Ashley Mears on Status and Beauty (Ep. 97)

阿什利·米尔斯 (Ashley Mears) 谈地位与美丽（第 97 集）

2020-05-08 | 官方页面 YouTube

TYLER COWEN

Hello, everyone.

大家好。

Today I am chatting with Ashley Mears, who is professor of sociology at Boston University.

今天我和波士顿大学社会学教授阿什利·米尔斯聊天。

This year, she is publishing one of my very favorite books of the year.

今年，她出版了我今年最喜欢的书之一。

It is called Very Important People: Status and Beauty in the Global Party Circuit — publication date, May 26th.

书名是《非常重要的人物：全球派对巡回赛中的地位与美丽》——出版日期，5 月 26 日。

I’m also a big fan of her earlier book, called Pricing Beauty: The Making of a Fashion Model.

Ashley, welcome.

阿什利，欢迎。

ASHLEY MEARS

Hi, Tyler, thank you.

嗨，泰勒，谢谢你。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

COWEN

Let’s just jump right in.

让我们直接开始吧。

When wealthy men are in clubs, why do they want other wealthy men to see them surrounded by beautiful women?

当有钱男人在俱乐部时，为什么他们希望其他有钱男人看到他们身边都是美女？

MEARS

I feel like you don’t really need a sociologist to answer that question.

我觉得你真的不需要社会学家来回答这个问题。

Beautiful women are a sign of status, of high status.

美丽的女人是身份的象征，地位高。

Wealthy men like to surround themselves in the same way that you would see a curated entourage in lots of different historical forms.

Beautiful women in the VIP clubland are a sign of status.

And it’s a certain kind of beauty.

这是一种特定的美。

That’s the interesting thing about beauty, right?

这就是美的有趣之处，对吧？

It’s always in the eye of the beholder.

它总是在情人眼中。

But in the VIP world, which caters to these rich men, the kind of beauty is the kind that’s defined as very rare according to the fashion modeling industry: very tall, very thin, predominantly — although not exclusively — white, and with a look that you would see in a high-end fashion magazine.

但在迎合这些有钱人的VIP世界里，这种美女是时装模特界所定义的非常罕见的美女：很高，很瘦，主要是————但不完全是————白人，而且有着一种在高端时尚杂志上看到的样子。

COWEN

But I know, for instance, a lot of CEOs from the Midwest, and they are not seeking to see themselves surrounded by beautiful women.

但我知道，例如，很多来自中西部的首席执行官，他们并不希望看到自己被美丽的女性包围。

They hang out with their wives, whom they seem to love.

Their wives are more or less the same age.

他们的妻子年龄大致相同。

What accounts for that cross-sectional variation?

是什么导致了这种横截面变化？

MEARS

Very Important People is not about all economic elites.

非常重要人物并不代表所有经济精英。

It’s about this subsection of economic elites who are predominantly young.

这是关于这部分经济精英的，他们主要是年轻人。

They’re affluent tourists or businesspeople who are coming through places like New York, or on this global jet-set calendar in, for instance, Saint-Tropez or St. Barts or the Hamptons.

他们是富裕的游客或商人，他们来到纽约等地，或者参加全球喷气式飞机旅行，例如圣特罗佩、圣巴茨或汉普顿。

It’s a certain type of predominantly young, economically powerful man that goes to these spaces and can purchase, over the course of the night, that feeling of being high status, that this feeling, this temporary feeling of being the big man in anthropological terms.

这是一种以年轻人为主、经济实力雄厚的人，他们来到这些空间，可以在一夜之间购买到一种高地位的感觉，这种感觉，这种暂时成为人类学术语中的大人物的感觉。

That’s not to say, however, that the midwestern CEO doesn’t occasionally take a trip to New York and dip into these spaces.

They’re welcomed too.

他们也很受欢迎。

Any man with money can come into these places.

任何有钱的人都可以进入这些地方。

If you think about some of the really rich people on really great behavior, like the Bill Gateses of the world, who seem very grounded and hardworking and family men — they occasionally also go into these high-profile places and get crazy in the VIP section of a nightclub.

如果你想想那些行为举止非常出色的真正富有的人，比如世界上的比尔·盖茨，他们看起来非常踏实、勤奋，而且是顾家的男人——他们偶尔也会去这些引人注目的地方，在夜总会的 VIP 区疯狂。

They’re not the main fare for these clubs, but they’re definitely welcome, and they come and go.

他们不是这些俱乐部的主要收入来源，但他们绝对受到欢迎，而且他们来来去去。

COWEN

Say I want to be known publicly as a man surrounded by many of these beautiful women.

What sector am I likely to be in?

我可能从事什么行业？

Or what age am I likely to be?

或者说我大概几岁？

Or what’s predicting that correlation?

或者什么可以预测这种相关性？

MEARS

It would be people who have a lot of disposable money, where their money is coming in quickly.

Money comes in quickly.

钱来得很快。

It goes out quickly.

它很快就消失了。

People who get the bonus in Wall Street were a lot of the people that I met in these spaces.

The people are in their 30s and their 40s, recent divorcees.

这些人年龄在 30 多岁和 40 多岁，刚刚离婚。

So, recently single people who are going through a wild moment in their life.

There would be occasional businesspeople who are interested in doing business, and this is one of the forms in which they can bond with one another, especially the case in some forms of finance, so they might be in these arenas as well.

偶尔会有一些商人对做生意感兴趣，这是他们可以相互联系的形式之一，特别是在某些形式的金融领域，所以他们也可能会进入这些领域。

It’s a bit of a mix.

这有点混合。

Some people are really into this VIP club experience for a couple of years.

有些人已经热衷于 VIP 俱乐部体验好几年了。

For men, it wouldn’t be uncommon to see men that were in their 50s and 60s, certainly uncommon to see women in their 50s or 60s.

But for the most part, it would be younger men who have a lot of money that they can spend.

COWEN

Are these male signalers mostly high-time-preference people, who “have a lot of money” but actually are not that well off, and they want to send a short-run signal, and they don’t care very much about 20 years out?

这些男性信号员是否大多是高时间偏好的人，他们“有很多钱”但实际上并不富裕，他们想要发出短期信号，而不太关心20年后的情况？

Is that the right way to think about it?

这是正确的思考方式吗？

MEARS

There’s definitely some of those people.

肯定有一些这样的人。

You can find them through some of the lawsuits, where they’ll come into a club, and they actually don’t even have any money.

But they come in, and they pretend to be a big spender, called a whale.

They run up a high bill, and then their credit card declines it the next day.

And then they end up going to court with the club.

That happens sometimes.

有时会发生这种情况。

To go to one of these clubs with the bottle service formula, you rent the table for the night, and then the bottles of alcohol get brought to your table.

去这些俱乐部的酒瓶服务模式中，你需要租一张桌子过夜，然后酒瓶就会送到你的桌子上。

There’s this huge price inflation on the bottles, so for a single person to do that, it could be a tab of $2,000, $3,000 on up.

瓶子的价格上涨幅度很大，所以一个人做这件事可能需要花费 2,000 美元、3,000 美元甚至更多。

But if you have a group of, say, five men or six men, and they’re willing to spend, it can actually be — it’s not that much money if it’s a group of men who go in, and they get this VIP treatment, so it can be economical in that sense.

但如果你有一群人，比如说，五个男人或六个男人，他们愿意花钱，那么实际上可以是 ——如果是一群男人进去，而且他们得到了这种 VIP 待遇，那么钱就没有那么多了，所以从这个意义上来说，它可以是经济的。

COWEN

If you take the men who go to these clubs, do you think they’re much more narcissistic in terms of their basic personality features?

如果你以去这些俱乐部的男人为例，你认为他们的基本性格特征是否更加自恋？

Or do you think that most men, given the opportunity, could fit into those slots readily and just slide into that world?

或者你认为大多数男人只要有机会就能轻松融入这些位置并滑入那个世界？

MEARS

Yeah, I think that most men really could slide into that world.

For sure, those across the spectrum — there are some people for whom this really ticks the box.

当然，对于各个阶层的人来说，这确实符合某些人的要求。

This satisfies a need to be seen and to feel high status, and it’s very validating and very important.

这满足了被人看到和感受到高地位的需要，这是非常有效且非常重要的。

I don’t think that’s necessarily a stable attribute of that person over their life course.

我认为这不一定是这个人一生中稳定的属性。

It might just fit the banker culture that they’re immersed in when they’re 30 and working on Wall Street.

这可能正好适合他们 30 岁时在华尔街工作时所沉浸的银行家文化。

On the other hand, I think that a lot of, for instance, academics who look at this and hold their nose and say these are pathological status-seeking people would probably also enjoy a night or two out in these arenas.

另一方面，我认为，例如，很多学者看到这一点并捂着鼻子说这些人是病态的寻求地位的人，他们可能也会在这些场所享受一两个晚上。

Part of it’s because a nightclub — they’re really good at orchestrating this experience so that it feels good.

部分原因是夜总会 ——他们非常擅长精心策划这种体验，让人感觉良好。

This was something that was really interesting.

这是一件非常有趣的事情。

I also did interviews with the people that are buying bottles — only 20, so not a random sample, but just to get a sense of how do people talk about and process and put into words what they’re experiencing at these clubs.

我还采访了购买瓶子的人——只有 20 个，所以不是随机样本，只是为了了解人们如何谈论、处理和表达他们在这些俱乐部的经历。

And those people themselves, who even spend a lot of money on bottles, would talk about it as like, “Yeah, it’s tacky,” or “It’s ridiculous,” or “I know that it looks bad.” So everybody knows that status is a sensitive good.

而那些甚至在瓶子上花了很多钱的人自己也会这样谈论它，“是的，它很俗气”，或者“这很荒谬”，或者“我知道它看起来很糟糕”。所以每个人都知道地位是一种敏感的商品。

You can’t just go out and buy it without losing status, right?

你不能只是出去买它而不失去地位，对吧？

Everybody knows that, and yet the club is really good at setting it up so that it feels completely appropriate, and it’s celebrated, and it feels good to be in these spaces.

每个人都知道这一点，但俱乐部确实擅长将其设置得非常合适，并且值得庆祝，并且在这些空间中感觉很好。

It’s really thrilling and exciting to be in them.

身处其中真是令人兴奋又兴奋。

COWEN

Can the non-deliberateness of status seeking be sustained in the longer run?

从长远来看，这种不刻意地追求地位的行为能够持续下去吗？

Let me explain that.

让我解释一下。

If you’re too obviously throwing money around to look like a high-status person, you don’t look high status, so it’s all made casual and indirect.

如果你太明显地花钱让自己看起来像一个地位高的人，那么你看起来地位就不高，所以这一切都会变得随意和间接。

But over time, people figure out those are the casual indirect signals for something that is actually somewhat grossly low status.

但随着时间的推移，人们发现这些只是一些偶然的间接信号，表明一些实际上地位很低的东西。

So how does the equilibrium keep in place?

