Barkha Dutt on the Nuances of Indian Life (Ep. 153)

These are valid questions.

这些都是有效的问题。

Many of them are raised by journalists like myself, but they do not tell the full story of a complex, paradoxical nation, where there are multiple simultaneous truths.

其中许多是由像我这样的记者提出的，但它们并没有讲述一个复杂、自相矛盾的国家的完整故事，这个国家同时存在多个真相。

Therefore, I think that Indians are sometimes exasperated by the simplistic, reductionist understanding of our very complicated, 1.3 billion-strong nation.

因此，我认为印度人有时会对我们这个拥有 13 亿人口的非常复杂的国家的简单化、还原主义的理解感到愤怒。

I think there’s also a sense that there have been some great foreign correspondents, and I’d like to name two who have done stellar work on India: Ellen Barry of the New York Times and Annie Gowen of the Washington Post.

我认为还有一种感觉，那就是存在着一些伟大的外国记者，我想举出两位在印度问题上做出出色工作的人：《纽约时报》的艾伦·巴里和《华盛顿邮报》的安妮·高文。

Both made it a point to do very, very textured reportage out of India.

两人都强调要在印度制作非常非常有质感的报告文学。

But those are individuals I’m naming, and not platforms.

但我指的是个人，而不是平台。

I don’t think that there is a platform that really captures the nuances and the texture of my country in full.

我认为没有一个平台能够真正全面捕捉我国的细微差别和肌理。

When I studied at Columbia, at the Journalism School, I had a flatmate — I think I write about this in the same book — who assumed that because I was an Indian woman, I would have an arranged marriage, I would have no rights, I wouldn’t be outspoken.

当我在哥伦比亚大学新闻学院学习时，我有一个室友 ——我想我在同一本书中写到了这一点——他认为因为我是一名印度女性，我就会有包办婚姻，我不会有任何权利，我不会直言不讳。

Then when we got to know each other better, I found that the Western rituals of the dating scene were often much more patriarchal than anything I’d experienced.

然后，当我们更加了解彼此时，我发现西方约会场景的仪式往往比我经历过的任何事情都更加重男轻女。

That said, of course, I have grown up and resisted entrenched patriarchy, entrenched misogyny.

当然，话虽如此，我已经长大并抵制根深蒂固的父权制和根深蒂固的厌女症。

The expectations of what it means to be female in India come out in a very insidious, everyday way.

对印度女性意味着什么的期望以一种非常隐蔽的、日常的方式表现出来。

You know the big things, right?

你知道大事，对吗？

You know about where the public spaces are safe or not safe for women.

您知道哪些公共场所对女性来说安全或不安全。

We had the infamous Nirbhaya gang rape in Delhi, the capital of India.

印度首都德里发生了臭名昭著的尼尔巴亚轮奸案。

Gang rape of a 23-year-old medical student that brought hundreds of thousands of Indians on the streets to protest.

一名 23 岁医学生遭轮奸，导致数十万印度人走上街头抗议。

There is sexual violence within the circle of trust; there is the refusal to legalize marital rape.

信任圈内存在性暴力；拒绝将婚内强奸合法化。

Those are all the big examples, but it’s the small examples that really get under my skin.

这些都是大例子，但真正让我恼火的是小例子。

The way rules at home are gendered; the way that, even when you’re paid a compliment as a woman and presented as a superwoman, that’s really code for tying you up in chains of gold.

家庭规则的方式是性别化的；这样一来，即使你被称赞为女性并被描绘成女超人，这实际上也是用金链束缚你的代码。

You will see this advertisement where there’s this perfectly turned-out woman — not a hair out of place, a perfect shining string of pearls, a perfectly crisp sari or pantsuit — ringing her house from her boardroom, where she just closed a billion-dollar deal, asking the help to make whatever — cottage cheese curry for dinner or tandoori chicken curry for dinner.

你会看到这个广告，里面有一个完美的女人——“一根头发都没有错位，一串完美闪亮的珍珠，一套完美挺括的纱丽或裤装”——“从她的会议室里打电话给她的房子，在那里她刚刚完成了一笔价值十亿美元的交易，请求帮助做任何东西”——“晚餐吃干酪咖喱，或者晚餐吃印度烤鸡咖喱。”

That’s supposed to be a compliment, but what it’s really doing is gendering the home as a space for women to run, wherein what ends up happening is that, at the moment, the number of women working in India has actually declined instead of increased because most women cannot cope with the multiple pressures of home and work.

这本来应该是一种恭维，但实际上是将家庭性别化为女性奔跑的空间，最终导致的结果是，目前在印度工作的女性人数实际上是减少而不是增加，因为大多数女性无法应对家庭和工作的多重压力。

I always say that we speak much about equality at work; we just do not talk about equality at home.

我总是说我们在工作中经常谈论平等；我们只是在家里不谈论平等。

That’s the premium on getting married, the premium on parenthood.

这就是结婚的溢价、为人父母的溢价。

There’s so much to unpack here.

这里有很多东西需要解压。

Again, I would say to you, Tyler, it’s a very interesting inflection point for the United States, where you are when it comes to the rights of women.

我想再次对你说，泰勒，对于美国来说，这是一个非常有趣的转折点，在妇女权利方面，你所处的位置。

The fact that there was so much misogynistic resistance to Hillary Clinton, for example, when she was running for president.

事实上，例如，当希拉里·克林顿竞选总统时，她就受到了如此多的厌恶女性的抵制。

All of those are things that we settled long ago, but we’ve got other really, really grave issues that we fight literally every day, every hour of our lives.

所有这些都是我们很久以前就解决的问题，但我们还有其他非常非常严重的问题，我们每天、每时每刻都在与这些问题作斗争。

Local units of governance have, in fact, performed better.

事实上，地方治理单位的表现更好。

We saw this even in the COVID management across the board in the South.

我们甚至在南方的新冠疫情管理中也看到了这一点。

I think a combination of culture and governance, the fact that there’s been more investment on healthcare, on reproductive rights — all of this has led to, I would say, the South being a better place for women than the North.

我认为，文化和治理的结合，以及对医疗保健和生殖权利的投资越来越多这一事实——我想说，所有这些都导致南方成为比北方更适合女性的地方。

I say this as a woman who actually lives and has grown up in North India.

我是作为一个在北印度生活和长大的女性这样说的。

The Hindu personal law was reformed several decades ago, and it is time for other personal laws to be reformed as well and modernized under the umbrella of common family law.

印度教属人法在几十年前进行了改革，现在是时候在普通家庭法的保护下对其他属人法进行改革和现代化了。

But I do not believe that one or the other religion is actually responsible for inequality.

但我不认为某一宗教实际上对不平等负有责任。

I believe the orthodoxies of all faiths militate against the rights of women.

我相信所有信仰的正统观念都会损害妇女的权利。

All faiths.

