Arthur Brooks on Reinvention, Religion, and the Science of Happiness (Ep. 274)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I’m delighted to be chatting with Arthur C.
今天我很高兴能与 Arthur C. 聊天。
Brooks.
布鲁克斯。
I’ve known him for a long time.
我认识他很久了。
Arthur’s life trajectory is a little difficult to describe.
亚瑟的人生轨迹有点难以描述。
He recently said to me he changes careers every 10 years.
他最近对我说，他每 10 年就会更换一次职业。
He was a professional French horn player in the world of classical music, a well-cited economist, often in the area of cultural economics.
他是古典音乐界的专业圆号演奏家，也是一位经常在文化经济学领域被广泛引用的经济学家。
He has been president of the American Enterprise Institute, has done things with Oprah, has done yet more, now is a professor at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government.
他曾担任美国企业研究所所长，与奥普拉一起做过事情，还做了更多的事情，现在是哈佛大学肯尼迪政府学院的教授。
He has a recent track on the notions of happiness and the meaning of life.
他最近对幸福的概念和生命的意义进行了研究。
He has an important new book out called The Meaning of Your Life: Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness.
他出版了一本重要的新书，名为《生命的意义：在空虚的时代寻找目标》。
Arthur, welcome.
亚瑟，欢迎。
Thank you.
谢谢。
It’s nice to talk to you on your show.
很高兴在你的节目中与你交谈。
Now, you’ve mentioned in one of your books, and I quote, “We Brookses die fairly young.” How does that influence your quest for happiness?
现在，你在你的一本书中提到，我引用，“我们布鲁克斯死得相当年轻。”这如何影响你对幸福的追求？
One of the biggest mistakes that I think that we make in the new science of longevity is the notion that if we could actually take the death date out of our lives, that we would live happier, better lives.
我认为我们在新的长寿科学中犯下的最大错误之一就是认为如果我们真的能够把死亡日期从我们的生活中剔除，我们就会过上更快乐、更好的生活。
I think that’s wrong because you and I as economists understand the importance of scarcity.
我认为这是错误的，因为作为经济学家，你和我都了解稀缺性的重要性。
How scarcity actually gives you the ability to savor things.
稀缺实际上如何让你有能力品味事物。
Scarcity is actually central to savoring, as a matter of fact.
事实上，稀缺实际上是品味的核心。
One of the things that’s pretty interesting in the literature that I’ve seen—as a behavioral economist, I read mostly psychology, of course—is that you tend to look at the lifespan of the same gender parent and then make discounting decisions in your own life on the basis of that.
我在文献中看到的一件非常有趣的事情——作为一名行为经济学家，当然，我读的大部分是心理学——是你倾向于观察同性父母的寿命，然后据此在你自己的生活中做出折扣决定。
My dad, as an academic, just like me, he retired at 62, got sick pretty quickly after that, stopped working because he couldn’t, and then died at 66.
我的父亲，作为一名学者，就像我一样，他 62 岁退休，之后很快就生病了，因为无法工作而停止工作，然后在 66 岁时去世。
I feel like the clock is ticking.
我感觉时钟正在滴答作响。
The result is that my work, I’m savoring it in a different way.
结果是我的工作，我以不同的方式品味它。
I’m making sure that I’m doing things.
我确保我正在做事。
I’m answering questions that I think are important.
我正在回答我认为重要的问题。
The result is I like it better now than I ever did.
结果是我现在比以前更喜欢它。
Maybe it’s better when savoring isn't an illusion, that you’re actually going to live to 94 and not die when your Dad did.
当品味不再是幻觉时，也许更好，因为你实际上会活到 94 岁，而不是像你父亲那样死去。
Is there something to the notion that the real meaning of life is to have a fairly mentally thin existence, not too much introspection, a la Marc Andreessen?
生命的真正意义是精神上相当薄弱的存在，而不是太多的内省，就像马克·安德森那样，这种观点有什么道理吗？
People who have high meanings of life, they’re facing death, or they’re in Ukraine, they’re confronting the Russian monster, and so on.
那些对生命有崇高意义的人，他们面临着死亡，或者他们在乌克兰，他们正在面对俄罗斯怪物，等等。
Isn’t meaning for life, in a way, quite overrated?
在某种程度上，生命的意义不是被高估了吗？
It’s possibly the case, but it really depends on why we would think it’s overrated in the first place.
情况可能是这样，但这实际上取决于我们为什么认为它首先被高估了。
Most of the reason that people would object to a deeply philosophical life is because that requires a lot of suffering.
人们反对深刻的哲学生活的大部分原因是因为这需要很多痛苦。
That kind of introspection actually leads to plenty of pain, but therein lies the contradiction of happiness itself.
这种反省实际上会带来很多痛苦，但其中却存在着幸福本身的矛盾。
Happiness requires a lot of unhappiness.
幸福需要经历很多不幸福。
Now, the definition of happiness is really the right place to start.
现在，幸福的定义确实是正确的起点。
Happiness isn’t a feeling at all.
幸福根本不是一种感觉。
Happiness has feelings associated with it, like the smell of the turkey is associated with your Thanksgiving dinner.
幸福与感觉相关，就像火鸡的气味与感恩节晚餐相关一样。
The smell of the turkey isn’t the same thing as the turkey dinner.
火鸡的气味与火鸡晚餐不同。
The turkey dinner is protein, carbohydrates, and fat, which are the macronutrients.
火鸡晚餐是蛋白质、碳水化合物和脂肪，它们是常量营养素。
Similarly, I think the most compelling definition of happiness is the combination of enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning.
同样，我认为幸福最引人注目的定义是享受、满足和意义的结合。
Meaning that we’re talking about here is just one macronutrient.
这意味着我们在这里讨论的只是一种常量营养素。
The thing that a lot of people like to focus on when meaning becomes painful is enjoyment.
当意义变得痛苦时，很多人喜欢关注的是享受。
I get that.
我明白了。
They feel like they’re a lot happier under the circumstances, but that’s an evanescent macronutrient.
他们觉得自己在这种情况下更快乐，但这是一种转瞬即逝的大量营养素。
The one that’s longest term actually requires that we live fully alive.
最长的期限实际上要求我们充分活着。
That means that we let suffering find us.
这意味着我们让苦难找到我们。
If happiness is not so special, and if the meaning of life is not so special, what is the value you use, a la Sidgwick, to trade off these other values against each other?
如果幸福不是那么特别，如果生命的意义不是那么特别，那么你用什么价值（la Sidgwick）来相互权衡这些其他价值？
What’s your unit of account, so to speak?
可以这么说，你的记账单位是什么？
Yes, I know.
是的，我知道。
That’s a real problem because it turns out that you have a unit of account between protein, carbohydrates, and fat.
这是一个真正的问题，因为事实证明你在蛋白质、碳水化合物和脂肪之间有一个记账单位。
Per gram, they’re five, five, and nine calories respectively.
每克分别含有五卡路里、五卡路里和九卡路里。
There is a way that we can baseline against them.
我们可以通过一种方法来对照它们。
The trouble is that there’s been no really good way except self-evaluation of well-being to understand how enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning, how they actually compare with one another.
问题在于，除了自我评估幸福感之外，没有什么真正好的方法来了解享受、满足感和意义，以及它们之间的实际比较。
They’re highly complex ideas.
它们是非常复杂的想法。
They’re not complicated ideas.
它们并不是复杂的想法。
They’re not accounting ideas.
它们不是会计思想。
The result of it is that there’s a lot that you have to go on with respect to intuition and your own experience.
其结果是，在直觉和你自己的经验方面，你必须继续做很多事情。
What do you think of the pretty common view, it often comes from twin studies, that well over 50 percent of happiness is simply genetic?
您如何看待通常来自双胞胎研究的相当普遍的观点，即超过 50% 的幸福只是遗传的？
Assuming you’re not living in a war zone or dying of terminal cancer.
假设您没有生活在战区或死于晚期癌症。
You grow up a certain way, you were born a certain way, and there you go, you play your cards.
你以某种方式长大，你以某种方式出生，然后你就开始玩你的牌了。
Yes.
是的。
I think that those studies are very robust.
我认为这些研究非常有力。
Lykken and Tellegen in the Minnesota identical twins surveys have shown pretty well, based on personality research, when identical twins were raised in separate homes—which is about as good a structure as about as close to a randomized treatment control experiment that you can get to without a diabolical Harvard experiment to separate babies from their parents—what they find is that between 40 percent and 80 percent of all personality characteristics are genetic, which is to say, Tyler, that your mother really did make you unhappy, I suppose.
Lykken 和 Tellegen 在明尼苏达州同卵双胞胎调查中很好地表明，基于人格研究，当同卵双胞胎在不同的家庭中长大时（这几乎是一种很好的结构，与随机治疗对照实验一样接近，无需进行恶魔般的哈佛实验将婴儿与父母分开），他们发现所有人格特征的 40% 到 80% 都是遗传的，也就是说，泰勒，你的母亲确实让你不快乐，我假设。
That might seem like it obviates or vitiates this whole idea that happiness is something worth pursuing.
这似乎消除或削弱了幸福是值得追求的整个观念。
Actually, it doesn’t because the same studies show that about 50 percent of your tendency toward alcohol abuse is also genetic.
事实上，事实并非如此，因为同样的研究表明，大约 50% 的酗酒倾向也是遗传因素。
Tyler, if you said, “Hey, Arthur, I got a big problem.
泰勒，如果你说：“嘿，亚瑟，我遇到了一个大问题。
Both my parents were drunks, and all four of my grandparents were bootleggers, and I guess I’m doomed to alcoholism,” I’d say, “Tyler, I have a new whiz-bang technology for turning the genetic proclivity from 50 percent to 0 percent.
我的父母都是酒鬼，我的四个祖父母都是走私者，我想我注定要酗酒，”我会说，“泰勒，我有一项新的神技，可以将遗传倾向从 50% 变成 0%。
It’s called not drinking.” In other words, when you understand your genetic tendency, you can tailor your habits.
这叫不喝酒。”换句话说，当你了解自己的遗传倾向时，你就可以调整自己的习惯。
That’s a beautiful thing.
这是一件美好的事情。
Now, one side note, 50 percent, approximately, between 42 percent or 58 percent, depending on the studies that you’re looking at, is genetic.
现在，需要注意的是，大约 50% 是遗传因素，介于 42% 或 58% 之间，具体取决于您正在研究的研究。
Another 25 percent is circumstantial, which is the war zone effect, et cetera, or falling in love, whatever it happens to be.
另外 25% 是环境因素，比如战区效应等等，或者坠入爱河，不管它是什么。
That’s evanescent as well.
这也是转瞬即逝的。
That’s temporary because our moods and our circumstances, they necessarily change.
这是暂时的，因为我们的情绪和环境必然会改变。
The last 25 percent are habits, which allow us to tailor our circumstances, in other words, to get better luck and to manage our genetics.
最后 25% 是习惯，它们使我们能够调整自己的环境，换句话说，以获得更好的运气并管理我们的遗传。
That’s why habits, even though they’re only 25 percent directly, more or less, that’s why they matter the most.
这就是为什么习惯最重要，尽管它们或多或少直接只占 25%。
Not drinking seems much easier to engineer than being happy.
不喝酒似乎比快乐更容易实现。
You can just become a Mormon, and you’ll have a lot of peers who don’t drink.
你只要成为一个摩门教徒，你就会有很多不喝酒的同龄人。
I don’t see many people who become much happier past a certain age.
我没有看到很多人在过了一定年龄后变得更加幸福。
On what happiness books are worth
关于幸福的书有什么价值
What’s the marginal value of books on happiness?
关于幸福的书籍的边际价值是多少？
Is it measured by the price?
是用价格来衡量的吗？
Well, it depends on who wrote the books, Tyler.
好吧，这取决于谁写了这些书，泰勒。
Say your books.
说说你的书。
What does your new book sell for, on the meaning of life?
你关于生命意义的新书卖多少钱？
It’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
Who knows?
谁知道？
That’s actually a good question.
这实际上是一个好问题。
Somewhere between $16 and $30, depending on where you’re buying it, I suppose.
我想，价格在 16 美元到 30 美元之间，具体取决于你在哪里购买。
The real question, and this is something I’m really interested in, is the extent to which habits can actually change your well-being.
真正的问题，也是我真正感兴趣的，是习惯可以在多大程度上真正改变你的幸福感。
There’s a reason, by the way.
顺便说一句，这是有原因的。
There have been a million books on happiness, and happiness still tends to be elusive.
关于幸福的书已经有一百万本了，但幸福仍然是难以捉摸的。
I take your point.
我同意你的观点。
It’s very well taken, and I try to approach it without a lot of hubris.
它非常好，我试着不带太多傲慢来对待它。
Here’s the problem as I’ve seen it.
这是我所看到的问题。
You and I, we’re not just economists.
你和我，我们不仅仅是经济学家。
What we really are—we try to be experts in how to learn stuff.
我们真正的本质是——我们努力成为学习方法方面的专家。
That’s one of the great things about your work.
这是你工作的伟大之处之一。
You’re interested, and you’re curious, and you’re interested in how people are interested, in point of fact.
