Ben Sasse on the Space between Nebraska and Neverland (Ep. 25 - Live at Mason)
Ben is from Fremont, and he is a fifth-generation Nebraskan.
本来自弗里蒙特，是第五代内布拉斯加人。
Just to be clear, this is the conversation I want to have with Ben Sasse, not the one you want to have.
需要澄清的是，这是我想与 Ben Sasse 进行的对话，而不是您想要进行的对话。
Ben Sasse: I thought I was interviewing you on The Complacent Class.
本·萨斯：我以为我是在《自满阶级》节目中采访你。
Is that wrong?
这是错误的吗？
That’s wrong.
那是错误的。
On Nebraska
在内布拉斯加州
So I’m interested in Nebraska.
所以我对内布拉斯加州很感兴趣。
As all freedom-loving people should be.
所有热爱自由的人都应该如此。
Exactly.
确切地。
I’ve been to both states — they have almost an identical per capita income, median income, age structure, demographics.
我去过这两个州——他们的人均收入、收入中位数、年龄结构、人口统计数据几乎相同。
Yet when I’m in Kansas and Nebraska, they feel to me like very different states.
然而，当我在堪萨斯州和内布拉斯加州时，我觉得它们是非常不同的州。
How would you describe that difference, and where do you think it comes from?
您如何描述这种差异？您认为它从何而来？
When I was a kid, the joke was, if you go back to Kansas, you have to set your watch back 24 hours — 24 years.
当我还是个孩子的时候，有一个笑话是，如果你回到堪萨斯，你必须把手表拨回 24 小时——24 年。
Ahhh, I ruined the joke.
啊哈，我毁了这个笑话。
My dad is going to be so disappointed.
我爸爸一定会很失望的。
I didn’t know you were going to ask that.
我不知道你会问这个。
I have no idea what the difference is.
我不知道有什么区别。
They have a lot of wheat; we don’t have a lot of wheat.
他们有很多小麦；我们没有很多小麦。
So it’s alfalfa versus wheat.
这是苜蓿与小麦的对比。
We have corn, beans, and we’re the largest cattle state in the union.
我们有玉米、豆类，而且我们是美国最大的养牛州。
Willa Cather said you’re a newer state.
威拉·凯瑟说你们是一个较新的州。
John Gunther says you’re a state with fewer do-gooders.
约翰·冈瑟 (John Gunther) 说，你们州的行善者较少。
It seems you have more northern European immigrants, very different history with slavery, and Kansas is more dependent on Missouri.
看来你有更多的北欧移民，奴隶制的历史截然不同，而且堪萨斯州更依赖密苏里州。
And somehow when you stack those up, you have two states, each very independent in its outlook.
不知何故，当你把这些叠加起来时，你就会发现两个州，每个州的观点都非常独立。
Nebraska to me feels more progressive and almost, in a way, ornery — in a positive way, ornery.
对我来说，内布拉斯加州感觉更加进步，而且在某种程度上，几乎是脾气暴躁——从积极的角度来说，脾气暴躁。
We’d have to define both progressive and ornery, but I think your list, just the fact that they’re Missouri-dependent, and we’re not Iowa-dependent, means we win.
我们必须定义进步和暴躁，但我认为你的名单，只要他们依赖密苏里州，而我们不依赖爱荷华州，就意味着我们赢了。
You win.
你赢了。
Cultural appropriation.
文化拨款。
Bruce Springsteen, he’s done this album called Nebraska, but once he starts singing, it’s actually all about New Jersey.
布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀（Bruce Springsteen）制作了这张名为《内布拉斯加》（Nebraska）的专辑，但一旦他开始唱歌，实际上一切都是关于新泽西的。
It’s about Mahwah —
这是关于莫瓦的——
The turnpike, the wee, wee hours; there’s a mention of the word bleak — and then he goes back to New Jersey.
收费公路，凌晨，凌晨；提到了“黯淡”这个词——然后他回到了新泽西。
Are you offended?
你生气了吗？
I think we should let Tyler monologue for a while.
我认为我们应该让泰勒独白一段时间。
This is good stuff, and I don’t think I’m going to add a lot of value here.
这是好东西，我不认为我会在这里增加很多价值。
Just keep going.