所有的信仰。

Therefore, I would in another context — and we can speak about why that time is not now — in another context, I would be totally for family law that is agnostic of religious belief.

因此，我会在另一种情况下——“我们可以谈论为什么那个时候不是现在”——在另一种情况下，我会完全支持与宗教信仰无关的家庭法。

I am not among those liberals on the left of India who believe that faiths must be allowed to practice their own personal laws because I do believe that those militate against the equality of men and women.

我不属于印度左翼自由主义者，他们认为必须允许信仰实践自己的属人法，因为我确实认为这些法有损男女平等。

However, I don’t think that’s specific to a religion, but yes, the Hindu law was reformed several decades ago.

然而，我不认为这特定于宗教，但是，是的，印度教法律在几十年前进行了改革。

Not fully so.

不完全如此。

There are changes that are needed culturally among the Hindus, among the Christians, as I said, among the orthodoxies of all religious faiths.

正如我所说，印度教徒、基督徒以及所有宗教信仰的正统观念都需要进行文化上的改变。

Actually, the data tells you — and this is well documented, both within India and in a recent survey that was released by Pew— that, though the rate of growth is higher among Muslims, definitely, than it is among Hindu communities, the rate of decline is also now the sharpest because there was a much higher rate of growth among Muslims, and that the Muslims will never outnumber Hindus.

事实上，数据告诉你——印度国内和皮尤研究中心最近发布的一项调查都有充分记录——虽然穆斯林的增长率肯定高于印度教社区，但现在的下降速度也是最急剧的，因为穆斯林的增长率要高得多，而且穆斯林的人数永远不会超过印度教徒。

But would I take that — to take your question — for there being a lack of enthusiasm for child-rearing?

但我是否会认为 —— 回答你的问题 —— 因为人们缺乏养育孩子的热情？

Not true.

不正确。

This has been a decades-old fight to get India’s population under control, and it is finally starting to yield results, which is why I actually disagree with legislations that are now being proposed in several parts of India to actually either incentivize or penalize those who have more than two children.

这是一场持续了数十年的控制印度人口的斗争，现在终于开始取得成果，这就是为什么我实际上不同意印度一些地区目前正在提议的立法，这些立法实际上是激励或惩罚那些拥有两个以上孩子的人。

I think penalties don’t necessarily work.

我认为惩罚不一定有效。

Incentives can, but penalties certainly don’t.

激励可以，但惩罚肯定不行。

We also have the added issue of female feticide, which is girls who are killed in their womb before they’re allowed to be brought into this world because of the premium that is still placed, very much across classes, on a boy child.

我们还有一个额外的问题，即堕胎女婴，即女孩在被允许来到这个世界之前就被杀死在子宫里，因为在很大程度上，跨阶级的社会仍然对男孩给予重视。

I think what you’re dealing with when you quoted those numbers, Tyler, is actually the success of India’s family planning program, where there has been a very, very strong awareness campaign around urging families to not have more than two children, and we are finally within striking distance of that figure.

泰勒，我认为，当你引用这些数字时，你所面对的实际上是印度计划生育计划的成功，印度开展了非常非常强烈的宣传活动，敦促家庭不要生育超过两个孩子，我们终于距离这个数字很近了。

I hope we continue to follow the progressive approach to family planning and population management that we have, where people, on their own, are understanding that they should not be adding, certainly, more than two children to the demographics.

我希望我们继续遵循我们现有的计划生育和人口管理的渐进方法，人们自己都明白，他们不应该在人口统计中增加两个以上的孩子。

So, no, I don’t think we are going to ever be in that position where you’re going to have the reverse problem.

所以，不，我认为我们永远不会遇到相反的问题。

I think we’re steady on this.

我认为我们对此很坚定。

What concerns me more is the set of proposed legislations that now seeks to actually have a kind of enforced system of family planning, which I oppose.

我更关心的是一系列拟议的立法，这些立法现在寻求实际上建立一种强制的计划生育制度，我对此表示反对。

I oppose it mostly because — again, to go back to that misogyny that we were talking about — it will actually end up penalizing women who are often denied the right, let’s say, to access contraception and sometimes the rights to it, as well, in relationships that are not fully equal in the bedroom.

我反对它主要是因为——再次回到我们正在谈论的厌女症——它实际上最终会惩罚那些经常被剥夺权利的女性，比如说，获得避孕的权利，有时甚至是在卧室里不完全平等的关系中被剥夺的权利。

I think that kind of intermingling, of living in the same housing societies or neighborhoods, participating in each other’s festivals as opposed to just tolerating them — those are the structural changes or shifts that we are witnessing.

我认为这种混合，生活在相同的住房社会或社区，参加彼此的节日而不是仅仅容忍它们——这些就是我们正在目睹的结构性变化或转变。

It’s also true that it is tougher for a person from a religious minority — in particular, an Indian Muslim — to get a house as easily as a non-Muslim.

确实，对于宗教少数群体——尤其是印度穆斯林——来说，要像非穆斯林一样轻松地获得一套房子要困难得多。

I think I would be lying if I did not acknowledge that.

如果我不承认这一点，我想我就是在撒谎。

Also, the last point is interfaith marriages or interfaith love.

另外，最后一点是跨信仰婚姻或跨信仰爱情。

This is a deeply politicized issue as well.

这也是一个高度政治化的问题。

While I’m talking to you, in the last 24 hours in the Southern city of Hyderabad, one of our big technology hubs, we’ve had reports of a Muslim family that attacked a Hindu man for marrying a Muslim woman.

在我与您交谈的同时，在过去 24 小时内，在我们的大型科技中心之一的南部城市海得拉巴，我们收到了关于一个穆斯林家庭袭击一名印度教男子与一名穆斯林妇女结婚的报道。

In reverse, we see Muslim women also targeted all the time if they choose to marry Hindus.

相反，我们看到，如果穆斯林妇女选择嫁给印度教徒，她们也一直成为目标。

This is not helped by the fact that you’ve had several states now talking about what they call love jihad.

事实上，现在有几个州正在谈论他们所谓的“爱情圣战”，这一事实无济于事。

That’s the phrase they use for marriages that are across religious communities, in particular between Hindus and Muslims.

这是他们用来形容跨宗教社区婚姻的短语，特别是印度教徒和穆斯林之间的婚姻。

The percentage of Indians marrying not just outside their religion but also outside their caste — which in Hinduism is a hierarchical system of traditional occupation that you’re born into — is woefully low.

印度人不仅与宗教信仰之外的人结婚，而且与种姓之外的人结婚的比例——在印度教中，种姓是一种传统职业的等级制度，你出生在其中——的比例低得可怜。

I don’t know if I remember my data correctly, but I think less than 5 percent of Indians actually marry outside of their own communities.