事实上，你很感兴趣，你很好奇，你对人们如何感兴趣感兴趣。
Here’s actually how you learn something and make it permanently part of your repertoire.
实际上，这就是你如何学习某些东西并使其永久成为你技能的一部分的方法。
Number one, you understand it.
第一，你懂的。
Number two, you practice it.
第二，你练习一下。
Then number three, you share it.
第三，你分享它。
It’s an interesting thing.
这是一件有趣的事情。
My father used to say this.
我父亲曾经说过这样的话。
My father was a PhD biostatistician, a lifelong mathematics and statistics professor.
我的父亲是一位生物统计学博士，也是一位终身数学和统计学教授。
One time I saw him giving a graduate seminar in advanced calculus, a 90-minute lecture with no notes.
有一次我看到他在举办一场高级微积分研究生研讨会，一场 90 分钟的讲座，没有任何笔记。
It was like watching Jascha Heifetz playing the violin.
这就像看雅沙·海菲茨拉小提琴。
It was like a virtuoso performance.
这就像一场艺术大师的表演。
I was of the age.
我已经到了这个年纪了。
I was already in my 20s.
我已经20多岁了。
I admired my dad by that point.
那时我很佩服我的父亲。
I said afterward, I said, “Dad, how did you do it?
我事后说，我说：爸爸，你是怎么做到的？
How do you know that so well?
你怎么知道得这么清楚？
How is that part of your very being?” He was joyful while he was doing it, too, by the way, because he was in a state of flow.
你的这一部分是怎样的？顺便说一下，他在做这件事的时候也很快乐，因为他处于一种心流状态。
He said, “Simple.
他说：“简单。
I learned it.
我学会了。
I’ve taught it 100 times.
我已经教过100次了。
In other words, I’m practicing it in my research, and I’m sharing it constantly because I’m a teacher.” That’s the same way to be a great golfer.
换句话说，我正在我的研究中实践它，并且我不断地分享它，因为我是一名老师。”成为一名出色的高尔夫球手也是如此。
That’s the same way, actually, if you want happiness to not be an impermanent well-being woo-woo internet phenomenon.
事实上，如果你不希望幸福成为一种无常的幸福网络现象，情况也是如此。
You need to understand, actually, what’s going on, that the psychology is biology.
实际上，你需要了解正在发生的事情，心理学就是生物学。
You need to change certain ways that you live, and then you need to share it with other people.
你需要改变你的某些生活方式，然后你需要与其他人分享。
I’ve found that that’s what actually makes the idea sticky.
我发现这才是这个想法真正具有粘性的原因。
What do you think of the view that books on happiness or the meaning of life, they’re a kind of placebo?
关于幸福或生命意义的书籍是一种安慰剂，您对此有何看法？
They don’t help directly, but you feel you’ve done something to become happier, and the placebo is somewhat effective.
它们并没有直接帮助，但你会觉得自己做了一些事情来变得更快乐，而且安慰剂有些效果。
I think that there’s probably something to that, although there’s some pretty interesting new research that shows that the placebo effect is actually not real.
我认为这可能是有道理的，尽管有一些非常有趣的新研究表明安慰剂效应实际上并不真实。
Have you seen some of that new research?
您看过一些新研究吗？
Yes, but I don’t believe it.
是的，但我不相信。
Nocebos also seem to work in many situations.
Nocebos 似乎在很多情况下都有效。
I know.
我知道。
I take your broader point.
我同意你更广泛的观点。
I take your broader point.
我同意你更广泛的观点。
I think that the reason for that is that when people read most of the self-improvement literature, not just happiness literature, what happens is that they get a flush of epiphany, a new way of thinking.
我认为原因在于，当人们阅读大部分自我提升文学而不仅仅是幸福文学时，他们会顿悟，一种新的思维方式。
That feels really good.
那种感觉真的很好。
That feels really inspirational.
那种感觉真的很励志。
The problem is it doesn’t take root.
问题是它没有扎根。
It’s like the seeds that are thrown on a path in the biblical parable.
就像圣经寓言中撒在路上的种子一样。
They don’t go through the algorithm that I just talked about, and so not all of these things can be compared.
他们没有经过我刚才谈到的算法，因此并非所有这些事情都可以进行比较。
I would not have gotten into this line of research and this line of teaching if I thought that it was just going to add another book to a long line of self-improvement books that make people feel good but don’t ultimately change their lives.
如果我认为这只是在一长串让人们感觉良好但最终不会改变他们的生活的自我完善书籍中添加另一本书，我就不会进入这一领域的研究和教学。
Say a person reads a new and different book on happiness once a year at the beginning of the year.
假设一个人每年年初读一本关于幸福的新的、不同的书。
Now, under the placebo view, that’s a fine thing to do.
现在，从安慰剂的角度来看，这是一件好事。
It’ll get you a bit happier each year.
每年它都会让你更快乐一点。
Under your view, it seems there’s something wrong.
在你看来，似乎有些不对劲。
Isn’t the placebo view doing a bit better there?
安慰剂的观点是不是效果更好一些？
You should read a book on happiness every year, a different one.
你应该每年读一本关于幸福的书，一本不同的书。
It’ll revitalize you a bit.
它会让你恢复一点活力。
Whether or not it’s new only matters a little.
它是否新只重要一点。
Yes.
是的。
It might remind you of some things that you knew to be the truth that you had fallen away from.
它可能会让你想起一些你知道是你已经背离的真理的事情。
One of the things that I like to do is I like to read a good book by one of the church fathers, for example.
例如，我喜欢做的一件事是我喜欢读一本教父写的好书。
They’re more or less saying the same thing.
他们或多或少都在说同样的话。
It reminds me of something that I learned as a boy and that I’ve forgotten as an adult.
它让我想起了一些我小时候学到的东西，而我成年后却忘记了。
It might actually remind me to come back to many of these practices and many of these views.
它实际上可能会提醒我回到许多这样的实践和许多这样的观点。
I think that there are real insights.
我认为有真正的见解。
There’s real value that can come from science-based knowledge about how to live a better life.
关于如何过上更好生活的科学知识具有真正的价值。
I think that you and I are both dedicated to science in the public interest and also science in the private interest as well.
我认为你和我都致力于公共利益的科学，也致力于私人利益的科学。
I think there is some good to be gotten through many of these ideas.
我认为通过其中许多想法可以得到一些好处。
Not all.
不是全部。
Once again, not all happiness literature is created equal.
再说一次，并非所有的幸福文学都是平等的。
On the habits of the happiest people
关于最幸福的人的习惯
What’s the best observational predictor of which people give the best happiness advice, or meaning of life advice, for that matter?
就此而言，人们给出最好的幸福建议或人生意义建议的最佳观察预测因素是什么？
Give me an example so I understand your question.
给我一个例子，以便我理解你的问题。
Someone might say if someone’s a rabbi, they’ll give you very good happiness advice.
有人可能会说，如果某人是拉比，他们会给你很好的幸福建议。
It may or may not be true, but it’s a claim you could then pursue—if someone is old, if someone has a PhD, and so on.
这可能是真的，也可能不是真的，但这是一个你可以追求的主张——如果某人年老，如果某人拥有博士学位，等等。
Who gives the best happiness advice in general?
一般来说，谁给出最好的幸福建议？
Oh, yes.
哦是的。
I understand what you’re saying.
我明白你在说什么。
You pretty much hit it on the head.
你几乎击中了它的头。
The habits of the happiest people—I teach at a business school.
最幸福的人的习惯——我在一所商学院任教。
One of the things we like to do with case studies is end the case study by saying, “What do the most successful CEOs do every day?
我们喜欢在案例研究中做的一件事是在案例研究结束时说：“最成功的首席执行官每天都做什么？
What do the most failing CEOs fail to do every day?
最失败的首席执行官每天都做不到什么？
What are the bad practices that they have?” What are the happiest people, which is to say the people who are most abundant in their self-evaluation or a third-person evaluation of enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning, what do they do every day?
他们有哪些不良做法？”什么是最幸福的人，也就是说，自我评价或第三人称评价最丰富、享受、满足和意义最丰富的人，他们每天都做什么？
The answer is they pay attention fundamentally to four big things.
答案是他们从根本上关注四件大事。
Their faith or life philosophy.
他们的信仰或人生哲学。
They think deeply about the why questions.
他们深入思考“为什么”的问题。
Also, they stand in awe of something bigger than themselves, so they’re not stuck looking in the mirror.
此外，他们对比自己更大的事物感到敬畏，所以他们不会被困在镜子里。
They have strong family relationships.
他们有牢固的家庭关系。
They have close friendships.
他们有着亲密的友谊。
They have real friends, not just deal friends.
他们有真正的朋友，而不仅仅是交易朋友。
They’re certainly not isolated and lonely and spending all day on the internet.
他们当然不是孤立无援、整天上网的。
Last but not least, they’re doing something productive where they feel like they’re earning their success through their merit and hard work, and they’re serving other people.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，他们正在做一些富有成效的事情，他们觉得自己是通过自己的优点和辛勤工作赢得了成功，并且他们正在为他人服务。
That’s what it comes down to.
归根结底就是这样。
Only the fourth of those applies to Elon Musk, and he’s our most successful CEO ever?
其中只有第四个适用于埃隆·马斯克，而他是我们有史以来最成功的首席执行官？
Yes.
是的。
I think that you’re doing something where you’re serving others and earning your success every day, Tyler, and I believe I am as well.
我认为你每天所做的事情都是为他人服务并赢得成功，泰勒，我相信我也是如此。
I believe that my postman is, and I believe that my plumber is.
我相信我的邮递员是，我相信我的水管工是。
That’s really important.
这真的很重要。
By the way, this is one of the reasons I’m such an enthusiast for the free enterprise system, because it allows us to find the places where our skills and our talents can actually find each other.
顺便说一句，这就是我如此热衷于自由企业制度的原因之一，因为它使我们能够找到我们的技能和才能真正能够相互发挥的地方。
It’s the ultimate ikigai way of organizing an economy.
这是组织经济的终极 ikigai 方式。
On why the young reject happiness advice
为什么年轻人拒绝幸福建议
What’s the deepest theory you have as to why younger people so often reject happiness advice, even when it comes from happy people?
对于为什么年轻人经常拒绝幸福建议，即使这些建议来自快乐的人，你最深刻的理论是什么？
Yes.
是的。
One of the reasons is because it’s inconvenient.
原因之一就是因为不方便。
It’s one of the same reasons that people will not take all kinds of good advice.
这也是人们不接受各种好建议的原因之一。
It’s funny.
这很有趣。
Alcoholics, they’re the only group of people where you can say, “Hey, there’s door number one and door number two.
酗酒者是唯一一群你可以说：“嘿，有一号门和二号门。
Behind door number one, there’s prison, there’s death, there is institutionalization.
在第一扇门的后面，有监狱，有死亡，有收容所。
Door number two is freedom and happiness and good relationships.”
第二扇门是自由、幸福和良好的关系。”
An alcoholic will say, “I got to get back to you on that.” The reason is because they’re living in a particular way, and they’re path dependent, and they might be addicted, and they don’t have very much experience.
酗酒者会说：“我必须回复你这件事。”原因是因为他们以一种特定的方式生活，他们有路径依赖，他们可能会上瘾，而且他们没有太多的经验。
It’s not just young people.
不仅仅是年轻人。
It’s all kinds of people who they reject what is manifestly good advice all the time because good advice is often incredibly inconvenient.
各种各样的人总是拒绝明显的好建议，因为好建议往往非常不方便。
It’s a discount rate issue?
是折扣率问题吗？
Could be a discount rate issue.
可能是折扣率问题。
It could be a rationality issue.
这可能是一个理性问题。
It could be an addiction issue, which might be rational, it might not, depending on your views on Gary Becker, et cetera.
这可能是一个成瘾问题，可能是理性的，也可能不是，这取决于你对加里·贝克尔等人的看法。
The truth of the matter is there’s all kinds of friction in the model that we have in the way that we take or don’t take advice.
事实是，在我们接受或不接受建议的方式中，模型中存在各种各样的摩擦。
There’s plenty of young people who are not addicts in major ways, and it seems they still don’t listen very carefully.
有很多年轻人在很大程度上并没有上瘾，而且他们似乎仍然没有很仔细地倾听。
They would just be happier.
他们只会更幸福。
I don’t think it takes four years of sacrifice to be happier, given some of the other things you say, and they still don’t do it.
考虑到你所说的其他一些事情，我认为不需要四年的牺牲才能变得更快乐，但他们仍然没有这样做。
What’s your deepest account of why they don’t do it?
对于他们不这样做的最深层原因是什么？
Yes.
是的。
Part of it is that I think that people are quite resistant to take advice from the people who are most likely to give it to them.
部分原因是我认为人们非常抵制接受最有可能向他们提供建议的人的建议。
That’s the credibility of the source and the relationship to the source.
这就是消息来源的可信度以及与消息来源的关系。
People ask me all the time, Tyler, “How do I get my teenage kids to take your advice on device use?” Which is classically one of the best ways that you can help teenagers to live happier, better lives, to be less lonely, to be less depressed, to be less anxious.
