，最终，你会感受到这种欣快感，但接下来的情况会更糟。
So, to me, it just wouldn’t be worth it.
所以，对我来说，这是不值得的。
Can you imagine that we create synthetic drugs where there’s a high but no crash afterwards?
你能想象我们制造的合成药物会产生高浓度但之后不会崩溃吗？
Or is that physiologically very, very difficult?
或者这在生理上是非常非常困难的吗？
I think physiologically, just from my own experience as a human, consuming all sorts of psychoactive substances, including coffee, right?
我认为从生理上来说，仅从我作为人类的经验来看，消费各种精神活性物质，包括咖啡，对吗？
There’s no free lunch.
天下没有免费的午餐。
You drink coffee, you feel great for a while, and then you have a crash.
你喝咖啡，有一段时间感觉很好，然后你就崩溃了。
You eat a big piece of chocolate cake, you feel great, there’s a crash.
你吃了一大块巧克力蛋糕，感觉棒极了，然后就崩溃了。
I just don’t think it’s out there.
我只是不认为它在那里。
What other changes to US drug policy would you make, beyond what we’ve discussed?
除了我们讨论的内容之外，您还会对美国毒品政策做出哪些其他改变？
There are places like the state of Pennsylvania, which for some reason bans fentanyl testing strips to help people find out if what they’ve got is pure heroin or heroin mixed with fentanyl, for example.
例如，像宾夕法尼亚州这样的地方，出于某种原因禁止使用芬太尼试纸，以帮助人们查明他们所获得的是否是纯海洛因或与芬太尼混合的海洛因。
Fentanyl testing strips save a lot of lives.
芬太尼试纸挽救了许多人的生命。
It’s crazy that it’s illegal in places.
这在某些地方是非法的，这太疯狂了。
There’s also something called the RAVE Act, which was coauthored by Joe Biden.
还有一个叫做《RAVE Act》的法案，由乔·拜登共同撰写。
What it does is it cracks down on concert promoters, rave promoters, and they are not allowed .
它的作用就是打击演唱会的主办方、狂欢派对的主办方，他们是不被允许的。
.
。
.
。
in these big bacchanals with tens of thousands of people at these raves, electronic dance music parties, everyone’s using drugs.
在这些狂欢、电子舞曲派对上成千上万人的狂欢中，每个人都在吸毒。
And yet because of this obscure law called the RAVE Act, they’re not allowed to check their drugs.
然而，由于这项名为“RAVE 法案”的晦涩法律，他们不被允许检查他们的毒品。
They’re not allowed to hand out these kits that help people realize if they’re taking what they think they are or something else.
他们不允许分发这些工具包来帮助人们意识到他们是否服用了他们认为的东西或其他东西。
That’s why at these raves, you always hear about someone dying, and in my opinion, this is just a crazy law.
这就是为什么在这些狂欢中，你总是听到有人死去，在我看来，这只是一条疯狂的法律。
On fentanyl and China
关于芬太尼和中国
Now let’s turn to China.
现在我们把目光转向中国。
How complicit is China in the export of fentanyl?
中国在芬太尼出口中的共谋程度如何？
The Chinese government, that is.
就是中国政府。
The Chinese government, as we all know, is not one thing.
众所周知，中国政府不是一回事。
There are all these different layers of government.
有所有这些不同的政府层级。
And at the top level, it’s crazy because China offers these VAT rebates — value-added tax rebates — for fentanyl exports.
从顶层来看，这很疯狂，因为中国为芬太尼出口提供增值税退税。
Including the ones sent to the Mexican drug gangs?
包括那些被送到墨西哥贩毒团伙的？
Exactly.
确切地。
Anyone.
任何人。
Ostensibly, this should be for the legal sale of fentanyl, but it’s so poorly enforced that there’s undoubtedly these subsidies and many more going directly to the cartels.
表面上看，这应该是为了合法销售芬太尼，但执行得很差，毫无疑问，这些补贴和更多补贴都直接流向了卡特尔。
I reported on this for the fentanyl precursors.
我曾报道过芬太尼前体的情况。
So that, to me, is crazy that the government is offering tax incentives and other grants and subsidies for the export of fentanyl and fentanyl-like drugs.
因此，对我来说，政府为芬太尼和芬太尼类药物的出口提供税收优惠和其他赠款和补贴是疯狂的。
Why does that persist?
为什么这种情况持续存在？
What’s the political economy?
什么是政治经济？
I think it’s trying to grow China’s chemical industries exports.
我认为它正在努力增加中国化学工业的出口。
China has the biggest chemical industry in the world, but the problem is, they don’t make as much money because it’s focused on generics, mostly.
中国拥有世界上最大的化学工业，但问题是，他们赚的钱不多，因为它主要专注于仿制药。
The US — our industry is smaller, but we do these brand-name, expensive pharmaceuticals.
美国——我们的行业规模较小，但我们生产这些昂贵的名牌药品。
China is trying to go up the value chain, and they’re trying to encourage the export of more expensive chemicals and pharmaceuticals.
中国正在努力提升价值链，并鼓励出口更昂贵的化学品和药品。
That’s why all these obscure fentanyl analogs get these export rebates.
这就是为什么所有这些不起眼的芬太尼类似物都能获得出口退税。
I think it’s been an unfortunate side effect that so many of them are going to illicit uses.
我认为这是一个不幸的副作用，其中许多都被非法使用。
Has President Trump had any success in shutting down the supply of fentanyl from China?
特朗普总统在切断中国芬太尼供应方面是否取得了成功？
I will give Trump credit for making the fentanyl discussion part of his trade war.
我赞扬特朗普将芬太尼讨论纳入其贸易战。
He got China to ban all of the fentanyl analogs, which became effective a few months ago.
他促使中国禁止所有芬太尼类似物，该禁令于几个月前生效。
He’s kind of used fentanyl as sort of a carrot and a stick to varying degrees of success, but —
他使用芬太尼作为胡萝卜加大棒，取得了不同程度的成功，但是——
Do we know yet if that’s mattered?
我们知道这是否重要吗？
I’m fairly certain that it’s going to make some difference because whenever China bans one of these drugs, you see an effect in the US.
我相当肯定这会产生一些影响，因为每当中国禁止其中一种药物时，你就会在美国看到效果。
The seizures drop.
癫痫发作下降。
It’s a little too early to tell, but I suspect it will have some effect.
现在说还为时过早，但我怀疑它会产生一些影响。
What’s the drug of choice within China?
在中国首选的药物是什么？
The three most abused drugs are heroin, meth, and Ketamine.
三种最常滥用的药物是海洛因、冰毒和氯胺酮。
Marijuana barely registers.
大麻几乎没有被注意到。
Why don’t they like pot?
为什么他们不喜欢锅？
That’s a really, really good question.
这是一个非常非常好的问题。
I’ve heard stories of people who go on a crowded Chinese subway car and are smoking weed or hash openly.
我听说过有人在拥挤的中国地铁车厢里公开吸食大麻或大麻的故事。
It’s an annoying thing to do.
这是一件很烦人的事情。
Or they’re doing it in public, and no one even says anything because they’re not used to the smell.
或者他们在公共场合这样做，甚至没有人说什么，因为他们不习惯这种气味。
Why don’t the Chinese do fentanyl more?
