Anna Keay on Historic Architecture, Monarchy, and 17th Century Britain (Ep. 177)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到《与泰勒对话》。
Today I am honored to be here with Anna Keay.
今天我很荣幸能和安娜·凯一起来到这里。
Anna is truly a British institution.
安娜是真正的英国机构。
She is director of Landmark Trust, an architectural historian, historian of the Crown Jewels, an expert in 17th-century history, a TV personality, and I’m a big fan of her latest book, called The Restless Republic: Britain without a Crown.
她是地标信托基金会的董事、建筑历史学家、皇冠珠宝历史学家、17 世纪历史专家、电视名人，我是她最新著作《躁动的共和国：没有王冠的英国》的忠实粉丝。
Anna, welcome.
安娜，欢迎。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Very simple question: What’s the most plausible 17th-century scenario where England remains a republic ongoing?
非常简单的问题：17 世纪英格兰保持共和制状态最合理的情况是什么？
Well, it could easily have happened.
好吧，这很容易发生。
I think a lot of people have forgotten that there was a revolution in the British Isles, and it was a republic for 10 years.
我想很多人都忘记了不列颠群岛曾经发生过一场革命，并且实行了10年的共和制。
The trouble was, really, that this is a classic situation where there was a lot of unhappiness with what had been the case — the monarchy — but the formulation of a stable republic had yet to be worked out.
事实上，问题在于，这是一种典型的情况，人们对过去的情况——“君主制”——有很多不满，但稳定的共和国的构想尚未制定出来。
I think, if Oliver Cromwell had lived longer or named a better successor than his son, Richard, it could have endured.
我认为，如果奥利弗·克伦威尔活得更久，或者任命一个比他的儿子理查德更好的继任者，这种情况可能会持续下去。
Fundamentally, it was before its time, I would say, and it was not sufficiently deeply rooted.
我想说，从根本上说，它还不够成熟，而且还不够深入人心。
Fundamentally, the people didn’t want a republic even though one was brought about.
从根本上来说，即使实现了共和国，人民也不想要一个共和国。
That meant it was always fragile.
这意味着它总是脆弱的。
Would there have been a way, without a crown, to have put a lid on all the religious disputes?
没有王冠，是否有办法制止所有的宗教争端？
Wouldn’t they have just simmered, led to more civil wars and some kind of consolidation into autocratic power?
难道它们不会慢慢酝酿，导致更多的内战和某种形式的专制权力的巩固吗？
And in that sense, there is no counterfactual where the republic just keeps on running.
从这个意义上说，共和国继续运转并不存在反事实。
Well, you could say that.
嗯，你可以这么说。
But of course, there is a kind of counterfactual parallel because in what’s now the Netherlands — what was then called the United Provinces — there had been a revolution, sometimes called the Dutch Revolt, that had happened 100 years earlier in the 1560s, which had both rejected Catholicism and rejected monarchy.
但当然，存在一种反事实的相似之处，因为在现在的荷兰（当时称为联合省），发生了一场革命，有时被称为荷兰起义，发生在 100 年前的 1560 年代，这场革命既拒绝了天主教，也拒绝了君主制。
It became something that was governed by a series of states that had some institution called the States General where their representatives met.
它变成了由一系列州管辖的国家，这些州有一个叫做“州议会”的机构，他们的代表在那里开会。
It wasn’t so much that religious turmoil and republicanism were irreconcilable, but in the case of England, the revolution — the throwing off the monarchy — didn’t have sufficient buy-in from the political nation, let alone the nation as a whole.
宗教动乱和共和主义并不是不可调和的，但就英国而言，革命——推翻君主制——并没有得到政治国家足够的支持，更不用说整个国家了。
It was really brought about by an army coup.
这确实是一场军事政变造成的。
I think that meant it was fragile.
我认为这意味着它很脆弱。
It was also linked to a strong view, held by a minority and very much represented in the army, that a very strictly Puritan regime was what was needed.
它还与少数派和军队中很大一部分人持有的强烈观点有关，即需要一个非常严格的清教徒政权。
I think that was incompatible with a peaceful set of circumstances because it wasn’t widespread enough.
我认为这与和平环境不相容，因为它还不够广泛。
But you’re right, which is, these counterfactual avenues — they take you into so many other what-ifs that it becomes a bit fruitless after a while.
但你是对的，也就是说，这些反事实的途径 ——它们会带你进入许多其他的假设情况，以至于过了一段时间就会变得有点徒劳。
An even simpler question: If the English Civil War of the 1640s wasn’t about having a republic, what exactly was it about?
一个更简单的问题：如果 1640 年代的英国内战不是为了建立一个共和国，那么它到底是为了什么呢？
What’s the stupid answer to that question?
这个问题的愚蠢答案是什么？
Well, yes, not a stupid answer.
嗯，是的，这不是一个愚蠢的答案。
I think the answer is, it was really, in my view, overwhelmingly about religion.
我认为答案是，在我看来，这确实绝大多数与宗教有关。
There’s a historian who works on this period who talks about it and says you shouldn’t think of it as a revolutionary war.
有一位研究这一时期的历史学家在谈到这一时期时说，你不应该将其视为一场革命战争。
It’s really one of the last wars of religion.
这确实是最后的宗教战争之一。
That was the biggest of the issues.
这是最大的问题。
There was a related secondary issue about the extent of royal power.
还有一个相关的次要问题是王权的范围。
That was in the mix, but it wasn’t the first issue.
这是其中的一个问题，但这不是第一个问题。
Really, it was about Charles I, who was the king — who was being fought against by the parliamentarian forces — wanted the Protestant religion of England to be more elaborate, more like Catholicism in terms of the way it was performed in the liturgy, and so on.
事实上，它是关于查理一世的，他是国王——“正在受到议会势力的反对”——希望英格兰的新教更加复杂，在礼拜仪式的执行方式方面更像天主教，等等。
That was something that was anathema to a lot of very committed Protestants in that tension.
在那种紧张气氛下，这对许多非常忠诚的新教徒来说是令人厌恶的。
How much of that was sincere belief, and how much was that simply an arbitrary marker that different interest groups struggling for power fixed upon, and actually, the Civil War is about the interest groups struggling for power?
其中有多少是真诚的信念，有多少只是不同利益集团争夺权力的任意标记，而实际上，内战就是利益集团争夺权力的战争？
Well, it’s an interesting point.
嗯，这是一个有趣的观点。
I think, if you’d ask that question of a lot of historians working a generation or two ago, they would have said it’s all about economic forces.
我认为，如果你问一两代人以前的许多历史学家这个问题，他们会说这全都与经济力量有关。
It’s all about the class struggle, if you like.
如果你愿意的话，这都是关于阶级斗争的。
I don’t think that’s my view.
我不认为这是我的观点。
We live in such a secular age, and I would say in the UK much more so than in the States, where, really, church-going and religious conviction is very much a minority pursuit.
我们生活在一个如此世俗的时代，我想说在英国比在美国更是如此，在美国，去教堂和宗教信仰实际上只是少数人的追求。
To reimagine ourselves or to imagine the world of 17th-century England where religion is such a strong force, it involves a mental leap that I think sometimes people have been reluctant to do.
要重新想象我们自己，或者想象 17 世纪英国的世界，那里的宗教是如此强大的力量，它涉及到一种精神上的飞跃，我认为有时人们不愿意这样做。
Historians working on this period, particularly in the mid-20th century, were really influenced, actually, by Marxist approaches to understanding the past.
研究这一时期、特别是 20 世纪中叶的历史学家实际上确实受到了马克思主义理解过去的方法的影响。
It was all seen as, this is the rise of this class.
所有人都认为，这就是这个阶级的崛起。
This is the mercantile urban strand of society trying to assert authority, to climb the ladder, and so on.
这是城市社会的重商派，试图维护权威、攀登阶梯等等。
I’m just not at all convinced by those arguments myself.
我自己根本不相信这些论点。
I think religion was a very, very strongly held factor in people’s lives.
我认为宗教是人们生活中一个非常非常重要的因素。
You read contemporary diaries and so on, and it really is clear that people felt very strongly that wherever they were on the spectrum between absolutely Calvinist Puritan or a Catholic, in terms of the range that was around at the time, that personal conviction about what was right was really, really a big factor.
你读当代日记等等，很明显，人们强烈地感觉到，无论他们处于绝对加尔文主义清教徒还是天主教徒之间，就当时的范围而言，个人对正确事物的信念确实是一个很大的因素。
I don’t mean that it was the only factor, but to treat it as somehow a cover for other motives is to do a disservice, I think, to the people of the age.
我并不是说这是唯一的因素，但我认为，将其视为其他动机的掩护是对这个时代的人们的伤害。
Given how central the 17th century is, in your mind — including disputes over the Book of Common Prayer, does it go to Scotland, James as an absentee monarch — when you look at the disputes today over Scotland becoming independent, how do you see that differently than, say, someone who doesn’t obsess over the 17th century?
考虑到 17 世纪的重要性，在你的心目中——包括《公祷书》的争议，它是否属于苏格兰，詹姆斯作为缺席君主——当你看到今天关于苏格兰独立的争议时，你与那些不沉迷于 17 世纪的人有何不同的看法？
First of all, I do have to declare an interest because I am a Scot.
首先，我必须申报利益，因为我是苏格兰人。
I was born and brought up in Scotland.
我在苏格兰出生和长大。
But I think that if you’re interested in the 17th century, the additional perhaps emphasis or lens that it gives you is, first of all, the memory of how the union came about in the first place.
但我认为，如果你对 17 世纪感兴趣，它给你的额外的重点或镜头首先可能是关于这个联盟最初是如何产生的记忆。
Great Britain, as a unit, was only, in our historical time depth, a relatively recent creation.
英国作为一个整体，在我们的历史时间深度上只是一个相对较新的产物。
It was there for a long time — 300 years, whatever it was, or is — but of course, what happened was that a sovereign acceded to two kingdoms.
它在那里存在了很长一段时间——“300年，不管它是什么，或者现在是什么——”但是，当然，发生的事情是一个主权者同时加入了两个王国。
This happens quite often historically.
这种情况在历史上经常发生。
It happened quite often with other kingdoms or countries in British history.
英国历史上的其他王国或国家也经常发生这种情况。
William III was the king of Great Britain and Ireland, but he was also the overlord of what’s now the Netherlands.
威廉三世是大不列颠及爱尔兰的国王，但他也是现在荷兰的霸主。
George I was the elector of Hanover.
乔治一世是汉诺威的选帝侯。
None of these things involved a political union.
这些事情都不涉及政治联盟。
They were just two countries that happened to share a sovereign.
他们只是碰巧共享主权的两个国家。
That’s the reason why, of course, although England and Scotland have been part of Great Britain as a political union since 1707, it was never a complete one.
