Any Austin on the Hermeneutics of Video Games (Ep. 245)

Hello, everyone.

大家好。

Welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.

欢迎回到与泰勒对话。

Today, I’m very happy to be here, live and in person, chatting with Any Austin.

今天，我很高兴能来到这里，亲自与 Any Austin 进行现场交谈。

Now, I know not all of Conversations with Tyler listeners are on YouTube very actively or necessarily playing video games, but Any is, in fact, one of the most famous guests we have had on of late.

现在，我知道并不是所有《Conversations with Tyler》的听众都在 YouTube 上非常活跃或者一定是在玩电子游戏，但事实上，Any 是我们最近邀请的最著名的嘉宾之一。

His videos are watched by many millions of people.

他的视频有数百万人观看。

I’m very happy to be here and excited to be in this situation.

我很高兴来到这里，也很高兴处于这种情况。

I think it’s funny, and I would like to point out — simultaneously, you said I’m the best in the world at this and also the only, then, no one else is like me.

我觉得这很有趣，我想指出 —— 同时，你说我在这方面是世界上最好的，也是唯一的，那么，没有人能像我一样。

I like the combination of those two things.

我喜欢这两件事的结合。

I like being the best in the world at something that nobody else does.

我喜欢在别人做不到的事情上成为世界上最好的。

I think that’s a really good place to be.

我认为那是一个非常好的地方。

I think that’s the future of the modern world in fact.

我认为这实际上就是现代世界的未来。

If you cannot easily outline what you’re the best in the world at, it’s hard to do very, very well.

如果你不能轻易地概述出你在世界上最擅长的是什么，就很难做得非常非常好。

Furthermore, what you’re the best in the world at can sound quite strange, and it doesn’t hold you back very much.

此外，你所擅长的事情可能听起来很奇怪，但这并不会阻碍你太多。

Well, okay, the modern world — that does make sense because, if you consider that most of the things that many people do are all going to get like, what is this thing that people talk about, where what ends up being important is going to be the thing that sets you apart.

好吧，现代世界——这确实有道理，因为如果你考虑到许多人所做的大多数事情都会变得像人们谈论的事情是什么，最终重要的事情将成为让你与众不同的事情。

It’s no longer that you need to be good at the thing that other people have established.

你不再需要擅长别人已经建立的事情。

It’s like your charisma, and it actually is your specific, unique niche that does set you apart.

这就像你的魅力，实际上是你特定的、独特的利基让你与众不同。

That stuff is going to be much higher value, I guess, going forward, which I guess I can follow you on that.

我想，未来这些东西的价值将会更高，我想我可以跟随你的脚步。

The people who care about that — they will find you, right?

关心这个的人 ——他们会找到你，对吗？

Well, the YouTube algorithm has a lot to do with that, but if I do my job, they should be able to find me.

嗯，YouTube 算法与此有很大关系，但如果我做好我的工作，他们应该能够找到我。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

A lot of people would argue that being found is a very different thing from making a good thing.

很多人会认为，被发现与创造出一件好东西是完全不同的事情。

I don’t know if I would agree with that.

我不知道我是否同意这一点。

That’d be a whole separate conversation we could have.

我们可以进行一次完全单独的对话。

I think I do tend to agree that if I’m doing what I’m doing better than anyone else is doing it, people will find me.

我想我确实倾向于同意，如果我做的事情比其他人做得更好，人们就会找到我。

I think that’s probably true.

我想这可能是真的。

Not just through the algorithm.

不仅仅是通过算法。

Podcasts, obviously.

显然是播客。

That’s not the main way, but on other forms of social media, word of mouth, most of all, people in gaming communities, on Discord, right?

这不是主要方式，但在其他形式的社交媒体上，口碑传播，最重要的是，游戏社区中的人们，在 Discord 上，对吧？

If I was to put a number on it, I would bet that it’s 90 percent the YouTube algorithm.

如果我要给出一个数字，我敢打赌 90% 都是 YouTube 算法。

I don’t know that any other algorithm that’s been put into place is as adept at getting content that people want to watch to the people who want to watch it.

我不知道有任何其他算法能够如此擅长将人们想要观看的内容提供给想要观看的人。

A lot of people talk a lot about that — post on social media, put your videos here, word of mouth, this, that, and the other.

很多人都在谈论这个问题——在社交媒体上发帖，把你的视频放在这里，口碑相传，这个，那个，等等。

You’re renowned at finding and analyzing details of video games that other people don’t see or notice or think carefully about.

您以发现和分析其​​他人没有看到、注意到或仔细思考的视频游戏细节而闻名。

When you’re just walking around in a city or suburb, are you noticing strange things and analyzing them?

当你在城市或郊区散步时，你是否注意到奇怪的事情并分析它们？

Is this just how you are, and then you applied it to games?

你就是这样，然后把它应用到游戏中吗？

I think kind of, yes.

我想有点，是的。

You’re not in a fog in general.

一般来说，你并没有陷入迷雾中。

I’m not.

我不是。

Well, I wouldn’t say I’m not in a fog.

好吧，我不会说我没有陷入迷雾。

I’m somehow, simultaneously, in a fog while noticing the fog.

不知何故，我同时在雾中注意到雾。

Maybe it’s what it is.

也许就是这样。

I do feel like I’m in a fog when I walk around.

当我四处走动时，我确实感觉自己像在雾中。

My brain is foggy, but I do think I have just a built-in .

我的大脑很模糊，但我确实认为我有一个内置的。

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I don’t know if it’s built in or if it was learned or what, but I just like looking at stuff.

我不知道它是内置的还是学习的还是什么，但我只是喜欢看东西。

I think there’s a lot of, when I walk around now, if I’m walking from where I’m staying to here, for example, I do see way more utility poles than I used to just by virtue of having made that video, having made that content.

我认为，当我现在四处走动时，例如，如果我从住的地方步行到这里，我确实会看到比以前更多的电线杆，仅仅因为制作了该视频、制作了该内容。

Through all this looking and thinking, do you feel you’ve learned something about real-world infrastructure that the rest of us don’t think enough about?

通过所有这些观察和思考，您是否觉得您已经了解了一些我们其他人没有充分考虑的现实世界基础设施的知识？

Yes.

是的。

It’s just way cool, it’s way more important than you think it is.

这太酷了，它比你想象的更重要。

There’s just so much stuff that we assume is very simple.

有太多我们认为非常简单的东西。

One of the things that I love to get into and talk about is this idea of, as we look at a thing in a video game, say a piece of electrical infrastructure, we look at it, and we go, how realistic is this?

我喜欢讨论和谈论的事情之一就是这个想法，当我们在视频游戏中看到一个东西时，比如说一个电气基础设施，我们看着它，然后我们想，这有多现实？

How realistic is it not?

有多不现实呢？

Obviously, I’m not trained in any of this stuff, so I’m talking to other people and reading all sorts of papers on this, that, and the other, to try and make sense of it.

显然，我没有接受过任何这些方面的培训，所以我正在与其他人交谈并阅读有关这个​​、那个和其他的各种论文，试图理解它。

At a metaphysical level, do you ever, at times, start doubting whether the entirety of the real world is actually fully perfectly knit together the way a game might be imperfect?

在形而上学的层面上，你是否有时会开始怀疑整个现实世界是否真的像游戏可能不完美的方式完全完美地结合在一起？

Do I ever start .

我有没有开始过。

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Restate that question.

重申这个问题。

Let me think about that again.

让我再考虑一下。

Do you ever think there’s a glitch in the actual world?

你有没有想过现实世界有什么问题？

There’re plenty of glitches or incomplete features of games, but you study the glitches so much in games, and then you’re out in the real world.

游戏有很多故障或不完整的功能，但你在游戏中研究了很多故障，然后你就进入了现实世界。

Do you ever, just 1 percent of the time, start doubting whether reality is all real and fitting together?

您是否曾经（只有 1% 的时间）开始怀疑现实是否都是真实的、是否吻合？

There’re a couple of different ways in which I approach that when we think.

当我们思考时，我会采用几种不同的方式来处理这个问题。

A lot of people will ask you, “Is the whole thing a simulation?” This is a common thing.

很多人会问你，“这一切都是模拟的吗？”这是很常见的事情。

As computers get more advanced, and you can very easily watch the line of, here’s what a video game looks like now.

随着计算机变得越来越先进，你可以很容易地观看视频游戏现在的样子。

Here’s what it looked like 30 years ago, 30 years in the future, 100 years in the future, whatever.