为什么中国人不更多使用芬太尼？
They have it locally.
他们在当地有。
It’s very cheap, highly addictive.
它非常便宜，很容易上瘾。
They can recommend it to each other on WeChat.
他们可以在微信上互相推荐。
Why doesn’t that happen?
为什么没有发生这种情况？
The fentanyl crisis really has only come to pass in places that had the opioid crisis, starting with the over-prescription of Oxycontin and all that.
芬太尼危机实际上只发生在发生阿片类药物危机的地方，首先是奥施康定的过度处方等等。
It’s the US and Canada, but they never had that problem in China and a lot of other parts of the world, too.
这是美国和加拿大，但他们在中国和世界其他许多地方也从未遇到过这个问题。
So their doctors make other mistakes?
那么他们的医生还会犯其他错误吗？
Undoubtedly.
无疑。
All the reporting you’ve done on fentanyl in China — how has that revised your view of China more generally?
您对中国芬太尼所做的所有报道——这如何更广泛地改变了您对中国的看法？
The drugs aside.
药物放在一边。
I have to say I loved being in China.
我不得不说我喜欢在中国。
It was so exhilarating.
真是太令人兴奋了。
Now the State Department has told me I can probably never go back, which is very sad, due to all my investigative reporting there.
现在国务院告诉我，我可能永远无法回去，这非常令人难过，因为我在那里做了所有的调查报告。
But I don’t know.
但我不知道。
I think if China — really, like the US — supposedly people around the world hate the US policies, but clearly, we’re a force for good in many ways.
我认为，如果中国——真的像美国一样——世界各地的人们都会讨厌美国的政策，但显然，我们在很多方面都是一股正义的力量。
The US is not one thing.
美国不是一回事。
There’s extremely liberal people, there’s extremely conservative people, and I begin to think of China as the same way.
有极其自由的人，也有极其保守的人，我开始以同样的方式看待中国。
It’s absorbed all these other countries around it.
它吸收了周围所有其他国家。
It’s doing this incredible innovation in so many ways.
它以多种方式进行着令人难以置信的创新。
The food, the culture is astounding.
食物、文化都令人惊叹。
But at the same time, they’re evil in their own ways.
但与此同时，他们也以自己的方式邪恶。
Are you allowed to tell us why you can’t go back?
你能告诉我们为什么你不能回去吗？
Basically because I’d be worried of being put in a Chinese jail just for my work.
基本上是因为我担心因为我的工作而被关进中国监狱。
When I went there before, I didn’t have proper credentialing, necessarily, so that’s reason enough.
当我以前去那里时，我必然没有适当的资格认证，所以这就是足够的理由。
What’s your favorite part of China?
你最喜欢中国的哪个地方？
I love being in Beijing, and I love the food and the music culture.
我喜欢北京，喜欢北京的美食和音乐文化。
I don’t know, everything about it really.
我不知道，一切都是真的。
And given what you’ve absorbed and learned about China, what view might you have on the trade war that maybe the rest of us would not?
鉴于您对中国的吸收和了解，您对贸易战可能有什么看法，而我们其他人可能不会？
Unfortunately, on a podcast that so many economists listen to, I probably should just stay out of this.
不幸的是，在这么多经济学家收听的播客上，我可能不应该参与其中。
Well, it could be a noneconomic insight about how the Chinese perceive it, or what citizens are allowed to know about the trade war, or —
好吧，这可能是关于中国人如何看待贸易战的非经济见解，或者公民可以了解哪些贸易战，或者——
In general, they’re not allowed to know anything that the government doesn’t want them to know.
一般来说，他们不被允许知道政府不想让他们知道的任何事情。
For example, no one knows anything about fentanyl because no one wrote about it, so I’m sure that there’s a complete lack of credible information.
例如，没有人对芬太尼一无所知，因为没有人写过有关它的文章，所以我确信完全缺乏可靠的信息。
On things under- and overrated
关于被低估和高估的事情
Now we’re about at the middle of our segment.
现在我们正处于我们的部分的中间。
Therefore, we turn to underrated versus overrated.
因此，我们转向被低估与高估。
We are going to get to rap music, but some of these will leap ahead a bit.
我们将开始介绍说唱音乐，但其中一些会稍微提前一些。
But let’s start off with an easy one.
但让我们从一个简单的开始。
Taylor Swift — underrated or overrated?
泰勒·斯威夫特——被低估还是高估？
I’d have to say underrated.
我不得不说被低估了。
People are always complaining about her for some reason, but she does nothing but make amazingly great and catchy songs, so I see no problem with her.
人们总是出于某种原因抱怨她，但她什么也不做，只是创作出令人惊叹的伟大和朗朗上口的歌曲，所以我认为她没有问题。
Gil Scott-Heron, possibly a forerunner of rap music — overrated or underrated?
吉尔·斯科特·海伦 (Gil Scott-Heron)，可能是说唱音乐的先驱——被高估还是低估？
I would say underrated, generally — his body of work, but overrated as the forefather of rap music, for example.
我想说的是，总的来说，他的作品被低估了，但例如，他作为说唱音乐的鼻祖却被高估了。
People are often citing him, but I don’t see him being the main creator.
人们经常引用他，但我不认为他是主要创造者。
Clint Eastwood?
克林特·伊斯特伍德？
Clint Eastwood as a director, probably underrated.
克林特·伊斯特伍德作为导演，可能被低估了。
I like so many of his films.
我喜欢他的很多电影。
But as a public intellectual, I’m sure quite overrated.
但作为一名公共知识分子，我肯定被高估了。
The city of St. Louis?
圣路易斯市？
Completely underrated.
完全被低估了。
Why?
为什么？
St. Louis has so much going for it that people don’t realize.
圣路易斯有很多值得人们关注的地方，但人们却没有意识到。
The architecture is gorgeous.
建筑很华丽。
It’s kind of a crumbling, decaying city, but there’s a beauty in that.
这是一座摇摇欲坠、腐朽的城市，但其中也有一种美丽。
The St. Louis Cardinals are an amazing small-market franchise that always punches above their weight.
圣路易斯红雀队是一支令人惊叹的小市场球队，总是表现出色。
It’s kind of like a social activity just to go to the games.
这有点像只是去看比赛的社交活动。
People that go know nothing about baseball.
去的人对棒球一无所知。
They just go to have a beer and chat with each other.
他们只是去喝杯啤酒，互相聊天。
There is a lot of parking, there is incredibly cheap housing, and —
有很多停车位，有非常便宜的住房，而且——
Why don’t more people move there, then?
那么为什么没有更多的人搬到那里呢？
Why isn’t it a no-brainer?
为什么这不是理所当然的事情呢？
“I’ll go to St. Louis.” One great university, a lot of hospitals.
“我要去圣路易斯。”一所伟大的大学，很多医院。
Yeah, there’s some even more good universities —
是的，还有一些更好的大学——
What’s the catch?
有什么问题吗？
For one thing, the crime rate is very, very high, and it’s also made to seem even higher because the county and the city are tabulated separately.