那么平衡是如何保持的呢？

Doesn’t everyone figure out that the casual behavior is totally deliberate?

难道大家不明白这种随意的行为完全是故意的吗？

MEARS

Yes, but I guess it depends on who’s the everyone in that audience.

是的，但我想这取决于观众中的每个人是谁。

One thing that comes up in research on status is that people don’t really mind if the Donald Trumps out there are living in a gold-plated penthouse.

关于地位的研究中出现的一件事是，人们并不真正介意唐纳德·特朗普一家是否住在镀金的顶层公寓里。

What they care about are the people that are around them, in their milieu.

他们关心的是他们周围、他们所处环境中的人。

If you’re thinking about a 30-year-old Wall Street banker who’s blowing off money and is part of this lifestyle, and everybody else in that world that he’s connected to is also a part of it — they can run that as fun for quite a while.

如果你想到一位 30 岁的华尔街银行家，他挥霍金钱，并且是这种生活方式的一部分，而这个世界上与他有联系的其他人也是这种生活方式的一部分 ——他们可以在很长一段时间内将这种方式视为一种乐趣。

It doesn’t really matter if, let’s say, your friends, the CEOs in the Midwest, who are more demure and think that’s tacky — it doesn’t really matter what they think because they’re in separate worlds anyway.

比如说，你的朋友，中西部的首席执行官，他们是否比较端庄，认为这很俗气，这并不重要——他们怎么想并不重要，因为无论如何，他们处于不同的世界。

COWEN

But if you take something like, say, Playboy clubs, which, just to be clear, I’ve never been to, but my sense is they became much lower status over time.

但如果你拿花花公子俱乐部这样的地方来说，澄清一下，我从来没有去过，但我的感觉是，随着时间的推移，它们的地位变得越来越低。

So the clubs you’re writing about — are they on a downward trajectory of losing status as the deliberateness becomes clearer?

那么，你所写的俱乐部——随着故意变得更加明显，它们是否正走在失去地位的下降轨道上？

MEARS

This is what some of the promoters have said.

这是一些促销员的说法。

The promoters recognize that in the long run, it’s not something that’s going to be sustained.

发起人认识到，从长远来看，这不会持续下去。

Like any fashion trend in consumption, there’ll be something else that becomes a high marker of status, like Peloton bike riding or something.

就像消费中的任何时尚趋势一样，还会有其他一些东西成为地位的高标志，比如 Peloton 自行车骑行之类的。

So yeah, in some ways this is a cyclical nature of consumption, that there’s always some other thing that can denote status that the elite will grab onto.

所以，是的，在某种程度上，这是消费的周期性，总是有一些其他东西可以代表精英阶层会抓住的地位。

And then it’ll trickle down and become more popular.

然后它会慢慢流传并变得更受欢迎。

I think that this moment —

我想这一刻——

COWEN

Peloton I have, by the way.

顺便说一句，我有 Peloton。

One of those I have.

我有其中之一。

The club membership I don’t.

我没有俱乐部会员资格。

I’ve never been.

我从来没有去过。

MEARS

Well, then you’re in a different kind of club, Tyler.

好吧，那么你就加入了一个不同类型的俱乐部，泰勒。

You’re in, but just with a different kind of high-status showing.

你加入了，但只是以一种不同的高地位表现。

COWEN

If someone called me “bridge and tunnel,” what would that be referring to?

如果有人称我为“桥梁和隧道”，那指的是什么？

MEARS

Okay, ouch.

好吧，哎哟。

Manhattan being an island, it’s the term that denotes somebody who’s seen as not having enough money or cultural competency to make it to live in Manhattan, so they have to travel by bridge or tunnel from Brooklyn or from Staten Island to come in.

曼哈顿是一个岛屿，这个词指的是那些被认为没有足够的钱或文化能力无法在曼哈顿居住的人，因此他们必须从布鲁克林或史坦顿岛通过桥梁或隧道才能进入。

And they try to get into the door, and the door person quickly recognizes that this is an outsider, and they don’t belong.

他们试图进门，开门的人很快就意识到这是一个外人，他们不属于这里。

COWEN

I am, in fact, from New Jersey.

事实上，我来自新泽西州。

What is it about me that they would see as the giveaway?

我身上有什么地方会被他们视为赠品？

MEARS

About you in particular?

特别是关于你吗？

I demur on that question.

我对这个问题表示异议。

COWEN

A general person from New Jersey.

来自新泽西州的普通人。

MEARS

A general person from New Jersey.

来自新泽西州的普通人。

Okay, well, New Jersey is, of course, a big and varied state.

好吧，新泽西州当然是一个幅员辽阔、多样化的州。

And there’s a lot of people in New Jersey that would be welcome to come into the club.

新泽西州有很多人欢迎加入俱乐部。

But the shorthand of Jersey as bridge and tunnel is, cue up somebody from the Jersey Shore, basically.

但泽西岛作为桥梁和隧道的简写是，基本上是从泽西海岸引来某人。

Somebody who might have money but doesn’t have any what we might call cultural capital.

一个可能有钱但没有任何我们所谓的文化资本的人。

They don’t know how to dress.

他们不知道如何穿衣。

They don’t look sophisticated.

他们看起来并不复杂。

They’re showing their money in a too obvious way, like with flashy chains or something.

他们以过于明显的方式展示自己的钱，比如用华丽的链条什么的。

So they would be denied entrance.

所以他们会被拒绝进入。

COWEN

Let’s say a Nobel Prize winner showed up at the club, if necessary, with proof of the prize.

假设一位诺贝尔奖获得者出现在俱乐部，如有必要，还可以携带获奖证明。

Milton Friedman, right, who was not glamorous looking.

米尔顿·弗里德曼（右），看上去并不迷人。

Would they let him in?

他们会让他进来吗？

MEARS

Well, about the economist getting in — they have to be rich economists and also willing to spend.

嗯，关于进入的经济学家——他们必须是富有的经济学家并且也愿意花钱。

So yeah, a trickle-down economist, maybe, if they’re willing to spend a lot of money on these tables.

所以，是的，如果他们愿意在这些桌子上花很多钱，也许是一个滴流经济学家。

The two things that the club values most are money and beauty.

俱乐部最看重的两件事是金钱和美丽。

And it’s women’s beauty and men’s money that make up the two things that the club wants inside.

女人的美丽和男人的金钱构成了俱乐部想要的两件事。

So if a man shows up and he has money, he’s in.

因此，如果一个人出现并且他有钱，他就加入了。

The Nobel Prize, hmm — it’s a certain kind of celebrity.

诺贝尔奖，嗯 ——是某种名人。

Yeah, celebrities are also welcome.

是的，名人也受欢迎。

And celebrities sometimes don’t pay because they add value to the space just by virtue of being there.

名人有时不会付钱，因为他们仅仅凭借存在就为空间增加了价值。

Because everybody can say, “I partied with Kanye West.” “I partied with Milton Friedman” — I don’t know, maybe.

因为每个人都可以说：“我和坎耶·维斯特一起参加了派对。” “我和米尔顿·弗里德曼一起参加了派对” —— 我不知道，也许吧。

COWEN: Let’s say I had a rule not to eat food in restaurants that were full of beautiful women, thinking that the food will be worse.

COWEN：假设我有一个规则，就是不要在满是美女的餐馆里吃饭，因为我认为食物会更糟糕。

Is that a good rule or a bad rule?

这是一个好规则还是一个坏规则？

MEARS

I know this rule, because I was reading that when you published that book.

我知道这条规则，因为当你出版那本书时我正在读这条规则。

It was when I was doing the field work in 2012, 2013.

那是我2012年、2013年去野外工作的时候。

And I remember reading it and laughing, because you were saying avoid trendy restaurants with beautiful women.

我记得读过它并笑了，因为你说要避免去有美女的时髦餐厅。

And I was like, “Yeah, I’m one of those people that’s actually ruining the food but creating value in these other forms because being a part of this scene and producing status.” So yeah, I think that’s absolutely correct.

我当时想，“是的，我是那些实际上破坏食物但以其他形式创造价值的人之一，因为我是这个场景的一部分并创造地位。”所以是的，我认为这是绝对正确的。

I remember reading and laughing, because you were saying avoid trendy restaurants with beautiful women.

我记得我读着读着就笑了，因为你说要避免去有美女的时髦餐厅。

The thing that maybe is interesting for you about my book that helps explain your book is that the beautiful women that are inside these restaurants, giving off status — that there’s this whole organized system to bring them there.

我的书有助于解释你的书，也许你感兴趣的是这些餐馆里的漂亮女人，散发着地位 ——有一个完整的有组织的系统把她们带到那里。

The restaurants and the clubs hire, on a contract basis, this group of people called promoters, party promoters.

餐馆和俱乐部以合同形式雇用这群人，称为发起人、派对发起人。

Their job is to go out and find a bunch of beautiful women and then bring them to the restaurant.

他们的工作就是出去找一群美女，然后把她们带到餐厅。

Then the women get dinner for free, so the food comes out family style, and they eat for free.

然后女人们免费吃晚饭，所以食物是家庭风格的，她们免费吃。

That sets up the obligation that then she’ll go with him to the nightclub, which is usually upstairs or attached in some way, or the managers are connected.

这就规定了她必须和他一起去夜总会的义务，夜总会通常在楼上或以某种方式附属，或者经理有联系。

They’re both profiting on having beautiful women in there and selling the experience of being around beautiful women.

他们都通过拥有美女在那里并出售与美女在一起的体验来获利。

But indeed, the food’s not that great.

但事实上，食物并没有那么好。

COWEN

In this whole arrangement, how happy are the club girls?

在这整个安排中，俱乐部女孩们有多高兴？

But relative to their peers who would otherwise be demographically similar.

但相对于他们的同龄人来说，他们在人口统计上是相似的。

MEARS

Well, it’s an interesting question.

嗯，这是一个有趣的问题。

I think that for the women that end up going out with promoters in the VIP — they’re motivated by a range of things.

我认为，对于那些最终与 VIP 促销员约会的女性来说，她们受到一系列因素的激励。

For many of them, because they’re recruited from the bottom of the fashion modeling industry — and that was one thing that I found in my first book, that most models don’t make very much money — they actually need to eat.

对他们中的许多人来说，因为他们是从时装模特行业的底层招募来的 ——这是我在第一本书中发现的一件事，大多数模特赚的钱不多 ——他们实际上需要吃饭。

They don’t have very much money.

他们没有多少钱。

So the promoters are opening up for them a glamorous network of friends that also comes with these clear perks, like expenses paid, wining and dining, and these experiences that models otherwise can’t afford.

因此，发起人为她们开放了一个迷人的朋友网络，同时还带来了这些明确的福利，比如支付费用、美酒和餐饮，以及模特们无法承受的这些体验。

Which is ironic because, for you, Tyler, you’re looking for a good restaurant, and you see this trendy place full of beautiful people.