这是 30 年前的样子，30 年后的样子，100 年后的样子，等等。

You can pretty easily envision a world, and this is where, obviously, this always goes.

你可以很容易地想象一个世界，显然，这就是它永远存在的地方。

We could probably simulate a pretty good, accurate, detailed, especially with what AI is capable of and the way that it is able to put things together.

我们或许可以模拟一个相当好的、准确的、详细的，特别是人工智能的能力以及它能够将事物组合在一起的方式。

As you probably know, in physics, quantum mechanics, and general relativity — they’re not obviously consistent with each other.

你可能知道，在物理学、量子力学和广义相对论中，它们彼此并不明显一致。

I sometimes think there’s a metatheory that all possible universes exist.

我有时认为有一种元理论认为所有可能的宇宙都存在。

Many of those possible universes have glitches.

许多可能的宇宙都有缺陷。

It may not be a simulation, just not all the pieces fit together, and we’re in one of them.

这可能不是一个模拟，只是并不是所有的部分都能组合在一起，而我们就在其中之一。

It works well enough to survive.

它运作良好足以生存。

That’s the thing.

就是这样。

It would have to work well enough.

它必须工作得足够好。

What’s that word?

那是什么词？

It might be a confirmation bias-y kind of thing.

这可能是一种确认偏差。

If it didn’t work well enough to survive, we wouldn’t be here, so blah-blah-blah.

如果它不能很好地生存，我们就不会在这里，所以等等等等。

Anthropic principle, yes.

人择原理，是的。

Yes, there you go.

是的，就这样。

That would be more my instinct as a trained YouTuber, that it’s not so much that it’s an alien with a cape and a computer somewhere, that it’s more things seem to work by rules, and it’s likely — if we understand things about many possible realities — that those rules would not always align in such a way that we could be here having a conversation.

作为一名训练有素的 YouTuber，这更像是我的本能，与其说它是一个披着斗篷、在某处有一台电脑的外星人，不如说它更多的是事物似乎按规则运行，而且很可能 ——“如果我们了解许多可能的现实”—— 这些规则并不总是以这样的方式对齐，以至于我们可以在这里进行对话。

So, it also then follows that there’s some spectrum on which those rules are cohesive versus not.

因此，随之而来的是，这些规则在某些范围内是有凝聚力的还是没有凝聚力的。

It’s possible — and maybe likely, too — that those rules just work for how long?

这些规则有可能会有效多久？

Over 13 billion years, 14 billion years?

超过130亿年，140亿年？

Whatever it is.

不管是什么。

They work for however many billions of years, and then at some point, they’re just going to whatever.

它们工作了数十亿年，然后在某个时候，它们就会去做任何事情。

There’s that David Cronenberg movie, EXistenZ, about some of these hypotheses.

大卫·柯南伯格 (David Cronenberg) 的电影《EXistenZ》就是关于其中一些假设的。

I have to write it down.

我必须把它写下来。

You should watch it if you haven’t seen it.

如果你还没有看过，你应该看一下。

I’ll have to.

我必须这样做。

It’s about people starting to observe glitches in their world and wondering whether they’re part of a game or something else.

这是关于人们开始观察他们的世界中的故障并想知道他们是游戏的一部分还是其他东西。

Does it have a similarity philosophically to .

它在哲学上与.有相似之处吗？

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This is what I was saying I’m not keen on.

这就是我所说的我不喜欢的。

This would’ve been a better thing, like this idea of glitches in The Matrix.

这本来是一件更好的事情，就像《黑客帝国》中的故障想法一样。

It’s the very obvious things that are like, oh, it’s a whatever.

这是非常明显的事情，就像，哦，这是什么。

I feel like that’s unlikely.

我觉得这不太可能。

They’re subtle.

它们很微妙。

It’s more like a Thomas Pynchon kind of world.

这更像是托马斯·品钦式的世界。

You’ll see them as you start to explore more of how these rules actually interact and whatnot.

当您开始更多地探索这些规则如何实际相互作用等时，您就会看到它们。

I think that’s an interesting idea.

我认为这是一个有趣的想法。

Again, a small part of why I love video games is because of how there’s so much fun, symbolic interaction between you and the game that it maps so well onto the way that we interact with the world around us.

同样，我喜欢电子游戏的一小部分原因是你和游戏之间有如此多有趣的、象征性的互动，它很好地映射了我们与周围世界互动的方式。

I think, in addition to being a wonderful, and, in some ways, the most diverse and effective artistic medium right now — which I have to ask you about because that’s part of why we’re here.

我认为，除了成为一种美妙的、在某些方面是目前最多样化和最有效的艺术媒介之外，我还必须问你这一点，因为这就是我们在这里的部分原因。

You said something in response to Jeff.

你说了一些话来回应杰夫。

Everyone sent me the clip.

大家都把剪辑发给我了。

It might be AI-generated video in the next century.

下个世纪它可能是人工智能生成的视频。

When you watch those now, do they drive you crazy because they’re so full of mistakes?

当您现在观看这些内容时，它们是否会让您发疯，因为它们充满了错误？

Or do you just sit back and chill?

或者你只是坐下来冷静一下？

I have almost no interest now in the visual.

我现在对视觉几乎没有兴趣。

The art AI, I think, has gotten less interesting as it’s gotten more competent, whereas the inverse has happened with LLMs and stuff.

我认为，艺术人工智能随着能力的增强而变得不再那么有趣，而法学硕士之类的事情却发生了相反的情况。

Those things are seriously capable educational tools.

这些东西都是非常有用的教育工具。

Why not dramatic resonance?

为什么没有戏剧性的共鸣？

There’ll be seven-minute AI-generated movies.

将会有七分钟的人工智能生成的电影。

They’ll be often surrealistic, quite fascinating.

它们通常是超现实主义的，非常迷人。

I don’t think that’s what people want from it.

我认为这不是人们想要的。

If you look at the way that the image — I don’t even remember what they’re called anymore because I stopped playing with them — but all of the AI image-generating things have trended towards competency and cleanliness and whatever.

如果你看看图像的方式——“我什至不记得它们叫什么了，因为我不再玩它们了”——但所有人工智能图像生成的东西都趋向于能力和清洁等等。

Competency is a great way to put it, and I think that that’s the way that we’re going to .

能力是一个很好的表达方式，我认为这就是我们要做的。

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Potential advantage might be, if say, token costs are low enough, you ask it to run a million different storylines and then you have the AI judge what it’s generated and it sends you the one it thinks you’re most interested in, so only one in a million has to be really good, but it has its own algorithm and it gives you that one.

潜在的优势可能是，如果代币成本足够低，你要求它运行一百万个不同的故事情节，然后你让人工智能判断它生成的内容，然后它会向你发送它认为你最感兴趣的故事情节，所以只有百万分之一必须是真正好的，但它有自己的算法，它会给你那个。

Yes, this is why I’m prefacing everything.

是的，这就是我为一切做序言的原因。

If you send these timescales out into infinity .

如果您将这些时间尺度发送到无穷大。

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People always say, “AI will never capture what’s truly in the human heart.” It probably will eventually.

人们常说：“人工智能永远无法捕捉到人类内心的真实想法。”最终可能会的。

There’s no reason to think it won’t.

没有理由认为它不会。

I guess what you’re saying is, I could go to the AI and say, “I like stuff that looks bad.

我想你的意思是，我可以对人工智能说：“我喜欢看起来很糟糕的东西。

Give me stuff that looks bad.” It would probably be able to do that, and that’s fine.

给我一些看起来很糟糕的东西。”它可能能够做到这一点，那很好。

It will get fast enough that it will then make sense to do that.

它会变得足够快，这样就有意义了。

What timescale are we talking?

我们谈论的时间范围是什么？

Are we talking next 10, 20 years?

我们谈论的是未来10年、20年吗？

Ten years?

十年？

I don’t know.

我不知道。

Right now, it takes so much time for me to get — and I can’t even do it — to get an AI image thing to make something that looks cool to me.

现在，我需要花费很多时间才能获得人工智能图像来制作对我来说看起来很酷的东西，但我什至做不到。

I just don’t know that the fringes of art — or whatever the outside edges of it are — are just not what it seems to be like having a preference for.

我只是不知道艺术的边缘——或者无论它的外部边缘是什么——并不像人们所偏好的那样。

Again, I get what you’re saying, that yes, you could teach it to have a preference for anything, and that’s true.

再说一次，我明白你的意思，是的，你可以教它对任何东西有偏好，这是真的。

It’s just hard to experiment in most other media, whereas AI, again, at some low enough token cost, you could run a billion experiments.