人们总是问我，泰勒，“我如何让我十几岁的孩子接受你关于设备使用的建议？”这通常是帮助青少年过上更快乐、更美好的生活、减少孤独、减少抑郁、减少焦虑的最佳方式之一。
They’re not going to throw their phones into the ocean, but at least to have serious protocols around their device use where they have more time in person and outside, and all the stuff that Jon Haidt talks about, but we’ve all talked about where the data, I think, are manifestly clear.
他们不会把手机扔进海里，但至少要在设备使用方面制定严格的协议，让他们有更多的时间在现场和在外面，以及乔恩·海特谈论的所有内容，但我认为，我们都讨论过数据明显清晰的地方。
They say they’re not going to listen to me on this.
他们说他们不会在这件事上听我的。
This is one of the ways that I recommend to parents that they have to do two things so that teenagers are more likely to take their advice.
这是我向父母建议的方法之一，他们必须做两件事，以便青少年更有可能接受他们的建议。
Number one is you got to model the behavior, not talk about it.
第一是你必须模仿行为，而不是谈论它。
You and I are both dads.
你和我都是爸爸。
You and I have both raised kids.
你和我都有孩子。
What do you do?
你做什么工作？
What should you tell them?
你应该告诉他们什么？
The answer is it doesn’t matter.
答案是没关系。
What matters is what they see you doing.
重要的是他们看到你在做什么。
The number one predictor of your kids using their phones around the dinner table is you using your phone around the dinner table.
您的孩子在餐桌上使用手机的第一个预测因素是您在餐桌上使用手机。
The second is that appealing to an outside authority is sometimes really useful.
第二，诉诸外部权威有时确实有用。
One of the reasons I write my books is because I want people to recommend them to people that they love and to say, “I just read this book by some nerd at Harvard named Arthur.
我写书的原因之一是因为我希望人们将它们推荐给他们所爱的人，并说：“我刚刚读了哈佛某个名叫阿瑟的书呆子写的这本书。
What a nerdy name.
多么书呆子的名字啊。
I thought it was maybe interesting, but I’m not sure.
我认为这可能很有趣，但我不确定。
Would you read it and tell me what you think?” and have it become a matter of family discussion.
你能读一下并告诉我你的想法吗？”并让它成为家庭讨论的问题。
That becomes a better way to do it as well, as opposed to wagging your finger at your kid and saying, “Do this thing.” I think that’s generally pretty ineffective.
这也成为一种更好的方法，而不是对你的孩子摇动手指并说“做这件事”。我认为这通常是非常无效的。
On curiosity's role in happiness
好奇心在幸福中的作用
Where does curiosity fit into your framework?
好奇心在你的框架中处于什么位置？
Say it’s late at night, a basketball game just finished, and I decide to go to ESPN to check the score.
假设现在是深夜，一场篮球比赛刚刚结束，我决定去 ESPN 查看比分。
I’m pretty sure it doesn’t make me happier.
我很确定这不会让我更快乐。
There’s even something zero-sum about it.
甚至还有一些零和的东西。
Your team might lose.
你的球队可能会输。
It’s unlikely it adds to the meaning of my life, but I can say I just want to know.
它不太可能增加我生活的意义，但我可以说我只是想知道。
Is that something you should want to talk me out of?
你应该劝我不要这么做吗？
No, no.
不，不。
Is just wanting to do things a sufficient reason to turn away from these goals of happiness and meaning of life?
仅仅想做一些事情就足以成为放弃这些幸福和生命意义目标的理由吗？
If it is, can’t we multiply that example many times and get people pretty far away from happiness and meaning of life?
如果是这样，我们难道不能多次重复这个例子，让人们远离幸福和生命的意义吗？
Maybe that’s why the young people don’t listen so much.
也许这就是为什么年轻人不太听话的原因。
I think that the reason that curiosity is important, because curiosity is ultimately a basic—I should say interest is a basic positive emotion that leads to happiness.
我认为好奇心之所以重要，是因为好奇心最终是一种基本的——我应该说兴趣是一种导致幸福的基本积极情绪。
It also leads to longer, better lives.
它还可以带来更长、更好的生活。
There’s two streams of research that support this.
有两个研究流支持这一点。
The first is the work on the science of emotion, including the neuroscience of emotion.
第一个是情感科学的工作，包括情感的神经科学。
Now, this is not the area that I was trained in.
现在，这不是我接受培训的领域。
I was trained as a traditional behavioral economist, social scientist.
我接受的是传统行为经济学家、社会科学家的培训。
When I came back to academia seven years ago, I really substantially had to retrain in neuroscience because this is the direction that the fields are going.
七年前，当我回到学术界时，我确实不得不重新接受神经科学方面的培训，因为这是该领域的发展方向。
The interesting work on curiosity and interest is it’s one of the seven basic emotions, and it’s a positive emotion at that.
关于好奇心和兴趣的有趣工作是它是七种基本情绪之一，而且是一种积极的情绪。
Human beings in the late Pleistocene, 250,000 years ago, when the modern brain was more or less what it is today, the members of the species Homo sapiens living in bands of 30 to 50 kin-based hierarchical individuals, the ones that had the most kids were the ones who learned the most.
人类生活在 25 万年前的更新世晚期，当时的现代大脑或多或少与今天的大脑差不多，智人的成员生活在 30 到 50 个以亲属为基础的等级个体中，那些拥有最多孩子的人就是那些学得最多的人。
The result of it is that there was a lot of positivity, there was a lot of cognitive and emotional reward that came from learning new things.
其结果是，学习新事物带来了很多积极性，带来了很多认知和情感奖励。
How does that reach us today?
今天它是如何影响到我们的？
You want to know the score.
你想知道分数。
You want to learn a new thing.
你想学习新事物。
You want to learn a new skill.
你想学习一项新技能。
You love that.
你喜欢那个。
That’s part of an important life.
这是重要生活的一部分。
Now, the second part of the research that reinforces this is the research from the Harvard Study of Adult Development that my colleagues have been conducting for 85 years up at Harvard that has been following the same cohort of people since the late 1930s.
现在，强化这一点的研究的第二部分是哈佛成人发展研究，我的同事们在哈佛大学进行了 85 年，自 1930 年代末以来一直在跟踪同一群人。
The original cohort had JFK in it and Ben Bradlee, and the Boston Strangler, and a bunch of people that didn’t make it through to the end of the study.
最初的队列中有肯尼迪、本·布拉德利、波士顿绞杀者，还有一群没有坚持到研究结束的人。
The people who are still alive, one of the things that they all have in common is that they’re lifelong learners and they love to learn.
对于还活着的人来说，他们的共同点之一就是他们都是终身学习者并且热爱学习。
This is a strategy.
这是一个策略。
Curiosity is not an idle thing.
好奇心并不是一件闲事。
It might kill the cat under the wrong circumstances.
在错误的情况下它可能会杀死猫。
We even in the Catholic faith, we have a word for idle curiosity or for the curiosity that hurts your soul, it’s called concupiscence.
即使在天主教信仰中，我们也有一个词来形容无谓的好奇心或伤害你灵魂的好奇心，这就是色欲。
Have you ever heard that word, Tyler?
你听说过这个词吗，泰勒？
Sure.
当然。
Concupiscence is not what I’m talking about, but the desire to learn something.
我所说的不是贪欲，而是对学习的渴望。
That’s a natural human thing.
这是人类的自然现象。
That’s an evolved thing and it’s a good thing too.
这是一个进化的事情，也是一件好事。
On self-deception
关于自欺欺人
What’s the optimal degree of self-deception?
自欺欺人的最佳程度是多少？
That’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
How much should you actually be honest with yourself?
您实际上应该对自己诚实多少？
Of course, there’s the Kantian view where Immanuel Kant said 0 percent self-deception is the right amount.
当然，还有康德的观点，伊曼努尔·康德说 0% 的自欺欺人是正确的。
That’s almost certainly wrong.
这几乎肯定是错误的。
One of the things that I’m really interested in is this new field of applied philosophy.
我真正感兴趣的事情之一是应用哲学这个新领域。
Have you heard about this, where you study a philosopher, and you try to live according to their precepts strictly for one or two or three weeks at a time?
你听说过这个吗？你研究一位哲学家，并尝试一次严格按照他们的戒律生活一两周或三周？
It’s not possible, usually.
通常这是不可能的。
It’s pretty hard.
这很难。
I tried to live like a Kantian and tell exactly zero lies, and it’s a miracle that my marriage survived.
我试图像康德主义者一样生活，并且说谎为零，我的婚姻得以幸存真是一个奇迹。
That’s all I can say.
我只能说这么多。
I’m not a Kantian, it turns out.
事实证明，我不是康德主义者。
The truth is that the ultimate Kantian idea of pure honesty is to not lie to yourself.
事实是，康德的纯粹诚实的终极理念是不要对自己撒谎。
The truth is that there’s a lot of self-protection that goes into it.
事实上，这其中有很多自我保护的成分。
Of course, a little of that can go a long way.
当然，其中的一点点可以起到很大的作用。
The whole idea of convincing yourself of something that’s fundamentally untrue is harmful.
让自己相信一些根本不真实的事情的整个想法是有害的。
The best way to live, I think, to find the right balance of this came about from the teachings of William James, who really is the first social psychologist, the father of modern psychology.
我认为，找到这两者之间正确平衡的最佳生活方式来自威廉·詹姆斯的教诲，他确实是第一位社会心理学家，现代心理学之父。
He wrote The Principles of Psychology, and he separated the psyche into the I-self and to the me-self.
他写了《心理学原理》，并将心灵分为“我-我”和“我-我”。
The me-self looks in the mirror, the I-self looks outward, and we have to do both.
自我照镜子，自我向外看，我们必须两者都做。
The essence of consciousness is this ability to be two people and know that we are two people.
意识的本质是成为两个人并知道我们是两个人的能力。
This is why Homo sapiens, with their abundant prefrontal cortex—30 percent of your brain by weight—are so dominant as a species is that we can be two people in this particular way.
这就是为什么智人拥有丰富的前额皮质（占大脑重量的 30%）作为一个物种如此占主导地位，以至于我们可以以这种特殊的方式成为两个人。
He says you have to get the balance right if you want to live a good life.
他说，如果你想过上美好的生活，就必须取得正确的平衡。
Most of that is not even bothering to deceive yourself because you spend more time looking outward and understanding the world as opposed to thinking about yourself in the first place.
其中大部分甚至都懒得欺骗自己，因为你花更多的时间向外看和了解世界，而不是首先考虑自己。
On facing death
面对死亡时
In the Soviet Union, it was sometimes the case if people had terminal diseases, they wouldn’t tell them until they had to.
在苏联，有时如果人们患有绝症，他们不会告诉他们，除非有必要。
What do you think of that?
你对此有何看法？
I don’t think much of that as a matter of fact.
事实上，我对此并不太重视。
Part of the reason for that is that the question is not whether or not you’re going to be in the optimal state of positive affect.
部分原因是问题不在于你是否会处于积极影响的最佳状态。
The reason for that is because a life well lived truly of meaning is one that actually faces one of the most meaningful aspects of life itself.
原因是，真正有意义的美好生活实际上是生活本身最有意义的方面之一。
It’s a difficult thing to talk and write about, as a matter of fact, which is suffering.
事实上，这是一件很难谈论和书写的事情，这是一种痛苦。
Now, you know the work of Richard Davidson at UW-Madison.
现在，您知道理查德·戴维森在威斯康辛大学麦迪逊分校的工作。
He does work on where happiness and unhappiness are processed in the brain.
他确实致力于研究大脑中处理快乐和不快乐的地方。
What he’s found is that unhappiness is largely a right-hemispheric phenomenon.
他发现，不快乐很大程度上是一种右半球现象。
He does this by looking at the musculature of the face when people are having happy and sad emotions.
他通过观察人们有快乐和悲伤情绪时面部的肌肉组织来做到这一点。
This is not a coincidence because the work of the Iain McGilchrist, whose work I know you know really well on hemispheric lateralization, says that meaning is a right hemispheric experience as well.
这并非巧合，因为伊恩·麦吉尔克里斯特 (Iain McGilchrist) 的研究表明，意义也是一种右半球体验，我知道你对他的半球偏侧化研究非常了解。
It’s no coincidence, therefore, that suffering in life leads to an understanding of life’s meaning and that deepens life’s sense of richness.
因此，生活中的苦难让人理解生活的意义，加深生活的丰富感，这并非巧合。
Now, a little suffering can go a long way, but that’s one of the reasons that when you work with the Tibetan Buddhists—which is a big area of my work over the past 12 years, has been with the Dalai Lama’s community among the Tibetan Buddhists in Dharamsala—they talk about this idea that suffering is an important part of life, and that the key to understanding suffering is by understanding the formula that it equals pain multiplied by the resistance to the pain.
现在，一点点的痛苦可以发挥很大的作用，但这就是当你与藏传佛教徒一起工作时——这是我过去12年工作的一个重要领域，一直与达兰萨拉的藏传佛教徒中的达赖喇嘛社区一起工作的原因之一——他们谈论这样的观点，即痛苦是生命的重要组成部分，理解痛苦的关键是理解痛苦等于痛苦乘以对痛苦的抵抗力的公式。
The result is that lying to yourself to lower the pain is usually not the optimal approach to the best life, but rather understanding how nonresistance to the pain can lead to plenty high pain, but suffering that’s manageable.