一方面，犯罪率非常非常高，而且因为县和市是分开列出的，所以看起来更高。
I think people see these statistics and they’re like, “Ohhh.” The Ferguson unrest five years ago — I think it was a very important thing that happened, but I think it generated negative publicity for St. Louis.
我认为人们看到这些统计数据后会想：“噢。”五年前的弗格森骚乱——我认为这是一件非常重要的事情，但我认为它给圣路易斯带来了负面宣传。
New Jersey hip-hop — underrated or overrated?
新泽西嘻哈——被低估还是高估？
Again, very underrated.
再次，非常被低估。
I think New Jersey gets a bad rap in just about everything, but the first popular hip-hop song, “Rapper’s Delight,” came from New Jersey.
我认为新泽西州几乎在所有方面都受到了不好的评价，但第一首流行的嘻哈歌曲“说唱歌手的喜悦”来自新泽西州。
The Sugar Hill Records was basically like a hit factory in early hip-hop.
Sugar Hill 唱片公司基本上就像早期嘻哈音乐中的热门工厂。
All of these important people like Queen Latifah and Naughty by Nature, and even Jay-Z spent a bunch of time in his early days coming up in New Jersey.
所有这些重要人物，例如 Queen Latifah 和 Naughty by Nature，甚至 Jay-Z 早年都在新泽西度过了很多时光。
So it’s very important.
所以这非常重要。
So where does the underrating come from?
那么低估从何而来？
Everyone talks about the South Bronx, right?
每个人都在谈论南布朗克斯，对吧？
Why don’t they talk about New Jersey?
他们为什么不谈论新泽西州？
Any possible reason for that?
有什么可能的原因吗？
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
It’s like, “Where are you from in New York?” “Well, the South Bronx.” “Well, what part of the South Bronx?” “Oh, this part.” But if you’re from New Jersey, it’s just New Jersey.
就像，“你来自纽约哪里？” “嗯，南布朗克斯。” “嗯，南布朗克斯的哪一部分？” “哦，这个部分。”但如果你来自新泽西州，那就只是新泽西州。
It’s just one big place.
这只是一个大地方。
It doesn’t have its own little regional identity.
它没有自己的小区域特征。
Mixed martial arts — overrated or underrated?
综合格斗——被高估还是被低估？
I’ve got to say overrated, but that’s just because I don’t know anything about it.
我不得不说被高估了，但这只是因为我对此一无所知。
Tupac or Biggie?
图帕克还是比吉？
I was a Biggie fan, like most music critics are, for a long time, and there’s really no arguing with his style.
很长一段时间以来，我一直是 Biggie 的粉丝，就像大多数音乐评论家一样，他的风格确实无可争议。
He’s basically platonic perfection when it comes to delivering a rap song.
在创作说唱歌曲时，他基本上是柏拉图式的完美。
But I really came around to Tupac, though he’s not as smooth as Biggie.
但我真的很喜欢图帕克，尽管他不像比吉那么圆滑。
He’s not as perfect, but he ultimately was rapping about something.
他并不完美，但他最终还是在说唱一些东西。
He has a message.
他有一个消息。
He was about liberating the people, about understanding yourself and being who you are.
他致力于解放人民、了解你自己并成为你自己。
And Biggie was mostly about parties and the club and stuff like that.
Biggie 主要关注派对、俱乐部之类的事情。
I really came around to Tupac, though he’s not as smooth as Biggie.
我真的很喜欢图帕克，尽管他不像比吉那么圆滑。
He’s not as perfect, but he ultimately was rapping about something.
他并不完美，但他最终还是在说唱一些东西。
He has a message.
他有一个消息。
He was about liberating the people, about understanding yourself and being who you are.
他致力于解放人民、了解你自己并成为你自己。
Stevie Wonder or Marvin Gaye?
史蒂夫·旺德还是马文·盖伊？
I would have to say Stevie Wonder, I just love him so much.
我不得不说史蒂夫·旺德，我非常爱他。
I love Marvin Gaye, too.
我也喜欢马文·盖伊。
Seinfeld or Larry David?
《宋飞正传》还是拉里·大卫？
Seinfeld.
宋飞传。
Again, there’s just like a platonic perfection about so many of those jokes that it probably will never go out of style.
再说一遍，这些笑话中有很多都是柏拉图式的完美，它可能永远不会过时。
But was Larry David the true creative element behind Seinfeld?
但拉里·大卫是《宋飞正传》背后真正的创意元素吗？
I don’t think so because he wasn’t even there for part of it.
我不这么认为，因为他甚至没有参加其中的一部分。
I don’t know, I ride for Jerry more.
我不知道，我更多地为杰瑞骑行。
Coen brothers or Quentin Tarantino?
科恩兄弟还是昆汀·塔伦蒂诺？
The Coen brothers by a million miles.
科恩兄弟相差一百万英里。
There’s almost not a bad Coen brothers movie.
科恩兄弟的电影几乎没有一部糟糕的。
I say it’s like pizza and sex: even when it’s bad, it’s still pretty good.
我说这就像披萨和性：即使很糟糕，它仍然相当不错。
And what’s the best Prince album?
Prince 最好的专辑是什么？
The best Prince album — I’m going to just be generic and say Purple Rain because everything about it is great from beginning to end.
最好的 Prince 专辑——我会笼统地说《Purple Rain》，因为它的一切从头到尾都很棒。
I love side one, but side two drags — for me it’s Sign o’ the Times.
我喜欢第一面，但第二面很拖沓——对我来说，这是《时代的标志》。
Yeah.
是的。
I think I go back to it more, or even the very early albums, the short EP, I forget what it’s called.
我想我会更多地回顾它，甚至是非常早期的专辑，简短的 EP，我忘记了它叫什么。
It may have been the first one.
这可能是第一个。
Okay, well, I’m not a Prince expert.
好吧，我不是王子专家。
On rap music
论说唱音乐
Now, some questions on rap music more directly.
现在，更直接一些关于说唱音乐的问题。
And again, this is drawing on your two wonderful books on rap music — one on West Coast rap, the other on southern rap.
再说一遍，这是借鉴了你关于说唱音乐的两本精彩的书——一本是关于西海岸说唱的，另一本是关于南方说唱的。
Does the concept of authenticity still matter or even exist in rap after so many years?
这么多年后，真实性的概念在说唱中仍然重要吗？甚至还存在吗？
Or is it simply so much of a commercial product that we toss it out the window, and just think of it as like a Taylor Swift pop song?
或者它只是一种商业产品，以至于我们把它扔到窗外，只是把它当作泰勒·斯威夫特的流行歌曲？
No, I think authenticity really does still matter.
不，我认为真实性仍然很重要。
It’s built into the DNA of the music.
它已融入音乐的 DNA 中。
And every time a rapper goes Hollywood, if you will, there’s someone who’s young and hungry, who comes up, who’s come out of poverty, who is not being groomed for stardom at all.
每当说唱歌手进入好莱坞时，如果你愿意的话，都会有一个年轻而饥饿的人，他们脱颖而出，摆脱了贫困，根本没有被培养成明星。
They speak in a language that really resonates with young fans.
他们的语言确实能引起年轻粉丝的共鸣。
And it’s just constantly happening.
而且这种情况一直在发生。
But how can you be transgressive in rap today?