这很讽刺，因为对于你来说，泰勒，你正在寻找一家好的餐厅，而你看到这个时尚的地方充满了美丽的人。

The reality is, most of them probably can’t afford to eat in those places on their own.

现实情况是，他们中的大多数人可能无法独自在这些地方吃饭。

Or maybe they’re actually motivated to go to those places to get the free meal.

或者也许他们实际上是有动力去那些地方获得免费餐食。

So in that sense, there’s a tradeoff that’s clear.

所以从这个意义上说，有一个明显的权衡。

And I think that the promoters in this VIP clubland do subsidize a lot of the low wages of the modeling industry.

而且我认为这个VIP俱乐部的发起人确实补贴了模特行业的很多低工资。

But the other question is, what else would a woman that’s, say, 20, of limited financial means, be doing in the city?

但另一个问题是，一个 20 岁、经济能力有限的女性在城里还能做什么？

Well, there’s lots of other things.

嗯，还有很多其他的事情。

In some ways it appeals to a woman’s taste if she wants to be a part of this glamorous, high-end world and participate in it even for a short while.

从某些方面来说，如果女性想成为这个迷人的高端世界的一部分，甚至只是短暂地参与其中，那么它就符合她的品味。

Definitely there’s a tradeoff.

肯定有一个权衡。

And people talked about it as being a win-win.

人们认为这是双赢的。

There are downsides, clearly, that they recognize — that when the beautiful women go to these restaurants, the food comes out, but you don’t get to choose what you want off of the menu.

显然，这样做也有缺点，因为他们认识到，当美女去这些餐馆时，食物就出来了，但你不能从菜单上选择你想要的东西。

It comes out family style, and usually it’s the leftover stuff from the kitchen that they just have that’s cheaper.

它是家庭风格的，通常是厨房里剩下的东西，而且更便宜。

If it’s a sushi restaurant, it’s never sashimi that the beautiful women are treated to.

如果是寿司店，请美女吃的绝对不是生鱼片。

It’s the cucumber rolls.

这是黄瓜卷。

So there’s some downside to it, in that the women don’t get their choice of how the night is going to unfold and where they’re going to sit and what exactly they get to do, but they do get a piece of this affluent city that they would otherwise be excluded from.

因此，它有一些缺点，因为女性无法选择夜晚如何展开、坐在哪里以及到底要做什么，但她们确实获得了这座富裕城市的一部分，否则她们将被排除在外。

COWEN

If some of the men are high-discount-rate men, do you think these young women are, on average, high-discount-rate young women?

如果其中一些男性是高折扣率男性，那么您认为这些年轻女性平均而言是高折扣率年轻女性吗？

MEARS

Mmm, I suppose yes.

嗯，我想是的。

Let’s just say the more needy a woman is or the more desperate she is and she can’t afford things on her own, then I think the more likely she will be a regular participant in this world, at least for a short while until she establishes her own network, or gets a career, or her modeling career takes off, or she goes back to school.

这么说吧，一个女人越需要帮助，或者她越绝望，她自己买不起东西，那么我认为她就越有可能成为这个世界的常规参与者，至少在短时间内，直到她建立自己的网络，或者获得一份职业，或者她的模特事业腾飞，或者她回到学校。

But it’s a world on offer for people who both want and need it.

但这是一个为那些既想要又需要它的人提供的世界。

On the prospects of a model working the party circuit

论政党巡回演出模式的前景

COWEN

Let’s say we did an outcome study and traced the club girls 25 years later.

假设我们做了一项结果研究并追踪了 25 年后的俱乐部女孩。

What do you think having been a club girl would end up predicting?

你认为成为一名俱乐部女孩最终会预测什么？

Having a lot of children, having no children, being happily married?

有很多孩子，没有孩子，婚姻幸福吗？

MEARS

Right, right, right.

对，对，对。

I think that myself — I might be a little bit of an outlier as a club girl because I was much older by about 10 years, even though I was still referred to ubiquitously as a girl.

我认为我自己 ——作为一名俱乐部女孩，我可能有点与众不同，因为我比自己老了大约 10 岁，尽管我仍然被普遍称为女孩。

I had a professional job and a career, and I was in here doing it for one thing.

我有一份专业的工作和事业，我来这里只是为了一件事。

But looking at the other women that are in the scene, it’s really quite a range of outcomes.

但看看现场的其他女性，结果确实多种多样。

It might increase the most their social capital in the sense that they get more ties to people in different kinds of realms than they would if they weren’t a part of this world.

这可能会最大程度地增加他们的社会资本，因为与不属于这个世界的情况相比，他们与不同领域的人有更多的联系。

So if they stayed in Nebraska and didn’t try out modeling, or if they tried out modeling but stayed in a model’s apartment and didn’t go to the Hamptons and to Saint-Tropez with the promoter, I think that on the margins they do gain those kinds of cosmopolitan experiences, which might be convertible for something valuable in the future.

因此，如果他们留在内布拉斯加州并且没有尝试模特，或者如果他们尝试模特但留在模特的公寓并且没有和发起人一起去汉普顿和圣特罗佩，我认为在边缘他们确实获得了这些国际化的经验，这可能会在未来转化为有价值的东西。

I think that they gain friendship ties to people that they otherwise wouldn’t be exposed to, especially other women.

我认为她们与原本不会接触到的人建立了友谊，尤其是其他女性。

It is a really important scene where women can connect to each other.

这是一个非常重要的场景，女性可以相互联系。

I don’t think it’s that valuable of a scene where women can connect to rich men.

我认为女性可以与有钱男性建立联系的场景没有那么有价值。

This is a question that people always want to know.

这是人们一直想知道的问题。

“Well, don’t these young women, these club girls — don’t they fetch a rich man for a husband, and this is a kind of great dating and mating market?” And I think the answer to that is no.

“好吧，难道这些年轻女性，这些俱乐部女孩——她们不是找个有钱人做丈夫吗？这是一个很棒的约会和交配市场？”我认为答案是否定的。

COWEN

But why not?

但为什么不呢？

Because the well-to-do men are there.

因为那里有富裕的人。

The attractive women are there, right?

有魅力的女人就在那里，对吧？

In a lot of other settings you see frequent pairings.

在许多其他设置中，您会看到频繁的配对。

What stops it from happening in the club?

是什么阻止了这种事在俱乐部发生？

MEARS

Even though women who look like fashion models are so valuable in this scene for lending status, they’re devalued for the assumption that they’re just beautiful.

尽管看起来像时装模特的女性在这个场景中对于借用地位来说非常有价值，但由于人们认为她们只是美丽，所以她们的价值被贬低了。

Specifically, the kind of women that are club girls, going out night after night — they’re seen as being unserious.

具体来说，那些夜店女郎、夜夜外出的女性——她们被认为是不认真的。

This is not the pool of future wives.

这不是未来妻子的池子。

This is not the pool of future business partners.

这不是未来商业伙伴的池子。

This is a pool of hookups.

这是一个连接池。

People have a very specific term that they use to describe girls that are very valuable to the club and to the promoters, but completely devalued outside of the club, and that’s the party girl.

人们有一个非常具体的术语来形容那些对俱乐部和发起人来说非常有价值，但在俱乐部之外就完全贬值的女孩，那就是派对女孩。

People would dismiss party girls as being unserious women that you want to have at the party, but you don’t want to see them the next day.

人们可能会认为派对女孩是不严肃的女性，你想在派对上看到她们，但第二天你又不想看到她们。

It’s like being tainted by going into the club and taking advantage of all of the things that the club can offer to a beautiful young woman.

这就像进入俱乐部并利用俱乐部可以为美丽的年轻女子提供的所有东西而受到玷污。

By making that trade of her beauty for access, she’s assumed to be just a party girl.

通过用自己的美貌换取接触机会，她被认为只是一个派对女孩。

COWEN

As you probably know, there’s some modest degree of evidence that attractive people are smarter, on average at least.

你可能知道，有一定程度的证据表明，有魅力的人至少平均而言更聪明。

So why isn’t it the case that these supposed party girls — a lot of them are quite bright — they figure out ways of signaling that they’re smart, which is not hard to do in conversation, but have some well-to-do men who maybe find it hard to meet the beautiful women they want to marry, and they go to the club, and they look for the signals from the really smart party girls.

那么，为什么这些所谓的派对女孩——“她们中的很多人都非常聪明”——她们想出一些方法来表明自己很聪明，这在谈话中并不难做到，但有些富裕的男人可能发现很难见到他们想娶的漂亮女人，他们去俱乐部，寻找来自真正聪明的派对女孩的信号。

Why doesn’t the market work that way?

为什么市场不这样运作呢？

What keeps them apart?

是什么让他们分开？

MEARS

It definitely can work that way.

它绝对可以这样工作。

There’s lots of success stories where it does work that way.

有很多成功的案例确实是这样运作的。

Melania Trump, for example, met Donald Trump at one of these parties — not one of these parties in these nightclubs, but she was introduced at a party that was run by her then fashion-modeling agent, who was actually a regular in this whole VIP circuit.

例如，梅拉尼娅·特朗普 (Melania Trump) 在这些派对中认识了唐纳德·特朗普 (Donald Trump)，但她是在一场由她当时的时装模特经纪人举办的派对上被介绍的，而这位经纪人实际上是整个 VIP 圈子的常客。

So she was kind of connected to this world, and that’s where she met the very rich and successful businessman.

所以她与这个世界有某种联系，在那里她遇到了这位非常富有和成功的商人。

By the way, she also had to work pretty hard when she was introduced to the national stage to clear the reputation that she’s not a party girl.

顺便说一句，当她被介绍到全国舞台时，她也必须非常努力才能洗清自己不是派对女孩的名声。

There was all this effort to say Melania Trump was a good girl.

人们竭尽全力说梅拉尼娅·特朗普是一个好女孩。

She didn’t go out too much.

她没有出去太多。

She happened to be at this one party, but she was not a party girl.

她碰巧参加了这个聚会，但她不是一个聚会女孩。

So it can work.

所以它可以工作。

There’s probably lots of stories where that does work, but for the majority of the cases of the young women who are brought to these clubs with the promoters — it doesn’t work for them because they’re staying with the promoter.

可能有很多故事表明这种方法确实有效，但对于大多数与发起人一起被带到这些俱乐部的年轻女性来说，这对她们不起作用，因为她们和发起人待在一起。

The promoter’s job is to keep them at the table.

发起人的工作就是让他们留在谈判桌上。

Their primary purpose being there is signaling their beauty.

他们在那里的主要目的是表明他们的美丽。

It becomes difficult to try to forge any kind of meaningful connection when the lights are low and the music is loud.

当灯光昏暗、音乐喧闹时，尝试建立任何有意义的联系变得很困难。

I know people are talking, but really like shouting into each other’s ears.