我不知道我的数据是否记得正确，但我认为只有不到 5% 的印度人实际上在自己的社区之外结婚。

I would need to go back to that number and check it, but that’s what I remember off the top of my head.

我需要回到那个号码并检查一下，但这就是我脑海中所记得的。

Those are the structural reasons: the fact that people don’t love or have relationships outside of their community, don’t live enough with people of diverse faiths, and don’t participate in each other’s lives.

这些是结构性原因：人们在社区之外不爱或没有关系，与不同信仰的人相处不够，也不参与彼此的生活。

We used to have this politically correct phrase called tolerance, which I actually just hate, and I keep nudging people towards the Indian military.

我们曾经有一个政治正确的词叫宽容，实际上我只是讨厌它，我一直在推动人们走向印度军队。

The Indian military actually has a system of the commanding officer taking on the faith of his troops during religious prayers.

印度军队实际上有一套指挥官在宗教祈祷期间接受其部队信仰的制度。

The military has multireligious places of worship.

军队有多种宗教礼拜场所。

It even has something called an MMG, which is not just a medium machine gun but a Mandir Masjid Gurdwara, which is all the different faiths praying together at the same place.

它甚至还有一种叫做 MMG 的东西，这不仅仅是一把中型机枪，而是一座 Mandir Masjid Gurdwara，这是所有不同信仰的人在同一个地方一起祈祷的地方。

We don’t see a lot of that kind of thing happening outside of the military.

我们在军队之外没有看到很多这样的事情发生。

Another survey done by Pew reinforced this when it spoke of Indians today being more like a thali than khichri.

皮尤研究中心进行的另一项调查进一步证实了这一点，该调查称如今的印度人更像塔利人而不是基奇里人。

Let me just explain that.

让我解释一下。

A thali is a silver tray where you get little balls of different food items.

塔利是一个银托盘，里面装有不同食物的小球。

Pew found that Hindus and Muslims — when surveyed, both spoke of the need for religious diversity as being a cornerstone of India.

皮尤研究中心发现，印度教徒和穆斯林在接受调查时都表示，宗教多样性是印度的基石。

They like the idea of India as a thali, where there were different little food items, but separate food items.

他们喜欢印度作为塔利的想法，那里有不同的小食品，但又是单独的食品。

The khichri is rice and lentils all mixed up and eaten with pickle.

khichri 是将米饭和扁豆混合在一起，与泡菜一起食用。

The khichri is that intermingling, the untidy overlapping.

khichri 就是那种混合、不整齐的重叠。

We are just seeing less and less of that overlapping.

我们只是看到这种重叠越来越少。

In my opinion, that is tragic.

在我看来，这是悲剧性的。

Where there is social interdependence, where there is economic interdependence, where there is personal interdependence is when relationships thrive and flourish and get better.

哪里有社会相互依存，哪里有经济相互依存，哪里有个人相互依存，关系就会蓬勃发展、蓬勃发展并变得更好。

But when they remain ghettos, separations just tolerating each other — that, I think, remains in the realm of othering.

但当他们仍然是贫民窟时，分离只是互相容忍——我认为，这仍然属于其他人的领域。

Then a few years later, I did one of my first journalism stories in the gang rape of a Dalit woman in a village in Rajasthan.

几年后，我写了第一篇新闻报道，讲述了拉贾斯坦邦一个村庄一名达利特妇女被轮奸的事件。

The Dalits are the people who are at the very bottom of the social hierarchy.

达利特人是处于社会等级制度最底层的人。

They’re often treated as outcasts.

他们经常被视为被遗弃的人。

They often do menial jobs, like cleaning toilets or handling the dead skin of cattle, which they then work into leather.

他们经常做一些卑微的工作，比如清洁厕所或处理牛的死皮，然后将其加工成皮革。

They’re also — it’s shameful that this practice exists — manure scavengers, which, in other words, they literally carry the shit out of toilets that don’t have water or clean our sewers.

他们也是——“这种做法的存在是可耻的”——“粪便清道夫，换句话说，他们确实把粪便从没有水的厕所里运出来，或者清理我们的下水道。

For these reasons, they’re often treated as completely at the bottom of the caste hierarchy.

由于这些原因，他们通常被视为完全处于种姓制度的底层。

The woman, Bhanwari Devi, who had been gang-raped — she had been working with a government program to stop child marriages in her village.

这名被轮奸的妇女名叫班瓦里·德维 (Bhanwari Devi)，她一直在参与政府项目，以制止村里的童婚现象。

Among the men who raped her was the father of a one-year-old child who she had been trying to stop from being married.

强奸她的男子中有一个一岁孩子的父亲，她一直试图阻止他结婚。

After she complained, she was made to live on the outskirts of her village, not allowed access to the village well.

在她投诉后，她被强迫住在村子的郊区，不被允许使用村里的水井。

When one of the courts actually acquitted the men she had accused of rape, the judge remarked that men of a higher caste would not touch a woman of a lower caste, so this rape could not have taken place.

当其中一个法院实际上宣判她所指控的强奸罪的男子无罪时，法官表示，高种姓的男子不会触摸低种姓的妇女，因此这起强奸案不可能发生。

I tell you the story to say that the disavowal of caste is a privilege of sorts.

我告诉你这个故事是为了说明否认种姓是一种特权。

I’ve had to accept the hard way that you can’t disown the reality of caste, much as I would like to.

我不得不接受一个艰难的事实：你不能否认种姓的现实，尽管我很想这样做。

Has there been mobility out of the entrenched caste structures?

根深蒂固的种姓结构是否出现了流动性？

There has been.

曾经有过。

In the cities, you will see less and less of this discrimination of the kind that I have just described having taken place.

在城市里，你会看到我刚才描述的这种歧视现象越来越少。

It was also two decades ago.

那也是二十年前的事了。

You say the state does not recognize caste.

你说国家不承认种姓。

In fact, the state has special affirmative action — which I support — for what are called scheduled castes and scheduled tribes, which have traditionally been discriminated against for centuries.

事实上，国家针对所谓的在册种姓和在册部落采取了特殊的平权行动——“我支持这些行动”，这些种姓和部落传统上几个世纪以来一直受到歧视。

The problem is, Tyler, that now we have everybody wanting a slice of this affirmative action, which allows you quotas in jobs and education, at least in institutes that are run and managed by government.

泰勒，问题是，现在我们每个人都想从这项平权行动中分得一杯羹，这项行动允许你在工作和教育方面获得配额，至少在由政府运营和管理的机构中是这样。

You have something called the OBCs, the Other Backward Classes, who say, “We’re not at the bottom, but we are somewhere in the middle.

有一种叫做 OBC（其他落后阶级）的东西，他们说：“我们不是处于最底层，而是处于中间位置。

From state to state, we’ve also suffered either economic or social discrimination.” You have this highly politicized conversation.