结果是，通过对自己撒谎来减轻疼痛通常不是获得最佳生活的最佳方法，而是要了解不抵抗疼痛会导致大量的剧烈疼痛，但这种痛苦是可以控制的。
Why not cram all that contemplation of death into your last three months rather than your last 18 months?
为什么不把所有对死亡的思考塞进你的最后三个月而不是最后 18 个月呢？
Do intertemporal substitution, right?
做跨期替代吧？
Accelerate it.
加速它。
Ben Sasse probably is facing a pretty short timeline, but he’s done a remarkable job, even publicly, of coming to terms with what’s happening.
本·萨斯面临的时间可能相当短，但他在接受正在发生的事情方面做得非常出色，甚至在公开场合也是如此。
Isn’t that better than two years of the same?
这不是比两年一成不变更好吗？
That’s an empirical question, actually, at the end of the day.
实际上，归根结底，这是一个经验问题。
That’s the kind of thing that you and I could gather data on, and some people, in point of fact, have.
这就是你我可以收集数据的事情，事实上，有些人已经有了。
We all remember Elisabeth Kübler-Ross’s stages of death and dying, the stages of grief.
我们都记得伊丽莎白·库伯勒-罗斯的死亡和临终阶段，以及悲伤的阶段。
She had a comprehensive study in the 1960s and 1970s and wrote a fabulously bestselling book that has not stood up extremely well to the subsequent research, but it’s a great book nonetheless and is worth reading.
她在 20 世纪 60 年代和 1970 年代进行了全面的研究，并写了一本非常畅销的书，虽然并没有经受住随后的研究的考验，但它仍然是一本很棒的书，值得一读。
She was a Swiss physician, psychiatrist.
她是一位瑞士医生、精神病学家。
She talked about the stages of grief that people go through.
她谈到了人们经历悲伤的各个阶段。
There’s a lot of misery that when people find out they’re going to die.
当人们发现自己即将死去时，会有很多痛苦。
They’re bargaining and they’re angry and they’re in denial.
他们在讨价还价，他们愤怒，他们否认。
Then they get to the last stage, which is acceptance.
然后他们进入最后一个阶段，即接受。
Now, a lot of research since then has said, okay, how long is each stage and what do people actually experience in each stage?
现在，自那时以来的很多研究都说，好吧，每个阶段有多长，人们在每个阶段实际上经历了什么？
To cut to the chase, here’s what the research basically says.
切入正题，以下是研究的基本内容。
People get to acceptance pretty fast, and they’re happier during the acceptance phase than they were before they were told they were going to die.
人们很快就会接受现实，而且在接受阶段他们比被告知自己即将死去之前更快乐。
Now, this is important, right?
现在，这很重要，对吧？
This is an important thing because what that says is—if you’re taking it at its face, and again, the research is the research, and it could be updated, and everything’s contested—what this suggests is that if you’re doing it right, the more time you have, the more meaningful your life is going to be, and the more you’ll actually savor it.
这是一件重要的事情，因为它所说的是——如果你从表面上看，研究就是研究，它可以更新，一切都是有争议的——这表明，如果你做得对，你拥有的时间越多，你的生活就会越有意义，你也会越真正地享受它。
The truth is, Tyler, I would prefer to have 18 months of advance notice as opposed to three, and here’s what I really want, somewhere between five and 20 years, which is what I actually have.
事实上，泰勒，我更愿意提前 18 个月通知，而不是 3 个月，这就是我真正想要的，大约 5 到 20 年之间，这就是我实际拥有的。
On choosing a religion
关于选择宗教
Speaking of Buddhism, why is the footprint of Buddhism shrinking around the world?
说到佛教，为什么佛教的足迹在世界范围内不断缩小呢？
There’s fewer Buddhists every year.
佛教徒一年比一年少。
It’s a good question, except that there’s fewer of most serious practitioners of almost every substantial faith.
这是一个很好的问题，只不过几乎所有信仰的最认真的实践者都较少。
It’s quite a sharp decline, right?
这是一个相当急剧的下降，对吧？
Especially Korea, Japan, China.
尤其是韩国、日本、中国。
Yes.
是的。
No. I think that probably we Catholics are giving the Buddhists a run for their money.
不，我认为我们天主教徒可能正在与佛教徒争夺金钱。
According to Pew this year, for every 100 people who enter the Catholic Church, 840 left.
根据皮尤研究中心今年的数据，每 100 人进入天主教会，就有 840 人离开。
That’s a pretty sharp decline.
这是一个相当急剧的下降。
I think this has a lot to do with the general urbanization, technologization, and the secularization of especially younger cohorts today.
我认为这与当今普遍的城市化、技术化以及特别是年轻群体的世俗化有很大关系。
If I were a Buddhist leader, if I were a religious leader, as opposed to just a religious person, I’d be thinking about the opportunity for religious revival, and I think, quite frankly, we’re due for one.
如果我是一名佛教领袖，如果我是一名宗教领袖，而不仅仅是一名宗教人士，我就会考虑宗教复兴的机会，坦率地说，我认为我们应该有一个复兴的机会。
Why, for you, Catholicism rather than Orthodox Christianity?
对你来说，为什么选择天主教而不是东正教？
Yes.
是的。
It’s a good question, except that there’s some practical reasons for that.
这是一个很好的问题，只是有一些实际原因。
I did convert.
我确实转换了。
I started when I was 15 after having a mystical experience at the shrine of Guadalupe in Mexico.
15 岁时，我在墨西哥瓜达卢佩神社经历了一次神秘的经历后开始了创作。
I went through the conversion.
我经历了转换。
I was an evangelical Protestant at the time.
当时我是一名福音派新教徒。
I came from a very religious family.
我来自一个非常虔诚的宗教家庭。
Probably religion is not a foregone conclusion, but near to.
也许宗教还不是已成定局，但已接近尾声。
Then I don’t feel like I chose Catholicism; I feel like it chose me.
然后我不觉得我选择了天主教；我选择了天主教。我感觉它选择了我。
Now, there’s a practical consideration as well, which is the Catholic Church is like Starbucks.
现在，还有一个实际的考虑，那就是天主教堂就像星巴克。
It’s ubiquitous and has a uniform, high-quality product.
它无处不在，并且拥有统一、高质量的产品。
There's an Orthodox Christian church in every major American city.
美国每个主要城市都有东正教教堂。
There’s multiple of them, right?
有多个，对吧？
No, that’s true.
不，确实如此。
Quite popular with younger men.
很受年轻男性欢迎。
If younger men need role models, you would be the perfect role model.
如果年轻人需要榜样，那么您将是完美的榜样。
Just intellectually, ideologically, is there some preference for Catholicism?
只是在理智上、意识形态上，是否对天主教有某种偏好？
My brother is actually Orthodox, and my brother’s a very rigorous Orthodox as well.
我哥哥实际上是东正教徒，而且我哥哥也是一个非常严格的东正教徒。
I admire it a lot.
我非常佩服。
I admire the Orthodox a great deal.
我非常钦佩东正教。
For me, the Catholic Church is something that is part of religion as heartbeat, as diet, as exercise, as ubiquitous as getting up and putting on my shirt.
对我来说，天主教会是宗教的一部分，就像心跳、饮食、锻炼一样，就像起床和穿上衬衫一样无处不在。
The great thing about being part of the universal Catholic Church is literally its ubiquitousness.
成为普世天主教会的一部分的伟大之处在于它的无处不在。
The fact I go to mass every single morning, and I travel 48 weeks a year, and the fact is there’s one every place is what it comes down to.
我每天早上都会去参加弥撒，一年要旅行 48 周，而且每个地方都有一个弥撒，这就是事实。
Now, that said, I don’t think I’m better than everybody else, but I do want it to be part of the rhythm of my life in this particular way.
现在，我不认为我比其他人都好，但我确实希望它以这种特殊的方式成为我生活节奏的一部分。
I’ve come to love the Catholic Church as much as any institution in my life.
我开始热爱天主教堂，就像热爱我生命中的任何机构一样。
I once suggested to Peter Thiel that he should be Catholic, and his response was something like, “The popes are too left-wing.” What do you think?
我曾经向彼得·蒂尔建议他应该成为天主教徒，他的回答是这样的：“教皇太左翼了。”你怎么认为？
Why are they so left-wing?
为什么他们这么左翼？
Yes.
是的。
Well, the truth is that everybody’s too much something for me.
好吧，事实是每个人对我来说都太重要了。
Whatever it happens to be, the Catholic Church, here’s evidence of its unerring truth.
无论天主教会是什么，这里都有证据证明其无误的真理。
It’s still around despite all the people in it, despite all the laity, and despite all the clergy, and despite all the hierarchy in the Catholic Church.
尽管里面有很多人，尽管有所有平信徒，尽管有所有神职人员，尽管天主教会有所有等级制度，但它仍然存在。
Popes aren’t perfect, and I certainly don’t agree with them on all sorts of things.
教皇并不完美，我当然不同意他们在很多事情上的观点。
The truth is, I would never find that in any institution that I love or any institution that I follow.
事实是，我永远不会在我喜欢的任何机构或我遵循的任何机构中找到这一点。
I’ve got to live in the world.
我必须活在这个世界上。
On immigration
关于移民
In politics today, how have your views on immigration evolved over, say, the last 10 years?
在当今的政治领域，您对移民的看法在过去十年中发生了怎样的演变？
Many people on the right have become much more anti-immigration, especially for Western Europe.
许多右翼人士变得更加反移民，尤其是西欧。
Have you changed at all?
你完全改变了吗？
I have not.
我没有。
I’m not trying to say that I’m right.
我并不是想说我是对的。
I’m not trying to say that I’m never mistaken or that I don’t change my views on that, but I’m just unalterably pro-immigration.
我并不是想说我从来没有犯过错，或者我不会改变我对此的看法，但我只是坚定不移地支持移民。
I always have been.
我一直都是。
I think it’s the vitality of American life is the fact that there are people who are Americans by choice as opposed to just by birth.
我认为美国生活的活力在于，有些人是通过选择而不是出生而成为美国人。
I also believe strongly in the whole idea of the hypomanic edge from John Gardner’s research that suggests that there’s a genetic mutation that’s manifest in the ultimate entrepreneurial act, which is immigration itself.
我也坚信约翰·加德纳研究中的轻躁狂边缘的整个想法，该研究表明，最终的创业行为，即移民本身，存在一种明显的基因突变。
Now, that said, that doesn’t mean that I think we should have open borders or radical policies where there is no control on immigration for anybody at any time, but I’m pro-immigration because I’m pro-America, quite frankly.
话虽如此，这并不意味着我认为我们应该拥有开放的边界或激进的政策，在任何时候都无法控制任何人的移民，但坦率地说，我支持移民，因为我支持美国。
Now, I’m a biased suspect.
现在，我是一个有偏见的嫌疑人。
I have to plead guilty to the fact that David Brooks one time told me, he said, “You’re so pro-immigrant, you marry them,” because my wife’s an immigrant.
我必须承认大卫·布鲁克斯有一次告诉我的事实，他说，“你是如此支持移民，你嫁给他们，”因为我的妻子是移民。
Her, right?
她，对吗？
Not them.
不是他们。
Yes.
是的。
I’m also a foreign adoptive father.
我也是一名外国养父。
The truth of the matter is that if you look at my family, it looks like you plucked 11 random individuals out of the population around the world and put them in one house.
事情的真相是，如果你看看我的家人，你会发现你从世界各地的人口中随机抽取了 11 个人，并将他们放在一所房子里。
Say you look at Northern England, some parts of which are pretty intensely Islamic.
假设你看看英格兰北部，其中一些地区伊斯兰信仰非常浓厚。
Has it gone as well?
也过去了吗？
Have you updated your views?
你有更新你的看法吗？
No. I think that there’s a difference in the ability of different populations to assimilate and different cultures in their willingness and ability to assimilate new people.
不，我认为不同人群的同化能力存在差异，不同文化的同化意愿和能力也存在差异。
I think we need proper public policies that help people to assimilate and insist that they do so.
我认为我们需要适当的公共政策来帮助人们同化并坚持他们这样做。
There’s been greater, lesser degrees of success around the world.
世界各地的成功程度有大有小。
On the American right wing
在美国右翼
I think it’s fair to say what we call the right wing in America, it’s become much, much more Trumpy.
我认为可以公平地说，我们所说的美国右翼，它已经变得更加特朗普化了。
Does this shift you to the left or make you question what the right wing was to begin with, or do you just feel lost and confused, or do you say, that’s great, I’m more Trumpy, too?
这是否会让你转向左翼，或者让你质疑右翼的初衷是什么，或者你只是感到失落和困惑，还是你会说，这很好，我也更特朗普？
How have you dealt with that emotionally and intellectually?
你在情感上和理智上是如何处理这个问题的？
Yes.
是的。
I’ll answer, but you’re going to have to answer after me, will you?
我会回答，但你必须在我之后回答，可以吗？
Sure.
当然。
Part of it is because sometimes when I don’t know what I think, I just read your blog.
