Andrew Sullivan on Braving New Intellectual Journeys (Ep. 129)
Hello everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
大家好，欢迎回到与泰勒对话。
Today I’m here with Andrew Sullivan.
今天我和安德鲁·沙利文在一起。
Andrew needs no introduction, but it is worth noting, he has a new book that just came out called Out on a Limb: Selected Writing, 1989–2021.
安德鲁不需要介绍，但值得注意的是，他刚刚出版了一本新书，名为《断肢：精选写作，1989-2021》。
I would say, if you would like one single all-purpose introduction to Andrew Sullivan, this is the book.
我想说，如果你想要一本关于安德鲁·沙利文的通用介绍，这就是这本书。
Andrew, welcome.
安德鲁，欢迎。
Thank you, Tyler.
谢谢你，泰勒。
I’m thrilled to be here, and that’s correct: the whole point of doing this book was to say, OK, you hear all this stuff about me — well, here it is.
我很高兴来到这里，这是正确的：写这本书的全部目的就是说，好吧，你听到了所有关于我的事情 - 好吧，就是这样。
This is the actual bulk of the work.
这是实际的大部分工作。
I hope people dip in and out of it.
我希望人们能够沉浸其中。
It’s not supposed to be a first-page-to-last-page read, but it’s an attempt to just clarify a little bit what I’ve been writing for the last 30 years.
它不应该是从第一页到最后一页阅读，但它只是试图澄清一点我过去 30 年所写的内容。
I’m hoping to show that there is a consistency to it.
我希望表明它具有一致性。
I’m not entirely consistent, obviously, because I’ve changed and the world has changed; but also as a way to just show the history of the last 30 years, because the thing is arranged chronologically.
显然，我并不完全一致，因为我变了，世界也变了；而且也是为了展示过去 30 年的历史，因为事情是按时间顺序排列的。
That’s the idea of the book — if you just give a good intro to my various obsessions, passions, beliefs, ideas, and arguments over the last 30 years.
这就是这本书的主旨——如果你能很好地介绍一下我在过去 30 年里的各种痴迷、激情、信仰、想法和论点。
On the Andrew Sullivan production function
关于安德鲁沙利文生产函数
Now since I’ve nominated you as the most influential public intellectual of our generation, I would like to start with some questions about the Andrew Sullivan production function.
既然我提名您为我们这一代最有影响力的公共知识分子，我想先问一些关于安德鲁·沙利文生产函数的问题。
Okey doke.
好吧，多克。
So let’s go back in time.
那么让我们回到过去。
At some point you learn you’re HIV/AIDS-positive.
在某些时候，您得知自己是艾滋病毒/艾滋病阳性。
How did that possible risk of premature death affect your productivity over the longer run — because you have done an enormous amount, as is shown in the book?
从长远来看，这种可能的过早死亡风险如何影响你的生产力 ——因为你已经做了很多工作，正如书中所示？
It obviously didn’t.
显然没有。
In fact, it propelled me to write more.
事实上，它促使我写更多。
How so?
为何如此？
Well, for example, Virtually Normal — it’s a book I wrote in 1995, which was basically the first book laying out the arguments for overhauling the gay rights movement and making marriage equality and military service its central features — I would not have written had I not realized I had, or thought I had, maybe a few years to live.
嗯，举个例子，《几乎正常》——这是我在 1995 年写的一本书，基本上是第一本阐述彻底改革同性恋权利运动并将婚姻平等和兵役作为其核心特征的论点的书——如果我没有意识到自己还有几年的寿命，或者以为自己还有几年的寿命，我就不会写这本书。
I decided that if I was going to die in my mid-30s, which is what everyone seemed to think would happen even though they were a little optimistic about it at the time — but I wasn’t — I wanted to leave something behind.
我决定，如果我要在 30 多岁的时候死去，这似乎是每个人都认为会发生的事情，尽管他们当时对此有点乐观 —— 但我不是 —— 我想留下一些东西。
I wanted to leave behind my best argument for this simple civil rights reform.
我想为这个简单的民权改革留下我最好的论据。
They allowed me to take leave at the New Republic in 1994.
1994年，他们允许我在新共和酒店休假。
I seroconverted in 1993.
我在 1993 年进行了血清转化。
In fact, the foreword of the book has a little date under it, which is the date of my seroconversion — so that I put in the book a clear sign of why I was doing that.
事实上，这本书的前言下面有一个小日期，那就是我进行血清转化的日期 ——所以我在书中清楚地表明了我为什么要这样做。
In other words, I felt I didn’t have much time left, and I needed to do everything I could.
换句话说，我觉得自己的时间不多了，我需要尽我所能。
Then, also, I just also believed and felt that this was an enormous story, this extraordinary plague that devastated a small community, really, in the context of a very large community that really wasn’t that affected, and how that changed a lot of people’s minds and hearts and how it was the thing that propelled us, in a way, to make the civil rights arguments of the next couple of decades.
然后，我也相信并感觉到这是一个巨大的故事，这场非同寻常的瘟疫摧毁了一个小社区，实际上，在一个没有受到太大影响的非常大的社区的背景下，以及它如何改变了很多人的思想和心灵，以及它如何在某种程度上推动我们在接下来的几十年里提出民权论点。
I don’t believe that without AIDS, we would have marriage equality today.
我不相信如果没有艾滋病，我们今天就不会有婚姻平等。
I just don’t.
我只是不知道。
If we fast forward to today, let’s say you were to learn that you had only four years left to live, but most of it in healthy mind and body — what is it you would do right now, knowing that?
如果我们快进到今天，假设你得知自己只剩下四年的生命了，但大部分时间都保持健康的身心 ——知道这一点后，你现在会做什么？
That’s a really good question.
这是一个非常好的问题。
The good news is that back when it happened to me before, I realized that I was doing the work I really wanted to be doing.
好消息是，当这件事发生在我身上时，我意识到我正在做我真正想做的工作。
It was very clarifying, editing the New Republic.
《新共和》的编辑非常清晰。
Right now, I love to do what I’m doing, but I will be honest and say I think I would take time to spend more time with my friends and my family.
现在，我喜欢做我正在做的事情，但我会诚实地说，我认为我会花更多的时间与我的朋友和家人在一起。
I would try and travel some more because I haven’t really done enough of that, even though it’s a little hard right now.
我会尝试更多地旅行，因为我做得还不够，尽管现在有点困难。
I’d probably up my intake of mushrooms; I think I would try and gain some perspective on mortality.
我可能会增加蘑菇的摄入量；我想我会尝试对死亡率有一些看法。
I think I would become probably much more devout than I currently am.
我想我可能会变得比现在更加虔诚。
But these are suppositions.
但这些都是假设。
You kind of learn —
你可以学习 —
Why not become more devout now?
为什么现在不变得更加虔诚呢？
I’m a human being, and death is the ultimate reminder of ultimate reality.
我是一个人，死亡是终极现实的终极提醒。
We can push that out of our heads all the time and carry on quite normally, but the prospect of dying really does concentrate not just the mind but the soul, and you have to figure that out.
我们可以一直把它从我们的头脑中排除掉并正常地生活，但是死亡的前景确实不仅集中了思想，而且集中了灵魂，你必须弄清楚这一点。
Of course, I should feel those things now; I should — we all should — and that’s the paradox of this.
当然，我现在就应该感受到那些东西；我应该——我们都应该——这就是这个悖论。
We know that there’s a difference between a life of doing and a life of being, and sometimes because our default-mode network kicks in, as it were, we spend much too much time doing things than being something — and so that’s the paradox.
我们知道，做事的生活和存在的生活是有区别的，有时，因为我们的默认模式网络启动了，我们花了太多的时间做事，而不是做某事——所以这就是悖论。
We know that there’s a difference between a life of doing and a life of being, and sometimes because our default-mode network kicks in, as it were, we spend much too much time doing things than being something.
我们知道，做事的生活和存在的生活是有区别的，有时，因为我们的默认模式网络启动了，我们花太多时间做事，而不是成为某事。
I know there were moments in my life when, presented with mortality, I got a very crisper sense of God, of my own life and the universe.
我知道在我生命中的某些时刻，面对死亡，我对上帝、我自己的生命和宇宙有了更清晰的认识。
Then, over time, you just get caught up in the mundane and the everyday and the frustrations, and you lose that perspective.
然后，随着时间的推移，你就会陷入平凡、日常生活和挫折之中，你就会失去这种观点。
I know there were moments in my life when, presented with mortality, I got a very crisper sense of God, of my own life and the universe.
我知道在我生命中的某些时刻，面对死亡，我对上帝、我自己的生命和宇宙有了更清晰的认识。
Then, over time, you just get caught up in the mundane and the everyday and the frustrations, and you lose that perspective.
然后，随着时间的推移，你就会陷入平凡、日常生活和挫折之中，你就会失去这种观点。
Now you’ve taken quite a few intellectual risks in your career.
现在，您在职业生涯中已经冒了相当多的智力风险。
If you look at our intellectuals and public intellectuals as a whole, what do you think is the most fundamental reason why they lack courage?
如果你把我们的知识分子和公共知识分子作为一个整体来看，你认为他们缺乏勇气的最根本原因是什么？
These are good questions, Tyler.
这些都是好问题，泰勒。
I think I’ve been struck over the last few years, specifically, at how many journalists, especially, or public intellectuals are very much members of their own class and are extremely concerned, perhaps more than ever, what their own peers think about them — and so are actually very, very vulnerable to social pressure.
我想，在过去的几年里，我特别震惊的是，有多少记者，尤其是公共知识分子，在很大程度上是他们自己阶级的成员，并且非常关心，也许比以往任何时候都更关心他们自己的同龄人对他们的看法——因此实际上非常非常容易受到社会压力的影响。
I think that means you don’t want to take risks if you want to have a good career in intellectual journalism.
我认为这意味着如果你想在知识新闻领域拥有一份好的职业生涯，你就不想冒险。
You don’t want to alienate your peers, and increasingly your peers are all taken from a pretty narrow socioeconomic base, who hold very similar opinions — and that’s become truer over the last 20 years.
你不想疏远你的同龄人，而且越来越多的你的同龄人都来自相当狭窄的社会经济基础，他们持有非常相似的观点 ——而且在过去 20 年里这一点变得更加真实。
The career and psychological and social costs of going “out on a limb” are quite considerable.