但今天你怎么能在说唱方面越轨呢？
It seems we’ve attained the limits on misogyny, use of various words which I will not name, citations and approval of violence.
看来我们已经达到了厌女症、使用我不会说出的各种词语、引用和认可暴力的极限。
What is there left to do?
还剩下什么可做的呢？
Haven’t we just hyperinflated away all possibilities of shocking people?
我们不是已经过度膨胀，消除了所有令人震惊的可能性吗？
I think that’s a misconception, actually, about hip-hop, is that it’s transgressive.
我认为这实际上是对嘻哈音乐的一种误解，认为它是越界的。
I think it’s a fairly conservative art form at its core.
我认为它的核心是一种相当保守的艺术形式。
There are rules of how you do it; there are even sort of unwritten rules about what you talk about.
如何做是有规则的；关于你谈论的内容甚至有一些不成文的规则。
It’s kind of like mafia movies in a way — there are conventions, and people tend to stick with them.
在某种程度上，这有点像黑手党电影——有惯例，人们倾向于遵守它们。
Does it matter that now Hasbro owns Death Row Records?
现在孩之宝拥有 Death Row Records 有关系吗？
Well, it’s certainly funny, but Death Row Records has long ago ceased being important, so it probably doesn’t matter.
嗯，这确实很有趣，但是 Death Row Records 早已不再重要，所以这可能并不重要。
If you had to pick who’s the most important rapper right now to understanding the rap and hip-hop landscape in 2019, who would you cite and why?
如果您必须选出目前最重要的说唱歌手来了解 2019 年的说唱和嘻哈格局，您会选择谁，为什么？
I would probably still say Kendrick Lamar because everything is so political now, and Kendrick has this amazing ability to appeal both to the kind of marginalized communities and the political muckety-mucks, if you will.
我可能仍然会说肯德里克·拉马尔，因为现在一切都如此政治化，如果你愿意的话，肯德里克有这种惊人的能力来吸引边缘化社区和政治混蛋。
He can speak to everybody.
他可以和每个人说话。
And he pulls it off, which is so hard to do.
他成功了，这是很难做到的。
What has been the political impact of rap, in fact?
事实上，说唱的政治影响是什么？
I think it’s been really profound.
我认为这真的很深刻。
I think that Barack Obama cited rappers and rap lyrics before, and I think it’s brought a voice to these under-served communities that people tend to ignore.
我认为巴拉克·奥巴马之前引用过说唱歌手和说唱歌词，我认为这为这些服务不足的社区带来了人们往往忽视的声音。
In St. Louis, for example, when someone is murdered from the north part of the city, it’s barely even news.
例如，在圣路易斯，当有人在该市北部被谋杀时，这甚至都算不上新闻。
But hip-hop is something that all young people of all races listen to, pretty much, and it brings these messages to a big audience.
但嘻哈音乐几乎是所有种族的所有年轻人都听的东西，它把这些信息传达给了广大观众。
This question is maybe a little difficult to explain, but wherein lies the musical talent of hip-hop?
这个问题或许有点难以解释，但嘻哈的音乐天赋到底在哪里呢？
If we look at Mozart, there’s melody, there’s harmony.
如果我们看莫扎特，就会发现有旋律，有和声。
If you listen to Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring, it’s something very specifically rhythmic, and the textures, and the organization of the blocks of sound.
如果你听斯特拉文斯基的《春之祭》，你会发现它的节奏、质感和声音块的组织都非常特别。
The poetry aside, what is it musically that accounts for the talent in rap music?
抛开诗歌不谈，从音乐角度来说，说唱音乐的才华是什么？
First of all, riding a beat, rapping, if you will, is extremely hard, and anyone who’s ever tried to do it will tell you.
首先，如果你愿意的话，驾驭节奏、说唱是非常困难的，任何曾经尝试过这样做的人都会告诉你。
You have to have the right cadence.
你必须有正确的节奏。
You have to have the right breath control, and it’s a talent.
你必须有正确的呼吸控制，这是一种天赋。
There’s also — this might sound trivial, but picking the right music to rap over.
还有——这可能听起来微不足道，但要选择合适的音乐来说唱。
So hip-hop, of course, is a genre that’s made up of other genres.
当然，嘻哈是一种由其他流派组成的流派。
In the beginning, it was disco records that people used.
最初，人们使用的是迪斯科唱片。
And then jazz, and then on and on.
然后是爵士乐，然后一直持续下去。
Rock records have been rapped over, even.
甚至摇滚唱片也被翻唱过。
But what song are you going to pick to use?
但是您会选择使用哪首歌呢？
And if someone has a good ear for a sound that goes with their style, that’s something you can’t teach.
如果某人对适合其风格的声音有很好的耳朵，那是你无法教的。
So how do you train yourself to be better at rap?
那么如何训练自己在说唱方面做得更好呢？
Say you’re 17, you feel you have some talent.
假设你17岁，你觉得自己有一些天赋。
You decide, “I want to be a rapper.” What is it you go out and do?
你决定，“我想成为一名说唱歌手。”你出去做什么？
Well, the traditional way is through freestyle battling or just freestyling.
嗯，传统的方式是通过自由式战斗或只是自由式。
Just rap about everything you see, always be rapping.
只要说唱你所看到的一切，永远说唱。
But the sad thing is that a lot of people are just never going to get any better.
但可悲的是，很多人永远不会变得更好。
As you point out in your book, aptly titled Original Gangstas, some of the important early West Coast rappers were, in fact, gang members or violent.
正如您在题为“Original Gangstas”的书中所指出的那样，一些重要的早期西海岸说唱歌手实际上是帮派成员或暴力分子。
Or they have not-so-wonderful histories.
或者他们有不那么精彩的历史。
But if rap is a skill that requires a lot of practice, are you saying these were actually high-conscientiousness individuals?
但如果说唱是一项需要大量练习的技能，你是说这些人实际上都是高度认真的人吗？
How does the whole picture fit together?
整个画面如何组合在一起？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
When it comes to NWA, the two main talents in NWA were Dr. Dre and Ice Cube.
说到NWA，NWA的两大天才就是Dr. Dre和Ice Cube。
Both of them not only weren’t in gangs, but their early songs were specifically decrying the gang life.
他们俩不仅不属于帮派，而且他们早期的歌曲都专门谴责帮派生活。
They were mocking gangs and telling people to stay away.
他们嘲笑帮派并告诉人们远离他们。
They were really concerned with their craft, and that’s all they did for fun.
他们真的很关心自己的手艺，这就是他们所做的一切只是为了好玩。
It’s another, I think, misconception about hip-hop music.
我认为这是对嘻哈音乐的另一个误解。
So how hard did they work?
那么他们到底有多努力呢？
They worked incredibly hard.
他们工作非常努力。
It wasn’t work to them.
这对他们来说不是工作。
Dr. Dre just wanted to do nothing but make music all day long.
Dr. Dre 只想整天创作音乐。
What management lessons do you think we can learn from successful hip-hop groups?
您认为我们可以从成功的嘻哈团体中学到哪些管理经验？
I think that just plying your trade on the streets, if you will.
我认为只要你愿意的话，就可以在街上从事你的生意。
Not trying to get a job and be employed by someone else.