我知道人们在说话，但我真的很喜欢对着对方的耳朵大喊大叫。

The setup of that kind of a situation works against any woman who’s trying to show that she is a real intellectual or she has some kind of occupational or educational prestige.

这种情况的设置不利于任何试图表明自己是真正的知识分子或拥有某种职业或教育声望的女性。

COWEN

I have so many naive, uninformed questions, but why is the music so loud in these clubs?

我有很多天真的、无知的问题，但为什么这些俱乐部的音乐这么吵？

Who benefits from that?

谁从中受益？

MEARS

Who benefits?

谁受益？

COWEN

I find the music too loud in McDonald’s, right?

我觉得麦当劳的音乐太大声了，对吗？

MEARS

Clubs are also in this business of trying to manufacture and experience what Emile Durkheim would call this collective effervescence, like losing yourself in the moment.

俱乐部也在尝试制造和体验埃米尔·涂尔干（Emile Durkheim）所说的集体兴奋，就像在当下迷失自我一样。

And that’s really possible when you’re able to tune out the other things, like if somebody is feeling insecure about the way they dance or if somebody is not sure of what to say.

当你能够排除其他事情时，这确实是可能的，比如有人对自己的舞蹈方式感到不安全，或者有人不确定该说什么。

Having really loud music that has a beat where everybody just does the same thing, which is nod to the beat — that helps to tune people into one another, and it helps build up a vibe and a kind of energy, so the point is to lose yourself in the music in these spaces.

播放非常响亮的音乐，每个人都做同样的事情，这就是对节拍的致敬——这有助于让人们彼此融洽，有助于建立一种氛围和一种能量，所以重点是让自己迷失在这些空间的音乐中。

COWEN

Putting aside your research interests, how much fun was it for you to be in these clubs?

抛开你的研究兴趣不谈，你在这些俱乐部里有多少乐趣？

MEARS

I always say I really wish that I had met these promoters when I was 18 because I was in New York.

我总是说我真希望自己在 18 岁时就认识了这些发起人，因为我当时在纽约。

I was studying at Hunter College for a year, and if I had met the promoters then, it would have been fantastic.

我在亨特学院学习了一年，如果当时我遇到了发起人，那就太好了。

I would have gotten to travel and eat and drink for free and stay out all night and enjoy.

我可以免费旅行、免费吃喝、整夜待在外面享受。

But when I was going back into this world of New York when I was 30, 31, and 32, it was pretty difficult.

但当我 30 岁、31 岁和 32 岁的时候回到纽约的世界时，一切都变得相当困难。

It was pretty grueling.

这真是太累人了。

Just to put it in perspective, the dinner with the promoters would start at around 10:00 at night.

这么说吧，主办方的晚宴会在晚上10:00左右开始。

We head to a club at around midnight, and we stay there until 3:00 am.

我们在午夜左右前往俱乐部，并在那里待到凌晨 3:00。

And the high heels are very high.

而且高跟鞋很高。

The expectation is that women wear these really high heels.

人们期望女性穿着这些真正的高跟鞋。

So it’s physically hard to keep up and be in these spaces.

因此，在这些空间里保持体力是很困难的。

I think that for some of the younger women, that’s their thing.

我认为对于一些年轻女性来说，这就是她们的事。

They love house music, or they love hip-hop music.

他们喜欢浩室音乐，或者他们喜欢嘻哈音乐。

They love to stay out late, get dressed up, be looked at, get drunk, have drugs.

他们喜欢在外面待到很晚、盛装打扮、被人注视、喝醉、吸毒。

It’s fantastic for a young person.

这对一个年轻人来说太棒了。

It’s hard to convey that kind of fun.

很难传达这种乐趣。

And it was hard for me being a sober 30-year-old to also feel it.

作为一个30岁清醒的人，我很难也感受到这一点。

On why models working the party circuit aren’t paid

关于为什么在派对巡回演出的模特没有报酬

COWEN

Why don’t they just pay the women to go to the clubs?

为什么他们不付钱让女性去俱乐部呢？

As you know, in economics it’s typically assumed a cash payment is more efficient than free tuna rolls.

如您所知，在经济学中，通常认为现金支付比免费金枪鱼卷更有效。

What stops that from happening?

是什么阻止了这种情况的发生？

MEARS

I was always asking this of the women.

我总是向女性询问这个问题。

I would say, “Why don’t we just band together and agree to show up at the club together, and then we’ll each get paid a hundred dollars as opposed to going through all of these efforts of the promoter controlling us and mobilizing us, and then he gets paid a thousand dollars?”

我会说，“为什么我们不联合起来，同意一起出现在俱乐部，然后我们每人都会得到一百美元的报酬，而不是经过发起人控制我们和动员我们的所有这些努力，然后他得到一千美元的报酬？”

And the answer was always, “No, I don’t want it to be work.

答案总是：“不，我不想把它变成工作。

I want it to be fun.

我希望它很有趣。

This is leisure, not labor.” And there’s all of these efforts that are expended to make it look like it’s not work, although it is.

这是休闲，不是劳动。”所有这些努力都被花费在让它看起来不起作用，尽管它确实有效。

The women are performing really valuable labor to the club, and lots of profits are being made off of them, but they don’t want to think about it in terms of work.

女性为俱乐部做出了非常有价值的劳动，并从中赚取了大量利润，但她们不想从工作的角度来考虑这一点。

Occasionally some promoters, if they’re running low on girls or they’re in a desperate situation for the night, they’ll call a girl and offer her, say, $40 or $80 to come out as paid.

有时，一些促销员，如果他们的女孩数量不足，或者他们在晚上陷入困境，他们会打电话给一个女孩，并提供 40 或 80 美元，让她付费。

And this is looked down on by the other women as being an act of desperation.

这被其他女性视为绝望的行为。

It’s going to ruin the fun of the night because you have to be there as opposed to wanting to be there.

这会破坏夜晚的乐趣，因为你必须在那里，而不是想要在那里。

COWEN

But that seems like a funny norm.

但这似乎是一个有趣的规范。

Occasionally I’m paid, say, to give talks.

有时候我会得到报酬，比如做演讲。

I can assure you that does not take away from the fun of what I do.

我可以向你保证，这不会剥夺我所做的事情的乐趣。

Couldn’t the young women all just drop this norm, and they would get paid and be better off?

难道年轻女性就不能放弃这个规范吗？这样她们就能得到报酬并过上更好的生活吗？

Aren’t they laboring under some kind of false consciousness here?

他们不是在某种错误的意识下劳作吗？

It’s a degrading experience in some ways, right?

从某些方面来说，这是一种有辱人格的经历，对吗？

The loud music.

喧闹的音乐。

So why not, on the money side, get the better outcome?

那么，为什么不在金钱方面获得更好的结果呢？

MEARS

It’s a degrading experience if it’s not fun, if it’s not made meaningful.

如果它不有趣，如果它没有意义，那么它就是一种有辱人格的体验。

The promoters that are really good at their job — they do it really well to make it meaningful with the young women.

那些真正擅长自己工作的推广者——他们做得非常好，让年轻女性的工作变得有意义。

They’re not just recruiting models off the street, giving them some free tuna rolls, and then saying, “Wear your heels and dance.”

他们不仅仅是在街上招募模特，给他们一些免费的金枪鱼卷，然后说：“穿上高跟鞋跳舞。”

It’s actually that the promoters spend a lot of time developing intimacy and connections with the young women.

事实上，发起人花了很多时间与年轻女性建立亲密关系。

They talk about each other as friends.

他们像朋友一样谈论彼此。

They use this language of friendship.

他们使用这种友谊的语言。

They see themselves as supporting one another, and the girls are loyal to the promoter.

她们认为自己是互相支持的，女孩们也忠于发起人。

Under these kinds of terms, when the women go out with the promoter, it’s usually a combination of things.

在这些条款下，当女性与发起人约会时，通常是多种事情的结合。

Maybe she’s needing free dinner.

也许她需要免费的晚餐。

Maybe she doesn’t have any friends because she’s new to New York City.

也许她没有任何朋友，因为她刚来到纽约。

Maybe she’s sleeping with the promoter, and she thinks that she’s his girlfriend, or maybe she really likes the promoter because they go to the movies every Wednesday afternoon.

也许她和推广人睡了，她认为自己是他的女朋友，或者她真的很喜欢推广人，因为他们每周三下午都去看电影。

Promoters do that.

促销员就是这样做的。

They’ll invite girls for bowling or for picnics or to, whatever, Disneyland.

他们会邀请女孩去打保龄球或野餐，或者去迪士尼乐园等等。

These are relationships that the promoters are cultivating, which they’re then profiting from.

这些是发起人正在培养的关系，然后他们可以从中获利。

So it feels meaningful.

所以感觉很有意义。

It doesn’t feel degrading.

这并不感觉有辱人格。

And for the women for whom it does feel degrading, they typically don’t last very long, or they leave over the course of the night, and they say, “This isn’t for me.”

COWEN

Let’s say you sat down with one of these 20-year-old young women, and you taught them everything you know from your studies, what you know about bodily capital, sociological theories of exploitation.

You could throw at them whatever you wanted.

你可以向他们扔任何你想要的东西。

They would read the book.

他们会读这本书。

They would listen to your video, talk with you.

他们会听你的视频，与你交谈。

Would that change their behavior any?

这会改变他们的行为吗？

MEARS

I don’t think so.

我不这么认为。

No, I don’t think so.

不，我不这么认为。

They might not be too surprised even to learn that this is a job for promoters, and the promoters make money doing this.

即使他们知道这是促销员的工作，并且促销员通过这样做赚钱，他们也可能不会感到太惊讶。

Most of them know that.

他们中的大多数人都知道这一点。

They didn’t know how much money promoters are making.

他们不知道促销员能赚多少钱。

They don’t know how much money the clubs are making, but they know that they’re contributing to those profits, and they know that there’s this inequality built into it.

For some of the women that had a belief that they had the exclusive affections and attention of the promoter — that might come as a surprise.

And those are the sadder moments that I discovered in this economy, when promoters are misleading the young women into thinking that they genuinely have exclusive romantic or intimate intentions, when often a promoter might be sleeping with two or three or several models in order to get them to come out with him at night.

For those women, that might be the drawing line because it’s such an egregious abuse.

对于那些女性来说，这可能是一条底线，因为这是一种令人震惊的虐待行为。

But in this world, there’s a widespread assumption that everybody uses everybody else.

但在这个世界上，有一个普遍的假设：每个人都在利用其他人。

The women are using the club for the pleasures that they can get from it.

女人们使用俱乐部是为了从中获得乐趣。

They’re using the promoter for the pleasures they can get from him, the access.

他们利用发起人是为了从他那里获得乐趣，获得访问权。

The promoters are using the young women.

发起人正在利用年轻女性。

The clients are using the promoters.

客户正在使用促销员。

The drawing line is when there’s a perception of abuse.