“孤注一掷”的职业、心理和社会成本是相当可观的。
I think I am lucky, to some extent, to have a life that’s really not socializing with all those peers.
我认为，在某种程度上，我很幸运，能够过着不与同龄人交往的生活。
My friends are a very eclectic bunch of people and almost none of them — a few of them are, but a lot of them are not — in journalism or in public intellectual life at all.
我的朋友们是一群非常不拘一格的人，他们几乎没有人（其中有一些人是，但很多人不是）从事新闻业或公共知识分子生活。
What accounts for that?
这是什么原因？
What variable in you, in them, has led that to be the equilibrium?
你和他们身上的什么变量导致了这种平衡？
Part of it is being gay, because you inevitably develop a social network that is independent of your professional network because that’s how you socialize in many ways, and from that, you generate a different kind of perspective.
部分原因是同性恋，因为你不可避免地会建立一个独立于你的职业网络的社交网络，因为这就是你以多种方式进行社交的方式，并由此产生不同的观点。
Also, I don’t know, I just get bored and irritated by my peers.
另外，我不知道，我只是对同龄人感到无聊和恼怒。
I’d much rather listen and talk to someone with a completely different perspective.
我更愿意倾听并与具有完全不同观点的人交谈。
My best friend plays jazz piano, for example, and we talk about everything.
例如，我最好的朋友弹爵士钢琴，我们无所不谈。
We talk about politics, but he comes from a place where I can sit down with him and say, “What do you think about this?
我们谈论政治，但他来自一个我可以和他坐下来问的地方：“你对此有何看法？
You haven’t processed this immeasurably, but what do you think?” Most ordinary people outside of that circle will ask all sorts of very straightforward questions that my peers haven’t even thought about, and will see things from a different perspective.
你还没有处理好这件事，但你觉得怎么样？”大多数圈子之外的普通人都会问各种我的同龄人从未想过的非常直接的问题，并且会从不同的角度看待事情。
I also think the fact that I come from basically a non-college-educated family, so that I grew up with people who didn’t have those esoterical, those academic skills, and certainly not the social skills to belong in the upper-middle classes —
我还认为，我基本上来自一个没有受过大学教育的家庭，所以我和那些没有那些深奥的、那些学术技能的人一起长大，当然也没有属于中上阶层的社交技能 ——
Same with me, I might add.
跟我一样，我可以补充一下。
Well, and so you get used to real conversations about people, and you don’t mistake credentials for intelligence.
嗯，所以你习惯了关于人的真实对话，并且你不会将凭据误认为是情报。
You realize that people outside of the system may be more perceptive about what’s going wrong with it than people buried within it.
你意识到系统之外的人可能比系统内的人更能洞察系统的问题。
I honestly find life more interesting the more variety of people you get to know and meet.
老实说，我发现你认识和遇到的人越多，生活就越有趣。
And that means from all sorts of different ways of life.
这意味着来自各种不同的生活方式。
The good thing about being gay, I will tell you, is that that happens more often than if you’re straight — because it’s a great equalizer.
我会告诉你，同性恋的好处是，这种情况比异性恋更容易发生——因为这是一个很好的均衡器。
You are more likely to come across someone who really is from a totally different socioeconomic group than you are through sexual and romantic attraction, and indeed the existence of this subterranean world that is taken from every other particular class and structure, than you would if you just grew up in a straight world where you didn’t have to question these things and where your social life was bound up with your work or with your professional peers.
你更有可能通过性和浪漫的吸引力，以及这个来自其他特定阶级和结构的地下世界的存在，遇到一个真正来自与你完全不同的社会经济群体的人，而不是如果你只是在一个正常的世界中长大，在那里你不必质疑这些事情，你的社交生活与你的工作或与你的职业同行紧密相连。
The idea for me of dating someone in my office would be absolutely bizarre, for example.
例如，对我来说，与办公室里的某人约会的想法绝对是奇怪的。
I can’t believe all these straight people that just look around them and say, “Oh, let’s get married.” Whereas gay people have this immense social system that can throw up anybody from any way of life into your social circle.
我不敢相信这些异性恋的人环顾四周就说：“哦，我们结婚吧。”而同性恋者拥有庞大的社会体系，可以将任何生活方式的任何人推入你的社交圈。
The idea for me of dating someone in my office would be absolutely bizarre, for example.
例如，对我来说，与办公室里的某人约会的想法绝对是奇怪的。
I can’t believe all these straight people that just look around them and say, “Oh, let’s get married.” Whereas gay people have this immense social system that can throw up anybody from any way of life into your social circle.
我不敢相信这些异性恋的人环顾四周就说：“哦，我们结婚吧。”而同性恋者拥有庞大的社交体系，可以将任何生活方式的任何人引入你的社交圈。
Your nongay friends you think are in some ways more conformist than your gay friends, issues of sex aside?
除了性问题之外，你认为你的非同性恋朋友在某些方面比你的同性恋朋友更墨守成规？
There’s a sense in which simply —
从某种意义上来说，简单地 ——
No, because my nongay friends — it’s also true that my nongay friends who are not part of the elite are also similar to that.
不，因为我的非同性恋朋友们 ——事实上，我的那些不属于精英阶层的非同性恋朋友也有类似的情况。
They have a different perspective.
他们有不同的观点。
But yes, I find them to be often more questioning, more curious, and more capable of asking basic questions and not taking things for granted than many of my peers, which makes them better, which is why I think journalists are better off coming from ordinary people — like working-class journalists who knew people, who knew reality, weren’t caught up in ideology or orthodoxy or have any interest in their social peers, and were just interested in getting to a story or breaking a story or finding something out, regardless of the consequences.
但是，是的，我发现他们往往比我的许多同龄人更善于提问，更好奇，更有能力提出基本问题，不会把事情视为理所当然，这让他们变得更好，这就是为什么我认为记者最好来自普通人 ——就像工人阶级记者一样，他们了解人们，了解现实，不陷入意识形态或正统观念，也不对他们的社会同侪感兴趣，而只是对了解一个故事或打破一个故事或发现一些东西感兴趣出去，不顾后果。
That’s the kind of journalism I like, and finding a way to make yourself popular among certain elites is just not something I ever wanted to do.
这就是我喜欢的新闻工作，而找到一种让自己在某些精英中受欢迎的方法并不是我想做的事情。
I’ll tell you this: I’m also just not that big a socializing person.
我告诉你：我也不是一个善于社交的人。
I tend to have friends that are very individual, one on one.
我倾向于拥有非常个性化的一对一的朋友。
I tend to hang out with small groups of people.
我倾向于和一小群人一起出去玩。
I don’t have parties; I don’t go to parties.
我没有聚会；我不参加聚会。
I’m just not a clubbable person.
我只是一个不喜欢去俱乐部的人。
I’ve never easily fit in to any institution that I belong to, and that’s just my personality.
我从来都不会轻易融入我所属的任何机构，这就是我的个性。
Putting aside issues of sex, but how do your conversations with your gay friends differ from those with your nongay friends?
抛开性问题不谈，但你与同性恋朋友的谈话与与非同性恋朋友的谈话有何不同？
We are more candid with each other, I think.
我认为我们彼此更加坦诚。
We’re certainly more candid about affairs of the heart.
我们对于内心的事情当然更加坦诚。
There’s a frankness and rudeness and sense of humor that is hard to explain outside of its particular context.
其中有一种坦率、粗鲁和幽默感，在特定的背景之外很难解释。
But I don’t want to give you the impression that my nongay friends are somehow in some boring category; they’re not at all.
但我不想给你这样的印象：我的非同性恋朋友在某种程度上属于某种无聊的类别；他们根本不是。
I’m talking more about my straight peers within my profession rather than my regular nongay friends in real life.
我更多地谈论的是我职业中的异性恋同事，而不是现实生活中我的普通非同性恋朋友。
Taking a hetero person such as myself, if I want more of this element at the margin that you have with your gay friends, what’s the needed input to produce that?
以像我这样的异性恋者为例，如果我想要更多的这种元素，就像你和你的同性恋朋友一样，那么需要什么投入来实现这一点？
I think it’s going to places you wouldn’t otherwise go, meeting people who are new, finding a way outside your own circle of friends, your own socioeconomic status.
我认为它会去你本来不会去的地方，结识新朋友，在你自己的朋友圈和你自己的社会经济地位之外找到一条出路。
One thing that I was talking to Charles Murray about, actually, was how he does his poker game that he plays with just regular folks in a casino.
事实上，我和查尔斯·默里谈论的一件事是他如何在赌场里与普通人一起玩扑克游戏。
It’s a regular thing that he does.
这是他经常做的事情。
None of them are from his way of life.
这些都不是他的生活方式。
But it’s a great way to get in touch with how people genuinely feel outside of the chattering classes.
但这是了解人们在闲聊课堂之外的真实感受的好方法。
And I think that’s the gain.
我认为这就是收获。
I’m not helping you very much here, am I, with the — I don’t want to give the impression gay people are somehow more fun, or — I’m just saying you’re more likely to randomly come across someone who’s not part of your scene or your class or your race, for that matter, as a gay person, simply because as a gay man, especially, the sexual and social dynamics are utterly independent of professional, intellectual, or ideological dynamics.
我在这里并没有给你太多帮助，是吗？——我不想给人留下同性恋者在某种程度上更有趣的印象，或者——我只是说你更有可能随机遇到一个不属于你的场景、你的阶级或你的种族的人，就此而言，作为一个同性恋者，仅仅是因为作为一个同性恋者，特别是，性和社会动态完全独立于职业、智力或意识形态动态。
And so, essentially, you become friends with someone because you’ve seen them a lot at a gym or a bar or at a restaurant, and it just becomes that; it doesn’t become, What did you do?
所以，本质上，你和某人成为朋友是因为你在健身房、酒吧或餐厅经常见到他们，事情就变成了这样；它不会变成，你做了什么？
What do you do?
你做什么工作？
How do you make a living?
你如何谋生？
And so on and so forth.
等等。
On self-medication
关于自我药疗
You mentioned before mushrooms.
你之前提到过蘑菇。
How do you think that self-medication — whether it be mushrooms, marijuana, testosterone, something else — influences the actual content of your ideas?
你认为自我药疗——“无论是蘑菇、大麻、睾丸激素还是其他东西”——如何影响你的想法的实际内容？
Of course it influences them.
当然，这对他们有影响。
Let me give you an example.
让我举个例子。
I’m a daily weed smoker.