当然，这就是为什么尽管英格兰和苏格兰自 1707 年以来一直是大不列颠政治联盟的一部分，但它从来都不是一个完整的联盟。
The legal systems have always been completely separate, completely distinct, the education systems, much else besides.
法律体系一直是完全独立的、完全不同的，教育体系等等。
Although, personally, I would be very sad to see the end of the union and very sad to see a breaking apart between England and Scotland, if you think about the 17th century, it does really underscore how much independent identity has always been there in those two nations, and how long a history each had before they became a whole.
虽然就我个人而言，看到联合的终结以及英格兰和苏格兰之间的分裂我会感到非常难过，但如果你想想 17 世纪，它确实强调了这两个国家一直存在着多少独立的身份，以及在它们成为一个整体之前各自都有多久的历史。
What did Robert Boyle learn from Sir William Petty?
罗伯特·博伊尔从威廉·佩蒂爵士身上学到了什么？
This is real, like, quick-fire questions.
这是真实的、快速的问题。
What did Robert Boyle learn from Petty?
罗伯特·博伊尔从佩蒂身上学到了什么？
Robert Boyle, obviously, as a young Irish nobleman, was a student of the new science in the 17th century.
罗伯特·博伊尔显然是一位年轻的爱尔兰贵族，也是 17 世纪新科学的学生。
William Petty was also.
威廉·佩蒂也是。
They came from very different backgrounds.
他们来自截然不同的背景。
Robert Boyle had been brought up — he was the son of an Irish nobleman — in great comfort and grandeur in Ireland.
罗伯特·博伊尔（Robert Boyle）——“他是一位爱尔兰贵族的儿子”——在爱尔兰的极大舒适和富丽堂皇的环境中长大。
Silver spoon in his mouth and silks to wear.
嘴里含着银汤匙，身上穿的是丝绸。
William Petty had been born the son of a very poor clothier in a town on the southeast coast of England.
威廉·佩蒂出生于英格兰东南海岸的一个小镇，是一个非常贫穷的服装商的儿子。
They met both in Oxford and in Ireland in the mid-17th century.
他们于 17 世纪中叶在牛津和爱尔兰相遇。
William Petty was an older man, senior to Robert Boyle.
威廉·佩蒂年纪较大，比罗伯特·博伊尔年长。
Robert Boyle came to Oxford as a student in his early 20s, but he was rich and had friends.
罗伯特·博伊尔二十岁出头就读于牛津大学，但他很富有，也有朋友。
William Petty was already a very well-regarded member of the establishment in Oxford University.
威廉·佩蒂已经是牛津大学机构中一位非常受尊敬的成员。
He was the older man in terms of experience and in terms of scientific experimentation, which is what was their great obsession.
就经验和科学实验而言，他是年长的人，这也是他们最痴迷的。
But on the other hand, Robert Boyle was the man with money and with the ability to commission and fund activities and so on.
但另一方面，罗伯特·博伊尔是一个有钱、有能力委托和资助活动等的人。
Robert Boyle learned from William Petty a lot about what was being embarked upon by this group of young men in Oxford in the 1650s, which was utterly revolutionary, really, which was the beginning of what we would regard as proper scientific process and scientific inquiry through experimentation.
罗伯特·波义耳（Robert Boyle）从威廉·佩蒂（William Petty）那里学到了很多关于 1650 年代牛津的这群年轻人所从事的事情，这确实是彻底的革命性的，这是我们认为正确的科学过程和通过实验进行科学探究的开始。
They were a group who would form the Royal Society when it was reformulated in the early 1660s.
1660 年代初皇家学会重组时，他们组成了这个团体。
At William Petty’s rooms on the High Street in Oxford — rooms that still exist — this group of men gathered.
在牛津高街威廉·佩蒂的房间——“仍然存在的房间”——这群人聚集在一起。
Christopher Wren was among them, and they carried out experiments.
克里斯托弗·雷恩就是其中之一，他们进行了实验。
Boyle learned from William Petty all sorts of things about the circulation of the blood, about vacuums, about the different characteristics of the human organs — all sorts of things, because they had these amazing broad areas of inquiry.
波义耳从威廉·佩蒂那里学到了关于血液循环、真空、人体器官的不同特征的各种知识——各种各样的知识，因为它们有这些令人惊奇的广泛的探究领域。
Of course, this is an age where, until now, really, the job of anyone who we would consider to be a scientist in modern terms was to read the works of classical antiquity and to understand what Aristotle, or whoever it was, had said about the nature of the world.
当然，在这个时代，直到现在，任何我们认为是现代科学家的人的工作实际上就是阅读古典著作并理解亚里士多德，或者无论是谁，关于世界本质的说法。
It was a new dawn.
这是一个新的黎明。
Boyle learned from Petty an approach, I suppose, to inquiring and looking for yourself to understand — from how things behaved when you cut them or inflated them or exposed them to light — what the properties of the world were.
我想，博伊尔从佩蒂那里学到了一种方法，去探究和寻找自己来理解 ——“当你切割它们、使它们膨胀或将它们暴露在光线下时，事物会如何表现”—— 世界的属性是什么。
It seems Petty understood Ireland pretty well, and he had some sympathies for Ireland.
看来佩蒂对爱尔兰还是很了解的，对爱尔兰也有一些同情。
If he had been allowed to simply rule Ireland unconstrained, could he have done much better?
如果他被允许不受约束地统治爱尔兰，他会做得更好吗？
Or is the actual problem one that there’s simply no way you can rule Ireland at all without cementing in this external elite, which is then going to lead to trouble?
或者说，真正的问题是，如果不巩固这些外部精英，你根本就无法统治爱尔兰，这会导致麻烦？
Yes.
是的。
William Petty is a scientist and an economist, as we would term it now.
威廉·佩蒂是一位科学家和经济学家，正如我们现在所说的那样。
He went to Ireland as a doctor.
他去爱尔兰当医生。
Because he had this very brilliant brain and analytical scientific mind, he diagnosed what he saw as not so much the problems, but as the nature of Ireland.
因为他拥有非常聪明的大脑和分析性的科学头脑，所以他诊断出的并不是他所看到的问题，而是爱尔兰的本质。
How many people lived there, how many had been dispossessed by the wars and conflict of recent times.
有多少人住在那里，有多少人因近代的战争和冲突而流离失所。
He undertook this remarkable business of mapping Ireland as part of the redistribution of land, which was an extraordinary and horrific undertaking in many ways.
作为土地重新分配的一部分，他承担了绘制爱尔兰地图的这项非凡事业，从很多方面来说，这都是一项非凡而可怕的事业。
But he wasn’t a person who had any experience of governing a place.
但他并不是一个有治理地方经验的人。
He was hopeless with people.
他对人毫无希望。
He was rude and abrasive and direct and would tell them that they were ignorant and absurd, in which he may well have been right.
他粗鲁、粗暴、直接，会告诉他们，他们无知且荒谬，他很可能是对的。
But as we know, in society, governing a place — it doesn’t necessarily work well if you tell .
但我们知道，在社会上，治理一个地方——如果你说出来，不一定能起到很好的作用。
.
。
.
。
So, I don’t think he was temperamentally in any position to be a good governor.
所以，我认为他的性格不适合成为一名优秀的州长。
What he absolutely was, was somebody who saw past — because it didn’t interest him — prejudice and traditional English dislike of the Irish because he was interested in things empirical.
他绝对是一个看到过去的人——“因为他对此不感兴趣”——“英国人对爱尔兰人的偏见和传统的厌恶，因为他对经验的事物感兴趣。”
And he’d also been trained by Catholics, so he didn’t share most English people’s horror of Catholics.
而且他也接受过天主教徒的训练，所以他不像大多数英国人那样对天主教徒感到恐惧。
I think he was well placed to advise on the business of running Ireland.
我认为他非常适合为爱尔兰的治理业务提供建议。
He wouldn’t have been good at doing it himself.
他自己也不太擅长做这件事。
Had Henry Cromwell — to whom he gave this advice, and who had been given the job by his father, Oliver Cromwell, of governing Ireland — had he been given more time to do that, I think it could have been very successful.
如果亨利·克伦威尔（Henry Cromwell）——他向他提出了这个建议，他的父亲奥利弗·克伦威尔（Oliver Cromwell）给了他治理爱尔兰的职位——如果给他更多的时间来做这件事，我认为这可能会非常成功。
But it was very short-lived because when Oliver Cromwell died in 1658, Henry Cromwell lost his position, effectively.
但这是非常短暂的，因为当奥利弗·克伦威尔于 1658 年去世时，亨利·克伦威尔实际上失去了他的职位。
The period of time when Willam Petty and Henry Cromwell were together working on the business of the reconstruction of Ireland was very short.
威廉·佩蒂和亨利·克伦威尔一起致力于爱尔兰重建事业的时间很短。
But I think the evidence is their aspirations — you could found a university, you could make it this great forward-looking nation that could be a model for modernity — could potentially have been very productive.
但我认为证据就是他们的愿望——“你可以建立一所大学，你可以让它成为一个伟大的、具有前瞻性的国家，成为现代性的典范”——“可能会非常富有成效。”
It seems there are some monarchs — they don’t do much in the way of building palaces: Edward VI, Mary, Elizabeth.
似乎有一些君主——他们在建造宫殿方面并没有做太多事情：爱德华六世、玛丽、伊丽莎白。
Is that just random, or is there some systematic political economy reason why some monarchs are building palaces and others aren’t?
这只是随机的，还是有一些系统性的政治经济原因导致一些君主建造宫殿而另一些君主不建造宫殿？
Well, it’s usually a pretty practical reason.
嗯，这通常是一个非常实际的原因。
Well, two.
嗯，两个。
One is to do with money, and one is to do with the scale of your court.
一是和钱有关，一是和你的法庭规模有关。
Henry VIII famously, by the time of his death, had something like 60 palaces.
众所周知，亨利八世去世时，拥有大约 60 座宫殿。
That was partly funded, of course, by the dissolution of the monasteries, which involved the state raking in huge amounts of money, which meant you could build and acquire on a huge scale.
当然，这部分资金来自于修道院的解散，这涉及到国家获得巨额资金，这意味着你可以大规模建造和收购。
Secondly, he had a big family and a big court.
其次，他有一个大家庭和一个大朝廷。
You needed to have palaces for the queens, for the Prince of Wales, and for your other offspring and so on.
你需要为女王、威尔士亲王和你的其他后代等建造宫殿。
Henry VIII built palaces on a great scale.
亨利八世大规模建造宫殿。
He then passed the palaces on to his successors, who, to begin with, had inherited a huge patrimony, so the requirement or the need for more buildings had been sated.
然后，他将宫殿传给了他的继承者，他的继承者首先继承了巨大的遗产，因此对更多建筑的要求或需要已经得到满足。
Also, of course, you go on to a series of singleton sovereigns.
