Audrey Tang on the Technology of Democracy (Ep. 106)
Hello, everyone.
大家好。
Welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
欢迎回到与泰勒对话。
Tonight I’m chatting with the amazing Audrey Tang, who is also digital minister of Taiwan.
今晚我将与令人惊叹的邓丽君聊天，她也是台湾的数字部长。
Audrey, welcome.
奥黛丽，欢迎。
Hello.
你好。
Good local time, everyone.
大家当地时间好。
What software that doesn’t exist yet would be most helpful for coordinating future antiauthoritarian movements?
哪些尚不存在的软件对于协调未来的反独裁运动最有帮助？
Well, of course, a quantum-resistant cryptographic channel will really help to enable true secure conversation, that once someone tries to intercept it, you will know immediately.
当然，抗量子加密通道确实有助于实现真正的安全对话，一旦有人试图拦截它，您就会立即知道。
There are encrypted channels now, such as WhatsApp.
现在有加密渠道，比如WhatsApp。
Do they not serve that function?
他们不发挥这个作用吗？
If the makers of this software decide to eavesdrop themselves, then there’s no physical property, only mathematical property that stops the conversation being eavesdropped.
如果该软件的制造商决定自己窃听，那么就没有物理属性，只有数学属性可以阻止对话被窃听。
Now those — what we call the public key cryptography in mathematics has added a very real danger of being broken within a decade or so, or two decades if you’re optimistic, by the quantum computer themselves.
现在，我们所说的数学中的公钥密码学增加了一种非常现实的危险，即量子计算机本身会在十年左右（如果你乐观的话，二十年）内被破解。
What kind of software do we need to make the democracy of the future work?
我们需要什么样的软件来实现未来的民主？
Well, first of all, I think democracy is an ongoing process, definitely as something that makes the listening at scale work, that makes co-presence work, that enables people who are closest to the suffering amplify their experiences, and so that people with various different backgrounds can empathize with that experience.
嗯，首先，我认为民主是一个持续的过程，它可以让大规模的倾听发挥作用，让共在发挥作用，让最接近苦难的人能够放大他们的经历，让不同背景的人能够同情这种经历。
In short, software that enables listening and feeling scale.
简而言之，软件可以实现聆听和感受的规模。
Does virtual reality help in that regard?
虚拟现实在这方面有帮助吗？
Or does virtual reality give us experiences so intense that we become less empathetic to suffering because that VR vacation in Paris is just so amazing?
还是虚拟现实给我们带来的体验如此强烈，以至于我们对痛苦不再那么有同理心，因为在巴黎的虚拟现实假期太棒了？
That’s right.
这是正确的。
Only if it’s shared reality, though.
不过，前提是这是共同的现实。
I hear you talking about your amazing VR Paris vacation, but unless I can enter the same space and make it an extended reality that contains both of us, it would not become a social reality and to say individual reality.
我听到你谈论你在巴黎的精彩 VR 假期，但除非我能进入同一个空间并使其成为一个包含我们俩的扩展现实，否则它不会成为社会现实，更不用说个人现实了。
That may, of course, have some therapeutic effects or overview effect.
当然，这可能会产生一些治疗效果或总体效果。
I’m not denying that, but I would say that this is pro-social but not necessarily democratic.
我并不否认这一点，但我想说这是亲社会的，但不一定是民主的。
Do you think, at the margin, people with virtual reality will be more interested in visiting the slums of Mumbai or going to Sun Moon Lake in Taiwan, which is very beautiful, of course?
你认为在边缘，拥有虚拟现实的人会更有兴趣参观孟买的贫民窟或去台湾的日月潭吗？当然，那里很美丽？
Well, why not do both?
那么，为什么不两者都做呢？
I mean, you can definitely take the Sun and Moon Lake, and just in the Sun and Moon Lake have a conversation and watch together how it works in Mumbai, and vice versa.
我的意思是，你绝对可以去日月湖，就在日月湖里交谈，一起看看孟买的运作方式，反之亦然。
I mean, we just had an Asia Pacific Social Innovation Partnership Award, and in a summit, we hear the designers in Singapore are working for an app that enable foreign workers, the offshore workers from Philippines in, say, Taiwan, to take care of their loved ones.
我的意思是，我们刚刚获得了亚太社会创新合作伙伴奖，在一次峰会上，我们听说新加坡的设计师正在开发一款应用程序，使外国工人（例如台湾的菲律宾离岸工人）能够照顾他们的亲人。
Instead of sending cash home, they can do grocery shopping to make sure that their money is not spent on luxury goods, and so on.
他们可以去杂货店购物，以确保他们的钱没有花在奢侈品等上，而不是寄现金回家。
That’s three different countries and cultures right there.
那是三个不同的国家和文化。
Let’s say we had a service, a better version of AI, and anyone in the world could ask it any question in any language, it would mostly give pretty good answers.
假设我们有一项服务，一个更好版本的人工智能，世界上任何人都可以用任何语言向它提出任何问题，它大多会给出很好的答案。
Would that increase empathy or lower it?
这会增加还是降低同理心？
Well, of course, that depends on what you mean by pretty good.
嗯，当然，这取决于你所说的“相当好”是什么意思。
Does it make satisfying-sounding answers?
它能给出听起来令人满意的答案吗？
Does it make answers that seem real?
它给出的答案看起来真实吗？
Does it make mostly factual but not empathetic answers?
它是否给出了大部分事实性但缺乏同理心的答案？
Does it make mostly empathetic but factually untrue answers?
它是否给出了大部分具有同理心但实际上不真实的答案？
What does good enough mean to you?
足够好对你来说意味着什么？
Say it’s mostly factual answers.
说这主要是事实答案。
It’s as good as a computer chess program — not perfect, but quite good relative to human knowledge.
它和计算机国际象棋程序一样好——虽然并不完美，但相对于人类知识来说已经相当不错了。
And anyone can ask anything, like a supercharged Google plus better-functioning Siri with real answers.
任何人都可以提出任何问题，比如功能强大的 Google 加上功能更强大的 Siri，并提供真实的答案。
What do we do with that knowledge?
我们用这些知识做什么？
Okay.
好的。
Well, first of all, that’s the value-alignment part.
嗯，首先，这是价值调整部分。
What you’re saying is that it more or less agrees with the epistemic norms, that is to say, the norm around knowledge that a society has.
你的意思是，它或多或少符合认知规范，即社会所拥有的知识规范。
The other part to ask is about the accountability, like when it makes mistakes, who gets to correct those mistakes?
另一部分要问的是责任问题，比如当它犯错误时，谁来纠正这些错误？
When it’s biased, who gets to participate in overcoming the bias?
当存在偏见时，谁可以参与克服偏见？
Is the source code, is the API, is the data that it uses participatory, or it is known to only a few?
源代码、API、它使用的数据是参与性的，还是只有少数人知道？
What’s the innovation that would do the most to boost empathy?
最能增强同理心的创新是什么？
Definitely open innovation — that is to say, innovation that is co-created to bring technology to people rather than asking people to adapt to technology.
绝对是开放式创新——也就是说，共同创造的创新是为了将技术带给人们，而不是要求人们适应技术。
Do you think the United States today has more empathy than 20 years ago?
你认为今天的美国比20年前更有同理心吗？
I’m not sure that the States is a useful abstraction when you talk about empathy.
当你谈论同理心时，我不确定美国是一个有用的抽象概念。
Empathy are between human beings or at least animals.
同理心存在于人类之间，或者至少存在于动物之间。
Do we have more empathy toward animals than a hundred years ago?
与一百年前相比，我们对动物有更多的同情心吗？
There’s much more factory farming, right?
还有更多的工厂化农业，对吗？
There’s much more factory farming.
还有更多的工厂化农业。
That’s exactly right.
完全正确。
On the other hand, of course, people understand how animals suffer more.
当然，另一方面，人们也理解动物遭受的痛苦更多。
That leads to more people understanding the animal welfare and animal right angles.
这让更多的人了解动物福利和动物正确的角度。
It also leads to innovations, such as the Impossible Burger, the future of meat, and things like that.
它还带来了创新，例如“不可能的汉堡”、肉类的未来等等。
Maybe people eat it only because it actually tastes better and is free of the possible industrial-farming side effects, specifically carbon emissions.
也许人们吃它只是因为它实际上味道更好并且没有可能的工业化农业副作用，特别是碳排放。
But whatever reason you approach those new kinds of meat, I think they’re superior in almost every regard than cost.
但无论你出于什么原因选择这些新型肉类，我认为它们几乎在所有方面都比成本更优越。
And that part, the scientists are working on it too.
这部分，科学家们也在研究。
What’s your view of that old, I think Stalin quotation, that “one death is a tragedy; a million deaths are a statistic”?
我想是斯大林那句古老的话，“一个人的死亡是一场悲剧；一百万人的死亡只是一个统计数字”，你对此有何看法？
Could it be that the evolution of open-source technology, it directs our attention toward the whole, and the telling of a single story becomes somewhat diminished, and therefore we’re less empathetic?
难道是开源技术的发展，它把我们的注意力引向了整体，单个故事的讲述变得有些减弱，因此我们的同理心减弱了？
Well, of course, that between one and one million, there’s many zooming levels.
嗯，当然，在一百万到一百万之间，有很多缩放级别。
I mean, if you look at an OpenStreetMap but you can only zoom to the globe or zoom to an individual block in a city, or even just to an individual level, then that map is not very useful at all.
我的意思是，如果您查看 OpenStreetMap，但只能缩放到全球或城市中的单个街区，甚至只能缩放到单个级别，那么该地图根本没有多大用处。
What’s useful is in the transitional zoom levels that makes sure that people can build a context in their head and connect their experiences with people who are slightly different but not all that different, and that builds common values.
有用的是过渡缩放级别，确保人们可以在头脑中建立一个上下文，并将他们的经历与略有不同但并非完全不同的人联系起来，从而建立共同的价值观。
So that a transition between the zooming levels is much more important than the one and the million level.
因此缩放级别之间的转换比一和百万级别重要得多。
Would it be better if smartphones did not have touch screens?