在大多数其他媒体中进行实验是很困难的，而人工智能，同样，以足够低的代币成本，你可以进行十亿次实验。

The thing that I am thinking in my brain, or can come up with, is always .

我脑子里想的，或者能想到的，始终是。

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If I can come up with something faster than the AI, the AI is not useful to me.

如果我能想出比人工智能更快的东西，人工智能对我就没用了。

Right now, that’s still where we are, for me, with the image.

现在，对我来说，这仍然是我们的形象。

Yes, at some point, inevitably, but this is that same thing, that it will learn how to tap into what is special about the human soul and all that, but it’s not good at that yet.

是的，在某些时候，不可避免地，但这是同一件事，它将学习如何利用人类灵魂的特殊之处等等，但它还不擅长于此。

In 10 years, I could maybe see it.

10年后，我也许能看到它。

The AI, of course.

当然是人工智能。

Then the AI picks one out, and it gets it right every time?

然后人工智能选了一个，而且每次都选对了？

Could you do that right now?

你现在可以这样做吗？

Could you train it to do .

你能训练它去做吗？

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You could probably —

你或许可以 ——

Not yet, but it’s in the works, I would say.

还没有，但我想说，它正在开发中。

And you think within 10 years?

你认为10年内会怎样？

When it will be affordable is maybe the bigger question but I don’t think it’s 100 years away.

什么时候人们可以负担得起可能是一个更大的问题，但我认为不会是 100 年后。

Do you envision, do you think .

您是否设想，您是否认为。

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You like art and stuff, right?

你喜欢艺术之类的东西，对吧？

You like looking at things.

你喜欢看东西。

Right, of course.

对，当然。

Would you do that as a replace?

你会这样做作为替代吗？

Could you say, “Well, we know that you like” — whatever artists you like looking at — “We’re going to attach this AI to a 3D printer, and we know exactly what you like.” Rather than going to look at art.

你可以说，“好吧，我们知道你喜欢” — 无论你喜欢看什么艺术家 — “我们将把这个 AI 连接到 3D 打印机，我们确切地知道你喜欢什么。”而不是去看艺术。

Do you think that there is something lost by going, boop, and waiting five minutes?

你是否认为，等五分钟就失去了一些东西？

And then, “We’ve 3D-printed you the perfect sculpture.”

然后，“我们已经为您 3D 打印出了完美的雕塑。”

The role in history is important to me.

在历史中的作用对我来说很重要。

Now AI-generated art would have its own role in history, but it wouldn’t compete directly with Michelangelo.

现在，人工智能生成的艺术将在历史上发挥自己的作用，但它不会与米开朗基罗直接竞争。

When it comes to movies, I think it’s different because mostly when I’m seeing movies, I’m seeing new movies that don’t yet have a role in history.

说到电影，我认为这是不同的，因为大多数时候我看电影时，我看到的是尚未在历史中占有一席之地的新电影。

If the new movie were made in part or fully by the AI, or maybe I’m making it myself, I don’t think I would be any less interested.

如果这部新电影部分或全部由人工智能制作，或者也许是我自己制作，我想我的兴趣不会减少。

It’s all artifice anyway.

无论如何，这都是技巧。

There’re two things I take a little issue with there.

有两件事我觉得有点问题。

I don’t take issue with the fact that the role in history is important and beautiful, but the fact that you can watch a movie and get an emotional thing from it without having its role in history implies that there’s some intrinsic, whatever, value to the movie itself, et cetera.

我不认为历史中的角色是重要和美丽的，但事实上，你可以观看一部电影并从中获得情感，而无需了解它在历史中的角色，这意味着电影本身有一些内在的价值，等等。

Is the implication there that if you didn’t know the role in history of Michelangelo’s David, or whatever, you would look at it and go, “That’s just a guy.” Do you think there’s no intrinsic something to that thing?

这是否意味着，如果你不知道米开朗基罗的大卫在历史上的角色，或者其他什么，你会看着它然后说，“那只是一个人。”你认为那东西没有内在的东西吗？

There’s some, but if I didn’t understand Christianity, Florence, the Renaissance, I think it would lose more than half its value.

有一些，但如果我不了解基督教、佛罗伦萨、文艺复兴，我认为它会失去一半以上的价值。

Which artistic mediums is that true for you, and which ones isn’t it?

哪些艺术媒介适合您，哪些不适合？

Like music —

喜欢音乐 —

Abstract music — the role in history is not that important in most cases.

抽象音乐 ——在大多数情况下，它在历史中的作用并不那么重要。

It’s more of a supplement to you.

更多的是对你的补充。

It makes it more fun to learn about.

它让学习变得更加有趣。

If you know that Mozart was in the place with these people and were .

如果你知道莫扎特曾经和这些人在一起。

.

。

.

。

If you understand all of that stuff, it’s fun.

如果您了解所有这些内容，那就很有趣。

That’s 10 percent of the value, but not that much.

这是价值的 10%，但也不是那么多。

Is it 10 percent .

是 10% 吗？

.

。

.

。

Is it the same type of value to you?

这对你来说是同一类型的价值吗？

Or is it just a separate thing to know —

或者这只是一个需要知道的单独的事情 ——

Separate thing.

分开的事。

With opera, the role in history becomes important again.

歌剧在历史中的作用再次变得重要。

You hear Don Giovanni.

你听到唐璜。

You know about Romanticism, the Enlightenment, Casanova.

你知道浪漫主义、启蒙运动、卡萨诺瓦。

It all makes much more sense, and it’s funnier.

这一切都更有意义，也更有趣。

Yes.

是的。

I think maybe that’s one disagreement.

我想这也许是一种分歧。

I think that most — well, not most — I don’t know.

我认为大多数 ——好吧，不是大多数—— 我不知道。

It’s just weird to me because there isn’t a real delineation between art, really.

这对我来说很奇怪，因为艺术之间并没有真正的界限。

All of it is just a mix of stuff that is interacting with us, and we bring ourselves to it, and it has a role in history and all this stuff mixes together, right?

所有这些只是与我们互动的东西的混合体，我们把自己带入其中，它在历史中发挥着作用，所有这些东西混合在一起，对吗？

These artworks are in dialogue with each other, as games can be.

这些艺术品相互对话，就像游戏一样。

If you know Rodin, Brancusi makes much more sense.

如果你了解罗丹，布朗库西就更有意义了。

If you know that Jesus is supposed to be the son of God, La Pietà makes much more sense.

如果你知道耶稣应该是上帝的儿子，那么《圣母怜子图》就更有意义了。

Right, but is it all the same thing?

是的，但是都是一样的吗？

Can you go to a sculpture garden and if you know nothing about any of it, is it just all rocks to you?

你能去一个雕塑花园，如果你对它一无所知，那对你来说只是石头吗？

Is it just all a bunch of clay?

难道只是一堆粘土吗？

I appreciate Chinese art considerably less.

我对中国艺术的欣赏要少得多。

I’m not sure that it’s worse, but I just know less about it.

我不确定情况是否更糟，但我只是了解得更少。

Yes.

是的。

But if you didn’t know, if we blindfolded you and brought you to a place that was full, and we just got a bunch of random sculptures, you would walk around, and you would not energetically just feel that same thing that you do —

但如果你不知道，如果我们蒙住你的眼睛，带你到一个挤满了人的地方，我们只是得到一堆随机的雕塑，你会四处走动，而你不会精力充沛地感受到你所做的同样的事情 -

Well, I have all the background knowledge.

嗯，我有所有的背景知识。

I know everything that’s happened up until now.

我知道到目前为止发生的一切。

Not literally everything but —

并不是所有的事情，但是 ——

Okay, AI generates a bunch of new sculptures and we put you in a place with them.

好吧，人工智能生成了一堆新的雕塑，我们把你放在和它们在一起的地方。

Do they mean nothing to you then?

那么它们对你来说就毫无意义了吗？

Much, much less, probably.

可能少得多、少得多。

That’s really interesting to me.

这对我来说真的很有趣。

Yes, but that’s a test we’re going to run, right?

是的，但这是我们要进行的测试，对吧？

Yes, I guess so.

是的，我想是的。

It probably will turn out that .

结果可能会是这样。

.

。

.

。

because we can barely tell the difference.

因为我们几乎无法区分。

This is one of the funny things about AI art.

这是人工智能艺术的有趣之处之一。

We always do this thing where it’s like, “Well, I’ll be able to tell if it’s made by a human.” It’s like you definitely won’t.