继续吧。
Here’s what else to me is striking about Nebraska, and as a fifth-generation, you might have insight into it.
以下是内布拉斯加州对我来说最引人注目的地方，作为第五代人，你可能会对它有深入的了解。
There’s a certain generation of performers, and so many of my favorites come from Nebraska: Fred Astaire, Johnny Carson, James Coburn — tough guy, incredible actor — Marlon Brando, and finally, Henry Fonda, who we might think of as grandpa on Golden Pond, but the young Henry Fonda was a bit more like James Coburn: tough guy, very strong, lots of charisma.
有一代表演者，我最喜欢的很多人都来自内布拉斯加州：弗雷德·阿斯泰尔、约翰尼·卡森、詹姆斯·科伯恩——“硬汉、令人难以置信的演员”——“马龙·白兰度”，最后是亨利·方达，我们可能会认为他是金池塘的爷爷，但年轻的亨利·方达有点像詹姆斯·科伯恩：硬汉，非常坚强，很有魅力。
James Baldwin admired him greatly.
詹姆斯·鲍德温非常钦佩他。
So what is it about Nebraska that has produced this stream of charismatic men?
那么，内布拉斯加州究竟为何孕育出如此富有魅力的男士呢？
I don’t know, but let’s be clear that Kansas doesn’t have that list.
我不知道，但我们要明确的是，堪萨斯州没有这份名单。
Another striking feature of Nebraska — I’m sure you’re familiar with it — you’re the only state —
内布拉斯加州的另一个显着特征 —— 我相信你对它很熟悉 —— 你是唯一的州——
President Cabrera made it clear that you do your homework, and I just want to say that he’s right.
卡布雷拉总统明确表示，你要做足功课，我只想说他是对的。
You’re the only state that has a single legislature, right?
你们是唯一拥有单一立法机构的州，对吧？
We are.
我们是。
And that dates from 1937.
这要追溯到 1937 年。
George Norris, who was a great senator from Nebraska, not exactly my politics but a smart, very driven man, very independent, always independent of his party — that’s a longstanding Nebraska tradition.
乔治·诺里斯是一位来自内布拉斯加州的伟大参议员，虽然不完全是我的政治观点，但他是一个聪明、非常有动力的人，非常独立，始终独立于他的政党——这是内布拉斯加州的长期传统。
But what’s your view on the notion of having a single legislature at the state level?
但是您对在州一级设立单一立法机构的概念有何看法？
It’s an interesting option that more states should consider.
这是一个有趣的选择，更多的州应该考虑。
There are pros and cons, but we are not just a unicameral as opposed to bicameral legislature.
有利有弊，但我们不仅仅是一院制立法机构，而是两院制立法机构。
We’re also nonpartisan.
我们也是无党派的。
Our legislature meets five months one year and three months the off year, basically whether or not it’s a budget year.
我们的立法机关每年开会五个月，次年开会三个月，基本上无论是否是预算年。
The culture of the state senator, the state legislature is really different than most legislative bodies across the US.
州参议员、州立法机构的文化与美国大多数立法机构确实不同。
There are 99 of them.
其中有 99 个。
We have one, and all the other 49 states have two each.
我们有一个，其他 49 个州各有两个。
Because it’s a nonpartisan unicameral with no caucusing — officially it’s about 2 to 1, Republican to Democrat, if you actually had everyone declare their affiliation — but the culture of the place allows different kinds of coalitions to emerge.
因为这是一个无党派的一院制，没有预选会议 ——官方的比例大约是 2 比 1，共和党对民主党，如果你真的让每个人都声明自己的隶属关系的话 ——但这个地方的文化允许出现不同类型的联盟。
I believe strongly in the separation of powers and in the decentralization impulses of our founders to divide power both vertically and horizontally.
我坚信权力分立以及我们的创始人垂直和水平划分权力的权力下放冲动。
But there’s no obvious reason why state legislatures should need to mirror what the federal legislature does.
但没有明显的理由说明为什么州立法机构需要效仿联邦立法机构的做法。
So I think more states should consider a unicameral, and even a nonpartisan unicameral, structure.
因此，我认为更多的州应该考虑一院制，甚至是无党派的一院制结构。
George Norris’s original case for a unicameral legislature: he hated what he called the “conference committees,” that the two houses would each have a version of a bill.