我每天都吸大麻。
I have been since I was 36; I was a late bloomer on this.
我从36岁就开始了；我在这方面是个大器晚成的人。
For me, what that does — I never work under the influence of any substance; this is always outside of the work hours.
对我来说，这意味着什么 —— 我从来不在任何物质的影响下工作；我从来没有在任何物质的影响下工作。这总是在工作时间之外。
I’m not crazy.
我没有疯。
I don’t really drink anything.
我真的不喝任何东西。
Weed will happen at the end of the day.
杂草最终会发生。
What I find that marijuana does, and to some extent — mushrooms definitely do, meditation does as well — is that they suppress the ego.
我发现大麻的作用，以及在某种程度上——“蘑菇肯定有作用，冥想也有作用”——它们会抑制自我。
They weaken the ego.
他们削弱了自我。
If you write something, as I often do, and finish it (or a first draft) and then smoke something and then go and take a walk, and just let my ego disappear a little bit and let me look at what I’ve personally done as if I were looking at something someone else had done, with that same kind of dispassion, then you’re like, “I got that wrong.” Or “why did I miss that?” Or “that’s stupid.” Or “maybe if I turned the thing around — ”
如果你像我经常做的那样写了一些东西，完成它（或初稿），然后抽点东西，然后去散步，让我的自我消失一点，让我看看我个人做过的事情，就像我在看别人做过的事情一样，带着同样的冷静，那么你会说，“我错了。”或者“为什么我错过了？”或者“这太愚蠢了”。或者“也许如果我扭转局面 —— ”
You’re less attached to your own pride.
你不太执着于自己的骄傲。
Your mind is taken out of its normal rut.
你的思维脱离了正常的思维模式。
So you change your mind more?
所以你改变主意了？
Yes.
是的。
Yes!
是的！
Also true with something like MDMA.
对于 MDMA 之类的东西也是如此。
I remember, for example, writing Virtually Normal, which was this very tightly argued, cerebral book.
例如，我记得写过《几乎正常》，这是一本争论非常激烈的、理智的书。
Then, after I’d finished the gut of it, I went to celebrate with some friends.
然后，在我完成了它的内容后，我去和一些朋友一起庆祝。
We went out dancing; I did some MDMA.
我们出去跳舞；我吃了一些摇头丸。
In the middle of the dance floor, I was like, “You know what?
在舞池中央，我想，“你知道吗？
I haven’t put in this book at all why I care about this subject, why it matters to me.
我根本没有在这本书中说明为什么我关心这个主题，为什么它对我很重要。
I’m being too abstract here.” That’s when I went back and then I wrote the introduction and then the epilogue, which were much less intellectual and more experiential.
我在这里太抽象了。”就在那时，我回去写了引言和尾声，这些内容的知识性要少得多，而更多的是经验性的。
They are the most popular parts of the book.
它们是本书中最受欢迎的部分。
You allow yourself to realize you might have made a mistake.
你让自己意识到你可能犯了一个错误。
You might have made just simply a factual error, which happens to everybody and you wake up in the middle of the night, or you just realize maybe that judgment you became too attached to because you were too proud to let go of it.
你可能只是犯了一个事实性的错误，每个人都会遇到这种情况，然后你在半夜醒来，或者你只是意识到你可能过于执着于那个判断，因为你太骄傲而无法放弃它。
Taking a moment to take your pride out of it and take your ego out of it gives you some possibility after hours of reassessing your work.
花点时间放下你的骄傲，放下你的自负，在几个小时的重新评估你的工作后，你会得到一些可能性。
Also, the thing that happened with blogging was that because you were constantly writing, you had to constantly account for changes in mood, in argument, and in your opinions — because it charts you day by day, hour by hour.
此外，博客所发生的事情是，因为你不断地写作，你必须不断地考虑情绪、争论和观点的变化——因为它日复一日、每小时记录着你的情况。
That was another thing that got me to shift my opinions.
这是另一件事让我改变了我的观点。
The testosterone, I think, does give you a certain amount of energy, and I have to be careful because it’s every two weeks — it’s only 1 cc; it’s not a massive amount — but the next two days I have to be careful I don’t pop off on something.
我认为睾丸激素确实会给你一定的能量，但我必须小心，因为每两周一次 —— 只有 1 cc；这不是一个很大的金额 —— 但是接下来的两天我必须小心，不要突然发生什么事情。
It’s funny: my colleague, Chris Bodenner, used to tell when I’d just taken a shot because somehow I just fire off this incredibly passionate rant or something.
这很有趣：我的同事克里斯·博登纳（Chris Bodenner）过去常常告诉我什么时候我刚刚开枪，因为不知何故我只是发出了这种令人难以置信的热情咆哮之类的东西。
I have to be aware of that too.
我也必须意识到这一点。
We are a function of everything.
我们是一切事物的函数。
I could just as well say that eating, as I used to, sugar and cookies all morning as I wrote The Dish gave me this wiry focus, but we’re all a mix of chemicals.
我也可以说，像以前一样，在我写《菜》的整个早上，吃糖和饼干给了我这种难以集中的注意力，但我们都是化学物质的混合物。
What kind of mental process do you use to try to decide if a new idea you have is just the result of bias from substances?
您使用什么样的心理过程来尝试确定您的新想法是否只是物质偏见的结果？
Or do you just think, “Well, some of them will be biased, but it’s more important to innovate so I’m going to double down on this.” How do those thoughts go?
或者你只是想，“好吧，其中一些人会有偏见，但创新更重要，所以我会加倍努力。”这些想法如何进行？
I literally have a little book called Highdeas, which is ideas I’ve had when I’m high.
我确实有一本叫《Highdeas》的小书，里面写的是我兴奋时的想法。
And I write them down — but then I make sure I look at them totally sober.
我把它们写下来 —— 但随后我确保我完全清醒地看待它们。
I would say about three-quarters of them are nuts and I throw them out, and a quarter —
我想说大约四分之三的人都是疯子，我把他们扔掉，还有四分之一 -
This is the book we want you to publish in your last four years.
这是我们希望您在过去四年中出版的书。
— good highdeas, things I can’t really say or think about.
— 好极了，我无法真正说出或思考的事情。
But I just let my mind wander.
但我只是让我的思绪飘荡。
I’m just a curious person.
我只是一个好奇的人。
I love thinking about stuff.
我喜欢思考一些事情。
I think my mind can go down a rabbit hole.
我想我的思绪可能会掉进兔子洞。
This was part of the problem with me for a long time: I had terrible insomnia until I found cannabis in my late 30s.
长期以来，这一直是我的一个问题：我失眠得很严重，直到 30 多岁时我发现了大麻。
Some of us have minds that just won’t stop and it can be an ordeal.
我们中的一些人的思想不会停止，这可能是一种磨难。
It’s not for lack of — I’m not going to not think while I’m on weed or even when I’m on MDMA.
这并不是因为缺乏 —— 当我吸食大麻甚至吸食摇头丸时，我不会不思考。
I find, for example, on MDA mushrooms, it’s all theology for me.
例如，我发现 MDA 蘑菇对我来说就是神学。
It’s all about God.
一切都是关于神。
It’s all about the relationship between the Trinity, the possibility of the Incarnation — these things are what I become obsessed with when I’m really on mushrooms or MDMA or the hallucinogens.
这一切都与三位一体之间的关系、化身的可能性有关——当我真正沉迷于蘑菇、摇头丸或致幻剂时，这些都是我所着迷的。
Yes, it becomes all about Christianity in a very weird way.
是的，它以一种非常奇怪的方式变成了基督教。
You know it was Herodotus who first suggested the idea of examining all ideas, both when sober and when drunk —
你知道是希罗多德首先提出了检验所有想法的想法，无论是清醒的还是醉酒的时候 ——
Oh really.
哦，真的。
— to see if they were good.
— 看看它们是否好。
It helps, because the more ways you can look at a topic, perhaps the more you’ll understand it, to be honest; but I think the main thing is ego.
这很有帮助，因为说实话，你看待一个主题的方式越多，也许你对它的理解就越多。但我认为最主要的是自我。
The main thing is the ego bias.
最主要的是自我偏见。
We don’t want to be wrong, and certainly, if we’ve taken a position, it’s really hard for us to accept that we screwed up.
我们不想犯错，当然，如果我们采取了立场，我们就很难接受我们搞砸了。
Given that you didn’t come from a fancy background, who first noticed your talent, and how?
鉴于您出身并不出名，谁最先注意到您的才华，又是如何注意到的？
It was kind of a shock.
这有点令人震惊。
When I was in elementary school — and this will tell you a certain amount about me — there was an exam that they sit, that you can sit for back in those days, called the eleven-plus, which was an IQ test essentially.
当我上小学的时候————这会告诉你一些关于我的信息————他们有一个考试，你可以在那个时候参加，叫做十一加，本质上是一个智商测试。
I was just a kid in elementary school, and I was about to graduate and go to high school.
我当时只是个上小学的孩子，马上就要毕业，上高中了。
They set this test and then my head teacher brought my parents in and I thought I was in trouble.
他们设置了这个测试，然后我的班主任把我的父母带进来，我以为我遇到了麻烦。
It turned out I had the highest score in the county or something.
原来我的成绩是全县最高的什么的。
That was when I was told I was very smart.
就在那时我被告知我很聪明。
I wasn’t really aware of it until then.
直到那时我才真正意识到这一点。
I got sent to this super magnet school, which was wonderful, and for people from all backgrounds who just were over certain level of IQ — a kind of Stuyvesant, a kind of magnet school.
我被送到了这所超级磁石学校，这真是太棒了，对于来自不同背景、智商超过一定水平的人来说，这是一种史岱文森特，一种磁石学校。
And then within the first month, they graded everyone on all the topics and put the list of 1 to 30 in the class on the wall.
然后在第一个月内，他们对每个人的所有主题进行评分，并将班级中 1 到 30 名的名单贴在墙上。
And I was number one, which was another huge shock to me.
我获得了第一，这对我来说是另一个巨大的震惊。
So that’s how I found out.
我就是这么发现的。
I was not really aware that I was that bright, but the system found me and this is why I’m a pretty passionate defender of SATs and IQ tests in general, to find kids who otherwise would be missed, especially kids from poorer backgrounds who have native ability but haven’t had a chance to show that and whose parents could not have afforded — My parents could not have afforded to send me to any school where we’d have to pay.