部分原因是有时当我不知道自己在想什么时，我只是读你的博客。
The truth is that it’s been a disconcerting time.
事实是，这是一段令人不安的时期。
As my Spanish wife one time pointed out, who is an American citizen and deeply loves this country, American society is largely driven by cultural fads and moral panics.
正如我的西班牙妻子（她是一名美国公民，深爱这个国家）曾经指出的那样，美国社会在很大程度上是由文化时尚和道德恐慌驱动的。
The problem with that is that it obscures our attention to gradual cultural decline.
问题在于它掩盖了我们对文化逐渐衰落的关注。
That’s her view.
这是她的观点。
I have to say that I find that view very compelling.
我不得不说，我发现这个观点非常引人注目。
We have all kinds of cultural and political fads and all kinds of moral panics.
我们有各种各样的文化和政治时尚以及各种各样的道德恐慌。
Cultural fads are the things that we’re all doing, and we don’t quite know why, but other smart people are doing them, so we do.
文化时尚是我们都在做的事情，我们不太清楚为什么，但其他聪明人也在做这些事情，所以我们也这样做。
Panics, grievance panics, are based on the idea that we should all be angry and afraid about something, even though we weren’t 10 minutes ago.
恐慌、不满的恐慌是基于这样一种观念：我们都应该对某事感到愤怒和害怕，即使我们不是在 10 分钟前。
You and I live on college campuses, so we can’t actually avoid this.
你和我都住在大学校园里，所以我们实际上无法避免这种情况。
Politics actually exists according to fads and panics as well.
政治实际上也是根据时尚和恐慌而存在的。
That means that if you think you know the Republican Party, you don’t, because it’s going to change.
这意味着，如果你认为你了解共和党，其实你并不了解，因为它将会改变。
The same thing is true for the Democratic Party.
对于民主党来说也是如此。
However, when you’re out of an equilibrium, that you should assume that the equilibrium at some point will return.
然而，当你脱离平衡时，你应该假设在某个时刻会恢复平衡。
If you liked it the old way, you should keep it the old way.
如果你喜欢旧的方式，你就应该保持旧的方式。
It’s like the old Obama promise.
这就像奥巴马的旧承诺。
If you like your insurance or you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.
如果您喜欢您的保险或您喜欢您的医生，您可以保留您的医生。
If you like your Republicanism, you should be able to keep your Republicanism.
如果你喜欢你的共和主义，你就应该能够保持你的共和主义。
Don’t worry about it if people actually don’t agree with you.
如果人们实际上不同意你的观点，请不要担心。
This is America, for Pete’s sake.
看在皮特的份上，这就是美国。
I don’t like the populism.
我不喜欢民粹主义。
I don’t think the populism is right.
我认为民粹主义是不对的。
I’m an old-school free enterprise guy.
我是一个老派的自由企业人士。
That’s what really animates me in this particular way.
这就是真正让我以这种特殊方式充满活力的原因。
I have very many traditional views that don’t seem to be in favor at this point.
我有很多传统观点，但目前看来并不受欢迎。
I also have a lot of confidence that this is the mainstream view, and it’s actually going to return.
我也非常有信心，这是主流观点，而且它实际上将会回归。
I have not just confidence, I have hope that actually I can do something to urge it along.
我不仅有信心，而且希望实际上我能做点什么来推动它前进。
Now you.
现在轮到你。
I would say it’s mostly unfortunate.
我想说这大多是不幸的。
I consider myself a classical liberal.
我认为自己是一个古典自由主义者。
I think there’s been negative emotional contagion from a number of very bad events, some of which were partly random.
我认为一些非常糟糕的事件会传染负面情绪，其中一些事件部分是随机的。
Say that 9/11 actually happened, that COVID came along when it did, and if a bunch of bad things happened, the Great Financial Crisis, that’s less random.
假设 9/11 事件确实发生了，新冠病毒在发生时就出现了，如果发生了一系列糟糕的事情，比如金融危机，那就不那么随机了。
People turn to worse ideas, and we’re suffering under that, and then it spreads, and then negative ideas lead to further negative ideas, and people become less happy, and that leads to worse policy, and we’re stuck in this rut.
人们转向更糟糕的想法，我们因此而受苦，然后它蔓延开来，然后消极的想法导致进一步的消极想法，人们变得不那么快乐，这导致更糟糕的政策，我们就陷入了这种困境。
Now I never expected classical liberalism or classical liberal Republicanism to be that dominant anyway.
我从来没想过古典自由主义或古典自由共和主义会如此占主导地位。
I’m not that surprised.
我并不感到惊讶。
I see it as a return to some features of, say, late 19th-century America that I feel never went away.
我认为这是对 19 世纪末美国某些特征的回归，我觉得这些特征从未消失。
I’ve never liked them, but I think it’s maybe what we really are.
我从来不喜欢他们，但我想这也许就是我们真正的样子。
There was this odd bubble.
出现了这个奇怪的泡沫。
You can debate when the years run, but something like 1980 through 2016, that seemed quite normal, but that was an illusion.
你可以争论年份的流逝，但像 1980 年到 2016 年这样的事情，看起来很正常，但那是一种幻觉。
Now we’re back to the real state of things.
现在我们回到了事情的真实状态。
Interesting.
有趣的。
Yes.
是的。
You’re saying, I think, that Trumpism is an equilibrium and Reaganism was a disequilibrium, and I’m saying the opposite.
我认为，你是说特朗普主义是一种均衡，里根主义是一种不均衡，而我的说法恰恰相反。
Exactly.
确切地。
On much of the rest, we agree, and in terms of what we want, I think we agree.
在其余的大部分方面，我们都同意，就我们想要的而言，我认为我们也同意。
I think that’s right.
我认为这是对的。
I guess we don’t have to figure out who’s right, we just have to wait.
我想我们不必弄清楚谁是对的，我们只需等待。
On AI's role in happiness
论人工智能在幸福中的作用
How will artificial intelligence influence politics and the political spectrum?
人工智能将如何影响政治和政治光谱？
Easy question, right?
简单的问题，对吧？
It’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
I agree.
我同意。
One of the questions I get mostly, as you can imagine, because of my work, is how is it going to affect happiness?
正如你可以想象的那样，由于我的工作，我最常遇到的问题之一是它会如何影响幸福？
I’ve been thinking about it an awful lot.
我想了很多。
We discussed a minute ago the hemispheric lateralization theory of Iain McGilchrist, that the right side of the brain is the mystery and meaning and why questions of life, and the left hemisphere of the brain largely adjudicates the what and how to and engineering and technological questions of life.
我们刚才讨论了伊恩·麦吉尔克里斯特的半球偏侧化理论，即右脑负责生命的神秘、意义和原因问题，而左脑主要裁决生命的“什么”、“如何”以及工程和技术问题。
The problem is that in modern society, we’ve been kicking everybody into the left hemisphere of the brain and walling off the right hemisphere because people spend all day on their screens, and the hustle and grind-engineered Silicon Valley culture that we live in has actually eliminated a lot of the mystery and meaning from life and the incentive to actually ask those questions.
问题是，在现代社会，我们一直把每个人都踢到大脑的左半球，而把右半球隔开，因为人们整天都在屏幕上度过，而我们所生活的喧嚣和刻苦设计的硅谷文化实际上消除了生活中的许多神秘感和意义，也消除了真正提出这些问题的动力。
That’s a lot of what my new book is about, is how to get back to the right side of your brain, as a matter of fact.
事实上，这就是我的新书的很多内容，就是如何回到你的右脑。
Now, AI is a magnificent extension of the left hemisphere of your brain.
现在，人工智能是你大脑左半球的巨大延伸。
It’s a how-to and what engine, but it’s not a why engine.
它是一个“如何做”和“什么”引擎，但不是一个“为什么”引擎。
Any real why question that matters, you can’t put into ChatGPT and get something meaningful to you to say, “Why am I alive?
任何真正重要的“为什么”问题，你都无法放入 ChatGPT 中并得到一些对你有意义的东西来说：“我为什么活着？
For what would I be willing to give my life?” You put that into ChatGPT, it’ll start by buttering you up and telling you what a smart question it is, and then it’ll tell you how five different people have answered that question, and you’re left completely unsatisfied as a result of that.
为了什么我愿意献出自己的生命？”你把它放入 ChatGPT 中，它首先会奉承你，告诉你这是一个多么聪明的问题，然后它会告诉你五个不同的人是如何回答这个问题的，结果你会完全不满意。
The answer to the basic happiness question, which is an adjunct, which is next to the political questions, I think, is that if you use it for left brain things to free up your time and then go over to the right brain side of your life with your love and your faith and your relationships and beauty and suffering, then your life’s going to get better.
我认为，基本的幸福问题是一个附属问题，紧随政治问题之后，它的答案是，如果你用它来处理左脑的事情，以释放你的时间，然后用你的爱、你的信仰、你的人际关系、美丽和痛苦转移到你生活的右脑，那么你的生活就会变得更好。
It’s a very real possibility, Tyler, that this is what’s going to happen in economics and politics today.
泰勒，这是当今经济和政治中将要发生的事情的可能性非常大。
If we went back 150 years or a little bit more, people would say, “Oh, the Industrial Revolution is going to permanently ruin society because it’s urbanizing and people don’t know each other and the traditional folkways are going away.” It had some rough transitions, to be sure, by bringing in market economics and division of labor and specialization, et cetera.
如果我们回到 150 年前或更早一点，人们会说，“哦，工业革命将永久地破坏社会，因为它正在城市化，人们彼此不认识，传统的民俗正在消失。”当然，通过引入市场经济、劳动分工和专业化等，它经历了一些艰难的转变。
The end of the day was a middle class and the weekend.
一天的结束是中产阶级和周末。
That’s not the fruit of labor unions.
这不是工会的成果。
That’s the fruit of the Industrial Revolution and the amazing largesse that it created through capitalism.
这是工业革命的成果，也是它通过资本主义创造的惊人慷慨。
That took a long time, right?
那花了很长时间，对吗？
This may be 70 years at the interim.
这中间可能是 70 年。
What’s our interim going to look like?
我们的过渡时期会是什么样子？
Will it be more nostalgia and more small-C conservatism?
会不会更怀旧、更小C保守？
Yes.
是的。
I think it will be.
我想会的。
I think this will be speeded up.
我认为这会加快。
I think within 20 years that we will have something like the post-industrial equivalent of the fruit that was wrought by the Industrial Revolution, that that’s what we’ll see from what’s going on today.
我认为在 20 年内，我们将拥有类似于工业革命所产生的后工业时代的成果，这就是我们从今天所发生的事情中看到的。
Do you think the classical liberal view on AI should be that we don’t much regulate it or that we regulate it like a national security object, the way we might regulate atomic bombs?
您认为对人工智能的经典自由主义观点应该是我们不对其进行太多监管，还是将其视为国家安全对象来监管，就像我们监管原子弹一样？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I’m wrestling with that, and I don’t know the answer.
我正在努力解决这个问题，但我不知道答案。
Can you give me your opinion, please?
请给我你的意见好吗？
Otherwise, I’m going to have to just go to your blog and look at it and form my own opinion on the basis of that.
否则，我将不得不去你的博客查看它并在此基础上形成我自己的观点。
I think for now, we don’t know how to regulate it, and it’s changing more quickly than Congress can act intelligently.
我认为目前我们不知道如何监管它，而且它的变化速度比国会能够明智地采取行动更快。
Maybe Congress cannot, at the moment, act intelligently at all.
也许国会目前根本无法明智地采取行动。
I’ll say hold off, but leave open the option because we might need to in some important ways.
我会说推迟，但保留这个选项，因为我们可能需要在某些重要方面这样做。
I think that’s a pragmatic view.
我认为这是一个务实的观点。
On what drives generosity
是什么推动了慷慨
Now, your 2007 book, Who Really Cares?, it had a data-backed thesis that was correct at the time, that political conservatives are more generous than political democrats or—liberals is not exactly the word.
现在，你 2007 年出版的书《谁真正在乎？》中有一个当时正确的、有数据支持的论点，即政治保守派比政治民主派更慷慨，或者说“自由主义者”这个词并不准确。
Left-wingers.
左翼分子。
Do you think that’s still true?
你认为这仍然是真的吗？
It is, although some of the distinction is disappearing.
确实如此，尽管一些区别正在消失。
Now, the reason for that is that if you run a regression analysis and you have how much people give on the left-hand side, on the right-hand side, a whole bunch of covariates that include political ideology and religious behavior and income and other demographics, what you will find is that the big coefficient that really matters and highly significant is religion, is religious activity.
现在，原因是，如果你进行回归分析，你会看到人们在左侧、右侧给出了多少，以及一大堆协变量，包括政治意识形态、宗教行为、收入和其他人口统计数据，你会发现真正重要且非常重要的系数是宗教，是宗教活动。
Those things, when you’re looking at a crosstab, that they tended and still do to a large extent, not as much as they did before, to be correlated between politics and religion.
当你查看交叉表时，这些事情在很大程度上倾向于并且仍然在很大程度上，而不是像以前那样，在政治和宗教之间相关。
The reason the conservatives gave more in 2006, 2007, 2008, et cetera, was because they tended to be more religious.