划线是当有虐待的感觉时。

People have a clear sense that lying about being exclusively romantic would be a clear violation, so that would be abusive.

人们清楚地意识到，撒谎说自己完全浪漫是一种明显的侵犯，因此这将是一种虐待。

But use is okay.

不过用起来还是没问题的。

Mutual exploitation is okay.

相互剥削是可以的。

COWEN

At the margin, do you think this world should be taxed or subsidized by local policy?

边际上，你认为这个世界应该通过地方政策征税还是补贴？

I mean the words tax and subsidize in a broad way, like noise ordinances, opening hours.

我指的是广义上的征税和补贴这些词，比如噪音条例、开放时间。

They’re implicit policy decisions that help or harm these ventures.

它们是帮助或损害这些企业的隐性政策决定。

What should the policy stance be?

政策立场应该是什么？

MEARS

Well this is kind of out there.

嗯，这就是外面的情况。

As a labor issue, this shows the really unequal and unfair terms of the modeling industry in particular.

作为一个劳工问题，这尤其显示了模特行业的不平等和不公平待遇。

The modeling industry is generating so much profit for the club industry.

模特行业为俱乐部行业带来了如此多的利润。

These unpaid women in the modeling industry — they’re also generating huge untold profits to all of these other industries that benefit from their presence in the clubs, like finance or real estate, where all of these networks of powerful businessmen get consolidated, in part softened through the presence of unpaid women from the modeling industry.

So I think that there could be some case to be made that unpaid fashion models or low-paid fashion models are doing enormous unpaid labor for all of these other hugely profitable industries, where disproportionately the profits are going to men.

So I could see redistribution working in that direction.

所以我可以看到重新分配正在朝这个方向发展。

COWEN

But if you can’t talk them out of what they’re doing, given everything you know .

但鉴于你所知道的一切，如果你无法说服他们停止正在做的事情。

。

and you would be the person to try to do it, right?

你会是尝试这样做的人，对吧？

MEARS

Right.

正确的。

COWEN

Is it that you’re paternalistic or maternalistic toward them?

你对他们是家长式的还是母性式的？

Or you don’t want to respect their preferences?

或者你不想尊重他们的喜好？

How how do you see this at the meta level?

您如何看待元层面的这一点？

MEARS

People participate in their own exploitation all the time.

人们无时无刻不在参与对自己的剥削。

You see this in all kinds of different forms of work.

你可以在各种不同形式的工作中看到这一点。

As academics, yeah, you get paid for your talks, but you’re doing a lot of work that’s unpaid and uncompensated and often unrecognized as well.

All of the service work, all of the things that academia runs on — a lot of this is free labor that we give up because we believe in it and we find it validating.

Someone should tell us not to do it, but we’d probably still do it anyway because it’s validating.

有人应该告诉我们不要这样做，但我们可能仍然会这样做，因为它正在验证。

So I think that exploitation works best when it’s pleasurable and when it’s made meaningful, but that doesn’t mean that the inequities can’t be challenged at a structural level, if at a subjective level people consent to them.

On being a fashion model

关于成为一名时装模特

COWEN

There’s evidence saying that academics are left leaning; dentists tend to lean more toward the right.

有证据表明学术界存在左倾倾向；牙医往往更倾向于右侧。

What are the politics of fashion models, on average?

时装模特的平均政治倾向是什么？

MEARS

They’re young.

他们很年轻。

This is a population of people who are young and often politically unexperienced, and often not educated, especially for women.

这群人很年轻，往往缺乏政治经验，而且往往没有受过教育，尤其是女性。

The age for fashion models, typically their late teenage years into their twenties — this is the age for going to college.

时装模特的年龄，通常是青少年后期到二十多岁——这是上大学的年龄。

So I would have to say that they are amorphous, and perhaps they’re leaning left, if for no other reason because it’s a creative industry and they’re exposed to more creatives and bohemians, who tend to lean to the left or tend to be more progressive.

COWEN

Why is the scouting model so common for finding women who might be fashion models?

为什么星探模特如此普遍地寻找可能成为时装模特的女性？

There’s a scout.

有一个侦察兵。

He goes up to a woman.

他走向一个女人。

He says, “You have that look.

他说：“你就是这个样子。

Come with me.” Why are things done that way?

跟我来吧。”为什么事情会这样？

MEARS

That’s happening less and less in a digital and globally connected world.

在数字化和全球互联的世界中，这种情况越来越少。

It used to be that scouts would travel all across the nine times zones of Russia and go to these beauty pageants across all these different little cities and pluck someone from obscurity and send her to Paris.

But now there’s so many small modeling agencies, or even just women with Wi-Fi connections and Instagrams all around the world, that they can email their pictures directly to a scout who’s based in New York.

So that model is starting to cut down where the professional paid scout, whose job is to go on the hunt, will become less and less, or is becoming less and less.

But that person will just look through pictures on their computer.

但那个人只会浏览计算机上的图片。

They’re still scouting but in a different form.

他们仍在侦察，但形式不同。

COWEN

But isn’t there some physical presence or charisma that doesn’t come through in a photograph?

但是，难道没有一些在照片中无法表现出来的身体存在或魅力吗？

And you need a good scout for that because modeling maybe mainly isn’t even about looks.

为此你需要一个好的星探，因为模特可能主要与外表无关。

MEARS

The thing that models sell in the market is called a look, but you’re definitely right that it’s part physicality, part personality.

模特在市场上卖的东西叫做外观，但你说得对，它一半是身体，一半是个性。

And that comes through in a picture.

这在一张照片中得到了体现。

It comes through in a walk and also a conversation.

它通过散步和谈话来实现。

A lot can be captured in video and Zoom and Instagram, so I think that there are ways to capture that.

视频、Zoom 和 Instagram 可以捕捉到很多东西，所以我认为有很多方法可以捕捉到这些。

But a scout, maybe, who gets a picture and gets the videos that they like from somebody would eventually need to go and meet them in their part of the world — and also, probably, depending if it’s a woman in her age, to meet her parents as well and to develop a rapport, so that someone would feel good about sending their teenage daughter to a new market.

COWEN

How good a scout would you be of fashion models?

作为一名时装模特的星探，你有多优秀？

MEARS

Well, I’m a little bit shy to go and talk to people.

嗯，我有点害羞去和人说话。

A good scout — they have to have a good eye.

一个好的侦察员——他们必须有一双慧眼。

That’s the primary thing.

这是首要的事情。

And to see what they would call a diamond in the rough.

看看他们所说的未经加工的钻石。

I could do that.

我可以做到这一点。

I think that any model that’s gone through the system and is exposed to this kind of look over and over can make these assessments, and to see things together, how different features come together.

But scouts also .

但球探也是如此。

。

I’ve spent some time with them.

我和他们一起度过了一段时间。

They have a kind of ease in talking to young people, and they have an ease in talking with their parents.

他们与年轻人交谈时很轻松，与父母交谈时也很轻松。

And I just don’t have that.

而我就是没有那个。

I think I would feel awkward or creepy, or in some way offering false dreams, that probably I would have serious hesitations about trying to pull somebody into the modeling industry.

COWEN

If a good-quality scout goes up to a 17-year-old young woman and approaches her about being a model, what’s the immediate intermodal reaction to that?

MEARS

I know this from interviewing the models for my first book: surprise.

我通过采访我的第一本书的模特知道这一点：惊喜。

Surprise because, as I said, a scout has to be able to identify a look and to be able to see how somebody who’s not in the context of the fashion modeling industry could be really great under certain kinds of conditions.

These are usually young women.

这些人通常是年轻女性。

Their scouting stories are like, “I was just coming out of soccer practice.” Or “I was just getting off of an overnight airplane, and I had braces, and I was the ugly duckling.

他们的球探故事就像是“我刚刚结束足球训练”。或者“我刚从过夜的飞机上下来，我戴着牙套，我就是丑小鸭。

Nobody looks twice at me in middle school, and then here’s this person saying I should be a model in London or something.” So yeah, surprise.

中学时没有人会多看我一眼，然后这个人就说我应该去伦敦当模特什么的。”所以是的，惊喜。

COWEN

But do 90 percent just tell the guy to buzz off?

但 90% 的人会直接叫他滚开吗？

Or what do they do?

或者他们做什么？

MEARS

I think it’s a mix.

我认为这是一个混合。

That surprise can come with fear that this is something that might be shady.

这种惊讶可能伴随着担心这可能是不正当的事情。

It could also come with a sense of disinterest.

它还可能伴随着一种不感兴趣的感觉。

A lot of people in the modeling industry — they have a couple of experiences with getting scouted.

模特行业的很多人 ——他们都有过一些被星探发掘的经历。

The first time might be complete surprise and, yeah, this might be creepy.

第一次可能会完全令人惊讶，是的，这可能会令人毛骨悚然。

Or “Buzz off, I’m not interested right now.” But if it happens again or a third time, then the idea starts to develop that maybe there’s something to it.

或者“别说话，我现在不感兴趣。”但如果这种情况再次发生或第三次，那么这个想法就会开始发展，也许其中有什么道理。

COWEN

And were you scouted?

你被侦察了吗？

MEARS

I was, yeah.

我是，是的。

COWEN

How did you respond?

你怎么回应的？

MEARS

It happened a couple of times at the mall that a scout would come approach me.

在商场里发生过几次，有一名球探来接近我。

COWEN

Which state is this?

这是哪个州？

MEARS

I grew up in the suburbs of Atlanta, so I spent a lot of time in the fashion malls of Atlanta in my teenage years.

我在亚特兰大郊区长大，所以青少年时期我花了很多时间在亚特兰大的时尚购物中心。

And a scout would come up and say, “Oh, I’d love for you to come into the office.

一个球探会走过来说：“哦，我希望你能到办公室来。

And you could probably work if you’re interested.

如果你有兴趣的话，你可能可以工作。

Have you ever thought about becoming a model?”

你有没有想过成为一名模特？”

But by the time that that had happened, I was already told by people, like my friends in high school, that I was skinny enough, that I looked like one of these girls in these magazines, and I should consider it.

So it was already on my mind that it was something that I wanted to do.

所以我已经意识到这是我想做的事情。

Then, of course, my mom — she sent me a Vogue magazine, 1993.

然后，当然，我妈妈——她给我寄了一本《Vogue》杂志，1993 年。

Cindy Crawford was on the cover.

辛迪·克劳馥登上了封面。

I still have it.

我还留着呢。

Then I just got really into whatever fashion modeling was.

然后我就真正进入了时装模特界。

I didn’t fully understand, but I was like, “I want to be this.”

我并不完全理解，但我想，“我想成为这样。”

COWEN

Do you regret having been a model?

你后悔当模特吗？

MEARS

No, not at all.

不，一点也不。

I regret that I didn’t use it in a smarter way because I started traveling to Milan and Japan when I was 19 and 20.