从一个州到另一个州，我们也遭受了经济或社会歧视。”你们之间的对话高度政治化。

You have the entrenched social tradition, even where professional practices are no longer interlinked with caste.

即使专业实践不再与种姓联系在一起，你仍然拥有根深蒂固的社会传统。

You have just this entrenched social structure, and it will not change, in my opinion, till there is economic, professional, and social mobility.

在我看来，这种根深蒂固的社会结构不会改变，除非出现经济、职业和社会流动性。

We’re seeing a lot of that, in fact.

事实上，我们看到了很多这样的情况。

A lot of things have changed, but not when it comes, once again, to love and marriage.

很多事情都发生了变化，但在爱情和婚姻方面却没有改变。

I feel that that’s where the real tests are.

我觉得这才是真正的考验所在。

It’s like people who say, “Some of my best friends are Black.

就像有人说：“我最好的一些朋友是黑人。

Some of my best friends are Muslim.” Yes, but would you be comfortable with your daughter marrying one?

我的一些最好的朋友是穆斯林。”是的，但是你愿意让你的女儿嫁给一个吗？

That’s where the test is.

这就是测试的地方。

That talent obviously migrated out much earlier and perhaps is today acceptable or recognized or taken cognizance of because there’s proof of concept.

这些人才显然更早地就迁移出去了，也许今天已经被接受或认可或认识到，因为有概念证明。

I think before Elon Musk took over Twitter, we had an Indian CEO of Twitter.

我认为在埃隆·马斯克接管 Twitter 之前，我们有一位印度裔的 Twitter 首席执行官。

I can name any number of companies.

我可以说出任意数量的公司的名字。

You already know all of them, and so does your audience.

您已经了解所有这些，您的观众也是如此。

I think there’s proof of concept.

我认为有概念证明。

I think there have been people who’ve proven a mark.

我认为有些人已经证明了自己的能力。

We’ve long been described in America as a model minority community.

长期以来，我们在美国一直被描述为模范少数族裔社区。

A lot of it has to do with our excellent subsidized institutes of higher education.

这很大程度上与我们优秀的资助高等教育机构有关。

If you were to look at the background of most of these CEOs who are today leading conglomerates out of the West, most of them would have studied at institutes like the Indian Institute of Management or the Indian Institute of Technology, the IIT or the IIMs.

如果你看看当今领导西方企业集团的大多数首席执行官的背景，他们中的大多数人都会在印度管理学院或印度理工学院、印度理工学院或印度管理学院等机构学习。

These are very, very difficult to get into.

这些都是非常非常难进入的。

They are subsidized, which means that you don’t have to be rich or wealthy to actually be able to study at them.

它们是有补贴的，这意味着你不必富有或富有才能真正能够在它们学习。

They really do draw the best minds.

他们确实吸引了最优秀的人才。

Literally, almost everybody who’s making global headlines today has studied at one of these institutes.

从字面上看，当今几乎所有登上全球头条新闻的人都曾在这些机构之一学习过。

I think it speaks to one of the success stories, something that India got really right, which is very specialized, highly skilled institutes of technical learning.

我认为这讲述了印度的成功故事之一，印度的做法非常正确，那就是非常专业、高技能的技术学习机构。

We may not have got our liberal arts as right at the higher education level, but certainly, our sciences, our management, our technical institutes — I think we’ve done a fabulous job with them.

我们可能没有在高等教育水平上获得正确的文科教育，但可以肯定的是，我们的科学、我们的管理、我们的技术学院 —— 我认为我们在这些方面做得非常出色。

The fact is that many of these whiz kids, as they were once called, have actually studied at government schools or what I call Kendriya Vidyalaya systems, and so on.

事实上，许多这些神童（他们曾经被称为“神童”）实际上曾在公立学校或我所说的 Kendriya Vidyalaya 系统等学习过。

Not all of them have gone to posh — what are called private schools in the West and what are called public schools in India.

并非所有人都上过豪华学校——西方所谓的私立学校，印度所谓的公立学校。

I do think that to create a competitively drawn elite that is elite not because of what they earned, but because of how well they did in exams, may be an old-fashioned idea, but it’s one that I actually support.

我确实认为，创造一个竞争性的精英，不是因为他们的收入，而是因为他们在考试中的表现，可能是一个过时的想法，但这是我真正支持的一个。

I think one of the reasons we actually do better and well outside of India is because we come with some of these skills.

我认为我们在印度之外做得更好的原因之一是因为我们拥有其中一些技能。

We’ve been brought up to be industrious, hardworking.

我们从小就被教育要勤劳、勤奋。

We’ve been told in middle-class homes and even in lower-middle-class homes that education is everything.

我们在中产阶级家庭甚至中下层家庭中都被告知，教育就是一切。

Education will make or break your life.

教育将成就或毁掉你的生活。

If you get into a good college or a good institute, your life will change.

如果你进入一所好的大学或一个好的学院，你的生活将会改变。

This is the Indian ethos.

这就是印度人的精神。

This is what aspirational India is all about.

这就是有抱负的印度的全部意义所在。

I think it answers your question about why so many Indians are doing well outside India.

我认为它回答了你的问题：为什么这么多印度人在印度以外的地方过得很好。

Does it eliminate the caste question?

它消除了种姓问题吗？

Yes and no. As there are more institutes, as they draw people from more diverse groups, you are still seeing people who are Dalits, who are at the bottom of the caste hierarchy, who could have an IT degree and still face social discrimination when it comes to who they want to marry.

是和不是。随着机构越来越多，吸引来自更多元化群体的人们，你仍然会看到达利特人，他们处于种姓制度的最底层，他们可能拥有信息技术学位，但在选择结婚对象时仍然面临社会歧视。

They won’t be cleaning toilets, and they won’t be denied access to the village well, but if they want to marry, so to speak, above their caste, they will still face resistance.

他们不会打扫厕所，也不会被拒绝进入村里的水井，但如果他们想结婚，可以说，高于他们的种姓，他们仍然会面临阻力。

Economics doesn’t tell you the full story.

经济学并不能告诉你全部的故事。

It isn’t that if you’re at the bottom, you get a great degree and you become wealthy, that’ll just buy you out of all the other forms of discrimination.

这并不是说，如果你处于底层，你获得了很好的学位，你变得富有，那只会让你摆脱所有其他形式的歧视。

It is like race.

这就像种族。

It is a little bit like the race debate.

这有点像种族辩论。

The fact is, you can be a music legend, a cinema legend, a basketball legend, but it will not take away what happened with George Floyd.

事实是，你可以成为音乐传奇人物、电影传奇人物、篮球传奇人物，但这并不能消除乔治·弗洛伊德身上发生的事情。

I think you’re seeing something similar here, where an educated elite person will not face the kind of discrimination that Bhanwari Devi, whom I reported on decades ago, did in her village in Rajasthan, but will not be totally free from all instances and all examples of discrimination.