我们做这件事时总是会说，“好吧，我就能辨别它是否是人类制造的。”说得好像你绝对不会一样。

No, I won’t.

不，我不会。

No one will because we can’t even tell now.

没有人会知道，因为我们现在甚至无法判断。

The amount of times that you have conversations with people and they go, “This was .

当你与人们交谈时，他们会说“这是。”的次数。

.

。

.” Mozart’s a great example of this.

”。莫扎特就是一个很好的例子。

I can’t get into that conversation because I don’t actually know that much, but my dad — he knows all the classical music and has all those books and reads all the things, but he was largely motivated by money.

我无法参与那个对话，因为我实际上知道的不多，但我的父亲 ——他了解所有古典音乐，拥有所有这些书籍并阅读所有内容，但他很大程度上是出于金钱的动机。

Yes, that was a big part of his motivation.

是的，这是他动力的重要组成部分。

That’s a glitch.

这是一个小故障。

There you go.

就这样吧。

I’m a simulation.

我是模拟人

Now, when you see glitches in games, do you think there were small details or habits — or you could call them glitches — in your life or in your workflow that reflect you the way you could make sense of the game by talking about the infrastructure?

现在，当您看到游戏中的故障时，您是否认为您的生活或工作流程中存在一些小细节或习惯 （或者您可以称之为故障 ） 反映了您通过谈论基础设施来理解游戏的方式？

Give me an example or some sort of clarification.

给我一个例子或某种澄清。

Every time you work to make a video of a certain kind, you stumble on a certain part of the work for some reason.

每次你制作某种类型的视频时，你都会因为某种原因偶然发现作品的某个部分。

When I do introductions of guests, the one part of the podcast I have to redo sometimes is the very first two or three sentences.

当我介绍嘉宾时，有时我必须重做播客的一部分是前两三句话。

That’s a Tyler Cowen glitch.

这是泰勒·考恩的一个小故障。

The listeners don’t hear it because we redo it, but the sentences in the middle, I don’t screw up the same way.

听众听不到它，因为我们重做了，但中间的句子，我不会以同样的方式搞砸。

Do you have glitches of your infrastructure?

您的基础设施有故障吗？

And what do they reveal about you?

他们透露了你的哪些信息？

I’m not entirely sure that I’m understanding the question fully in terms of what’s the difference between a glitch and just a mistake, or are you just asking me what mistakes I make?

我不确定我是否完全理解这个问题，即小故障和错误之间有什么区别，或者您只是问我犯了什么错误？

But I do love this thing you’ve brought up on a separate point, and I’m going to follow this for a second, which is, isn’t it funny that you don’t mess up any of this?

但我确实喜欢你在一个单独的观点上提出的这件事，我将继续关注这一点，也就是说，你没有搞砸这一切，这不是很有趣吗？

No matter what happens, none of it gets .

无论发生什么，都不会得到。

.

。

.

。

When’s the last time you had to talk to someone and go, “I messed that up in the middle of the show.

你最后一次不得不和某人交谈然后离开是什么时候，“我在演出进行到一半的时候把事情搞砸了。

Take it out.” It is interesting to me that no matter what happens, all of this goes right, but the intro sometimes doesn’t.

把它拿出来。”对我来说有趣的是，无论发生什么，所有这些都进展顺利，但简介有时却不然。

I don’t really know what that’s about.

我真的不知道那是怎么回事。

Something about being warmed up maybe, or less self-conscious.

也许是因为热身，或者不那么难为情。

You’re too much in control at the beginning of the show.

在节目开始时你的控制力太强了。

You have your little speech pseudo-memorized.

你的小演讲已经被伪记了。

That’s a bad place to be.

那是一个糟糕的地方。

You feel if it’s actually spontaneous, you’ll sound like an idiot.

你觉得如果这真的是自发的，你听起来就像个白痴。

Maybe you will.

也许你会的。

I guess that’s it.

我想就是这样。

This is improvising.

这是即兴发挥。

Right.

正确的。

The intro was the overture, or whatever.

介绍是序曲，或者其他什么。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

That’s not the right analogy or metaphor, whatever.

无论如何，这不是正确的类比或隐喻。

Isn’t that funny that we can improvise forever and make no mistakes, but as soon as you try to put it on paper .

我们可以永远即兴创作并且不犯任何错误，但一旦你尝试把它写在纸上，这不是很有趣吗？

.

。

.

。

Anyway, that’s a separate point.

无论如何，这是一个单独的观点。

I don’t know that I would have a good answer to the question about what glitches are in my production or in the way that I approach things.

我不知道我能否很好地回答关于我的作品中存在哪些问题或我处理事情的方式存在哪些问题的问题。

I’m not totally sure I followed where the question was coming from.

我不太确定我是否明白了这个问题的来源。

I have favorite infrastructure.

我有最喜欢的基础设施。

For me, it would be bridges, ports, and harbors.

对我来说，那就是桥梁、港口和海港。

Do you have favorite infrastructure?

您有最喜欢的基础设施吗？

Definitely.

确实。

I’m a big fan of .

我是的忠实粉丝。

.

。

.

。

Oh, man, bridges are really good.

哦，伙计，桥梁真的很棒。

Bridges, ports, harbors.

桥梁、港口、海港。

Roads are good.

道路状况良好。

Actually, no, it’s the stuff we don’t see.

事实上，不，这是我们看不到的东西。

Sewage is pretty crazy to me.

污水对我来说太疯狂了。

That we’ve managed to take care of all of that is pretty wild.

我们已经成功地解决了所有这些问题，这真是太疯狂了。

Energy infrastructure is really fascinating to me.

能源基础设施对我来说真的很有吸引力。

I love wind power turbines.

我喜欢风力涡轮机。

Wind power turbines are scary, but I respect your opinion.

风力涡轮机很可怕，但我尊重你的意见。

Nuclear power plants are awesome.

核电站很棒。

Really, really cool.

真的，真的很酷。

Agreed.

同意。

We should have more.

我们应该有更多。

That’s not a policy thing.

这不是政策问题。

I think they’re neat.

我认为它们很整洁。

We should build them for the aesthetics, honestly.

老实说，我们应该为了美观而建造它们。

We should just build those towers.

我们应该建造那些塔。

Forget about the —

忘记 ——

You don’t need the power.

你不需要电源。

Just build the thing.

只是建造这个东西。

That’s why it’s an artwork.

这就是为什么它是一件艺术品。

Yes, I agree.

是的，我同意。

You have to put in some kind of steam thing because you want to see the steam coming out of it, but just generate steam for no reason.

你必须放入某种蒸汽的东西，因为你想看到蒸汽从里面出来，但只是无缘无故地产生蒸汽。

Don’t put any fans in or any spinning turbines or anything.

不要放入任何风扇或任何旋转的涡轮机或任何东西。

Just have them.

只需拥有它们即可。

We would have historical context like with the sculptures, right?

我们会有像雕塑一样的历史背景，对吧？

Right, yes.

对，是的。

We know what nuclear power is.

我们知道核能是什么。

We’ll be scared of it.

我们会害怕它。

“Whoa.

“哇哦。

It’s nuclear power here.”

这里是核能。”

If we brought a baby, and we raised them in a box, and then when they’re 18, we brought them out and showed it to them, I bet they would love it without any historical context.

如果我们带一个婴儿，把他们放在盒子里养大，然后当他们18岁的时候，我们把他们带出来给他们看，我敢打赌，即使没有任何历史背景，他们也会喜欢它。

They would love it less than you, would be my claim.

我的说法是，他们对它的喜爱程度不及你。

AUSTIN: Everyone loves it less than me.

奥斯汀：每个人都不如我那么喜欢它。

I think it’s the problem.

我认为这就是问题所在。

I’m not sure I love it less than you.

我不确定我对它的爱程度不及你。

The nuclear this, the thing, whatever that’s called, the cooling tower — holy smokes.

核这个东西，不管叫什么，冷却塔 ——神圣的烟雾。

When I first went to Germany and I saw all their nuclear plants — this is way before they closed them down — I was thrilled.

当我第一次去德国时，我看到了他们所有的核电站 ——“这是在他们关闭它们之前”—— 我很激动。

Did they close them down, all of them?

他们全部关闭了吗？

Well, it’s in the midst.

嗯，它就在中间。

Everyone got scared?

大家都被吓到了吗？

Now the new government is talking about rebooting them, which would be wonderful for multiple reasons.