如果智能手机没有触摸屏会更好吗？
I use, of course, stylus all the time.
当然，我一直使用手写笔。
The touch screens are useful when I don’t have this stylus and keyboard Hanzi, as a fallback, but if the touch screen is the primary interaction button, then, of course, it builds addiction.
当我没有手写笔和汉字键盘时，触摸屏很有用，作为备用，但如果触摸屏是主要交互按钮，那么它当然会让人上瘾。
But say we could magically revert to the days of BlackBerry, and somehow that would stick.
但如果我们可以神奇地回到黑莓时代，这种情况就会持续下去。
Would society be better off, do you think?
你认为社会会变得更好吗？
I’m sure that people would still invent a touch screen.
我确信人们仍然会发明触摸屏。
Say we could avoid the touch screen, and we just stop at BlackBerry.
假设我们可以避免触摸屏，那么我们就停留在黑莓手机上。
Do we use social media in better ways?
我们是否以更好的方式使用社交媒体？
Why?
为什么？
Do we jump to Neuralink directly from the BlackBerry, then?
那么我们是直接从 BlackBerry 跳转到 Neuralink 吗？
It would take several decades, at least.
至少需要几十年的时间。
Right?
正确的？
We have 30, 40 years of BlackBerry, and people are on social media less.
黑莓手机已经使用了 30、40 年，人们使用社交媒体的时间也越来越少。
Is that a better outcome?
这是更好的结果吗？
Do we have better discourse, more empathy?
我们是否有更好的话语、更多的同理心？
Well, that may be the case because in Taiwan, the most popular Reddit equivalent is the PTT.
嗯，情况可能是这样，因为在台湾，最受欢迎的 Reddit 等效项是 PTT。
It’s still terminal-based.
它仍然是基于终端的。
It’s like a late ’90s version of the bulletin board system.
这就像 90 年代末版本的公告板系统。
We do see that it leads to better discourse qualities.
我们确实看到它可以带来更好的话语质量。
How bullish are you on work from a distance?
您对远程工作有多乐观？
This is pandemic time; there’s a lot of data.
现在是大流行时期；有很多数据。
What do you think?
你怎么认为？
Well, working from a distance does not mean that you don’t meet people face to face.
嗯，远距离工作并不意味着你不能面对面地与人见面。
It only means that we transcend space boundaries when we’re talking to each other.
这仅意味着当我们互相交谈时，我们超越了空间界限。
If it is something that you can opt into, then, of course, there are places and ways of work that improve the work quality, and I’m quite bullish on that.
如果这是你可以选择的事情，那么，当然，有一些工作地点和方式可以提高工作质量，我对此非常看好。
But if it is a must, and you have to work from a distance even for the kind of work that doesn’t quite suit this working from distance, then of course it’s going to hurt the quality of work.
但如果这是必须的，而且你必须远程工作，即使是那种不太适合这种远程工作的工作，那么当然会损害工作质量。
Take the major tech companies: Apple, where you’ve worked, Facebook, Google.
以主要科技公司为例：你曾工作过的苹果公司、Facebook、谷歌。
So seven years from now, when the pandemic is clearly over, say in the United States, how much of the current work-from-distance practices will persist?
那么，七年后，当疫情明显结束时（比如在美国），目前的远程工作做法将在多大程度上继续存在？
Or do you think it will all just have gone back to how it was in 2019?
或者你认为一切都会回到2019年的样子吗？
I’ve never been to Cupertino, so all my work with Apple for six years were telework, so I’m biased.
我从来没有去过库比蒂诺，所以我在苹果的六年里所有的工作都是远程办公，所以我有偏见。
I think it’s pretty smooth, and if we don’t like the tools that we’re using for telework, we just make the tools better.
我认为这非常顺利，如果我们不喜欢用于远程办公的工具，我们只是让工具变得更好。
That’s the main idea about open innovation, in that if people don’t like the particular way that a tool is limiting our imaginations, they can always improve on it.
这是开放式创新的主要思想，因为如果人们不喜欢某种工具限制我们想象力的特定方式，他们总是可以对其进行改进。
I think, again, this is not about excluding people from participating in work.
我再次认为，这并不是要排除人们参与工作。
It’s about expanding the idea of face-to-face meetings and the empathy and rough consensus that we can form and scale it to the more remote places.
这是关于扩大面对面会议的理念以及我们可以形成的同理心和粗略共识，并将其扩展到更偏远的地方。
It’s not a replacement.
这不是替代品。
It is an augmentation to the face-to-face form.
它是对面对面形式的增强。
How should the United States handle the regulation of major Chinese tech companies — the service Tiktok or, say, the service of WeChat?
美国应该如何处理对中国主要科技公司——抖音服务或微信服务的监管？
Should we allow major Chinese tech companies to own them?
我们应该允许中国大型科技公司拥有它们吗？
Take a systemic risk system approach.
采取系统性风险系统方法。
Do what the Taiwanese people did in 2014, which is, people on the street deliberated with their own experience working with people who are from the PRC, coming to a consensus on the street, that there’s no pure private-sector companies in the PRC, and party or the state — really the same thing — can replace and swap leadership as they like through the party branches.
做台湾人民2014年所做的那样，就是街上的人用自己与中华人民共和国的人一起工作的经验商议，形成街头共识，中华人民共和国没有纯粹的私营企业，党或国家“实际上是同一件事”可以通过党支部随意更换和互换领导层。
We decided, eventually, that making the infrastructure components in the PRC while they’re a state subsidy looks quite lucrative.
最终，我们决定，在中国制造基础设施组件，同时享受国家补贴，看起来非常有利可图。
Amortized is actually a higher overall cost of ownership because you have to reassess for each upgrade whether the state have already taken over that so-called private phantom.
摊销实际上是更高的总体拥有成本，因为每次升级都必须重新评估国家是否已经接管了所谓的私人幽灵。
The US government should block TikTok, or make sure it’s solved to Oracle or Microsoft?
美国政府应该封锁 TikTok，还是确保向甲骨文或微软解决这个问题？
Or what, concretely, would that mean?
或者说，具体来说，这意味着什么？
I’m saying that all of society deliberation, the style of the 2014 Sunflower, needs to happen for the society to come to a common value about these sort of things, and this is what we call data norm.
我的意思是，所有的社会审议，就像2014年向日葵的风格一样，需要发生，社会才能就这类事情达成共同的价值观，这就是我们所说的数据规范。
Do you think it is normal for facial recognitions and such data that you are just filming yourself as singing and dancing to be aggregated to a single state, of which there’s no jurisdictional accountability of using such data?
你认为面部识别和你自己录歌跳舞这样的数据聚合到一个国家是正常的吗？国家对使用这些数据没有司法责任？
If you think it’s great, as a country, well, more powers.
如果你认为作为一个国家这很棒，那么，更多的权力。
But if you think it’s not great, as a country, then maybe you collectively can find something to do.
但如果你认为作为一个国家这不太好，那么也许你们可以集体找到一些事情做。
Given your position on democracy, are you concerned about the de facto extraterritoriality of European privacy regulation?
鉴于您对民主的立场，您是否担心欧洲隐私监管事实上的治外法权？
Web services marketing to the EU have to meet GDPR, say.
例如，向欧盟营销的网络服务必须符合 GDPR。
There’s not an actual democratic deliberation, but it’s handed down by the European Union.
没有真正的民主审议，但它是由欧盟颁布的。
Right, theoretically, it’s even extraterrestrial.
是的，从理论上讲，它甚至是外星生物。
If these European astronauts, and so on, they’re still regulated by the GDPR.
如果这些欧洲宇航员等等，他们仍然受到 GDPR 的监管。
I think there’s two things going on here.
我认为这里发生了两件事。
One is about the data norm.
一是关于数据规范。
For the EU citizens, it extends by the framework of human rights, and therefore, of course, travels with the individual, not within the territorial jurisdiction.
对于欧盟公民来说，它是在人权框架下延伸的，因此当然是与个人一起旅行，而不是在领土管辖范围内。
The other view, of course, is based on the infrastructure where the data is collected, where the data is used, and the name of data localization and even sovereignty.
当然，另一种观点是基于收集数据的基础设施、使用数据的地方以及数据本地化甚至主权的名称。
We have heard that word, too, when used on data borders.
当我们在数据边界上使用这个词时，我们也听说过这个词。
Just like the example I mentioned of the Singaporean app with Filipino workers in Taiwan buying grocery for their families.
就像我提到的新加坡应用程序的例子一样，菲律宾工人在台湾为家人购买杂货。
It’s by its very nature, three different overlapping jurisdictions, and all have a governing interest in it.
从本质上讲，它是三个不同的重叠司法管辖区，并且都拥有管辖权。
It’s a reality, and GDPR is part of that reality.
这是现实，GDPR 就是现实的一部分。
Why is Finnegans Wake your favorite book?
为什么《芬尼根守灵夜》是你最喜欢的书？
Well, because it’s very complex and complicated, and I can enjoy it without understanding it, just treating it as lyrics like a notebook, literally a book of notes.
嗯，因为它非常复杂复杂，我可以在不理解它的情况下享受它，只是把它当作一本笔记本一样的歌词，字面意义上的一本笔记。
Has it influenced your approach to tech at all?
它是否影响了您对技术的态度？
Yes, I think so, because when I was 20 years old, I would wake up, log in to the Perl IRC channel — that’s Internet Relay Chat — and type “river run,” and then a bot will just paste a random paragraph, literally a random paragraph from Finnegans Wake, which would begin my day’s work.
是的，我这么认为，因为当我 20 岁的时候，我会醒来，登录 Perl IRC 频道 ——这就是互联网中继聊天——然后输入“river run”，然后机器人就会粘贴一个随机段落，实际上是《芬尼根守灵夜》中的随机段落，这将开始我一天的工作。
That’s social, too.
这也是社交的。
Everybody in the chat channel sees it.
聊天频道里的每个人都看到了。
I’m sure that it has influenced our work on Perl, which is full with haiku and poetry and things like that.
我确信它影响了我们在 Perl 上的工作，其中充满了俳句和诗歌之类的东西。
Have you written poems in Perl?