当然，您还会继续使用一系列单一主权国家。
Edward VI is, obviously, basically a boy.
显然，爱德华六世基本上是一个男孩。
He never gets beyond his teens.
他永远不会超过十几岁。
Mary Tudor is an adult woman.
玛丽·都铎是一位成年女性。
She’s married but has no children.
她已婚但没有孩子。
Her husband is king of Spain, so he’s not really around very much.
她的丈夫是西班牙国王，所以他并不常在身边。
Then of course, famously, Elizabeth I is a singleton sovereign, unmarried and with no children.
当然，众所周知，伊丽莎白一世是一位单身君主，未婚，也没有孩子。
I think a lot of it is about practicality.
我认为很多都是关于实用性的。
You can add into the mix the extent to which you see — and there are obviously people who did — on top of those more practical issues, building as a way of expressing your status.
你可以将你所看到的程度添加到其中，并且显然有人在这些更实际的问题之上做到了，将建筑作为表达你地位的一种方式。
If we think of somebody like Louis XIV in France, it’s clear that over and above any of those practical requirements or questions of means, the magnificence of the monarch, and therefore of the institution of monarchy and so on, was something that he realized and expressed in buildings on a massive scale.
如果我们想到像法国路易十四这样的人，很明显，除了任何实际要求或手段问题之外，君主的辉煌，以及君主制的制度等等，都是他在大规模建筑中实现和表达的。
Why, concretely, do the monarchs wear crowns?
具体来说，为什么君主要戴王冠？
Well, it’s an interesting point because, of course, there’s no actual practical job that a crown does.
嗯，这是一个有趣的观点，因为当然，王冠并没有实际的作用。
It doesn’t —
它不 ——
Sure.
当然。
It could be a scepter.
它可能是一根权杖。
There are many different symbols of status you could invoke.
您可以使用许多不同的身份象征。
Why a crown?
为什么是皇冠？
Well, of course, there are also all those other symbols of status.
嗯，当然，还有所有其他地位的象征。
There are several scepters, there’s an orb, there are spurs, there are rings.
有几根权杖，有一个球体，有马刺，有戒指。
There’s a whole wardrobe of regalia, as it’s known.
众所周知，有一整套王冠。
Essentially, it’s about the echoing — with this amazing sense of continuity — of what was done by your ancestors, back to the origins of your institution.
从本质上讲，它是关于对你的祖先所做的事情的回响——“具有这种惊人的连续性”，回到你的机构的起源。
It’s very interesting that if you look at images of monarchs of England or within Britain going right back into the early Middle Ages, they all are wearing a ceremonial thing on their head.
非常有趣的是，如果你看一下英格兰或英国境内中世纪早期君主的图像，你会发现他们头上都戴着仪式用的东西。
Then, even if you look outside the British tradition, you see it in other nations.
然后，即使你把目光投向英国传统之外，你也会在其他国家看到它。
You see it in other traditions which had no connection to and no kind of interaction.
你可以在其他传统中看到它，这些传统与传统没有联系，也没有任何互动。
For example, in traditional African societies, where you see headdresses and the wearing of some ceremonial thing which denotes a person as being other than those around them — more important, more special, elevated.
例如，在传统的非洲社会中，你会看到头饰和佩戴一些仪式性的东西，这表明一个人与周围的人不同——更重要、更特殊、更高尚。
You see it in archeology.
你可以在考古学中看到它。
The earliest English crowns have been excavated from Iron Age graves.
最早的英国王冠是从铁器时代的坟墓中出土的。
This is before the advent of the written word.
这是在文字出现之前。
There seems to be an almost anthropological universality of the idea that doing something special on your head is a way of setting you apart.
在你的头上做一些特别的事情是让你与众不同的一种方式，这一想法似乎在人类学上具有普遍性。
This is very, very clearly monarchs doing it because their predecessors do it.
这非常非常明显，君主们这样做是因为他们的前任这样做了。
We see it in the Middle Ages.
我们在中世纪就看到了这一点。
Henry III, who was a great, long-lived, and successful medieval monarch, really lionized his predecessor by several generations, Edward the Confessor, who’d been canonized by the Catholic Church — there was a saint.
亨利三世是一位伟大、长寿、成功的中世纪君主，几代人都非常崇拜他的前任忏悔者爱德华，他被天主教会封为圣人——有一位圣人。
And the graves were opened of previous monarchs.
以前的君主的坟墓也被打开了。
Crowns which had been buried with them were got out, and so on.
与它们一起埋葬的王冠被取出，等等。
Of course, for all monarchies .
当然，对于所有君主制国家来说。
.
。
.
。
nowadays, we have essentially a ceremonial monarchy in this country.
如今，我们这个国家基本上实行的是礼仪君主制。
But when you trace them back to a time when monarchs were actually in charge and had executive power, always the challenge was, how did you pass it on to your children?
但当你追溯到君主实际掌权并拥有行政权力的时代时，你总是面临的挑战是，你是如何将其传递给你的孩子的？
How did you make sure that on your death .
你是如何在你死后确定这一点的。
.
。
.
。
Although you might be a powerful and successful king, as soon as you die, all your enemies come in and grab everything.
虽然你可能是一个强大而成功的国王，但一旦你死了，你所有的敌人就会进来并夺取一切。
You have to create this sense that somehow it isn’t just about you and your body, and when you are dead, it’s over.
你必须创造一种感觉，不知何故，这不仅仅是关于你和你的身体，当你死了，一切都结束了。
There’s some continuity.
有一定的连续性。
There’s some kind of heredity that carries your aura and power and ability to command down through the generations.
有某种遗传可以让你的光环、力量和指挥能力代代相传。
Anointing is part of this, which is a big thing.
恩膏是其中的一部分，这是一件大事。
This is a business of a holy endorsement of your line — but also the passing on of all these objects, which, when you breathe your last on your deathbed, are still there, and attention can be drawn to them.
这是对您的路线的神圣认可——同时也是所有这些物品的传承，当您在临终前呼吸最后一口气时，它们仍然在那里，并且可以引起人们的注意。
Then they’re put on the head of your successor, and your aura passes to him or her.
然后它们会戴在你的继任者的头上，你的光环就会传递给他或她。
It’s an interesting cocktail of history and anthropology and sociology, in a way.
在某种程度上，这是历史、人类学和社会学的有趣鸡尾酒。
Why is the British monarchy so extremely successful as a global institution, including in the United States?
为什么英国君主制作为一个全球机构（包括在美国）如此成功？
When Elizabeth passed, many people said, “Oh, this is the end of the line.” That seems clearly untrue.
当伊丽莎白去世时，许多人说：“哦，这就是终点了。”这显然是不真实的。
The thing is just going to continue.
事情还会继续下去。
It’s extremely popular, draws a wide spectrum of interest.
它非常受欢迎，引起了广泛的兴趣。
What’s the marketing genius behind what’s going on?
这一切背后的营销天才是什么？
Why is it so well known?
为什么它如此广为人知？
You look at the royal families of the Netherlands, Norway.
你看看荷兰、挪威的王室。
They can speak English, but no one seems to care.
他们会说英语，但似乎没有人关心。
It’s interesting, isn’t it?
很有趣，不是吗？
I guess it’s probably a cocktail of things.
我想这可能是一种鸡尾酒。
I suppose the balance that’s been struck between a nonexecutive head of state in the form of the monarch and the executive in the form of the government, the prime minister, and so on — but without dialing down much of the bling and the splendor and the ceremony of the monarchy, even though the power has gone — has turned out to be a very successful formulation.
我认为，在以君主形式出现的非执行国家元首与以政府、首相等形式出现的行政国家元首之间取得的平衡——尽管权力已经消失，但并没有减少君主制的太多金光闪闪和仪式——已经被证明是一个非常成功的表述。
It’s interesting, because I don’t know that it would necessarily have been obvious that that would’ve worked.
这很有趣，因为我不知道这是否一定会奏效。
There might have been a feeling that it would be absurd to continue to have all these palaces and grounds and state coaches and all this kind of stuff when you are looking at something which is fundamentally part of the ritual of state, but it isn’t actually exercising any executive authority.
当你看到一些本质上是国家仪式的一部分但实际上并没有行使任何行政权力时，可能会有一种感觉，继续拥有所有这些宫殿、庭院、国家马车和所有类似的东西是荒谬的。
But it happens to have come to pass that, actually, that seems to be quite a satisfying separation.
但事实上，这似乎是一次相当令人满意的分离。
There’s something about the apolitical nature of the monarchy, and how incredibly careful they have to be about that in a world where everything seems to endlessly be in turmoil in terms of electoral politics and so on, to have a certain sense of reassurance about it.
君主制的非政治性质是有一定道理的，在一个一切似乎都在选举政治等方面陷入无尽混乱的世界里，他们必须非常小心，才能有一定的安心感。
I also think that it changes.
我也认为它会改变。
If you’d been talking about the success of the monarchy 30 years ago, it might have been a different conversation.
如果你在 30 年前谈论君主制的成功，那可能会是一场不同的谈话。
I think there have been moments where the monarchy has felt very successful, others where it’s felt more fragile.
我认为，在某些时刻，君主制会感到非常成功，而在其他时刻，它又会感觉更加脆弱。
And then, I suppose, you have to layer into that the fact of some quite practical things, like the monarchy in this country is in an anglophone country, so the language that is spoken and the traditions — the Anglo-Saxon traditions, if you like — have a certain familiarity around the world, which makes a connection.
然后，我想，你必须考虑到一些非常实际的事情的事实，比如这个国家的君主制是在一个英语国家，所以所使用的语言和传统——“盎格鲁-撒克逊传统，如果你喜欢的话——”在世界各地都有一定的熟悉度，这就产生了联系。
Obviously, also long past now, but the skeleton, if you like, of a monarchy which was once an empire that stretched around the world still has connections and associations that make the British monarchy of interest in places where the Swedish monarchy might not be, as it were.
显然，现在也已经过去很久了，但如果你愿意的话，曾经是一个遍布世界各地的帝国的君主制的骨架仍然具有联系和联系，使英国君主制在瑞典君主制可能不感兴趣的地方引起人们的兴趣。
You’re director of Landmark Trust.
您是 Landmark Trust 的董事。
How should we as outsiders think about where the revenue comes from?
作为局外人，我们应该如何思考收入从何而来？
How does it work financially?
它在财务上如何运作？
We’re a charity, historic buildings charity.
我们是一家慈善机构，致力于历史建筑慈善机构。
Our job is to rescue historic buildings that are in a derelict or in a bad way, to raise the money to restore them.
我们的工作是抢救那些被遗弃或状况不佳的历史建筑，并筹集资金进行修复。
Then we rent them out for people to stay in.