我并没有真正意识到我那么聪明，但系统发现了我，这就是为什么我是 SAT 和智商测试的热情捍卫者，寻找否则会被错过的孩子，特别是来自贫困背景的孩子，他们有天生的能力，但没有机会展示这一点，而且他们的父母负担不起 —— 我的父母不可能负担得起送我去任何我们必须付费的学校。
So that was how it happened.
事情就是这样发生的。
On Niall Ferguson, Boris Johnson, and British politics
关于尼尔·弗格森、鲍里斯·约翰逊和英国政治
Now, as an undergraduate, you knew and were friends with Niall Ferguson.
现在，作为一名本科生，您认识尼尔·弗格森，并且成为了朋友。
What was he like back then?
那时的他是什么样子呢？
Pretty much the same.
几乎一样。
We were a little wilder, to be honest.
老实说，我们有点狂野。
We were a little brassier and a little more interested in just comedy.
我们更加勇敢一点，对喜剧更感兴趣。
We published a little ramshackle magazine that poked fun at the toffs, at the Etonians.
我们出版了一本摇摇欲坠的小杂志，取笑伊顿公学的权贵们。
We both thought of ourselves a little bit as what we’d call grammar school boys, who weren’t part of the elite, but we got in because of our brains.
我们都认为自己有点像我们所谓的文法学校男孩，他们不属于精英阶层，但我们因为我们的大脑而进入了精英阶层。
We were a little contemptuous of one of our peers, for example: Boris Johnson, who was also there at the same time.
我们对一位同行有点蔑视，例如：鲍里斯·约翰逊（Boris Johnson），他同时也在场。
This is what happens in England.
这就是英格兰发生的事情。
It’s a very close — it’s a very small elite, in a way.
从某种程度上来说，这是一个非常接近的精英群体。
I also went to high school — sat next to — Keir Starmer for six years, who’s now the leader of the opposition.
我也读过高中——在凯尔·斯塔默（Keir Starmer）旁边坐了六年，他现在是反对派领袖。
So it’s amazing that in my own education, just by chance, I became friends with the current leader of the opposition and the prime minister.
因此，令人惊奇的是，在我自己的教育中，偶然的机会，我与现任反对党领袖和总理成为了朋友。
Given that you knew him then, what insight do you have into the Boris Johnson administration that the rest of us would not?
鉴于您当时就认识他，您对鲍里斯·约翰逊政府有哪些我们其他人没有的见解？
He’s a charmer and a liar and hilarious.
他是一个有魅力的人，一个骗子，而且很搞笑。
On purpose, hilarious.
故意的，搞笑。
Yes.
是的。
He was an Etonian who showed up — and all of the Etonians (people who came from Eton, the highest fancy school in Britain) —
他是一名伊顿公学学生，他出现了 ——以及所有伊顿公学学生（来自英国最高学府伊顿公学的人） ——
Unlike the other Etonians who came to Oxford and decided, “Well, we’ve got to downplay this, we’ve got to be — got to wear regular clothes and alter our accent” — no, Boris came and said, “Instead of fighting it, I’m going to just turn into a caricature of an upper-class twit.” Have you ever seen the Monty Python sketch of the — ?
与其他来到牛津的伊顿公学学生不同，他们决定，“好吧，我们必须淡化这一点，我们必须‘穿普通衣服并改变我们的口音’”——“不，鲍里斯来了并说，“我不想与之抗争，而是变成一个上层阶级傻瓜的漫画。”你见过 Monty Python 的 — 素描吗？
One of those, but did so with such a knowing irony that we all kind of got the joke.
其中之一，但这样做具有如此明显的讽刺意味，以至于我们都明白了这个笑话。
It’s the same act that he’s doing now, and I, for one, at the time at Oxford, because we were both in the Oxford Union together, which was the debating society where you got elected or whatever.
他现在正在做同样的事情，我也是，当时在牛津，因为我们都在牛津联盟，这是你当选或其他什么的辩论协会。
I was elected president in my second year and he had a hard time, but I was very much on his side because I just thought he was a talent, and I found him funny and I could forgive him for anything, really.
我在第二年当选总统，他过得很艰难，但我非常支持他，因为我认为他是一个人才，我发现他很有趣，我真的可以原谅他的任何事情。
I think that’s why, maybe, having known that side of Boris and not being intimately aware — as my peers in England were — of all his shenanigans, of all his lies, of all his corners cut, of all the betrayals that he committed, I didn’t see any of that and experience it.
我想，也许这就是为什么，在了解了鲍里斯的这一面之后，却没有像我在英国的同龄人那样密切地意识到他所有的恶作剧，他所有的谎言，他所有的偷工减料，他所犯下的所有背叛，我没有看到并经历过这些。
When I went back to England and talked to all my peers about him, they were so full of bitterness that they have begun, I think, to forget his basic charm and that power.
当我回到英国并与所有同龄人谈论他时，他们充满了痛苦，以至于我认为他们已经开始忘记他的基本魅力和力量。
I saw that at Oxford.
我在牛津看到了这一点。
It’s the same thing now, and it’s why he’s a very successful politician.
现在也是一样，这就是为什么他是一位非常成功的政治家。
More generally, what is it that intelligent, educated Americans get wrong about British politics?
更一般地说，聪明、受过教育的美国人对英国政治的误解是什么？
Well, they’re wrong to think that it’s somehow a more elevated discourse.
好吧，他们错误地认为这是某种更高层次的话语。
It can be at times, but it’s just as raucous as here.
有时可能会这样，但就像这里一样喧闹。
I think Brexit has been terribly misunderstood by Americans because they conflated it, for understandable reasons, with Trump, and they conflated Boris Johnson with Trump.
我认为英国脱欧被美国人严重误解，因为他们出于可以理解的原因将英国脱欧与特朗普混为一谈，并将鲍里斯·约翰逊与特朗普混为一谈。
Simply not the case.
根本不是这样的。
If you had had a less crazy — Boris is not crazy at all; he’s a very smart person and he’s also not, like Trump, a complete outsider.
如果你有一个不那么疯狂的 —— 鲍里斯根本不疯狂;他是一个非常聪明的人，而且他也不像特朗普那样是一个完全的局外人。
He’s the insider’s insider.
他是内部人士的内部人士。
Editor of The Spectator, Oxford, Eton, mayor of London: these are not outsider positions.
《旁观者》编辑、牛津大学、伊顿公学、伦敦市长：这些都不是局外人的立场。
And therefore dismiss it, and don’t really understand that in fact, I think the Tories have developed a very canny strategy to represent the voices and feelings of those who feel they’re left behind without abandoning an important segment of the elite.
因此，忽略它，并且并不真正理解，事实上，我认为保守党已经制定了一种非常精明的策略，来代表那些认为自己被抛在后面的人的声音和感受，同时又不放弃精英中的重要部分。
And that’s the role of the Tory party historically — it’s been to co-opt populism for elitism, as it were to prevent revolution by co-opting.
这就是保守党历史上的角色——它一直在拉拢民粹主义来代替精英主义，就像通过拉拢来阻止革命一样。
I think what Boris has done, in fact, and one of the things you’ll notice in Britain, is that the far-right parties that were gaining strength have collapsed and the Tories basically own the entire right-of-center vote.
事实上，我认为鲍里斯所做的事情以及你在英国会注意到的一件事是，正在增强实力的极右翼政党已经崩溃，保守党基本上拥有全部中右翼选票。
Whereas the Left is split between Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party and the Greens in a way that gives Boris a constant advantage.
而左翼在自由民主党、工党和绿党之间分裂，这给鲍里斯带来了持续的优势。
That, I think, is not very well understood.
我认为这还不是很容易理解。
Do you think the United Kingdom will split up in the next few decades, as we know it?
正如我们所知，您认为英国会在未来几十年内分裂吗？
Probably.
大概。
I wrote a piece like 20 years ago — I read it when I was going through the book, reading things to see if I would include it in the book — where I basically predicted that I can’t see Scotland being part of the UK past another 20 years.
我大约 20 年前写过一篇文章 —— 我在阅读这本书时读到了它，阅读一些内容，看看我是否会将其包含在书中 —— 我基本上预测，在过去的 20 年里，我看不到苏格兰成为英国的一部分。
And that was about 20 years ago.
那是大约20年前的事了。
But don’t they want to leave and keep the pound and the Queen and everything else, and just say “buzz off” to the English?
但他们难道不想离开并保留英镑、女王和其他一切，然后对英国人说“滚开”吗？
Where can they go, really?
他们真的能去哪里？
Trade, language .
贸易、语言。
.
。
.
。
?
？
I agree with you.
我同意你的看法。
Every time they’ve come up to this decision, it looks like you’re going to pass it and they always pull back because, in fact, the arguments for Scottish independence are incredibly weak.
每次他们做出这个决定时，看起来你都会通过它，但他们总是会退缩，因为事实上，支持苏格兰独立的论据非常薄弱。
First of all, the EU would not recognize it.
首先，欧盟不会承认。
The EU is not going to have Scotland as an independent state because they’d have to do it with Catalonia and other elements in Europe which the Spanish, for example, would veto.
欧盟不会让苏格兰成为一个独立国家，因为他们必须与加泰罗尼亚和欧洲其他地区一起这样做，而西班牙会否决这些地区。
I don’t think they have a chance to get back in the EU, even though they have these old — Scots: you go back to the 16th and 17th centuries, the Scots were always allied with the Europeans against the English.
我不认为他们有机会回到欧盟，尽管他们有这些古老的苏格兰人：你可以追溯到 16 世纪和 17 世纪，苏格兰人总是与欧洲人结盟反对英国人。
The French, primarily, against English.
法国人主要反对英国人。
Maybe — I don’t know.
也许 —— 我不知道。
I do think that Northern Ireland has been effectively turned into non-UK by the trade barrier in the Irish Sea which Boris negotiated.
我确实认为，鲍里斯谈判的爱尔兰海贸易壁垒实际上已经将北爱尔兰变成了非英国国家。
I think that Northern Ireland has definitely taken a step away from being fully in the union the way that Scotland and Wales are.
我认为北爱尔兰肯定已经远离了像苏格兰和威尔士那样完全加入联邦的境地。
Whether or not you agree with it, but what is the most convincing version of British pessimism?
不管你是否同意，但英国悲观主义最有说服力的版本是什么？
Is it John Gray?
是约翰·格雷吗？
Is it Roger Scruton?
是罗杰·斯克鲁顿吗？
Is it Fitzjames Stephen?