我认为你在这里看到了类似的情况，一个受过教育的精英不会像我几十年前报道过的班瓦里·德维（Bhanwari Devi）在她位于拉贾斯坦邦的村庄所遭受的那样面临歧视，但也不会完全摆脱所有歧视的情况和例子。

The other important point to note is that where there are quotas, not all of them get filled.

另一个需要注意的要点是，凡是有配额的地方，并不是所有配额都被填满。

You do need a certain baseline to get into these higher institutes, whether of medicine or technology.

你确实需要一定的基础才能进入这些高等院校，无论是医学还是技术。

That’s where I think we really have to work.

我认为这就是我们真正需要努力的地方。

I think our institutes of higher learning are excellent.

我认为我们的高等院校非常优秀。

Where we lag behind are the institutes that come below: our schools, our colleges, our first degrees.

我们落后的是下面的机构：我们的学校、我们的大学、我们的第一个学位。

That’s where the gap is, and that’s what leaves some of those quotas at the higher level underfilled or underutilized.

这就是差距所在，也是导致部分较高级别配额未充分填补或未充分利用的原因。

Yet I can’t say to you that there is a coincidence between caste and technology and success.

但我不能对你说，种姓、技术和成功之间存在巧合。

I think what I can say to you is that there has been an overlapping coincidence of socioeconomic backwardness among marginalized groups, so that is Dalits, that is Muslims.

我想我可以对你说的是，边缘化群体中的社会经济落后存在着重叠的巧合，那就是达利特人，那就是穆斯林。

There is a coincidence because of the jobs and professions that these groups are typically employed in.

由于这些群体通常从事的工作和职业而存在巧合。

If you’re, let’s say, a leather-skin tanner or your job is to cremate bodies — I’m giving you professions that are typically so-called lower castes — you’re not going to earn a bunch of money to educate your children to do something else, or it’ll be tougher for you.

比方说，如果你是一名皮革制革商，或者你的工作是火化尸体 —— 我给你提供的职业通常是所谓的低种姓 —— 你就不会赚到一大笔钱来教育你的孩子做其他事情，否则对你来说会更困难。

Therefore, that coincidence that you point out between Brahmins and success abroad possibly came from the fact that if you’re marginalized on the basis of your caste, you are most likely also earning less than other groups, which means that your ability to, let’s say, go outside of India is diminished compared to other caste groups, so there will be some coincidence.

因此，你指出的婆罗门和在国外的成功之间的巧合可能来自这样一个事实：如果你因为种姓而被边缘化，你很可能也比其他群体挣得更少，这意味着与其他种姓群体相比，你走出印度的能力会减弱，所以会有一些巧合。

It’s a little bit like if you looked at the same CEOs in India — most CEOs are men.

这有点像如果你看看印度的同样的首席执行官 ——大多数首席执行官都是男性。

There are coincidences, interrelated factors that explain why certain groups are able to access resources and opportunities in a way that other groups are not.

有一些巧合和相互关联的因素可以解释为什么某些群体能够以其他群体无法获得的方式获得资源和机会。

I don’t think it means that somebody set out to make all the CEOs of Silicon Valley Brahmins; I think it was a series of factors about access to opportunity and resources and education.

我不认为这意味着有人打算让硅谷的所有首席执行官都是婆罗门；我认为这是关于获得机会、资源和教育的一系列因素。

I’m just hesitant in going beyond saying certain caste groups — like certain gender groups, like certain religious groups — were more influential in terms of places that they occupied at the top of social hierarchies.

我只是犹豫是否要超越某些种姓群体——比如某些性别群体，比如某些宗教群体——就其在社会等级制度顶层所占据的地位而言更具影响力。

For example, maybe exposure to culture among what are so-called upper caste groups was more because income was higher.

例如，也许所谓的上层种姓群体接触文化的机会更多，因为收入更高。

Therefore, there was a luxury of, let’s say, being also able to be exposed to classical music and classical dance.

因此，可以说，能够接触古典音乐和古典舞蹈是一种奢侈。

All of these things are things that flow from how society has treated you.

所有这些都是社会如何对待你而产生的。

I can’t answer why it will play out differently for, let’s say, the White American male, but I hesitate to reinforce the essentialism of your question.

我无法回答为什么对于美国白人男性来说，情况会有所不同，但我犹豫是否要强调你问题的本质主义。

Maybe I don’t know enough, but I’m just really uncomfortable with that beyond saying there’s a coincidence of money, social hierarchy, opportunity, and education.

也许我了解得还不够，但我对此感到非常不舒服，除了说金钱、社会等级、机会和教育是巧合之外。

I haven’t eaten so many cuisines within my country, and I’m 50 and I haven’t.

我在国内还没吃过这么多美食，而且我已经 50 岁了，还没有吃过。

It will take a lifetime for people to get to know Indian food.

人们需要一生的时间才能了解印度美食。

I think the biggest reason that it’s so interesting is, one, because there isn’t one thing called Indian food.

我认为它如此有趣的最大原因是，第一，因为没有一种东西叫做印度菜。

There isn’t one kind of Indian food.

没有一种印度食物。

But mostly because of flavor and spices.

但主要是因为味道和香料。

The one thing we can never be accused of is being bland, neither our food nor our people.

我们永远不能被指责的一件事就是平淡无奇，无论是我们的食物还是我们的人民。

There’s a lot of, obviously, experimentation with spice and with flavor, and the palette has just now become that.

显然，有很多关于香料和风味的实验，而调色板现在就变成了这样。

There is no notion of ever having a meal that is not flavorful or full of aromas and spices.

没有人吃过一顿饭不美味或充满香气和香料。

I don’t cook, but I eat a lot.

我不会做饭，但我吃很多。

As I said, that’s one compliment I’m happy to take as a generalized truth about my nation.

正如我所说，这是我很高兴将其视为关于我的国家的普遍真理的一种赞美。

There are two problems.

有两个问题。

I’m not an economist.

我不是经济学家。

You are, so you may have a view on this.

你是，所以你可能对此有自己的看法。

There are two problems here.

这里有两个问题。

One is, of course, in the supply chains, the efficiency of the transport system.

当然，其中之一是供应链中运输系统的效率。

The other is that governments still buy or procure grains at what’s called a minimum support price.

另一个是政府仍然以所谓的最低支持价格购买或采购谷物。

This was the context for a recent year-long, unprecedented protest by farmers of North India on the outskirts of India’s capital, one that got global attention because the Modi government moved to reform, or that was the word they used, and allow private players to come into this market.

这就是最近一年印度北部农民在印度首都郊区举行的史无前例的抗议活动的背景，这场抗议活动引起了全球的关注，因为莫迪政府开始进行改革，或者这是他们使用的词，并允许私人参与者进入这个市场。

I don’t know enough to say what is better and what is worse.