我很遗憾没有以更聪明的方式使用它，因为我在 19 岁和 20 岁的时候就开始去米兰和日本旅行。

That’s still quite a young age, mentally and emotionally, to pick up and go somewhere.

从精神上和情感上来说，这个年纪还很年轻，无法去某个地方。

But I sometimes feel like if I knew what I know now back then, I could have built stronger connections with interesting people.

但有时我觉得，如果我当时知道我现在所知道的，我就可以与有趣的人建立更牢固的联系。

I could have tried harder to understand the creative side of producing fashion.

我本可以更加努力地理解时尚制作的创意方面。

I could have tried harder to get involved in photography, which I found interesting, but it was always on the margins of.

我本可以更加努力地涉足摄影，我发现摄影很有趣，但它总是处于边缘。

So it opens up all these doors that, frankly, at 18, I wasn’t really capable of seeing.

所以它打开了所有这些大门，坦率地说，在我 18 岁的时候，我并没有真正看到这些大门。

On why fashion models don’t smile

为什么时装模特不微笑

COWEN

There’s a significant subset of models who, at least to me, appear to be distant, unapproachable, and they look pissed off.

有相当一部分模特，至少对我来说，显得冷漠、难以接近，而且看起来很生气。

Why is that?

这是为什么？

MEARS

There’s a wonderful dissertation out of the University of Amsterdam called “Why Fashion Models Don’t Smile.”

阿姆斯特丹大学有一篇精彩的论文，名为“为什么时装模特不微笑”。

COWEN

And why don’t they?

他们为什么不呢？

MEARS

It depends which segment of the fashion modeling market we’re talking about.

这取决于我们谈论的是时装模特市场的哪个部分。

If you look in your catalogs that used to come in the mail but now are mostly online, models are pretty relatable.

如果您查看过去通过邮件发送但现在主要在线提供的目录，就会发现模型非常相关。

They have the kind of look that would be described as girl next door, classic apple pie.

她们的外表被形容为邻家女孩，经典的苹果派。

You see a lot of smiles when people are selling things directly in the catalog or commercial realm, on television commercials as well.

当人们直接在目录或商业领域以及电视广告中销售商品时，您会看到很多微笑。

Really relatable people.

真正有关联的人。

Aspirational in the way they look.

他们的外表充满抱负。

They look good, but they’re connecting, they’re smiling, and they’re not meant to be intimidating.

他们看起来不错，但他们在交流，他们在微笑，而且他们并不意味着令人生畏。

Unlike the editorial side of fashion, which is the catwalk or the magazines, especially the Vogue magazines.

与时尚的编辑方面不同，时尚的编辑是时装秀或杂志，尤其是《Vogue》杂志。

These are the kinds of looks of models that are projecting what people in the fashion world think of as being in fashion.

这些模特的着装反映了时尚界人们对时尚的看法。

And those kinds of models almost never smile.

而这类模特几乎从不微笑。

There’s almost never a smile on the catwalk.

T台上几乎没有笑容。

It’s remarkable.

这很了不起。

It’s supposed to be all about showing the clothes and projecting this aspirational, distant kind of beauty that is not meant to be relatable.

它应该是为了展示衣服并投射出这种令人向往的、遥远的美感，但这种美感并不意味着让人产生共鸣。

If I could add, a lesson from the art world is that the more people and the more socially different types of people that a work of art is meant to relate to, the lesser its value.

So in the editorial end of the market, the fact that your average consumer doesn’t get that kind of look, doesn’t get that cold, distant unsmiling body or face — that’s deliberate.

It’s not meant to make sense to you.

这对你来说没有意义。

It’s meant to make sense to the Anna Wintours of the world.

这对全世界的安娜·温图尔 (Anna Wintours) 来说是有意义的。

COWEN

In your work on modeling in Japan, you once wrote that Western female models in Japan are often portrayed as “silly, harmless, and incompetent.” Why is that equilibrium in Japan?

In your work on modeling in Japan, you once wrote that Western female models in Japan are often portrayed as “silly, harmless, and incompetent.”为什么日本会出现这种平衡？

MEARS

Yeah, I modeled in Japan, and these are just some observations.

是的，我在日本当模特，这些只是一些观察。

I didn’t do a comparison with the local models, like Japanese models.

我没有和本土模特做比较，比如日本模特。

But indeed, there were lots of observations I took of the Western models coming into Japan and doing all kinds of just bizarre, silly things, infantilizing things.

There’s some interpretivist cultural studies that I reference in that paper that suggested this is a way of diffusing the Western hegemony, or maybe bridging the divide between Western beauty and Eastern beauty, but I’m really not sure.

COWEN

But that also might account for what you call the model’s passivity in the Japanese market.

但这也可能解释了你所说的该模型在日本市场的被动性。

MEARS

Yeah, but it’s really the terms of the work in the Japanese market.

是的，但这确实是日本市场的工作条件。

It produces passivity unlike anything I’d ever experienced because of the language barrier.

由于语言障碍，它产生了不同于我经历过的任何事情的被动性。

The way that models would usually have a little bit of control in the casting situation is to talk, to show their personalities, to connect, to relate.

And it’s really difficult in the Japanese market because Western models — not only do they not speak Japanese, and most Japanese people do not speak English in the fashion world and in lots of other worlds.

So the solution there is that every agency has a manager whose job is also to drive the models to their castings and then introduce the models to the clients.

Then clients talk in Japanese and the model stands there.

然后客户用日语交谈，模特就站在那里。

And then the manager introduces the next one.

然后经理介绍下一位。

So it’s just a very weird, passive experience.

所以这只是一种非常奇怪、被动的体验。

It also meant that a lot of my time in Tokyo was spent in the back of a van being driven around with Ukrainian teenagers, looking out the window.

That’s my impression of Tokyo.

这就是我对东京的印象。

On things under- and overrated

关于被低估和高估的事情

COWEN

Now, in the middle of these chats, we usually have the segment, overrated versus underrated.

现在，在这些聊天中，我们通常会遇到被高估和被低估的部分。

I’ll toss out a few notions.

我会抛出一些想法。

You tell me what you think.

你告诉我你的想法。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

MEARS

Okay, sure.

好吧，当然。

COWEN

The importance of what sociologists call loose ties — overrated or underrated?

社会学家所说的松散关系的重要性——被高估还是低估？

MEARS

Umm, is there an option to say it’s appropriate?

嗯，有一个选项可以说它是合适的吗？

COWEN

Of course.

当然。

MEARS

Yeah, I think that this is appropriate.

是的，我认为这是合适的。

I would be somewhat doing a disservice to my discipline if I were to say that it’s been overrated because it is one of the major findings within economic sociology that’s continually shown that there are all these advantages for having loose ties, arm’s-length ties.

COWEN

The French sociologist Pierre Bourdieu — overrated or underrated?

法国社会学家皮埃尔·布迪厄——被高估还是被低估？

MEARS

Hmmm.

嗯。

Again, I have to be careful here because, you know, one of my fields is as a cultural sociologist.

再次强调，我在这里必须小心，因为，你知道，我的领域之一是作为一名文化社会学家。

COWEN

Of course.

当然。

MEARS

You can’t write a paper without citing the guy.

你不能在不引用这个人的情况下写一篇论文。

COWEN

But a critic would say it’s a very 1970s, 1980s French notion of hierarchy that is itself hierarchical, very limited.

但批评者会说，这是一种非常 20 世纪 70 年代、80 年代法国的等级观念，它本身就是等级制的，非常有限。

He covers gender only much later.

It probably doesn’t even apply to the rest of France.

它甚至可能不适用于法国其他地区。

Or yet — true or false?

MEARS

It’s true.

这是真的。

Yeah, it’s true.

是的，这是真的。

And there’ve been important correctives to that, but it was a huge contribution to insert culture into class hierarchy, so everybody pays homage for that reason.

COWEN

The movie Zoolander — overrated or underrated?

电影《超级英雄》——被高估还是低估？

MEARS

Underrated!

被低估了！

We should all still watch Zoolander.

This is a fantastic treatise on gender and the impossibilities of male beauty.

这是一篇关于性别和男性美的不可能的精彩论文。

COWEN

It’s one of my favorites.

Miami Beach.

迈阿密海滩。

Is it actually fun?

它真的很有趣吗？

Overrated?

被高估了？

What do you think?

你怎么认为？

MEARS

Overrated, yeah.

被高估了，是的。

Overrated, although there’s pockets of it that I think are probably more interesting.

被高估了，尽管我认为其中有一些地方可能更有趣。

But the glossy, glitzy, glamorous part of Miami Beach — totally overrated.

但迈阿密海滩光鲜亮丽、迷人的部分——完全被高估了。

It’s your thing of all glamor, bad food.

COWEN

Osaka, Japan — what do you think?

MEARS

It’s been 15 years, but yeah.

已经过去 15 年了，但是，是的。

I like those little octopus fried balls.

Underrated.

被低估了。

COWEN

Okay.

好的。

If you didn’t remember it, it would have to be overrated.

如果你不记得了，那它就被高估了。

Right?

正确的？

MEARS

Right.

正确的。

COWEN

REM, the musical group.

REM，音乐团体。

You went to school in Athens, Georgia.

MEARS

Yeah, underrated.

是的，被低估了。

Although right now, because of that hit song, “It’s the End of the World as We Know It” — they’re having a moment coming back.

尽管现在，因为那首热门歌曲“这是我们所知的世界末日” —— 他们正在享受回归的时刻。

Perhaps unfortunate.

也许是不幸的。

COWEN

Champagne — I don’t like it.

Am I wrong?

我错了吗？

Am I missing something?

我错过了什么吗？

Is it just status signaling?

这只是状态信号吗？

So much of your work is about signaling.

Do you have to conclude champagne is overrated?

MEARS

I have to conclude it’s overrated.

But there is something really delightful about it as a party good because you can shake it and spray it without destroying clothes unlike, say, red wine.

And it’s bubbly, and this is kind of mad.

It has a sort of fun, magical quality.

So yeah, on the whole overrated.

Well, overrated because you can get all those things with Prosecco.

好吧，被高估了，因为你可以通过普罗塞克获得所有这些东西。

COWEN

Here’s a question from a reader, and I quote, “How has her own beauty and glamor influenced her academic career?

这是一位读者提出的问题，我引用一下：“她自己的美丽和魅力如何影响了她的学术生涯？

Does she find beauty-based biases in academia, either positive or negative?”

她是否发现学术界存在基于美丽的偏见，无论是积极的还是消极的？”

MEARS

Well, I think that looks matter everywhere, and academia is no exception.

嗯，我认为外表在任何地方都很重要，学术界也不例外。

In my own experience, there’s this double-edged sword for women’s beauty.

根据我自己的经验，女性的美丽是一把双刃剑。

Some studies show that it’s important, for women especially, to conform to these traditional notions of beautiful, but they can’t overdo it in the professional workplace.