然后我们将它们出租给人们居住。
We have 200 buildings across the whole of the British Isles: castles and dairies and lighthouses and all manner of things, artillery forts.
我们在整个不列颠群岛有 200 座建筑：城堡、乳品厂、灯塔以及各种各样的东西，炮台。
And we are self-financing.
而且我们是自筹资金的。
The money that runs the charity comes from letting the buildings.
该慈善机构的运营资金来自出租建筑物。
If you were just —
如果你只是 ——
So, you make money.
所以，你赚钱了。
Well, we don’t .
好吧，我们不知道。
.
。
.
。
We generate money, but —
我们赚钱，但是 —
You plow it back into the mission of the institution?
您将其重新投入到该机构的使命中吗？
We plow it back in.
我们把它犁回去。
If you were staying in London this week and you weren’t staying in a smart hotel, you could be staying in a silk worker’s house in the East End, built in 1707, or John Betjeman’s apartment, which is in Clerkenwell, both of which we own.
如果您本周在伦敦入住，但入住的酒店不是一家高档酒店，那么您可能会入住建于 1707 年的东区丝绸工人的房屋，或者位于克勒肯韦尔 (Clerkenwell) 的约翰·贝杰曼 (John Betjeman) 公寓，这两处公寓都是我们的。
You would be staying in a wonderful historic building, sleeping in comfortable beds and everything.
您将住在一座美妙的历史建筑中，睡在舒适的床和一切设施上。
But as well as your money being a way of paying for your stay, it also helps us to run our charity and then to go on to acquire more buildings that would otherwise be lost.
但是，您的钱不仅可以作为您住宿费用的一种方式，还可以帮助我们运营我们的慈善机构，然后继续收购更多否则会丢失的建筑物。
We have this amazing stock of buildings in this country.
这个国家拥有数量惊人的建筑。
Do you grade your renters the way, say, Airbnb does?
你会像 Airbnb 那样对租客进行评分吗？
Or anyone can come in and stay in the castle?
或者任何人都可以进来并留在城堡里？
We love them all, and we don’t grade them.
我们爱他们所有人，而且我们不给他们打分。
If you did something really awful, like made a pile of the furniture and set fire to it, we might not rent you another building, but we don’t grade them.
如果你做了一些非常糟糕的事情，比如堆了一堆家具然后放火烧了它，我们可能不会再租给你另一栋大楼，但我们不会对它们进行评分。
We are open to everybody, and as I say, we are a charity.
我们向所有人开放，正如我所说，我们是一家慈善机构。
We don’t price ourselves in a way that makes us available only to the super-rich.
我们的定价方式不会让我们只适合超级富豪。
It’s all sorts of people come and stay in our buildings, and anyone can do it.
各种各样的人来到我们的建筑里居住，任何人都可以这样做。
You just go on our website, landmarktrust.org.uk, and you can choose from any number of wonderful follies and mini castles.
您只需访问我们的网站，landmarktrust.org.uk，您就可以从任意数量的精彩愚蠢建筑和迷你城堡中进行选择。
We’ve just finished restoring an amazing castle near Inverness for people who go to Scotland, maybe following their own roots.
我们刚刚为那些前往苏格兰追寻自己根源的人们修复了因弗内斯附近一座令人惊叹的城堡。
Beautiful building, built in 1550, which had no roof and no floors until two years ago.
这座美丽的建筑建于 1550 年，直到两年前才没有屋顶和地板。
We raised the money through people giving money philanthropically and also through grants and so on, to re-roof it, re-floor it, and put heat and power in, and now you can have your own castle for the weekend.
我们通过人们慈善捐款以及赠款等方式筹集资金，重新盖屋顶、重新铺地板、安装暖气和电力，现在你可以拥有自己的城堡来度周末了。
Is it socioeconomic status that, in essence, stops your renters from trashing the places?
从本质上讲，是社会经济地位阻止了你的租客乱扔垃圾吗？
Because if Airbnb had no star system, I would be quite worried.
因为如果Airbnb没有星级制度，我会很担心。
Whereas presumably, you have a narrower set of renters, if not higher in income, higher in education or historic understanding.
然而，据推测，租客的范围较小，即使不是收入更高、教育程度或历史理解程度更高。
I think it is a self-selecting group of people.
我认为这是一群自我选择的人。
The nature of our buildings — I think you are right, which is that, on the whole, people go to them because they’re really interested in that kind of thing, and so it would be a counterintuitive thing then to trash it.
我们建筑物的本质 —— 我认为你是对的，那就是，总的来说，人们去那里是因为他们对那种东西真的很感兴趣，所以把它扔掉是违反直觉的事情。
We occasionally have people who make a bit of a mess, but it’s pretty rare.
我们偶尔也会有人把事情搞得一团糟，但这种情况很少见。
People respond to somewhere that feels really special and that you know is run by a charity and looked after with great care, and there’s a nice member of staff who gives you the key or gets in contact with you.
人们会对感觉非常特别的地方做出反应，并且你知道该地方是由慈善机构运营并受到精心照顾，并且有一位友善的工作人员会给你钥匙或与你联系。
I think people’s good nature and recognition, I suppose, of the specialness of what they’re experiencing is pretty good.
我认为人们的善良本性和对他们所经历的特殊性的认识是相当好的。
A pretty good force for keeping them behaving themselves.
这是让他们保持良好行为的强大力量。
Did the income tax and estate tax lead to the end of the era of great country homes?
所得税和遗产税是否导致了伟大乡村住宅时代的结束？
Because all of a sudden, they became a lot more expensive, right?
因为突然之间，它们变得更贵了，对吗？
The carrying costs are suddenly much higher.
持有成本突然高得多。
Yes.
是的。
It was definitely a big factor at the rise of inheritance tax and various other land taxes.
这绝对是遗产税和其他各种土地税上涨的一个重要因素。
It didn’t bring an end to them.
这并没有结束他们。
You don’t need to go very far in this country to see that.
你不需要在这个国家走很远就能看到这一点。
But many more are turned over to groups like Landmark Trust, right?
但还有更多的人被移交给像 Landmark Trust 这样的团体，对吗？
Yes, it’s true.
是的，这是真的。
A lot of them were sold off, the interiors stripped out — a lot of the interiors sold to the States, actually.
其中很多都被卖掉了，内饰被拆除——实际上，很多内饰都卖给了美国。
It’s a very interesting phase in the history of British country houses, really, in the first 20, 30 years of the 20th century, where whole rooms .
这是英国乡村别墅历史上一个非常有趣的阶段，实际上是在 20 世纪的前 20、30 年，整个房间都被建满了。
.
。
.
。
The house that I live in — this happened to whole rooms — beautiful paneling from the Tudor period prized off the walls, put in packing cases, and dealers would sell them to the Randolph Hearsts of the world, who were recreating an idea of old Europe in new buildings.
我住的房子——“整个房间都发生了这种情况”——都铎时期漂亮的镶板从墙上撬下来，装进包装箱，经销商会把它们卖给世界各地的伦道夫·赫斯特家族，他们正在新建筑中重现旧欧洲的理念。
There were a series of factors at play, but it also has to do with the First World War.
有一系列因素在起作用，但也与第一次世界大战有关。
The extent of the death toll taken by the First World War, the impact that had on these great estates in terms of the workforce — not just of the owners of the houses, but also the people who were working on the estates — was enormous.
第一次世界大战造成的死亡人数以及对这些大庄园的劳动力——“不仅包括房屋的所有者，还包括在庄园里工作的人们”的影响是巨大的。
It did make for a big shift.
它确实带来了巨大的转变。
But there’s something called the Historic Houses Association in the UK, which is a kind of club, a trade association for people who are private owners of big historic houses and open them to the public or do public events in them, and they have an annual conference.
但英国有一个叫做历史建筑协会的组织，它是一种俱乐部，是大型历史建筑私人业主的贸易协会，他们将其向公众开放或在其中举办公共活动，他们每年举行一次会议。
If you go to it, you really wouldn’t think the English or British country house is in trouble.
如果你去那里，你真的不会认为英国或英国的乡村别墅有麻烦。
There are thousands of people there.
那里有数千人。
There are buildings up and down the country where they’re busy putting in farm shops and glamping, which is a very big thing in the UK, and amazing eco projects, and so on.
全国各地都有建筑物，他们忙着建造农场商店和豪华露营，这在英国是一件非常大的事情，还有令人惊叹的生态项目等等。
The taxation system and essentially the rise of the state as an institution that needed resources to be able to fund things like universal healthcare, which is obviously a wonderful thing, required the growth of taxation.
税收制度以及国家作为一个需要资源来资助诸如全民医疗保健之类的机构的崛起，这显然是一件好事，都需要税收的增长。
And that definitely, particularly in the mid-20th century, took a big toll on landowners and big houses.
这无疑给地主和大房子造成了巨大损失，尤其是在 20 世纪中叶。
Given the standpoint of your job, how is it you think differently about, say, a wealth tax?
考虑到您的工作立场，您对财富税等问题有何不同看法？
I don’t know that I do think differently about a wealth tax.
我不知道我对财富税是否有不同的看法。
I suppose —
我想 ——
But it’s discouraging the creation and maintenance of the asset you’re dedicated to popularizing and preserving, right?
但这会阻碍您致力于推广和保护的资产的创建和维护，对吗？
Well, not necessarily.
嗯，不一定。
A lot of people who have big historic houses — a lot of them have them in charitable trusts and do things which mean there is public benefit, more generally, from them.
很多人都拥有历史悠久的大房子，他们中的很多人都将它们放入慈善信托基金中，并做一些意味着更广泛地说可以从中获得公共利益的事情。
It depends what sort of wealth tax and how it’s calculated, what the basis of it is.
这取决于财富税的类型、计算方式以及其基础是什么。
But I think there are lots of ways you could formulate something that didn’t penalize those who were clearly taking a very responsible attitude to historic buildings.
但我认为有很多方法可以制定一些不会惩罚那些明显对历史建筑采取非常负责任态度的人的措施。
I also think that sometimes too much money is an absolute killer of historic buildings.
我还认为，有时候太多的钱绝对是历史建筑的杀手。
You see the absolute ruination of wonderful buildings in, for example, the wealthier parts of London, where every corner has been stripped out, the plaster has been hacked off to be redone every 10 years by the next owner, and all character and pattern has been lost for them.
例如，在伦敦较富裕的地区，你会看到美妙的建筑被彻底毁坏，那里的每个角落都被拆除，灰泥被砍掉，每十年由下一任主人重做，所有的特征和图案都消失了。
I think there’s something to be said for poverty as a preserver as well as wealth.
我认为贫穷和财富一样，都可以作为保护者。
Should Britain fund heritage through lotteries, which are generally regressive?
英国是否应该通过彩票来资助遗产，而彩票通常是倒退的？
They don’t offer fair odds.