是菲茨詹姆斯·斯蒂芬吗？
Someone else?
他人？
Is it you?
是你吗？
Who or what is it?
它是谁或是什么？
Because you are mostly optimistic.
因为你大多是乐观的。
Who’s the pessimist where you are tempted to cross over to the dark side?
谁是让你想要走向黑暗面的悲观主义者？
Maybe someone like Peter Hitchens or Douglas Murray, who have a really bleak understanding of what’s happening in Europe with the Muslim population, and also a sense that traditional classical liberalism in Britain is really under siege.
也许像彼得·希钦斯（Peter Hitchens）或道格拉斯·默里（Douglas Murray）这样的人，他们对欧洲穆斯林人口所发生的事情有着非常悲观的认识，并且也感觉到英国的传统古典自由主义确实受到了围攻。
Sorry.
对不起。
That’s a ferry boat blasting from the deck; excuse me —
那是一艘从甲板上爆炸的渡船；对不起 —
Don’t worry; we’ve had trains cross through our episodes.
别担心；我们的剧集中曾有火车穿过。
These are good questions, Tyler.
这些都是好问题，泰勒。
So I think that’s what I would say to that.
所以我想这就是我要说的。
The Muslim immigration to Britain seems to have gone acceptably well, right?
穆斯林移民英国的进展似乎还算顺利，对吧？
I think that there are parts of England, northern England particularly, which have had some issues with not full integration: really some separatist entities.
我认为英格兰的某些地区，特别是英格兰北部，存在一些未完全一体化的问题：实际上是一些分离主义实体。
Bradford, I think, would be one of them.
我认为布拉德福德会是其中之一。
And in which there have been really ugly child-grooming practices and ways in which the Muslim community in those areas — which came from very rural, backward areas of Pakistan — they’re weren’t quite ready for modern liberal democracy.
这些地区的穆斯林社区——来自巴基斯坦非常农村、落后的地区——存在着非常丑陋的儿童诱骗行为和方式，他们还没有为现代自由民主做好准备。
There’s some element in which that works, but in general, when I go to England I do think that it’s pretty successful multiracially.
这在某些方面是有效的，但总的来说，当我去英国时，我确实认为它在多种族方面非常成功。
But then I think America is too, because I have a slightly lower expectation, I think, of human nature than most people do — but in general the English and the Americans: pretty easygoing about this.
但我认为美国也是如此，因为我认为，我对人性的期望比大多数人略低——但总的来说，英国人和美国人：对此相当随和。
You go to London and it’s pretty easygoing.
你去伦敦，那里很随和。
What they were responding to, I think, is the speed of change in which — one of the saddest things my brother ever said to me when I was over there a few years ago, was talking about London — and he said to me, “Well, it’s not our capital city anymore, is it?” It really struck me that he felt that London was a different country now, that it was an internationalist, global playground as opposed to England’s and Britain’s capital city.
我认为，他们的反应是变化的速度——“几年前我在那里时，我哥哥对我说过的最悲伤的事情之一就是谈论伦敦”——他对我说，“好吧，它不再是我们的首都了，不是吗？”让我印象深刻的是，他觉得伦敦现在是一个不同的国家，它是一个国际主义的全球游乐场，而不是英格兰和英国的首都。
When you look at the demographics, you see that 40 percent of Londoners were not born in the United Kingdom.
当你查看人口统计数据时，你会发现 40% 的伦敦人并非出生在英国。
Now in New York, fine, that’s always been the case.
现在在纽约，好吧，情况一直如此。
It’s a big immigration entrepôt.
这是一个大型移民中转站。
But that’s never happened to England before.
但英格兰以前从未发生过这种情况。
If you go to London, it’s very hard to hear an English accent or an English person in any service industry.
如果你去伦敦，在任何服务行业都很难听到英国口音或英国人。
It’s quite remarkable.
这是非常了不起的。
And of course in some ways, that’s a huge advertisement for London.
当然，从某些方面来说，这对伦敦来说是一个巨大的广告。
It’s the place where every other European wants to go live; it’s a place where people all over the world want to live.
这是所有其他欧洲人都想居住的地方；这是世界各地的人们都想居住的地方。
It’s a fantastic city.
这是一座很棒的城市。
But from the perspective of the coherence of England, I think it happened a little too fast and it was a little too much, and that’s the adjustment.
但从英格兰队的一致性角度来看，我认为这发生得太快了一点，也有点太多了，这就是调整。
On women in politics
关于女性从政
Why is there so much residual British hatred of Margaret Thatcher — so to call her Maggie the Milk Snatcher?
为什么英国人对玛格丽特·撒切尔还有如此多的仇恨——以至于称她为“牛奶抢夺者玛吉”？
You’ll still hear that.
你仍然会听到这个。
Like, who cares?
就像，谁在乎？
How long ago was that?
那是多久以前的事了？
The milk, whatever.
牛奶什么的都行
What is it about her that so set off her enemies?
她究竟有何魅力，如此激怒了她的敌人？
It’s funny because when I was a kid, I always used to fight with Starmer all the time about Thatcher in the ’70s, and the passions were intense.
这很有趣，因为当我还是个孩子的时候，我总是和斯塔默就七十年代的撒切尔夫人争论不休，而且激情非常强烈。
I think the thing is that she changed Britain and she did it without a great deal of emollience, as it were.
我认为问题在于她改变了英国，而且她做到这一点时并没有太多的软化。
She just did it.
她刚刚做到了。
And she did it in a way that profoundly shifted Britain from a socialistic to a much more capitalistic country.
她这样做的方式深刻地将英国从一个社会主义国家转变为一个更加资本主义的国家。
From what I felt was an incredibly stultified, class-based country to a much more entrepreneurial and dynamic country.
从我感觉的一个极其愚蠢、阶级化的国家变成了一个更具创业精神和活力的国家。
In the process, of course, consigned large amounts of what was decrepit and stultified and moribund in Britain, essentially over — and that included, for example, the great coal fields of the north, which were draining the public treasury and forcing people to go down into mines.
当然，在这个过程中，英国的大量破旧、僵化和垂死的东西被托运了，基本上已经超过了——其中包括例如北方的大煤田，这些煤田正在耗尽公共财政并迫使人们进入矿井。
It was absurd, from my point of view.
从我的角度来看，这是荒谬的。
But people really hated her.
但人们真的很讨厌她。
(I just loved her.) And she became this sort of bête noire.
（我只是爱她。）她成了这种讨厌的人。
Because she was such a formidable figure, reelected three times, transformed the country, a woman, a Tory — all these things just were too much for some people to even begin to absorb.
因为她是一个如此令人敬畏的人物，三度连任，改变了国家，一个女人，一个保守党——所有这些东西对一些人来说简直难以接受。
I have a piece in the book called “Thatcher, Liberator.”
我的书中有一篇文章叫做“撒切尔，解放者”。
They didn’t even see her extraordinary pioneering work as a woman leader, as a woman who was a professional woman who earned a living as a chemist and a lawyer, and who took on the Tory party.
他们甚至没有看到她作为一名女性领袖、一名以化学家和律师谋生的职业女性以及与保守党的斗争所做出的非凡的开创性工作。
I think it’s an amazing story, myself.
我认为这是一个了不起的故事，我自己。
I think she was more right than wrong about almost everything, with a few obvious errors.
我认为她在几乎所有事情上都是对多于错，但也有一些明显的错误。
I don’t get it either.
我也不明白。
My peers in England will still get so upset about her.
我在英国的同龄人仍然会对她感到不安。
She’s been dead.
她已经死了。
I don’t get it.
我不明白。
What do you think were the main disadvantages women faced in politics, and are any of those reflected in views on Thatcher?
您认为女性在政治上面临的主要劣势是什么？这些劣势是否反映在对撒切尔夫人的看法中？
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I remember —
嗯，我记得 ——
Is there less emotional space that women are allowed to inhabit, just like Barack Obama knew he could not get away with being very angry very often, if at all, right?
是否允许女性占据的情感空间越来越少，就像巴拉克·奥巴马知道他无法经常生气（如果有的话）一样，对吗？
Right.
正确的。
What are those constraints for women?
这些对女性的限制是什么？
You would think the constraint would be you can’t yell, you can’t harangue, you can’t be aggressive and debate without backlash — but she was all of the above.
你可能会认为限制是你不能大喊大叫，不能长篇大论，不能咄咄逼人，不能在没有强烈反对的情况下进行辩论——但她就是以上所有。
She did not make any concessions to her femininity in terms of being a politician.
作为一名政治家，她并没有对自己的女性气质做出任何让步。
The House of Commons itself, just the format of the House of Commons is so gladiatorial, it’s so much a theater, that politics in Britain has to have this slightly parliamentary, theatrical element to it.
下议院本身，只是下议院的形式是如此的角斗，它是如此的一个剧院，以至于英国的政治必须有这种稍微议会化的、戏剧性的元素。
I think politics has often had that kind of dramatic theatrical element to it, and that doesn’t seem to come as naturally to many women as it does to many men.
我认为政治往往具有这种戏剧性的元素，而这对许多女性来说似乎并不像对许多男性那样自然。
And that is a problem for women’s access, even though they’ve made huge strides in Britain — already had two female prime ministers, for example — as opposed to the United States.
这对于女性的准入来说是一个问题，尽管她们在英国已经取得了巨大的进步——例如，已经有两位女首相——而不是在美国。
One thing that’s interesting, also: that Thatcher and, for example, Theresa May (and also Angela Merkel) — they were not understood within their own politics in the way that Hillary Clinton was understood within American politics.
还有一件事很有趣：撒切尔夫人和特蕾莎·梅（还有安吉拉·默克尔）——他们在自己的政治中并没有像希拉里·克林顿在美国政治中被理解那样被理解。
It’s just not that big a gendered gap.
只是性别差距并没有那么大。
In fact, if you look at the voting numbers, you find that there is almost no gender gap between Labour and the Tories in Britain.
事实上，如果你看一下投票数字，你会发现英国工党和保守党之间几乎没有性别差距。
It’s a very American phenomenon, this idea that a woman in politics is somehow the symbol of feminism and of breaking the glass ceiling and all of that.
这是一种非常美国化的现象，认为政治中的女性在某种程度上是女权主义和打破玻璃天花板等的象征。
It’s just not taken as seriously in Europe as it is here.