不试图找到工作并受雇于别人。
To start your own business right in the area you live.
在您居住的地区开展自己的生意。
Easy-E was also a member of NWA.
Easy-E也是NWA的成员。
He has a cool voice, but he wasn’t superstar talent out of the box.
他的声音很酷，但他并不是天生的超级巨星。
And he didn’t work real hard, right?
而且他并没有真正努力工作，对吧？
He worked on the management side.
他在管理方面工作。
He built NWA, pretty much from scratch.
他几乎是从零开始创建了 NWA。
So that was his great contribution.
所以这是他的伟大贡献。
What management lessons can we learn from the southern rap group Outkast?
我们可以从南方说唱乐队 Outkast 中学到什么管理经验？
And why don’t they exist anymore?
为什么它们不再存在了？
Well, Big Boi would say they still do exist, but Outkast — I think their thing was they just didn’t care what anyone else thought.
好吧，Big Boi 会说他们仍然存在，但是 Outkast——我认为他们的特点是他们不在乎别人的想法。
They didn’t care about the existing business model.
他们不关心现有的商业模式。
They had a vision of what they wanted to do.
他们对自己想做的事情有一个愿景。
They knew there was an audience for it.
他们知道它有观众。
It wasn’t East Coast, it wasn’t West Coast.
这不是东海岸，也不是西海岸。
They wanted to do an Atlanta sound.
他们想做亚特兰大之声。
They wanted something that was tough, but it was also not tough.
他们想要一些坚韧的东西，但也不难。
It was fun and silly, and they just did it.
这既有趣又愚蠢，他们就这么做了。
But they could earn much more money making music together.
但他们一起创作音乐可以赚更多的钱。
Why doesn’t the Coase theorem hold?
为什么科斯定理不成立？
They hate each other too much?
他们太讨厌对方了？
They have other goals?
他们还有其他目标吗？
Model this for me.
给我做这个模型。
It’s a weird thing.
这是一件很奇怪的事情。
I think Big Boi loves André and André is kind of “Eh” sometimes with Big Boi.
我认为大博伊喜欢安德烈，而安德烈有时对大博伊有点“呃”。
André is just the quintessential tortured, creative artist, and he has more money than he needs, and he just doesn’t care about making more.
安德烈是一位典型的饱受折磨、富有创造力的艺术家，他拥有的钱超出了他的需要，但他只是不在乎赚更多钱。
What makes southern rap southern?
是什么让南方说唱变得南方？
Uniquely southern?
南方独有？
To me, it’s the beats.
对我来说，这就是节拍。
When you hear rap from the Northeast, it moves very fast.
当你听到来自东北的说唱时，它的移动速度非常快。
It’s very intellectual.
这是非常有智慧的。
It’s meant for showing off your vocabulary, largely.
它主要是为了展示你的词汇量。
But southern rap is about being on the dance floor.
但南方说唱是关于在舞池上的。
It’s about something when you hear it, you immediately can’t help yourself from going out and dancing.
当你听到它的时候，你会立刻情不自禁地出去跳舞。
And are the underlying sources or influences different?
潜在的来源或影响是否不同？
Where does that distinction come from?
这种区别从何而来？
They are and they aren’t.
他们是，又不是。
There’s a lot of Caribbean influence in both places, but I think it was more the culture of New York versus the culture of, say, Miami, where southern rap started.
这两个地方都有很多加勒比海的影响，但我认为更多的是纽约的文化，而不是南方说唱发源地迈阿密的文化。
And Miami is very influenced by these beach parties, for example.
例如，迈阿密就深受这些海滩派对的影响。
The 2 Live Crew’s Luke Campbell was a DJ at these beach parties, and he just wanted to make people dance, and so started doing everything he could to pull that off.
The 2 Live Crew 的 Luke Campbell 是这些海滩派对的 DJ，他只是想让人们跳舞，因此开始尽一切努力来实现这一目标。
And how are the underlying influences in West Coast rap different?
西海岸说唱的潜在影响有何不同？
West Coast rap comes very much from the culture, also.
西海岸说唱也很大程度上来自文化。
In the mid- to late-80s, there was the crack epidemic.
80年代中后期，出现了快克流行病。
There was the Crips and the Bloods.
还有瘸子帮和血帮。
They had their own sartorial styles, and all of this was sort of consciously infused into the music.
他们有自己的服装风格，所有这些都被有意识地融入到音乐中。
NWA didn’t plan on being an internationally known group.
NWA 并不打算成为国际知名团体。
They wanted to appeal to people in Los Angeles and Compton and in their areas.
他们想吸引洛杉矶和康普顿及其地区的人们。
So that’s what they did.
这就是他们所做的。
Schoolly D, one of my favorites, comes up with an incredibly unique sound, what, in 1987, give or take, yet it seems he was a gangster.
Schoolly D，我的最爱之一，发出了一种令人难以置信的独特声音，在 1987 年，无论给予还是接受，但他似乎是一个黑帮。
Now where did that come from?
那么它是从哪里来的呢？
Are you telling me he was also a high-conscientiousness individual?
你是说他也是一个高度责任心的人吗？
I don’t know his whole biography, like his real, real biography.
我不知道他的整个传记，就像他真实的传记一样。
There’s not that much written about him, but if I had to put money on it, I would suspect that was likely true.
关于他的报道不多，但如果我必须花钱的话，我会怀疑这可能是真的。
In fact, he said that.
事实上，他是这么说的。
He usually didn’t have swear words in his early songs, but the crowds responded to it so well, he started swearing a lot.
他早期的歌曲中通常没有脏话，但观众的反应非常好，他开始经常说脏话。
How did you get access to Dr. Dre for your book?
您是如何联系 Dr. Dre 来获取您的书的？
He donated a lot of money to a new USC program, along with Jimmy Iovine, who was the founder of Interscope.
他与 Interscope 的创始人吉米·艾欧文 (Jimmy Iovine) 一起向南加州大学的一个新项目捐赠了大量资金。
I talked to him under those auspices, and he was very excited and proud.
我在这些主持下与他交谈，他非常兴奋和自豪。
He’s a very shy guy.
他是一个非常害羞的人。
He hates doing interviews, but I got him to open up in this context originally.
他讨厌接受采访，但我最初让他在这种情况下敞开心扉。
And other than being shy, how is he different from what you expected?
除了害羞之外，他与你想象的有什么不同？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I’ve interviewed a lot of musicians, a lot of celebrity musicians over the years.
多年来我采访了很多音乐家，很多名人音乐家。
And they almost all have this natural star shine about them.
他们几乎都有这种天生的明星光芒。
They can talk to you about anything, and you feel excited to be in their presence.
他们可以和你谈论任何事情，你会因为和他们在一起而感到兴奋。
But with Dr. Dre, he was just a wallflower.
但对于德雷博士来说，他只是一个壁花。
Let’s say you have to give an answer — what is the best rap album?
假设你必须给出一个答案——最好的说唱专辑是什么？
Do or die, what’s your pick?
要么死，要么死，你选什么？
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
This is definitely putting me on the spot.
这绝对让我陷入困境。
I would have to say 808s & Heartbreak by Kanye West.
我不得不说 Kanye West 的《808s & Heartbreak》。
Why?