So some makeup is appropriate, but too much eyeliner is considered too sexual and inappropriate.

所以有些妆容是合适的，但过多的眼线则被认为过于性感，不合适。

I tried to balance that, for instance, even before I got my job at Boston University.

例如，甚至在我在波士顿大学找到工作之前，我就试图平衡这一点。

I was coached by my advisor to dress in a fairly drab way to really try to assert my authority and to distance myself from the femininity and the beauty, which was always going to be plaguing me because of my work and because of the fact that I was a model.

我的顾问指导我穿得相当单调，以真正尝试维护自己的权威，并远离女性气质和美丽，因为我的工作和我是一名模特，这总是困扰着我。

So I tried to distance it as I could.

That question though, for sure, I think at an interactional level, having beauty definitely eases the way for people to respond more favorably to me because of that halo effect of beauty.

Maybe people are more likely to answer an email or to agree to a meeting.

也许人们更有可能回复电子邮件或同意参加会议。

Or the meeting will go smoothly, and people will listen more to what I say because I look the way I do.

或者会议会进行得很顺利，人们会更多地听我说的话，因为我看起来就是这样。

I’ll find that out.

我会找出答案的。

I mean, that question is to be continued because, as we know, as women age, they so-called lose their bodily capital.

我的意思是，这个问题要继续下去，因为众所周知，随着女性年龄的增长，她们所谓的身体资本就会消失。

Aging comes with the decline of beauty for women.

对于女性来说，衰老伴随着美丽的衰退。

So I’ll have to answer that in, say, 10 or 15 years.

所以我必须在 10 或 15 年后回答这个问题。

COWEN

What kinds of emotional labor do women professors have to perform that maybe the male professors do not?

哪些情感劳动是女教授必须做而男教授可能不会做的？

MEARS

This is a perennial conversation that I have with my women colleagues about the number of students that ask for exceptions in their grades, especially of younger faculty, young women faculty, the number of students that open up with their problems.

这是我与女同事们经常进行的对话，内容涉及要求成绩例外的学生数量，尤其是年轻教师、年轻女教师，以及敢于提出问题的学生数量。

And we’re more likely, I think, to keep tissues in our offices for crying students than our male colleagues.

我认为，与男同事相比，我们更有可能在办公室里为哭泣的学生准备纸巾。

So, there’s that.

所以，就是这样。

Just kind of being a crutch to students and being seen as somebody that’s more relatable by virtue of age and by gender means that we have more of these kinds of drains on our emotional work than male colleagues.

I don’t know if you would agree or if you find that.

我不知道你是否同意或者你是否发现了这一点。

Do you also keep tissues in your office?

COWEN

I don’t.

我不知道。

But my office is so crowded.

但我的办公室太拥挤了。

I think actually everything is in there, and probably that includes some tissues.

我想实际上所有东西都在里面，可能还包括一些纸巾。

MEARS

Right.

正确的。

COWEN

I think of you broadly as being anthropological, even though you’re a sociologist.

尽管您是一名社会学家，但我认为您总体上是一位人类学学者。

MEARS

Yeah.

是的。

COWEN

If you view academia with your anthropological hat on, what about it seems most comical or most stupid to you, or just strange and bizarre?

如果你戴着人类学的帽子来看待学术界，那么对你来说，它看起来最滑稽或最愚蠢，或者只是奇怪和怪异？

MEARS

What’s strange or bizarre?

That’s a really interesting question.

这是一个非常有趣的问题。

So many things about it.

关于它的事情有很多。

I guess the way that it portends to be so meritocratic.

我想这预示着精英统治。

Thinking here about academia and the world of professors, the way that it’s very meritocratic.

想想学术界和教授的世界，这是非常精英化的。

Ostensibly, within sociology, we’re so attuned to inequalities by gender and by class and by race.

表面上，在社会学领域，我们非常适应性别、阶级和种族的不平等。

That’s the bread and butter of our discipline.

And yet, we reproduce inequities all the time, not in the least with this notion of the disproportionate amount of emotional work of women faculty, disproportionate ways that women faculty and people of color do more service work.

然而，我们一直在重现不平等，尤其是女性教师的情感工作量不成比例，女性教师和有色人种从事更多服务工作的方式不成比例。

Certain kinds of hierarchies get reproduced in the hiring all the time.

某些类型的等级制度总是在招聘过程中重现。

So, even though we’re supposedly all about equity, it’s just the fact that somebody who is tied to a prominent person or an Ivy university will catch our eye.

So we have now discussions about how to safeguard against those biases.

因此，我们现在正在讨论如何防止这些偏见。

But, yeah.

但是，是的。

That is kind of a bizarre thing, the way we reproduce inequalities all the time.

这是一件奇怪的事情，我们总是以这种方式重现不平等。

COWEN

If we’re concerned about inequality, including for women who have a childbearing cycle, shouldn’t we just abolish tenure?

如果我们担心不平等，包括有生育周期的女性的不平等，我们难道不应该废除保有权吗？

MEARS

Right.

正确的。

Or maybe not abolish it, but maybe change the terms of it so that the clock doesn’t completely overlap with the so-called biological clock for women who want to have families.

Perhaps there could be a way to lengthen it, or pause it, or start it in a way that makes it fit better with having kids.

也许有一种方法可以延长它，或者暂停它，或者以一种更适合生孩子的方式开始它。

I had my kids right when I got tenure.

I had my first child — she arrived right after I received my positive tenure decision.

我有了我的第一个孩子——她在我收到积极的终身教职决定后就出生了。

I didn’t plan it that way, but it worked out really luckily.

我没有那样计划，但结果真的很幸运。

But I remember in graduate school, a couple of people had kids in grad school.

但我记得在研究生院时，有几个人的孩子正在读研究生。

And I was thinking, “No, this is ridiculous.

That’s not the right plan.” I could never imagine having kids in grad school, but actually, it does make sense to.

That’s not the right plan.”我无法想象让孩子读研究生，但实际上，这确实有意义。

In grad school, you have a lot more control over your time.

在研究生院，你对自己的时间有更多的控制权。

You’re a lot more flexible, fewer demands.

你更加灵活，要求更少。

And you can stretch your grad school clock in a way.

你可以在某种程度上延长你的研究生学习时间。

So, in some ways, sometimes looking back, I think that’s also an option, to maybe loosen up the expectation that women have kids after their careers are all stitched up.

Because that’s what I followed, and it worked out for me, but it can’t work out for everyone.

因为这就是我所遵循的，它对我有用，但并不适合所有人。

And it also was quite a big stress for those six years.

这六年的压力也很大。

COWEN

If you think about the question, what is your unified theory of you?

如果你思考这个问题，你的统一理论是什么？

You have this early career as a fashion model and your current career as an academic and also as an author.

您早期的职业生涯是一名时装模特，目前的职业生涯是一名学者和作家。

They’re all winner-take-all sectors.

Do you think of yourself as, in some sense, you keep on doing the same thing in different areas?

从某种意义上说，您是否认为自己在不同领域不断做同样的事情？

Or do you think of your current career as a rebellion against what you did before?

或者你认为你现在的职业是对你之前所做的事情的反叛吗？

MEARS

I should say, I was a really good student all throughout high school and college, and I got into the modeling as a side job.

我应该说，我在整个高中和大学期间都是一个非常好的学生，我把模特作为副业。

Then I found a way, through sociology, to turn my experiences in modeling into an academic project.

然后我找到了一种方法，通过社会学，将我在模特方面的经验转化为一个学术项目。

And I could even see when I was in college, reading these ethnographies of the workplace — because I took this great class on the sociology of work — I could see, “Wow, someone should really do this of fashion modeling.

And I could be the Barbara Ehrenreich in sociology of fashion and high status.”

我可以成为时尚和高地位社会学领域的芭芭拉·埃伦瑞奇（Barbara Ehrenreich）。”

In some ways, I’ve always been a student.

从某些方面来说，我一直都是一名学生。

First and foremost, my alignment was in academia.

首先也是最重要的，我的立场是在学术界。

And I was always searching for the status and the winner-take-all hierarchy of academia.

我一直在寻找学术界的地位和赢家通吃的等级制度。

And modeling kind of got me there.

And now —

而现在——

COWEN

So, you enjoy the thrill of winner-take-all markets?

那么，您享受赢家通吃市场的快感吗？

MEARS

Well, yes and no. I can’t say that I’m like a winner in the academic field.

嗯，是的，也不是。我不能说我是学术领域的胜利者。

I mean, yes, having a good tenure job is, because I know that they’re increasingly in short supply.

我的意思是，是的，拥有一份好的终身职位是很重要的，因为我知道它们越来越供不应求。

But, in some ways, it’s less volatile of a world than these cultural production fields.

但在某些方面，这个世界的波动性比这些文化生产领域要小。

It’s the complete opposite of job model.

这与工作模式完全相反。

Once you get a tenure-track job, and once you get tenure especially, you can’t be fired, barring some sort of real problems.

一旦你获得了终身教职，特别是一旦你获得了终身教职，你就不会被解雇，除非出现一些真正的问题。

It’s lifetime security in an age in the workforce in which this is just shrinking.

在这个劳动力市场日益萎缩的时代，这是终身保障。

It’s so rare to have this kind of privilege of lifetime job security.

拥有这种终身工作保障的特权是非常罕见的。

And really — knock on wood — because as universities are facing these challenges, it just entered my mind in the last month, “Wow, what would happen if I didn’t have this lifetime job security that I’ve counted on?”

But it’s the complete opposite.

但这完全相反。

Fashion modeling is a 180 where you can be dismissed from one day to the next and your fortunes can change for the better or for the worst.

时装模特是一个 180 度大转弯，你可能日复一日地被解雇，你的命运可能会变得更好或更坏。

So, yeah, it’s a winner take all, maybe in terms of prestige.

所以，是的，这是赢家通吃，也许就声望而言。

But once you’re in the tenured world, it’s pretty steady.

但一旦你进入终身职位，一切就相当稳定了。

COWEN

There’s a common perception that Korean culture is relatively oppressive for young women.

人们普遍认为韩国文化对年轻女性来说相对压抑。

There’s a certain way they’re expected to look or maybe to have plastic surgery.

人们期望他们看起来有某种特定的样子，或者可能会接受整容手术。

MEARS

Yep.

是的。

COWEN

Do you agree with that?

你同意吗？

And if so, why is it?

如果是这样，为什么呢？

MEARS

That’s right.

这是正确的。

I saw this on the question log.

我在问题日志上看到了这个。

I thought that maybe you were asking me at first because my dad is half Korean, so my grandmother is Korean.

我想也许你一开始问我是因为我爸爸有一半韩国血统，所以我的祖母也是韩国人。

She was born and raised in Hawaii.

她在夏威夷出生和长大。

But in any case, I have never been to Korea, and so, my Korean connections, actually, really, I know from the literature.