现在新政府正在讨论重启它们，出于多种原因，这将是一件好事。

Is this true, that they’re going to make more because of AI?

他们会因为人工智能而赚更多钱，这是真的吗？

They’re trying —

他们正在尝试 —

People are like, “We need more power.”

人们会说，“我们需要更多的力量。”

Correct.

正确的。

We’re going to suck up all the coal too fast.

我们会太快地吸收所有的煤炭。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

That’s good.

那挺好的。

So you can have enough tokens at low enough price to create your billion movies.

因此，您可以以足够低的价格拥有足够的代币来制作数十亿部电影。

If that’s what it takes to get us on a nuclear power, I’ll be a happy camper.

如果这就是让我们拥有核电所需要的，我将是一个快乐的露营者。

For the aesthetics, obviously.

显然，为了美观。

COWEN: What other reason could there be for anything?

COWEN：还有什么其他原因呢？

Yes, everything else is not that important.

是的，其他一切都不是那么重要。

How much better will games get than today, say over the next 20 years?

比如说在未来 20 年里，游戏会比现在好多少？

None.

没有任何。

No better.

没有更好的了。

This is a huge pet peeve of mine.

这是我的一大烦恼。

They’re going to get worse?

他们会变得更糟吗？

No, they’re going to stay the same.

不，他们会保持不变。

This is art, right?

这就是艺术，对吧？

What art has actually gotten .

艺术实际上得到了什么。

.

。

.

。

All right, let me back up.

好吧，让我备份一下。

Painting gets better from before Giotto through whenever.

从乔托之前到任何时候，绘画都变得更好。

Well, you know more about painting than me, so I can talk to you about video games and maybe some other stuff.

好吧，你比我更了解绘画，所以我可以和你谈谈电子游戏，也许还有其他一些东西。

It does seem to be the case that there’s a nascent period for any artistic medium in which we’re figuring out the very basic tools.

似乎任何艺术媒介都有一个新生期，我们正在寻找非常基本的工具。

I don’t know that I’m convinced that once that has resolved itself, art gets qualitatively better.

我不知道我是否相信一旦这个问题得到解决，艺术的质量就会变得更好。

Are we creating canonical games at the rate we used to?

我们是否仍以过去的速度创造经典游戏？

Many people tell me no.

很多人告诉我不。

Oh, this is one of the things I wanted to get angry with you about.

哦，这是我想对你生气的事情之一。

You said, “Many people .

你说：“很多人。

.

。

.” You did that thing where they go, “Many people are saying .

”。你在他们去的地方做了那件事，“很多人都在说。

.

。

.” But I trust you.

”。但我相信你。

I’m sure this is correct, and you could provide specific examples.

我确信这是正确的，你可以提供具体的例子。

You were like, “We’re not making seminal games at the rate we used to.” Just out of curiosity, when people tell you that, what games do they bring up as, “These are the games we used to have that we don’t have now”?

你会说，“我们不再像以前那样制作具有开创性的游戏了。”出于好奇，当人们告诉你这些时，他们会提到哪些游戏，“这些是我们以前有但现在没有的游戏”？

Because I do totally disagree with this.

因为我完全不同意这一点。

No, we still have them now, but it seems the best-known games now have a bit of age on them.

不，我们现在仍然拥有它们，但最著名的游戏现在似乎已经有点过时了。

The demand for gaming is down since the pandemic.

自大流行以来，游戏需求下降。

They’re not getting better.

他们并没有好转。

Well, that’s a whole separate conversation.

嗯，这是一个完全独立的对话。

The demand for game is down since the pandemic.

自大流行以来，对游戏的需求有所下降。

We’ll put a pin in that, and we’ll come back to the seminal conversation because I kind of disagree with that.

我们会对此进行固定，然后我们会回到开创性的对话，因为我有点不同意这一点。

There are numbers, and I know there’s the data to back it up, and there’s that big article that just came out with all of the gaming-is-dying thing.

有数字，而且我知道有数据支持它，而且刚刚发表了一篇关于游戏正在消亡的大文章。

No, it’s not dying, but —

不，不是死，而是 ——

Yes, right, but that’s what they titled it.

是的，没错，但这就是他们的标题。

It’s just, whatever.

只是，无论如何。

What do you think is the normal cadence of seminal .

您认为开创性的正常节奏是多少？

.

。

.

。

Oh, how about this?

哦，这个怎么样？

Would you agree that the same feels true for books now, for novels or whatever, that we have the perception of there being not as many tent-pole seminal kind of game-changing experiences as we used to.

你是否同意，对于现在的书籍、小说或其他什么东西来说，同样的感觉也是如此，我们认为，不再像过去那样有那么多具有影响力的、改变游戏规则的体验。

I think rock ’n’ roll and painting are easier examples.

我认为摇滚乐和绘画是更简单的例子。

Rock ’n’ roll maybe is at a peak of new creation in the ’60s and ’70s.

摇滚乐可能在 60 年代和 70 年代正处于新创作的顶峰。

There’s still plenty of good material.

还是有很多好素​​材的。

The old music is with us for free.

古老的音乐免费与我们同在。

It’s a great world to live in.

这是一个美好的世界。

But say, the difference of music from 1966 to 1968 is unbelievable and immediately noticeable.

但是，1966 年到 1968 年的音乐差异令人难以置信，而且立即引人注目。

Music over a 10-year period today sounds more or less the same, in a way it didn’t back then, and that’s a shift.

如今十年间的音乐听起来或多或少是一样的，但在某种程度上却与当时不同，这就是一种转变。

Is there any kind of comparable shift in gaming?

游戏领域是否存在类似的转变？

Well, there’re more games than there have ever been, and there’s more music than there’s ever been.

嗯，游戏比以往任何时候都多，音乐也比以往任何时候都多。

Right.

正确的。

I guess what we’re really discussing then is, whatever this cultural filter is, is latching onto things that aren’t as interesting.

我想我们真正讨论的是，无论这种文化过滤器是什么，都是抓住那些不那么有趣的东西。

I don’t even know if that’s true because if you think about anytime there’s a shift — ah, and there’re just so many.

我什至不知道这是否属实，因为如果你想想任何时候都会有转变 —— 啊，而且转变的次数实在是太多了。

Do you have specific examples, out of curiosity, that people have told you, and you don’t have to, it doesn’t matter, but do you have any where it’s like, “Well, the last great game that came out was X and that was this many years ago.”

你是否有具体的例子，出于好奇，人们告诉过你，你不必这样做，这并不重要，但你是否有任何类似的例子，“好吧，最后一款伟大的游戏是 X，那是很多年前的事了。”

Something like Grand Theft Auto.

类似于侠盗猎车手之类的东西。

I don’t know exactly how many years ago it was, but it’s quite focal and seminal.

我不知道具体是多少年前的事了，但它非常具有焦点和影响力。

It’s a while ago at this point.

此时已经是不久前的事了。

How far back would I have to name a game for you to agree that .

我得为一款游戏命名多久才能让你同意这一点。

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。

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How many years ago would be too long?

多少年前会太久远？

If I said Minecraft, which is unbelievable, both a cultural phenomenon but also an impactful piece of media.

如果我说《我的世界》，它令人难以置信，它既是一种文化现象，也是一种有影响力的媒体。

It’s just such a stunning .

这真是太令人惊叹了。

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。

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。

It just blew open the entire way that we thought about what we could do with making video games.

它完全开启了我们关于制作视频游戏可以做什么的整个思考方式。

That came out in 2014, ’11.

那是在 2014 年，’11 发布的。

It kind of depends on when people release their games or whatever.

这在某种程度上取决于人们何时发布游戏或其他什么。

Sure, but that’s a long time ago now.

当然，但那是很久以前的事了。

That qualifies as a long time ago.

这可以说是很久以前的事了。

If I’m naming a game that I think would qualify, I understand that there’s a difference between me going, “Well, there was this little indie game that I just thought was so great.” We’re talking about impact, shifting of things.

如果我命名一款我认为符合资格的游戏，我知道我会说：“嗯，有一款我认为非常棒的小型独立游戏。”我们谈论的是影响和事物的转变。

If we were to talk about a game like The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild that came out in 2017 — also did the same thing, completely revolutionized it.

如果我们谈论像 2017 年推出的《塞尔达传说：旷野之息》这样的游戏，也做了同样的事情，彻底改变了它。

That’s now eight years, et cetera, right?

现在已经八年了，等等，对吧？

Also, a long time ago.

还有，很久以前的事了。

I’m reporting this secondhand, but people tell me that if you graphed the distribution, it would not be a flat line.