保守派之所以在 2006 年、2007 年、2008 年等年份捐赠更多，是因为他们往往更加虔诚。
That was the reason.
这就是原因。
That’s what it came down to.
这就是最终的结果。
They also were a little bit more community-oriented, but it’s largely because of religion.
他们也更注重社区，但这主要是因为宗教。
Now, to the extent that we have a whole wing of so-called conservatives that are getting more and more and more secular, you’re going to see less of that phenomenon.
现在，我们有一整群所谓的保守派，他们变得越来越世俗，你会看到越来越少的这种现象。
That’s what I actually think we’re probably seeing today.
我实际上认为这就是我们今天可能看到的情况。
Nonetheless, I would suspect—I haven’t rewritten that book, I haven’t rerun all those data because I’m doing something different at this point—I still think that we would see the correlation significant in the same direction.
尽管如此，我怀疑——我没有重写那本书，我没有重新运行所有这些数据，因为我此时正在做一些不同的事情——我仍然认为我们会在同一方向上看到显着的相关性。
On Oprah's political views
论奥普拉的政治观点
If we had to compare your political views to those of Oprah Winfrey, and you tried to boil down the difference to as small a number of dimensions as possible, what accounts for the difference?
如果我们必须将您的政治观点与奥普拉·温弗瑞的政治观点进行比较，并且您试图将差异归结为尽可能小的维度，那么是什么解释了差异？
You and she get on great, you respect each other, admire each other, you’ve worked together.
你和她相处得很好，你们互相尊重，互相钦佩，你们一起工作。
Why haven’t you converted her, or she converted you?
为什么你没有改变她，或者她改变你？
I think that we probably haven’t tried to convert each other because when we talk to each other, we’re talking about things that are more important to us, like our religious faith because of our desire to actually lift people up in these bonds of happiness and love.
我认为我们可能没有试图改变彼此，因为当我们互相交谈时，我们谈论的是对我们来说更重要的事情，比如我们的宗教信仰，因为我们渴望真正让人们在幸福和爱的纽带中得到提升。
We haven’t really talked very much about politics.
我们还没有真正谈论过政治。
It’s not because we’ve been avoiding it.
这并不是因为我们一直在回避它。
It’s the same thing when I talk to my older brother, whom I love.
当我和我所爱的哥哥交谈时，也是同样的情况。
We differ completely on politics because we were raised in Seattle, and he stayed.
我们在政治上完全不同，因为我们在西雅图长大，而他留下了。
I went to AEI, and we had different lives for sure, but we never really talk about politics because there are so many more important things than politics.
我去了 AEI，我们确实过着不同的生活，但我们从来没有真正谈论过政治，因为有很多比政治更重要的事情。
The reason that we haven’t converted each other is probably because we haven’t tried.
我们之所以没有互相转变，可能是因为我们没有尝试过。
What do we both care an awful lot about?
我们都非常关心什么？
We really do care about a just society and how to get it.
我们确实关心一个公正的社会以及如何实现它。
We probably differ in the extent to which government can instantiate that, can actually achieve that.
我们可能在政府能够在多大程度上实现这一目标、实际实现这一目标方面存在分歧。
I think we’re pretty close to each other on market economics, as a matter of fact.
事实上，我认为我们在市场经济方面非常接近。
She’s one of the greatest entrepreneurs of our time, as a matter of fact.
事实上，她是我们这个时代最伟大的企业家之一。
We both agree that the priority of our capitalist system should be to create equal opportunity.
我们都同意，我们的资本主义制度的首要任务应该是创造平等机会。
No, not just equal opportunity, the greatest opportunity possible for people at the margins of society.
不，不仅仅是机会平等，而是为社会边缘人群提供的最大机会。
Now she probably has more faith than me in the ability of government to actually achieve that.
现在她可能比我更有信心政府有能力真正实现这一目标。
I have more faith in trying to bring as much market impulse as possible, as much freedom to the poor as we possibly can, but we have the same moral goals, which is one of the reasons that we love each other.
我更有信心努力为穷人带来尽可能多的市场冲动、尽可能多的自由，但我们有相同的道德目标，这是我们彼此相爱的原因之一。
On which political leaders Arthur admires
亚瑟钦佩哪些政治领袖
Put aside Zelenskyy because I know you honored him when you were running AEI.
把泽伦斯基放在一边，因为我知道你在管理 AEI 时尊重他。
Who’s a political leader you admire today?
今天您钦佩的政治领袖是谁？
I’ll say something controversial.
我要说一些有争议的话。
Sure.
当然。
You can ask me an even more targeted question.
你可以问我更有针对性的问题。
Tell me an American president in your lifetime that you authentically admire.
告诉我您一生中真正钦佩的美国总统。
Is there one, Tyler?
有吗，泰勒？
I was born in 1962.
我出生于1962年。
I would say Reagan and the first Bush would be the leaders in that.
我想说里根和第一任布什将是这方面的领导者。
I admire Obama in some ways, but don’t really like too many things he either did do or didn’t do.
我在某些方面很钦佩奥巴马，但不太喜欢他做过或没有做过的太多事情。
I at least see he was trying to be an admirable example of something.
我至少看到他试图成为令人钦佩的榜样。
I give him credit for that.
我对此表示赞赏。
That would be my answer.
这就是我的答案。
That’s a good answer.
这是一个很好的答案。
Agree with versus admire, that’s an important distinction that you just made.
同意与钦佩，这是你刚刚做出的一个重要区别。
I appreciate that an awful lot.
我非常感激。
My favorite president in my lifetime is George W.
我一生中最喜欢的总统是乔治·W·布什 (George W.
Bush.
布什。
How do I know that?
我怎么知道呢？
He’s the one I would like the most, actually.
事实上，他是我最想要的人。
Yes, but he’s my favorite president.
是的，但他是我最喜欢的总统。
Why?
为什么？
Because all the mistakes he made, I probably would have made too.
因为他犯的所有错误，我可能也会犯。
This is actually how you see somebody that you really admire.
这实际上就是你看待你真正钦佩的人的方式。
You don’t look at what they’ve done that’s successful.
你不会看到他们做了什么成功的事情。
Look at the things that they did that were unsuccessful and say, “Honestly, would I have made the same mistake?” If the answer is yes, then that’s somebody who’s, in a way, admirable in their view.
看看他们做过的那些不成功的事情，然后说：“老实说，我会犯同样的错误吗？”如果答案是肯定的，那么在他们看来，这个人在某种程度上是令人钦佩的。
Of course, you have to look at what they did subsequent to the errors as well to see whether or not they learned and whether they’re a person of integrity, which I think W.
当然，你还要看他们犯错后做了什么，看他们是否吸取了教训，是否是一个正直的人，我认为W.
manifestly is.
显然是。
This is somebody in public life that I have a great deal of admiration and love for, is George W.
在公共生活中，我非常钦佩和热爱这样的人，他就是乔治·W·布什 (George W.
Bush.
布什。
I like how he’s done his so-called retirement, but he’s a bit too much of a tragic figure for me to put him into that spot.
我喜欢他所谓的退休生活，但对我来说，他是一个悲剧人物，不能把他放在那个位置上。
Because of the Gulf War, I understand.
因为海湾战争，我明白了。
Just in general.
就一般而言。
A number of things went wrong.
有很多事情出了问题。
Right.
正确的。
No, that’s for sure.
不，这是肯定的。
All I can say is, if I had been president, probably the same things would have gone wrong.
我只能说，如果我是总统，可能也会出现同样的问题。
On the best French horn players
关于最好的圆号演奏家
Who’s the greatest French horn player ever besides you?
除了你之外，谁是最伟大的圆号演奏家？
That’s Dennis Brain, of course.
当然，那是丹尼斯·布莱恩。
Dennis Brain, who was the wunderkind who picked up the French horn at age two.
丹尼斯·布莱恩 (Dennis Brain) 是一位神童，两岁时就学会了圆号。
Two.
二。
By a very young man, was the principal hornist in the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra.
一个非常年轻的人，是皇家爱乐乐团的首席圆号手。
Did the first major recordings of the Mozart concertos, of both Strauss concertos.
录制了莫扎特协奏曲和施特劳斯协奏曲的第一张主要唱片。
Died tragically at the age of 36.
不幸去世，年仅36岁。
Coming back from the Edinburgh Music Festival at night, driving his high-powered sports car, ran it into the base of a bridge and died in a fiery accident, leaving the world without the world’s greatest French horn player.
晚上从爱丁堡音乐节回来，驾驶着他的高性能跑车，撞上桥基，在一场火灾中丧生，世界上失去了世界上最伟大的圆号演奏家。
Do you like the Ligeti horn trio?
你喜欢利盖蒂圆号三重奏吗？
Yes, I do.
是的，我愿意。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
I think it’s great.
我认为这很棒。
I like the Ligeti horn trio.
我喜欢利盖蒂圆号三重奏。
I love the Ligeti horn trio.
我喜欢利盖蒂圆号三重奏。
The best concert arrangement actually is that where the Ligeti horn trio is the first half and the Brahms horn trio is the second half.
最好的音乐会安排实际上是利盖蒂圆号三重奏为上半场，勃拉姆斯圆号三重奏为下半场。
That’s right.
这是正确的。
Now, why did you start getting worse in your 20s as a horn player?
那么，为什么你在 20 多岁的时候，作为圆号演奏家的表现就开始变得越来越差呢？
Because you were still playing all the time.
因为你一直都在玩。
Usually, you get better, right?
通常情况下，你会好起来的，对吧？
You’re not that old in your 20s.
你还不到20多岁。
Classical musicians, they tend to peak about age 36, according to the literature.
据文献报道，古典音乐家的巅峰年龄往往在 36 岁左右。
That’s when most of them will look back on their career and say, “That’s when I was doing my best playing.” My best playing was when I was about 20, as a matter of fact, is what I found.
那时他们中的大多数人都会回顾自己的职业生涯并说：“那是我打出最好成绩的时候。”我最好的演奏是在我20岁左右的时候，事实上，这就是我发现的。
In retrospect, I think there’s a plausible physical explanation.
回想起来，我认为有一个合理的物理解释。
We now know with brass players that those who don’t take care of themselves, they don’t warm up properly, actually, they play too long, it’s a highly physically taxing thing to do.
我们现在知道铜管乐手，那些不能照顾自己的人，他们没有适当的热身，实际上，他们演奏的时间太长，这是一件非常消耗体力的事情。
They get micro tears in the muscle in the upper lip, which now can be repaired.
他们的上唇肌肉出现微撕裂，现在可以修复。
That was not a medical technology that was on offer in those days.
那不是当时提供的医疗技术。
That’s one explanation.
这是一种解释。
The second is, quite frankly, Tyler, I was probably burning out, and I was getting ready for my next spiral, which by the time I was in my late 20s was going to turn out to be an economist, the world’s most noble profession.
第二个是，坦率地说，泰勒，我可能已经筋疲力尽了，我正在为我的下一个螺旋做好准备，到我 20 多岁的时候，我将成为一名经济学家，世界上最崇高的职业。
On Arthur’s spiral of careers
论亚瑟职业生涯的螺旋式上升
First, tell us your spiral theory of careers, and then we’ll get to you becoming an economist.
首先，告诉我们您的职业螺旋理论，然后我们将帮助您成为一名经济学家。
Oh, if only it were my theory.
哦，如果这是我的理论就好了。
It’s from Michael J.
来自迈克尔·J.
Driver, the great social psychologist from USC, writing in the 1990s.
德赖弗 (Driver)，南加州大学伟大的社会心理学家，于 20 世纪 90 年代写作。
He found, based on his research, that there are four kinds of careers based on psychological types.
根据他的研究，他发现根据心理类型可以分为四种职业。
Of course, there’s more.
当然，还有更多。
This is based on a statistical method that you and I don’t like very much, called factor analysis or principal components analysis, where the data speak.
这是基于一种你我都不太喜欢的统计方法，称为因子分析或主成分分析，用数据说话。
Nonetheless, the four types are what’s called the expert career.
尽管如此，这四种类型才是所谓的专家职业。
That was my dad’s academic career, where he taught for 40 years at the same institution, got a 2 percent raise every year, got his tenure in the mail without applying for it, and never thought of actually leaving because what he wanted was lifestyle and stability.
这就是我父亲的学术生涯，他在同一所机构任教了 40 年，每年加薪 2%，无需申请就直接获得了终身教职，而且从未想过真正离开，因为他想要的是生活方式和稳定。
That’s also the post office.
这也是邮局。
The second type of career is the transitory career, where you don’t live to work.
第二种职业是短暂的职业，你不是为了工作而生活的。
You work to live.
你工作是为了生活。
The only reason that you work at all is to support a lifestyle.
你工作的唯一原因是为了维持一种生活方式。
You’re a barista in Bangor for a little while, and then you’re driving a moving van, and then you fall in love and go move to a surf shack in San Diego or whatever, and your parents are very worried about you.
你在班戈做了一段时间的咖啡师，然后你开着一辆搬家货车，然后你坠入爱河，搬到圣地亚哥的冲浪小屋或其他地方，你的父母非常担心你。
The third type is what we believe at the Harvard Business School, characterizes everybody, which is the linear career where you only change every three to seven years, depending on if you can get something better in your silo.