乔治·诺里斯最初主张一院制立法机构：他讨厌他所谓的“会议委员会”，即两院各有一个版本的法案。
Then a time would come when the two versions had to be reconciled, and then, in his view, the voters would disappear.
然后，两个版本必须得到调和的时候就会到来，然后，在他看来，选民就会消失。
Deliberations would take place secretly, and this was what Nebraska needed to abolish.
审议将秘密进行，而这正是内布拉斯加州需要废除的。
How does that analysis seem to you now that there’s many years of experience with a single unicameral legislature?
鉴于拥有多年单一一院制立法机构的经验，您对这一分析有何看法？
Yeah, George Norris had a bunch of different transparency impulses, the vast majority of which are good.
是的，乔治·诺里斯有很多不同的透明度冲动，其中绝大多数都是好的。
Some of them are complicating.
其中一些使情况变得复杂。
So, all public searches in Nebraska are supposed to be declared.
因此，内布拉斯加州的所有公共搜查都应该公布。
Well, when you’re searching for a new president of a university system, that changes the culture quite a lot in ways that takes away a whole bunch of candidates.
好吧，当你在大学系统中寻找一位新校长时，这会极大地改变文化，从而带走一大批候选人。
When President Cabrera mentioned George Mason becoming the 67th R1 research university in the country, if you are just hypothetically speaking — I’m not naming where Nebraska falls in that pecking order — but if you’re research university 30 in the country, and you want to get a new president, and maybe you think you should reach up, and there’s a reason why person leading institution 20 should be at Nebraska.
当卡布雷拉校长提到乔治·梅森大学成为美国第 67 所 R1 研究型大学时，如果你只是假设性的 ——“我没有说出内布拉斯加州在这个等级中的位置”—— 但是如果你是全国排名第 30 的研究型大学，并且你想要一位新校长，也许你认为你应该向上，那么领导 20 所大学的人应该在内布拉斯加州，这是有原因的。
Or a person at university 40, who may think that he or she has a shot to lead a top-10 institution, and you’re the 30th institution, you want to go grab them.
或者一个40岁的大学人，他或她可能认为他或她有机会领导排名前10的机构，而你是第30个机构，你想去抓住他们。
Most people are not going to be a party to a search where they might publicly lose.
大多数人都不会参与可能会公开失败的搜索活动。
So if you have a lot of opportunities in life, the impulse toward transparency in executive search is not always a great impulse.
因此，如果你的生活中有很多机会，那么在猎头过程中追求透明度的冲动并不总是很大。
But the vast majority of what Norris wanted to accomplish with shining a spotlight on conference committees, I think he’s been right about a lot of that.
但诺里斯希望通过让会议委员会受到关注来实现的绝大多数目标，我认为他在很多方面都是正确的。
On the many counties of Nebraska
在内布拉斯加州的许多县
Something else striking about Nebraska — a lot of states in the Midwest and the whole country — the country’s now well into economic recovery, but small towns, let’s say, below 15,000 population, are often having trouble with some of this across the country.
内布拉斯加州还有一个引人注目的地方——“中西部的许多州和整个国家”——“该国现在已经进入经济复苏阶段，但全国各地的小城镇，比如说人口低于 15,000 人的城镇，经常遇到一些麻烦。
I’m not asking you about particular policies, but conceptually, as a Nebraskan, what is it you feel you understand about this process of rebuilding, or maybe even shuttering up, a declining small town that the rest of us here may not understand as well?
我不是问你具体的政策，但从概念上讲，作为一个内布拉斯加人，你觉得你对这个重建甚至关闭一个正在衰落的小镇的过程有什么理解，而我们这里的其他人可能也不理解？
What wisdom could you carry to us on this?
在这方面您能向我们传达什么智慧？
Wisdom’s too big of a word, but at the level of analytics, we’re not thinking at all, or we’re not thinking nearly aggressively enough about what’s happening as we transition from what I think of as the third-stage economy — industrialization — to this fourth-stage economy, where you’ve gone from hunter-gatherers to agrarianism to industrialization, mass urbanization, mass immigration to this new thing, which we don’t even know how to talk about yet.