我是二手报告，但人们告诉我，如果你绘制分布图，它就不会是一条平坦的线。

It would show decline.

它将显示下降。

Well, tell them to do it, and then I’ll look at the graph and we’ll see.

好吧，告诉他们这样做，然后我会看看图表，我们就会明白。

Okay.

好的。

There’s still so much .

还有这么多。

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。

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。

because this is going into the conversation about gaming is in some sort of decline.

因为这涉及到关于游戏的讨论正在某种程度的下降。

There’s gaming in the way that I think of it, which is not even a good way to call it, but the types of people like me who love video games and they play video games and they’ll play games that .

我认为游戏是这样的，这甚至不是一个好的称呼，但像我这样热爱电子游戏的人，他们玩电子游戏，他们也会玩电子游戏。

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AUSTIN: There’s a similarity in that the medium is, maybe, let’s call it football and improv theater or something.

奥斯汀：有一个相似之处，那就是媒介，也许，我们可以称之为足球和即兴戏剧之类的。

These things kind of are the same in that it’s people using their physical bodies to do some kind of performance — again, rope — that we watch and then we enjoy and get some enjoyment out of.

这些事情有点相同，因为人们用他们的身体来做某种表演——再次，绳索——我们观看，然后我们享受并从中获得一些乐趣。

But the video game, when you look at all the graphs — I know everything’s collapsing now — it’s almost entirely from these gigantic, what we would call AAA games that were obviously in a bubble and have been for 10 to 15 years.

但是电子游戏，当你看所有的图表时 ——我知道现在一切都在崩溃 ——它几乎完全来自这些巨大的、我们称之为 AAA 级的游戏，这些游戏显然处于泡沫之中，并且已经存在了 10 到 15 年。

Could you imagine a future where the Mishnah or the commentary on the games becomes bigger than the games themselves?

你能想象未来密西拿或游戏评论会变得比游戏本身更重要吗？

What you do is, in fact, ultimately the primary.

事实上，你所做的最终才是首要的。

I saw a tweet from a guy.

我看到一个人发的一条推文。

He said something like, “Well, I just spent six hours listening to NBA podcasts, but I didn’t turn on a game all week.”

他说，“好吧，我只是花了六个小时听 NBA 播客，但我整个星期都没有打开比赛。”

Right.

正确的。

Yes, we’re there, aren’t we?

是的，我们就在那里，不是吗？

We’re there.

我们就在那里。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

You tell me.

你告诉我。

I feel like that’s probably true.

我觉得这可能是真的。

Again, that comes back to barrier to entry, right?

这又回到了进入壁垒，对吧？

Is that what’s easier?

这样比较容易吗？

There’re a lot of people who watch people play games and have never played a game in their life.

有很多人看着别人玩游戏，但他们一生中从未玩过游戏。

We’re probably there, would be my guess.

我猜我们可能就在那儿。

Thank goodness for me, but I don’t know what that says about .

谢天谢地，但我不知道那是什么意思。

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。

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。

In fact, I don’t even think it says anything.

In fact, I don’t even think it says anything.

We’re making this up as we go right now.

We’re making this up as we go right now.

We’re exploring this idea live, on the spot.

我们正在现场探索这个想法。

Does that say anything about the state of games, the state of the NBA?

这是否说明了比赛的状况、NBA 的状况？

I don’t think so.

我不这么认为。

I think it probably just says —

我想它可能只是说 ——

It says NBA games are too long and have too many free throws, fouls, and commercial breaks.

据说NBA比赛时间太长，罚球、犯规和商业广告太多。

That might be true.

这可能是真的。

It’s funny because I didn’t watch any basketball until two years ago.

这很有趣，因为直到两年前我才看篮球。

I started watching, and I was like, “This is so fun, so great.” All that’s over my head.

我开始观看，我想，“这太有趣了，太棒了。”这一切都在我的脑海里。

You are the Pelicans, right?

你们是鹈鹕队，对吧？

We are the Pelicans down in New Orleans, yes.

是的，我们是新奥尔良的鹈鹕队。

Remember, I’m originally from Minneapolis, so the Timberwolves, and we did quite well a year or two ago.

请记住，我来自明尼阿波利斯，森林狼队，我们在一两年前表现得很好。

I’m very much a fair-weather fan when it comes to most sports.

对于大多数运动，我都是一个非常喜欢公平天气的人。

I try to optimize for the most fun.

我尝试优化以获得最大的乐趣。

I try to catch the wave, as it were, but I don’t think that necessarily says anything about .

可以说，我试图抓住浪潮，但我认为这不一定说明什么。

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That was a pithy comment, but do you think that it actually does say something about the state of the game that the NBA podcasts are taking up more of the time than the games themselves?

这是一个精辟的评论，但你认为它确实说明了 NBA 播客占用的时间比比赛本身还多的情况吗？

I think the median game is not that good, and that’s why, yes.

我认为中位数游戏不太好，这就是原因，是的。

That didn’t use to be the case?

过去并非如此？

It’s more the case now.

现在更是如此。

Too many 3-point shots.

三分球投篮次数太多了。

I’m not sure why, but there’re too many games.

我不知道为什么，但是游戏太多了。

It’s decided too early.

决定得太早了。

It’s just a lot that can go wrong.

只是很多事情都可能出错。

The star player isn’t available.

明星球员不可用。

Somehow, there’s some fraying at the edges through a number of different channels.

不知何故，通过许多不同的渠道，边缘出现了一些磨损。

Is this inevitable for any sport that gets popular?

对于任何流行的运动来说，这是不可避免的吗？

Well, there’s regression toward the mean in many processes.

嗯，在许多过程中都会出现均值回归。

I don’t know if inevitable is exactly right, but it’s likely.

我不知道不可避免是否完全正确，但很可能。

Football, people complain about.

足球，人们抱怨。

It sounds like you mostly know basketball though.

听起来你最懂篮球。

I mostly know basketball.

我主要了解篮球。

People have the same type of thing.

人们都有相同类型的东西。

We’re already there, for sure.

当然，我们已经在那里了。

Commentary is bigger than the product.

评论比产品更重要。

It probably doesn’t make more money, but it’s —

它可能不会赚更多钱，但它 -

There’s more diversity of commentary, right?

评论更加多样化，对吗？

Lower fixed costs.

降低固定成本。

If someone likes you, they listen to you.

如果有人喜欢你，他们就会听你的。

There’re more commentators than games.

解说员比比赛还多。

There are more commentators than games.

解说员比比赛还多。

I don’t know if I would say there’s more diversity in the commentary.

我不知道我是否会说评论更加多样化。

The value system of the people who do commentary — this is part of one of the things that I really would like to shift because I make these videos, infrastructure, blah-blah-blah, but there’s an underlying thing that I’m trying to get through with regards to the way that we think about and talk about video games.

评论者的价值体系 ——这是我真正想要改变的事情之一，因为我制作了这些视频、基础设施等等，但我正在努力解决一个关于我们思考和谈论视频游戏的方式的潜在问题。

Do you blame the algorithm for what you’re complaining about?

您是否将所抱怨的事情归咎于算法？

No, it’s all —

不，都是这样 ——

If it’s as powerful as you say, how can you not blame the algorithm?

如果真像你说的那么强大，怎么能不怪算法呢？

Well, the algorithm’s really good at giving people what they want to watch.

嗯，该算法确实很擅长为人们提供他们想看的内容。

So, this must be what people want to watch.

所以，这一定是人们想看的。

You’re exactly maybe correct, but it takes one pioneering gentleman to change the landscape.

也许你是对的，但需要一位开拓性的绅士才能改变现状。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

That is my goal, though.

不过，这就是我的目标。

It really is my goal.

这确实是我的目标。

I want to show people that it’s not inherent that you have to think about video games in these terms, which is overly technical, extremely focused on narrative.

我想向人们表明，你必须用这些术语来思考视频游戏，这并不是固有的，这过于技术化，极其注重叙事。

There’s so much comparative analysis.

对比分析实在是太多了。

Nobody can get through a video game review without saying it’s like this game plus this game.

没有人能在不说就像这个游戏加上这个游戏的情况下完成视频游戏评论。

Stop.

停止。

We don’t need to be doing that.

我们不需要这样做。

It’s really not that important.

这确实没那么重要。

Are you bullish on virtual reality as the future for video games?

您是否看好虚拟现实作为视频游戏的未来？

Or is immersion a negative?

或者沉浸感是负面的吗？

Well, here’s a really funny thing, Tyler.