我不知道什么是更好，什么是更糟。

There has been the suggestion that this minimum support price system has created a mismatch between demand and supply, that there have to be more efficient ways of treating agricultural markets.

有人认为，这种最低支持价格制度造成了供需之间的不匹配，必须有更有效的方式来对待农产品市场。

I’ve read and heard all the arguments.

我读过并听到了所有的论点。

I’m not an expert, I’m not an economist, but I do know that there is often this glut of grain in a country where so many millions are still poor.

我不是专家，也不是经济学家，但我确实知道，在一个仍有数百万人仍然贫穷的国家，粮食常常过剩。

Therefore, there is obviously something structurally wrong.

因此，显然存在结构性错误。

That doesn’t contradict the fact that there is plentiful variety of vegetables.

这与蔬菜种类丰富的事实并不矛盾。

It is just whether those vegetables actually manage to reach the markets in such a way that is a fair price for the farmer.

问题只是这些蔬菜是否真正能够以对农民来说公平的价格进入市场。

Mumbai would come close.

孟买很接近。

It would have to be between those two cities.

它必须在这两个城市之间。

I wanted to say Bangalore because it’s one of my very favorite cities, but in terms of my own food experience, I think it’s also that we are in the North.

我想说班加罗尔，因为它是我最喜欢的城市之一，但就我自己的美食体验而言，我认为这也是我们在北方的原因。

We eat more, and we care about food more.

我们吃得更多，我们更关心食物。

We’re also more unfit for that reason, but it’s true.

由于这个原因，我们也更不适合，但这是事实。

Again, you’re drawing me into essentialisms that I disavowed myself from, but culturally, the Punjabi or the North Indian is obsessed with food.

再一次，你让我陷入了我自己否认的本质主义，但从文化上来说，旁遮普人或北印度人对食物很着迷。

The notion of hospitality, of how you treat your guests, is very tied into food.

热情好客的概念，即如何对待客人，与食物密切相关。

You never let anyone go hungry from your home.

你永远不会让家里的任何人挨饿。

It doesn’t matter whether that person is a stranger.

这个人是不是陌生人并不重要。

It’s just steeped in the North Indian culture.

它只是沉浸在北印度文化中。

I pick Delhi.

我选德里。

I would pick Delhi because I think it does everything.

我会选择德里，因为我认为它无所不能。

It does the posh, it does the accessible, affordable, it does the street food, it does regionally diverse.

它提供豪华、方便、实惠、街头小吃、地域多元化。

Maybe I’m just more familiar with it because, other than New York, this is the city I’ve lived in all my life.

也许我只是更熟悉它，因为除了纽约，这是我一生居住的城市。

I’m thinking hard because I don’t read a lot of fiction in India.

我正在努力思考，因为我在印度读的小说不多。

I was brought up on Enid Blyton and Amar Chitra Katha’s comics.

我是看着伊妮德·布莱顿 (Enid Blyton) 和阿马尔·奇特拉·卡塔 (Amar Chitra Katha) 的漫画长大的。

I don’t know if comics count as worthy, but really, my exposure to my culture was through comics.

我不知道漫画是否有价值，但实际上，我是通过漫画接触到我的文化的。

It was actually really fascinating.

这实际上非常令人着迷。

All the fables, the myths, the stories of our classics were brought to us in comic form.

我们经典中​​的所有寓言、神话和故事都以喜剧的形式呈现给我们。

I know it’s not the answer you were looking for, but really, how much we’ve learned from Amar Chitra Katha cannot be discounted.

我知道这不是您想要的答案，但实际上，我们从 Amar Chitra Katha 那里学到了很多东西，这是不容忽视的。

From Vol 513, Rs 35 Hanuman to the Rescue

来自第 513 卷，35 卢比哈努曼救援

The other book that comes to mind is English August, which was again made into a film later.

我想到的另一本书是《英语八月》，后来又被拍成电影。

It’s also a stellar book.

这也是一本明星书。

I’m thinking.

我在想。

Indian novels?

印度小说？

Oh, I’m reading a very interesting book right now by the first Indian novelist — Geetanjali Shree, who writes in Hindi — to be nominated for the Booker.

哦，我现在正在读一本非常有趣的书，作者是第一位获得布克奖提名的印度小说家——吉坦贾利·什里（Geetanjali Shree），他用印地语写作。

She actually wrote the original novel in Hindi, but it’s now been translated.

她实际上用印地语写了原著小说，但现在已经被翻译了。

My Hindi is not so good that I could read the novel in Hindi.

我的印地语不太好，无法阅读印地语的小说。

It’s actually about a woman in her 80s whose husband dies, and she’s treated as this classic widow, shunned by her family, overlooked, and how she discovers her zest for life again.

它实际上讲述了一位丈夫去世的 80 多岁妇女，她被视为典型的寡妇，被家人回避、忽视，以及如何重新找到生活的热情。

It is an extremely compelling feminist fable as it were, and an extremely compelling book.

这是一个极其引人注目的女权主义寓言，也是一本极其引人注目的书。

It is about the community that actually performs these last rites, and the story of a young man who does this for a living and who also falls in love outside of his caste.

它讲述的是实际执行这些最后仪式的社区，以及一个以此为生的年轻人的故事，他也爱上了自己种姓之外的人。

Therefore, it actually is at the intersection of many of the things we’ve been speaking about.

因此，它实际上是我们一直在谈论的许多事情的交叉点。

Its protagonist went on to become a big Bollywood star, but when the film came out, it had an art house cast.

它的主角后来成为宝莱坞大明星，但当这部电影上映时，它有一个艺术演员阵容。

It was very low key, and it’s a really excellent recommended watch.

非常低调，是一款非常值得推荐的手表。

While of course, in a globalized world, it’s very hard to define what is the product of colonization and what is yours, there is truth in the fact that those three years studying literature at St. Stephen’s College were wonderful, the happiest three years of my life, but completely dislocated me from the complexity of my country.

当然，在全球化的世界里，很难界定什么是殖民的产物，什么是你的，但事实是，在圣史蒂芬学院学习文学的三年是美好的，是我一生中最快乐的三年，但却完全让我脱离了祖国的复杂性。

Even in terms of language, I regret that mostly I dream and think in English.

即使在语言方面，我也很遗憾我大部分都是用英语做梦和思考。

It’s not because I think of English as an outsider language.

这并不是因为我认为英语是外来语言。

In fact, I think of it as one of our own languages.

事实上，我认为它是我们自己的语言之一。

But we have a three-language model in India that is now being questioned — and I’m against it being questioned — but it’s basically English, Hindi, and your mother tongue.