他们不提供公平的赔率。
Poorer people buy the tickets.
比较穷的人买票。
Well, that does happen in this country now.
嗯，现在这个国家确实发生了这种情况。
Sure, but should it?
当然可以，但是应该吗？
Well, it’s a good question.
嗯，这是一个好问题。
The Heritage Lottery Fund — actually, I think it’s now called the National Lottery Heritage Fund — receives a significant sum of money each year from the National Lottery, which was set up in the ’90s to fund various things, including a lot of sports, including a lot of community work.
遗产彩票基金 ——实际上，我认为它现在被称为国家彩票遗产基金 ——每年从国家彩票获得大量资金，国家彩票成立于上世纪 90 年代，旨在资助各种活动，包括许多体育运动，包括许多社区工作。
It’s very broadly based.
它的基础非常广泛。
I think you’re right to say that you have to be very alive to the demographics of those people who are buying lottery tickets.
我认为你说得对，你必须对购买彩票的人的人口统计数据非常了解。
I buy them myself.
我自己买。
It’s a broad community.
这是一个广泛的社区。
The way that money is allocated by the Lottery Fund is acutely conscious of that.
彩票基金分配资金的方式敏锐地意识到了这一点。
Each project that you do — and I’ve done a number of them — where you receive money through the Lottery Fund, you have to demonstrate how you are making a difference to the lives of the people who are buying the tickets.
你所做的每一个项目（我已经做过很多这样的项目），只要你通过彩票基金获得资金，你就必须证明你如何改变购买彩票的人们的生活。
But so much of the work that is done through that program is amazing.
但通过该计划完成的大部分工作都令人惊叹。
Grassroots work, for example, in the town I live in, King’s Lynn — the local Fisher Folk Museum, which documents the lives of the fishing people of that town through generations: their livelihoods, their communities, their way of life.
例如，在我居住的金斯林镇，当地的渔民民俗博物馆记录了该镇几代渔民的生活：他们的生计、他们的社区和他们的生活方式。
That wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for the Lottery Heritage Fund.
如果没有彩票遗产基金，这一切就不会存在。
That seems, to me, to be a wonderful thing and something that we should be really proud of.
对我来说，这似乎是一件美妙的事情，也是我们应该感到自豪的事情。
Which are the old buildings that we have too many of in Britain?
英国有太多的老建筑有哪些？
There’s a lot of Christopher Wren churches.
有很多克里斯托弗·雷恩教堂。
I think there’s over 20.
我想有超过20个。
Too many?
太多了？
What if they were 15?
如果他们15岁怎么办？
They’re not all fantastic.
他们并不都很棒。
They’re not all fantastic?
他们不是都很棒吗？
Tell me one that isn’t fantastic.
告诉我一个不太好的事情。
The Victorians knocked down St. Mildred.
维多利亚时代的人打倒了圣米尔德里德。
I’ve seen pictures of it.
我看过它的照片。
I don’t miss it.
我不会错过它。
Well, you don’t miss something that’s not there.
好吧，你不会错过不存在的东西。
I think it’d be pretty hard to convince me that any Christopher Wren church wasn’t worth hanging on to.
我想很难让我相信任何克里斯托弗·雷恩教堂都不值得坚持下去。
But your point is right, which is to say that not everything that was ever built is worth retaining.
但你的观点是对的，也就是说，并不是所有建造过的东西都值得保留。
There are things which are clearly of much less interest or were poorly built, which are not serving a purpose anymore in a way that they need to.
有些东西显然没有什么吸引力，或者建造得很糟糕，它们不再以它们需要的方式服务于目的。
To me, it’s all about assessing what matters, what we care about.
对我来说，这一切都是为了评估什么是重要的，什么是我们关心的。
It’s incredibly important to remember how you have to try and take the long view because if you let things go, you cannot later retrieve them.
记住如何尝试并着眼长远是非常重要的，因为如果你放手，以后就无法找回它们。
We look at the decisions that were made in the past about things that we really care about that were demolished — wonderful country houses, we’ve mentioned.
我们会审视过去对那些我们真正关心的、被拆除的事物所做的决定——我们已经提到过，那些美妙的乡村别墅。
It’s fantastic, for example, Euston Station, one of the great stations of the world, built in the middle of the 19th century, demolished in the ’60s, regretted forever since.
太棒了，比如尤斯顿车站，世界上最伟大的车站之一，建于19世纪中叶，60年代被拆除，从此永远遗憾。
So, one of the things you have to be really careful about is to make a distinction between the fashion of the moment and things which we are going to regret, or our children or our grandchildren are going to curse us for having not valued or not thought about, not considered.
因此，你必须真正小心的一件事就是区分当前的时尚和我们会后悔的事情，否则我们的子孙会因为我们没有重视或没有考虑过而咒骂我们。
Which is why, in this country, we have this thing called the listing system, where there’s a process of identifying buildings which are important, and what’s called listing them — putting them on a list — which means that if you own them, you can’t change them without getting permission, which is a way of ensuring that things which you as an owner or I as an owner might not treat with scorn, that the interest of generations to come are represented in that.
这就是为什么在这个国家，我们有一个叫做列表系统的东西，其中有一个过程来识别重要的建筑物，以及所谓的将它们列出 —— 将它们列入列表 —— 这意味着，如果你拥有它们，则未经许可你不能改变它们，这是确保你作为所有者或我作为所有者不会轻视的东西的一种方式，确保子孙后代的利益在其中得到体现。
Why were so many big mistakes made in the middle part of the 20th century?
为什么20世纪中叶会犯这么多大错误？
St. Pancras almost was knocked down, as I’m sure you know.
圣潘克拉斯几乎被摧毁了，我相信你知道。
That would have been a huge blunder.
那将是一个巨大的错误。
There was something about that time that people seem to have become more interested in ugliness.
那个时候人们似乎对丑陋变得更感兴趣了。
Or what’s your theory?
或者你的理论是什么？
How do you explain the insanity that took all of Britain for, what, 30 years?
你如何解释整个英国长达三十年的疯狂？
Well, I think this is such a good question because this is, to me, what the study of history is all about, which is, you have to think about what it was like for that generation.
嗯，我认为这是一个很好的问题，因为对我来说，这就是历史研究的全部内容，也就是说，你必须思考那一代人的情况。
You have to think of what it was like for people in the 1950s and ’60s, who had experienced, either firsthand or very close at hand, not just one but two catastrophic world wars in which numbers had been killed, places had been destroyed.
你必须想一想 20 世纪 50 年代和 60 年代的人们是什么样的情况，他们亲眼目睹或亲眼目睹了不只一场、而是两场灾难性的世界大战，在这些战争中，人员伤亡、地方被毁。
The whole human cost of that time was so colossal, and the idea for that generation that something really fundamental had to change if we were going to be a society that wasn’t going to be killing one another at all time.
那段时间的整个人类成本是如此巨大，而那一代人的想法是，如果我们要成为一个永远不会互相残杀的社会，就必须改变一些真正根本性的东西。
This has a real sort of mirror in the 17th century, during the Civil War in the 17th century.
这是 17 世纪、17 世纪内战期间的真实镜子。
There’s a real feeling that something had to be done.
确实有一种必须做点什么的感觉。
Otherwise, God was going to strike down this nation, this errant nation.
否则，神就会毁灭这个国家，这个犯错的国家。
I think for that generation in the ’50s and ’60s, the sense that we simply have to do things differently because this pattern of life, this pattern of existence, this way we’ve operated as a society has been so destructive.
我认为对于 50 年代和 60 年代的那一代人来说，我们必须以不同的方式做事，因为这种生活模式、这种存在模式、这种社会运作方式具有如此大的破坏性。
Although lots of things were done — when it comes to urban planning and so on — that we really regret now, I think you have to be really careful not to diminish the seriousness of intent of those people who were trying to conceive of what that world might be — more egalitarian, more democratic, involving more space, more air, more light, healthier — all these kinds of things.
虽然我们做了很多事情 —— 当涉及到城市规划等时 ——我们现在真的很遗憾，但我认为你必须非常小心，不要削弱那些试图构想这个世界可能是什么样子的人们的严肃意图——“更平等、更民主，涉及更多空间、更多空气、更多光线、更健康——”所有这些事情。
We can see lots now that we say, “Well, that’s ridiculous.
现在我们可以看到很多，我们说：“好吧，这太荒谬了。
This is not how society works.” But we didn’t experience what they experienced.
社会不是这样运作的。”但他们所经历的我们却没有经历过。
I actually have real respect for a lot of that.
我实际上非常尊重其中的很多内容。
I think a lot of things that were done .
我认为已经做了很多事情。
.
。
.
。
I’m going tomorrow to see a place somewhere called Letchworth, the world’s first garden city, which was planned and laid out north of London in the 1910s, which was completely about saying we’ve got to design a new world.
明天我要去一个叫莱奇沃斯的地方，这是世界上第一个花园城市，它是 1910 年代在伦敦北部规划和布局的，完全是在说我们必须设计一个新世界。
I think it’s good to have a bit of humility in considering these decisions because people don’t go around wantonly trying to destroy the environment.
我认为在考虑这些决定时保持一点谦逊是件好事，因为人们不会肆意破坏环境。
They think that they’re doing the right thing.
他们认为自己正在做正确的事情。
If we look at most of the Western world, it seems to me that after World War II, there are very few, really very few beautiful new neighborhoods created.
如果我们看看大多数西方世界，在我看来，二战后，几乎没有、真的很少有美丽的新社区被创建。
A lot of spectacular individual buildings, but it’s very hard to find neighborhoods that are as nice as what was built in the 1890s, the 1910s.
有很多壮观的独立建筑，但很难找到像 1890 年代、1910 年代建造的那样漂亮的社区。
Depends on the country, the era.
取决于国家、时代。
What happened to neighborhood architecture?
邻里建筑发生了什么？
Why did it so radically decline in wealthier societies?
为什么它在富裕社会中急剧下降？
Such a good question.
这是个好问题。
I was talking about this with somebody only the other day.
前几天我还和某人谈论过这个问题。
I think there are clearly places where you do see it and you do see it work now, but they’re pretty few and far between.
我认为显然在某些地方你确实看到了它并且你现在确实看到它起作用了，但它们非常少而且相距甚远。
I think there’s a lot of work going on with young architects in the field and really trying to crack this business about neighborhoods and housing, not least because, in this country, there’s a real housing crisis, because we’re a small country with a lot of people, and challenges of building are very great.
我认为该领域的年轻建筑师正在进行大量工作，并真正试图解决有关社区和住房的问题，尤其是因为，在这个国家，存在真正的住房危机，因为我们是一个人口众多的小国家，建筑的挑战非常大。
But it is really stark.
但这确实很严峻。
I don’t know the answer to it.
我不知道答案。
I think there are observations I would make.
