Alex Ross on Music, Culture, and Criticism (Ep. 105)

But it is true that there was this extraordinary outpouring of recordings in the ’50s and the ’60s, and I think it had something to do with all of these singers.

但确实，在 50 年代和 60 年代有如此大量的唱片，我认为这与所有这些歌手有关。

It was just an extraordinary generation of singers to begin with — Hans Hotter and Astrid Varnay and Birgit Nilsson.

从汉斯·霍特（Hans Hotter）、阿斯特丽德·瓦尔内（Astrid Varnay）和比吉特·尼尔森（Birgit Nilsson）开始，这就是非凡的一代歌手。

A little later, Wolfgang Windgassen.

过了一会儿，沃尔夫冈·温德加森。

But I think because the Second World War created this caesura, and a bunch of singers went into exile, and others remained in Nazi Germany and collaborated or didn’t collaborate to whatever extent.

但我认为是因为第二次世界大战造成了这种停顿，一群歌手流亡了，而其他人则留在了纳粹德国，无论在何种程度上合作或不合作。

And then after the war, they all came back together, and Bayreuth resumed with what seemed to be a brilliant new philosophy and a new approach under the Wagner grandsons.

战后，他们又一起回来，拜罗伊特在瓦格纳的孙子们的带领下，带着似乎是辉煌的新哲学和新方法重新开始。

And so, suddenly, there was this explosion as if it was pent-up energy.

于是，突然间，爆发了，仿佛是被压抑的能量。

But it isn’t just about the singing quality.

但这不仅仅是歌唱质量的问题。

There is an expressive power to those voices, and it’s a question — this comes up throughout opera, not just in Wagner — the high technical quality of voices today, but it’s not so easy to find this total expressive conviction, whether in Wagner or Verdi or Mozart.

这些声音有一种表现力，这是一个问题——这在整个歌剧中都会出现，而不仅仅是瓦格纳——今天声音的技术质量很高，但无论是在瓦格纳、威尔第还是莫扎特，要找到这种完全的表现力信念并不容易。

I think, in terms of the training of opera voices today, there might be a little too much emphasis on sheer technique and less on expression and the use of language and the communication of drama through the voice.

我想，今天的戏曲声音训练，可能有点过于注重纯粹的技巧，而较少注重表现力和语言的运用以及通过声音来传达戏剧。

Nothing like that for Wagner.

对于瓦格纳来说，没有这样的事情。

They’re both German composers.

他们都是德国作曲家。

Why hasn’t the meaningfulness been drained out of Beethoven pianists in the same way?

为什么贝多芬钢琴家的意义没有以同样的方式被耗尽？

The tenors, maybe a little less so.

男高音也许不那么重要。

I’m not as much a fan of Jonas Kaufmann as some others are in terms of his Wagner singing.

就乔纳斯·考夫曼的瓦格纳演唱而言，我不像其他人那样喜欢他。

It seems a little contained to me, but I wouldn’t put it quite as starkly as that.

对我来说，这似乎有点含蓄，但我不会说得那么明显。

But definitely, I don’t feel this overall sense of dramatic immersion.

但可以肯定的是，我并没有感受到这种戏剧性的沉浸感。

And I think just because this opera is so much more complicated in terms of putting all these ingredients together and making an effective fusion in terms of having the right singers, the right conductor, the right stage director.

我认为只是因为这部歌剧在将所有这些成分放在一起并在拥有合适的歌手、合适的指挥和合适的舞台导演方面进行有效融合方面要复杂得多。

A pianist on his or her own can make a great Beethoven recording without needing all of these cogs and wheels and working pieces to depend on.

钢琴家可以自己制作一首精彩的贝多芬唱片，而不需要依赖所有这些齿轮、轮子和工件。

So Wagner — it’s always tricky.

所以瓦格纳 —— 这总是很棘手的。

And people are always saying that all the great Wagner singers are in the past.

人们总是说所有伟大的瓦格纳歌手都已成为过去。

People said that in the ’50s and ’60s.

50 年代和 60 年代人们这么说。

They said, “Oh, you should have heard so-and-so.” So this bemoaning of a lost golden age is a very familiar syndrome in the conversation about opera.

他们说：“哦，你应该听听某某的话。”因此，这种对失去的黄金时代的哀叹是关于歌剧的对话中非常常见的综合症。

It’s been called the Americanization of orchestral sound because the great American orchestras of the 20th century tended to smooth out those regional differences.

这被称为管弦乐声音的美国化，因为 20 世纪伟大的美国管弦乐团倾向于消除这些地区差异。

Even as they incorporated players from so many different traditions, they tended to smooth out those differences.

即使他们吸收了来自许多不同传统的球员，他们也倾向于消除这些差异。

And then, I think, that attitude has spread backward, back to Europe, in terms of European orchestras just don’t have as much of that distinctive sound anymore.

然后，我认为，这种态度已经向后传播，回到了欧洲，就欧洲管弦乐队而言，不再有那么多独特的声音了。

If you go back to the classic recordings, you might hear more expression.

如果你回到经典录音，你可能会听到更多的表达。

You might hear more a sense of musical understanding.

你可能会听到更多的音乐理解感。

The playing is not going to be as good as it is today in sheer technical terms.

从纯粹的技术角度来看，演奏将不会像今天那么好。

That’s a tradeoff that deserves to be questioned because when you go back to those old recordings, sometimes you just don’t care if there are a few more horn flubs or a slightly sour wind sound when you’re getting this wonderful sense of expression.

这是一个值得质疑的权衡，因为当你回到那些旧录音时，有时当你获得这种美妙的表达感时，你并不关心是否有更多的喇叭声音或稍微酸涩的风声。

So I think it’s that professionalization, the specialization, the self-consciousness.

所以我认为这就是职业化、专业化和自我意识。

Scholars have written about how the advent of recording itself made orchestras much more self-conscious about their sound, more eager to avoid mistakes, getting away from that looser, slightly more chaotic understanding of orchestral ensemble that Furtwängler, for example, prized.

学者们已经写过，录音本身的出现如何使管弦乐队对自己的声音更加自我意识，更加渴望避免错误，摆脱富特文格勒等人所珍视的对管弦乐团的松散、稍微混乱的理解。

He never liked it when everyone was absolutely smack together in this precise way, and he criticized Toscanini on those grounds.

他从来不喜欢每个人都以这种精确的方式完全聚集在一起，并以此为由批评托斯卡尼尼。

So it’s shifting aesthetics, shifting standards of taste.

所以它正在改变审美，改变品味标准。

I would love to see certain orchestras, certain conductors really shake things up and step away from that extreme concentration on the pure technical standard.

我希望看到某些管弦乐队、某些指挥家真正能够改变现状，摆脱对纯粹技术标准的极端关注。

But who’s going to be the first to do it?

但谁会是第一个这么做的呢？

Because the first person to do it will be questioned and criticized.

因为第一个做的人会受到质疑和批评。

“What’s happened to the perfection of our sound?” So it’s a tricky move to make.

“我们的声音完美度出了什么问题？”所以这是一个棘手的举动。

You see it in early music.

你可以在早期音乐中看到它。

You see this much looser, more improvisatory, more flavorful approach in early music.

你会在早期音乐中看到这种更宽松、更即兴、更有味道的方法。

And I wish we could bring some of that spontaneity into 19th-century orchestral playing of the Romantic repertory as well.

我希望我们也能将一些自发性带入 19 世纪浪漫主义曲目的管弦乐演奏中。

Maybe it’ll happen.

也许它会发生。

We’ll see.

我们会看到的。

So I think he’d be surprised, and he might not be altogether pleased by this finished, ringing power of the sound.

所以我认为他会感到惊讶，而且他可能不会对这种声音的完成、响亮的力量感到完全满意。

He might well say, “Oh, that sounds great, but I can’t hear the words.

他很可能会说：“哦，听起来不错，但我听不清这些话。

I want to hear more of the words at every moment.

我每时每刻都想听到更多的话。

I don’t care if the C-sharp is perfectly sustained in the soprano if I’m losing the meaning of the words.” Because he was always a dramatist as well as a composer, and the words mattered a great deal to him.

如果我失去了歌词的意义，我不在乎女高音的升 C 音是否完全持续。”因为他既是作曲家，又是剧作家，文字对他来说非常重要。

And this general sensibility that we have now of voices always in danger of getting swamped by the orchestra, I don’t think would have pleased him at all.

我们现在对声音总是有被管弦乐队淹没的危险的普遍敏感性，我认为他一点也不高兴。

I think would be surprised, and he might not be altogether pleased by this finished, ringing power of the sound.

我想他会感到惊讶，而且他可能不会对这种声音的完成、响亮的力量感到完全满意。

He might well say, “Oh, that sounds great, but I can’t hear the words.

他很可能会说：“哦，听起来不错，但我听不清这些话。

I want to hear more of the words at every moment.

我每时每刻都想听到更多的话。

I don’t care if the C-sharp is perfectly sustained in the soprano if I’m losing the meaning of the words.” Because he was always a dramatist as well as a composer, and the words mattered a great deal to him.

如果我失去了歌词的意义，我不在乎女高音的升 C 音是否完全持续。”因为他既是作曲家，又是剧作家，文字对他来说非常重要。

And this general sensibility that we have now of voices always in danger of getting swamped by the orchestra, I don’t think would have pleased him at all.

我们现在对声音总是有被管弦乐队淹没的危险的普遍感觉，我认为他一点也不高兴。

On the one hand, it was a great marketing device, and he was a brilliant marketer.

一方面，这是一个很棒的营销手段，而且他是一位出色的营销人员。

He was a master of publicity and branding and all these modern techniques, and he knew that pulling the music of the “Ride of the Valkyries” out of Die Walküre would spread his fame because that piece had an electrifying effect on audiences from the moment it was first heard.

他是宣传和品牌推广以及所有这些现代技术的大师，他知道将《女武神》中的《女武神之骑》的音乐从《女武神》中拉出来会传播他的名声，因为这首曲子从第一次听到的那一刻起就给观众带来了震撼的效果。

The same with all the other excerpts from The Ring and the other operas.

《指环》和其他歌剧的所有其他节选也是如此。

But at the same time, he always felt that something was lost and that the dramatic purpose of these excerpts tended to disappear when they just became orchestral show pieces.

但与此同时，他总觉得失去了一些东西，当这些片段成为管弦乐表演作品时，它们的戏剧性目的往往就消失了。

Take, for example, the end of Rheingold, the entry of the gods into Valhalla.

以《莱茵黄金》的结局、众神进入瓦尔哈拉殿堂为例。

It’s grandiose, splendid — not quite uplifting, but it’s very energizing.

它宏伟、辉煌——虽然不太令人振奋，但非常充满活力。

It makes you feel grand and important listening to it.

听它会让你感到伟大和重要。

It’s just the sheer pleasure and the power of masked orchestral sound.

这只是纯粹的乐趣和蒙面管弦乐的力量。

But in the context — and I talk about this in the book — it’s absolutely ironic.

但在上下文中——我在书中谈到了这一点——这绝对是讽刺。

This is a catastrophe unfolding.

这是一场正在发生的灾难。

The gods are entering Valhalla, ignoring the pleas of the Rheinmaidens to return the ring to the Rhine.

众神无视莱茵少女将戒指归还莱茵河的请求，进入瓦尔哈拉殿堂。

Wotan has struck this evil bargain to pay off the giants for the building of Valhalla.

沃坦达成了这一邪恶的交易，以支付巨人建造瓦尔哈拉的费用。

And it’s always funny to remember that The Ring is a story of contractors not being paid for their work.

记住《指环》讲述的是承包商没有获得报酬的故事，这总是很有趣的。

So it is dramatically ironic.

所以这是极具讽刺意味的。

It’s an empty spectacle.

这是一个空洞的景象。

It’s a hollow spectacle.

这是一个空洞的景象。

I compare it to the end of Aeschylus’s Agamemnon and Clytemnestra and Aegisthus entering the palace at the end of Agamemnon.

我把它比作埃斯库罗斯的《阿伽门农》的结尾以及《阿伽门农》的结尾克吕泰涅斯特拉和埃吉斯托斯进入宫殿。

So when you pull out the excerpt, you lose those levels of irony, those levels of dramatic richness.

所以当你拿出摘录时，你就会失去那些讽刺的程度，那些戏剧性的丰富程度。

But it’s impossible to resist.

但这是不可能抗拒的。

You can’t listen to the entire operas end from end every time.

你不可能每次都从头到尾听完整部歌剧。

You want to experience the highlights as the feeling moves you.

当这种感觉感动你时，你想要体验其中的亮点。

But I do feel that Wagner is always at his richest when you take the entire conception in the theater, when you experience it as theater.

但我确实觉得，当你把整个构想放在剧院里，当你把它当作剧院来体验时，瓦格纳总是处于他最丰富的状态。

That’s when it really comes alive and reveals its full power.

那是它真正活跃起来并展现其全部力量的时候。

But The Ring certainly has irony.

但《指环》确实具有讽刺意味。

There’s a sense of detachment from the characters.

有一种脱离角色的感觉。

The characters are being observed from various angles.

从不同的角度观察人物。

So if not quite laugh-out-loud humor, there are alienation effects in Wagner.

因此，即使不是令人捧腹大笑的幽默，瓦格纳的作品也存在疏离效应。

There are moments of rupture where you’re breaking out of the character’s own delusional ideas about what’s going on and seeing it from another angle, and there’s a darker kind of wit in that.

在某些破裂的时刻，你会摆脱角色自己对正在发生的事情的妄想，并从另一个角度看待它，这其中有一种更黑暗的智慧。

Even in Tristan und Isolde — there are moments in Tristan that make you smile a little bit.

即使在《特里斯坦与伊索尔德》中——《特里斯坦》中也有一些让你微笑的时刻。

I always loved the moment at the end of the first act when King Mark is mentioned, and Tristan says, “Which king?” He’s so completely lost in this potion-infused bliss of the love with Isolde that he’s forgotten who the king is, who is his uncle.

我一直很喜欢第一幕结尾时提到马克国王的那一刻，特里斯坦说：“哪位国王？”他完全沉浸在与伊索尔德的爱情中，忘记了谁是国王，谁是他的叔叔。

And the whole idea is, he’s bringing Isolde to his uncle so that he can marry her.

整个想法是，他要把伊索尔德带到他叔叔那里，这样他就可以娶她。

And he’s just so out of it that he asks, “Which king?” It’s a moment of borderline humor in Wagner.

他实在太不自在了，于是问道：“哪位国王？”这是瓦格纳的边缘幽默时刻。

But no, he’s not the composer you go to for laughs and light moments by any means.

但不，无论如何，他都不是你为了欢笑和轻松时刻而去找的作曲家。

People talk about the Wagnerian in rock.

人们谈论摇滚乐中的瓦格纳风格。

This is a very loose understanding of what it means to be Wagnerian.

这是对瓦格纳式的含义的非常松散的理解。

It just means grand and heavy and pounding and enormous.

它只是意味着宏伟、沉重、震撼和巨大。

And of course, that’s only one side of Wagner’s aesthetic, but it’s a very well-known side — the “Ride of the Valkyries,” the “Entry of the Gods,” “Siegfried’s Funeral Music” — these just very powerful, heavy-hitting moments in Wagner.

当然，这只是瓦格纳美学的一方面，但却是非常著名的一方面——《女武神的骑行》、《众神降临》、《齐格弗里德的葬礼音乐》——这些都是瓦格纳作品中非常有力、震撼的时刻。

So there’s always been this kind of rumor, just a hint of Wagnerian in heavy metal, and I think going back to Led Zeppelin and their fascination with The Lord of the Rings and Tolkien brings them into the zone of the Wagnerian, the hammer of the gods and so on.

所以一直有这样的谣言，只是重金属中的瓦格纳风格的暗示，我认为回到齐柏林飞船和他们对指环王和托尔金的迷恋将他们带入瓦格纳风格、众神之锤等领域。

So maybe that’s one area where you can talk about the Wagnerian in popular music.

所以也许这是你可以谈论流行音乐中瓦格纳风格的一个领域。

And if you think about what Wagner has become, it seems the problematic element in Wagner — it does somehow match up to the music in a way which is hard to escape.

如果你想想瓦格纳已经变成了什么，这似乎是《瓦格纳》中的问题元素——它确实以某种难以逃避的方式与音乐相匹配。

No one listens to Wagner and comes away saying, “Well dull, bourgeois life, as you find under democratic capitalism, is underrated.” No one comes away from Wagner saying, “I now have a greater appreciation for methodological individualism.” Right?

没有人听了瓦格纳的演讲后会说：“在民主资本主义下，无聊的资产阶级生活被低估了。”瓦格纳没有人会说：“我现在对方法论个人主义有了更大的欣赏。”正确的？

Of course, I knew nothing about anti-Semitism and Nazism and the connection with Hitler.

当然，我对反犹太主义和纳粹主义以及与希特勒的联系一无所知。

It was just purely a question of the sound.

这纯粹是声音的问题。

I found the sound disturbing and this seasick feeling of bobbing from one chord to another without clear demarcations.

我发现这种声音令人不安，而且这种从一个和弦到另一个而没有明确界限的和弦摆动的晕船感。

I just had this instinctual revulsion to it.

我只是对它有本能的厌恶。

When I started revisiting Wagner in college, it was always from the point of view of the intellectual problem of Wagner.

当我在大学里开始重新审视瓦格纳时，总是从瓦格纳的智力问题的角度出发。

I was, by that time, very conscious of Wagner’s anti-Semitism and the chain of influences that lead to Hitler, and I just saw him as this problem of intellectual history, this problem of cultural history.

那时，我非常清楚瓦格纳的反犹太主义和导致希特勒的一系列影响，我只是将他视为思想史的问题，文化史的问题。

I spent a lot of time studying the period of the fin de siècle, the culture and history of that period, especially in Europe, and Wagner was just this shadow, this lurking presence.

我花了很多时间研究世纪末时期，那个时期的文化和历史，特别是在欧洲，而瓦格纳就是这个影子，这个潜伏的存在。

It wasn’t until later, until I was in my 20s, that I began really seriously listening to Wagner as music, experiencing him as theater and beginning to have a less negative and, eventually, a much more enthusiastic or deeper engagement with music — but always with wariness, always with a consciousness of how this extraordinary figure, who really had it in him, I think, to become a cultural figure on the scale of Aeschylus, Dante, Shakespeare.

直到后来，直到我20多岁的时候，我才开始真正认真地聆听瓦格纳的音乐，体验他的戏剧，并开始对音乐不再那么消极，最终更加热情或更深入地参与音乐——但始终保持警惕，始终意识到这个非凡的人物，我认为他真正有能力成为埃斯库罗斯、但丁、莎士比亚那样的文化人物。

There’s a universalism.

有一种普遍主义。

There is this profound psychological understanding, coupled with this flair for painting on a huge canvas and manipulating mythic motifs.

这种深刻的心理理解，加上在巨大画布上绘画和操纵神话主题的天赋。

He had this extraordinary combination of creative qualities — the ability to compose, to create the text for his operas, his skills as a theater designer.

他具有非凡的创造力——作曲、创作歌剧文本的能力，以及作为戏剧设计师的技能。

He essentially designed the space of Bayreuth, which was revolutionary, in the late 19th century as a director of theater, as a theorist.

他本质上设计了拜罗伊特的空间，这在 19 世纪末是革命性的，作为戏剧导演和理论家。

Just a very singular, almost unprecedented, unsurpassed collection of qualities, fusion of qualities.

这只是一个非常独特的、几乎前所未有的、无与伦比的品质集合、品质融合。

But —

但是——

But I think that, in a weird way, enriches the experience for me, to be conscious of all this darkness.

但我认为，以一种奇怪的方式，丰富了我的经历，让我意识到所有这些黑暗。

It takes this body of work out of the realm of the ideal — this idea that music just lifts us up and takes us into this other world for a little while, and we’re entertained or led into this sublime sphere, and then we come back to reality.

它将这部作品带出了理想的境界——音乐只是让我们振奋，带我们进入另一个世界一段时间，我们被娱乐或带入这个崇高的领域，然后我们回到现实。

With Wagner, you never leave reality, and everything sublime and magnificent and moving in Wagner is inseparable from this corruption, this darkness, this evil.

和瓦格纳在一起，你永远不会离开现实，瓦格纳身上的一切崇高、壮丽、动人，都离不开这种腐败、这种黑暗、这种邪恶。

And I think that makes him a very human, unfortunately, exemplary human phenomenon, where the greatness and the darkness are all mixed together because that’s who we are as a species.

不幸的是，我认为这使他成为一个非常人性化的人类现象典范，伟大与黑暗混合在一起，因为这就是我们作为一个物种的本质。

And Wagner really exemplifies our species, in some ways, in terms of this mixing together of creative and destructive energies all at once, and you can never separate them — if that’s not too drastic.

瓦格纳在某种程度上确实体现了我们这个物种，即创造性和破坏性能量同时混合在一起，你永远无法将它们分开 ——如果这不是太激烈的话。

COWEN: Maybe it’s our enthusiasm itself for Wagner that we should worry about.

考恩：也许我们应该担心的是我们对瓦格纳的热情本身。

In your book, you mention, of course, Apocalypse Now — Francis Ford Coppola’s use of the music from Die Walküre when the helicopters are bombing the countryside, and there’s some combination of terror and beauty in the music that does make that a thrilling scene.

当然，在你的书中，你提到了《现代启示录》——弗朗西斯·福特·科波拉在直升飞机轰炸乡村时使用了《女武神》中的音乐，音乐中恐怖与美妙的结合确实使这一场景变得惊心动魄。

Shouldn’t we be repulsed by our very attraction to Wagner?

难道我们不应该因为对瓦格纳的吸引力而感到排斥吗？

And thus, we’re always wanting to keep it at a distance.

因此，我们总是想与它保持距离。

Maybe we listen to it two or three times a year just to remind ourselves of why we don’t treat it as we would Beethoven or Mozart, who were classical liberals, very human, very vulnerable figures, had a strong sense of humor.

也许我们每年听两三遍，只是为了提醒自己为什么我们不像贝多芬或莫扎特那样对待它，他们是古典自由主义者，非常人性化，非常脆弱的人物，有很强的幽默感。

And the whole tradition of Wagner’s descendants, and how they connected with Hitler and the Nazis — shouldn’t we keep it at a very real distance from ourselves, but periodically pull it out of the drawer to remind ourselves why we’re attracted and then run away as fast as we can?

还有瓦格纳后裔的整个传统，以及他们与希特勒和纳粹的联系——我们难道不应该与自己保持非常真实的距离，而是定期从抽屉里把它拉出来，提醒自己为什么我们被吸引，然后尽快逃跑吗？

What is at work in ways that I don’t think we’re fully conscious of, or we haven’t analyzed enough, is all of this American popular culture that we think of as innately good and pure and innocent.

我认为我们没有完全意识到，或者我们还没有进行足够的分析，这些我们认为天生善良、纯洁无邪的美国流行文化正在发挥作用。

It’s our music.

这是我们的音乐。

It’s music from the people, and yet it is unquestionably mixed up with American history and present-day American politics.

这是来自人民的音乐，但毫无疑问它与美国历史和当今的美国政治混合在一起。

Wagner isn’t to blame for any of this.

瓦格纳不应为这一切负责。

And just because classical music no longer has anything like the role that it once had on the world stage in culture today, I just don’t think you’re going to see some kind of new Hitler arising, enthused by Wagner and unleashing terror on the world.

正因为古典音乐不再像它曾经在当今世界文化舞台上所扮演的角色一样，我认为你不会看到某种新的希特勒崛起，受到瓦格纳的热情，并向世界释放恐怖。

So I think we can go too far in demonizing Wagner.

所以我认为我们在妖魔化瓦格纳方面走得太远了。

I think it’s a mistake to say that Beethoven and Mozart and Bach were all these wonderful, pure, liberal, humanist figures, and Wagner was this evil, irrational, protofascist, nationalist anti-Semite.

我认为说贝多芬、莫扎特和巴赫都是这些美妙的、纯洁的、自由主义的、人文主义的人物，而瓦格纳是邪恶的、非理性的、原始法西斯主义的、民族主义的反犹太主义者，这是错误的。

The Magic Flute by Mozart is unambiguously racist in a way that no work by Wagner is because Jews are not present explicitly in any of Wagner’s operas.

莫扎特的《魔笛》带有明显的种族主义色彩，而瓦格纳的任何一部作品都没有，因为瓦格纳的任何一部歌剧中都没有明确出现犹太人。

It’s theorized that there are stereotypes at work, but there’s no one labeled a Jew in Wagner.

从理论上讲，工作中存在刻板印象，但瓦格纳的作品中没有人被贴上犹太人的标签。

There are no Black people in Wagner.

瓦格纳里没有黑人。

There is this atrocious stereotype of Monostatos in The Magic Flute.

《魔笛》中对莫诺斯塔托斯有一种残暴的刻板印象。

I think that is a problem to be conscious of.

我认为这是一个需要意识到的问题。

Beethoven was a misogynist, and so many of these composers were misogynist.

贝多芬是一位厌恶女性的人，而这些作曲家中有很多都是厌恶女性的。

Wagner had a lot of bad qualities, but he was not the most evil person who ever lived.

瓦格纳有很多不好的品质，但他并不是有史以来最邪恶的人。

And so I think, again, to create this black and white where these composers, on the one hand, are pure and innocent, and Wagner is infused with evil is a mistake.

所以我再次认为，创造出这样的黑与白，一方面这些作曲家是纯洁无罪的，而瓦格纳则充满了邪恶，这是一个错误。

Wagner teaches us not to idealize Wagner in that way.

瓦格纳教导我们不要以这种方式理想化瓦格纳。

But above all, it’s just an incredible cast.

但最重要的是，这是一个令人难以置信的演员阵容。

Astrid Varnay is my favorite Brünnhilde, and she just sings splendidly in that recording.

阿斯特丽德·瓦内 (Astrid Varnay) 是我最喜欢的布伦希尔德 (Brünnhilde)，她在那张录音中唱得非常出色。

Hans Hotter sang Wotan magnificently in any number of recordings.

汉斯·霍特 (Hans Hotter) 在许多唱片中都精彩地演唱了沃坦 (Wotan)。

Somehow, there he’s at least as good as he ever was, if not better.

不知何故，他至少和以前一样好，甚至更好。

It just feels so of a piece.

感觉就像一块。

It was recorded for release, and then this recording never came out, so it sounds very good for its time.

它是为了发行而录制的，然后这张唱片从未发行过，所以在当时听起来非常好。

But you could really go to — there’s also 1953 — pretty much the same cast with Clemens Krauss conducting.

但你真的可以去看 —— 还有《1953》—— 几乎是同样的演员阵容，由克莱门斯·克劳斯指挥。

Krauss is probably a greater conductor, maybe makes more out of certain expressive moments, and so that has much to recommend it, as well.

克劳斯可能是一位更出色的指挥家，也许可以从某些富有表现力的时刻中做出更多的贡献，因此这也有很多值得推荐的地方。

The one recording that I don’t like is Georg Solti, and this is the classic.

我不喜欢的一张唱片是乔治·索尔蒂（Georg Solti），这是经典之作。

This is the first complete studio Ring.

这是第一个完整的工作室戒指。

It was a great feat of recording for its time in terms of the use of stereo, but Solti hammers too hard.

就立体声的使用而言，这是当时录音的一项伟大壮举，但索尔蒂用力过猛。

It’s always overbearing.

总是很霸道。

It’s an unnecessarily brutal edge.

这是一种不必要的残酷边缘。

And not coincidentally, it’s the Solti recording of “Ride of the Valkyries” that you hear in Apocalypse Now because that’s just the most aggressively hard-hitting one, and it goes with this spectacle of masculine aggression.

并非巧合的是，你在《现代启示录》中听到的正是索尔蒂录制的《女武神的骑行》，因为那是最具攻击性的、最具有攻击性的一张，而且它与这种男性攻击性的景象相得益彰。

The great irony of that scene, of course — and there’s so many other usages of “Ride of the Valkyries” — is it’s all men.

当然，这个场景的最大讽刺之处在于——而且《女武神的骑行》还有很多其他用法——全都是男人。

It’s male soldiers exalting in their lust for destruction.

这是男性士兵们高涨的破坏欲望。

The scene in Die Walküre is all about women.

《女武神》中的场景都是关于女性的。

It’s all about these unusually powerful women.

这一切都与这些异常强大的女性有关。

At the turn of the last century, as I talk about in the book, Brünnhilde and the other Valkyries became feminist icons to some extent.

上世纪之交，正如我在书中谈到的，布伦希尔德和其他女武神在某种程度上成为了女权主义的偶像。

The culture of those days didn’t offer so many strong female archetypes, and Wagner certainly did.

那个时代的文化并没有提供如此多的强势女性原型，而瓦格纳当然做到了。

So there’s a number of models that define plays, other works, paintings, and visual arts where that female power of the Valkyries is celebrated, and it was inspiring for some women of the period.

因此，有许多模型定义了戏剧、其他作品、绘画和视觉艺术，其中颂扬了瓦尔基里的女性力量，这对那个时期的一些女性来说是鼓舞人心的。

So that’s maybe an irony that Coppola was conscious of as he put together that scene.

所以这可能是科波拉在整理那个场景时意识到的一个讽刺。

Who knows?

谁知道？

Maybe he would have done it brilliantly, but I’m just not the biggest enthusiast of his work in general.

也许他会做得很出色，但总的来说，我并不是他作品的最大爱好者。

There’s all kinds of problems with Lars von Trier because of his attitudes on various subjects, so it probably wouldn’t have been the ideal choice for Bayreuth at the moment.

由于拉斯·冯·特里尔对各种主题的态度，他存在各种各样的问题，因此目前对于拜罗伊特来说，这可能不是理想的选择。

But I just absolutely love Touch of Evil, taking this rather seamy, sleazy genre picture and investing so much weirdness and darkness and slyness and menace into it — I think it’s an astonishing achievement.

但我绝对喜欢《历劫佳人》，在这部相当阴暗、肮脏的类型片中投入了如此多的怪异、黑暗、狡猾和威胁 —— 我认为这是一项惊人的成就。

I get this visceral pleasure out of watching it every moment.

我每时每刻都从观看它中获得这种发自内心的快乐。

It’s wildly entertaining and also, I think, rather deep in terms of how it talks about power and his character, the policeman who frames the guilty man.

它非常有趣，而且我认为，它在如何谈论权力和他的性格（陷害有罪者的警察）方面相当深入。

It’s a wonderfully complex problem that it poses for the audience.

这是一个给观众带来的极其复杂的问题。

And Liszt had every right to do what he wanted with Wagner, because Wagner took from him and Liszt also took from Wagner.

李斯特完全有权利对瓦格纳做他想做的事，因为瓦格纳从他那里得到了东西，李斯特也从瓦格纳那里得到了东西。

They had a very complex relationship.

他们的关系非常复杂。

There was a great deal of mutual borrowing that went on.

存在大量的相互借贷。

So when he arranges Parsifal, he is, to some degree, arranging a couple of his own ideas as Wagner appropriated them, and taking them back.

因此，当他安排《帕西法尔》时，在某种程度上，他是在安排瓦格纳挪用的一些自己的想法，然后收回它们。

So that’s a wonderfully rich relationship there.

所以这是一种非常丰富的关系。

On COVID-19’s impact on live music

关于 COVID-19 对现场音乐的影响

So some days, I’m very worried.

所以有些天，我很担心。

Other days, I feel it could be more or less total recovery, and perhaps five to seven years from now, it will just be this strange nightmare that we all went through before going back to normal.

其他日子，我觉得这可能或多或少完全康复，也许五到七年后，这将只是我们在恢复正常之前经历的这场奇怪的噩梦。

But classical music — it’s going to be the very last to come back, along with, really, the other performing arts forms.

但古典音乐——实际上，它会和其他表演艺术形式一起最后回归。

It’s an art form that subsists on crowding people into an indoor space and then having to crowd people onstage for a certain period of time.

这是一种艺术形式，其生存方式是将人们挤进室内空间，然后在一段时间内将人们挤到舞台上。

Even if the medical question is resolved, even if there is a vaccine, there’ll still be a psychological block against people coming back.

即使医疗问题得到解决，即使有疫苗，人们回来时仍然会有心理障碍。

There’ll be a fear of crowding into spaces.

人们会害怕挤进空间。

So I am fearful of what’s going to happen, especially to the bigger institutions.

所以我担心将会发生什么，尤其是对于更大的机构。

I think the smaller ones can be more resourceful and more spontaneous in terms of how they react, and so they might recover more quickly in terms of chamber music and solo recitalists.

我认为较小的人在反应方面可能更足智多谋、更自发，因此他们在室内乐和独奏演奏方面可能会恢复得更快。

That end of the business should be okay.

生意的那一端应该没问题。

But it’s also the artists.

但这也是艺术家。

There’s thousands of artists who aren’t being paid, and some of them are just going to give up and get other jobs, even extremely talented ones, and that also may be a tragedy.

有成千上万的艺术家没有得到报酬，其中一些人干脆放弃并找到其他工作，即使是非常有才华的艺术家，这也可能是一场悲剧。

And when you look at the difference of the situation in Europe, where artists who are out of work have nothing to worry about.

当你看看欧洲情况的不同时，失业的艺术家没有什么可担心的。

They’re being taken care of financially.

他们在经济上受到照顾。

They have health plans they can afford.

他们有自己负担得起的健康计划。

They’re able to wait it out.

他们能够等待。

Here, people aren’t going to be able to wait it out, and they’re just going to give up and do something different.

在这里，人们无法等待，他们只会放弃并做一些不同的事情。

So it’ll be a dark period.

所以这将是一个黑暗时期。

I just don’t know exactly what form it’ll take, but things will be very different.

我只是不知道具体会采取什么形式，但事情会非常不同。

There could be ways in which there will be a healthy effect in the end if classical music becomes more local in focus.

如果古典音乐变得更加本地化，​​最终可能会产生健康的效果。

For decades, we’ve had this culture of constant jet-setting, conductors zipping around from continent to continent, singers zipping around, orchestras touring, probably unnecessarily.

几十年来，我们一直有这种不断飞来飞去的文化，指挥家从一个大陆飞奔到另一个大陆，歌手飞奔，管弦乐队巡回演出，这可能是不必要的。

Just because of the fear of travel at this moment and other questions about the wastefulness of this kind of travel, that may be cut back.

仅仅因为此刻对旅行的恐惧以及对这种旅行是否浪费的其他疑问，可能会减少这种旅行。

And I think that could be a very healthy thing if conductors just spent more of their time with their orchestra that they are the music director of instead of feeling the need to guest conduct in 10 other places during a given season because they’re being paid usually pretty hefty sums of money, $800,000 or a million dollars or more.

我认为，如果指挥家能把更多的时间花在自己担任音乐总监的管弦乐队上，而不是因为他们的薪水通常相当高，80万美元或100万美元或更多，而需要在一个特定的演出季节到其他10个地方客座指挥，那么这可能是一件非常健康的事情。

Why not really concentrate your career in one place, work on building ties to the community immediately around you, and forget about this global marketplace?

为什么不真正将您的职业生涯集中在一个地方，致力于与您周围的社区建立联系，而忘记这个全球市场呢？

That end of the business will be much more difficult to negotiate.

这方面的谈判将更加困难。

That kind of thing is nonsense to me because certain of these pieces — they cry out for .

这类事情对我来说是无稽之谈，因为其中某些作品 - 是他们迫切需要的。

.

。

.

。

The end of the first movement of the Emperor Concerto — it just sounds weird not to have applause because Beethoven is working very hard to make the audience burst into applause.

《皇帝协奏曲》第一乐章的结尾——没有掌声听起来很奇怪，因为贝多芬很努力地让观众爆发出掌声。

Even more with Tchaikovsky’s First Piano Concerto.

柴可夫斯基的第一钢琴协奏曲更是如此。

So I think these rules could be loosened, but at the same time, there’s very good reason why audiences generally are quieter at classical performances because of the dynamic extremes.

所以我认为这些规则可以放松，但与此同时，由于动态的极端，观众通常在古典表演中更加安静，这是有充分理由的。

If people are making noise at the beginning of Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony, you’re not going to hear this whispery, this ethereal tremolo.

如果人们在贝多芬第九交响曲的开头发出噪音，你就不会听到这种低语、这种空灵的颤音。

Of course, same thing with the beginning of Wagner’s Ring Cycle, which begins almost subliminally with this deep E-flat and the double basses.

当然，瓦格纳的《Ring Cycle》的开头也是如此，它几乎是下意识地以深沉的降E调和低音提琴开始的。

The tradition of Bayreuth is to become completely silent before that happens.

拜罗伊特的传统是在此之前保持完全沉默。

For a full minute or so, there’s this total silence in the opera house.

整整一分钟左右，歌剧院里一片寂静。

It’s a wonderful effect to be able to really experience music emerging out of nothing, emerging out of silence.

能够真正体验音乐从无到有、从寂静中出现，这是一种美妙的效果。

It’s very powerful.

它非常强大。

So there’s good reason for some of these rules, and I think, ultimately, it should be on a case-to-case basis.

因此，其中一些规则是有充分理由的，而且我认为最终应该根据具体情况而定。

We have a thousand-year tradition in classical music with very different kinds of music, with very different social intentions and functions, so there should never be a hard-and-fast rule.

我们在古典音乐方面拥有一千年的传统，音乐种类非常不同，具有非常不同的社会意图和功能，因此永远不应该有一个硬性规定。

Now, in terms of adventurousness — that’s a slightly different thing.

现在，就冒险精神而言，情况略有不同。

Those same Austrian and German audiences may be quite resistant to 20th-century music and contemporary music because they love and know Brahms so well.

这些奥地利和德国观众可能对 20 世纪音乐和当代音乐相当抵触，因为他们非常喜爱并了解勃拉姆斯。

That doesn’t prepare them so well for something different and new.

这并不能让他们为不同的、新的事物做好充分的准备。

One of the most adventurous audiences I’ve ever encountered is at the Ojai Festival in Southern California, northwest of Los Angeles.

我遇到过的最富有冒险精神的观众之一是在洛杉矶西北部南加州的奥哈伊音乐节。

That’s a festival that goes back decades in terms of its commitment to new music — quite adventurous, often avant-garde music.

这个节日对新音乐的承诺可以追溯到几十年前——相当冒险、往往是前卫的音乐。

Stravinsky was there.

斯特拉文斯基也在场。

Boulez went many times.

布列兹去了很多次。

So the attitude there is almost the complete opposite of what you normally encounter with a classical-music audience, where the more complex and the more difficult it is, the more excited people seem to get.

因此，那里的态度几乎与你通常遇到的古典音乐观众完全相反，越复杂、越困难，人们似乎就越兴奋。

I had this wonderful experience of sitting in the audience once a few years ago at Ojai.

几年前，我在 Ojai 曾有过一次坐在观众席上的美妙经历。

There was a piece.

有一块。

It was quite tonal and repetitive and minimalist, and I think an average audience would have found it quite pleasant to listen to.

它的音调非常重复且极简，我认为普通听众会觉得听起来很愉快。

It was in no way dissonant or modernistic.

它绝不是不和谐的或现代主义的。

And afterward, the older couple sitting next to me said, “Oh, that was…”

后来，坐在我旁边的那对老夫妇说：“哦，那是……”

And then there was a piece by Pierre Boulez right after that, and what that older couple said was, “Ah, finally some real music.” They didn’t like the tonal, easy music; they were waiting for the Boulez.

紧接着是皮埃尔·布列兹的一首曲子，那对老夫妇说的是，“啊，终于有真正的音乐了。”他们不喜欢音调轻松的音乐；他们正在等待布列兹。

So it varies very much from place to place, and the stereotype of the classical audience is that they’re not going to be adventurous.

因此，各地的情况差异很大，古典观众的刻板印象是他们不会冒险。

They always want the tried and true.

他们总是想要经过考验的、真实的。

But over time, I think, when an institution, a festival really shows commitment to this repertoire, they can change the audience’s mind.

但随着时间的推移，我认为，当一个机构、一个节日真正表现出对这个剧目的承诺时，他们可以改变观众的想法。

And that’s also what happened with the Los Angeles Philharmonic under Esa-Pekka Salonen.

埃萨-佩卡·萨洛宁 (Esa-Pekka Salonen) 领导下的洛杉矶爱乐乐团也遇到了同样的情况。

It happened to some extent in Berlin with Simon Rattle and various other places.

这在某种程度上发生在柏林的西蒙·拉特和其他许多地方。

And so, it’s not a lost cause in terms of converting audiences to the new and different.

因此，就将观众转向新的和不同的事物而言，这并不是一个失败的事业。

That’s always been a component of the American orchestral audience or the opera audience, but especially the orchestral audience in terms of these orchestras that have become real civic institutions.

这一直是美国管弦乐观众或歌剧观众的组成部分，尤其是那些已经成为真正的公民机构的管弦乐团的观众。

And certain families — wealthier families — in the city have supported them for generations.

而城里的某些家庭 ——“富裕家庭”——世世代代供养着他们。

And it’s just there.

它就在那里。

It’s a fixture, and people show up without necessarily being deeply involved in it, but you need those people.

这是一种固定的活动，人们的出现不一定会深入参与其中，但你需要这些人。

You can’t have an audience —

你不可能有观众——

On the top composers and conductors

顶级作曲家和指挥家

So what is it about conducting that appears to defy the laws of nature, that you just keep on going and you’re amazing?

那么，什么是看似违背自然法则的行为，让你继续前进，就很了不起呢？

When you would think, “Well, these individuals would peak at age 62.”

当你想：“嗯，这些人的顶峰年龄是 62 岁。”

I think there are two sides to this.

我认为这有两个方面。

On the one side, just in terms of conducting and its physical demands and its mental demands — hard to verify, but there seems to be something in terms of the intensity of this mental activity of memorizing scores, of this particular mode of upper-body exercise — it does seem to encourage longevity, and it does seem to keep people sharp in some way.

一方面，仅就指挥及其身体要求和精神要求而言——很难验证，但从记忆乐谱的精神活动强度、这种特殊的上半身锻炼方式来看，似乎确实有利于长寿，而且似乎确实在某种程度上使人保持敏锐。

I’m completely beyond my realm of knowledge in terms of the medical side of this, but just think anecdotally — it looks as though something like that is happening.

就医学方面而言，我完全超出了我的知识范围，但只是想一想  - 看起来好像类似的事情正在发生。

So there’s that, but at the same time, conducting is so mysterious in terms of what is actually happening between the conductor and the orchestra.

就是这样，但与此同时，就指挥和乐团之间实际发生的事情而言，指挥是如此神秘。

There are explicit messages being sent.

正在发送明确的消息。

There’re instructions being given, but there’s also this slightly mystical side to it, where once you get to a figure like Klemperer, or today, Bernard Haitink, who just retired, or Herbert Blomstedt, who is incredibly vital and active in his 90s.

虽然有指示，但也有一点神秘的一面，一旦你遇到像克伦佩勒这样的人物，或者今天的刚刚退休的伯纳德·海丁克，或者 90 多岁的赫伯特·布隆斯泰特，他的活力和活跃程度令人难以置信。

Blomstedt — someone like this can just skip all the preliminaries and just go for fine-tuning these points, and everyone plays better because they’re in the presence of this celebrated, legendary older musician.

Blomstedt ——像这样的人可以跳过所有的预赛，直接对这些点进行微调，每个人都会演奏得更好，因为他们有这位著名的、传奇的老音乐家在场。

It’s almost as if they don’t even need to do anything anymore.

就好像他们甚至不需要再做任何事情了。

They do, of course.

当然，他们确实这么做了。

They are working very hard, and Blomstedt is delivering very particular instructions to the orchestra.

他们工作非常努力，布洛姆施泰特正在向乐团发出非常具体的指示。

But there’s that psychological dimension.

但这是有心理层面的。

The musicians are excited to be having this opportunity, and they think this might be the last time, so they give something more.

音乐家们很高兴能有这个机会，他们认为这可能是最后一次，所以他们付出了更多的东西。

So that’s the mystery of conducting.

这就是指挥的奥秘。

I always think of that anecdote about Furtwängler — I think it was Walter Legge who told this story — watching the orchestra rehearse with a different conductor, and they were playing all right, nothing too inspired.

我总是想起富特文格勒的轶事——“我认为是沃尔特·莱格讲了这个故事”——看着管弦乐队与另一位指挥一起排练，他们演奏得很好，没有什么太有灵感的。

He’s looking straight ahead and looking at the orchestra, and suddenly something changes.

他直视前方，看着管弦乐队，突然有些东西发生了变化。

Suddenly the playing is electrified, transformed.

突然间，演奏变得充满电，发生了变化。

The conductor seems to have done nothing different.

售票员似乎没有做任何不同的事情。

And so, “What is going on?

所以，“这是怎么回事？

How did that change take place?”

这种变化是如何发生的？”

Then he happens to look over his shoulder.

然后他碰巧回头看了一眼。

Furtwängler is standing by the door, watching.

富特文格勒站在门口看着。

In the few minutes that he’s entered the hall and has been standing at the back, the orchestra noticed him there, and their playing changed completely.

在他进入大厅并站在后面的几分钟内，乐团注意到了他，他们的演奏完全改变了。

So that’s the weird, the slightly occult power that the conductors can have.

这就是指挥所拥有的奇怪的、略带神秘的力量。

Just their mere presence transforms the playing.

仅仅是他们的存在就改变了演奏方式。

And Feldman was a figure, of course, a very important pioneer himself, alongside Cage, but it goes back to these unearthly, otherworldly, atonal chords of Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern.

当然，费尔德曼是一个人物，他本人与凯奇一样是一位非常重要的先驱，但这可以追溯到勋伯格、伯格和韦伯恩这些超凡脱俗、超凡脱俗的无调性和弦。

That’s the fundamental vocabulary of Feldman’s music, but it’s totally different in terms of its emotional temperature.

这是费尔德曼音乐的基本词汇，但在情感温度上却完全不同。

The dynamic level in Feldman is always quiet.

费尔德曼的动态层次总是安静的。

Everything is spaced out, and these harmonies that can be prickly and alarming and unnerving in Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern and so much other modernist music of the 20th century — in Feldman, they become distant, and they acquire this eerie beauty.

一切都被间隔开来，这些和声在勋伯格、伯格和韦伯恩以及许多其他 20 世纪的现代主义音乐中可能令人刺痛、令人震惊和不安，但在费尔德曼的音乐中，它们变得遥远，并获得了这种怪异的美感。

It’s as if you can step way back from them and contemplate them as art objects.

就好像你可以远离它们，将它们视为艺术品。

And they become like .

他们变得像。

.

。

.

。

Of course, he loved Rothko’s paintings.

当然，他喜欢罗斯科的画作。

He knew Rothko very well.

他非常了解罗斯科。

He knew so many of these early abstract expressionist painters, but especially with Rothko — it has that misty, distant, unearthly quality, not at all assaultive, not at all aggressive, and it becomes this totally new world of radical beauty.

他认识很多早期的抽象表现主义画家，尤其是罗斯科——它具有那种朦胧、遥远、超凡脱俗的品质，一点也不具有攻击性，一点也不具有攻击性，它成为了一个充满激进美的全新世界。

From the moment I first heard his music, he just had an extraordinary effect on me, and I still find him one of the great originals in musical history — extraordinary, extraordinary composer.

从我第一次听到他的音乐的那一刻起，他就对我产生了非凡的影响，我仍然认为他是音乐史上最伟大的原创者之一——非凡、非凡的作曲家。

There’s a group of composers called Wandelweiser.

有一群作曲家叫 Wandelweiser。

They live in different countries, and they specialize in a very quiet, very spaced-out kind of aesthetic, and there’s an obvious, very strong influence from Feldman.

他们生活在不同的国家，专注于一种非常安静、非常疏远的审美，费尔德曼的影响显而易见，非常强烈。

Jürg Frey is a Swiss composer who just writes some of the most incredibly beautiful music around today — string quartets — and he more or less worships Feldman.

尤尔格·弗雷 (Jürg Frey) 是一位瑞士作曲家，他创作了一些当今最美妙的音乐——“弦乐四重奏”——他或多或少崇拜费尔德曼。

But Michael Pisaro is an American composer who is also of that school.

但迈克尔·皮萨罗是一位美国作曲家，也是该流派的。

It’s this aesthetic of radical quietude and separateness, I think is a very powerful one.

我认为这种彻底的安静和分离的美学是非常强大的。

And I think, particularly at this moment of frenzy and chaos, this music is quite appealing to go back to.

我认为，尤其是在这个疯狂和混乱的时刻，这种音乐非常有吸引力，值得回味。

The final segment of our chat is what I call the Alex Ross production function.

我们聊天的最后一部分是我所说的亚历克斯·罗斯生产函数。

And this has to do with you, a few questions about your history.

这与你有关，有几个关于你的历史的问题。

Did writing a thesis about James Joyce at Harvard at all influence your music writing and how you approach music?

在哈佛大学写一篇关于詹姆斯·乔伊斯的论文对你的音乐写作和你对待音乐的方式有影响吗？

Ulysses gave me a taste for a kind of sprawling, comprehensive, all-devouring .

《尤利西斯》让我尝到了一种庞大、全面、吞噬一切的感觉。

.

。

.

。

it’s not strict and spare and disciplined modernism.

它不是严格、节俭、有纪律的现代主义。

It’s the modernism of all-engulfing chaos.

这是吞噬一切的混乱的现代主义。

And in music, that happens to be a mode that I’m quite fond of, whether it’s the symphonies of Charles Ives or Bernd Alois Zimmermann or certain later 20th-century composers.

在音乐方面，这恰好是我非常喜欢的一种模式，无论是查尔斯·艾夫斯（Charles Ives）、贝恩德·阿洛伊斯·齐默尔曼（Bernd Alois Zimmermann）还是某些20世纪后期作曲家的交响曲。

So yeah, Ulysses, I think, influenced my listening and prepared me for unexpected and perhaps irrational juxtapositions of different styles.

所以，是的，我认为，《尤利西斯》影响了我的聆听，让我为不同风格的意想不到的、也许不合理的并置做好了准备。

I feel very lucky in that I have been able to pursue a lot of writing at the New Yorker which is not strictly musical, and I’ve been allowed to pursue this range of interests, which includes some natural sciences–type travelogue pieces in the last few years on Death Valley and the Bristlecone Pine Forest, as well as pieces on literature and history.

我感到非常幸运，因为我能够在《纽约客》上从事很多非严格意义上的音乐写作，并且我被允许追求一系列的兴趣，其中包括过去几年关于死亡谷和狐尾松森林的一些自然科学类型的游记文章，以及有关文学和历史的文章。

I think it makes my musical writing better.

我认为这让我的音乐写作变得更好。

I think it also makes a case for classical music.

我认为这也为古典音乐提供了理由。

If someone has read what I write about Dylan or Radiohead or the Bristlecone Pines and sees my name at the top of a piece about Mozart or Salieri or whoever, they might give me a chance, having read those other pieces.

如果有人读过我写的有关迪伦、Radiohead 或 Bristlecone Pines 的文章，并在一篇有关莫扎特、萨列里或其他人的文章的顶部看到我的名字，他们可能会给我一个机会，因为他们读过其他文章。

“Oh, this is the guy who wrote that interesting piece.

“哦，这就是写那篇有趣文章的人。

I don’t care about classical music, but I’ll give this a try anyway.”

我不关心古典音乐，但无论如何我都会尝试一下。”

So I think that helps me in an inevitable aspect of my role as a critic, which is not merely to be this objective, cold, detached commentator, but to some extent be an advocate, a face of the art form itself, and expanding its audience in my own little way.

所以我认为这对我作为批评家角色的一个不可避免的方面有帮助，这不仅仅是客观、冷酷、超然的评论员，而​​且在某种程度上成为艺术形式本身的倡导者、代表，并以我自己的小方式扩大其受众。

I think that helps with that mission.

我认为这有助于完成这一使命。

I’m actually working on Rheingold right now.

事实上我现在正在制作《莱茵的黄金》。

I’m listening to Karajan’s Ring Cycle, which has never been one of my favorites, but I’m revisiting it.

我正在听卡拉扬的《Ring Cycle》，它从来都不是我的最爱之一，但我正在重新审视它。

And actually, his live Rheingold in 1951 from Bayreuth is amazing.

事实上，他 1951 年在拜罗伊特现场演奏的《莱茵黄金》真是太棒了。

It’s a great recording.

这是一个很棒的录音。

He connected that one year in Bayreuth and then never came back because he was Karajan, and there were problems.

他在拜罗伊特呆了一年，然后就再也没有回来，因为他是卡拉扬，而且出现了问题。

But it’s a really vigorous and spiky and lively reading of Rheingold, which was always considered the scherzo of the Ring.

但这确实是对《莱茵黄金》的一次充满活力、尖锐而生动的解读，它一直被认为是《指环王》中的谐谑曲。

And he really brings out that quality, quite different from the later recordings, which are rather more polished and slightly overburnished in terms of the texture.

他确实展现了这种品质，与后来的录音截然不同，后者在质感方面更加精致，略显过度抛光。

It’s all incredibly beautiful, but not necessarily that dramatic.

这一切都非常美丽，但不一定那么戏剧化。

This Rheingold is really fiery and alive.

这首《莱茵黄金》真是火热而生机勃勃。

I never really listened to it before, and I was quite pleased to discover it.

我以前从未真正听过它，我很高兴发现它。

So anyway, more Wagner today.

不管怎样，今天更多的是瓦格纳。