但我们在印度有一个三语言模型，现在正在受到质疑 ——“我反对它受到质疑”—— 但它基本上是英语、印地语和你的母语。

The point is my mother tongue is Punjabi, but my parents never taught me how to write in Gurmukhi.

关键是我的母语是旁遮普语，但我的父母从未教过我如何用古尔穆基语写作。

They never taught me how to speak in Punjabi.

他们从未教过我如何用旁遮普语说话。

I can understand it, but I can’t speak it.

我能听懂，但我不会说。

I can speak in Hindi today because I became a reporter and I traveled all across India, and I learned the language.

我今天能说印地语，因为我成为了一名记者，走遍了印度，我学会了这种语言。

But I mostly grew up speaking, reading, and writing in English and mostly knowing Jane Austen over, let’s face it, the Indian novels you asked me about.

但我大部分时间都是用英语说、读、写的，而且我主要了解简·奥斯汀，让我们面对现实吧，你问我的印度小说。

I had read every Enid Blyton, and I hadn’t read an Indian novelist when I went to school.

我读过伊妮德·布莱顿的每一本小说，但上学时我没有读过印度小说家的作品。

It’s the same for Kipling.

对于吉卜林来说也是如此。

All of us knew the poem “If — ” by heart, by rote.

我们所有人都熟记于心、死记硬背这首诗《If — 》。

We could all recite it.

我们都可以背诵它。

We learned it in this decontextualized way.

我们以这种脱离情境的方式学习它。

A lot of our education was completely decontextual.

我们的很多教育都是完全脱节的。

We would just read it as a bunch of words.

我们只是把它当作一堆单词来读。

Oftentimes, we didn’t know what they stood for, what they represented.

很多时候，我们不知道它们代表什么、代表什么。

We had no idea, and because we imbibed them in a decontextualized way, they became part of — they’re more childhood associations rather than illustrations of colonization.

我们不知道，而且因为我们以一种脱离语境的方式吸收它们，它们成为了的一部分——它们更多的是童年的联想，而不是殖民的例证。

Of course, yes, words matter, language matters, context matters, but I’m able to separate timing and literature.

当然，是的，文字很重要，语言很重要，背景很重要，但我能够将时间和文学分开。

I would never enjoy Austen today, but hell, Bridgerton is the most-watched series on Netflix.

今天我永远不会喜欢奥斯汀，但天哪，布里奇顿是 Netflix 上观看次数最多的剧集。

I haven’t watched it because I don’t want to watch women forcing themselves into corsets, looking for an ideal man, but why is most of the world watching it?

我没有看过它，因为我不想看到女人强迫自己穿上紧身胸衣，寻找一个理想的男人，但为什么世界上大多数人都在看它？

I think there’s something to be said about entertainment for its own sake, memory, nostalgia, words that formed you, shaped you, that you could have a good laugh at, not take too seriously.

我认为，关于娱乐本身，记忆、怀旧、塑造你、塑造你的文字，你可以开怀大笑，而不是太当真。

I probably would be described in the same way.

我可能会以同样的方式被描述。

I don’t think of myself as that, but if you ask somebody, maybe in India, randomly, they’d classify me as that, I suspect — as an Anglo-American deracinated, rootless, urbane liberal who doesn’t know anything about her own culture.

我不认为自己是那样的人，但如果你随机地问某人，也许在印度，他们会把我归类为这样的人，我怀疑——作为一个英裔美国人，被驱逐的、无根的、温文尔雅的自由主义者，对自己的文化一无所知。

I’m actually trying.

我实际上正在努力。

Journalism has enabled that in me, Tyler, to learn more, to educate myself, to realize that simple-minded ideas I had of what’s progressive .

泰勒，新闻事业使我能够了解更多，教育自己，认识到我对进步的简单想法。

.

。

.

。

Let’s take religion.

让我们以宗教为例。

I’m an agnostic.

我是一个不可知论者。

I don’t believe in any institutionalized religion.

我不相信任何制度化的宗教。

Many Anglo — whatever — Americanized liberals or Western liberals don’t.

许多英国人——“无论如何”——美国化的自由主义者或西方自由主义者不这样做。

There’s a Nehruvian idea of a separation between state and religion.

有一种尼赫鲁式的国家与宗教分离的想法。

It doesn’t work.

这不起作用。

This is a country where religion overlaps into culture every single day, every single moment.

在这个国家，宗教每一天、每时每刻都与文化重叠。

It’s an untidy overlapping.

这是一种凌乱的重叠。

I think we’ve got to learn to return to the language of faith, to spread and protect Indian pluralism rather than say, “Hey, I don’t believe in any religion,” and somehow expect people to understand what I’m saying.

我认为我们必须学会回归信仰的语言，传播和​​保护印度的多元化，而不是说，“嘿，我不相信任何宗教”，并以某种方式期望人们理解我在说什么。

I need a language of mass communication.

我需要一种大众传播的语言。

Until the Indian liberal finds that language — whether it’s Ram Guha, or whether it’s Barkha Dutt, or whether it’s somebody else — we will be destined to fail in this new India in communicating a message to a larger number of our countrymates.

除非印度自由主义者找到这种语言——“无论是拉姆·古哈，还是巴尔哈·杜特，还是其他人”——“在这个新印度，我们注定无法向更多的同胞传达信息。”

That said, one of the things that I think I didn’t speak about when I spoke about the intelligentsia is that we are felled by dogma.

也就是说，我认为当我谈论知识分子时我没有谈论的一件事是我们被教条所击倒。

One of my quarrels with the Indian intelligentsia — or sections of it — is its failure to recognize and respect the sentimentalism around institutes of the state: the military, the flag, our veterans, our anthrop.

我与印度知识分子（或其中的一部分）的争吵之一是他们未能认识和尊重围绕国家机构的感伤主义：军队、国旗、我们的退伍军人、我们的人类。

This whole idea that we’re all citizens of the world — yes, I’m also a product of a globalized world.

我们都是世界公民的整个想法——是的，我也是全球化世界的产物。

But we, again, don’t understand that there’s a constitutional patriotism is what we should be advocating instead of saying, “Oh, we’re all one world.”

但我们再次不明白，我们应该提倡宪法爱国主义，而不是说“哦，我们都是同一个世界”。

I guess what I’m saying is, the intelligentsia and the left probably coincide because of this need to question all accepted norms.

我想我想说的是，知识分子和左派可能是一致的，因为他们需要质疑所有公认的规范。

But I think that if you want to communicate with a larger section of people outside of your echo chambers, you need to be able to pick up the language of some of these norms, the ones you relate to, and convert them into idioms of modern expression.

但我认为，如果你想与回音室之外的更多人进行交流，你需要能够掌握其中一些规范的语言，以及与你相关的规范，并将它们转换成现代表达的习语。

It’s culturally very different, but I do see our cities are changing.