智慧这个词太大了，但在分析层面，我们根本没有思考，或者我们没有足够积极地思考，当我们从我所认为的第三阶段经济——工业化——过渡到第四阶段经济时，你已经从狩猎采集社会过渡到农耕主义，再到工业化、大规模城市化、大规模移民，再到我们不知道的新事物。偶还不知道怎么聊呢。
We don’t have a real name for it.
我们没有它的真实名字。
The “postindustrial economy” is the way of throwing in the towel and saying we don’t know what to call this thing, that is, the IT economy, the service economy, the mobile economy, the digital economy.
“后工业经济”就是认输的方式，说我们不知道该怎么称呼这个东西，就是IT经济、服务经济、移动经济、数字经济。
It’s useful to map those economics on top of local community neighborhoods.
在当地社区的基础上绘制这些经济图是很有用的。
You had nomads, you had villages, you had urban ethnic neighborhoods, and you have whatever this suburbia-exurbia-mobile thing is.
你有游牧民族，你有村庄，你有城市民族社区，你有任何这种郊区-远郊-移动的东西。
Lots and lots of our problems are that we don’t know what human capital is going to look like in this fourth stage.
我们的很多问题是我们不知道第四阶段的人力资本会是什么样子。
When you look at a state like mine, it’s a little easier to see what that transition looks like — I mean see what the disruption looks like, not transition, because that implies we know where we’re headed, and we don’t.
当你观察像我这样的州时，会更容易看到这种转变是什么样子 —— 我的意思是看到破坏是什么样子，而不是转变，因为这意味着我们知道我们要去哪里，但我们不知道。
Nebraska is 93 counties.
内布拉斯加州有 93 个县。
Long ago before I was a politician — I’m one of five people in the Senate who’s never been a politician before.
很久以前，在我成为一名政治家之前 —— 我是参议院中五个从未当过政治家的人之一。
I’ve never run for anything until I did this, and I used to feel really free to just say whatever I thought, even when I thought it was witty, regardless if it would get me in trouble.
在我这样做之前，我从来没有为任何事情而竞选过，而且我过去常常觉得自己可以随意说出自己的想法，即使我认为这很诙谐，也不管这是否会给我带来麻烦。
And I used to joke that we have 93 counties in Nebraska and 12 of them have people.
我曾经开玩笑说，内布拉斯加州有 93 个县，其中 12 个县有人。
It turns out people from the other 81 counties don’t like that kind of joke.
原来，其他81个县的人都不喜欢这种笑话。
I’m from one of those places, and it’s fun to think you’re from a place that has 80 head of cattle per person.
我来自其中一个地方，想到你来自一个人均拥有 80 头牛的地方，这很有趣。
When you parse Nebraska’s 1.9 million people, we have 750,000 basically in metro Omaha, we have 250,000 in Lincoln and a few small towns that it’s swallowing up, and the vast majority of the rest of the state is essentially built along a spine on I-80 or on the Platte River, where you have 25,000-person towns that are where the meat-packing plant is, where the truck dealership is, where the tractor dealership is, where the grain elevator is.
当你分析内布拉斯加州的 190 万人口时，我们有 750,000 人基本上在奥马哈都会区，我们有 250,000 人在林肯和一些被它吞并的小镇，而该州的其余大部分地区基本上是沿着 80 号州际公路或普拉特河的脊柱建造的，那里有 25,000 人的城镇，那里有肉类包装厂，有卡车经销商。就是，拖拉机经销店在哪里，谷物升降机就在哪里。
There’s a regional hospital in most of these 25,000-person towns.
这些拥有 25,000 人的城镇中的大多数都设有地区医院。
That’s basically the scale, and then all the other places are much, much smaller.
基本上就是这个规模，然后所有其他地方都小得多。
The third-largest city in Nebraska, we often joke, is the University of Nebraska–Lincoln football stadium on game day, when we have 95,000 people.
我们经常开玩笑说，内布拉斯加州的第三大城市是比赛当天的内布拉斯加大学林肯足球场，当时我们有 95,000 人。
But you fall from there to we have a 40,000-person town, then a bunch of 25,000s, and then these communities under 5,000.