好吧，这是一件非常有趣的事情，泰勒。

There’s a video game called Resident Evil 4.

有一款电子游戏叫《生化危机 4》。

It’s a really wonderful video game.

这是一款非常棒的视频游戏。

You go through and you shoot a bunch of people, and it’s great.

你穿过并射杀了一群人，这很棒。

It’s chainsaws and zombies and all sorts of things.

有电锯、僵尸和各种各样的东西。

It came out in 2002 on the Nintendo GameCube.

它于 2002 年在任天堂 GameCube 上发布。

I played through it in 2007 on the Nintendo Wii.

我于 2007 年在任天堂 Wii 上玩过它。

It was re-released on the Nintendo Wii.

它在任天堂 Wii 上重新发布。

I had a great time.

我玩得很开心。

As a YouTuber, do you think we’re moving toward a more oral culture?

作为 YouTuber，您认为我们正在走向口头文化吗？

The reach of YouTube is incredible, right?

YouTube 的影响力令人难以置信，对吧？

You know this.

你知道这一点。

Podcasts probably would make me think that more, but yes, YouTube, sure, in the sense of people don’t like to read now.

播客可能会让我思考更多，但是是的，YouTube，当然，从人们现在不喜欢阅读的意义上来说。

If I’m trying to get an idea across — I’m sure you’ve experienced this as well — you can write stuff, but if you talk stuff, people do tend to listen more.

如果我想表达一个想法 —— 我相信你也经历过这种情况 —— 你可以写东西，但如果你说东西，人们确实会倾向于听更多。

Now, your videos are highly analytic, but a lot of chatter is not.

现在，您的视频具有高度分析性，但很多聊天内容却没有。

Are you worried that by moving away from a culture of print, we’re going to become less analytic and more blah-blah-blah and just tell tales?

你是否担心，随着远离印刷文化，我们会变得不那么善于分析，而变得更加胡言乱语，只会讲故事？

Not inherently.

不是天生的。

I would probably flip cause and symptom around in that sense, but maybe not.

我可能会从这个意义上颠倒原因和症状，但也许不会。

Everything is a snake-eating-its-own-tail thing.

一切都是蛇吃自己尾巴的事情。

If we become less of that culture, we will then have less of that stuff, and then have less of the culture and less of the stuff.

如果我们对这种文化的了解越来越少，那么我们对这种文化的了解就会减少，对这种文化的了解也会越来越少。

It probably goes in that way.

事情大概就是这样。

That ultimately falls upon the people to choose to think, to choose to use their brains.

这最终取决于人们选择思考、选择使用他们的大脑。

Last three questions.

最后三个问题。

First, what’s the best food in New Orleans?

首先，新奥尔良最好的食物是什么？

Well, boy, a place or type?

好吧，男孩，一个地方或类型？

Whatever is the useful information you can communicate to us analytically.

无论什么有用的信息，您都可以通过分析传达给我们。

Here’s what I can tell the people.

这是我可以告诉人们的。

I don’t know where I’m looking.

我不知道我在看哪里。

New Orleans is very good at New Orleans foods.

新奥尔良的新奥尔良美食非常出色。

If you want to eat gumbo, if you want to eat jambalaya, if you want to eat crawfish, New Orleans is the way to go.

如果您想吃浓汤、什锦饭、小龙虾，新奥尔良就是您的最佳选择。

If you don’t want to eat that food, if you want to have Thai food, burritos, Chinese food, whatever else, it’s not very good.

如果你不想吃那个食物，如果你想吃泰国菜、卷饼、中国菜什么的，那都不太好。

Next question.

下一个问题。

Speaking honestly, what makes you a great YouTuber?

老实说，是什么让您成为一名出色的 YouTuber？

Speaking honestly, all right.

老实说，好吧。

We know you work hard.

我们知道你工作很努力。

We know you’re smart, yes, yes, but what’s the secret sauce?

我们知道你很聪明，是的，是的，但是秘诀是什么？

Well, I don’t think I should know that.

好吧，我认为我不应该知道这一点。

I think, honestly, the less I know about .

老实说，我认为我了解的越来越少。

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。

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。

I think all I should have in my head is, “This video that I’m making right now is going to be the best video I could possibly make.” And that’s all I should think.

我想我脑子里应该有这样的想法：“我现在正在制作的这个视频将是我能制作的最好的视频。”这就是我应该想的。

The less I understand about my own inner machinations, the better because, number one, I’m going to get it wrong.

我对自己内心的阴谋了解得越少越好，因为，第一，我会犯错。

You see this all the time with artists who learn what their thing is, and they just fly off a cliff.

你经常会在艺术家身上看到这样的情况，他们知道自己的事情是什么，但他们却从悬崖上飞了下来。

They become much worse, right?

他们变得更糟了，对吗？

They become so much worse.

他们变得更糟。

Parodies of themselves.

模仿他们自己。

Exactly.

确切地。

The less you know about how you do what you do, the better.

你对自己如何做事情了解得越少越好。

I might, for my own self-protection, refuse to answer this question.

为了自我保护，我可能会拒绝回答这个问题。

Last question.

最后一个问题。

What topics and ideas do you plan on covering next?

接下来您计划讨论哪些主题和想法？

I think that I’m still really fascinated by the idea of looking at real stuff in video games, but in some sense, I think I’ve shot myself in the foot because now I’ve leaned so far in that direction that, like we were talking about, to me, that’s second-order purpose, and it’s gotten so much .

我认为我仍然对在电子游戏中看到真实的东西的想法很着迷，但从某种意义上说，我想我是搬起石头砸自己的脚，因为现在我已经朝这个方向倾斜了太远了，就像我们所说的，对我来说，这是次要的目的，而且已经变得如此之多。

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。

.

。

because one of my short-term goals is to change the whole way that we think about video games via YouTube.

因为我的短期目标之一是通过 YouTube 改变我们对视频游戏的整体看法。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Something that I thought was really interesting.

我认为非常有趣的事情。

Actually, I have two.

事实上，我有两个。

Well, I have a question and a comment.

嗯，我有一个问题和评论。

You do a lot of interviews with a lot of people.

你对很多人进行了很多采访。

I’ve done nine in the last nine days, I believe, which is a lot.

我相信在过去的九天里我已经做了九件事，这已经很多了。

That feels like too much.

感觉太多了。

I don’t even know how you would prepare for that many.

我什至不知道你会如何为这么多人做好准备。

I guess that’s all you’re doing, but it still seems like a lot of work.

我想这就是你所做的全部，但看起来仍然有很多工作要做。

It’s not all I’m doing.

这不是我所做的全部。

It is a lot of work.

这是一项繁重的工作。

I thought it was really funny, as a side note.

作为旁注，我认为这真的很有趣。

When you read about you, what you learn is, people call you a polymath.

当你读到关于你的故事时，你了解到的是，人们称你为博学者。

I didn’t know that word, but I thought it was really funny.

我不认识这个词，但我觉得这很有趣。

That’s a meaningless term.

这是一个毫无意义的术语。

I was wondering because when you got the AI summary, it called me a polymath, and I had to look it up, and I was like, “I don’t even know what that exactly means.” It’s just someone who knows and does stuff.

我很想知道，因为当你得到人工智能摘要时，它称我为博学者，我必须查一下，我当时想，“我什至不知道这到底意味着什么。”这只是一个知道并做事的人。

Someone who knows five things rather than one or two.

知道五件事而不是一两件事的人。

The polymath.

博学者。

How does math fit into that?

数学如何融入其中？

I don’t know.

我不知道。

There must be a different definition of math that I don’t know.

一定有我不知道的不同的数学定义。

Anyway, that was totally separate.

不管怎样，那是完全分开的。

I think, in general, the people who are successful deserve the success, that the world is more meritocratic than I might have thought when I started doing this.

我认为，总的来说，成功的人应该获得成功，这个世界比我开始这样做时想象的更加精英化。

Also, the best interviews tend to be with people who are not so much in the public eye.

此外，最好的采访往往是与那些不太在公众视野中的人进行。

(A) they’re more willing to say what they think, but it’s also about selection.

(A) 他们更愿意说出自己的想法，但这也与选择有关。

Okay, sure, sure, sure.

好吧，当然，当然，当然。

Those two vehicles would make this true, on average.

平均而言，这两辆车可以实现这一点。

Has there ever been a time where you sat down with someone who did something that you thought was truly exceptional, and they just didn’t have anything to .