为什么？
It’s, again, unlike anything that existed at the time or since.
再说一遍，它不同于当时或之后存在的任何东西。
It’s a really deceptively deep album.
这是一张非常具有欺骗性的深刻专辑。
It’s about the death of his mother, the dissolution of a relationship.
这是关于他母亲的去世、一段关系的破裂。
And the songs are not only the lyrics, but the sound — there’s a lot of auto-tune, a much-derided technology, but it has this ethereal quality.
这些歌曲不仅是歌词，还有声音——有很多自动调音，这是一项备受嘲笑的技术，但它具有这种空灵的品质。
It stayed with me ever since it came out.
自从它问世以来，它就一直伴随着我。
I still listen to it all the time.
我仍然一直听它。
And what is the best entry point into rap for a rap skeptic, which may not be the same as the best album?
对于说唱怀疑论者来说，进入说唱的最佳切入点是什么，这可能与最佳专辑不同？
And I’m not a rap skeptic, but I know many of them.
我不是说唱怀疑论者，但我认识其中很多人。
Some of our listeners, believe it or not, are rap skeptics.
不管你信不信，我们的一些听众是说唱怀疑论者。
Where should they start?
他们应该从哪里开始？
Well, I think that a lot of people have a problem with the misogyny of hip-hop, which is understandable.
嗯，我认为很多人都对嘻哈音乐的厌女症有疑问，这是可以理解的。
The violence.
暴力。
So I would point them to something like A Tribe Called Quest.
所以我会给他们推荐类似《A Tribe Called Quest》这样的东西。
There’s so much Afrocentric, positive hip-hop out there, especially in the early ’90s, the late ’80s, and De La Soul.
那里有很多以非洲为中心、积极向上的嘻哈音乐，尤其是在 90 年代初、80 年代末和 De La Soul 中。
I would point them in that direction.
我会向他们指出那个方向。
How should we think about the economics of the optimal length of a rap CD, to go back in time just a bit?
我们应该如何考虑说唱 CD 的最佳长度的经济性，让我们回顾一下过去？
The CD era comes along, and there were so many rap CDs that seemed to be 79 minutes and 18 seconds.
CD时代到来了，有很多说唱CD，好像是79分18秒。
Yes.
是的。
And I feel just about all of them are too long.
我觉得它们都太长了。
Why did they do this?
他们为什么这么做？
What is the reasoning?
理由是什么？
I think you’re absolutely right, and I think the skits inflated all those albums.
我认为你是完全正确的，而且我认为这些小品夸大了所有这些专辑。
There was a time in hip-hop where you had to have not just one skit, but lots and lots of skits.
曾经有一段时间，在嘻哈音乐中，你不仅需要一个小品，而且还需要很多很多的小品。
They were very rarely funny.
他们很少有趣。
I think that, in general, shorter is always better when it comes to CDs of any genre.
我认为，总的来说，对于任何类型的 CD 来说，越短越好。
How often do you say, “This CD was too short?” Maybe once in a while.
您多久会说“这张 CD 太短了？”也许偶尔一次。
How often do you say a CD is too long?
您是否经常说 CD 太长？
Very often.
经常。
So maybe the cassette era was better for rap music?
那么也许盒式磁带时代更适合说唱音乐？
That is completely possible.
这是完全有可能的。
The cassettes — it changed everything about the sequencing compared with CDs.
与 CD 相比，磁带改变了测序的一切。
You had to have the number one song be good, and then you had to have the number one song on the other side of the cassette be good.
你必须让第一首歌好听，然后你必须让磁带另一面的第一首歌好听。
If we go back to the very early days of rap music, say the very early 1980s, I think a lot of people at the time figured, “Well, this is a new trend.
如果我们回到说唱音乐的早期，比如 20 世纪 80 年代初，我想当时很多人都会想，“嗯，这是一种新趋势。
It might last five to ten years, or even just three to four years, and then be gone.” Was there anyone who foresaw that come 2019, rap might be the single biggest thing in popular music?
它可能会持续五到十年，甚至三到四年，然后就消失了。”有人预见到 2019 年，说唱可能会成为流行音乐中最重要的事情吗？
There were, yeah.
有，是的。
I think people probably like KRS-One.
我想人们可能喜欢 KRS-One。
A lot of these big boosters in New York saw it, but really, the executives were the ones who dropped the ball.
纽约的许多大人物都看到了这一点，但实际上，那些失败的人是高管。
NWA couldn’t get a record deal, for example, and everyone still thought — this was already the late ’80s — and people still thought this thing was going to peter out any minute.
例如，NWA 无法获得唱片合约，每个人仍然认为——这已经是 80 年代末了——人们仍然认为这件事随时都会消失。
In your account, why hasn’t it exhausted itself?
在你的账户里，为什么还没有耗尽呢？
If it has relatively few dimensions of musical talent — well maintaining the beat, choosing the music to go behind what you’re rapping — why is it still so fresh and vital?
如果它的音乐天赋相对较少——很好地保持节拍，选择音乐来支持你说唱的内容——为什么它仍然如此新鲜和充满活力？
Well, there’s a lot more to it, too.
嗯，还有很多事情要做。
There’s a lot of live music on hip-hop albums, for example, and it certainly is a complex art form.
例如，嘻哈专辑中有很多现场音乐，这无疑是一种复杂的艺术形式。
I think the simplicity, though, is part of its appeal because anyone can be a rapper, for example.
不过，我认为简单性是其吸引力的一部分，因为例如，任何人都可以成为说唱歌手。
Rapping is such a thing anyone can pick up and try, so there’s not a high barrier of entry.
说唱是任何人都可以学会并尝试的事情，因此进入门槛并不高。
People with really interesting things to say can just start doing it and get their music out there.
有真正有趣的事情要说的人可以开始这样做并发布他们的音乐。
So it’s almost like a garage inventor phenomenon.
所以这几乎就像车库发明家现象。
You can do it without needing approval from too many other people, very few veto points.
你可以做到这一点，而不需要太多其他人的批准，很少有否决权。
You’ll get a lot of creativity, so it just mobilizes more creativity.
你会获得很多创造力，所以它只会调动更多的创造力。
Would you accept that hypothesis?
你会接受这个假设吗？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
What’s the musical genre that’s the opposite of that?
与之相反的音乐流派是什么？
I think these days, it’s anything with a string section and maybe anything with a horn section.
我想现在，它是任何带有弦乐部分的东西，也许是任何带有喇叭部分的东西。
I always think about band class at school and the kids who have to lug their instruments back and forth to school.
我总是想起学校里的乐队课，以及那些必须拖着乐器来回学校的孩子们。
The viola, the upright bass, even something like the saxophone — who’s going to want to do this every day?
中提琴、立式贝司，甚至萨克斯管之类的东西——谁会每天都想这样做呢？
I don’t know, that’s one way I think about it.
我不知道，这是我思考这个问题的一种方式。
United States aside, which other countries have the best rap scenes?
除了美国之外，还有哪些国家的说唱场景最好？
I think that there’s some great rap coming out of Nigeria.
我认为尼日利亚有一些很棒的说唱音乐。
There’s Afrobeat, Afropop stuff coming from lots of parts of Africa.