但从那里开始，我们有一个 40,000 人的城镇，然后是一群 25,000 人，然后是这些人口不到 5,000 人的社区。
The vast majority of counties in Nebraska right now are rapidly shrinking, but we don’t understand how much they’re shrinking because we’re unable to account for the age migration inside the county.
目前内布拉斯加州绝大多数县正在迅速缩小，但我们不知道它们缩小了多少，因为我们无法解释县内的年龄迁移。
In most of our counties, again 70-plus of 93, that are shrinking, the county seat is actually growing, so think about that.
在我们的大多数县中，93 个县中有 70 多个县正在缩小，但县城实际上在扩大，所以想一想。
The county’s shrinking but the county seat is growing.
县城在缩小，但县城却在扩大。
What’s really happening is 65-, 70-, and 75-year-old farmers are moving to the town where they go out to dinner, or where they play golf, or where the assisted-living facilities are because they’re going to age and they’re going to retire in the community they’re from.
真正发生的情况是，65 岁、70 岁和 75 岁的农民正在搬到城镇，在那里他们出去吃饭，或者打高尔夫球，或者有辅助生活设施，因为他们即将变老，并且将在他们来自的社区退休。
But technological substitution for labor on these farms is that — other than the breadbasket of the world — we’re getting more and more agricultural productivity out of these counties than ever before in human history, but with rapidly diminishing labor inputs.
但这些农场对劳动力的技术替代是：“除了世界的粮仓之外，我们从这些国家获得的农业生产力比人类历史上任何时候都多，但劳动力投入却在迅速减少。”
I don’t think we’ve given much thought at all to what it looks like to think about these towns when you go from being a class B or a class C school to being a place that might not have many kids at all.
我认为我们根本没有考虑过当你从 B 级或 C 级学校变成一个可能根本没有多少孩子的地方时，这些城镇会是什么样子。
I don’t think we’re thinking about the ex-urbanization of America as a reclustering around 100 to 250 towns in the country, or cities, but that’s really a lot of what’s happening right now.
我不认为我们将美国的远城市化视为全国 100 至 250 个城镇或城市的重新聚集，但这确实是目前正在发生的很多事情。
So there’s no wisdom there, but there’s analytics because you can see a lot of places in Nebraska that are rapidly going to shrink when this generation dies.
所以那里没有智慧，但有分析，因为你可以看到内布拉斯加州的很多地方在这一代人去世后会迅速萎缩。
You have a PhD in history from Yale University, American history, and I’m sure you’re familiar with Frederick Jackson Turner.
您拥有耶鲁大学历史学博士学位，美国历史，我相信您熟悉弗雷德里克·杰克逊·特纳。
This idea of a Turner thesis: America being shaped by its interaction with the frontier.
特纳论文的观点是：美国是通过与边境的互动而形成的。
In the physical sense, that frontier would appear to be closed; we’re not in the middle of the space race anymore.
从物理意义上来说，这个边界似乎是封闭的。我们不再处于太空竞赛之中。
What today do you see as the American frontier that’s still shaping our dynamism?
今天，您认为仍在塑造我们活力的美国边境是什么？
Here I could tap this guy named Tyler Cowen who has an interesting new book about a lot of our sapped dynamism at the present moment.
在这里，我可以联系一下这个叫泰勒·考恩的人，他有一本有趣的新书，讲述了我们目前被削弱的活力。
I think the absence of a clearly defined set of strategic choices around the next frontier is one of the things that leads to a real worry about declining ambition for lots of folks.
我认为，围绕下一个前沿领域缺乏一套明确定义的战略选择是导致许多人真正担心雄心壮志下降的原因之一。
So I’m mixed on the Turner thesis but the idea of a frontier .
所以我对特纳的论文很困惑，但对前沿的想法却很困惑。
.
。
.
。
David Brooks has done some really interesting stuff, talking about the way Americans have historically looked to the future in ways that there’s clearly a transition happening right now, where there’s enough worry that we have a lot of looking to the past.
大卫·布鲁克斯做了一些非常有趣的事情，谈论了美国人历史上看待未来的方式，现在显然正在发生转变，有足够的担忧，我们对过去有很多展望。
The way we talk about deindustrialization is a pretty good example.