只是在欧洲并没有像在这里那样受到重视。
On things under- and overrated
关于被低估和高估的事情
Now, in the middle of all these conversations, we have a segment: “Overrated vs. Underrated.” I toss out a name, a place, an idea; you tell me if you think it’s overrated or underrated.
现在，在所有这些对话的中间，我们有一个片段：“被高估与被低估”。我抛出一个名字、一个地点、一个想法；如果你认为它被高估了还是被低估了，请告诉我。
When you’re ready?
你什么时候准备好？
Awesome.
惊人的。
Yes, I’m ready.
是的，我准备好了。
Go ahead.
前进。
Elton John: overrated or underrated?
埃尔顿·约翰：被高估还是被低估？
Just trying to figure it out.
只是想弄清楚。
I think he’s rated pretty accurately, to be honest.
老实说，我认为他的评价相当准确。
I don’t think either.
我也不认为。
I mean, I think he’s a great genius.
我的意思是，我认为他是一个伟大的天才。
Without Bernie Taupin — OK, overrated without Bernie.
没有伯尼·陶平 ——好吧，没有伯尼就被高估了。
Those lyrics are hard to beat.
这些歌词很难被击败。
David Bowie: overrated or underrated?
大卫·鲍伊：被高估还是被低估？
Underrated, underrated.
被低估了，被低估了。
Why?
为什么？
He was so smart.
他太聪明了。
This man had such a vast erudition, insight.
此人博学多才，见识广博。
I mean, I don’t know whether you’ve seen that remark he made about the future of the internet.
我的意思是，我不知道你是否看过他关于互联网未来的言论。
He was smarter about what was coming than almost anybody else.
对于即将发生的事情，他比几乎任何人都更聪明。
And the creativity of this guy.
还有这个人的创造力。
I mean, we have all this lame, nonbinary bullsh*t today, and he was in the ’70s actually exploding differences to men and women, being androgynous while being incredibly heterosexual.
我的意思是，今天我们有这些蹩脚的、非二元的废话，而他在 70 年代实际上爆炸了男性和女性的差异，既是雌雄同体，又是令人难以置信的异性恋。
Just — just a fantastic individual.
只是 ——只是一个很棒的人。
That’s why my dog is called Bowie.
这就是为什么我的狗叫鲍伊。
After him.
在他之后。
Oh, great.
哦，太好了。
Charles Dickens.
查尔斯·狄更斯。
I think rated correctly.
我认为评级正确。
What’s your favorite book by him?
你最喜欢他写的哪本书？
By him?
靠他吗？
I think David Copperfield.
我认为是大卫·科波菲尔。
The State of Utah: over- or underrated?
犹他州：高估还是低估？
Underrated.
被低估了。
Why?
为什么？
Have you looked at the statistics?
你看过统计数据吗？
They’re incredible.
他们太不可思议了。
I think here’s a tribute to Mormonism: One of the great crises affecting America is this atomization, this lack of meaning, this lack of community.
我认为这是对摩门教的致敬：影响美国的最大危机之一就是这种原子化，这种缺乏意义，这种缺乏社区。
Then the Mormons have shown you don’t have to do that.
然后摩门教徒表明你不必这样做。
Now, I’ve also experienced the other side of that, because I had a lot of time there with many of the gay groups there, back in the ’90s.
现在，我也经历了另一面，因为早在 90 年代，我就在那里与许多同性恋团体呆了很多时间。
But again, in Utah they came to this wonderful Utah compromise between the Mormon church and the gay rights groups, which really allowed both of them space to breathe.
但在犹他州，他们在摩门教教会和同性恋权利团体之间达成了美妙的犹他州妥协，这确实给了他们双方喘息的空间。
Romney — I would dearly love that guy to be president, if we had a Republican.
罗姆尼——如果我们有一位共和党人，我非常希望他能成为总统。
Definitely, underrated.
肯定是，被低估了。
Theresa May: over- or underrated?
特雷莎·梅：被高估还是被低估？
Underrated, because she was given a basically impossible task.
被低估了，因为她被赋予了一项基本上不可能完成的任务。
She did as well, I think, as anybody could have, and it was necessary, I think, to actually spell out how Brexit would take place, which required a certain process of the country and the country’s elites running out of excuses to do it.
我认为她也做到了任何人都可以做到的，而且我认为有必要真正阐明英国脱欧将如何发生，这需要国家和国家精英们没有借口这样做的特定过程。
And that was always going to take time, and she took the brunt of it.
这总是需要时间，而她首当其冲。
I think she’s underrated the way that John Major, for example, is underrated as prime minister.
我认为她被低估了，就像约翰·梅杰作为首相被低估一样。
The musical group Queen.
音乐团体女王。
Underrated.
被低估了。
How could you overrate Queen?
你怎么能高估女王呢？
It’s amazing.
太棒了。
Freddie Mercury, as a figure, is another gay icon to me, who I think is — a lot of people saw that movie, Bohemian Rhapsody, but the songs that man wrote: we still sing them.
弗雷迪·墨丘利（Freddie Mercury）作为一个人物，对我来说是另一个同性恋偶像，我认为他是——很多人都看过那部电影《波西米亚狂想曲》，但那个人写的歌曲：我们仍然唱它们。
We still hear them.
我们仍然听到他们的声音。
They’re still part of our culture.
它们仍然是我们文化的一部分。
Again, another incredibly original gay man.
又是一个令人难以置信的原创同性恋者。
For a gay man to conquer rock and roll with no real posturing about it.
对于一个同性恋者来说，征服摇滚乐并不需要任何真正的姿态。
A lot of the stuff that we celebrate today, the first person to — people did it before under much harder circumstances and didn’t sit around asking to get a gold medal for it.
我们今天庆祝的很多事情，都是第一个做到的人——人们以前在更困难的情况下做到了这一点，并且没有坐在那里要求获得金牌。
He came from a very conservative background and yet he lived his life.
他出身于非常保守的家庭，但他过着自己的生活。
All those football fans chanting songs realize they’re chanting this super-gay man, I find fantastic.
所有那些高喊歌曲的球迷都意识到他们在高喊这个超级同性恋者，我觉得太棒了。
I love that mishmash.
我喜欢那个大杂烩。
I hate the separatism.
我讨厌分裂主义。
I love when gay stuff is embraced by straight people and vice versa.
我喜欢同性恋的东西被异性恋者拥抱，反之亦然。
I love the possibility of cultural mixture and energy that comes from that.
我喜欢文化融合的可能性以及由此产生的能量。
What’s your favorite movie?
你最喜欢的电影是什么？
Airplane!
飞机！
Why?
为什么？
I watch it every year because it’s just so funny and stupid — and, as a tonic, if you’re weighed down by the world, especially if you’re weighed down by wokeness or the incredibly censorious attitude that we have, it’s just so great to sit down and watch that every now and again and see what they got away with.
我每年都会看它，因为它是如此有趣和愚蠢——而且，作为一种补品，如果你被世界压垮了，特别是如果你被觉醒或我们所拥有的令人难以置信的挑剔态度所压垮，那么时不时地坐下来看看他们做了什么，真是太棒了。
And just the sight gags.
只是视觉上的笑料。
I’m a big fan of sight gags and of slapstick, and so Airplane!
我非常喜欢视觉搞笑和闹剧，所以《飞机》！
—
—
I mean, I’m not saying it’s the greatest movie of all time or anything.
我的意思是，我并不是说这是有史以来最伟大的电影或任何东西。
I’m just saying when I think of movies I’m particularly fond of —
我只是说当我想到我特别喜欢的电影时 ——
The other one I would say that comes to mind, if I’m being totally serious, is this movie called Into Great Silence, which is a Philip Gröning documentary on the monastery of Chartreuse, the silent order, which has never accepted any outsider its entire history since the Middle Ages.
如果我是认真的的话，我想说的另一部作品是这部名为《进入大寂静》的电影，这是一部菲利普·格罗宁 (Philip Gröning) 拍摄的关于沙特勒斯修道院的纪录片，该修道院是一个沉默的修道院，自中世纪以来，该修道院从未接受任何外人了解其整个历史。
He gets in and just films their life: their chanting, their work, the way they garden, the way they pray.
他走进来，拍摄他们的生活：他们的吟诵、他们的工作、他们园艺的方式、他们祈祷的方式。
This lasts for three hours and there are no words in it until the last 20 minutes, and you are riveted throughout.
整个过程持续了三个小时，直到最后 20 分钟才出现任何文字，你会全神贯注。
As an expression of spirituality, it’s an extraordinary film.
作为灵性的表达，这是一部非凡的电影。
Who’s the most interesting and underrated feminist thinker?
谁是最有趣且被低估的女权主义思想家？
I still like Germaine Greer, to be honest with you.
老实说，我仍然喜欢杰曼·格里尔。
I just like her candor, her rigor, her energy, and her balls — if I’m allowed to say that.
我只是喜欢她的坦率、她的严谨、她的活力和她的勇气——如果允许我这么说的话。
I’m not really allowed to — I guess you can now.
我真的不被允许 —— 我想你现在可以了。
We can talk about a lady’s balls now the way we couldn’t before.
我们现在可以像以前一样谈论女士的蛋蛋了。
I’m a big fan of hers, still a fan of hers.
我是她的忠实粉丝，现在仍然是她的粉丝。
She did some tough stuff, and she’s now actually also taking some tough stances, which I appreciate and approve of.
她做了一些强硬的事情，现在她实际上也采取了一些强硬的立场，这是我欣赏和赞同的。
Now, you often have described yourself as an Oakeshottian, right?
现在，您经常将自己描述为奥克肖特人，对吧？
Michael Oakeshott.
迈克尔·奥克肖特。
How would you approach political issues where it seems you have to choose something ideological and there’s not an obvious way to do experimentation?
当你似乎必须选择一些意识形态并且没有明显的实验方法时，你将如何处理政治问题？
Take, say, the Mexican-American war from the 1840s.
以 1840 年代的墨西哥-美国战争为例。
How do you think about that?
您对此有何看法？
Are you glad it happened?
你很高兴这件事发生了吗？
Was it a big mistake?
这是一个很大的错误吗？
Is the Oakeshottian framework adequate to handle that?
Oakshottian 框架足以处理这个问题吗？
I don’t know enough about the Mexican-American war, I’m afraid.
恐怕我对美墨战争了解不够。
You know we took the land and didn’t give it back.
你知道我们拿走了土地并且没有归还。
You know it didn’t belong to us, and you know it was a lot of land.