有来自非洲许多地区的非洲节拍、非洲流行音乐。
And I like some different French rappers, too.
我也喜欢一些不同的法国说唱歌手。
I like Algeria and Mexico.
我喜欢阿尔及利亚和墨西哥。
I’m not even sure it’s all still rap anymore, or what that would be.
我什至不确定这仍然是说唱，或者那会是什么。
Yeah, reggaeton and stuff, yeah.
是的，雷鬼音乐之类的，是的。
It all kind of comes together in certain ways.
这一切都以某种方式结合在一起。
If you think about career trajectories for rap stars, I have the casual sense that they don’t last that long.
如果你想想说唱明星的职业轨迹，我有一种不经意的感觉，他们不会持续那么久。
Are there rap stars who just keep on getting better as they age, like Beethoven?
有没有像贝多芬那样随着年龄的增长而不断进步的说唱明星？
Or is that very hard to pull off?
或者说这很难实现？
And if so, why?
如果是这样，为什么？
I haven’t seen a lot of that, but I don’t know why it shouldn’t be the case, though.
我没见过很多这样的情况，但我不知道为什么不应该是这样。
You have blues musicians who undeniably often get better when they age.
不可否认的是，布鲁斯音乐家随着年龄的增长往往会变得更好。
When it comes to rap stars, it tends to be like all the money — as with any celebrities — once you get a lot of yes-men around you, it’s hard to keep your creative edge.
对于说唱明星来说，就像所有名人一样，一旦你周围有很多唯唯诺诺的人，你就很难保持自己的创造力优势。
Is the entourage inefficient?
随行人员效率低下吗？
Should we tax the entourage, discourage it?
我们应该向随行人员征税、劝阻他们吗？
Would the world be a better place if we outlawed the entourage?
如果我们取缔随行人员，世界会变得更美好吗？
No, I’m a fan of the entourage because, for a lot of rappers who get famous — the people who supported them — there’s kind of this implicit agreement that if any of us break big, we’re going to bring the other ones.
不，我是随行人员的粉丝，因为对于很多成名的说唱歌手——支持他们的人来说——有一种隐含的共识，如果我们中的任何一个人取得了巨大的成功，我们就会带动其他人。
And all rappers who have entourages say that they’re basically giving jobs to people who would otherwise be engaged in nefarious behavior in the streets.
所有有随从的说唱歌手都表示，他们基本上是在给那些本来会在街头从事邪恶行为的人提供工作。
How does male versus female taste in rap music differ?
男性和女性对说唱音乐的品味有何不同？
It’s hard to generalize, but part of what I talk about in Dirty South was the reason that southern music — my book about southern rap music, Dirty South — the reason southern music succeeded was that it really focused on women and what they liked.
这很难一概而论，但我在《肮脏的南方》中谈论的部分内容是南方音乐——我关于南方说唱音乐的书《肮脏的南方》——南方音乐成功的原因是它真正关注女性和她们喜欢的东西。
So that tended to be more of these dance-floor songs rather than this rappity-rap-rap sort of mentality.
因此，这往往更多是舞池歌曲，而不是这种说唱说唱的心态。
So that’s been a big factor, I think.
我认为这是一个重要因素。
On dive bars
在潜水酒吧
You also have an early book on dive bars in New York City, correct?
您还有一本关于纽约市潜水酒吧的早期书籍，对吗？
That’s right.
这是正确的。
How did that come about?
这是怎么发生的？
I was doing writing for the Village Voice.
我当时正在为乡村之声写作。
They had these different books about dive bars in different cities, and I signed up to do the one for New York.
他们有关于不同城市的潜水酒吧的不同书籍，我报名为纽约制作一本。
What is now the best borough in New York for dive bars?
现在纽约最好的潜水酒吧区是哪个？
It can’t be Manhattan anymore, right?
它不可能再是曼哈顿了，对吧？
No, I wouldn’t say, although the higher the street number, the more likely you’re going to find a good dive bar with decent-priced drinks.
不，我不会说，尽管街道号码越高，您就越有可能找到一家提供价格合理饮料的优质潜水酒吧。
But I would say Queens.
但我会说皇后区。
Queens has a lot of dive bars that truly are what you would imagine a dive bar to be: Christmas lights, wood paneling, Formica-type bars.
皇后区有很多真正符合您想象的潜水酒吧：圣诞灯、木镶板、福米卡型酒吧。
And things like bar fights — if that’s your scene — can be found aplenty in Queens.
酒吧打架之类的活动（如果您喜欢的话）在皇后区随处可见。
Other than simply wanting to drink, what are, in fact, the reasons to go to a dive bar?
事实上，除了想喝酒之外，去潜水酒吧还有哪些原因呢？
I think it’s just the camaraderie.
我想这只是友情。
If you go to a corporate bar, you’re not going to really feel comfortable chatting up people as much.
如果你去公司酒吧，你就不会那么舒服地与人聊天。
And dive bars — it tends to be regulars from the neighborhood, and it’s like a second family for a lot of people.
还有潜水酒吧——它们往往是附近的常客，对很多人来说就像第二个家庭。
So the model is that it lowers the status expectations for everyone so you can say what you want, be who you want, behave in any way?
所以这个模型是，它降低了每个人的地位期望，这样你就可以说你想说的话，成为你想做的人，以任何方式行事？
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
And that lowers transactions costs.
这降低了交易成本。
I think that is 100 percent true.
我认为这是百分百正确的。
These are decidedly unpretentious places, and that’s part of their DNA.
这些绝对是朴实无华的地方，这是他们 DNA 的一部分。
Why don’t we run more social institutions on that basis?
我们为什么不在这个基础上运行更多的社会机构呢？
Or should we?
或者我们应该？
Why don’t we run podcasts on that basis?
我们为什么不在此基础上运行播客呢？
Like, “Hey, here’s my dive podcast.”
就像，“嘿，这是我的潜水播客。”
Yeah, we probably should.
是的，我们可能应该这样做。
Is there a European equivalent of dive bars?
欧洲有类似的潜水吧吗？
Hmm, that’s a good question.
嗯，这是个好问题。
It seems to me a specifically American thing in a lot of ways because in Europe, they have more beautiful, long-lasting architecture, while in the US, a lot of dive bars are just some shack somewhere.
在我看来，这在很多方面都是美国特有的事情，因为在欧洲，他们有更美丽、更持久的建筑，而在美国，很多潜水酒吧只是某个地方的棚屋。
Is there a Chinese equivalent of dive bars?
中国有类似的潜水酒吧吗？
Undoubtedly.
无疑。
I did not get to see any, though.
但我没有看到任何东西。
On the Ben Westhoff production function
关于 Ben Westhoff 生产函数
For our final segment, just a few questions about the Ben Westhoff production function, if I may.
对于我们的最后一部分，如果可以的话，我想问几个有关本·韦斯特霍夫生产函数的问题。
You wrote a book on fentanyl, and it’s now turned out fentanyl is one of the country’s biggest issues.
你写了一本关于芬太尼的书，现在事实证明芬太尼是这个国家最大的问题之一。
Was this simply luck?
这只是运气吗？
Or did you have actual insight?
或者你有真正的洞察力吗？
And if you had insight, where did that come from?