我想我会提出一些观察。
One, I would say that the idea of the philanthropic neighborhood development scheme has really gone, but there was a lot of that that happened in the late 19th, early 20th century, with landowners — and also company directors, and so on — doing things that were going to be beautiful.
第一，我想说的是，慈善社区发展计划的想法确实已经消失了，但在 19 世纪末、20 世纪初发生了很多这样的事情，土地所有者——还有公司董事等等——都在做一些美好的事情。
There’s a wonderful place up near Liverpool called Port Sunlight, which was all laid out by a great industrialist — absolutely the most beautiful place that you could imagine — for people who would be working for him.
利物浦附近有一个美妙的地方，名叫阳光港，这一切都是由一位伟大的实业家为他的工作人员设计的——“绝对是你能想象到的最美丽的地方”。
There’s something about the aspiration of beauty and a sense of responsibility for creating it.
对美的渴望和创造美的责任感是有的。
It feels like that has really diminished in the world of either the state does it, and they’re trying to do it as cheaply as possible, or developers do it, and they have another reason to do it as cheaply as possible.
感觉这种情况在世界上确实减少了，要么是国家这样做，他们试图尽可能便宜地这样做，要么是开发商这样做，他们有另一个理由尽可能便宜地这样做。
I agree, it’s something to really regret.
我同意，这确实是一件令人遗憾的事情。
It’s something we have to decide we care about, or we’re not going to make it any better.
这是我们必须决定我们关心的事情，否则我们不会让它变得更好。
If the House of Lords were abolished, as Labour has proposed — as you know — would that make it harder for policy to protect heritage in Britain?
如果像工党提议的那样废除上议院——“如你所知”——这会让英国遗产保护政策变得更加困难吗？
No, I don’t think so.
不，我不这么认为。
You don’t think they’re a net force one way or the other?
你不认为他们是一股净力量吗？
Because they do slow down legislation.
因为它们确实减慢了立法速度。
They slow down change.
他们放慢了变革的速度。
It’s part of being —
这是存在的一部分 ——
I’m all for abolishing the House of Lords myself, personally.
我个人完全赞成废除上议院。
I think it’s totally past its sell-by date as an institution.
我认为它作为一个机构已经完全过了保质期。
The fact that we still have nearly a hundred members of the House of Lords who are hereditary peers, who are, by definition, all men, I find extraordinary.
事实上，我们仍然有近百名上议院议员，他们都是世袭贵族，根据定义，他们都是男性，这一点我觉得很了不起。
But they’re being replaced, right?
但他们正在被取代，对吗？
They’re literally grandfathered in, in some ways.
在某种程度上，他们确实是祖父。
Yes, but there are still a hundred of them.
是的，但仍然有一百个。
There’ll be a hundred —
将会有一百个——
But they’re going to die.
但他们会死。
Then they get replaced by others.
然后他们就会被其他人取代。
But they’re not hereditary, are they?
但它们不是遗传的，不是吗？
They’re replaced.
他们被替换了。
Except that they’re from a pool, all of whom are hereditary.
除了他们来自一个池子之外，所有人都是世袭的。
When the House of Lords reform happened in 1997 or thereabouts, it was a compromise.
1997 年左右上议院改革时，这是一种妥协。
Instead of all the hereditary peers being able to sit in the House of Lords, they said they’ll only be a hundred, and they can nominate among themselves who they are.
他们说，他们的年龄只有一百岁，而不是所有世袭贵族都能进入上议院，而且他们可以互相提名。
But it seems to me absurd that there should be a hundred.
但在我看来，应该有一百个是荒谬的。
I mean, they’re all men, apart from anything else.
我的意思是，除了其他以外，他们都是男人。
It’s not that they aren’t great people.
这并不是说他们不是伟大的人。
A lot of them are; they’re wonderful people.
其中很多是；他们是很棒的人。
But to me, it’s an utterly absurd basis on which to involve somebody in the process of legislation.
但对我来说，让某人参与立法过程是完全荒谬的。
When it comes to your point about heritage, I think it’s good to have a second chamber.
当谈到您关于遗产的观点时，我认为拥有第二个房间是件好事。
I think there’s a debate to be had about what the basis of that is, in terms of how you would come to have a seat in it.
我认为，关于其基础是什么，以及如何在其中占有一席之地，需要进行一场辩论。
But I believe that a concern for our environment and the buildings and places in which we live and were built by our ancestors is a really universal one, and it doesn’t require you to have a particular social slice of society in the House of Lords to ensure it’s protected.
但我相信，对我们的环境以及我们居住的和由我们的祖先建造的建筑物和地方的关注是一种真正普遍的关注，它并不要求你在上议院拥有特定的社会阶层来确保它受到保护。
My British YIMBY friends claim to me that the cost of living is too high here, and we need to build at least 2 million new homes, mostly in the south of England.
我的英国 YIMBY 朋友向我声称，这里的生活成本太高，我们需要建造至少 200 万套新住宅，其中大部分位于英格兰南部。
Do you agree, and would that threaten heritage?
您同意吗？这会威胁到遗产吗？
I definitely agree that we need a lot more places for people to live, but my contention would be we have an incredible stock of buildings which are unoccupied.
我绝对同意我们需要更多的地方供人们居住，但我的观点是我们有大量闲置的建筑物。
You go into any British market town, and you will see half the shops are empty.
你走进任何一个英国集镇，你都会看到一半的商店是空的。
If you look above the shops, these are, generally speaking, 19th- and early 20th-century buildings.
如果你仔细观察这些商店，你会发现这些建筑一般都是 19 世纪和 20 世纪早期的建筑。
The buildings are completely empty.
建筑物完全空了。
These could all provide wonderful places for people to live.
这些都可以为人们提供美好的居住场所。
I live in a town center, in a market town myself, with a bit of will to say, “Let’s use the things we have.
我住在一个市中心，一个集镇，我有一点意愿说：“让我们利用我们拥有的东西吧。
Let’s adapt them.” Apart from the interest and the beauty, in my view, these buildings are all embedded carbon.
让我们调整它们。”除了有趣和美丽之外，在我看来，这些建筑都是嵌入碳的。
The environmental cost of building them has already been incurred, and then they bring people to live in towns near where other communities are.
建造它们的环境成本已经产生，然后它们将人们带到其他社区附近的城镇居住。
It’s not that I don’t think there’s a role for building new houses, but I think it’s an easy choice that suits the developer very well, thank you very much, to get a field and build some houses on it and sell it off.
并不是说我不认为建造新房子有作用，而是我认为这是一个简单的选择，非常适合开发商，非常感谢，获得一块地，在上面建造一些房子，然后把它卖掉。
The task of saying, “How do we make sure our geography and our wonderful towns and villages are full of life, and how do we use what we’ve got?” requires a bit more imagination.
任务是：“我们如何确保我们的地理环境以及我们美丽的城镇和村庄充满生机，以及我们如何利用我们所拥有的一切？”需要多一点想象力。
But I think that the opportunity there is absolutely enormous, and I long to see somebody really grasp that.
但我认为那里的机会绝对是巨大的，我渴望看到有人真正抓住这一机会。
What should policy do to enable that?
政策应该采取什么措施来实现这一目标？
What has to happen?
必须发生什么？
Well, I don’t know.
好吧，我不知道。
I’m not enough wired into the way the system works, but I think there needs to be a clear national policy of exploring that.
我对这个系统的运作方式还不够了解，但我认为需要有一个明确的国家政策来探索这个问题。
And then there needs to be the will and the resources for local government to demonstrate that they have exhausted those possibilities before permission is given for new builds in many cases.
在许多情况下，地方政府需要有意愿和资源来证明他们在获得新建筑许可之前已经用尽了这些可能性。
The aesthetic history of jewelry and the Crown Jewels, and the aesthetic history of architecture in England — do they run on parallel tracks, or are they very different stories?
珠宝和皇冠珠宝的美学史，以及英国建筑的美学史——它们是并行的，还是截然不同的故事？
Well, through time, the ages have different stylistic tastes, if you like.
好吧，随着时间的推移，如果你愿意的话，各个时代都有不同的风格品味。
We might think of the 1920s and ’30s and art deco architecture, and if you look at jewelry and jewelry design, you see that similarly in favor of square-cut stones and very rectilinear things.
我们可能会想到 20 年代和 30 年代的装饰艺术建筑，如果您观察珠宝和珠宝设计，您会发现同样偏爱方形切割宝石和非常直线的东西。
Similarly, if you look at the late 17th century with baroque buildings, and then you look at the design, for example, of our Crown Jewels, which were made — most of them — in the late 17th century, you see common motifs in terms of decoration, in terms of floral devices, in terms of the massing of objects, and the relationship between different elements.
同样，如果你观察 17 世纪末的巴洛克式建筑，然后再看看我们的皇冠珠宝的设计，它们是在 17 世纪末制作的，你会看到装饰、花卉装置、物体的聚集以及不同元素之间的关系方面的共同主题。
Whether it’s an age of ornament or an age of minimalism, you see that across different artistic forms in jewelry and architecture, like clothes and other things, are all part of that.
无论是装饰时代还是极简主义时代，您都会看到珠宝和建筑中的不同艺术形式，例如衣服和其他东西，都是其中的一部分。
Will there be a new age of Crown Jewels that are designed today, produced today, viewed as important?
今天设计、今天生产、被视为重要的皇冠珠宝是否会迎来一个新时代？
Or do they somehow have to come from the 17th century, and they have to be old?
或者它们是否必须来自 17 世纪，而且必须是古老的？
But that wasn’t the case in the 17th century, right?
但 17 世纪的情况并非如此，对吧？
No one said back then, they all have to be old.
那时候没人说，他们都得老了。
That’s why they produced new ones.
这就是他们生产新产品的原因。
Well, they produced new ones because the old ones had been melted down.
嗯，他们生产了新的，因为旧的已经被熔化了。
It was a bit more of a necessity than a desire for novelty.
这更多的是一种必要性，而不是对新奇的渴望。
There wasn’t any desire for novelty.
没有任何新奇的欲望。
If they could have had the old ones, they would have had them.
如果他们能拥有旧的，他们就会拥有它们。
When the new ones were made in the 1660s — which is the collection that we now have — the instructions were they should be exact replicas of the things that were destroyed.
当新的在 1660 年代制作时（这就是我们现在拥有的收藏），指示是它们应该是被摧毁的东西的精确复制品。
That said, there has always, alongside this idea that you should be using something very ancient that speaks of the ancientness of your lineage and so on — new pieces have, in the past, often been made to accompany the older ancestral pieces, quite often for queens or queen consorts.
也就是说，除了这样的想法之外，一直以来都有这样的想法：你应该使用一些非常古老的东西来讲述你的血统的古老性等等 —— 过去，新的作品经常是为了搭配较旧的祖先作品而制作的，通常是为女王或王后而制作的。
That’s not the appetite of the age.