第三种类型是我们哈佛商学院认为的每个人的特征，这是线性职业，你每三到七年才会改变一次，具体取决于你是否可以在你的筒仓中获得更好的东西。
The linear career means you go up and up and up and up and up.
线性职业意味着你不断上升、不断上升、不断上升、不断上升。
What I am is called the spiral, which is a series of mini-careers of your own design that last between seven and 12 years.
我被称为螺旋，这是你自己设计的一系列迷你职业，持续七到十二年。
Sometimes it’s for profit.
有时是为了利益。
Sometimes it’s nonprofit.
有时它是非营利性的。
Sometimes it’s making more money.
有时还可以赚更多的钱。
Sometimes it’s making less money.
有时候赚的钱会少一些。
Your career is an adventure where you’re impelled to go learn a big new thing.
你的职业生涯是一场冒险，你被迫去学习一项重大的新事物。
How is it you switched from French horn playing to economics?
你是如何从圆号演奏转向经济学的？
Pure serendipity, as a matter of fact.
事实上，纯粹是机缘巧合。
I went back to get my bachelor’s degree because we were living in Barcelona.
我回去获得学士学位，因为我们住在巴塞罗那。
We got married in Barcelona.
我们在巴塞罗那结婚了。
My wife had dropped out of high school at 16 to sing with a rock band.
我妻子 16 岁就从高中辍学，去摇滚乐队唱歌。
At the age of 27, started studying for high school again and said, “I got to tell you, this is the most interesting stuff I’ve ever studied.” She was taking a class in calculus.
27岁，再次开始高中学习，他说：“我必须告诉你，这是我学过的最有趣的东西。”她正在上微积分课。
I said, “Really?” She started teaching me calculus.
我说：“真的吗？”她开始教我微积分。
I signed up for some correspondence school classes for my bachelor’s degree.
我报名参加了一些函授学校课程以获得学士学位。
I had one semester of college at that point.
那时我已经大学一个学期了。
I went to college at 18, got one semester of credit during the first year, and then was offered the opportunity to pursue my excellence elsewhere, which means I got fired by the school, and then went out on the road as a classical French horn player.
我 18 岁上了大学，第一年获得了一个学期的学分，然后有机会在其他地方追求卓越，这意味着我被学校解雇了，然后就以古典圆号演奏家的身份踏上了道路。
When I went back to college by correspondence, I had to take a whole bunch of general education.
当我通过函授回到大学时，我必须接受一大堆通识教育。
I assumed that I would study musicology or composition.
我以为我会学习音乐学或作曲。
When I took economics, I was completely transformed.
当我学习经济学时，我彻底改变了。
It changed my life.
它改变了我的生活。
It gave me almost like a crystal ball into how the world works.
它就像一个水晶球一样让我了解世界是如何运作的。
Now, of course, that’s hubris.
现在，当然，这是傲慢。
I was in my 20s and Homo sapiens are most dangerous not when they have a gun, but when they have one semester of micro, as you know, because they’re trying to explain everything.
我当时 20 多岁，智人最危险的不是他们有枪的时候，而是他们上了一学期微观课程的时候，你知道，因为他们试图解释一切。
We know those people because I’ve subsequently taught that again and again and again.
我们认识这些人，因为我随后一次又一次地教导这些人。
I’m telling you, it really changed my life.
我告诉你，这确实改变了我的生活。
I became obsessed with how models could help me understand human behavior.
我开始痴迷于模型如何帮助我理解人类行为。
Then from there, I just couldn’t stop.
从那时起，我就停不下来了。
By the age of 31, I left the French horn.
31岁时，我离开了圆号。
I got a correspondence school degree completely at a distance.
我完全在远程获得了函授学位。
I never even visited the campus once.
我什至从来没有去过校园一次。
Then I started my PhD at 31, and I never looked back.
然后我在 31 岁开始攻读博士学位，并且再也没有回头。
Later on, did you just get bored with economics?
后来，你对经济学感到厌倦了吗？
No, I never got bored with economics, but I was actually teaching nonprofit economics.
不，我从来没有对经济学感到厌倦，但我实际上是在教授非营利经济学。
I studied a nonprofit studies program at the public policy school at Syracuse, at Maxwell School, teaching economics every semester.
我在锡拉丘兹公共政策学院和麦克斯韦学院学习了一个非营利性研究项目，每学期教授经济学。
I was working with a lot of nonprofit executive directors.
我曾与很多非营利组织的执行董事一起工作。
I wrote a textbook on fundraising and social entrepreneurship.
我写了一本关于筹款和社会创业的教科书。
I started feeling guilty.
我开始感到内疚。
I thought, “I wonder if I can actually do this.
我想：“我想知道我是否真的能做到这一点。
This is pretty hard work.” I started getting really interested.
这是相当辛苦的工作。”我开始变得非常感兴趣。
Along came an opportunity to run a nonprofit.
随之而来的是一个经营非营利组织的机会。
The American Enterprise Institute in Washington offered me the presidency through a series of failed searches, by the way.
顺便说一句，华盛顿的美国企业研究所通过一系列失败的搜寻向我提供了总统职位。
It’s not that I looked like such a great candidate.
这并不是因为我看起来像一个出色的候选人。
It’s just that they needed a president bad.
只是他们非常需要一位总统。
It’s very hard to find a chief executive of a think tank.
智库的首席执行官很难找到。
After a long trial with candidates, they offered it to me.
经过与候选人的长期试用后，他们将其提供给了我。
The last words uttered by the board were, “What the hell?”
董事会说的最后一句话是：“到底是什么？”
They gave me a trial interim period, and then I went, and I tried that.
他们给了我一段试用期，然后我就去尝试了。
What does it mean to actually put these ideas to work?
将这些想法实际付诸实践意味着什么？
What does it mean to raise money?
筹集资金意味着什么？
By the way, I was a visiting scholar at AEI at the time as an economist, and I love AEI.
顺便说一句，我当时是 AEI 的访问学者，是一名经济学家，我很喜欢 AEI。
I love the idea of the free enterprise system in service of humanity, in service of the poor, which is really the moral basis of what AEI is all about.
我喜欢自由企业制度为人类服务、为穷人服务的理念，这确实是 AEI 的道德基础。
I felt very, very good about that mission, and I did it for almost 11 years.
我对这项使命感觉非常非常好，并且我做了将近 11 年。
On the future of think tanks
论智库的未来
How long from now do you think it will be before an AI model with good prompting will write a better policy study than, say, the 70th percentile quality study from a good think tank?
您认为从现在起多久后，具有良好提示的人工智能模型才能编写出比来自优秀智库的 70% 质量研究更好的政策研究？
That’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
I think AI at not-too-distant future, will do a better job at executing policy analysis, but will do a very poor job at asking the right policy questions.
我认为，在不久的将来，人工智能在执行政策分析方面会做得更好，但在提出正确的政策问题方面会做得很差。
I think that that’s going to be the comparative advantage, is the creativity and the human impulse, the curiosity that humans actually bring to it.
我认为这将是比较优势，是创造力和人类的冲动，以及人类实际带来的好奇心。
The reason is because all large language models are being trained to what people have already done, ideas that people have already had.
原因是因为所有大型语言模型都正在根据人们已经做过的事情和人们已经拥有的想法进行训练。
What we’re incredibly good at using the right hemisphere, the why hemisphere of our brain, is asking new why questions, which actually leads us to the creativity that we’ll ask the best policy questions going forward.
我们非常擅长使用右半球，即大脑的“为什么”半球，提出新的“为什么”问题，这实际上引导我们发挥创造力，提出未来最好的政策问题。
That’s what we’re going to have to specialize in—you, me, and everybody else in the space.
这就是我们必须专注的领域——你、我和这个领域的其他人。
What happens to staff numbers?
员工人数会发生什么变化？
To staff members on the Hill?
给山上的工作人员吗？
No, staff numbers in a think tank.
不，是智囊团的员工人数。
Oh, staff numbers in a think tank.
哦，智囊团的员工人数。
I think that there will probably be less need for people who are doing the basic data analysis than there used to be.
我认为对进行基本数据分析的人员的需求可能会比以前减少。
Certainly less need for people to run down studies.
当然，人们不再需要进行学习。
I use consensus.ai, which is phenomenal.
我使用consensus.ai，这是惊人的。
You probably use it too.
你可能也使用它。
The best AI search engine for academics with access to the entire body of peer-reviewed research in the world.
为学术界提供的最佳人工智能搜索引擎，可以访问世界上所有同行评审的研究成果。
It’s the best research gopher I’ve ever had in my entire career.
这是我整个职业生涯中拥有过的最好的研究地鼠。
There’s going to be simply less need for that.
对此的需求将会减少。
Will there be more need for more creative jobs?
是否会更需要更具创意的工作？
Time will tell.
时间会证明一切。
On the future of classical music
论古典音乐的未来
What’s the future of classical music?
古典音乐的未来在哪里？
Classical music is ultimately something that’s best enjoyed by most people when it’s performed by human individuals in the realm of actual creativity.
古典音乐最终是大多数人最喜欢的东西，当它由人类个体在实际创造力的领域中演奏时。
Now, that’s an important thing to keep in mind because it’s still going to be an incredibly esoteric interest.
现在，这是一件需要记住的重要事情，因为它仍然是一个令人难以置信的深奥兴趣。
You and I love classical music, but we’re part of the 2 percent of the population that’s interested in it at all, which is perfectly fine as far as I’m concerned.
你和我都喜欢古典音乐，但我们是对古典音乐感兴趣的人口中的一部分，这对我来说完全没问题。
The truth of the matter is that having it recreated by an artificial intelligence, it won’t be the same for the 2 percent that actually like it in the first place.
事实是，如果由人工智能重新创建它，对于最初真正喜欢它的 2% 来说，它不会是一样的。
There will be no live concerts, which we like as well.
不会有现场音乐会，我们也喜欢这一点。
I’m actually weirdly bullish on the most anachronistic museum-based form of art that ever existed, which is a bunch of people using 17th-century instruments sitting on a stage just like they were in the time of Bach.
事实上，我奇怪地看好有史以来最不合时宜的博物馆艺术形式，即一群人坐在舞台上使用 17 世纪的乐器，就像巴赫时代一样。
In the United States, should the federal government subsidize it?
在美国，联邦政府应该补贴吗？
No, I don’t think it should.
不，我认为不应该。
You were ahead of me on this one, man.
在这一点上你比我领先，伙计。
I was playing in the orchestra when you were railing against federal subsidies to the arts back in the day.
当你当时抱怨联邦对艺术的补贴时，我正在管弦乐队中演奏。
When I came onto the scene, I realized as an economist that I was a free market economist.
当我来到现场时，我意识到作为一名经济学家，我是一名自由市场经济学家。
I was a classical liberal with libertarian tendencies.
我是一个具有自由意志主义倾向的古典自由主义者。
That’s just how I was.
我就是这样。
That’s how I was wired.
我就是这样被连线的。
I had no idea when I was in music, but I studied a little economics, and of course, that’s when I discovered your work.
我不知道我什么时候接触过音乐，但我学过一点经济学，当然，就是在那时我发现了你的作品。
I didn’t know any of your work except for your cultural economics work for the Association for Cultural Economics International.
除了您在国际文化经济协会的文化经济学工作之外，我不知道您的任何工作。
The result was it was you, me, and a couple of other cats out there that were real free marketeers in this space.
结果是你、我和其他几只猫才是这个领域真正的自由市场主义者。
I was railing against the idea of federal subsidies to the arts largely because of what I read from you.
我之所以反对联邦政府对艺术提供补贴的想法，很大程度上是因为我从你那里读到了这些内容。
On living in Spain
关于西班牙的生活
Let’s say you had to live in the Spanish-speaking world.
假设您必须生活在西班牙语世界。
Catalonia, I’m including as part of this.
加泰罗尼亚，我也将其纳入其中。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
That’s a controversial statement, Tyler.
这是一个有争议的说法，泰勒。
It’s in Spain, right?
这是在西班牙，对吗？
It’s in Spain, sort of.
有点像在西班牙。
Would you still pick the city of Barcelona, or Madrid has taken the lead, or Mexico City?
你还会选择巴塞罗那这座城市，还是马德里领先，还是墨西哥城？
Is the dark horse there, or where do you go?
黑马在吗，或者去哪里？
I love Barcelona.
我爱巴塞罗那。
Barcelona is where my heart is and always will be.
巴塞罗那是我的心所在，并且永远都会在。
Now, part of it is I’m a biased witness.
现在，部分原因是我是一个有偏见的证人。
I fell in love and got married there.
我在那里坠入爱河并结婚。
My soulmate is from Barcelona.
我的灵魂伴侣来自巴塞罗那。
The truth of the matter is this is tied up not just in Spanish, but the fact that I speak Catalan, and it’s an important part of my life as well, is how this turns out.
事实是，这不仅与西班牙语有关，而且我会说加泰罗尼亚语，这也是我生活的重要组成部分，这就是结果。
I also think, frankly, that Barcelona is the most interesting city in the world, despite all the bad things that have actually happened there.