如果你有洞察力，那它从何而来？
I think it had a lot to do with luck.
我想这和运气有很大关系。
The way I got into the story was writing about these rave drugs that were being adulterated.
我进入这个故事的方式是写这些被掺假的狂欢药物。
And then I found out about China — how these labs were making all these new drugs.
然后我了解了中国——这些实验室是如何制造所有这些新药的。
It wasn’t until I was well into the reporting that I even heard the word fentanyl.
直到我深入报道后，我才听到芬太尼这个词。
And then it just took over the book.
然后它就接管了这本书。
But how did that happen?
但这是怎么发生的呢？
What clicked in your mind?
你想到了什么？
What was that moment like?
那一刻是什么样的？
Well, I was writing about rave dust, and one person out of 60,000 would die at a rave.
好吧，我正在写关于狂欢尘埃的故事，六万人中就会有一个人死于狂欢派对。
And I thought, “Oh, that’s bad.” But then I was hearing that fentanyl…
我想，“哦，那太糟糕了。”但后来我听到芬太尼……
many more people were starting to die.
更多的人开始死亡。
So I was like, “This is a much, much bigger problem.”
所以我想，“这是一个非常非常大的问题。”
Let’s imagine this is a dive podcast.
让我们想象这是一个潜水播客。
What’s the weirdest fact about your childhood that you’re willing to tell us?
您愿意告诉我们的关于您童年的最奇怪的事实是什么？
Weirdest fact about my childhood.
关于我童年的最奇怪的事实。
Well, probably just that my parents had us living this kind of weird, hippie lifestyle, where we never had chocolate.
嗯，可能只是因为我的父母让我们过着这种奇怪的嬉皮生活方式，我们从来没有吃过巧克力。
We never had anything that might be considered delicious food for children.
我们从来没有吃过任何可能被认为是儿童美味的食物。
And we all revolted, and I got so upset about this, I began shoplifting at a very young age from the local college — their little store where they had candy bars.
我们都反抗，我对此感到非常沮丧，我很小的时候就开始从当地大学的小商店里偷东西，那里有糖果。
So I’d like to say my parents drove me to crime.
所以我想说是我的父母驱使我犯罪。
And this was in St. Louis?
这是在圣路易斯吗？
No, this was when I was growing up in Mankato, Minnesota.
不，那是我在明尼苏达州曼凯托长大的时候。
Do American kids watch too much TV?
美国孩子看电视太多了吗？
Yes, I think that they do.
是的，我认为他们确实如此。
There are so many more things to do in life, that TV doesn’t have to be so much of it.
生活中还有很多事情要做，电视不必有那么多。
Let’s say that a very smart 18-year-old comes up to you and says that in some way, they want to follow in your footsteps, to write books on disparate but very interesting and hot topics, like rap music and fentanyl, and they ask you for advice.
假设一个非常聪明的 18 岁年轻人走到你面前，说在某种程度上，他们想追随你的脚步，就不同但非常有趣和热门的话题写书，比如说唱音乐和芬太尼，他们向你寻求建议。
What is it you tell them, other than the obvious, like work hard, be like a rap star?
除了显而易见的，比如努力工作，像说唱明星一样，你告诉他们什么？
Yeah.
是的。
What do you say?
你怎么说？
Just follow what you really want to do and what you’re really interested in.
只要遵循你真正想做的事情和你真正感兴趣的事情即可。
I came up in alternative weeklies, and for how underpaid we were, that was made up for by the fact that we could write about whatever we wanted.
我出现在其他周刊上，虽然我们的工资很低，但我们可以写任何我们想要的东西这一事实弥补了这一点。
We were encouraged to follow our interests, whereas at a daily paper, you might have had a certain beat that you always wrote about every day.
我们被鼓励追随自己的兴趣，而在日报上，你可能每天都会写一些特定的节奏。
And there’s stuff that, just intrinsically, you know more about, that inspires you more, and so again, you want to get to a point where it doesn’t feel like work, like you would be doing this anyway.
从本质上讲，有些东西你了解得更多，能给你更多启发，所以你又想达到一个感觉不像工作的地步，就像你无论如何都会这样做一样。
When I first dreamed of being a writer, I thought I needed all these life experiences.
当我第一次梦想成为一名作家时，我认为我需要所有这些生活经历。
I needed to go running with the bulls, and I needed to maybe be an alcoholic.
我需要与公牛一起奔跑，而且我可能需要成为一个酒鬼。
I just needed to really live.
我只需要真正地生活。
But my feeling on that has shifted a lot.
但我对此的感觉发生了很大变化。
Now I think just the opposite, that there’s plenty of stories out there.
现在我认为恰恰相反，那里有很多故事。
The things to write about are all around you, and you need to discipline yourself, get your health right.
要写的事情就在你身边，你需要约束自己，保持健康。
Like I said, I try to be very careful about what I eat.
就像我说的，我对吃的东西非常小心。
I’m very big on exercise, long distance running, yoga, getting my body right, getting enough sleep every night.
我非常喜欢锻炼、长跑、瑜伽、调整身体、每晚保证充足的睡眠。
It’s not glamorous, but I feel like it benefits my work a lot.
它并不迷人，但我觉得它对我的工作有很大好处。
So you’re a big believer in practice?
所以你非常相信实践？
Yeah.
是的。
What do you do to practice writing, to become a better writer?
为了成为一名更好的作家，你会做什么来练习写作？
Obviously, you write, but what else can you do?
显然，你写了，但你还能做什么呢？
This is part of that, but just journaling.
这是其中的一部分，但只是日记。
When people think about writing, they think, “Oh, I have to write a profound short story.” But I always say, “No, just write everything that’s happening to you.” Nonfiction, to me, from the average writer, from the entry-level writer is almost always a thousand times more interesting than some fiction they’re writing.
当人们想到写作时，他们会想：“哦，我必须写一个深刻的短篇小说。”但我总是说，“不，只写下发生在你身上的一切。”对我来说，普通作家、入门级作家的非小说类作品几乎总是比他们写的小说有趣一千倍。
Do you love book tour?
你喜欢读书之旅吗？
Do I love book tour?
我喜欢售书之旅吗？
I’m very grateful to be on book tour.
我非常感谢能够参加巡回售书活动。
The food is difficult, it’s kind of a grind, but I am certainly happy to be here on this podcast.
食物很难吃，有点辛苦，但我很高兴能参加这个播客。
And last question: do you have any sense what your next book might be, if you’re allowed to tell us?
最后一个问题：如果您可以告诉我们，您知道您的下一本书可能是什么吗？
I think it’s going to be about the murder of my little brother from the Big Brothers Big Sisters program.
我认为这将是关于《老大哥大姐妹》节目中我弟弟被谋杀的故事。
His name was Jorell Cleveland, and in 2016, he was murdered.
他的名字叫乔雷尔·克利夫兰，2016 年被谋杀。
He lived in Ferguson, and the murder is still unsolved, so I want to find out what happened that led to his demise.
他住在弗格森，而谋杀案仍然悬而未决，所以我想查明到底发生了什么导致了他的死亡。
Wow.
哇。
Ben Westhoff, thank you very much.
本·韦斯特霍夫，非常感谢你。
Well, thank you.
嗯，谢谢。