你知道它不属于我们，你也知道那是一大片土地。
I’m not sure you need to know the details of —
我不确定您是否需要了解 的详细信息——
No, but — OK.
不，但是 —— 好的。
I think as itself, would not fit an Oakeshottian understanding of what politics should do.
我认为，就其本身而言，它不符合奥克肖特式对政治应该做什么的理解。
Seizing land is not what Oakeshott’s conservatism will be about, but Oakeshott’s conservatism is very European and not as easily applicable to the United States in its formative periods.
夺取土地并不是奥克肖特保守主义的目的，但奥克肖特的保守主义非常欧洲化，并不容易适用于其形成时期的美国。
Sometimes it does seem to me that taking a bold ideological position on a public issue in which it is not so easy to simply compromise or cut into or finesse is necessary.
有时在我看来，在公共问题上采取大胆的意识形态立场是必要的，因为在公共问题上简单地妥协、切入或耍花招并不那么容易。
What Oakeshott would say is, “The key thing is, is such an act of radicalism actually a form of balancing?” For example, you could make an argument that Thatcher, for example, came in with a very radical, ideological agenda of shrinking the state, lowering taxes, cutting spending, etc., which was ideological.
奥克肖特会说，“关键是，这种激进主义行为实际上是一种平衡形式吗？”例如，你可以说撒切尔夫人上任时提出了一个非常激进的意识形态议程，即缩减国家规模、降低税收、削减支出等，这是意识形态的。
Why does a Tory support it?
为什么保守党会支持它？
Because the country had so gravitated towards a nadir of socialism that, in fact, that kind of ideology was necessary pragmatically to return Britain to its center, as it were.
因为这个国家已经如此倾向于社会主义的最低点，事实上，从务实的角度来看，这种意识形态对于让英国回到其中心是必要的。
So sometimes radicalism is a necessary part of moderation.
所以有时激进主义是温和主义的必要组成部分。
How do you determine which incident or which moment in history or which decision is that decision?
您如何确定历史上的哪个事件或哪个时刻或哪个决定是该决定？
The conservative in Oakeshott would say you can’t, that that is where you cede to what we might call prudence, prudential judgment, which is where we rely upon the individual politician, the individual statesperson to have the judgment necessary to make the right call.
奥克肖特的保守派会说你不能，那就是你要放弃我们所谓的谨慎、审慎的判断，这就是我们依靠个别政客、个别政治家做出正确决定所必需的判断的地方。
It will not be prescribed in advance; it will be hard to determine retroactively; but in the moment, a person able to make those kinds of prudential, practical decisions is the person that we should follow.
不会提前规定；很难追溯确定；但目前，能够做出此类审慎、务实决策的人才是我们应该追随的人。
The goal is to keep the society on an even keel, not to disrupt it too much, even though sometimes it takes radicalism to keep it on an even keel.
我们的目标是让社会保持平稳，而不是对其进行太多破坏，尽管有时需要激进主义才能保持社会平稳。
At the state level, do we have Oakeshottian legislators today in America?
在州一级，今天美国有奥克肖特立法者吗？
Well, fewer and fewer, because of the way in which the gerrymandering particularly has made it more important for incumbents to worry about primary opponents than their general election opponents.
嗯，越来越少了，因为选区划分不公使得现任者更需要担心初选对手，而不是担心大选对手。
But I do think, and I’ll echo David Brooks here, that there is more of it than you might imagine — that there are practical things that need to be done, things that need to be rearranged as the society changes and moves, and there are people in politics capable of doing that, who have done that.
但我确实认为，我会在这里附和大卫·布鲁克斯的观点，这比你想象的要多——一些实际的事情需要做，一些事情需要随着社会的变化和发展而重新安排，而且政界有些人有能力做到这一点，他们已经做到了。
And certainly at a state level that’s increasingly the case.
当然，在州一级，这种情况越来越明显。
There are just complicated, difficult things that require administrative skill and political judgment.
只是有些复杂、困难的事情需要行政技巧和政治判断力。
I think that kind of political judgment, which is not to be too driven by ideology in all things, which will allow the possibility of a prudential, pragmatic adjustment, is what Oakeshottian politics is at some point about.
我认为，这种政治判断，在所有事情上都不要太受意识形态的驱动，这将允许审慎、务实的调整成为可能，这就是奥克肖特政治在某种程度上的意义所在。
Do you think the American Southeast will walk away from the pandemic as the least traumatized or most traumatized part of the country?
您认为美国东南部地区会成为美国受创最轻或受创最严重的地区吗？
It could be the most.
这可能是最多的。
I think the experience of having had an opportunity to avoid a catastrophe and then walking right into it is potentially much more emotionally and psychologically traumatizing than just having something happen to you that you had no warning for, and that you couldn’t have prepared for but which knocked you out — the way New Yorkers I think were traumatized by 9/11 or indeed the first wave of COVID.
我认为，有机会避免一场灾难，然后直接走进灾难的经历，可能比发生在你身上没有任何警告、你无法做好准备但却让你崩溃的事情在情感和心理上造成更大的创伤——我认为纽约人因 9/11 或第一波新冠疫情而受到的创伤。
If I stay in Miami or Nashville, it seems to have returned to normal much more quickly than in San Francisco, and people have a more casual attitude about it that seems to be bad from the point of view of casualties, but there’s lower unemployment, more rapid bounce-back.
如果我留在迈阿密或纳什维尔，恢复正常的速度似乎比旧金山快得多，人们对此的态度也更加随意，从伤亡的角度来看这似乎很糟糕，但失业率较低，反弹速度更快。
Won’t they walk away —
他们不会走开吗 ——
I see that too.
我也看到了。
My worry is that the Delta variant is also going to mean a lot of death in the next month or two, much more death than might otherwise be the case.
我担心的是，德尔塔变种也将意味着未来一两个月内会有大量人员死亡，比其他情况下的死亡人数要多得多。
We’ll have to wait and see how that affects this understanding.
我们必须等待，看看这会如何影响这种理解。
In general, as you know, I’m in favor of getting on with life and getting back to normal as quickly as possible.
总的来说，如你所知，我赞成继续生活并尽快恢复正常。
I say that as someone who is particularly vulnerable to COVID, but I’ve looked at the risks, got my vaccination, and I’m going to live my life with some reasonable precautions.
我是这么说的，作为一个特别容易感染新冠病毒的人，但我已经研究了风险，接种了疫苗，并且我将在生活中采取一些合理的预防措施。
I kind of appreciate where they’re coming from, but I — seriously, Tyler, I don’t understand why you wouldn’t take a prudential measure to save your own life when it’s available to you for free.
我有点欣赏他们的想法，但我——说真的，泰勒，我不明白为什么你不采取谨慎的措施来挽救自己的生命，而这些都是免费的。
Maybe I’m so used to having my body medicalized that having another needle stuck in me feels so routine at this point that I can’t understand the idea of people who really aren’t part of a medical system having to subject themselves to it for the first time on the basis of a potential illness.
也许我已经习惯了对我的身体进行医疗治疗，以至于在这一点上再扎一根针感觉太平常了，以至于我无法理解那些真正不属于医疗系统的人不得不因为潜在的疾病而第一次接受它的想法。
We’ll see, won’t we?
我们会看到的，不是吗？
My hope is, it might be the case that Delta’s going to blow itself out quite quickly.
我的希望是，达美航空可能很快就会崩溃。
It seems to be happening in Britain right now.
这种事现在似乎正在英国发生。
They may not, but I do think there’s a chance that they’re going to suffer terribly, and suffer on top of that the sense that they could have avoided it, which makes you doubly traumatized.
他们可能不会，但我确实认为他们有可能会遭受极大的痛苦，而且最重要的是他们会感到自己本可以避免这种情况，这会让你受到双重创伤。
Now, you’ve supported both Obama and President Biden on the grounds that they would help us get past the culture war.
现在，您支持奥巴马和拜登总统，因为他们将帮助我们度过文化战争。
It seems in a lot of ways, culture war has gotten worse.
从很多方面来看，文化战争似乎变得更加严重。
What’s your view now?
您现在有何看法？
Is it, “It would have been even worse yet without those figures”?
是不是“如果没有这些数字，情况会更糟”？
Or maybe, “Obama made it worse in ways I hadn’t seen at the time”?
或者也许，“奥巴马以我当时从未见过的方式让事情变得更糟”？
Give us your current model.
给我们您当前的型号。
You realize, I think, that the individual president can’t unravel these forces that have been propelling us now since the 1960s, really.
我认为，你意识到，个别总统确实无法瓦解自 20 世纪 60 年代以来一直推动我们前进的这些力量。
That was the thesis of the Obama support, was that he could get us past — that he’s the first non-boomer, or post-boomer, to really be able to slice through pragmatically this deep Right-Left, somewhere-nowhere, heartland-coast divide.
这就是奥巴马支持的论点，那就是他可以让我们过去——他是第一个非婴儿潮一代或后婴儿潮一代，真正能够务实地消除这种深刻的右翼与左翼、无处可寻的中心地带与海岸线的分歧。
With Obama, again, I look at it and I’m like, I’ve really tried in my conscience to see, Did he really inflame racial relations or the culture war in ways?
再次，对于奥巴马，我看着它，我真的在良心上努力看看，他是否真的在某种程度上激化了种族关系或文化战争？
I honestly don’t think he did.
老实说，我不认为他做到了。
I think he tried quite hard not to, which is in stark contrast, of course, to Trump.
我认为他非常努力地不这样做，这当然与特朗普形成鲜明对比。
I think Biden is more at fault than Obama, even though Obama was much more ferociously opposed, because of his complete embrace of critical race theory and the diversity-equity inclusion agenda across the government and elsewhere, whereas Obama was really very hostile to those things and resisted those things.
我认为拜登的过错比奥巴马更大，尽管奥巴马的反对要激烈得多，因为他完全接受批判种族理论以及政府和其他地方的多元化公平包容议程，而奥巴马实际上非常敌视这些事情并抵制这些事情。
But I’m sobered up by the fact that I never fully understood how Obama was as unpopular as he was in many parts of the country.
但令我清醒的是，我从未完全理解奥巴马为何像他在美国许多地方一样不受欢迎。
I honestly can see some aspects of his personality could rub people the wrong way, but his core decency always seemed to me quite self-evident.
老实说，我可以看到他性格的某些方面可能会惹恼别人，但在我看来，他的核心正派总是不言而喻的。
I have to conceive simply that Americans — I always believed Americans would be willing to elect a Black president.
我必须简单地设想美国人 —— 我一直相信美国人会愿意选举一位黑人总统。
I underestimated how willing they would be to be governed by one.
我低估了他们接受一个人统治的意愿。
Some deep racial stuff I had underestimated came to the surface.
一些我低估的深层种族问题浮出水面。
On wokeism
论觉醒主义
If we look at the world as a whole and recognize there’s some globalized element to culture and just to ask the simple question, “The world as a whole, should it be more woke or less woke?” Which would you prefer?
如果我们把世界看成一个整体，认识到文化中存在一些全球化元素，那么我们就可以问一个简单的问题：“世界作为一个整体，应该更加觉醒还是更少觉醒？”您更喜欢哪一个？
As a whole?
整体而言？
Well, no one —
好吧，没有人 ——
There’s Pakistan, right?
有巴基斯坦，对吧？
There’s how gay people are treated —
这就是同性恋者被对待的方式 ——
Right, right, right.
对，对，对。
Well, no, but woke does not mean socially advanced or progressive.
嗯，不，但是觉醒并不意味着社会进步或进步。
It doesn’t.
事实并非如此。
It has a very clear view that the West is essentially — has been a construction of oppression rather than liberation.
它有一个非常明确的观点，即西方本质上是“压迫而不是解放”的建构。
But it’s a number of things.
但这是很多事情。
Take, like, the 200 most woke people in San Francisco and give them more influence, like their views have more influence all around the world.
以旧金山 200 名最清醒的人为例，赋予他们更大的影响力，就像他们的观点在全世界都有更大的影响力一样。
Does that make for a better world or a worse world?
这会让世界变得更美好还是更糟糕？
Doesn’t it make for a better world?
这难道不会让世界变得更美好吗？
I think it probably does, if you’re considering Saudi Arabia or if you’re thinking about Central Africa.
我认为，如果你考虑的是沙特阿拉伯或中非，情况可能会如此。
So you belong to the faction of woke?
那么你属于醒派吗？
Tyler.
泰勒.
I belong definitely to the faction of people who want to see minorities and people who have been previously marginalized in society being given the full opportunities to become absolutely fine, full, contributing members to our society.
我绝对属于那些希望看到少数族裔和以前在社会中被边缘化的人获得充分机会成为绝对优秀、全面、对我们社会有贡献的成员的人。
You can do that through a liberal system.
你可以通过自由制度来做到这一点。
In fact, I think the liberal system is the best way to do that, the least divisive and the more psychologically productive.
事实上，我认为自由主义制度是做到这一点的最佳方式，分裂最少，心理上更有成效。
In that, if I could find a way to make the world more respectful of those ideas, I would, but wokeness is not about that.
在这一点上，如果我能找到一种方法让世界更加尊重这些想法，我会的，但觉醒并不是这样的。
It is about the notion that the world is defined by oppression — is not just defined by oppression, but defined by white oppression.
它涉及这样一种观念：世界是由压迫定义的——不仅是由压迫定义的，而且是由白人压迫定义的。
I think if you took the lessons of the woke in terms of the inherent conflict between white and nonwhite — the nonwhite world — we’re talking about a major global war.
我认为，如果你从白人与非白人之间的内在冲突中汲取教训——“非白人世界”——我们正在谈论一场重大的全球战争。
A major, non-zero-sum global conflict, which — it would be a zero-sum conflict in the United States if they really had their druthers.
这是一场重大的、非零和的全球冲突，如果他们真的有自己的主张，那么在美国这将是一场零和冲突。
And so no, I’m not woke, not globally, but I do believe —
所以不，我还没有醒来，全球范围内都没有，但我确实相信 ——
That it has a positive marginal product?
它有正的边际产量吗？
It may not be your preferred ideology —
这可能不是你喜欢的意识形态 ——
Maybe — maybe, maybe it has a marginally social product.
也许 —— 也许，也许它有一个边际社会产品。
But I do prefer societies where women have equality and choice in their lives.
但我确实更喜欢女性在生活中拥有平等和选择权的社会。
I do believe in societies where gay people aren’t murdered and persecuted, where antisemitism isn’t — all those things.
我确实相信同性恋者不会被谋杀和迫害的社会，反犹太主义不会……所有这些事情。
Of course, I’m a liberal: I believe those things.
当然，我是一个自由主义者：我相信这些事情。
I just think the means by which you get there matters.
我只是认为你到达那里的方式很重要。
Why has wokeness done so well, at least along our coasts, in passing a kind of market test in many of our most productive companies?
为什么觉醒在我们许多生产力最高的公司中通过了市场测试，至少在我们的沿海地区表现得如此出色？
Now, some of it’s the government — governmental support.
现在，其中一些是政府的支持。
But clearly it goes far beyond that, right?
但显然它远远不止于此，对吧？
How has that happened?
这是怎么发生的？
What’s gone wrong in the market?
市场出了什么问题？
Well, it’s less the market than the elite market, because it’s the elites that have made these decisions.
好吧，与其说这是市场，不如说是精英市场，因为是精英做出了这些决定。
This isn’t coming from a wellspring of American suburbanites demanding that they go through struggle sessions on their complicity in white supremacy.
这并不是来自美国郊区居民要求他们就白人至上共谋问题进行斗争的源泉。
That hasn’t bubbled up from below.
那不是从下面冒出来的。
Here’s why, I think.
我想这就是原因。
Because the elites kind of have a Martin Luther King Jr. envy.
因为精英们有点嫉妒马丁·路德·金。
Every generation wants to have that moral quality, that sense that they are shifting the arc of history in a better way, even though we’ve generally done about as much as we possibly can to do that in terms of — within the possibilities of — a liberal system.
每一代人都希望拥有这样的道德品质，即他们正在以更好的方式改变历史弧线的感觉，尽管我们通常已经在“自由主义制度的可能性范围内”做了尽可能多的努力。
There’s that.
就是这样。
The need to feel worthy and the need to feel that you’re doing things.
需要感觉自己有价值，需要感觉自己在做事。
It’s also much more conducive to human nature to see people in terms of groups rather than individuals.
从群体而不是个人的角度来看待人也更有利于人性。
It’s just much more comfortable for people to do that.
人们这样做会更舒服。
We are essentially tribal.
我们本质上是部落的。
What wokeness appeals to, in the way that the far right also appeals — it appeals to tribalism.
觉醒所诉求的，正如极右翼所诉求的那样——它诉诸部落主义。
And tribalism in its cruder sense of being able to identify people instantly as a member of your tribe or another tribe.
部落主义的更原始的含义是能够立即将人们识别为您的部落或另一个部落的成员。
That is how humans have always lived.
人类一直都是这样生活的。
So of course it’s likely to be more successful when you combine it with the sense of moral righteousness as well: to tell people you can be tribalists and moral at the same time is an incredibly attractive way of life.
因此，当然，当你将它与道德正义感结合起来时，它可能会更成功：告诉人们你可以成为部落主义者，同时保持道德是一种非常有吸引力的生活方式。
To be able to see a white male and know instantly that that person is part of the problem before you even talk to them is hugely rewarding for a human psyche.
能够看到一个白人男性，并在与他们交谈之前立即知道那个人是问题的一部分，这对人类的心理来说是巨大的回报。
Always has been, always will be.
一直如此，也永远如此。
Liberalism, the achievement of seeing the individual independently of his or her group, is hard; it’s counterintuitive.
自由主义，即看到个人独立于他或她的群体的成就，是困难的；这是违反直觉的。
It’s always on the defensive in many ways.
它在很多方面总是处于守势。
Whether it’s a tribal right-wing racism or whether it’s a tribal left-wing neo-racism, they come more naturally to humans than the liberal discipline.
无论是部落右翼种族主义还是部落左翼新种族主义，它们对人类来说都比自由主义学科更自然。
Last question: You said toward the beginning you wanted to travel more.
最后一个问题：您一开始就说过想要更多地旅行。
Let’s say you had two free weeks, all expenses paid, no responsibilities, no COVID restrictions — where would you go, and why?
假设您有两周空闲时间，支付了所有费用，没有责任，没有新冠病毒限制 — 您会去哪里，为什么？
I would go to Rome, which I’ve never fully really discovered, I never really spent that much time in.
我会去罗马，我从未真正真正探索过罗马，也从未真正在那里待过那么多时间。
I would probably go to Rio.
我可能会去里约。
I don’t understand South America very well, and there’s something about that city that really compels me.
我不太了解南美洲，但那个城市有一些东西确实吸引着我。
I would go to Ireland because it’s also an island where most of my family comes from.
我会去爱尔兰，因为它也是我大部分家人的故乡。
I’ve never really spent time in the west of Ireland where my ancestors came.
我从未真正在我祖先的故乡爱尔兰西部待过一段时间。
My brother went around there recently and he said, “You know, it’s funny.
我哥哥最近去了那里，他说：“你知道，这很有趣。
I went to this little town in Cork and they all look like us.” There was a sense of, I’d like to get in touch with my ancestral roots by glowering at the grim Atlantic Ocean and the steady rain and the bleak sky and get in touch with their grit and their resilience.
我去了科克的这个小镇，他们看起来都像我们。”有一种感觉，我想通过凝视严峻的大西洋、持续的降雨和阴沉的天空来接触我的祖先根源，接触他们的勇气和韧性。
That’s where I’d like to go, those places.
那就是我想去的地方，那些地方。
How’s that?
怎么样？
Andrew Sullivan, thank you very much.
安德鲁·沙利文，非常感谢你。
And again, Andrew’s new book, the definitive statement of Andrew Sullivan — it is called Out on a Limb: Selected Writing, 1989–2021.
再说一次，安德鲁的新书，安德鲁·沙利文的权威声明——它被称为《支离破碎：精选写作，1989-2021》。
Tyler, you lived up to your reputation.
泰勒，你没有辜负你的声誉。
Those were fantastic questions delivered with merciless speed and energy.
这些都是以无情的速度和精力提出的精彩问题。
I’m so grateful.
我很感激。
I’m afraid I didn’t do as well as I hoped to, but nonetheless, thank you for having me.
恐怕我没有做到我希望的那么好，但尽管如此，还是谢谢你邀请我。
Oh, great dialogue.
哦，很棒的对话。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thumbnail photo credit: Chad Norman
缩略图照片来源：查德·诺曼