文化上有很大不同，但我确实看到我们的城市正在发生变化。

I also see a kind of illicit liquor consumption in rural India that is extremely entrenched and often results in massive tragedies because of the spurious liquor and so on.

我还看到印度农村有一种非法酒类消费的现象极其根深蒂固，常常因为假酒等造成巨大的悲剧。

I completely disagree, by the way, with prohibition.

顺便说一句，我完全不同意禁止。

This has led to many feminist debates because there are states — Bihar being one of them — that actually outlawed alcohol by making the argument that it led to greater domestic violence at home.

这引发了许多女权主义辩论，因为有些州——“比哈尔邦就是其中之一”——实际上通过认为饮酒会导致家庭暴力加剧而禁止饮酒。

And there were women who supported this because their men would go and get drunk and come back and be violent with them.

有些女人支持这一点，因为她们的男人会去喝醉，然后回来对她们施暴。

I do not think that restricting anything and pushing it underground is the answer.

我不认为限制任何事物并将其推入地下是答案。

I do think that there are cultural conformities associated with how you drink, where you drink.

我确实认为，饮酒方式和地点存在一定的文化一致性。

Do you drink with family?

你和家人一起喝酒吗？

Do women drink?

女人喝酒吗？

Maybe that leads to the gap between how the West looks at alcohol and how we do.

也许这导致了西方看待酒精的方式与我们如何看待酒精之间的差距。

You learn the hard way to not read your mentions, or to speed-read them.

你经历了惨痛的教训才学会不读你提到的内容，或者快速阅读它们。

You grow a really thick skin, and you use it for what it’s good for.

你的脸皮很厚，你可以用它来做它有用的事情。

It’s good for a few things.

这对某些事情有好处。

It connects you to people across continents and cultures.

它将您与跨越大洲和文化的人们联系起来。

If you’re a journalist and you’re interested in being exposed to a variety of thoughts, it exposes you to all of that.

如果你是一名记者并且你有兴趣接触各种想法，那么它会让你接触到所有这些。

It helps you find interesting speakers for your programs and for your reports.

它可以帮助您为您的节目和报告找到有趣的演讲者。

Sometimes — I spent two years covering the pandemic — it connects; it creates a community of very kind strangers.

有时 —— 我花了两年时间报道这一流行病 —— 它联系在一起；它创造了一个由非常友善的陌生人组成的社区。

We had a massive shutdown of public transport in our first lockdown.

在第一次封锁期间，我们大规模关闭了公共交通。

I had people from Twitter saying, “Oh, do you need a place to stay here?

Twitter 上的人对我说：“哦，你需要在这里找地方住吗？

You can stay here.

你可以留在这里。

Do you need food?

你需要食物吗？

We’ll send you food.

我们会给你送食物。

Do you need shoes?

你需要鞋子吗？

We’ll send you shoes.” It’s a community.

我们会给你寄鞋子。”这是一个社区。

You have to know what to take from it.

你必须知道从中得到什么。

Otherwise, it is political as hell, it is noisy as hell, it is coarse as hell, and it’s a terrible place to be for women.

否则，这里就是政治地狱，喧闹地狱，粗俗地狱，对女性来说这是一个可怕的地方。

By the way, I’m not alone among liberal friends who think de-platforming Trump was wrong because I just don’t like cancel culture.

顺便说一句，在自由派朋友中，我并不是唯一一个认为取消特朗普平台是错误的人，因为我只是不喜欢取消文化。

That’s a whole different debate.

这是一场完全不同的辩论。

You can take down specific tweets, but I’m not sure that you should be de-platforming people.

你可以删除特定的推文，但我不确定你是否应该取消人们的平台。

It’s a very complicated space, but yes, the Indian right wing is super excited.

这是一个非常复杂的空间，但是，是的，印度右翼非常兴奋。

The Indian left is extremely worried.

印度左派极为担忧。

Musk has already made his position clear that he wants a Twitter that is free from the far left and the far right.

马斯克已经明确表明自己的立场，他希望 Twitter 不受极左和极右的影响。

Good luck with that.

祝你好运。

Chomsky spoke about manufactured consent in mass media.

乔姆斯基谈到了大众媒体中制造的同意。

I think we are in the age of manufactured dissent.

我认为我们正处于制造异议的时代。

I think Twitter amplifies those disagreements, even if they don’t exist offline.

我认为 Twitter 放大了这些分歧，即使它们在线下并不存在。

Believe it or not, I watch a village cooking channel out of Tamil Nadu because, as you now know, I love food.

不管你信不信，我观看泰米尔纳德邦的一个乡村烹饪频道，因为正如你现在所知，我喜欢食物。

This is a community channel that is run by these farmers who only speak Tamil, but you can look at their video, and it is astonishing.

这是一个由这些只会说泰米尔语的农民经营的社区频道，但你可以看看他们的视频，这很令人惊讶。

I’ve been thinking for a long time, “Oh my God, I have to find out who runs this channel, who has done this for these farmers?” Because it’s superbly produced and it’s beautifully shot.

我想了很长一段时间，“天哪，我必须找出谁在经营这个频道，谁为这些农民做了这些？”因为它制作精良，拍摄精美。

You can just look at how they’re cooking.

你可以看看他们是怎么做饭的。

They’re cooking in the field.

他们正在田里做饭。

Every day, they cook a new dish, and they release a new video.

他们每天都会做一道新菜，发布一个新视频。

I know it’s an odd example to give, but I watch a lot of that.

我知道这是一个奇怪的例子，但我看过很多这样的例子。

Actually, of all the platforms, I still find YouTube and Twitter the most productive because there’s actually something to engage with in terms of content.

事实上，在所有平台中，我仍然发现 YouTube 和 Twitter 是最有成效的，因为在内容方面实际上有一些东西可以参与。

Everything else is one big vanity parade in some ways.

从某些方面来说，其他一切都是一场盛大的虚荣游行。

I, for example, had a WhatsApp forward sent to me about me, which said that my politics was explained by the fact that I had been married three times to three Muslim men — I’ve never been married — and this explained the fact that I believed in a pluralistic India.

例如，有人向我发送了一条关于我的 WhatsApp 转发，其中说我的政治观点是通过我与三个穆斯林男人结过三次婚这一事实来解释的——“我从未结过婚”——这解释了我相信多元化的印度这一事实。

They made up names of these men.

他们为这些人起了名字。

This was on a WhatsApp forward that got circulated so heavily that it was forwarded to me as well.

这是在 WhatsApp 上转发的，该转发非常广泛，以至于它也被转发给了我。

WhatsApp is almost like a political or a weaponized vehicle of fake news now, but I use it all the time with friends.

WhatsApp 现在几乎就像一个政治或假新闻的武器化工具，但我一直和朋友一起使用它。

It’s just an easier, non-intrusive way of talking.

这只是一种更简单、非侵入性的交谈方式。