坦率地说，我还认为巴塞罗那是世界上最有趣的城市，尽管那里实际发生了所有不好的事情。
The Marxist mayor that turned it into a crime-ridden hellhole in certain neighborhoods.
这位马克思主义市长将这里变成了某些街区犯罪猖獗的地狱。
These things are predictable.
这些事情都是可以预见的。
It’s basically the San Francisco of Spain at this point, meaning it’s the most interesting, beautiful city that is suffering a lot and that I hope will come back.
现在它基本上是西班牙的旧金山，这意味着它是最有趣、最美丽的城市，正在遭受很多苦难，我希望它能回来。
I’ll still take Barcelona.
我还是选择巴塞罗那。
Short answer.
简短的回答。
It’s much more touristy, and it’s economically stagnated.
这里的旅游业更加发达，而且经济停滞不前。
That’s correct.
这是正确的。
I might have once said Barcelona, but now it’s clearly Madrid for me.
我曾经可能会说巴塞罗那，但现在对我来说显然是马德里。
Madrid is a more vital city for sure.
马德里无疑是一个更有活力的城市。
It’s more entrepreneurial as well.
它也更具创业精神。
In my day, I was living in Barcelona in the ’80s and ’90s, and Madrid was a gray city of government functionaries.
在我那个时代，80 年代和 90 年代我住在巴塞罗那，而马德里是一座政府官员的灰色城市。
Now that’s actually where the action is.
现在这实际上就是行动的地方。
Still, Barcelona, man.
不过，巴塞罗那，伙计。
It’s got the modernist architecture.
它具有现代主义建筑风格。
It’s on the sea.
它在海上。
It’s got the mountains.
它有山。
It has the natural beauty behind it that you just can’t get anyplace else, and by the way, Roman ruins.
它背后的自然美景是你在其他地方找不到的，顺便说一句，还有罗马遗址。
What’s not to like?
有什么不喜欢的？
What’s something about Catalonia that you might understand, and maybe American outsiders do not?
关于加泰罗尼亚，有什么是你可能了解而美国局外人可能不了解的？
The Catalan language is a very distinct thing that people don’t understand when they first move to Spain, even those who are expats.
加泰罗尼亚语是一种非常独特的语言，人们第一次搬到西班牙时都无法理解，即使是外籍人士也是如此。
It has a distinct culture, distinct literature, distinct art, distinct poetry, and that gives it a particular flavor, an idiosyncrasy to it, an artsiness that doesn’t exist in other places.
它有独特的文化、独特的文学、独特的艺术、独特的诗歌，这赋予了它独特的风味、特质和艺术性，这是其他地方所不存在的。
Incredibly winsome, incredibly interesting.
令人难以置信的迷人，令人难以置信的有趣。
By the way, the Catalan language itself is just extremely beautiful.
顺便说一句，加泰罗尼亚语本身非常美丽。
Do you still read in Spanish and or Catalan?
您还在阅读西班牙语和/或加泰罗尼亚语吗？
Yes.
是的。
I lecture in both, as a matter of fact.
事实上，我两者都讲过课。
When I go to Barcelona, which is every year, a couple of times ordinarily, I will usually give talks and lectures at the university and in public in both Spanish and Catalan.
当我每年去巴塞罗那几次时，我通常会在大学和公开场合用西班牙语和加泰罗尼亚语进行演讲和讲座。
How would you describe the extra something you get from both reading in those languages and lecturing in them and speaking them?
您如何描述您从这些语言的阅读、讲授和口语中获得的额外收获？
There’s research on this, of course.
当然，对此有研究。
That’s the research Raymond Cattell and subsequent researchers on crystallized intelligence.
这就是雷蒙德·卡特尔（Raymond Cattell）和随后的研究人员对结晶智力的研究。
Crystallized intelligence is one of the reasons that people are better teachers when they get older, people have better vocabularies when they get older, they’re better Scrabble players when they get older.
结晶智力是人们随着年龄的增长成为更好的老师、随着年龄的增长拥有更好的词汇量、随着年龄的增长成为更好的拼字游戏玩家的原因之一。
The reason is because of pattern recognition.
原因是因为模式识别。
You can help that along.
你可以帮忙。
You can get better crystallized intelligence, a bigger library, and a better ability to use it as you get older if you study a foreign language.
如果你学习一门外语，随着年龄的增长，你可以获得更好的结晶智力、更大的图书馆以及更好的使用它的能力。
Now, I had looked at that literature.
现在，我已经看过那些文献了。
I try to live according to research.
我尝试根据研究来生活。
Why be a behavioral scientist if you can’t live according to the research?
如果你不能按照研究的结果生活，为什么要成为一名行为科学家呢？
I saw that people became happier, and they had richer lives, and they actually were better able to learn foreign languages after 50.
我看到人们变得更快乐，他们的生活更丰富，而且他们实际上在50岁以后能够更好地学习外语。
I said, “I wonder if that’s true?” I had never taught in Catalan.
我说：“我想知道这是真的吗？”我从未用加泰罗尼亚语教书。
I just spoke in street Catalan up to that point because when I lived there and with my wife, et cetera, we speak 50-50, Spanish and English at home with some Catalan thrown in.
到目前为止，我只是在街上说加泰罗尼亚语，因为当我住在那里时，和我的妻子等人一起，我们在家里说 50-50，西班牙语和英语，还有一些加泰罗尼亚语。
I decided that I was going to give a series of speeches in Barcelona in Catalan.
我决定在巴塞罗那用加泰罗尼亚语发表一系列演讲。
I studied up, and I did that, and it dramatically improved my ability to speak Catalan.
我学习了，我就这么做了，这极大地提高了我说加泰罗尼亚语的能力。
My Catalan is much better at 61 than it was at 41 or 31, as a matter of fact, and that’s made my life better.
事实上，我 61 岁时的加泰罗尼亚语比 41 或 31 岁时要好得多，这让我的生活变得更好。
Now, you love doing the Camino in northern Spain.
现在，您喜欢在西班牙北部走卡米诺。
As a result, are you ever tempted to walk the earth as your thing for, say, the next 10 years?
因此，您是否曾经想过在未来 10 年里以走遍地球作为自己的爱好？
That’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
I’m not tempted to do that because I’m a married man and I love my wife.
我不想这么做，因为我是一个已婚男人，而且我爱我的妻子。
She would do it with you.
她会和你一起做。
That’s what I was going to say.
这就是我要说的。
It’s all I could do to get her to do eight days of the Camino with me.
我能做的就是让她和我一起参加八天的卡米诺之旅。
To do the next several thousand days walking around the world, there’s just no way.
在接下来的几千天里，要环游世界是没有办法的。
All I can say is I would be a bachelor, and that’s not in my goal set.
我只能说我会成为一名单身汉，但这不在我设定的目标之内。
On age, peak performance, and what he'll do next
关于年龄、巅峰表现以及他下一步会做什么
Your current age is best suited for peak performance at doing what?
您当前的年龄最适合在做什么方面发挥最佳表现？
In terms of teaching?
在教学方面？
No, anything.
不，任何东西。
It’s not French horn, it’s not baseball, but it’s, fill in the blank.
这不是圆号，也不是棒球，但它是，填空。
It is teaching.
这是教学。
Teaching.
教学。
It’s absolutely teaching.
这绝对是教学。
It absolutely is.
绝对是。
That’s actually according to the research and not just my personal experience.
这实际上是根据研究得出的，而不仅仅是我的个人经验。
It’s very clear that the best teachers are over 40, ideally over 60, and many even over 70, as a matter of fact.
很明显，最好的老师都在 40 岁以上，最好是 60 岁以上，事实上，许多人甚至超过 70 岁。
That’s when you actually have the best ability to synthesize information, to recognize patterns, and to express ideas with greatest acuity in the language that nonspecialists can understand.
那时你实际上拥有最佳的能力来综合信息、识别模式并以非专业人士可以理解的语言以最大的敏锐度表达想法。
Where do you most want to travel to and why?
您最想去哪里旅行以及为什么？
It’s a good question, and part of the reason I hesitated, because I’m on the road 48 weeks a year, as it is, I’m traveling every single week for my work.
这是一个很好的问题，也是我犹豫的部分原因，因为我每年有 48 周在路上，事实上，我每周都在出差工作。
I don’t see travel as an adventure.
我不认为旅行是一种冒险。
I don’t see it as a task, but I’ve been on the road starting as a professional musician when I was 19 years old.
我不认为这是一项任务，但我从 19 岁起就开始走上职业音乐家的道路。
I’ve been months a year on the road.
我每年都有几个月在路上。
I’m a road warrior.
我是一名公路战士。
That George Clooney movie, Up in the Air, that’s how I’ve always felt about life, is going from place to place to place to place.
乔治·克鲁尼的电影《在空中》就是我对生活的一贯感受，从一个地方到另一个地方。
The result of it is that I don’t have ambitions to see a particular place.
结果就是我没有想去特定地方的野心。
Most likely, I will see it over the course of my work.
最有可能的是，我会在工作过程中看到它。
I’m probably more likely to give you some sort of corny metaphysical answer like heaven.
我可能更有可能给你一些老生常谈的形而上学答案，比如天堂。
There’s plenty of places your work is unlikely to bring you, right?
有很多地方是你的工作不太可能带给你的，对吧？
Right.
正确的。
They’re a specific kind of place.
它们是一种特殊的地方。
They might tend to be poorer or less politically free.
他们可能往往更贫穷或政治自由度较低。
Are you curious in general to sample more from that part of the world?
您总体上是否好奇，想要从世界的那个地区品尝更多样品？
Yes, I would.
是的，我会的。
I’ve not spent time in sub-Saharan Africa, and I feel like I should.
我没有在撒哈拉以南非洲待过，但我觉得我应该去。
I really would like to.
我真的很愿意。
I’d like to spend more time in Southeast Asia than I have because I’ve experienced a lot of my Ahana Buddhism in the northern tier, including in Tibet, but not in the southern tier of Asia.
我想在东南亚待更多的时间，因为我在北部地区（包括西藏）经历了很多阿哈纳佛教，但在亚洲南部地区却没有。
I would like to spend more time studying with Theravada Buddhists.
我想花更多的时间跟随上座部佛教徒学习。
There are a number of both cultural and religious things that I would like to understand better than I do.
有许多文化和宗教方面的事情我想比我自己更好地理解。
Last two questions.
最后两个问题。
First, how do you feel you will approach and deal with your own death?
首先，你觉得你将如何接近和处理自己的死亡？
I hope with courage.
我希望有勇气。
I have a pretty high confidence that I will because I don’t have a fear of death.
我非常有信心我会的，因为我不害怕死亡。
I don’t even have a great fear of suffering.
我什至不太害怕受苦。
What I hope is that my death will be an inspiration to other people to live well.
我希望我的死能激励其他人过上美好的生活。
Before the last question, just to put in another plug for your book.
在最后一个问题之前，只是为了给你的书加上另一个插件。
It is available on Amazon and many other places.
它可以在亚马逊和许多其他地方购买。
It is called The Meaning of Your Life: Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness.
这本书的名字是《你生命的意义：在空虚的时代寻找目标》。
Last question, what will you do next?
最后一个问题，接下来你会做什么？
I’m thinking circus juggler or firefighter because I’m coming to my next spiral, my next 10-year mark.
我想到的是马戏团杂耍演员或消防员，因为我即将进入下一个螺旋，我的下一个 10 年目标。
It’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
I’m thinking right now, at age 61, what will it mean to do less?
我现在就在想，我已经 61 岁了，少做一点意味着什么？
I’m working hard.
我正在努力工作。
I’m traveling a lot.
我经常旅行。
What I’m thinking about right now for the next spiral, I’m reading the work of Josef Pieper, the great mid-20th-century German philosopher who wrote Leisure: The Basis of Culture.
我现在正在思考下一个螺旋，我正在阅读约瑟夫·皮珀 (Josef Pieper) 的著作，他是 20 世纪中叶伟大的德国哲学家，着有《休闲：文化的基础》(Leisure: The Basis of Culture)。
He defined leisure not as acedia, not as sitting on a beach, but as actually productive activity for which one is not compensated with the worldly rewards, largely in terms of spiritual depth, in terms of relationship development, and with respect to deep learning of new skills and new ideas.
他对休闲的定义不是绝望，不是坐在海滩上，而是一种实际上的生产性活动，人们在这种活动中得不到世俗的回报，主要是在精神深度、关系发展以及对新技能和新思想的深入学习方面。
That’s what I’m thinking about, is actually what a proper life that has more leisure in it, what it can possibly mean.
这就是我想的，实际上什么是真正有更多闲暇的生活，可能意味着什么。
Maybe that’s the next spiral, is actually simply not working so much.
也许这就是下一个螺旋，实际上根本不起作用。
Arthur Brooks, thank you very much.
阿瑟·布鲁克斯，非常感谢你。
Thank you, Tyler.
谢谢你，泰勒。
This is wonderful.
这太棒了。
Thank you for your work, which has really meant a lot to me.
谢谢你的工作，这对我来说意义重大。
Same here.
同样在这里。
Image Credit: Jenny Sherman
图片来源：珍妮·谢尔曼
This episode was made possible through the support of the John Templeton Foundation.
这一集是在约翰·邓普顿基金会的支持下得以实现的。