有没有这样的时候，你和一个做了你认为真正杰出的事情的人坐下来，而他们只是没有什么可做的。

.

。

.?

.?

Obviously, without naming names.

显然，不点名。

Oh, of course.

哦，当然。

That’s always just weird to me, that someone would, off the cuff, be less capable or just not even seem to understand their own work in the same way that you do, or something like that.

这对我来说总是很奇怪，有人会即兴发挥，能力较差，或者甚至似乎不像你那样理解自己的工作，或者类似的事情。

I just thought it was interesting.

我只是觉得这很有趣。

There’re a lot of people, and I don’t necessarily even have them on the show, but I know them, and they’re remarkable for their persistence and their ability to understand one thing and just drive on that and attract others, but they’re not actually that interesting.

有很多人，我什至不一定让他们出现在节目中，但我认识他们，他们以坚持不懈和理解一件事并继续努力并吸引其他人的能力而著称，但他们实际上并不那么有趣。

A lot of people that way.

很多人都是这样。

That’s hopeful, though, isn’t it?

不过，这还是有希望的，不是吗？

Just the idea that you don’t have to be a very interesting, compelling person to do something truly great.

只是这样的想法：你不必成为一个非常有趣、引人注目的人才能做一些真正伟大的事情。

It’s hopeful for the interesting people because they have a bit of a clear field, right?

对于那些有趣的人来说这是有希望的，因为他们有一个清晰的领域，对吧？

So, it’s hopeful for everyone.

所以，这对每个人来说都是充满希望的。

Yes, they have a better selection, or they can do whatever they want.

是的，他们有更好的选择，或者他们可以做任何他们想做的事。

Then I was curious — you do a lot of interviews with people.

然后我很好奇 —— 你对人们做了很多采访。

There’re a lot, especially, it seems, in the last six months or a year, but I searched Tyler Cowen.

有很多，特别是在过去六个月或一年内，但我搜索了泰勒·考恩。

That’s Irish, I assume.

我想那是爱尔兰语。

Correct.

正确的。

Good guess.

猜得好。

We love that.

我们喜欢这样。

We love Irish.

我们喜欢爱尔兰语。

You’ve done a lot of interviews with a lot of different people in the last, I don’t know, year-ish.

在过去的一年里，我不知道，你对很多不同的人进行了很多采访。

If you search your name and you sort by “Show me everything from the last month,” three or four different interviews have come up.

如果你搜索你的名字并按“显示上个月的所有内容”进行排序，就会出现三到四个不同的采访。

I was curious, why so much?

我很好奇，为什么这么多？

Do you have a philosophy there and a goal?

你有自己的理念和目标吗？

Or is it just because you like to talk?

还是只是因为你喜欢说话？

I like to listen, and I like to talk.

我喜欢听，也喜欢说话。

I like to stay sharp.

我喜欢保持敏锐。

At age 63, it’s important you’re doing something to not degenerate.

63 岁时，做一些事情来避免堕落是很重要的。

Video games —

电子游戏 —

There are many things you can do, right?

你可以做很多事情，对吗？

This is one of them.

这是其中之一。

It’s a way to reach people, and you’re recording who you are for the AIs.

这是一种接触人们的方式，你正在为人工智能记录你是谁。

You’re creating an immortalized — you could even say video game — version of yourself, but other versions of yourself at the same time.

你正在创造一个不朽的 ——你甚至可以说是电子游戏—— 你自己的版本，但同时也是你自己的其他版本。

If you do enough online writing, open access, and podcasts, the AIs will have a not complete picture of you, but a pretty good picture, and you will be more real to them, and they will like you more and take better care of you.

如果你做了足够多的在线写作、开放获取和播客，人工智能会对你有一个不完整的了解，但是一个相当不错的了解，你对他们来说会更真实，他们会更喜欢你，更好地照顾你。

Multiple reasons.

多种原因。

That’s really the reason, the AI thing.

这就是真正的原因，人工智能的事情。

That’s the reason for accelerating.

这就是加速的原因。

It’s not the reason for doing it because I’ve been doing this for eight years, and I meet interesting people.

这不是这样做的原因，因为我已经这样做了八年，并且遇到了有趣的人。

The goal is not to grow your influence with people; it’s to grow with AI because I imagine you’re quite comfortable with the influence you have with human beings.

目标不是增加你对他人的影响力；而是提高你对他人的影响力。与人工智能一起成长，因为我想你对自己对人类的影响感到非常满意。

Well, you always want more, but I like speaking to interesting people, and I get to ask them what I want, right?

嗯，你总是想要更多，但我喜欢和有趣的人交谈，我可以问他们我想要什么，对吧？

“The conversation I want to have” is our motto.

“我想要的对话”是我们的座右铭。

There’s no one who can tell me I can’t do that.

没有人可以告诉我我不能这样做。

Which is a great place to be.

这是一个很棒的地方。

It’s a great place to be.

这是一个很棒的地方。

You’re in the same place.

You’re in the same place.

Really?

真的吗？

Well, yes, that’s true.

嗯，是的，确实如此。

The algorithm, but still.

算法，但仍然。

Well, again, people always say this.

好吧，再说一遍，人们总是这么说。

If you ever talk to someone, and they go, “the algorithm, the algorithm,” replace the word “algorithm” with “audience.” It’s just the audience.

如果你曾经和某人交谈过，他们会说“算法，算法”，请将“算法”一词替换为“观众”。这只是观众。

Of course.

当然。

That’s not always true with every algorithm.

并非所有算法都总是如此。

Some websites are better than others.

有些网站比其他网站更好。

Youtube’s is the best.

YouTube 是最好的。

Not in a serious way.

不是很严重。

No. I don’t game at all.

不，我根本不玩游戏。

Did you ever go to an arcade?

你去过游乐场吗？

Nothing?

没有什么？

Yes, sure, when I was younger.

是的，当然，当我年轻的时候。

But you have no core memory of that.

但你对此没有核心记忆。

Not what you would call real games.

不是你所说的真正的游戏。

Things like Space Invaders.

比如《太空侵略者》之类的。

That’s such a real game.

这真是一场真正的游戏。

Oh, well, we don’t have time for this now.

哦，好吧，我们现在没有时间做这个。

Then you press hyperspace, right?

然后你按超空间，对吧？

That was the key decision.

这是关键的决定。

When do you press hyperspace?

你什么时候按超空间键？

All of those games.

所有这些游戏。

Here’s a new goal.

这是一个新目标。

Put this on the record.

把这件事记录下来。

I want to be at the point where I can make a video about Space Invaders or Pac-Man and have it get a million, 2 million, 5 million views, and have it change the way we think about those because those games are beautiful.

我希望能够制作一个有关《太空侵略者》或《吃豆人》的视频，并让它获得 100 万、200 万、500 万次观看，并让它改变我们对这些游戏的看法，因为这些游戏都很漂亮。

They’re underappreciated.

他们被低估了。

They’re impactful.

他们很有影响力。

They’re meaningful.

它们很有意义。

They tell us about ourselves, and they do it with a hundred lines of code or whatever it is.

他们告诉我们关于我们自己的事情，他们用一百行代码或者其他什么东西来做到这一点。

It’s crazy.

太疯狂了。

I liked Space Invaders much more than Pac-Man.

比起吃豆人，我更喜欢《太空侵略者》。

Something about Pac-Man bothered me.

吃豆人的一些事情让我很困扰。

It felt too mechanical and not strange enough.

感觉太机械了，不够奇怪。

That’s definitely true.

这绝对是真的。

Pac-Man — it feels very easy to go, “Optimize.

吃豆人 — 感觉很容易，“优化。

I’ve optimized it.” Space Invaders is a little bit more, you can find your optimal path through it, but it’s not quite as clear in every moment what the optimal choice necessarily is.

我已经优化了。” 《太空入侵者》的内容更丰富一些，你可以通过它找到最佳路径，但并不是每时每刻都那么清楚最佳选择是什么。

I don’t know if that’s exactly what you’re getting at.

我不知道这是否正是您的意思。

Yes.

是的。

Space Invaders does have that mushiness to it in a way that Pac-Man does not.

《太空侵略者》确实具有吃豆人所没有的那种糊状感。

Both beautiful games, both meaningful, both tell us about the human condition in different ways, and someday, I will show the world that that is true.

这两款游戏都很精彩，都很有意义，都以不同的方式告诉我们人类的处境，有一天，我会向世界证明这是真的。

Any Austin, thank you very much.

任何奥斯汀，非常感谢。

Thank you very much.

非常感谢。