我们谈论去工业化的方式就是一个很好的例子。
The vast majority of transformation of industrial economy jobs is because of technology, and we’re pretending it’s because of trade because it’s easier to come up with a way to try to demonize somebody.
工业经济就业岗位的绝大多数转变是由于技术，而我们假装这是由于贸易，因为更容易想出一种方法来妖魔化某人。
I worry that there’s not enough looking to the future, and we need a lot more shared vision about what those big opportunities of things we can build together are.
我担心人们对未来的展望还不够，我们需要更多的共同愿景来了解我们可以共同创造的巨大机会是什么。
On Sasse’s dissertation
论萨斯的论文
I think it’s 2004 when you finished Yale and your dissertation.
我想你是在 2004 年完成了耶鲁大学学业并完成了你的论文。
There’s a copy of it here, which I enjoyed reading.
这里有一份它的副本，我很喜欢阅读。
You did not.
你没有。
Did you really?
你真的吗？
My goodness, I’m sorry.
天哪，对不起。
Like every grad student, I wrote a 520-page dissertation because I didn’t have time to write a 220-page dissertation.
像每个研究生一样，我写了一篇 520 页的论文，因为我没有时间写 220 页的论文。
That thing is woefully under-edited.
那件事的编辑严重不足。
Sorry, brother.
对不起，兄弟。
But it won two prizes.
但它获得了两个奖项。
I know you don’t have perfect recall of all of the details, but if you could give us a very broad sense —
我知道你不能完全记住所有细节，但如果你能给我们一个非常广泛的了解——
I do not recall.
我不记得了。
— of what you wrote on.
—— 你写的东西。
Even the field your degree was in.
甚至你的学位所在的领域。
Well, thank you for giving me lots of room to talk.
嗯，谢谢你给了我很多说话的空间。
I wrote on the realignment of domestic politics, 1950 to 1980, in light of the Cold War.
我写了一篇关于 1950 年至 1980 年冷战期间国内政治调整的文章。
The title is something like “The Anti-Madalyn Majority:” (named from Madalyn Murray O’Hair) “Secular Left, Religious Right, and the Rise of Reagan’s America.”
标题有点像“反玛德琳多数派：”（取自玛德琳·默里·奥海尔）“世俗左派、宗教右派和里根美国的崛起”。
The realignment of social conservatives and a lot of old Democrats into the Republican party, particularly in the South and in the Midwest, had many, many factors that drove it.
社会保守派和许多老民主党人重新加入共和党，特别是在南方和中西部，有很多很多因素推动。
If you listen to academic historians, usually, the story is very quickly reducible to one factor and one factor alone and that’s backlash against the civil rights movement.
如果你听学术历史学家的话，通常情况下，这个故事很快就会被简化为一个因素，而且只有一个因素，那就是对民权运动的强烈抵制。
There’s a whole bunch of structural and personal racism in America that needs to be confronted, and some of the realignment does relate to backlash of civil rights movement, but the story is actually lots more complicated than that.
美国存在大量的结构性和个人种族主义需要面对，其中一些调整确实与民权运动的强烈反对有关，但故事实际上比这复杂得多。
I don’t think we’ve done a good job of understanding our present moment and how we got to this place by understanding that, in the Cold War, grassroots America looked at Soviet communist expansionism as a threat, not just because of centrally planned economics, but because of a fear that Soviet atheism was going to be enforced in certain kinds of ways that might expand into the world and, ultimately, forcibly secularize lots of different institutions in American life.
我认为我们并没有很好地理解我们的现状，以及我们是如何走到这一步的：在冷战期间，美国的草根阶层将苏联共产主义扩张主义视为威胁，这不仅是因为中央计划经济，而且是因为担心苏联无神论将以某些可能扩展到世界各地的方式得到强化，并最终强行将美国生活中的许多不同机构世俗化。
For instance, one of the chapters in my thesis is about a letter-writing campaign to the FCC in the 1960s and 1970s that is arguably the largest letter-writing campaign in the history of the English language, that almost nobody knows anything about.
例如，我论文中的一章是关于 20 世纪 60 年代和 1970 年代向 FCC 发起的写信活动，这可以说是英语历史上规模最大的写信活动，但几乎没有人对此一无所知。
More than 30 million people — Americans — wrote letters to the FCC to protest the fact that Madalyn Murray O’Hair was going to get religious broadcasting declared illegal in America.