你用 Perl 写过诗吗？
Oh, yeah, of course.
哦，是的，当然。
Are they good?
他们好吗？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
You can check the pugs.hs repository to see them.
您可以检查 pugs.hs 存储库来查看它们。
Now, your ideal of radical transparency and communications — do you think this is appropriate for all organizations and personality types, or just something that’s good for you?
现在，您理想的彻底透明度和沟通 — 您认为这适合所有组织和个性类型，还是只适合您？
What’s a personality type at all?
什么是人格类型？
Like horoscopes?
喜欢星座运势？
People who are very balanced and moderate I think can do better with radical transparency.
我认为那些非常平衡和温和的人可以通过彻底的透明度做得更好。
People who, say, might have very high levels of testosterone — if they see and hear everything being said about them, they might go into a rage or overreact, right?
比如说，睾丸激素水平可能非常高的人——如果他们看到和听到有关他们的一切言论，他们可能会勃然大怒或反应过度，对吧？
Well, going into a rage may also be cathartic.
好吧，发怒也可能是一种宣泄。
It might be, but rages can be dangerous, right?
可能是这样，但愤怒可能很危险，对吧？
Countries going into a rage, people going into a rage.
国家陷入愤怒，人民陷入愤怒。
I don’t know, because outrage is the beginning of social movement.
我不知道，因为愤怒是社会运动的开始。
The thing is, where do you direct the outrage to?
问题是，你要把愤怒指向哪里？
If it’s directed to revenge — that is to say, hurting imaginary or real people — or if it’s directed to discrimination, which is lowering other people’s social status without elevating one’s own, of course, those could be destructive, as you said.
如果它是为了报复——也就是说，伤害想象中的或现实的人——或者如果它是为了歧视，即降低他人的社会地位而不提高自己的社会地位，那么当然，正如你所说，这些可能是破坏性的。
But it could also be directed into co-creation — that is to say, make new institutions so that the old problems that provoked your rage in the first place do not happen again.
但它也可以被引导到共同创造——也就是说，建立新的机构，这样最初激怒你的老问题就不会再次发生。
That’s how democracy grows.
民主就是这样发展的。
I’m also outraged, actually.
其实我也很愤怒。
What do you think of creative ambiguity of a way of postponing disputes?
您如何看待推迟争议的创造性模糊方式？
The European Union often does this.
欧盟经常这样做。
They write a complicated document that means something a bit different to each country.
他们编写了一份复杂的文件，对每个国家来说都有所不同。
They don’t agree.
他们不同意。
They don’t have to agree; it’s never radically transparent.
他们不必同意；它从来都不是完全透明的。
But they revisit it seven or eight years later and do another tweak and just keep on moving down that road.
但七八年后他们会重新审视它，并进行另一次调整，然后继续沿着这条路前进。
Does that offend your sense of radical transparency?
这是否冒犯了你彻底透明的感觉？
Well, these two are certainly orthogonal.
嗯，这两个肯定是正交的。
I can imagine being radically transparent but deliberately moving in a very slow fashion and only act on the lowest of the lower-hanging fruits, I can see merits in that too.
我可以想象完全透明，但故意以非常缓慢的方式行动，并且只对最容易实现的目标采取行动，我也可以看到其中的优点。
I can also see, of course, this slow-moving part being non–radically transparent, and then the main repercussion would probably be that people will cease to feel that it’s relevant to their lives and will not devote their energy to it.
当然，我也可以看到，这个进展缓慢的部分是非彻底透明的，那么主要的影响可能是人们将不再觉得它与他们的生活相关，并且不会投入精力。
Given your own radical transparency, do you think people speak to you differently, always being aware that it’s being recorded or transcribed?
鉴于你自己的彻底透明度，你认为人们对你说话的方式有所不同，总是意识到它正在被记录或转录吗？
Or do you think they just forget about it and become their normal selves?
或者你认为他们只是忘记了它并恢复正常的自己？
Well, I think the better parts of themselves are shown much more visibly.
嗯，我认为他们更好的部分被更明显地展现出来。
That is to say, if they have an agenda that benefits humankind or the planet or the cosmos, they are much more likely to share it because it’s also performative.
也就是说，如果他们有一个有益于人类、地球或宇宙的议程，他们就更有可能分享它，因为它也是表演性的。
They understand that people from the future will see it.
他们明白未来的人们会看到它。
The parts of themselves destined for the next quarter only of linear, individual growth or GDP growth at the cost or expense of future generations, that part doesn’t seem to show.
它们本身的部分注定在下个季度只会以牺牲后代为代价或牺牲子孙后代的线性、个人增长或 GDP 增长，但这部分似乎没有表现出来。
Larry Wall once said that Perl is designed around laziness, hubris, and impatience.
Larry Wall 曾经说过 Perl 是围绕懒惰、傲慢和不耐烦而设计的。
Which of those qualities do you think most appeal to you?
您认为以下哪些品质最吸引您？
Laziness.
懒惰。
Why?
为什么？
You don’t seem lazy.
你看起来并不懒惰。
You’ve done a tremendous amount.
你已经做了很多事情。
Well, first of all, I’ve done a tremendous amount precisely because I design the spaces for the people who care about things to make things happen.
嗯，首先，我做了很多事情，因为我为那些关心事情的人设计了空间，让事情发生。
Certainly not me, personally, that have done those things; I just hold the space.
当然不是我个人做过这些事；我只是保持空间。
The second is that laziness also means that you do not over-scare yourself.
第二，懒惰也意味着你不要过度害怕自己。
You evaluate — this quite lazy evaluation — evaluate the parameters, the input, and so on, as the situation calls it.
您评估 — 这种相当懒惰的评估 — 评估参数、输入等等，视情况而定。
That also enables a much more balanced work-life balance, I guess.
我想，这也可以实现更加平衡的工作与生活平衡。
What is a way the world could use the incentive of fun more productively?
世界可以通过什么方式更有效地利用乐趣的激励？
Use humor over rumor.
用幽默来代替谣言。
What does that mean, specifically?
具体来说，这是什么意思？
In Taiwan, whenever there’s a trending, even end-to-end encrypted channels disinformation campaign, there are people who voluntarily report that, just like flagging email as spam — dedicated not to the government, certainly, but to the social sector, with a crowdsource fact-checking mechanism called Coach facts and also the Taiwan FactCheck Center, Michael Penn and so on, part of the international fact-checking network.
在台湾，每当出现流行的、甚至是端到端的加密渠道虚假信息活动时，就会有人主动举报，就像将电子邮件标记为垃圾邮件一样——当然，不是专门针对政府，而是针对社会部门，有一个名为Coachfacts的众包事实核查机制，还有台湾事实核查中心、Michael Penn等国际事实核查网络的一部分。
The trending rumors are met with fact-checkers almost immediately.
流行的谣言几乎立即就会受到事实核查者的关注。
And our ministries, who has teams of participation officers who talk to hashtags .
我们的各部委拥有与主题标签对话的参与官员团队。
.
。
.
。
The Ministry of Health and Welfare participation officer literally lives with this dog and so can meet the rumors within a couple hours, and wrote out very funny dog memes that just respond to the disinformation.
卫生和福利部的参与官员实际上与这只狗住在一起，因此可以在几个小时内满足谣言，并写出非常有趣的狗模因，只是对虚假信息做出回应。
For example, this one is about mask, and this says, “Why do you wear a mask?” “Well, to protect yourself from your own unwashed hands.” Say that’s a very individualistic incentive.
例如，这个是关于面具的，它说：“你为什么戴面具？” “好吧，保护自己免受未洗的手的伤害。”可以说这是一种非常个人主义的激励。
Or, “Why do you observe social distancing when you find it hard to measure?” “We’re measuring it in terms of dogs.
或者，“当你发现社交距离难以衡量时，为什么还要观察它？” “我们正在用狗来衡量它。
When you’re outdoor, two dogs away, indoor, three Shiba Inus away,” and so on.
当你在户外时，距离两只狗，在室内时，距离三只柴犬，”等等。
The idea is that before people go to sleep, even if they see both the conspiracy theory, they also see this humor because it travels very quickly, go viral.
这个想法是，在人们入睡之前，即使他们看到了阴谋论，他们也会看到这种幽默，因为它传播得非常快，病毒式传播。
By the time that they go to sleep and form long-term associations in their minds with the keywords such as masks or social distancing, they think of something fun.
当他们入睡并在脑海中与口罩或社交距离等关键词形成长期联想时，他们会想到一些有趣的事情。
And that enables more pro-social behavior.
这使得更多的亲社会行为成为可能。
Arguably, contemporary Taiwanese culture is really quite gentle in a nice way.
可以说，当代台湾文化确实是相当温和的。
Say you were in one of the less liberal parts of Eastern Europe or the Balkans, and the slogan was “Humor over rumor.” Do you think it would work as well as it has in Taiwan?
假设你在东欧或巴尔干地区不太自由的地区之一，口号是“幽默胜于谣言”。你认为它会像在台湾那样有效吗？
Or this would be nastier and less empathetic?
或者这会更肮脏、更缺乏同理心？
We know that humor is not the same as sarcasm, for example, or as toxic attacks that make fun of someone.
例如，我们知道幽默不同于讽刺，也不同于取笑某人的有毒攻击。
A humorist makes fun of oneself or makes fun with someone, but it’s never a kind of aggression.
幽默家会取笑自己或取笑某人，但这绝不是一种攻击。
When I say humor, I mean specifically humor and not any kind of comedic style.
当我说幽默时，我特指幽默，而不是任何喜剧风格。
Of course, there are comedic styles that doesn’t work and that will very quickly actually reinforce conspiracy-theory thinking.
当然，有些喜剧风格是行不通的，而且很快就会强化阴谋论思维。
How much of humor do you think is at someone else’s expense?
你认为有多少幽默是以牺牲别人为代价的？
Say you watch Seinfeld.
假设你看《宋飞正传》。
They’re quite brutal to each other, right, even though they’re friends.
他们对彼此很残酷，对吧，即使他们是朋友。
I don’t think that’s humor, by the way.
顺便说一句，我认为这不是幽默。
What is it?
它是什么？
Well, it is, of course, comedic.
嗯，这当然是喜剧。
It makes fun of people.
它取笑人们。
But to me, humor is makes fun with someone or makes fun of oneself.
但对我来说，幽默就是取笑某人或取笑自己。
What is the future of blockchain in Taiwan?
区块链在台湾的前景如何？
Well, it will just keep growing, I guess.
嗯，我想它会继续增长。
But used for what purposes?
但用于什么目的呢？
What’s the killer app for blockchain?
区块链的杀手级应用是什么？
Ten years from now, what will I be doing with it?
十年后，我会用它做什么？
What’s the killer app for relational databases, again?
关系数据库的杀手级应用是什么？
Well, there are many kinds of relational databases.
关系数据库有很多种。
It’s not clear that blockchain is the one emerging from markets as the preferred solution.
目前尚不清楚区块链是否是市场上出现的首选解决方案。
Visa has databases.
Visa有数据库。
Those work well; it’s a huge company.
这些效果很好；这是一家大公司。
What’s the competitor for blockchain?
区块链的竞争对手是什么？
That’s exactly right.
完全正确。
Blockchain is just one implementation of a broad swath of technology known as distributed ledgers or DLTs, and relational databases, again, could be distributed.
区块链只是分布式账本或 DLT 等广泛技术的一种实现，而关系数据库也可以是分布式的。
If people want easy accountability or auditability, they can use some of the technologies originated from blockchain.
如果人们想要简单的问责制或可审计性，他们可以使用一些源自区块链的技术。
In that sense, Git is a blockchain because it’s a chain of blocks.
从这个意义上说，Git 是一个区块链，因为它是一个区块链。
Of course, Git is the killer app of open-source, decentralized working.
当然，Git 是开源、去中心化工作的杀手级应用程序。
If you think only of the cryptocurrency applications, I don’t think that it will overtake the central bank anytime soon in Taiwan.
如果你只考虑加密货币应用，我认为它不会很快在台湾取代中央银行。
I think it only is of value in the cryptocurrency sense if the people have very low trust in the fiat, in the central bank.
我认为，只有当人们对法定货币、中央银行的信任度很低时，它才在加密货币意义上有价值。
If you mean like a ledger technology that keeps people accountable and honest across jurisdictions, and more multiple writers for things like environmental science, and things like smart contracts for labor — like for migrant workers, as I mentioned at the very beginning — those can see useful work of distributed ledger technologies, and blockchain is just more implementation detail.
如果你的意思是像一种账本技术，让人们在不同的司法管辖区都负责任和诚实，以及环境科学和劳动力智能合约之类的东西的更多作者——就像我一开始提到的农民工一样——那些人可以看到分布式账本技术的有用工作，而区块链只是更多的实施细节。
How do you think it mattered for Taiwan that democracy and information technology came to the country at more or less the same time?
您认为民主和信息技术或多或少同时来到台湾对台湾有什么影响？
Well, of course, that means that we see democracy as a set of technologies, social technologies.
当然，这意味着我们将民主视为一套技术、社会技术。
To us, technologies are not always industrial; it could also be social.
对我们来说，技术并不总是工业性的；它也可以是社交的。
The set of constitutional amendments, of which another one or few is going on right now, shows that even the constitution, the kernel of democracy, is technology — that people can contribute to it just like sending pull requests to the Linux kernel.
一系列宪法修正案，其中还有一个或几个正在进行中，表明即使是民主的核心宪法也是技术——人们可以为它做出贡献，就像向 Linux 内核发送拉取请求一样。
How did Taiwan become such a nice country so quickly?
台湾怎么这么快就变成了一个如此美好的国家？
Well, maybe the food is good, and bubble tea helps too.
嗯，也许食物很好，珍珠奶茶也有帮助。
What’s the best food in Taiwan, and where do you find it?
台湾最好吃的食物是什么？在哪里可以找到？
Well, I think the rough consensus is that you can consult the Michelin Guide, which operates in Taiwan in a lot of municipalities.
嗯，我认为粗略的共识是，你可以查阅米其林指南，该指南在台湾很多直辖市都有运作。
But of course, being an oyster vegetarian, the majority of which is I don’t really pursue.
但当然，作为一个牡蛎素食者，其中大部分是我并不真正追求的。
You have to be your own guy.
你必须成为你自己的人。
How do you think your politics have been influenced by Taiwan’s Aboriginal communities?
您认为台湾原住民社区对您的政治有何影响？
The indigenous communities that I’m more familiar with is the Atayal and the Amis, the former because I spent quite a few months actually, if not a year, right after dropping out of the middle school, because my mom was co-founding experimental primary school in the Atayal mountains in collaboration with the indigenous people there.
我比较熟悉的原住民社区是泰雅族和阿美族，前者是因为我中学辍学后，实际上花了好几个月甚至一年的时间，因为我妈妈正在泰雅山与那里的原住民合作创办实验小学。
Actually, the students there also learn the indigenous perspective.
事实上，那里的学生也学到了土著观点。
I really feel liberated from a written culture, that this orally preserved culture really takes me out of this human-centric point of view, in the view that the mountains and rivers are long-lived spirits and we’re just transient stewards that work with them.
我真的感到从书面文化中解放出来，这种口头保存的文化确实让我摆脱了这种以人为中心的观点，认为山河是长寿的精灵，而我们只是与它们一起工作的短暂管家。
I think that really has influenced my politics a lot to be less human centric.
我认为这确实对我的政治产生了很大影响，让我变得不那么以人为中心。
The Amis because I think they’re a matriarchy and so quite useful to remind people that in Taiwan, with more than 20 national languages, there’s various different gender stereotypes going on.
阿美族，因为我认为他们是母系社会，因此非常有用地提醒人们，在拥有 20 多种民族语言的台湾，存在着各种不同的性别刻板印象。
And once you have 20 different stereotypes, it becomes a rainbow, and it helps people to break out of the binary thinking when it comes to gender, but also to other categories.
一旦你有了 20 种不同的刻板印象，它就会变成一道彩虹，它可以帮助人们在性别以及其他类别方面打破二元思维。
How useful a way is it of conceptualizing your politics to think of it as a mix of some Taiwanese Aboriginal traditions mixed in with Daoism, experience in programming, and then your own theory of humor and fun?
将你的政治概念化为一些台湾原住民传统与道教、编程经验以及你自己的幽默和乐趣理论的混合体，这种方法有多有用？
And if you put all of that together, the result is Audrey Tang’s politics.
如果你把所有这些放在一起，结果就是奥黛丽·唐的政治。
Correct or not?
正确与否？
Well as of now, of course.
当然，到目前为止。
But of course, I’m also growing, like a distributed ledger.
但当然，我也在成长，就像分布式账本一样。
At the margin, what’s the new influence on your thought in addition to those sources?
顺便问一下，除了这些来源之外，还有哪些新的因素对你的思想产生了影响？
I just read again the Mandarin translation of Ted Chiang’s novel, collection, Exhalation.
我刚刚又读了特德·蒋的小说集《呼气》的国语译本。
I already read the English one, but the translation book just arrived, so I read that again.
我已经读过英文版的了，但翻译书刚到，所以我又看了一遍。
And so, that’s on the margins.
所以，这还处于边缘。
I learned about the life cycle of software projects and so on.
了解了软件项目的生命周期等等。
I think that one is really good.
我认为那一个真的很好。
What else from Chinese literature has influenced you?
中国文学还有什么对你产生过影响？
Of course, there’s not only the Tao Te Ching, there’s this whole literary tradition that began with Laozi.
当然，不仅有《道德经》，还有从老子开始的整个文学传统。
Chuang Tzu, of course, is of a lot of influence to me.
当然，庄子对我影响很大。
The collection of poems the Shih Ching, also, and of course also the I Ching, the original binary thinking.
诗集《诗经》，当然还有《易经》，原始的二元思想。
Of course, the thing about the Book of Change is that it teaches about, the only thing that is immobile, that would not change, is change itself, and how to work with the change, to face, to accept, to deal with it, and let go of it.
当然，《易经》的意义就在于，它教导的是，唯一不动的、不会改变的，就是变化本身，以及如何应对变化、面对变化、接受变化、应对变化、放下变化。
And I think it’s a core teaching of the I Ching.
我认为这是《易经》的核心教义。
How about contemporary Chinese fiction, or is that somehow too anti-empathetic?
中国当代小说怎么样，或者说这是否太反同理心了？
I enjoyed The Three-Body Problem trilogy.
我很喜欢《三体》三部曲。
That’s contemporary Chinese fiction, isn’t it?
这就是中国当代小说，不是吗？
From Taiwanese culture, what has influenced you most?
台湾文化中，什么对你影响最大？
Taiwanese cinema from the 1990s — does that matter for you, or that’s orthogonal?
20 世纪 90 年代的台湾电影 ——这对你来说重要吗，还是正交的？
Well, of course, I watch the artwork done within the Taiwanese renaissance of filmmakers and books and so on, but I wouldn’t say that any of them influenced me to such a high degree as the classics have.
嗯，当然，我也看过台湾文艺复兴时期的电影人和书籍等作品，但我不会说它们对我的影响程度没有经典那么高。
So I’ll probably have to say that of course I’m influenced one way or another, but not in a major part of my thought.
所以我可能不得不说，我当然受到了这样或那样的影响，但不是我思想的主要部分。
Which Western anarchists, if any, have shaped your thought?
哪些西方无政府主义者（如果有的话）塑造了您的思想？
Well, that’s a really good question, isn’t it?
嗯，这是一个非常好的问题，不是吗？
Well, I don’t know.
好吧，我不知道。
I’ve read, of course, An Anarchist FAQ, the anarchists’ handbook online, and also The Illuminatus!
当然，我读过《无政府主义者常见问题解答》、《无政府主义者在线手册》以及《光明会》！
Trilogy, which may or may not count as anarchist.
三部曲，可能算也可能不算无政府主义者。
That, of course, has really left an impression to me.
当然，这确实给我留下了深刻的印象。
I think the main source of inspiration I draw off — and that’s why I call myself a conservative anarchist — is from the more Eastern traditions, the Daoist tradition, the Chuang Tzu tradition, and more definitely from Kojin, a Japanese anarchist thinker.
我认为我的主要灵感来源————这就是为什么我称自己为保守的无政府主义者————来自更东方的传统、道家传统、庄子传统，更确切地说是来自日本无政府主义思想家Kojin。
To what extent do you understand Daoism as standing in opposition to a more hierarchical Confucian view?
您在多大程度上理解道家思想与等级森严的儒家观点的对立？
Or do you think it’s simply a separate doctrine?
或者你认为这只是一个单独的教义？
By being a Daoist, do you view yourself as opposed to Confucianism?
作为一个道家，你是否认为自己与儒家相对立？
Well, the Daoist isn’t quite opposed to anything.
嗯，道家并不反对任何事情。
That’s the thing with Daoists, right?
道教就是这样吧？
We’re always making space so that opposition can grow into common values and innovation.
我们总是创造空间，让反对意见能够发展成为共同的价值观和创新。
I think that’s something that a Confucian approach works, too, except for the Confucianism that is by coding, essentially, the rights, the norms, the best practices norms.
我认为这也是儒家方法所起作用的，除了儒家思想本质上是通过编码权利、规范、最佳实践规范。
For a Daoist, of course, there’s no best practice.
对于道家来说，当然没有最好的修行方法。
There’s just practices.
只有实践。
The best practice is maybe just to share and let go of your practices and be humble.
最好的做法可能就是分享并放弃你的做法并保持谦虚。
How do you think Singapore differs in this regard?
您认为新加坡在这方面有何不同？
Is there a different understanding of Daoism there?
那里对道教有不同的理解吗？
More emphasis on Confucianism?
更重视儒家思想？
I haven’t been to Singapore.
我没去过新加坡。
I can’t answer that.
我无法回答这个问题。
Never?
绝不？
No.
不。
I’m surprised.
我很惊讶。
What would improve Taiwanese education the most?
什么最能改善台湾的教育？
That’s an interesting thought, but maybe Neuralink.
这是一个有趣的想法，但也许是 Neuralink。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
In the meantime.
同时。
In the meantime.
同时。
Well, I think that the shift from a literacy-based, standardized answer, rote memory, standardized test, “the teachers know the best” into a competence-based education, which is, the people are producers of data and media and narratives — that really helps.
嗯，我认为从基于读写能力、标准化答案、死记硬背、标准化测试、“老师最了解”转变为基于能力的教育，即人们是数据、媒体和叙述的生产者，这确实有帮助。
On the other hand, I’m biased because I’m part of the K-to-12 curriculum committee that put this into action starting last year.
另一方面，我也有偏见，因为我是 K-to-12 课程委员会的成员，该委员会从去年开始将这一计划付诸实施。
Do you have any sense how that’s going?
你知道这是怎么回事吗？
I know it’s only a year, but what are you seeing that’s different?
我知道只有一年的时间，但你看到了什么不同？
Yes, I think it’s going quite well.
是的，我认为进展顺利。
The cram schools, for example, instead of putting people into long hours trying to memorize standardized answers, are now offering cram schools on hiking and maybe kayaking and all sorts of outdoor group activities, and also help on the humanitarian aid overseas.
例如，补习班不再让人们花很长时间记住标准化答案，而是提供徒步旅行、皮划艇和各种户外团体活动的补习班，并帮助海外人道主义援助。
Even though travel is restricted now, we can still help through teleconference and so on.
尽管现在出行受到限制，但我们仍然可以通过电话会议等方式提供帮助。
Yes, there’s a lot more emphasis on social responsibility, starting from a more tender age, rather than just individualistic competition between people and people.
是的，从很小的时候开始，人们就更加强调社会责任，而不仅仅是人与人之间的个人主义竞争。
You’re working, of course, in Taiwanese government.
当然，你在台湾政府工作。
What’s the biggest thing wrong with economists?
经济学家最大的问题是什么？
You mean the magazine?
你是说杂志吗？
No, no, the people, economists as thinkers.
不，不，人民，经济学家作为思想家。
What’s their biggest defect or flaw?
他们最大的缺点或缺陷是什么？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I haven’t met an economist that I didn’t like, so I don’t think there’s any particular personality flaws there.
我还没有遇到过我不喜欢的经济学家，所以我不认为他有什么特别的性格缺陷。
A few questions about the pandemic.
关于疫情的几个问题。
How much of Taiwan’s success do you think was due to government’s openness, and how much do you think was due to the fact that in Taiwan, standards for privacy are different than in the West, and there’s a certain acceptance of government protocol?
您认为台湾的成功有多少归功于政府的开放性，您认为有多少是由于台湾的隐私标准与西方不同，并且对政府礼节有一定程度的接受？
Are higher, I’m sure, yes, and more clearly spelled out.
我敢肯定，是的，更高，而且阐明得更清楚。
First of all, having a clearly-spelled-out perimeter in Taiwan when it comes to privacy and a strong civil right movement that literally fought for those freedoms — and the memories are still fresh — really helps the conversation because anything that tried to encroach on the basic freedoms is immediately met with the counterargument, “Do you want to go back to the martial law?” or “Do we want to go back to the White Terror?”
首先，台湾在隐私方面有一个明确的边界，以及一场真正为这些自由而奋斗的强大民权运动——“记忆犹新”——这确实有助于对话，因为任何试图侵犯基本自由的行为都会立即遭到反驳，“你想回到戒严法吗？”或者“我们想回到白色恐怖吗？”
Of course, the argument would be very strong, and so the people who advocate for less privacy — their argument would be a nonstarter.
当然，这个论点会非常有力，因此那些主张减少隐私的人——他们的论点将是不可能的。
And so I think it really helps to conserve the societal energy to work with the data that’s already being collected.
因此，我认为这确实有助于节省社会精力来处理已经收集的数据。
Just use it in a way creatively to counter the pandemic instead of inventing new ways to collect data, which always has uncertain privacy properties.
只需创造性地使用它来应对流行病，而不是发明新的数据收集方法，因为这种方法总是具有不确定的隐私属性。
So I think of course that helps.
所以我认为这当然有帮助。
Now, my country, the United States, has made many, many mistakes at an almost metaphysical level.
现在，我的国家美国，在近乎形而上学的层面上犯了很多很多错误。
What is it in the United States that those mistakes have come from?
美国的这些错误到底从何而来？
What’s our deeper failing behind all those mistakes?
所有这些错误背后，我们更深层次的失败是什么？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Isn’t America this grand experiment to keep making mistakes and correcting them in the open and share it with the world?
美国这不正是不断犯错误并公开纠正错误并与世界分享的伟大实验吗？
That’s the American experiment.
这就是美国的实验。
Have we started correcting them yet?
我们已经开始纠正它们了吗？
I’m sure that you have.
我确信你有。
Okay, I’m delighted to hear that.
好的，我很高兴听到这个消息。
How much did Taiwan rely on privately written apps to combat the pandemic?
台湾在多大程度上依赖私人编写的应用程序来抗击这一流行病？
Actually, civic tech, which, I guess, could also qualify as privately coded, is different in the sense that how it works is open for anyone who wants to fork — that is to say, to take it to a different direction.
事实上，我认为公民技术也可以被视为私人编码，它的不同之处在于它的工作方式对任何想要分叉的人都是开放的——也就是说，将其带向不同的方向。
While it’s true that original mask availability model wasn’t open-source, the API was open, and open-source clones and derivatives from the OpenStreetMap community, from various other communities, very quickly sprouted.
虽然最初的掩模可用性模型确实不是开源的，但 API 是开放的，来自 OpenStreetMap 社区和其他各个社区的开源克隆和衍生品很快就出现了。
We have more than 140, a majority of which are open innovations, and even the original mask availability map became open source after a couple months.
我们有超过 140 个，其中大部分是开放式创新，甚至最初的掩模可用性图在几个月后也开源了。
If you keep working in the open, working out loud, even the most privately held corporation, such as Google, eventually agreed to make the parts of the counter-pandemic, the mask availability, and so on, and develop them in the open.
如果你继续公开工作，大声工作，即使是最私营的公司，比如谷歌，最终也会同意制造抗疫、口罩供应等部分，并公开开发它们。
Given Taiwan’s remarkable success with the pandemic, its amazing success with high-quality semiconductor chips, why are there in relative terms so few successful Taiwanese software companies?
鉴于台湾在应对疫情方面取得了显著成功，在高质量半导体芯片方面取得了惊人的成功，为什么相对而言，成功的台湾软件公司却如此之少？
And to what features of the Taiwanese psyche do you attribute that?
您认为台湾人的心理特征是什么？
I don’t know, TSMC writes a lot of software.
我不知道，台积电写了很多软件。
I think it’s just consumer software, like B2C software, it’s true.
我认为这只是消费类软件，就像 B2C 软件一样，这是事实。
I mean, Taiwan has a unicorn now — although I don’t usually use that word — company, Appier, that basically is entirely 2B.
我的意思是，台湾现在有一个独角兽 ——虽然我通常不使用这个词 —— 公司，Appier，基本上完全是2B。
They enable businesses to deliver insights from their interactions and refactor the online experiences and so on.
它们使企业能够从互动中提供见解并重构在线体验等。
But I’m sure that Pizza Hut or any company that deployed Appier technology would not probably feature a “Powered by Appier” kind of way, as the “Powered by Intel” or “Powered by ARM” marker in their websites.
但我确信必胜客或任何部署 Appier 技术的公司可能不会像其网站上的“Powered by Intel”或“Powered by ARM”标记那样采用“Powered by Appier”之类的方式。
There are very successful Taiwanese software companies.
台湾有非常成功的软件公司。
They are new in the software world.
它们是软件世界中的新事物。
Trend Micro is another one.
趋势科技是另一个。
But because these are less directly to users, to customers, and so maybe they are less well known, that’s a fact.
但由于这些不太直接面向用户、客户，因此可能不太为人所知，这是事实。
The Taiwanese psyche, I think, is mostly about being okay with that.
我认为，台湾人的心态主要是对此表示同意。
I guess the hashtag #TaiwanCanHelp, #TaiwanIsHelping really says it on the tin, that we don’t quite do this egoism.
我想标签#TaiwanCanHelp、#TaiwanIsHelping 确实是明摆着的，我们不太做这种利己主义。
You don’t have to thank Taiwan every 20 seconds if our innovations have helped you.
如果我们的创新对你有帮助，你不必每20秒感谢一次台湾。
We really just want the world to be better.
我们真的只是希望世界变得更好。
Do you ever worry that Taiwan has had so much success against COVID-19 that now the country is painted into a kind of corner, unwilling to give up its grand prize, and it just won’t be able to open to other places for a long time?
您是否担心台湾在抗击新冠肺炎（COVID-19）方面取得如此巨大的成功，现在却陷入了困境，不愿意放弃自己的大奖，而且在很长一段时间内无法向其他地方开放？
Or do you think testing will manage?
或者你认为测试会成功吗？
I think that once the vaccine is here around the turn of the year .
我认为疫苗在年底左右就会问世。
.
。
.
。
I’m sure that by Q1 next year, when people are vaccinated, we will open.
我确信到明年第一季度，当人们接种疫苗时，我们就会开放。
That is what the scientists are saying.
这就是科学家们所说的。
If you’re recommending for a visitor an ideal trip to Taiwan, obviously they fly into Taipei.
如果您向游客推荐一次理想的台湾之旅，显然他们会飞往台北。
There’s plenty to do and see in Taipei — National Museum — but where else should they go, for you?
台北有很多值得参观的地方 — 国家博物馆 — 但是对于您来说，还有什么地方可以去呢？
Well, the Pescadores, the Penghu Islands are great too.
嗯，澎湖列岛也很棒。
I mean, Taiwan is beautiful islands, and it’s plural; it’s not only the mainland of Taiwan but also the Pescadores Islands, the Orchid Island.
我的意思是，台湾是美丽的岛屿，而且它是复数的；不仅是台湾大陆，还有澎湖列岛、兰屿。
There’s many other islands other than the main island of Taiwan for you to enjoy.
除了台湾本岛之外，还有许多其他岛屿可供您游览。
What’s your favorite Chinese dynasty and why?
您最喜欢的中国朝代是哪个？为什么？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I don’t have a favorite Chinese dynasty.
我没有最喜欢的中国王朝。
Do you have a favorite GPS location?
您有最喜欢的 GPS 位置吗？
My home.
我的家。
But the Tang dynasty I thought would be your answer.
但我想唐朝就是你的答案。
There’s the Silk Road, right?
那里有丝绸之路，对吗？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I haven’t lived in the Tang dynasty.
我没有生活在唐朝。
Xi’an is the capital.
西安是首都。
I haven’t lived in the Tang dynasty.
我没有生活在唐朝。
I read about the Tang dynasty.
我读过有关唐朝的书。
And although my family name I guess is the same character as the Tang dynasty, it never really brought me closer to any particular dynasties.
虽然我猜我的姓氏和唐朝是同一个字，但它从来没有真正让我更接近任何特定的朝代。
As a Taiwanese, how do you think you understand earlier Chinese history in maybe a different way than Chinese mainlanders would?
作为一名台湾人，您认为您对中国早期历史的理解方式可能与中国大陆人不同？
Well, I don’t know.
好吧，我不知道。
I mean, I identify mostly as homo sapiens.
我的意思是，我主要认为自己是智人。
I mean, we’re all descendants of some East African common ancestor.
我的意思是，我们都是一些东非共同祖先的后裔。
When you say your home, I immediately think of Lucy, which strictly speaking isn’t homo sapiens, but the GPS location would be quite similar.
当你说你的家时，我立即想到露西，严格来说，她不是智人，但 GPS 位置会很相似。
That’s the view that I take.
这就是我的观点。
Of course, on the land of the Eurasian plate, there’s many cultures and civilizations.
当然，在亚欧板块的土地上，存在着多种文化和文明。
Whether you call it Chinese or not is quite beside the point.
你是否称其为中国人，这根本不是重点。
The main interest for me is how those cultures transfer and learn from each other and make cultural innovations, such as Zen, which is a transcultural conversation between the Buddhist tradition and the Daoist tradition.
我主要感兴趣的是这些文化如何相互转移、相互学习、进行文化创新，比如禅宗，它是佛教传统和道教传统之间的跨文化对话。
That interests me more than whether you call a particular dynasty Chinese or not.
这比你是否称某个朝代为中国人更让我感兴趣。
For the Qin dynasty, the Yuan dynasty, that’s a very interesting way to call a dynasty.
对于秦朝、元朝来说，这是一个非常有趣的王朝称呼方式。
I believe no Chinese person from the mainland would have given me that answer.
我相信没有一个大陆的中国人会给我这个答案。
Another historical question: when you read about the Taiping Rebellion, for whom are you rooting, the rebels or the government?
另一个历史问题：当你读到太平天国运动时，你支持谁，是造反派还是政府？
Yes, the Taiping Rebellion, the Jesus-worshipping religion.
是的，太平天国运动，崇拜耶稣的宗教。
There’s a millenarian sense to it that’s a bit like some of tech utopianism, right?
它有一种千禧年的感觉，有点像科技乌托邦主义，对吧？
That the word should become an open place.
那这个词应该成为一个开放的地方。
It was a document — I think it was Taiping Zhao Shu or something — that has a lot of tech utopianism in it, but I don’t think it’s ever put into practice.
这是一份文件——“我认为是太平天国赵术之类的”——里面有很多科技乌托邦主义，但我认为它从未付诸实践。
If you view it from an admiring, science-fiction-novel kind of way, I think you can definitely root for it.
如果你以一种欣赏、科幻小说的方式来看待它，我想你绝对可以支持它。
But I don’t think the Taiping Tianguo actually deployed what’s described in the Taiping Zhao Shu to any significant degree.
但我认为太平天国实际上并没有在任何程度上部署《太平天国招数》中所描述的内容。
Which are the most important remnants of Japanese influence remaining in Taiwan?
日本在台湾的影响力最重要的残余有哪些？
Well, the emphasis on public health, the fact that people see that working in the medical and public health professions as the high and noble cause of calling.
嗯，对公共卫生的重视，事实上，人们认为从事医疗和公共卫生职业是崇高的使命。
I think that was introduced by the Japanese colonial rule.
我认为这是日本殖民统治造成的。
Well, of course, there’s the political part of it, because the Japanese really didn’t like Taiwanese going into politics, or law for that matter.
嗯，当然，还有政治部分，因为日本人真的不喜欢台湾人涉足政治或法律领域。
The emphasis on public health and medicine and Medicare, I think that really is one of the legacies.
我认为对公共卫生、医学和医疗保险的重视确实是遗产之一。
The organization of streets and shops in Taiwan, especially Taipei, feels quite Japanese to me.
台湾，尤其是台北的街道和商店的组织给我的感觉很日本。
Do you have the same impression?
你是否也有同样的印象呢？
There are parts of Taipei that feel quite Japanese, of course.
当然，台北的某些地方感觉很日本。
The cabinet office, the Executive Yuan, and the presidential office were both buildings of that era.
内阁府、行政院、总统府都是那个时代的建筑。
Of course, they were also learning from European architects, so it’s also very transcultural.
当然，他们也向欧洲建筑师学习，所以也非常跨文化。
In both Japan and Taiwan, baseball is fairly popular, as it is in the United States, but most countries reject baseball altogether.
在日本和台湾，棒球都相当受欢迎，就像在美国一样，但大多数国家完全拒绝棒球。
Do you have a sense of why Taiwanese have welcomed baseball?
你知道为什么台湾人如此欢迎棒球吗？
Is it just historical accident, or revealing of something deeper?
这只是历史的偶然，还是揭示了更深层次的东西？
I haven’t considered that question, maybe because when I was young I couldn’t participate in any kind of sport, baseball included.
我没有考虑过这个问题，可能是因为我年轻的时候不能参加任何运动，包括棒球。
I’ve never thought too much about sports.
我从来没有对体育想太多。
eSport, of course, I have thought about quite a bit.
电子竞技，当然，我也想了很多。
But of course, we’re not here to talk about Magic: The Gathering, which I can talk for hours.
当然，我们不是来谈论万智牌的，我可以谈论几个小时。
What’s the most popular eSport in Taiwan?
台湾最受欢迎的电子竞技是什么？
Well, that’s a really good question.
嗯，这是一个非常好的问题。
I think, by the current definition of eSport, it will probably be Wei Chi — Go — which is an intellectual game that’s played on stones and large boards, and of which AlphaGo, of course, showed that machines can play too.
我想，按照目前电子竞技的定义，很可能就是围棋 —— 围棋—— ，这是一种在石头和大棋盘上进行的智力游戏，当然，AlphaGo 证明了机器也可以玩这种游戏。
It’s still very popular in Taiwan, as with Gomoku, also known as Renju, and Xiangqi, the elephant chess.
它在台湾仍然很受欢迎，就像五子棋（也称为连珠）和象棋（象棋）一样。
I don’t know how to translate that, actually.
事实上，我不知道如何翻译。
Various board games, and these are —
各种棋盘游戏，这些是 -
Shogi, right?
将棋，对吧？
Yes, that’s right.
是的，没错。
Well, Shogi is a slightly different rule and played in Japan.
嗯，将棋的规则略有不同，是在日本玩的。
But yes, board games that are turn-based and moved, of course, nowadays all into the electronic realm remained of the lowest threshold to join, and therefore are very popular.
但是，是的，回合制和移动的桌游，当然，如今所有进入电子领域的加入门槛仍然很低，因此很受欢迎。
What’s your favorite eSport?
你最喜欢的电子竞技是什么？
As I mentioned, Magic: The Gathering, but I don’t play it much anymore.
正如我提到的，《万智牌》，但我不再玩它了。
I used to play it a lot.
我以前经常玩。
Because of addiction.
因为上瘾。
It’s like a touch-screen smartphone.
它就像触摸屏智能手机。
No. Because I was making the software that enabled people to play Magic: The Gathering without paying Wizards of the Coast.
不。因为我正在开发一款软件，让人们无需向威世智付费即可玩万智牌。
It was a real software project that I was working on, the Magic Suitcase.
这是我正在开发的一个真实的软件项目，Magic Suitcase。
Also, working with the Apprentice, with a drafting mechanism, so that people don’t have to be locked into Wizards of the Coast and so on.
另外，与学徒合作，有一个起草机制，这样人们就不必被锁定在海岸奇才之类的东西中。
To me, it also feels liberating, so that people — even with no money and who are living very modest means and so on — can enjoy the game and essentially creating their own rules.
对我来说，这也让人感到解放，这样人们——即使没有钱，生活水平非常低等——也可以享受游戏，并基本上创造自己的规则。
Why is it you think that Taiwan has been so much more open and accepting of LGBTQ than most or maybe all other parts of Asia?
为什么您认为台湾比亚洲大多数甚至所有其他地区更加开放和接受 LGBTQ？
Well, first of all, I think that’s because, as I mentioned, there is more than one norm going on, even in the ethnic Han.
嗯，首先，我认为这是因为，正如我所提到的，即使在汉族中，也存在不止一种规范。
There is the Taiwanese Holo, Taiwanese Hakka.
有台湾的赫罗、台湾的客家。
In many traditions, some of which it’s actually quite natural to have — I don’t know how to translate that term — like a contractual union brother, whatever that means, in the Taiwanese Holo tradition.
在许多传统中，其中一些传统中实际上很自然地拥有 ——“我不知道如何翻译这个词”——就像台湾全息传统中的契约工会兄弟，无论这意味着什么。
There’s also the indigenous nations, and with, for example, the Taiwan Nation that doesn’t quite make a distinction between genders when electing their leaders of the indigenous nation, and so on.
还有土著民族，比如台湾民族在选举土著民族领导人时不太区分性别等等。
Because of the transculturalism in Taiwan and open and democratic culture, we eventually see that even though there is a part of the country, maybe the majority at some point, does see marriage as between families, and the individual that wed are just representatives of their families, eventually, other, more individual-to-individual norms prevail and, in 2008, become the only form of recognized marriage, which is by registration.
由于台湾的跨文化主义和开放民主的文化，我们最终看到，尽管这个国家的一部分，也许是大多数人在某些时候确实将婚姻视为家庭之间的婚姻，而结婚的个人只是家庭的代表，但最终，其他更个人对个人的规范占上风，并在2008年成为唯一受认可的婚姻形式，即登记。
That, in addition to the feminist movements that fought for the equal rights for women to not having to relinquish her family name when they’re marrying and things like that, all led to the feeling of intersectionality so that the earliest feminist activist would then be the most ardent allies to the LGBTIQ+ community.
除此之外，女权运动还为女性争取平等权利，比如在结婚时不必放弃姓氏等，所有这些都导致了交叉性的感觉，因此最早的女权活动家将成为 LGBTIQ+ 群体最热心的盟友。
I think early successes, and also the way to work themself into the gender equality committee and 12 years of gender mainstreaming work, the gender impact assessment in the public sector, and so on.
我认为早期的成功，还有自己进入性别平等委员会的方式以及12年的性别主流化工作、公共部门的性别影响评估等等。
All of these mechanism designs help to make a more liberal culture out of the existing culture of family-to-family relationship, which we did not actually disrupt with the marriage equality law.
所有这些机制设计都有助于从现有的家庭与家庭关系文化中创造出更加自由的文化，而我们实际上并没有通过婚姻平等法来破坏这种文化。
It only hyperlinks to the individual parts, the bylaws but not the in-law relationships, the family-between-family relationships.
它仅超链接到各个部分、章程，但不超链接到姻亲关系、家庭之间的关系。
For our final segment of this conversation, I’ll turn to what I call the Audrey Tang production function.
在本次对话的最后一部分，我将转向我所说的奥黛丽·唐生产函数。
At ages five to six, you read a lot of classical literature.
在五到六岁的时候，你会阅读大量的古典文学。
What did you read and how did it shape you?
你读到了什么以及它如何塑造了你？
I read the Shih Ching, the collection of poems.
我读了《诗经》，诗集。
It shaped me to view things always from various different cultures, because each chapter in the Shih Ching is literally one slice of culture, of a very different culture.
它使我总是从各种不同的文化来看待事物，因为《诗经》的每一章实际上都是文化的一部分，属于一种非常不同的文化。
It’s a collection of poems that shows how the same thing may be interpreted and narrated in completely different ways from two different cultures when they view the same historical event.
这是一本诗集，展示了两种不同文化在看待同一历史事件时如何以完全不同的方式解释和叙述同一件事。
Of course, the Tao Te Ching that showed me that we are merely spaces of which thoughts may pass through us, but we don’t own the thoughts; the thoughts own us briefly.
当然，《道德经》告诉我，我们只是思想可以穿过我们的空间，但我们并不拥有思想；我们只是思想的一部分。这些想法短暂地占据了我们。
How did having a heart problem until age 12 shape your life?
12 岁之前患有心脏病对您的生活有何影响？
Well, it made me less interested in outdoor sports.
嗯，这让我对户外运动失去了兴趣。
It also made me less prone to anger or really any passion.
这也让我不太容易生气或产生任何激情。
I can’t feel very joyful either because of the heart condition.
由于心脏病，我也感觉不到很快乐。
I’m more calm and collected.
我更加冷静和镇定。
I learned Daoist breathing exercises, and they are with me like a survival instinct still now.
我学了道家呼吸功，现在它们仍然像生存本能一样伴随着我。
Do you think there’s any cognitive disadvantage to being more objective and arguably more detached?
你认为更加客观和更加超然会带来认知上的劣势吗？
I’m not sure that I’m currently detached to you, and I’m not sure that I’m sharing things from an objective point of view.
我不确定我现在是否与你分离，我也不确定我是否从客观的角度分享事情。
I’m sharing my feelings and personal memories when I was a young child, and these are only verifiable as phenomena in my own mind.
我分享的是我小时候的感受和个人记忆，这些只能作为我自己头脑中的现象来验证。
I’m not sure that the term “objective” is the right term to use here.
我不确定“目标”这个词在这里使用是否正确。
What was your family discussion table like?
你的家庭讨论桌是什么样的？
It was very lively.
非常热闹。
And because both my parents were journalists, that works with the political and law training, and so democratization is on the forefront of their minds.
而且因为我的父母都是记者，这与政治和法律培训有关，所以民主化是他们最关心的问题。
And also, because they were censored by the Single Party a lot at the time, I would read their drafts and their drafts being censored, and they will debate a censor, taking the case to the owner of the press if needed be, and for environmental justice and social justice and so on.
而且，因为他们当时受到单一党的多次审查，我会阅读他们的草案和他们正在审查的草案，他们将就审查员进行辩论，如果需要的话，将案件提交给媒体所有者，以及环境正义和社会正义等等。
A lot of discussion was around censorship and the freedom of press when I was really young.
当我很小的时候，很多讨论都是围绕审查制度和新闻自由的。
Are their cognitive advantages to being transgender?
他们的认知优势是变性人吗？
Of course.
当然。
I think it makes it easier to empathize with people because I’ve gone through some parts of your puberty, no matter the gender of you, so I wouldn’t feel that half a population is different from me.
我认为这让我更容易同情别人，因为我经历过青春期的某些部分，无论你的性别如何，所以我不会觉得有一半的人与我不同。
I would feel that I am just part of homo sapiens.
我会觉得我只是智人的一部分。
This is a large community.
这是一个大社区。
Do you think there are cognitive disadvantages of being transgender?
您认为变性人在认知上存在缺陷吗？
No. I think people can be more transgender.
不，我认为人们可以变得更加跨性别。
When our Minister Chen Shih-Chung, commander of the Central Epidemic Command Center, put on the medical mask to show solidarity to the young boy who called to say that he doesn’t want to go to school because pink masks being rationed makes him look like he’ll be bullied, I think Minister Chen and medical officers became a little bit more transgender on that very moment.
当我们的中央疫情指挥中心司令陈时中部长戴上医用口罩声援那个打电话说他不想上学的小男孩，因为配给的粉红色口罩让他看起来像是会被欺负时，我认为陈部长和医务人员在那一刻变得更加跨性别了。
It’s a practice like translation and transculturalism.
这是一种类似于翻译和跨文化主义的实践。
What’s the biggest misconception about transgender life and existence amongst intelligent, educated people?
聪明、受过教育的人对变性人的生活和存在最大的误解是什么？
I have no idea.
我不知道。
I have not done a qualitative survey.
我没有做过定性调查。
You didn’t go through the cycle of being educated in the United States the way many Taiwanese do.
你没有像许多台湾人那样经历在美国接受教育的周期。
Do you think that’s given you a different perspective?
您认为这给了您不同的视角吗？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
The IETF and the internet itself maybe is really the American experiment’s value, the United States’ value — the value the United States written in a ’70, ’80s kind of view in code.
IETF 和互联网本身也许确实是美国实验的价值，美国的价值——美国用 70、80 年代的代码观点写下的价值。
By working with internet technologies, by working with the implicit assumption of freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and of press, end-to-end innovation, and permissionless innovation, and things like that, I’m more imbued in the internet scene, more imbued American value in the internet than a traditional education in the States would, I think.
我认为，通过使用互联网技术，通过使用言论自由、集会和新闻自由、端到端创新和未经许可的创新等隐含假设，我比美国的传统教育更能融入互联网场景，更能融入互联网中的美国价值观。
Of course, nowadays, the internet governance is multicultural and there’s multicultural internet domain names, but we’re still using ASCII, which the A in ASCII is “American.” The idea that the American values imbued in the internet are somehow universal of course are now being challenged, but it’s not lost.
当然，现在的互联网治理是多元文化的，也有多元文化的互联网域名，但我们仍然使用 ASCII，ASCII 中的 A 是“美国”。互联网中渗透的美国价值观在某种程度上具有普遍性的观点当然现在受到了挑战，但它并没有消失。
I think the core internet is still very much the values of the United States.
我认为互联网的核心仍然是美国的价值观。
In 2014, you were part of a group of activists that occupied Taiwan’s parliament building.
2014年，你是一群占领台湾国会大厦的活动分子中的一员。
What was your thinking behind participation in that activity?
您参加该活动的想法是什么？
What were you hoping to accomplish?
您希望实现什么目标？
What did you see as the tradeoffs?
您认为需要哪些权衡？
I’ve read and actually translated Manuel Castells in the books Networks of Outrage and Hope, and earlier in Communication Powers.
我读过并实际翻译了曼努埃尔·卡斯特的著作《愤怒与希望的网络》，以及之前的《沟通的力量》。
We have the benefit, I guess, learning from previous occupiers, such as the Occupy Wall Street, of course, but also the 15-M and other movements.
我想，我们可以从以前的占领者那里学习，例如占领华尔街，当然，还有 15-M 和其他运动。
I started understanding that the more that you can make humor travel faster than rumor, the more you can get people interested in night market, fun-ish way, the less likely that the more divisive and the more revenge-seeking part of an occupy movement will grow.
我开始明白，你越能让幽默比谣言传播得更快，你就越能让人们对夜市感兴趣，以一种有趣的方式，占领运动中更具分裂性和更具复仇性的部分就越不可能增长。
That is to say, the conservative part in anarchism has a chance to thrive, and people have a chance to arrive to a rough consensus and running code, legal code in this case, when they can literally hum in the street.
也就是说，无政府主义中的保守派有机会蓬勃发展，人们有机会达成粗略的共识并运行代码，在这种情况下是法律代码，当他们可以在街上哼唱时。
My main work there is just with a bunch of people in the g0v community to set up communication infrastructure so that people can understand what’s really going on with their own eyes and participating in the journalism-making without being derailed by the rumors and disinformation campaigns that’s bound to come with any occupy.
我在那里的主要工作就是与 g0v 社区的一群人一起建立通信基础设施，以便人们能够亲眼了解到底发生了什么，并参与新闻制作，而不会被任何活动必然带来的谣言和虚假信息活动所干扰。
How important is the skill of translation for becoming a better thinker?
翻译技巧对于成为更好的思考者有多重要？
I think it’s very, very important.
我认为这非常非常重要。
Also important is the skills of rotation and scaling.
同样重要的是旋转和缩放的技巧。
Were you afraid that working in government would ruin or corrupt you?
您是否担心在政府工作会毁掉或腐败您？
No, not at all.
不，一点也不。
I’m working with the government; I’m not working for the government.
我正在与政府合作；我不为政府工作。
What are your skills of rotation and scaling?
您的旋转和缩放技巧是什么？
How do you use them in the government?
您如何在政府中使用它们？
Yes, scaling means that taking something that used to only happen between two people or three people that’s listening intently and scaling it — using technology to make sure that when I tour around Taiwan, I can still listen intently to people who are social innovators in their indigenous nation or their remote island or rural areas, but at the same time, through the modern technology, which seems like magic at times, people from five municipalities, from 12 central government ministries, can also listen as intently as I am to the stories and the innovations of the local people.
是的，扩展就是把以前只发生在两个人或三个人之间专心聆听的事情，扩大到它 ——用科技来确保我在台湾各地巡演时，仍然可以专心聆听原住民族或偏远岛屿或农村地区的社会创新者的声音，但同时，通过有时看起来很神奇的现代技术，来自五个直辖市、中央政府十二个部委的人们也可以像我一样专心聆听当地人的故事和创新。
And so that scales the listening idea.
这样就可以扩展倾听的想法。
By rotation, I mean taking all the sides.
通过旋转，我的意思是占据所有方面。
Whenever there are people of differing positions on an emerging topic — it could be Uber, it could be eSports, it could be 5G, self-driving vehicles, you name it.
每当人们对一个新兴话题持不同立场时，它可能是 Uber，可能是电子竞技，可能是 5G、自动驾驶汽车，凡是你能想到的。
If I find that I cannot argue from any particular viewpoint, I will book a couple of days to spend time with that community on ethnographic — just hanging out until I rotate my worldview and until I can argue from their viewpoint.
如果我发现我无法从任何特定观点进行争论，我会预订几天时间与该社区一起进行民族志研究——只是闲逛，直到我改变我的世界观，直到我可以从他们的观点进行争论。
That’s called taking all the sides.
这就是所谓的全面取胜。
Why aren’t there more Audrey Tangs in the other governments of the world?
为什么世界其他政府中没有更多的奥黛丽·唐（Audrey Tang）？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
That’s a question for the other governments.
这是其他政府的问题。
Maybe I think people were limited by the imagination of the government being a single thing.
也许我认为人们的想象力受到政府单一事物的限制。
We said internet governance; we didn’t say internet government.
我们说互联网治理；我们没有说互联网政府。
If the IETF or ICANN started calling themselves internet government, I’m sure that there will be a lot of more limitation in thinking in the multi-stakeholder approach, but no, we call it governance.
如果 IETF 或 ICANN 开始称自己为互联网政府，我确信多利益相关方方法的思考将会受到更多限制，但不，我们称之为治理。
We don’t call it government.
我们不称其为政府。
So maybe just the word “government” itself limits people’s imaginations.
所以也许“政府”这个词本身就限制了人们的想象力。
If rotation is fundamental to your thought, it seems that most governments in the literal sense of that term are not always so interested in rotation, right?
如果轮换是您思想的基础，那么从字面意义上讲，大多数政府似乎并不总是对轮换那么感兴趣，对吗？
They want to push through a particular set of policies to serve interest groups and constituencies toward the end of being reelected.
他们希望在连任结束时推行一套特定的政策来为利益集团和选民服务。
Well, but election is a kind of rotation; it’s just temporal.
嗯，但是选举是一种轮换；这只是暂时的。
It rotates the loop every four years.
它每四年旋转一次循环。
Sure, but any particular government is not interested in rotation per se.
当然可以，但任何特定政府对轮换本身都不感兴趣。
In fact, they would prefer its opposite over time.
事实上，随着时间的推移，他们更喜欢相反的情况。
Yes, but I’m talking about democratic cultures and democratic norms.
是的，但我说的是民主文化和民主规范。
If we shorten the iteration to not four years, but actually maybe 60 days, as is the standard iteration in Taiwanese citizens’ initiative, the e-petition platform, then we can iterate more.
如果我们把迭代缩短到不是四年，而是实际上可能是60天，就像台湾公民倡议电子信访平台的标准迭代一样，那么我们可以迭代更多。
Each particular generation, of course, in that 60 days, are interested from their point of view.
当然，在那 60 天里，每一代人都对自己的观点感兴趣。
If you rotate quickly, then even still pictures, when rotated quickly, looks like animation.
如果快速旋转，那么即使是静态图片，快速旋转时也会看起来像动画。
Actually, that’s where the word “anime” came from.
事实上，这就是“动漫”一词的由来。
It’s just quickly animated frames.
它只是快速的动画帧。
If you think about your own life and career over the next few years, if you wish to increase your own empathy at the margin, what do you feel that calls for from you?
如果你想想自己未来几年的生活和事业，如果你想在边缘增加自己的同理心，你觉得这需要你做什么？
Yes, I think a couple more things.
是的，我还想一些事情。
I need to learn more languages.
我需要学习更多语言。
Now, with the help of assistive intelligence, such as machine learning and translation, it’s becoming much easier.
现在，在机器学习和翻译等辅助智能的帮助下，一切变得更加容易。
I take a step doing that, translating how to use the traditional rescue code that you see right there to disinfect the mask so that it kills the virus but doesn’t destroy the PPE material.
我采取了一个步骤，翻译如何使用您在那里看到的传统救援代码对口罩进行消毒，以便杀死病毒但不会破坏个人防护装备材料。
I translated it and narrated it in I think, a dozen languages.
我翻译了它并用我认为的十几种语言进行了叙述。
It’s a beginning, but I look forward to learn more languages and communicate in more languages.
这只是一个开始，但我期待学习更多语言并用更多语言进行交流。
The other thing is also synthesize more of the cultures that I have come across into a more transcultural way of living, transcultural way of thinking, and that includes up to the name of the country itself.
另一件事是将我遇到的更多文化综合成一种更跨文化的生活方式、跨文化的思维方式，其中包括国家本身的名称。
Taiwan — the name of the country is officially Zhōnghuá Mínguó, which I translate as a transcultural republic of citizens.
台湾——国家的正式名称是Zhonghua Mínguó，我将其翻译为跨文化公民共和国。
Now, that’s, I wouldn’t say universal, but at least a world globally applicable view.
现在，我不会说普遍的观点，但至少是一个全球适用的观点。
Anyone can be part of a transcultural republic of citizens.
任何人都可以成为跨文化公民共和国的一部分。
Which languages do you know now already?
您现在已经掌握哪些语言？
Javascript pretty well.
JavaScript 相当不错。
That counts.
这很重要。
Perl, Raku, Haskell, and Python not very fluently, Ruby, of course, and so on.
Perl、Raku、Haskell 和 Python 不太流利，当然还有 Ruby 等等。
English, right?
英语，对吗？
C, C++, C# — not really C# — OCaml, and also C.
C、C++、C# — 不是真正的 C# — OCaml，还有 C。
OCamel is F#.
OCamel 是 F#。
English, of course.
当然是英语。
Chinese?
中国人？
Native Taiwanese?
台湾本土人？
I think in English mostly nowadays, if you talk about natural language.
如果你谈论自然语言，我现在主要用英语思考。
For me, Mandarin — along with Mandarin, Taiwanese Holo, which are my two native languages.
对我来说，普通话 ——和普通话、台湾语Holo一样，这是我的两种母语。
I reserve them for more poetic expressions, but my work language is now definitely English.
我保留它们是为了更诗意的表达，但我的工作语言现在肯定是英语。
Audrey Tang, thank you very much.
唐奥黛，非常感谢你。
It’s been a great pleasure.
这是一种极大的乐趣。
A great pleasure here, too.
在这里也很高兴。
Live long and prosper.
长寿并繁荣。