这不是这个时代的胃口。
It would be very hard to imagine anyone feeling that it was a good use of money to spend a lot of money buying new diamonds and making a new crown at the moment, not least because there’s quite a lot in the collection.
很难想象有人会觉得现在花很多钱购买新钻石并制作新王冠是一种很好的利用方式，尤其是因为收藏品相当多。
I’d be quite surprised if we see many more pieces made in my lifetime.
如果我们在有生之年看到更多作品，我会感到非常惊讶。
Since they’re not using the original jewel of Koh-i-Noor anymore, why not just give it back?
既然他们不再使用光之山的原始宝石，为什么不把它还给呢？
It was taken in wartime, 1849, Second Anglo-Sikh War, East India Company.
它拍摄于战时，1849 年，第二次英锡克战争，东印度公司。
India, Pakistan — they want it back.
印度、巴基斯坦——他们想要拿回来。
Why not just give it back?
为什么不直接还给它呢？
Well, it’s a very interesting point.
嗯，这是一个非常有趣的观点。
The trouble is that the Koh-i-Noor diamond has been a stone that was taken in conquest through a whole series of conquests.
问题在于，光之山钻石是在一系列征服过程中被夺走的宝石。
As you say, it came to Britain following the Anglo-Sikh wars in the middle of the 19th century, and it was given a legal status, but it clearly was a spoil of war.
正如你所说，它在19世纪中叶的英锡克战争后来到英国，并获得了合法地位，但它显然是战利品。
But of course, it had only been in the hall, which is where it was taken from for — I can’t remember how long there, but decades — and had been taken before then by Ranjit Singh, who’s the Maharaja, from somebody that he had conquered, who had previously taken it.
当然，它只在大厅里被拿走——我不记得在那里多久了，但几十年了——之前是兰吉特·辛格（Ranjit Singh）从他征服过的某个人那里拿走的，他是大君，之前也曾拿过它。
It had been through Persia, it had been to the Mongols, been through Pakistan.
它经过波斯，经过蒙古，经过巴基斯坦。
Where do you choose your moment?
你会在哪里选择你的时刻？
It could be given to Lahore, given back to Pakistan, but then the Indians would say, “Well, hang on a second.
它可以给拉合尔，还给巴基斯坦，但印度人会说，“好吧，等一下。
You should have given it back to us because Babur, the Indian Mughal emperor — ”
你应该把它还给我们，因为印度莫卧儿皇帝巴布尔 —— ”
Flip a coin if you have to.
如果有必要的话，可以抛硬币。
Well, yes, you could do that.
嗯，是的，你可以这么做。
You could do that, but I’m not sure where it gets you, really.
你可以这么做，但我真的不确定它会给你带来什么。
Then you start saying, “Well, what about all the other things?” Do you go for a massive repatriation?
然后你开始说：“那么，其他的事情呢？”你会进行大规模遣返吗？
You’d empty a lot of museums, and I’m not sure you’d solve a lot of problems, really.
你会清空很多博物馆，而且我不确定你真的能解决很多问题吗？
It’s been there for a long time.
它已经存在很长时间了。
I don’t think there’s an easy solution.
我认为没有一个简单的解决方案。
I don’t think there’s a kind of act that you could take in relation to that stone, which would involve Britain saying, “Well, that’s fine.
我不认为你可以对那块石头采取某种行动，这会让英国说：“好吧，没关系。
We don’t need to have it anymore,” that would do anything other than cause infinitely more conflict and aggro because it would open up the whole question of all these other moments of conflict when the stone was taken.
我们不再需要它了，”这除了引起无限更多的冲突和仇恨之外，还会做任何事，因为当石头被拿走时，它会揭开所有其他冲突时刻的整个问题。
I just don’t see that gets you very far.
我只是不认为这能让你走得太远。
It’s not being used in the coronation, which I think is very wise, and it’s an object which can be seen and viewed and discussed by all of us.
它没有被用在加冕典礼上，我认为这是非常明智的，它是一个我们所有人都可以看到、观看和讨论的物体。
But I wouldn’t start passing it around the world, myself.
但我自己不会开始将它传播到世界各地。
Here’s a reader question: “Why do houses in Britain have so little storage?”
这是一个读者提问：“为什么英国的房子的存储空间这么少？”
Oh, that’s a very funny question.
哦，这是一个非常有趣的问题。
I didn’t know that they did.
我不知道他们这么做了。
Do houses in the States have lots more storage?
美国的房子有更多的存储空间吗？
I think they do.
我认为他们确实如此。
Yes, well, probably part of the reason is that houses in this country are, on the whole, very old houses.
是的，嗯，可能部分原因是这个国家的房子总体来说都是非常古老的房子。
The vast majority of our building stock in this country was built before the Second World War, in a time when the amount of garages and skis and snowboards and things that everybody needed to keep was considerably less.
我们国家的绝大多数建筑都是在第二次世界大战之前建造的，当时车库、滑雪板和滑雪板以及每个人需要保留的东西的数量要少得多。
And they were built for people who were used to living less expensive lives, less wealthy.
它们是为那些习惯于过着较便宜的生活、较不富裕的人们而建造的。
It’s probably a facet of that, really, as much as anything else, but it’ll make me look — when I next go to the States — look in some cupboards and see what the storage levels are.
这可能是其中的一个方面，真的，和其他任何事情一样，但它会让我看起来 - 当我下次去美国时 - 看看一些橱柜，看看存储水平是多少。
Now you live in Clifton House.
现在你住在克利夫顿之家。
It’s, what, an 800-year-old house in Norfolk?
这是，什么，诺福克一栋有 800 年历史的房子？
In parts, yes.
部分而言，是的。
What’s the hardest thing about living in a house that old?
住在这么旧的房子里最困难的是什么？
Keeping warm.
保持温暖。
It’s not always straightforward.
这并不总是那么简单。
Space heaters?
空间加热器？
That’s what they did in New Zealand.
这就是他们在新西兰所做的。
What do you do?
你做什么工作？
We light some fires.
我们点燃一些火。
That’s nice.
那很好。
Light fires.
轻火。
We wear a lot of socks and jumpers, and we also have a thing in this country — I don’t know if people go in for them in the States — which is called an electric blanket.
我们穿很多袜子和毛衣，而且我们在这个国家还有一个东西 ——我不知道在美国人们是否喜欢这样的东西 ——叫做电热毯。
Have you come across an electric blanket?
你遇到过电热毯吗？
Sure, of course.
当然，当然。
Again, a New Zealand thing as well.
同样，这也是新西兰的事情。
We love an electric blanket because you don’t need to heat your bedroom because you don’t need your bedroom too warm, but it doesn’t mean when you get into bed, you are not freezing.
我们喜欢电热毯，因为你不需要给你的卧室供暖，因为你不需要你的卧室太暖和，但这并不意味着当你上床睡觉时，你不会被冻住。
Keeping warm in the winter is a bit of a challenge, but mostly, it’s the most wonderful, delightful thing you could possibly imagine and a massive, massive privilege to live in a very old and beautiful building.
冬天保暖是一个挑战，但最重要的是，这是你能想象到的最美妙、最令人愉快的事情，也是住在一栋非常古老而美丽的建筑里的巨大、巨大的特权。
Do you have a dishwasher?
你有洗碗机吗？
We do have a dishwasher.
我们确实有洗碗机。
We didn’t for a long time because my husband, who’s a bit puritanical, said that he thought we shouldn’t, but I said, “Let’s put the plumbing in.” And he’s pretty grateful now.
我们很长一段时间都没有这样做，因为我有点清教徒的丈夫说他认为我们不应该这样做，但我说，“让我们把管道装进去吧。”他现在很感激。
How practical are thatched roofs?
茅草屋顶有多实用？
They’re pretty practical.
它们非常实用。
If you see a thatched roof, the thickness of the thatch is absolutely enormous, so it has very good thermal properties.
如果你看到茅草屋顶，茅草的厚度绝对是巨大的，因此它具有非常好的热性能。
It’s very good for biodiversity; lots of beetles live in them.
这对生物多样性非常有益；很多甲虫住在里面。
But they’re not cheap.
但它们并不便宜。
You need a wonderful thatcher to replace the thatch on a cycle every generation or so.
你需要一个很棒的茅草屋来每隔一代左右更换一次茅草屋。
They keep you very warm, and they’re very sustainable.
它们让你感到非常温暖，而且非常可持续。
They’re very low carbon, but they’re not cheap.
它们非常低碳，但并不便宜。
What could you tell us about windows in old homes that maybe we wouldn’t know?
关于老房子的窗户，您能告诉我们哪些我们可能不知道的事情吗？
Well, what I would say is that you must never underestimate just how much our ancestors cared about keeping warm.
好吧，我想说的是，你永远不要低估我们的祖先对保暖的关心程度。
You think we care about it, and the cost of warming our houses, but if you had to chop every log that warmed your sitting room, you’d pretty much be focused on it, too.
你认为我们关心它，以及为我们的房子取暖的成本，但如果你必须砍伐每根为你的客厅取暖的原木，你也会非常关注它。
But we often forget about the things that they did — which we ought to do, too — to keep warm: for example, really thick curtains with lining, which means that when you draw them, they really exclude all the heat, not something very flimsy.
但我们经常忘记他们所做的事情——我们也应该做——保暖：例如，非常厚的带衬里的窗帘，这意味着当你拉上它们时，它们确实排除了所有的热量，而不是非常脆弱的东西。
A lot of old buildings have shutters, which are also very, very good.
很多老建筑都有百叶窗，也是非常非常好的。
You use those in conjunction with the windows.
您可以将它们与 Windows 结合使用。
I think those things are really, really worth doing in your house.
我认为这些事情真的非常值得在你家里做。
As far as making sure that old windows are doing their job and keeping you warm, because there’s a real, real risk at the moment — with the completely correct focus on insulation in buildings — that all our beautiful old sash windows, with their wonderful handmade glass, get put in skips, and UPVC windows get put in instead.
至于确保旧窗户发挥其作用并让您保持温暖，因为目前存在一个真正的风险 - 完全正确地关注建筑物的隔热效果 - 我们所有漂亮的旧窗扇，带有精美的手工玻璃，都被放入料斗中，而改为安装UPVC窗户。
I think that it’s very important for all of us who care about this stuff to remind ourselves and remind each other about the things you can do that enable you to keep your beautiful windows, but also to make sure that you are not wasting energy.
我认为，对于我们所有关心这件事的人来说，提醒自己并提醒彼此可以做些什么来保持美丽的窗户，同时确保不浪费能源，这一点非常重要。
What makes the historical architecture of Norfolk so special?