超过 3000 万人——“美国人”——写信给 FCC，抗议 Madalyn Murray O'Hair 将在美国宣布宗教广播为非法。
There was actually no such effort.
事实上并没有这样的努力。
There was no Madalyn Murray O’Hair.
没有玛德琳·默里·奥海尔。
The FCC was never considering making religious broadcasting illegal, and yet, the ways that people came to believe that that might be true and the way this conspiracy theory took root and led 30-plus million people to write letters, relates to the way school prayer prohibition came about in the Supreme Court decisions of 1962, 1963, and that has to do with a different interpretation of the Establishment Clause than the way Americans had understood the Establishment Clause if you read First Amendment before the 14th Amendment tries to incorporate it, not just against “Congress shall make no law,” but states and localities and local school districts can’t as well.
FCC 从未考虑过将宗教广播定为非法，然而，人们开始相信这可能是真的的方式，以及这种阴谋论扎根并导致 30 多人写信的方式，与 1962 年、1963 年最高法院判决中禁止学校祈祷的方式有关，这与对政教分离条款的不同解释有关，而不是美国人在第 14 条之前阅读第一修正案时对政教分离条款的理解。修正案试图将其纳入其中，不仅反对“国会不得制定法律”，而且各州、地方和当地学区也不能这样做。
There’s a whole bunch of stuff that happened in American life in the 1950s, ’60s, and ’70s that’s really quite interesting and was scary to lots and lots of people.
20 世纪 50 年代、60 年代和 70 年代的美国人生活中发生了很多事情，这些事情对很多人来说真的很有趣，也很可怕。
And I personally have no interest in prayer to the unknown God in schools in the 1960s for theological reasons, particular commitments that I have.
出于神学原因和我的特殊承诺，我个人对 20 世纪 60 年代学校里向未知的上帝祈祷没有兴趣。
Abstractions about that don’t interest me very much, but I have lots of sympathy for why people thought forces well beyond their control were making decisions that affected the local.
我对此不太感兴趣，但我非常同情为什么人们认为远远超出他们控制范围的力量正在做出影响当地的决定。
So I think the realignment that ultimately came to full fruit in 1980 has lots of variables that we have to understand against the backdrop of international understandings the Cold War brought home to local communities in the US.
因此，我认为最终在 1980 年取得丰硕成果的重组有很多变数，我们必须在冷战给美国当地社区带来的国际理解的背景下理解这些变数。
You also show a lot of that realignment had come as early as 1972.
您还表明，很多调整早在 1972 年就已发生。
So the Southern Strategy, Catholics lining up behind the Republicans, and that year Nixon, that was earlier than people thought and that was tied into religious issues.
因此，南方战略、天主教徒站在共和党后面，以及那一年的尼克松，比人们想象的要早，而且与宗教问题有关。
Right.
正确的。
Before you leave that, I just want to say — because a lot of the stuff that we might talk about later tonight — I think the 1960s still produced a hangover for almost every fight we have today.
在你离开之前，我只想说 —— 因为今晚晚些时候我们可能会讨论很多事情 —— 我认为 1960 年代仍然给我们今天的几乎每一场战斗带来了后遗症。
If you think about the long 1960s, it is amazing.
如果你回想一下漫长的 20 世纪 60 年代，那真是太神奇了。
There have only been four truly gigantic landslides in the history of presidential politics in America.
美国总统政治历史上只有四次真正意义上的巨大压倒性胜利。
I’m defining a big landslide as somebody winning more than 60 percent of the popular vote.
我将“大压倒性”定义为某人赢得超过 60% 的普选票。
That’s only happened four times in US history, but two of them were LBJ in ’64 and then Nixon in ’72.
这种情况在美国历史上只发生过四次，其中两次是 64 年的林登·约翰逊和 72 年的尼克松。
That swing in eight years from a landslide one way to a landslide the other is really amazing, and you could only understand that if you understand how disruptive the 1960s were in community after community across the US.
八年时间里从一种滑坡到另一种滑坡的转变确实令人惊奇，只有了解 20 世纪 60 年代对美国各个社区造成的破坏性，你才能理解这一点。