但无论如何，我从未去过韩国，所以，我与韩国的联系，实际上，真的，我是从文献中了解到的。

But to your question, it’s a common perception that plastic surgery is oppressive.

但对于你的问题，人们普遍认为整容手术是一种压迫。

But from my understanding, there’s an opposite reading, which is that it’s really validating and really quite pleasurable to modify the appearance.

So, you’re right.

所以，你是对的。

In South Korea — it leads the world in double eyelid surgery to make that eyelid fold that is typical of a Western-shaped eye, but less so of an Asian-shaped eye.

在韩国，它在双眼皮手术方面处于世界领先地位，其双眼皮褶皱具有西方形状的眼睛的典型特征，但亚洲形状的眼睛则不太如此。

This is often read as “Oh, this is like internalized white Western hegemony onto Asian people.” But I actually think it’s a bit more complicated than that.

这通常被解读为“哦，这就像西方白人对亚洲人的霸权内化。”但我实际上认为事情比这更复杂。

There’s a certain kind of beauty that is really popular throughout Asia because of the rise of K-Pop stars.

由于韩国流行歌星的崛起，有一种美在整个亚洲非常流行。

And this kind of Asian beauty has a very specific kind of face that’s very pale skin with a certain kind of makeup regime around it, and yes, the eyes.

这种亚洲美女有一种非常特殊的脸，皮肤非常苍白，周围有某种化妆方式，是的，还有眼睛。

But it would be hard to say that anybody is looking in Asia to the West as the beauty standard.

但很难说有人将亚洲视为西方的美丽标准。

I think, within Asia, people are looking to K-Pop as a beauty standard now.

我认为，在亚洲，人们现在正在将韩国流行音乐视为美容标准。

And in the US, there’s all kinds of things that could be read as oppressive, too, that people do, like hair extensions, and these eyelash extensions to make really long and dark eyelashes, and all kinds of practices that, when you actually talk to people — they’re very validating or they feel pleasurable.

在美国，人们也会做各种各样可能被解读为压迫性的事情，比如接发、接睫毛，让睫毛又长又黑，还有各种各样的做法，当你真正与人交谈时，他们会非常认可或感到愉快。

Where do those pleasures come from?

那些快乐从何而来？

Sure, a Marxist could say that it’s all false consciousness.

当然，马克思主义者可以说这都是错误的意识。

But I think that there’s probably lots more interesting answers.

但我认为可能还有很多更有趣的答案。

COWEN

In America today, for women, what do you think distinguishes most clearly notions of upper-class beauty and lower-class beauty?

在当今的美国，对于女性来说，你认为上层阶级美和下层阶级美的概念最明显的区别是什么？

MEARS

All right, I think that upper-class beauty, upper-class bodies are pretty uniformly thin.

好吧，我觉得上流美女，上流身材都是很瘦的。

That’s the economy of plenty: Whoever has money can afford quality food and getting to the gym, as opposed to an economy of scarcity — having a kind of plump, a rotund belly would be a sign of having extra money or of wealth.

这就是富足经济：任何有钱的人都可以买得起优质食物并去健身房，这与稀缺经济不同——拥有丰满圆润的腹部将是拥有额外金钱或财富的标志。

So, yeah, definitely thinness.

所以，是的，绝对是瘦。

And if you look at the rates of obesity and overweight, there’s a very clear divide.

如果你看看肥胖率和超重率，就会发现有一个非常明显的鸿沟。

People who are upper class tend to be thinner, and people who are lower class tend to be larger.

上层阶级的人往往比较瘦，下层阶级的人往往比较大。

That’s one clear distinction.

这是一个明显的区别。

Otherwise, all of the things that are signals of beauty tend to be things that people who have money can afford to invest in: straight teeth, clear skin, blonde highlights, or just kind of shiny hair, kept-up nails.

否则，所有象征美丽的东西往往都是有钱人可以投资的东西：整齐的牙齿、干净的皮肤、金色的亮点，或者只是闪亮的头发、保养得很好的指甲。

Clothing signifies a lot.

服装意义重大。

These are all things that people with money can work on themselves to achieve.

这些都是有钱人可以通过自己的努力来实现的。

On the Ashley Mears production function

关于 Ashley Mears 生产函数

COWEN

For our very last segment, we turn to what I call the Ashley Mears production function.

对于我们的最后一部分，我们转向我所说的阿什利米尔斯生产函数。

Who first spotted your talent as an academic?

谁最先发现了您的学术天赋？

MEARS

There are two of them.

其中有两个。

At the University of Georgia in the sociology department, it was William Finlay.

佐治亚大学社会学系的负责人是威廉·芬利 (William Finlay)。

He’s a sociologist of work, and also James Coverdill.

他是一位工作社会学家，也是詹姆斯·科弗迪尔。

They wrote a book on headhunters, so they were attuned to questions of nonstandard work, precarious work.

他们写了一本关于猎头的书，因此他们适应了非标准工作、不稳定工作的问题。

When I took the Sociology of Work class with James Coverdill, he was like, “Yeah, you should do this, a sociology of work about fashion models.

当我和詹姆斯·科弗迪尔一起上工作社会学课时，他说：“是的，你应该做这个，关于时装模特的工作社会学。

Definitely.” Then he put me in touch with William.

绝对是。”然后他让我联系了威廉。

I was just emailing with them last week.

我上周刚刚和他们发了电子邮件。

They stayed my mentors for a long time.

他们很长一段时间都是我的导师。

COWEN

And, if you’re looking for promising young sociologists, or anthropologists for that matter, what’s the nonobvious signal you look for?

而且，如果你正在寻找有前途的年轻社会学家或人类学家，你寻找的不明显信号是什么？

Yes, hard work.

是的，辛苦了。

They should be smart and so on.

他们应该很聪明等等。

But beneath the surface, what strikes you?

但在表面之下，是什么触动了你？

MEARS

If somebody has read a lot, and if they’ve read eclectic things, and they have that kind of breadth, that strikes me because that means that they’re curious and interested in a lot of different things and that they can bring that to whatever bizarre topic they end up landing on.

如果一个人读了很多书，如果他们读过不拘一格的东西，而且他们有这样的广度，这会让我印象深刻，因为这意味着他们对很多不同的事物感到好奇和感兴趣，并且他们可以将其带入他们最终遇到的任何奇怪的主题。

COWEN

What’s the weirdest set of things you like to read or have read, other than about fashion modeling and the party circuit?

除了时装模特和派对巡回演出之外，您喜欢阅读或读过的最奇怪的事情是什么？

MEARS

And guidebooks for restaurants for economists.

以及经济学家的餐厅指南。

MEARS

I read a lot of ethnographies within sociology.

我读了很多社会学领域的民族志。

That’s probably not a surprise.

这可能并不奇怪。

It’s kind of within my field.

这属于我的领域。

But I’m also reading now — because I have two kids, I like to read advice books for parents, ranging from kitschy ones on up to, like, from economists on what the data say are the best child-rearing practices.

但我现在也在读书 ——因为我有两个孩子，我喜欢读给父母的建议书，从庸俗的书到经济学家的书，从数据上看，什么是最好的育儿方式。

So, that’s where I’m in now.

所以，这就是我现在的处境。

Yeah, having kids, maybe not a surprise, kind of put me in this parenting literature.

是的，有了孩子，也许并不奇怪，让我进入了育儿文学。

COWEN

And what’s the best advice you either have read or would offer to other people on parenting?

您读过或愿意向其他人提供的有关育儿的最佳建议是什么？

MEARS

To people on parenting?

对于养育子女的人？

COWEN

Sure.

当然。

You’ve read all these books.

你已经读过所有这些书了。

You have an opinion.

你有意见。

Tell the parents out there.

告诉外面的父母。

My daughter is 30.

我女儿30岁了。

Maybe I still need some advice.

也许我还需要一些建议。

But what do you say?

但你怎么说呢？

MEARS

Usually that kind of question would invite an individualistic answer.

通常这种问题会招致个人主义的回答。

That’s the problem with the literature, that it’s all you as an individual parent, what you should or shouldn’t do.

这就是文献的问题，作为个体父母，你应该做什么或不应该做什么。

Maybe because I’m a sociologist, but my advice for parents in this country is to mobilize.

也许因为我是一名社会学家，但我对这个国家的父母的建议是动员起来。

Because it’s a complete crisis that we don’t have paid parental leave, that there’s no state supports for daycare.

因为我们没有带薪产假，也没有国家对日托的支持，这完全是一场危机。

I think that that’s one of the tragic but really important things about the pandemic right now, is that it’s revealing just how difficult it is to combine a career with family.

我认为这是目前这场大流行病的悲惨但真正重要的事情之一，它揭示了将事业与家庭结合起来是多么困难。

And the United States is just exceptional in how unfriendly it is for family policy.

美国的家庭政策非常不友好，这是个例外。

So yeah, mobilize.

所以是的，动员起来。

COWEN: What is your most unusual writing or work habit?

COWEN：您最不寻常的写作或工作习惯是什么？

MEARS

These are interesting questions.

这些都是有趣的问题。

I used to have a pretty consistent flow before I had kids.

在我生孩子之前，我的生活一直很稳定。

That got disrupted.

这被打乱了。

And that’s what a lot of people say.

这就是很多人所说的。

They write in these certain chunks of time, day after day.

他们日复一日地在这些特定的时间段里写作。

And that’s how they’re able to accomplish it.

这就是他们能够实现这一目标的方式。

But here’s a weird habit that I picked up in college, and it stayed with me.

但我在大学里养成了一个奇怪的习惯，并且一直伴随着我。

It’s that I eat something sweet.

就是我吃了甜的东西。

In college, I would munch on a box of Dunkin’ Donuts to get through a term paper.

在大学里，我会咀嚼一盒邓肯甜甜圈来完成学期论文。

Now, I find whatever cookies my kids have.

现在，我会找到我孩子们拥有的所有饼干。

I always have some sweet junk food.

我总是吃一些甜的垃圾食品。

This is probably not really great advice for anybody, but it’s just my habit now.

这对任何人来说可能都不是一个很好的建议，但这只是我现在的习惯。

COWEN

To the audience, I would like again to recommend Ashley’s book.

我想再次向观众推荐阿什利的书。

It is called, again, Very Important People: Status and Beauty in the Global Party Circuit.

它再次被称为“非常重要的人物：全球派对巡回赛中的地位和美丽”。

It is quality research, fantastic, fun to read.

这是高质量的研究，非常棒，读起来很有趣。

I learned a great deal from it.

我从中学到了很多。

I think it will be a big hit.

我认为这会很受欢迎。

Definitely one of my favorite books of this year or, indeed, would be of years past.

绝对是我今年最喜欢的书之一，事实上，也是过去几年里我最喜欢的书之一。

Ashley, thank you very much for joining us.

阿什利，非常感谢您加入我们。

And best of luck with publication.

祝出版顺利。

MEARS

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you so much again.

再次非常感谢您。