是什么让诺福克的历史建筑如此特别？
One of the things that’s really interesting about Great Britain is, if you ever have one of those maps that you can get, which show the geology of the place that you live in, the country or the state you live in.
英国真正有趣的事情之一是，如果你有一张地图，你可以得到一张，它显示了你所居住的地方、你所居住的国家或州的地质情况。
It shows the stripes or the bands of different kinds of geology, whether it’s limestone or granite or chalk or whatever.
它显示了不同类型地质的条纹或带状，无论是石灰石、花岗岩、白垩还是其他什么。
If you look at one for Britain, it is amazing because there are so many different stripes of geology just to do with the way the world evolved geologically, which means that places in Britain that are very close to each other have completely different geology.
如果你看看英国，你会发现这是令人惊讶的，因为有这么多不同的地质条纹与世界地质演化的方式有关，这意味着英国彼此非常接近的地方有着完全不同的地质特征。
The reason that is interesting and relevant is, places are built overwhelmingly from the materials that you find locally.
有趣且相关的原因是，场所绝大多数是用您在当地找到的材料建造的。
When you have an old building stock like we do, that’s very vivid.
当你像我们一样拥有一栋古老的建筑时，那就非常生动了。
It’s expensive to transport materials, and so on.
运输材料等等都很昂贵。
One of the great pleasures, I would say, of traveling around the UK is that places that are maybe only 15 miles apart can look completely different because of that.
我想说，在英国旅行的最大乐趣之一是，相距仅 15 英里的地方可能因此看起来完全不同。
In the case of Norfolk, what it means is that Norfolk has no building stone.
就诺福克而言，这意味着诺福克没有建筑石料。
It has a lot of chalk, which has seams of flint in it.
它有很多粉笔，里面有燧石缝。
What you get are buildings in our part of the world which are overwhelmingly brick, very beautiful red brick that’s been fired locally from local brick earth.
在我们这个地区，你看到的建筑绝大多数是砖砌的，非常漂亮的红砖，是用当地的砖土在当地烧制而成的。
Then you get dressings of napped flint, which is a very beautiful black, knobbly stone.
然后你会得到绒毛燧石敷料，这是一种非常美丽的黑色、多节的石头。
If you go 20 miles east from us to get to Northamptonshire, there’s wonderful limestone, and everything is built of honeyed, beautiful stone.
如果您从我们这里向东 20 英里到达北安普敦郡，那里有美丽的石灰岩，一切都是用甜蜜、美丽的石头建造的。
It’s such a lovely thing about your connection with your environment.
你与环境的联系真是一件可爱的事情。
I feel that in this country, we are very lucky in this, that you have this tremendous local distinctiveness.
我觉得在这个国家，我们非常幸运，因为你们拥有如此巨大的地方特色。
You could open your eyes if you know about this stuff, and you could see, just by looking, which county of England you are in, and given all these places are very close together compared to the States, and quite often, which part of which county.
如果你了解这些东西，你可以睁开眼睛，只需看一下，你就可以看到你在英格兰的哪个县，并且考虑到所有这些地方与美国相比都非常接近，而且通常是哪个县的哪个部分。
Norfolk is very, very strongly brick.
诺福克是非常非常坚固的砖块。
It has beautiful brick merchants’ houses and buildings of the 16th, 17th, 18th century.
这里有美丽的砖商房屋和 16、17、18 世纪的建筑。
It has also some wonderful medieval churches because Norfolk was very, very wealthy.
它还有一些很棒的中世纪教堂，因为诺福克非常非常富有。
It’s the bulgy bit on the side of England, if you look at the map of England, on the right-hand side.
如果你看一下英格兰地图的右侧，那就是英格兰一侧凸出的部分。
It was the wealthiest part of England all the way through the Middle Ages because it was where all the sheep farming happened, and all of England’s wealth in the Middle Ages really came from the export of wool.
整个中世纪，它都是英格兰最富裕的地区，因为所有的养羊业都发生在这里，而中世纪英格兰的所有财富实际上都来自羊毛出口。
It had less of a 19th century also, right?
它也不像 19 世纪，对吧？
In the sense of less of an Industrial Revolution.
从工业革命的意义上来说。
Yes.
是的。
Prosperity was in the Middle Ages, and then it essentially disappeared from the league table of affluence in the UK, as the industrial towns of the north, which is where big-scale cotton production and so on really took off.
繁荣出现在中世纪，然后它基本上从英国的富裕排行榜上消失了，因为北部的工业城镇是大规模棉花生产等真正起飞的地方。
As a consequence, as a part of the UK, it is very, very beautiful.
因此，作为英国的一部分，它非常非常美丽。
It’s not very wealthy at all, and it’s very unurbanized because it essentially still has its kind of medieval and early modern landscape, both in terms of buildings and topography.
它根本不是很富裕，而且非常不城市化，因为它基本上仍然保留着中世纪和早期现代的景观，无论是在建筑还是地形方面。
Whereas, if you go — equally interesting, but just very different — somewhere like Manchester, which is amazing — world’s first industrial city, had this extraordinary explosion in the 19th century.
然而，如果你去 —— 同样有趣，但非常不同 —— 像曼彻斯特这样令人惊叹的地方 —— 世界上第一个工业城市，在 19 世纪经历了这场非凡的爆炸。
The railways were invented there.
铁路就是在那里发明的。
Everything was developing in a very different direction.
一切都在朝着截然不同的方向发展。
Three final questions.
最后三个问题。
First, which is your favorite John Fowles book, and why?
首先，您最喜欢约翰·福尔斯的哪本书，为什么？
I think it is The French Lieutenant’s Woman.
我认为这是《法国中尉的女人》。
I think it’s just an amazing novel.
我认为这只是一本很棒的小说。
It really, really bears rereading.
它真的非常值得重读。
It’s less fashionable now than it was maybe 20, 30 years ago, but it is tremendous.
现在它不像 20、30 年前那么流行，但它的影响力却非常巨大。
He wrote some pretty creepy other novels, one called The Collector, which I wouldn’t particularly recommend, amazing though it is.
他还写了一些相当令人毛骨悚然的其他小说，其中一本叫做《收藏家》，我不会特别推荐它，尽管它确实令人惊叹。
I think The French Lieutenant’s Woman, as a love story and as a dialogue with Victorian literature, is peerless.
我认为《法国中尉的女人》作为一个爱情故事以及与维多利亚时代文学的对话，是无与伦比的。
Who’s your favorite British composer, and why?
谁是你最喜欢的英国作曲家，为什么？
I think Handel, whose music, I hope, we will be hearing at the coronation, which is coming up next year.
我认为亨德尔，我希望我们能在明年的加冕典礼上听到他的音乐。
And you count him as a British composer.
你把他算作英国作曲家。
I do, yes.
我愿意，是的。
Okay, that’s fine.
好吧，没关系。
We claim him.
我们认领他。
Can you claim Haydn?
你能认出海顿吗？
Shaky, I would say.
我想说，摇摇欲坠。
He composes wonderful court music, which I love because that’s great.
他创作了美妙的宫廷音乐，我很喜欢，因为那很棒。
It’s an area that I’ve worked on.
这是我一直致力于的一个领域。
Before I ask you the last question, just to repeat for our listeners and readers, Anna’s book, which I’m a big fan of, is called The Restless Republic: Britain without a Crown.
在我问你最后一个问题之前，我想向我们的听众和读者重复一遍，安娜的书是我的忠实粉丝，书名叫《躁动的共和国：没有王冠的英国》。
If you type her name into Amazon, it’s pronounced Anna Kay, but you spell it K-E-A-Y.
如果你在亚马逊上输入她的名字，它的发音是 Anna Kay，但你拼写它是 K-E-A-Y。
Last and final question: What is it you will do next?
最后一个问题：接下来你会做什么？
I’m trying to save an amazing building outside Edinburgh, a house called Mavisbank, which was built in the 1720s for a man who was one of our great renaissance figures, the great pioneer of the Scottish Enlightenment.
我正在努力拯救爱丁堡郊外的一座令人惊叹的建筑，一座名为 Mavisbank 的房子，它建于 1720 年代，是为一位伟大的文艺复兴人物、苏格兰启蒙运动的伟大先驱之一而建造的。
It’s the most beautiful, beautiful house.
这是最美丽、最美丽的房子。
It’s derelict, just walls standing, but the ceilings and the roofs have fallen in, and it’s clinging onto life by its fingernails.
它已经被废弃，只有墙壁矗立着，但天花板和屋顶都已经塌陷，它只能靠指甲维持着生命。
My great hope for what I’m doing next is being able to raise the money to save it from collapse.
我对接下来要做的事情最大的希望是能够筹集到资金以挽救它免于崩溃。
Are we doing enough to preserve the Scottish Enlightenment?
我们是否为保护苏格兰启蒙运动做了足够的努力？
No.
不。
What else should we do?
我们还应该做什么？
Extra questions.
额外的问题。
Everything.
一切。
Everything, but what concretely?
一切，但具体是什么？
Well, there are all sorts of things.
嗯，有各种各样的事情。
The Scottish Enlightenment is such a completely gripping, extraordinary phenomenon that this tiny little country — my birthplace but micro little place on any worldview — through the course of the early and into the later 18th century, had such incredible influence around the world.
苏格兰启蒙运动是一个如此扣人心弦、非同寻常的现象，以至于这个小小的国家——“我的出生地，但在任何世界观中都微不足道”——从 18 世纪早期到后期，在世界范围内产生了如此令人难以置信的影响。
I think the buildings of that period, the political thought, the poetry — all these things we should all know more about, we should teach it more to our children, and we should celebrate it.
我认为那个时期的建筑、政治思想、诗歌——所有这些我们都应该更多地了解，我们应该更多地教给我们的孩子，我们应该庆祝它。
If you’re recommending one thing for people to read on the Scottish Enlightenment, what is it?
如果您向人们推荐一本书来阅读有关苏格兰启蒙运动的内容，它是什么？
Well, there’s a very good new book that your listeners might be interested in, called Scotland: The Global History, written by someone called Murray Pittock, that came out early this year.
嗯，您的听众可能会对一本非常好的新书感兴趣，名为《苏格兰：全球历史》，作者是默里·皮托克（Murray Pittock），今年年初出版。
It is a wonderful account of how, from the mid-17th century, Scotland — as I say, a tiny little country with a minuscule population — came to have such incredible global reach in terms of science, technology, thought, politics, music, so much.
这本书精彩地讲述了从 17 世纪中叶开始，苏格兰——正如我所说，一个人口极少的小国——如何在科学、技术、思想、政治、音乐等方面拥有令人难以置信的全球影响力。
Yes, that’s a good place to start.
是的，这是一个很好的起点。
Anna has numerous other books, all of which I’ve enjoyed.
安娜还有很多其他的书，我都很喜欢。
Anna, thank you very much.
安娜，非常感谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢。